:00:20. > :00:24.Tonight we've come to Inverness, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:24. > :00:27.On our panel in the Highlands the former leader of the Liberal
:00:27. > :00:31.Democrats, Charles Kennedy, the leader of the Labour Party in
:00:31. > :00:37.Scotland, Johann Lamont, the former Conservative Secretary of State for
:00:37. > :00:45.Scotland, Michael Forsyth, Daily Mail columnist Melanie Phillips, a
:00:46. > :00:55.member of Alex Salmond's SNP cabinet, Alex Neil, and the actor
:00:56. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:03.Alan Cumming. APPLAUSE Welcome to you all on the panel.
:01:03. > :01:07.There are six of you, so if you could not speak for too long in
:01:07. > :01:10.reply to questions, everybody will get a chance as well as our
:01:10. > :01:15.audience here, who are bursting to ask you things. The first question
:01:15. > :01:22.is from Matthew Davies. Have the Jubilee celebrations made us all
:01:22. > :01:26.feel more British, and damaged the campaign for independence? A good
:01:26. > :01:30.question. Charles Kennedy? Yes, I think they've certainly engendered
:01:30. > :01:33.more of a feeling of Britishness. I don't think that necessarily feeds
:01:33. > :01:38.through to damaging the campaign over Scottish independence. We are
:01:38. > :01:42.not going to decide that one for, what, two years plus, but I did
:01:42. > :01:49.think it was interesting, although within Scotland, I've been
:01:49. > :01:53.travelling around a lot this past week, there's a more visibly more
:01:53. > :01:57.subdued royal presence or Jubilee presence, bunting, Union Jacks,
:01:57. > :02:01.flags and the rest of it. Two things struck me as interesting
:02:01. > :02:05.looking at the London scenes on the weekend, on the days when you could
:02:05. > :02:12.see it clearly! All the people in the Mall, lots of Union Jacks but
:02:12. > :02:16.lots of Scottish presence as well. If you look at the sales of the UK
:02:16. > :02:22.newspaper titles within Scotland, particularly after Sunday's
:02:22. > :02:28.flotilla and the rest of it, they were significantly up compared with
:02:28. > :02:32.the normal sale within Scotland. So that means a lots of Scots were
:02:32. > :02:35.buying them for the Jubilee editions they were producing.
:02:35. > :02:39.There's been a greater sense in Scotland. I don't think it is
:02:39. > :02:45.running at the rate that it is south of the border and in two
:02:45. > :02:47.years time, well, I think it is not really worth gazing into that
:02:48. > :02:51.crystal ball behind the question is the idea that independence for
:02:51. > :02:55.Scotland and the concept of Britishness are opposed to each
:02:55. > :03:01.other. You don't think that's right? I don't, but I'm a
:03:01. > :03:07.federalist. What would I put on my tombstone to describe myself? I
:03:07. > :03:12.would put a Highlander first, a Scot second, UK citizenship third,
:03:12. > :03:17.and I'm comfortable being one who always embraces the most unpopular
:03:17. > :03:20.of causes, big a citizen of the European Union. I don't find a
:03:20. > :03:26.contradiction in that sense of multi-layered identity and I don't
:03:26. > :03:35.think most Scots do. I don't think the English should either for that
:03:35. > :03:39.matter. APPLAUSE Alan Cumming? I think that there's a sort of a
:03:39. > :03:43.smokescreen about this whole issue about what it means to be British
:03:43. > :03:46.in terms of the independence question, because after
:03:46. > :03:50.independence, and I do support it and I hope that it happens, after
:03:50. > :03:55.that we'll still be British. We'll still be a part of the British
:03:55. > :04:00.Isles. I'm Scottish and I'm British. I'm still going to be Scottish and
:04:00. > :04:04.British after independence. The notion of Britishness is a symbol.
:04:04. > :04:08.This weekend people have felt good being here, celebrating the Queen
:04:08. > :04:10.and all she does. I don't think that's what the independence
:04:11. > :04:14.movement is about. It is about taking political power from
:04:14. > :04:20.Westminster and bring it back to Scotland so that people in Scotland
:04:20. > :04:25.can rule themselves. You, sair, you are shaking your head. I disagree
:04:25. > :04:30.entirely on that point. There's a certain amount of xenophobia
:04:30. > :04:35.involved in Alex Salmond's plans. absolutely disagree with you.
:04:35. > :04:42.thing chat has shot himself in the foot more than that is the launch,
:04:42. > :04:46.where he wheeled out a lot of Hollywood stars, yourself included,
:04:46. > :04:50.who don't pay tax in this country. First of all I do pay tax in this
:04:50. > :04:56.country. I'm a resident of this country. I was born in Scotland, my
:04:56. > :05:00.family livers here, I work here. All of that aside I'm a human being
:05:00. > :05:04.with an opinion. David Cameron and Nick Clegg, they can't vote in the
:05:04. > :05:11.referendum but they still have strong opinions about it don't
:05:11. > :05:16.they? Absolutely. APPLAUSE OK. Michael Forsyth? First of all I
:05:16. > :05:20.thought the weekend was absolutely terrific. I thought, I thought the
:05:20. > :05:24.Prince of Wales summed it up brilliantly when he said it made us
:05:24. > :05:28.all proud to be British. Looking down the Mall at all these Union
:05:28. > :05:33.Flags I thought, is this the last time we are going to see red, white
:05:34. > :05:38.and blue on the Mall. That is what's at stake. The idea that you
:05:38. > :05:43.can still be British and break up Britain is ridiculous. I think in
:05:43. > :05:47.answer to the question, I think you have to make a distinction between
:05:47. > :05:50.nationalism and patriotism. Patriotism was on display big time
:05:50. > :06:00.this weekend. I think all of us were very much the better for it.
:06:00. > :06:03.APPLAUSE In certain parts of Glasgow, it
:06:03. > :06:10.certainly wouldn't have been appropriate to put the Union Jack
:06:10. > :06:14.and bunting up to celebrate being British. So from that point of view,
:06:14. > :06:18.the Scottish people I'm sure there's a lot of them did celebrate
:06:18. > :06:23.the Jubilee, but they didn't get bank holiday Monday off, so they
:06:23. > :06:30.had to work on Monday as well. It really wasn't much of a holiday or
:06:30. > :06:36.a Jubilee celebration for some Scottish people. OK. At Tesco in
:06:36. > :06:41.and this is Tesco Town basically, you couldn't buy any Union Jack
:06:42. > :06:46.buntsing in the large oness or others in the ding wall area.
:06:46. > :06:52.Inverness was a bunting-free zone was it? Yes. In Edinburgh the
:06:52. > :06:56.council was giving away bunting. This whole issue isn't about
:06:56. > :07:00.bunting or even flags. Flag rgs sim bols. It is great to celebrate and
:07:00. > :07:03.everyone likes having a party and going on the streets and talking to
:07:03. > :07:08.your neighbours. That is great, but that isn't what the independence
:07:08. > :07:13.issue is about. We are not talking about the independence issue.
:07:13. > :07:18.said this would be the last time we would see the Union Jack on the
:07:18. > :07:21.Mall. That's true. You think everyone is going to throw their
:07:21. > :07:27.Union Jacks away? Of course, Scotland will be an independent
:07:27. > :07:31.country. You think the people in the United Kingdom will throw their
:07:31. > :07:35.Union Jacks away? I thought the celebrations were great fun. You
:07:35. > :07:39.see people waving flags but it is not serious. It is people enjoying
:07:39. > :07:42.themselves. The idea that that will determine whether we separate
:07:42. > :07:47.ourselves from the rest of the United Kingdom is not true. What it
:07:47. > :07:51.said to me was folk across the whole of the United Kingdom has an
:07:51. > :07:56.awful lot in common. We have a common history. We are not one
:07:56. > :08:00.against the other. It is not this idea that people are trying to do
:08:00. > :08:03.the Scots down. It was very much a sense of we are having a party, we
:08:04. > :08:08.all do it much the same way and it was good. But the political debate,
:08:08. > :08:13.the argument about the choice people will have will be about much
:08:13. > :08:17.more serious issues. The key issue is you can't pretend both, this is
:08:17. > :08:21.the most exciting and important thing which happens in 300 years
:08:21. > :08:30.when we get the vote and that nothing will change. It can't be
:08:30. > :08:34.both of these at the same time. Melanie Phillips? The question is
:08:34. > :08:37.the the celebration make people feel more British and therefore
:08:37. > :08:41.damage the campaign for independence. Is that a link you
:08:41. > :08:46.would make, that the two are incompatible? I would make that
:08:46. > :08:50.link, yes. I think that the Jubilee celebrations were probably Alex
:08:50. > :08:56.Salmond's worst nightmare. People coming together in a spirit of joy
:08:56. > :09:02.and harmony to celebrate their country. As a shared experience.
:09:02. > :09:08.The thing about being British, why people were so ecstatic that
:09:08. > :09:13.weekend, is so many years patriotism has been a dirty word,
:09:13. > :09:18.particularly when it comes to England. Scottish, Welsh and Irish
:09:18. > :09:22.patriotism or nationalism is fine but English patriotism is not. But
:09:22. > :09:26.put that to one side. People came together to support and endorse the
:09:26. > :09:31.Queen in that way because people understand that what the Queen
:09:31. > :09:34.stands for is unity not division. What the Queen stands for is we can
:09:34. > :09:39.all come together and celebrate what we have in common. It seems to
:09:39. > :09:44.me that independence is the ultimate go divisive activity. I
:09:44. > :09:49.fully understand Scotland is a proud nation with a specific and
:09:49. > :09:54.discredit and distinct history and law and culture. We are all the
:09:54. > :09:57.richer for it. What Scotland has brought to the table historically
:09:57. > :10:01.in the United Kingdom has enriched the United Kingdom. If Scotland
:10:01. > :10:05.were to leave, in my view, the United Kingdom would be infinitely
:10:05. > :10:09.the poorer. But I'm very interested to hear Alan Cumming say that
:10:09. > :10:15.Scotland would still be British after independence. The United
:10:15. > :10:21.Kingdom would remain. It would remain the United Kingdom but of
:10:21. > :10:27.England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is England and
:10:27. > :10:31.Scotland. A number of people in the audience I want to bring in. Let me
:10:31. > :10:35.bring many our SNP representative here tonight, Alex Neil. I totally
:10:35. > :10:39.disagree with Melanie. First of all the Queen is the Queen of 16
:10:39. > :10:42.countries, including for example Australia. The fact that the
:10:42. > :10:47.Australian Prime Minister and Australia celebrated the Jubilee
:10:47. > :10:52.doesn't make them feel more or less British. They were just celebrating
:10:52. > :10:55.the Jubilee and 60 years of service the Jubilee and 60 years of service
:10:55. > :11:00.by the Queen. They were never part of the United Kingdom. The second
:11:00. > :11:03.point is the union of the crowns was 1603, 104 years before the
:11:03. > :11:07.union of theer Parliaments. What independence is about is the
:11:07. > :11:14.dissolution of the union of the Parliaments not the dissolution of
:11:14. > :11:19.the union of the crowns. APPLAUSE $$TRANSMIT. And when Scotland
:11:19. > :11:24.becomes independent, hopefully in 2016 The day after independence the
:11:24. > :11:27.Queen will be the Queen of Scots, as she has always been, as well as
:11:27. > :11:32.the Queen of England, and the Queen of Australia and the Queen of New
:11:32. > :11:35.Zealand. Let me say this. It's a very comparable situation we would
:11:35. > :11:40.find ourselves in this an independent Scotland to the Swedes
:11:40. > :11:44.and the Norwegians for example, both of which have monarchies, find
:11:44. > :11:50.themselves in. And that is they are Swedish and feel sweefrpblt they
:11:50. > :11:54.are Norwegian and feel Norwegian. But they are also Scandinavian and
:11:54. > :11:59.feel Scandinavian. After independence we will be Scottish,
:11:59. > :12:03.self-governing Scotland, but we will also have a British dimension
:12:03. > :12:08.as well. I think Charles Kennedy is right - you can feel, in my case
:12:08. > :12:14.I'm an Ayrshire man, I'm a Scot and I feel British and European as well.
:12:14. > :12:23.There is no contradiction whatsoever. Why make such an effort
:12:23. > :12:28.then? Why has the date slipped from 2014 to 2016? The referendum is in
:12:28. > :12:33.2014 but Independence Day will be 2016. I want to pick up on the
:12:33. > :12:38.point about xenophobia. It is dangerous, people get mixed up, I'm
:12:38. > :12:41.pro-independence, and people get mixed up with people who wish to be
:12:41. > :12:45.pro-independent seem to hate the English. It is not the case. It is
:12:45. > :12:51.not about hating anybody but wishing to make our own decisions
:12:51. > :12:57.in Scotland for the Scottish people. APPLAUSE The man in the pink shirt.
:12:57. > :13:01.It is plain here that the people have come out strongly it is not
:13:01. > :13:05.the politicians but the monarchy. The monarchy looked brilliant at
:13:05. > :13:15.the weekend. They bathed in glory while quite frankly the politicians
:13:15. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:20.looked a bit silly sometimes. APPLAUSE And Sir? The comment about
:13:20. > :13:25.xenophobia I find quite insulting. This has been used as a scare
:13:25. > :13:28.tactic for many years. The people of Scotland have grown up. They
:13:28. > :13:31.understand Scotland is not a xenophobic country. It is one of
:13:31. > :13:35.the most welcoming countries in the world and will continue to be so. I
:13:35. > :13:38.want to make a point about what Michael Forsyth said about it was
:13:38. > :13:42.the last opportunities to see the red, white and blue flags
:13:42. > :13:46.fluttering down the Mall. The Queen will continue as head of state in
:13:46. > :13:51.Scotland. Can you explain why the blue will come out of the flag?
:13:51. > :13:56.Perhaps I can deal with that. The first thing is the launch of the
:13:56. > :14:03.campaign for independence you had people there who want to get rid of
:14:03. > :14:07.the monarchy. You had people who wanted to get rid of the monarchy.
:14:07. > :14:14.Many of the leading nationalists have a history of republicanism.
:14:14. > :14:18.This is all just a cover. On the flag, the Union Flag is made up op
:14:18. > :14:20.the flags of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. You can't
:14:20. > :14:26.argue you are going to break up Britain and have a separate
:14:26. > :14:30.Scotland and still have the Union Flag. I used it as an analogy to
:14:30. > :14:34.explain what the consequences are. My experience of the Royal Family
:14:34. > :14:39.and dealing with the Royal Family is they will move heaven and earth
:14:39. > :14:48.to maintain a united King. How can they do that if they are non-
:14:48. > :14:50.The Royal Family are a unifying force in our country and if
:14:50. > :14:54.Scotland votes to be independent, I'm sure the Royal Family will
:14:54. > :14:58.continue to play a part, just as they play a part in Canada and
:14:58. > :15:03.other countries. But it's Fame Academy chous to argue that we'll
:15:03. > :15:11.still have Britain and the United Kingdom and the result will be a
:15:11. > :15:17.very considerable loss -- factuous. I don't understand it... Perhaps
:15:17. > :15:23.that's because you live in America! APPLAUSE
:15:23. > :15:28.Michael, we grew up very near each other in Scotland. And you are a US
:15:28. > :15:33.citizen. I'm a British citizen as well. And US. What's the big deal?
:15:33. > :15:41.I am a joint citizen. Why can't I understand... Xenophobia, ladies
:15:41. > :15:46.and gentlemen. People have been on about nationalism. We have Sean
:15:46. > :15:50.Connery, a tax exile, Alan who will do anything to get Scotland
:15:50. > :15:57.independent except live here and actually put up with the
:15:57. > :16:01.consequences. Well, you know what... The man at the back there?
:16:01. > :16:04.unfortunate aspect about this referendum is the snch NP want us
:16:04. > :16:08.to talk about the grand scheme of nation. What's important is
:16:08. > :16:14.speaking about people, communities and talking about the issues that
:16:14. > :16:17.really matter to the individual -- SNP. You, Sir, with the spectacles
:16:17. > :16:21.and beard? The SNP seem to be treating the independence argument
:16:21. > :16:25.as a matter of pick 'n' mix, that's one point. The second some point,
:16:25. > :16:30.that if Alex Salmond really wants to win this independence, he should
:16:30. > :16:36.be encouraging the English people to be allowed to vote.
:16:36. > :16:42.English people? What, in England? Which English people? All of the
:16:42. > :16:48.English people who are... England? Fed up with the SNP
:16:48. > :16:52.whinging and would be glad to see the back of... You want the
:16:52. > :16:56.whole...? No, I don't. Oh, I see, but you think he should. The lady
:16:56. > :17:01.there? I'm somebody who hasn't made up my mind which way I would vote,
:17:01. > :17:04.but hearing the panel tonight makes me even more confused than I was
:17:04. > :17:14.beforehand because different situations are being described and
:17:14. > :17:17.
:17:17. > :17:21.it's very confusing. Welcome to the referendum!
:17:21. > :17:27.The debate is not about flags, I don't think the unifying force is
:17:27. > :17:33.the fact that the people chose to work in partnership. The analogy
:17:33. > :17:40.that Alec draws with Australia and New Zealand is not real, it's a
:17:40. > :17:45.choice and partnership. We will decide, we decide the society we
:17:45. > :17:50.want to live in, what is about our aspiration for the care of our
:17:50. > :17:56.elderly and what we want for our churn. The idea that sometimes is
:17:56. > :18:06.there is that somehow the rest of the United Kingdom who want to do
:18:06. > :18:06.
:18:07. > :18:11.us down, they do that. Alec, very briefly? We want political
:18:11. > :18:15.independence but the SNP's always said the social union with the rest
:18:15. > :18:18.of Britain remains and part of the social union is the monarchy, part
:18:18. > :18:22.of the social union is the relationship and the free travel
:18:22. > :18:27.between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, all of which
:18:27. > :18:31.remains. We are a social union, but that doesn't stop us from being
:18:31. > :18:41.politically independent and running our own country. Let's move on.
:18:41. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:53.Now a question from Patrick Chamier-Tripp? Is it fair that
:18:53. > :18:57.welloff pensioners should get free bus passes and the winter fuel
:18:57. > :19:00.allowance? This is the battle reported in Cabinet between the
:19:00. > :19:05.Prime Minister and Iain Duncan Smith about whether better off
:19:05. > :19:10.pensioners should go on getting free bus passes, winter fuel
:19:10. > :19:14.allowance and other things. Michael Forsyth? Jiez yes I think it is and
:19:14. > :19:21.you have to think about how kld work if you didn't have that, it
:19:21. > :19:26.would have to be means tested and you would have to fill in forms 24-
:19:26. > :19:29.pages long. The thing is that people worry about the cost of
:19:29. > :19:33.heating, they don't turn on the fire, they worry about the cost. So
:19:33. > :19:37.I think the heating allowance is a very Ben official thing. The idea
:19:37. > :19:41.that we are going to save a whole load of money by taking away
:19:41. > :19:44.people's bus passes, if they are wealthy and have their own cars,
:19:44. > :19:50.they are probably driving around in cars and not using the buses and
:19:50. > :19:54.the marginal cost of them being on the bus, at particular times of day,
:19:54. > :19:58.will be very little. So I don't believe in means testing, I think
:19:58. > :20:01.the great advantage of universal benefits is that you can avoid
:20:01. > :20:05.means testing. After all, we are talking about people who've paid
:20:05. > :20:11.tax and national insurance all the days of their lives, so I don't
:20:11. > :20:15.actually agree, unusually for me, with the reported comments of those
:20:15. > :20:20.in the Conservative Party. David Cameron and Osborne say it will
:20:20. > :20:23.save them �6 billion a year. That's what the Chancellor says? He says
:20:24. > :20:29.that, I don't know how you would work out how much you would save on
:20:29. > :20:33.the frae travel, but I don't think at this moment when people are
:20:33. > :20:38.finding their fuel bills going up, partly because of the Government's
:20:38. > :20:42.Green Agenda, that it's the right time to take away the benefits.
:20:42. > :20:48.Charles Kennedy? Are you with Nick Clegg on this and think it's a good
:20:48. > :20:51.idea? Yes and listening to Michael, we go back to 1983 together in the
:20:51. > :20:57.House of Commons, and we've slightly on this one passed like
:20:57. > :21:04.ships in the night. A move to the right. I think you have become far
:21:04. > :21:08.too Liberal for your own good actually! It does seem to me that
:21:08. > :21:13.there's an intellectual incoherence about a position whereby in
:21:13. > :21:16.Scotland, and I'm all in favour of all those in need in Scotland of
:21:16. > :21:20.receiving free prescriptions for example, and that's different from
:21:20. > :21:24.the policy south of the border. But I don't think I should be receiving
:21:24. > :21:28.free prescriptions. I think that's absolutely ludicrous on my level of
:21:28. > :21:37.income. Michael says the marginal saving on this one is such that
:21:37. > :21:41.well... But you are not a pensioner? No, not yet. But I'm not
:21:41. > :21:44.Peter Pan either. What I would say is that I do think Governments,
:21:44. > :21:49.whether UK or indeed in years to come in Scotland, are going to have
:21:49. > :21:53.the bite the bullet, that we cannot just carry on with universal
:21:53. > :21:58.coverage which by definition in an ageing society which despite all
:21:58. > :22:03.the present problems is a lot more affluent than it was 20, 30, 40, 50
:22:03. > :22:06.years ago, progressively so, that they can be applied willy-nilly and
:22:06. > :22:10.by definition reach people who don't need them but give
:22:10. > :22:13.insufficient to people who really are in need. But it's a political
:22:13. > :22:16.judgment that's been made here and I think it's a short-term one that
:22:16. > :22:20.Governments of all political persuasion have made down the
:22:20. > :22:24.generations and I think it's a mistake.
:22:24. > :22:28.You, Sir? This current Government are
:22:28. > :22:34.chizling away at the benefits system with all sorts of silly
:22:34. > :22:41.savings around the margins. Yet they're not telling the people how
:22:41. > :22:46.much they do not pay out and at the last figures I heard, as I work in
:22:46. > :22:52.the charitable sector, it's �49 billion annually in unclaimed
:22:52. > :22:56.benefits, mostly to elderly people. If they want to sort this problem
:22:56. > :23:02.out, they want to start giving compulsory benefit checks to all
:23:02. > :23:05.people. Then you would be spending much more money? A damn fortune. It
:23:05. > :23:09.would probably bankrupt the country, then they would have something to
:23:09. > :23:13.complain about. At the moment, they are chiselling away with Nickells
:23:13. > :23:17.and dimes on bus passes, prescriptions and all sorts of
:23:17. > :23:23.silly things that don't really mean anything and are just a political
:23:23. > :23:29.slogan. You, Sir? If Iain Duncan Smith wishes to save money, he
:23:30. > :23:33.could have saved the taxpayer over �20 billion odd if he hadn't got
:23:34. > :23:38.involved in Afghanistan and the loss of life of innocent people and
:23:38. > :23:43.plus the fact of Iraq. I would like to remind Mr Forsyth, Her Majesty
:23:43. > :23:49.the Queen approached this coalition Government not so long ago to ask
:23:49. > :23:55.them if she could get the old age heating allowance off the old age
:23:55. > :23:59.pensioners to get the palace's up. I don't know anything about that.
:23:59. > :24:03.Johann Lamont, what is your view? think there is a false debate going
:24:03. > :24:07.on between means testing or not. Some things need to be targeted.
:24:07. > :24:14.The SNP Government when they came in stopped free central heating and
:24:14. > :24:17.the argument was universal provision. Yes you did change the
:24:17. > :24:21.provision. That's just not true. Before we do this tit-for-tat, can
:24:21. > :24:28.we talk about the big issue, the whole of the UK should have means
:24:28. > :24:31.tested benefits. You need to target need for some benefits. A free bus
:24:31. > :24:34.pass will reach people of lower incomes because they are less
:24:34. > :24:38.likely to have a car. The same thing applies to heating allowance
:24:38. > :24:42.because they are less likely to have properly heated homes, but
:24:42. > :24:48.there are some benefits which appear, for example, you have a
:24:48. > :24:53.free service given, but you have to ask then where is the cost coming.
:24:53. > :24:59.People get winter fuel allowance automatically. I get it. You get it.
:24:59. > :25:02.No, you don't! Ouch! I knew there was a flaw in
:25:02. > :25:07.the argument somewhere! You are just pushing your luck!
:25:07. > :25:11.The point I was trying to make is that people make a false debate
:25:11. > :25:15.between you're either in favour of means testing or you're not. It
:25:15. > :25:19.depends what the particular issue is. Free bus pass seems to liberate
:25:19. > :25:23.a lot of older people in poorer communities and is easier and cheap
:25:23. > :25:28.tore do universally. Other benefits should be targeted because the cost
:25:28. > :25:32.of making them free are disproportionately borne by those
:25:32. > :25:36.on low income. You penalise people who've saved all their lives and I
:25:36. > :25:42.think that's unfair. The woman in purple in the third row from the
:25:42. > :25:46.back? Who certainly doesn't get a free bus pass! I don't, no! In my
:25:46. > :25:50.area, whether you get a free bus pass, whether you are old, young or
:25:50. > :25:53.whatever, I think what's most important for us is that we have a
:25:53. > :25:58.bus service. At the moment we have nothing, so that's been taken away,
:25:58. > :26:01.so, you know, it doesn't mean anything anyway.
:26:01. > :26:06.APPLAUSE Melanie Phillips? I think this
:26:06. > :26:10.proposal to take free bus passes away from "welloff pensioners" is
:26:10. > :26:13.really mean spirited and very dangerous. It's not as if the bus
:26:13. > :26:17.pass is given to pensioners on account of their presumed poverty.
:26:17. > :26:22.The bus pass is given to pensioners on account of the fact that they
:26:22. > :26:26.are elderly and, as a society, we think they are afforded some
:26:26. > :26:31.respect and some special privileges on the account of the fact that
:26:31. > :26:35.they are elderly. If you say that the well-off should not get free
:26:35. > :26:39.bus passes, that applies to the whole of the welfare state. I was
:26:40. > :26:43.very interested to hear our Charles Kennedy here arguing for the
:26:44. > :26:47.destruction of the entire welfare state because if you take away free
:26:47. > :26:52.bus passes... That's slightly exaggerating what I said, Melanie.
:26:52. > :26:55.You may not think that is what you said but it's actually what you did
:26:55. > :27:00.say. If you take away free bus passes on the grounds that people
:27:00. > :27:03.are so well-off they shouldn't have them, you take away all benefits on
:27:03. > :27:08.the basis that people shouldn't have them because they are well-off.
:27:08. > :27:12.I think the welfare state, there's a lot wrong with it, it should be
:27:12. > :27:15.fundamentally recast to be more about responsibilities so I endorse
:27:16. > :27:20.a lot of what Iain Duncan Smith is doing. But nevertheless, if we have
:27:20. > :27:25.a welfare state, if you start excluding people from it on account
:27:25. > :27:30.of the fact they reach some notional income level which
:27:30. > :27:35.excludes them, then you start having a divided society. Child
:27:35. > :27:38.benefit, were you against taking that away? On principle I'm against
:27:38. > :27:42.it completely because it's an incentive for mass fatherlessness
:27:42. > :27:45.because that's another issue. If you are going to have it, it should
:27:45. > :27:49.be available to everybody. It's very difficult to believe that you
:27:49. > :27:58.qualify for the winter fuel allowance. Thank you! Can't
:27:58. > :28:01.remember when you get it. How old do you have to be? 65. 60. 55 I
:28:01. > :28:06.think! The Bank of England estimates that even today this
:28:06. > :28:10.Government is subsidising the banks to the tune of �11 billion a year
:28:10. > :28:14.and it's a disgrace that they're thinking of taking away the
:28:15. > :28:19.benefits from pensioners and still paying the banks �11 billion a year
:28:19. > :28:23.taking the money from the banks and giving - take the money from the
:28:23. > :28:27.banks and give it to the pensioner. The second point is this, and I'll
:28:27. > :28:31.break the habit of a lifetime and agree with Michael Forsyth, it's
:28:31. > :28:36.absolutely right that people who've worked all their days and paid into
:28:36. > :28:41.a company pension scheme or super an waition scheme get penalised by
:28:41. > :28:45.not getting the fuel allowance or bus pass because they've saved for
:28:45. > :28:48.retirement. It's a disincentive to save and iblg these people should
:28:48. > :28:58.be as entitled to the winter fuel allowance and the bus pass as
:28:58. > :29:00.
:29:00. > :29:04.My mum gets the winter fuel allowance and she has a bigger
:29:04. > :29:08.disposable income than I have - a single parent with three young
:29:08. > :29:12.children. I could arguably do with that money more than she could,
:29:12. > :29:15.however I'm in a fortunate position that I don't need it, but there are
:29:15. > :29:20.other single parents who could do with that more than a lot of
:29:20. > :29:23.elderly people in society. I'm not saying you should take it away from
:29:23. > :29:28.all elderly people but there are other people who are more needy.
:29:28. > :29:36.You could take it away from your mother significance significance.
:29:36. > :29:41.Yes, but she -- You could take it away from your mother. Yes, but she
:29:41. > :29:47.would kill me for saying that. There's a bigger question here,
:29:47. > :29:52.that the last Budget that this is stemming from seems to me, the
:29:52. > :29:56.biggest deal of it was letting a lot of rich people get richer, and
:29:56. > :30:00.we are talking about bus passes and fuel allowances. That's such small
:30:00. > :30:04.change when you consider the amount of money that a lot of very wealthy
:30:04. > :30:09.people in this country don't have to pay out any more and put back
:30:09. > :30:15.into the system. That's what we should be thinking about. APPLAUSE
:30:15. > :30:19.The man in the checked shirt. I think the whole issue here is
:30:19. > :30:23.about raising or saving �6 billion. I think the Chancellor might make a
:30:23. > :30:29.start by having a public inquiry on the finances of football clubs.
:30:29. > :30:34.Glasgow Rangers appear to be getting away with �40 million or
:30:34. > :30:40.�50 million of unpaid tax. Presumably other clubs are going to
:30:40. > :30:44.run up similar amounts and never pay them. You on the right.
:30:44. > :30:50.elderly people, the winter fuel allowance, quite a lot of them say
:30:50. > :30:55.we don't need it. You could make it an option for them to say, do you
:30:55. > :31:00.need it? They could say yes or no. Social services for the most
:31:00. > :31:06.vulnerable ones could say yes, they desperately need this. I don't
:31:06. > :31:10.understand why it is such a difficult question. I wanted, since
:31:10. > :31:16.Melanie was flattering me by claiming to know my own mind better
:31:16. > :31:21.than I know myself, which may not be claiming a lot, if you say the
:31:21. > :31:26.logic of my argument leads the destruction of the welfare state,
:31:26. > :31:35.the logic of your argument, no child benefit at all, that would be
:31:35. > :31:40.the end of the welfare state. Nonsense. We had a welfare state
:31:40. > :31:50.before child benefit. Joe Hallwood please. Is it the job of the
:31:50. > :31:59.Germans to save the eurozone? euro land. Who would like to start
:31:59. > :32:05.on this? Melanie Phillips Frau Merkel desperately wants to saver
:32:05. > :32:12.euro land, as we all see. I don't think euro land can or should be
:32:12. > :32:22.saved. In my view, the real cause of what we are seeing is the
:32:22. > :32:23.
:32:23. > :32:26.fundamental incompatibility of the whole EU project. It tried to yoke
:32:26. > :32:32.together disparate nations with disparate economies on the fiction
:32:32. > :32:36.that they can all unite in a single currency without political union.
:32:36. > :32:40.And pretending that this whole thing ant about political union at
:32:40. > :32:44.the end of the day, which in my view is fundamentally anti-
:32:44. > :32:50.democratic. I always thought that was the ultimate aim of the EU, to
:32:50. > :32:56.create one single state. I always thought it was very anti-democratic.
:32:56. > :33:01.I always thought the single currency, the euro and the whole
:33:01. > :33:06.project was so fundamentally flawed, because you cannot bring together
:33:06. > :33:10.all these nations in one project like this. The thing was bound to
:33:11. > :33:15.collapse. Do you want to see it collapse? And if it does collapse
:33:15. > :33:19.What effect will it have on our economy? If it collapses, which I
:33:19. > :33:23.think it will, the effect on everyone unfortunately is going to
:33:23. > :33:27.be absolutely awful. There are ways of doing this I think or managing
:33:27. > :33:31.this better, which certainly our Government doesn't seem to be
:33:31. > :33:37.agreeing with what I'm about to say, which is that people, that the
:33:37. > :33:40.countries that are in such sifts - Greece, Spain, possibly Italy - the
:33:40. > :33:44.reason they are in difficulties is they can't rescue their own
:33:44. > :33:47.economies. The reason they can't rescue their own economies is
:33:47. > :33:51.because they are completely stuck because of the rules of the euro.
:33:51. > :33:56.In other words, what they have to do to rescue their economies is to
:33:56. > :34:00.come out of the euro. I'm not saying that this is going to be
:34:00. > :34:06.painless. Clearly we are between a rock and a hard place here.
:34:06. > :34:10.Everyone alternative is going to be bad. But you don't want to see the
:34:10. > :34:15.Germans come to the rescue at this stage of the eurozone? If by coming
:34:15. > :34:20.to the rescue it means the Germans have to bail out countries which
:34:20. > :34:25.have hit the buffers, then first of all Germany can't do that. It
:34:25. > :34:28.doesn't have the money to do that. And secondly it will simply stave
:34:28. > :34:34.off the day of final reckoning. If countries are living beyond their
:34:34. > :34:38.means, if they are behaving in ways which are economically and fiscally
:34:38. > :34:42.totally imprudent, ultimately they have to take control of themselves
:34:42. > :34:49.and behave in a responsible way. If they are bailed out they will never
:34:49. > :34:54.do that. Thank you. The man in the middle. It does occur to me that
:34:54. > :34:59.the Germans are very reluctant for any change to hangs because they do
:34:59. > :35:06.very nicely thank you out of the situation that the way it is, as
:35:06. > :35:14.everybody, as the lady is saying, stuck. What do you think their
:35:14. > :35:17.instincts is? Protectionism. Johann? I think the frightening
:35:17. > :35:21.thing is despite the fact that there are experts here and there,
:35:21. > :35:25.nobody really nose what's going to happen. That sense of chaos, of
:35:25. > :35:30.things being out of control, that people made decisions round the
:35:30. > :35:34.euro as a political project without thinking through what the economic
:35:34. > :35:38.consequences were does make us wary for the future. I hope that in this
:35:38. > :35:43.we understand that the centre of this, across Europe, there are
:35:43. > :35:47.ordinary farm lis bearing a very heavy price for decisions that were
:35:47. > :35:51.not at their hand to make. I think whatever they do across the
:35:51. > :35:55.eurozone it should be across the leaderships in every country. They
:35:55. > :36:00.should be mindful that people are bearing that cost, bearing a very
:36:00. > :36:04.heavy cost, they didn't make the decision and it may be that Germany
:36:04. > :36:07.may want to act in one way or. They must all come together to find a
:36:07. > :36:15.solution because of the consequences. So you do endorse
:36:15. > :36:19.what the German Chancellor said on Germany television that we need a
:36:19. > :36:23.political union first and foremost. Do you endorse that as an ambition
:36:23. > :36:27.and is that the way to save the eurozone in your view? As I've said
:36:27. > :36:31.I think the focus must be on the consequences for individual
:36:31. > :36:34.economies across Europe. All of the old certainties about how things
:36:35. > :36:40.were supposed to work need to be put to one side and people need to
:36:40. > :36:45.come together and understand if they don't work together, we will
:36:45. > :36:48.see devastation across Europe. woman on the left. I don't think
:36:48. > :36:51.that Germany should be responsible for the euro land, I really don't
:36:51. > :36:56.that I that the United Kingdom should have to put our hands in our
:36:56. > :37:00.pockets to bail out the euro, as we are not a part of it. Do you think
:37:00. > :37:04.there's a danger of that happening? Yes I do. There's a huge danger of
:37:04. > :37:08.that happening with the International Monetary Fund.
:37:08. > :37:12.the woman there? A precondition of entering Europe as a new country is
:37:12. > :37:18.to accept the euro in times been does that mean an independent
:37:18. > :37:22.Scotland is going to become part of the peg? Is this going to happen in
:37:22. > :37:28.future? Michael Forsyth? You are absolutely right. There's a period
:37:28. > :37:33.of time that you can adjust to it. I can't get my head round the
:37:33. > :37:36.concept of independence, where some other Central Bank and some other
:37:36. > :37:42.central Government sets your interest rates. I think the point
:37:42. > :37:48.made by Melanie explains exactly how this euro experiment is going
:37:48. > :37:52.to end in disaster and cannot be made to work. I remember years ago
:37:52. > :37:58.when I was in front line politics Nicholas Ridley being forced to
:37:58. > :38:03.resign from our Government because he had given an interview to the
:38:03. > :38:07.Spectator when he described the euro as a German react. The Germans
:38:07. > :38:12.through the euro have been able to have a competitive exchange rate,
:38:12. > :38:16.which has enabled them to sell their BMWs and the Greeks and
:38:16. > :38:20.Italians and others have had a very uncompetitive exchange rate and
:38:20. > :38:25.their standard of living is being crushed. If they continue with this
:38:25. > :38:30.project, this euro is going to destroy the prospects for our young
:38:30. > :38:35.people across Europe. It is going to create social division, and the
:38:35. > :38:40.Germans are never going to agree to pick up the tab. 20 years ago there
:38:40. > :38:43.was a campaign run run by the SNP in Scotland. They said Scotland is
:38:43. > :38:47.paying the price of high interest rates for the overheating economy
:38:47. > :38:52.in south-east England. I found it difficult to deal with, because
:38:52. > :38:56.they were absolutely right. With monetary union in the United
:38:56. > :39:00.Kingdom it is hard to set interest rates to cover the United Kingdom
:39:00. > :39:06.with all our integrated fivements you cannot do it for countries as
:39:06. > :39:10.diverse as Cyprus, Germany and Spain. We have a political class
:39:10. > :39:14.who've hung their hats on the euro and they are prepared to do
:39:14. > :39:19.anything rather than admit they were wrong and go back to what we
:39:19. > :39:24.signed up for - a free trade area, not a country called Europe. The
:39:24. > :39:28.supreme irony for us in Scotland is the party which talks about
:39:28. > :39:31.independence in Europe could shackle us to the kind of
:39:31. > :39:36.disastrous position that the Greeks see themselves in now. We have to
:39:37. > :39:40.find a reverse gear and get out of this. There is no way the Germans
:39:40. > :39:45.are going take this forward. I don't agree with the Prime Minister
:39:45. > :39:49.when he says we need to take the action with a euro. That would be
:39:49. > :39:54.disastrous for Europe, disastrous for our markets and our young
:39:54. > :40:03.people, who have so much idealism as Europe as an open market.
:40:03. > :40:06.APPLAUSE Apart from the fact that I agree that Europe shows that
:40:06. > :40:09.economic unity doesn't work without political unity and for
:40:09. > :40:14.independence that's a bit dodgy, but the question hasn't been
:40:14. > :40:18.answered. Something has to happen. Cameron and Obama both said today
:40:18. > :40:23.that something's got to happen, and quickly. If it is not the job of
:40:23. > :40:29.the Germans it has to be the job of someone to save the euro, otherwise
:40:29. > :40:34.it has such huge repercussions on the world economy. Do you want to
:40:34. > :40:37.answer his point? Absolutely. Will whether you are for or against
:40:38. > :40:44.political union we are now in a crisis situation and urgent action
:40:44. > :40:48.is needed not in six months' time, nine months' time, the urgent
:40:48. > :40:53.action is needed now and there needs to be a strategic action
:40:53. > :40:57.taken by the yorns. Are they going to -- by the Europeans. Are they
:40:57. > :41:04.going to bail out the Greeks and the Portuguese and others are allow
:41:04. > :41:09.them to leave the euro? There's a flaw in the euro because
:41:09. > :41:13.productivity in Greece is 30% lower than than in Germany. That's why we
:41:13. > :41:18.are in the position we are in today with the euro. There are two ways
:41:18. > :41:22.to solve it. You either completely are in this together in euro land
:41:22. > :41:27.and help each other in a financial way out of it. Or you allow the
:41:27. > :41:31.Greeks and potentially the Portugal ease, even the Italians, possiblyly
:41:31. > :41:36.the Spaniards to leave the euro. Either way, the key point is a
:41:36. > :41:40.decision has to be made. They cannot put this decision off much
:41:40. > :41:46.longer. The minute we know the election result in Greece I believe
:41:46. > :41:49.the markets will go wild. Is it the job of the Germans, as the
:41:49. > :41:55.questioner put it, to save the eurozone? I think they have a big
:41:55. > :42:00.role to play in saving the eurozone, as by far they are the strongest
:42:00. > :42:04.economy. Are they going to allow Greece and the others to falter and
:42:04. > :42:09.leave the eurozone, which has got huge implications for everybody, or
:42:09. > :42:12.bail them out, which has huge implications for everybody. This
:42:12. > :42:16.dithering, and it is neither one thing nor the other, is the worst
:42:16. > :42:22.of all possible worlds. We need leadership. That's what we need -
:42:22. > :42:27.leadership. Alan Cumming? You know, it is a mess. It is a
:42:27. > :42:32.total mess. I think the world's economy has been a total mess since
:42:32. > :42:35.2007. It seems to me this whole thing, we talk about who should
:42:35. > :42:40.take responsibility for it when actually the real reason we are in
:42:40. > :42:45.this mess is because a lot of bankers were gambling with our
:42:45. > :42:49.country's money, with our own money, and a lot of greedy bankers got us
:42:49. > :42:53.into this. They weren't regulated by our Governments and that has to
:42:53. > :42:58.happen. All these countries in Europe have to have much stricter
:42:58. > :43:04.regulations on the financial sector and hopefully we'll never get into
:43:04. > :43:09.this mess again. APPLAUSE The woman in purple. I agree with a lot of
:43:09. > :43:14.what Alan said, but lot of the problems in Greece existed in the
:43:14. > :43:20.country 10-15 years ago and I don't think it can be blamed on the
:43:20. > :43:25.banking system. It it was culture of the country before it joined the
:43:25. > :43:32.euro. Maybe Germany has some blame to take for allowing them to join
:43:32. > :43:37.in the first place. The Germans probably have a memory of the 1930s
:43:37. > :43:43.of taking wheelbarrows of money to buy bread. I would think the UK
:43:43. > :43:48.Government is a bit rich in actually giving advice, given the
:43:48. > :43:55.mess they've made in the last 50 years. We could go back to Harold
:43:55. > :44:00.Wilson, to Ted Heath and the three- day week, bringing in the IMF,
:44:00. > :44:05.Maggie's 5 million. We've got Tony and Gordon were going to make
:44:05. > :44:10.everything better and it got decidedly worse. We've got the
:44:10. > :44:16.Muppets now, so... APPLAUSE It is very serious. We actually
:44:16. > :44:25.need to all get together and work together to get something done.
:44:25. > :44:31.Charles Kennedy? Politically I've never been described as a Muppet
:44:31. > :44:35.before. Mea culpa politically, and I was still serving as President of
:44:35. > :44:40.the European movement in the UK which is all party and non-party,
:44:40. > :44:44.I've always taken the view, as have many others, that if you have a
:44:44. > :44:49.single European market, which we do, and Britain and Michael was in
:44:49. > :44:52.Government, the frontline politician, as he earlier described
:44:52. > :44:59.himself, should just note for the history books after he stopped
:44:59. > :45:04.being a frontline politician, he went on to become a banker. What
:45:04. > :45:07.else could I do? He's got a bit of mea culpa about him too. I took the
:45:07. > :45:10.view that the logic and inevitability of the single
:45:10. > :45:15.European market was that if you really want it to operate, you need
:45:15. > :45:18.a single means of exchange, a Single Currency. I think where the
:45:18. > :45:27.politics got it wrong and this has now been borne out in the most
:45:27. > :45:32.graphic way and the points that have been made, the last gentleman
:45:32. > :45:36.contributed were absolutely correct. To satisfy understandable German
:45:36. > :45:40.sensitivities about the wreckage that they'd gone through
:45:40. > :45:45.financially in previous generations, then a blind eye was turned to them
:45:45. > :45:49.for certain countries and currencys to make it all one great
:45:49. > :45:54.conglomerate. Which country broke the rules first? Germany followed
:45:54. > :45:57.by France? I'm talking about the rules which were then to
:45:57. > :46:00.accommodate, as your Chief Executive was saying at the time,
:46:00. > :46:05.Ken Clarke... But the borrowing, the first country to break the
:46:05. > :46:08.rules were the Germans, then the French. You can't just blame this
:46:08. > :46:12.all on the Greeks and Italians? Sfrpblgts I'm not, but if there's
:46:12. > :46:15.to be a solution, the Germans, this is the point I was going to make
:46:15. > :46:20.urbgs have to be part of that solution because there can't be a
:46:20. > :46:24.solution by definition unless they are. How you win that argument in
:46:24. > :46:31.domestic German politics, well, no wonder the current Chancellor is
:46:31. > :46:35.remaining as, to mix my language, as Sochi vochy as she can.
:46:35. > :46:40.Something may not give, it may just collapse, the economy may get worse
:46:40. > :46:44.and everybody here will suffer. It's possible it may, in due course,
:46:44. > :46:50.through a painful process, you may end up with a smaller, in terms of
:46:50. > :46:57.the number of participants, a smaller eurozone. But our capacity
:46:57. > :47:03.to influence is limited because... Major impact in the UK. If the
:47:03. > :47:08.graecks exit the euro, UK production, GDP goes down between
:47:08. > :47:10.2-4%. A huge drop -- Greeks. I want to go on to a question about the
:47:10. > :47:15.domestic economy and the Budget. We have talked about changes to
:47:15. > :47:20.pensioners and all that, but this one will affect everybody. Jennifer
:47:20. > :47:25.Gracie has the question? How can a 3p increase in fuel duty be
:47:25. > :47:30.justified when rural businesses and families are already struggling to
:47:30. > :47:34.keep moving? This is the increase in fuel prices that the
:47:34. > :47:38.Chancellor's imposing in August. How can you justify it when rural
:47:38. > :47:45.businesses and families are struggling to keep moving? I think
:47:45. > :47:50.it costs something like between �30 and �40 per year. Michael Forsyth?
:47:50. > :47:56.Oh, God. Don't say that, answer the question. The state is spending 50%
:47:56. > :47:59.of our GDP, too much. We are living beyond our means. We talk about
:47:59. > :48:03.reducing the deficit. When we talk about that, we are talking about
:48:03. > :48:08.actually cutting the rate at which the debt is increasing. In five
:48:08. > :48:11.years' time, our national debt will have gone up from 1 trillion to 1.5
:48:12. > :48:18.trillion, so we are living beyond our means and we are taxing too
:48:18. > :48:23.highly and that is why we are not getting growth. The businesses, the
:48:23. > :48:27.small businesses simply haven't got the money. To my mind, putting up
:48:27. > :48:30.fuel duty, it all adds, puts up prices in shops, puts up the cost
:48:30. > :48:34.of going to work, it's not a sensible basis on which to proceed,
:48:34. > :48:44.so I very much hope that the Chancellor will think of not going
:48:44. > :48:51.ahead with that proposal. Johann Lamont? Why, when we had a
:48:51. > :48:56.Chancellor, he was always called La-Mont and you are called Lament,
:48:56. > :49:03.which is the Scottish pronunciation. Why is that? Why did you have a
:49:03. > :49:07.Scot called Lamont who was a Tory then, I don't know!? Let's two back
:49:07. > :49:12.to the question bs, are you in favour of it? The Chancellor has a
:49:12. > :49:16.record of thinking again, so we maybe have some optimism and the
:49:17. > :49:20.message is, when making budget decisions, you almost have to test
:49:20. > :49:24.him against proper sense of consequences. Maybe this is a way
:49:25. > :49:27.of balancing a budget, but if they are a direct consequence for rural
:49:27. > :49:29.communities and businesses, it would affect growth and so on so
:49:29. > :49:35.you have a real problem. Our position has been that we don't
:49:35. > :49:38.have a budget for growth at all. Despite the fact that David
:49:38. > :49:41.Cameron's prepared to lecture the rest of Europe about the need for
:49:41. > :49:46.growth, he himself in his own Budget's caused major problems, so
:49:46. > :49:50.I think that the test is what are the consequences of, and they need
:49:50. > :49:57.to be listening to rural businesses in the same way as in the Western
:49:57. > :50:00.Isles for example, the decision of the SNP to withdraw for businesses
:50:00. > :50:03.there is having impacts on the rural communities. You need to
:50:03. > :50:06.think about the choices there. had questions about fuel. So I
:50:06. > :50:10.would like to hear about anybody who wants to talk about that?
:50:10. > :50:14.lady's done very well to avoid the question there, if I may say so.
:50:14. > :50:19.The fact is, if Labour would have been in power, petrol would be much
:50:19. > :50:24.more now than it will be even if Osborne puts the 3p on.
:50:24. > :50:28.Melanie Phillips? Well, I think that the increase in fuel duty is
:50:28. > :50:32.absolute madness for the reasons that have been already said. I mean,
:50:32. > :50:36.the country needs desperately to become more competitive and this is
:50:36. > :50:41.another way of ensuring that doesn't happen. But to my way of
:50:41. > :50:45.thinking, what makes it even more ludicrous is that it's kind of got
:50:45. > :50:49.a halo of justification around it, this fuel duty on the basis that we
:50:49. > :50:54.all know that petrol is evil because we all know that we have to
:50:54. > :51:00.bring down our carbon emissions. This country is making its own, to
:51:00. > :51:03.put it mildly, noose for its own neck by an absolutely suicidal
:51:03. > :51:11.environmental policy which commits us to reduce carbon emissions in
:51:11. > :51:15.the cause of which the hard-pressed British public is being hammered by
:51:15. > :51:20.fuel duty, all in pursuit of a theory of man-made global warming
:51:20. > :51:24.which is itself a total sham. Nothing to do with the Treasury or
:51:24. > :51:28.any of that? The Treasury is simply trying to raise money by whatever
:51:28. > :51:35.means it can and thinks it can get away with it on the basis that it
:51:35. > :51:40.can appeal to green sensibilities which are bogus. The man in the
:51:40. > :51:48.very back row in blue? Do you think the areas like the
:51:48. > :51:51.Highlands should be exempt from tax? And fuel duty? That would be a
:51:51. > :51:58.lovely scenario, I don't think it's going to happen, although this part
:51:58. > :52:04.of the country, alone with the -- along with the Scilly Isles are
:52:04. > :52:07.experiencing or just started recently, a reduction in petrol
:52:07. > :52:11.praises and this has been all but wiped out by what's been happening
:52:11. > :52:17.at the pump the very week it was introduced, but we are trying out a
:52:17. > :52:23.pilot scheme which some of us have lobbied for for years. The 3p will
:52:23. > :52:28.more or less rub it out. Absolutely point taken and these are some of
:52:28. > :52:33.the arguments raging in and out of the coalition. This was day facto
:52:33. > :52:38.for many years in other European member states. The Treasury,
:52:38. > :52:46.Conservative and Labour, wouldn't touch or embrace it because civil
:52:46. > :52:49.servants at a European level just as UK and Scottish level hate
:52:49. > :52:52.variations from the norm. We've actually broken through that
:52:52. > :52:56.barrier, so I think the Government of Westminster deserve credit. But
:52:56. > :53:01.at the very time that we've broken through it, albeit in a pilot
:53:01. > :53:04.scheme, and let's see how it works and let's hope we can extend it to
:53:04. > :53:08.the mainland in due course, that's been thrown out of kilter by the
:53:08. > :53:12.other rises that are now due to go through, hence the big campaign and
:53:12. > :53:16.the fact that many of us, whilst sympathetic to the economic plight
:53:16. > :53:20.that the Government finds itself in and nonetheless trying to make a
:53:20. > :53:26.rational argument for looking for other ways of attracting income.
:53:26. > :53:30.Where would you go for it if you were Chancellor? I'm very glad I'm
:53:30. > :53:35.not the Chancellor, I'm very glad to say. It's not a flippant answer.
:53:35. > :53:40.Some of the richest people in this country are private equity people.
:53:40. > :53:46.They are paid through a mechanism called carry, so huge sums of money.
:53:46. > :53:49.They are paying tax at a rate of less than 10% in some cases, less
:53:49. > :53:53.than that. There are areas where the Government can go for revenue.
:53:53. > :53:58.Personally I think the tax burden is too high and we need to reduce
:53:58. > :54:02.it in order to get growth and I believe that given the opportunity,
:54:02. > :54:06.the private sector will take advantage of that. But there are
:54:06. > :54:12.areas and people turning their businesses from limited liability
:54:13. > :54:16.companies into partnerships in order to avoid national insurance.
:54:16. > :54:21.But the Tory manifesto followed the SNP example which said if the
:54:21. > :54:25.international price of oil goes up, taxation should go down to
:54:25. > :54:31.stabilise fuel prices and if the reverse happens, you do the same so
:54:31. > :54:35.you have stable fuel prices. This should be the next U-turn and they
:54:35. > :54:38.should keep to the manifesto promise to introduce the fuel
:54:38. > :54:44.regulator that would actually stabilise fuel prices and it's not
:54:44. > :54:48.just the price of fuel, the Air Passenger Duty increases can also
:54:48. > :54:53.destroy many aspects of tourism in Scotland as well. Let's stick with
:54:53. > :55:00.petrol. The man in the pink shirt there. You, Sir? Many parts of the
:55:00. > :55:04.economy in the Highlands, especially are tourism based. With
:55:04. > :55:10.this height on fuel costs, they are going to be at a huge disadvantage.
:55:10. > :55:16.Therefore, the UK export invisible exports will suffer. We need a
:55:16. > :55:20.growth agenda very, very fast. Especially in the rural economy.
:55:20. > :55:23.The 3p? It's one thing that could help, including a reduction in VAT
:55:23. > :55:28.for hospitality. All right. I'll come to you in a
:55:28. > :55:31.moment. Alan Cumming, then you up there? This is another example of
:55:31. > :55:36.how the Cameron Clegg combo is out of touch with different parts of
:55:36. > :55:41.the country. Up here, where people live in rural areas who need and
:55:41. > :55:46.rely on their cars, fuel is of paramount importance. I'm also, if
:55:46. > :55:52.I may say, reeling from Melanie's comment that all the green issues
:55:52. > :55:56.are bogus. No, really? Yes! What the hell?! I mean, I think there's
:55:56. > :56:03.a point that we need to embrace all the other forms of energy and not
:56:03. > :56:09.rely on petrol. So I guess I am agreeing with you in a miniscule
:56:09. > :56:13.way. Also in Scotland we have 25% of Europe's wind and tidal power at
:56:13. > :56:18.our disposal that we can invest in. That's money we should be able to
:56:18. > :56:22.have the opportunity to invest in that. Also, Johann, if I may say as
:56:22. > :56:31.the non-political person at the table, I find it... You are a
:56:31. > :56:38.political person? You... Not a paid one. Not an elected political
:56:38. > :56:44.person. Not an elected political person or a right-wing writer for a
:56:44. > :56:50.right-wing rag. You will have to be brief. I find it crazy, or weird
:56:50. > :56:56.that Johann's bashing on about David Cameron and this issue and
:56:56. > :57:02.yet you're endorsing David Cameron by not voting for independence.
:57:02. > :57:07.We'll leave that. It's a false choice between the Tories. It's
:57:07. > :57:11.another choice, it's a Labour choice right across the United
:57:11. > :57:14.Kingdom. I think you could save a lot of money by councils who have
:57:14. > :57:19.pointless projects like the Edinburgh trams for example, by
:57:19. > :57:24.asking the people do they need this, do they want it and you would save
:57:24. > :57:29.a fortune on anything. That Holyrood building, I'm sorry, you
:57:29. > :57:33.could have kitted it out from Ikea with a fraction of the cost. It's
:57:33. > :57:40.unbelievable the amount of money that gets wasted. Is Edinburgh
:57:40. > :57:44.going to ever have trams do you think? No. We have to stop. Our
:57:44. > :57:48.time is up. Sorry to those who've still got your hands up but there
:57:48. > :57:52.we go. We are going to be in stock on on tease next week on the
:57:52. > :57:55.Thursday when the Prime Minister appears before Leveson. They may
:57:55. > :57:59.provoke something, we don't know, but he's meant to be there for most
:57:59. > :58:04.of the day. The week after that, we'll be in West Brom. If you would
:58:04. > :58:14.like to come to Stockton-on-Tees or West Brom, to question the panel or
:58:14. > :58:15.