:00:09. > :00:15.Tonight's programme includes some strong language.
:00:15. > :00:22.Tonight we are in the old railway steam engine repair shed, the
:00:22. > :00:28.Roundhouse, in Derby. Welcome to Question Time.
:00:28. > :00:34.And on our panel here, the Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Ed
:00:34. > :00:39.Davey, the former Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, novelist turned
:00:39. > :00:45.Conservative MP, Louise Mensch, Sunday Times columnist Dominic
:00:45. > :00:55.Lawson, and musician and founder of the band Public Image Limited, John
:00:55. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :00:59.Lydon. APPLAUSE
:00:59. > :01:02.Thank you very much. Our first question, from Marlon Hepburn
:01:02. > :01:05.tonight please. Given that George Osborne is already blaming Ed Balls
:01:05. > :01:15.for the LIBOR scandal, what's to stop the Parliament-led inquiry
:01:15. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:23.turning into a political squabble? Louise Mensch, were you in the
:01:23. > :01:28.House of Commons today, but see it going on? Saw it going on, but I
:01:28. > :01:31.was coming up to Derby, so I didn't get to vote in the debate. I think
:01:31. > :01:36.what will stop it is Andrew Tyrie, who is chairing the parliamentary
:01:36. > :01:43.inquiry. He is incredibly respected on all sides of the House. After
:01:43. > :01:50.the vote was taken, when Ed Balls got up, he said how respected was
:01:50. > :01:55.Andrew Tyrie in the House. didn't get much out of Bob Diamond
:01:55. > :01:59.in the committee? The best questions came from my colleague
:01:59. > :02:06.Andrea, who worked in a bank as a compliance officer, who knew what
:02:06. > :02:11.she was talking about and pinned him down on the crimes. Do you
:02:11. > :02:15.think he was right to blame Ed Balls on? I'm afraid they were as
:02:15. > :02:20.useless as a chocolate teapot. I don't think the public is too
:02:20. > :02:24.concerned with the form the inquiry takes. They want to see arrests,
:02:24. > :02:27.prosecutions, people to brought to justice. While they are interested
:02:27. > :02:32.in the inquiry, what they are most interested this is the serious
:02:32. > :02:37.Fraud Squad going in there and bringing some bankers to justice.
:02:37. > :02:42.Do you think that Ed Balls is to blame for this and has questions to
:02:42. > :02:47.answer? He has questions to ask on the regulatory issue. Come clean,
:02:47. > :02:51.Ed. Are you saying he it was one who tipped off Barclays that they
:02:51. > :02:56.were doing the wrong thing? What George Osborne said was people
:02:56. > :03:00.around Gordon Brown influenced it. There were questions about Shriti
:03:00. > :03:04.Vadera, Mr Brown's adviser at the time, and Ed Balls himself said
:03:04. > :03:07.publicly there may have been calls between the Treasury and the Bank
:03:07. > :03:16.of England about this. Well, may have isn't good enough. Labour
:03:16. > :03:20.needs to say what happened, now. Alan Johnson. Is this a smear
:03:20. > :03:24.against Labour and against Ed Balls that we are seeing, and you do
:03:24. > :03:27.trust the two sides to get to the truth? I think there's a lot of
:03:27. > :03:31.people on Louise's side of the House who are concerned about the
:03:31. > :03:34.way George Osborne has played this. We have to make sure this doesn't
:03:34. > :03:39.degenerate into a political squabble. This is so important. If
:03:40. > :03:45.you look at what's happened here, the report from the FSA and the
:03:45. > :03:48.CFTF from America, the two regulators, said that, on numerous
:03:48. > :03:54.occasions there, has been serious unlawful conduct. There's a real
:03:54. > :03:58.wider issue about banking that we, duty bound, the three of us as
:03:58. > :04:04.members of Parliament have to try to get to the bottom of. George
:04:04. > :04:09.Osborne told Spectator, Louise, that Ed Balls was involved, and the
:04:09. > :04:15.people around Gordon Brown and Ed Balls he named specifically in
:04:16. > :04:20.fixing those LIBOR rates. No, he didn't. That was in Spectator this
:04:20. > :04:24.week. It is important you don't misquote what George said. He said
:04:24. > :04:30.people around Gordon Brown had been involved in making these calls. He
:04:30. > :04:34.said Ed Balls had questions to answer over collating the system.
:04:34. > :04:42.He said Shriti Vadera on regulation. I understand if the cap fits wear
:04:42. > :04:47.it, but I think Lady Vadera has questions to answer. This is why a
:04:47. > :04:55.parliamentary committee cannot be trusted. And that is absolutely
:04:55. > :05:01.true. APPLAUSE John Lydon? There's a real deeper problems going on in
:05:01. > :05:09.this. I'm just a bystander. I don't know anything at all except I have
:05:09. > :05:13.a Barclays account, right? And that becomes a problem to me. I know
:05:14. > :05:17.City banks are related to this. I live in America and I have a
:05:17. > :05:22.Citibank account. It worries me that this kind of shenanigans,
:05:22. > :05:28.right? Everybody seems to know there is crime here. How on earth
:05:28. > :05:38.is Parliament going to discuss this really when both sides, left and
:05:38. > :05:38.
:05:38. > :05:45.right, are connected to this? It doesn't... APPLAUSE This doesn't
:05:45. > :05:51.just go back to Brown, right? This is part of the ongoing problem. Mr
:05:51. > :05:57.Diamond comes from Wall Street right? Hello! Both parties love
:05:57. > :06:03.this idea. They are fiddling with rates, right? They are affecting
:06:03. > :06:07.the world and everything we used to count on has been dependable and
:06:07. > :06:12.accurate is now going to be discussed by these argumentative
:06:12. > :06:18.chaps? There is never going to be a conclusion in that. Who do you want
:06:18. > :06:24.to see do it? Listen, if I nick a motor, right, I'm going to be up
:06:24. > :06:34.before the judge, the rozzer, right? Hello, same thing. APPLAUSE
:06:34. > :06:34.
:06:34. > :06:38.A judge. Independent. The man over there on the left. If you are going
:06:38. > :06:43.to go proportionate about it, if you want to do something about it,
:06:43. > :06:48.I read recently that somebody last year got jailed for six months for
:06:48. > :06:51.stealing in the riots. �3.50 worth of water. If you are going to apply
:06:51. > :07:01.the same proportion to the bankers, I don't think they are going to see
:07:01. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:10.the light of day are they? APPLAUSE The woman up there in red. That
:07:10. > :07:15.thief didn't get �120 million for being sacked right.
:07:15. > :07:20.I frankly think it is a shame that we've got to have this debate. But
:07:20. > :07:25.that said, it doesn't surprise me. We look at what the bankers have
:07:25. > :07:28.done in terms of getting us in this financial crisis in the first place.
:07:28. > :07:33.Their greed, their immoral decisions have put the working
:07:33. > :07:38.people of this country into dire straits. And it is a false class
:07:38. > :07:42.structure now isn't it, bankers and investors. They are the ones, the
:07:42. > :07:47.most vulnerable people in society... And none of us count any more.
:07:47. > :07:55.What's the point in us voting if this lot are going to have a nice
:07:55. > :08:01.quiet debate. John, I love you, but let me er... You love him but want
:08:01. > :08:05.to be able to get a word in! most vulnerable in society are
:08:05. > :08:11.paying their these mistakes. When David Cameron took control of the
:08:11. > :08:14.Conservative Party, �17 million he's had in terms from the City, in
:08:15. > :08:18.backing his campaigns and the Bollinger. He doesn't want the
:08:18. > :08:22.judges to find out the real truth of what they've been doing in
:08:22. > :08:31.London. He wants to keep it inhouse and that's what he will continue to
:08:31. > :08:35.try to do. APPLAUSE Dominic Lawson, do you agree with that? Going back
:08:35. > :08:40.to the original question, the full judicial inquiry is certainly a
:08:40. > :08:45.good idea in one respect, that if George Osborne... A judge sitting
:08:45. > :08:50.there and people under oath? Yes. If George Osborne is right, that Ed
:08:50. > :08:55.Balls maybe and Shriti Vadera certainly were engaged in
:08:55. > :09:00.shenanigans. Sorry, Shriti Vadera engaged in shin an begans? Well,
:09:00. > :09:05.she was allegedly trying to get... Careful where you go here.
:09:05. > :09:11.allegation is she was trying to influence Barclays in pushing the
:09:11. > :09:15.LIBOR rate down so that it appeared more solvent than it was. If that's
:09:15. > :09:20.the allegation, a full judicial inquiry would be the better way to
:09:20. > :09:24.do it. But as Dominic Grieve pointed out... I think both of us
:09:24. > :09:28.know that there's a lot of heads that could roll in this. What do
:09:28. > :09:32.you say to that woman's point that everybody is engaged in a cover-up,
:09:32. > :09:37.the Tory leader had money from the City, people don't want to get,
:09:37. > :09:40.that the politicians don't want the truth to come out, they have the
:09:40. > :09:45.arrangey bargey about who was responsible. Banks employ 1 million
:09:45. > :09:50.people in this country. 1 million people. You will know people who
:09:50. > :09:53.work for banks. You have to get it into your head, you have two
:09:53. > :09:56.different things here - the clearing banks, the high street
:09:56. > :10:01.banks, which are traditional banks as you would understand it. And you
:10:01. > :10:06.have the trading operations, which Bob Diamond was a master of, which
:10:06. > :10:13.he came from. What they have done is used the depositors' money as a
:10:13. > :10:18.kind of free cash. You don't get interest, to spend in the markets.
:10:18. > :10:21.What I've been arguing about for four years is they have to be
:10:21. > :10:25.separated. At the moment, the taxpayer stands behind them. I
:10:25. > :10:29.don't mind taxpayers standing behind clearing banks. I do mind
:10:30. > :10:35.them standing behind these traders. I mind it very much. OK. You need
:10:35. > :10:38.to make that distinction. When you talk about the banks, they are two
:10:38. > :10:43.different cultures. The problem is someone likes Bob Diamond talks
:10:43. > :10:47.about the culture of Barclays. You cannot have a single culture with
:10:47. > :10:53.two such disparate arms. They have to be separated. The Vickers
:10:53. > :10:58.commission on banking says it happen until 2018. That's far too
:10:58. > :11:04.slov. Ed Davey, the question was what's to turn this inquiry turning
:11:04. > :11:07.into a political squabble. What will will it do? I think Select
:11:07. > :11:10.Committees can do a fantastic function, can bring parties
:11:10. > :11:14.together. We've got three things to fix in this banking crisis and we
:11:14. > :11:19.need to fix the banking industry, because it is critical for our
:11:19. > :11:23.economy. First, we've got to hold bankers who've done wrong things,
:11:23. > :11:27.as the FSA and the UK Department of Justice showed, hold them to
:11:27. > :11:30.account. I think it is right that the Serious Fraud Office is
:11:30. > :11:34.considering whether there've been criminal acts taking player,
:11:34. > :11:40.breachs of the Fraud Act, false accounting. If that is proven,
:11:40. > :11:45.those people should go to jail. me as a regular citizen, please
:11:45. > :11:50.explain, you do agree that a crime has been committed, right? I'm a
:11:50. > :11:53.regular human. You've talked about crime here. I think it is really
:11:53. > :12:01.important don't you that we understand. If it is generally
:12:01. > :12:05.accepted that a crime has been committed... You have to allege a
:12:05. > :12:10.crime and then go before a judge and jury. You can't say a crime has
:12:10. > :12:12.been committed but allegedly. Forgive me, I know nothing.
:12:12. > :12:17.need to have the Serious Fraud Office investigate. That's the
:12:17. > :12:20.legal and proper way. Then bankest who've committed crimes can face
:12:20. > :12:23.the punishment. The second thing we need to do, we need to sort out the
:12:23. > :12:26.banking system, is make sure the regulation is right. Whether it is
:12:26. > :12:30.in the LIBOR system or whether banks generally, because we need to
:12:30. > :12:35.put the banking system right in this country. We have a banking
:12:35. > :12:40.reform Bill in January. That could go a long way following the Vickers
:12:40. > :12:43.commission, a massive inquiry. Let's get to that. It is important
:12:43. > :12:46.that people see, changing the banking has been three ways.
:12:46. > :12:51.Holding the people to account, changing the regulation and then
:12:51. > :12:56.changing the culture. The question, is what's best way to do an inquiry
:12:56. > :13:02.into changing the culture? I think a Select Committee process is a
:13:02. > :13:08.better way than a judge-led inquiry. Alan Johnson. Bob Diamond explained
:13:08. > :13:12.on Wednesday there are Minister Miss Whitehall, he said, who is
:13:13. > :13:16.hearing Barclays is always high, Ministers in Whitehall, Dominic on
:13:17. > :13:20.your left said Shriti Vadera is the Minister involved in this. Do you
:13:20. > :13:30.think this is going to be brought up by a committee or shouldn't she
:13:30. > :13:34.be Scotland swear an oath before a That's the poifpblt sorry we failed
:13:34. > :13:39.in making this become a political dog fight. John's right. Eventually,
:13:39. > :13:42.there will be a judge-led forensic inquiry questioning led by a QC, Ed
:13:43. > :13:45.Balls to be there, Shriti Vadera to be there, anyone you want to be
:13:45. > :13:49.there, because Dominic's right, it's a completely different
:13:49. > :13:53.environment for the public to see that you have got to the bottom of
:13:53. > :13:58.this. You got voted down on this in the House of Commons? Yes and so we
:13:58. > :14:01.have got to get on with what we've got at the moment. That's why we've
:14:01. > :14:05.got to get over this political squabbling for the work that will
:14:06. > :14:14.be done by Andrew Turry. But you... Listen, you interrupted me once,
:14:14. > :14:17.try not to do it again. I respect and rye Tyrrie. There will be a
:14:17. > :14:21.judge-led inquiry. This is the tip of the iceberg. There are another
:14:21. > :14:26.20 banks being investigated by people who called this serious,
:14:26. > :14:29.unlawful conduct. That's the words of the two regulators whose report
:14:29. > :14:33.was published this week. Eventually, the Prime Minister's going to be
:14:33. > :14:39.dragged kicking and screaming to a full public inquiry judge-led. It's
:14:39. > :14:44.a shame he didn't do it now. OK. You, Sir, in the front?
:14:44. > :14:47.APPLAUSE It baffles me because we were here
:14:47. > :14:51.four years ago when the banks collapsed and we heard exactly the
:14:51. > :14:54.same thing, this is what we are going to do, this is how it will be
:14:54. > :14:58.sorted out. This is nearly five years on and now we are being told
:14:58. > :15:01.to trust everybody again, but the bankers are just going to do it
:15:01. > :15:06.again. When will we realise that we can't do anything about it, we
:15:06. > :15:09.can't do anything about it, unless we all take our money out of the
:15:09. > :15:15.banks now and they don't have any control over us whatsoever, there's
:15:15. > :15:18.nothing we can do. The man in spectacles there? It's not often I
:15:18. > :15:23.would say I agree with a Liberal Democrat, but I agree with Dave
:15:23. > :15:29.dauf Dave that select commits can be great but yesterday they weren't.
:15:29. > :15:33.They grilled Bob Diamond yesterday and they didn't get any answers out
:15:33. > :15:36.of him because they were too busy Tweeting. One was even advertising
:15:36. > :15:40.to News Channels when he could do interviews and that's why I have no
:15:40. > :15:43.faith in a public inquiry. How do you know that they were doing that?
:15:43. > :15:48.It was in the news this morning. Being Tweeted by people, as far as
:15:48. > :15:51.I know, suggesting better questions than the one they were asking. I
:15:51. > :15:56.won't say who it was but somebody was sending them messages.
:15:56. > :16:00.what's not coming out in the debate is the action the Government is
:16:00. > :16:05.taking. We have a financial services Bill... You have had a
:16:05. > :16:10.debate today all about it and you are going to have a public inquiry.
:16:10. > :16:13.You are making the same mistake. We are setting up a financial conduct
:16:13. > :16:19.authority, much tougher one than before. We have a banking reform
:16:19. > :16:24.Bill coming before the House in January which will implement some
:16:24. > :16:27.radical reforms. Proposed by the Vickers commission. The woman in
:16:27. > :16:30.the spectacles on the left? wants to use a Select Committee but
:16:30. > :16:34.the problem is, that will be chosen by Government and that's where half
:16:34. > :16:39.the problem lies in the first place so I don't see... It will be cross
:16:39. > :16:42.party actually won't it? The man in the back with the white shirt?
:16:42. > :16:45.very good reason why the politicians should not be allowed
:16:45. > :16:50.to conduct this inquiry. Because the terrible mess we're in, with
:16:50. > :16:54.banking, deregulated markets where anything goes, tax evasion and
:16:54. > :16:58.offshore accounts all this sort of thing is a haudge political failure
:16:58. > :17:02.because it's the politicians who allowed this to happen, not just in
:17:02. > :17:07.this country. Look at America and Europe. Look at the euro. That's
:17:07. > :17:12.another classic political failure. You know. Who would you like to
:17:12. > :17:16.have inquire into this? It needs to be an independent inquiry. Having
:17:17. > :17:20.looked at Leveson, at least people have to swear under oath there. Bob
:17:20. > :17:24.Diamond's performance yesterday, a man earning �23 million a year who
:17:24. > :17:29.says, just like the Murdochs say, I don't know anything about all of
:17:29. > :17:32.this, you know, and you are not going to get it by good people on
:17:32. > :17:37.the trez shi Select Committee because they are not all exprts on
:17:37. > :17:40.the minutiae of banking. We need a complete new appraisal of the whole
:17:40. > :17:44.system, not just banking. This won't be sorted out by just
:17:44. > :17:48.imposing a few more regular laces on the banks. We need to look at
:17:48. > :17:52.offshore financial centres where there's tax evasion, money
:17:52. > :17:56.laundering, fraud and all sorts of illegal money passing through there.
:17:56. > :17:59.Corporations are dodging tax by setting up in the Cayman Islands.
:17:59. > :18:02.Did anybody notice that Manchester United ice just set up a company in
:18:02. > :18:07.the Cayman Islands when it floats on the stock market apparently.
:18:07. > :18:10.Why? Because those sorts of places are secret. It's a black hole into
:18:11. > :18:13.which people can take their money and then it comes out a totally
:18:13. > :18:23.different form and the authorities know nothing about it. Thank you
:18:23. > :18:26.
:18:26. > :18:29.very much. Two brief points from the panel?
:18:29. > :18:34.Louise Mensch? I did sit on the committee which opposed the
:18:34. > :18:38.Murdochs. One thing that took a long time as we looked into the
:18:38. > :18:41.culture of News Corporation International was that we didn't
:18:41. > :18:46.have QCs advising us and my understanding is with this inquiry,
:18:46. > :18:49.the witnesses will be put on oath and there will be QCs advising. If
:18:49. > :18:52.Select Committees and Joint Committees have the been fit of
:18:52. > :18:55.somebody like Mr Jay helping them out with forensic questioning
:18:55. > :18:59.before, they would have been a lot more effective so it will be good
:18:59. > :19:06.to have people on oath and use QCs. We have got to legislate. We have
:19:06. > :19:09.got a Bill in Jan, people want an inquiry but also action -- January.
:19:09. > :19:15.There's no way the House of Commons can put people on oath is there?
:19:15. > :19:19.Yes, there is, absolutely. We have the choice. Are you saying this
:19:19. > :19:23.committee should do that? Yes, we have the option to put people on
:19:23. > :19:27.oath or not. All penalties of purgery. Also, we didn't have QCs,
:19:27. > :19:32.we were under-resourced, this inquiry will have QCs and we'll put
:19:32. > :19:38.people under oath which is a key step. That for me I think you are
:19:38. > :19:42.talking nonsense again because I mine Murdoch got away with murder
:19:42. > :19:46.didn't he? Remember the questions he was asked and he just humiliated
:19:46. > :19:49.the stupid panel because he's a smart fella. I don't think that's
:19:49. > :19:53.fair on my colleague Tom Watson, to be honest. He's representing
:19:53. > :19:57.himself, throwing out red herings left, right and centre to take the
:19:57. > :20:05.blame away from himself. But the point is that bankers live in a
:20:05. > :20:08.culture above and beyond all of us. Well, they do. And Governments...
:20:09. > :20:15.APPLAUSE Successive Governments have allowed that to happen. I need
:20:15. > :20:19.to live in a world of trust. How's about you? If I can't trust that
:20:19. > :20:24.and how on earth are you going to question youfrs? That's the point
:20:24. > :20:29.because trust is a moral judgment that one person makes. No, it's a
:20:29. > :20:32.value. Moral's a religion, please. No, come plaitly separate. It's a
:20:33. > :20:39.moral question. You see, everyone's thought that the issue is one of
:20:39. > :20:45.regulation. It actually isn't. I mean, HSBC has 3,000 compliance
:20:45. > :20:48.officers, Barclays has over 1,000. You have had the FSA, an absolutely
:20:48. > :20:52.useless organisation. They didn't see the 2008 crash coming, they all
:20:52. > :20:56.paid themselves bonuses. The regulators, the FSA paid themselves
:20:56. > :20:59.bonuses after missing the credit crunch and people are going up a
:20:59. > :21:02.complete blind alley if they think it can be done by regulation. It's
:21:02. > :21:07.a question of character, you are right, it's a question of trust.
:21:07. > :21:12.It's a question of my word is my bond, and you cannot deal with it
:21:12. > :21:15.in a legalistic fashion. How do you get back to that? Because of what I
:21:15. > :21:20.said earlier. You have to get rid of the so-called casino element and
:21:20. > :21:26.completely split them out. You have two different cultures and, by the
:21:26. > :21:31.way, I think... I would politely call it the... If the traders don't
:21:31. > :21:34.have access to the vast pal of free money Of our money? Well, of our
:21:34. > :21:38.money, they'll find it very difficult to have a business at all.
:21:38. > :21:43.A brief comment madam, you have been waving your hand at me for the
:21:43. > :21:46.last five minutes, then we'll move on? It's great to haar and
:21:46. > :21:51.interesting to haar the process that we'll be going through, but
:21:51. > :21:54.please spare a thought for those people because of fixed rates that
:21:54. > :21:58.have lost their homes, that have lost their businesses because the
:21:58. > :22:06.rates have been fixed. I mean it's fantastic to hear what you are
:22:06. > :22:08.going to do. There are probably more 20 -- 20 more banks that will
:22:08. > :22:12.be investigated, Mr Johnson, but please remember the people that
:22:12. > :22:16.have lost out and how will you compensate all those people who've
:22:16. > :22:19.had their homes are possess and have lost their businesses?
:22:19. > :22:25.APPLAUSE Thank you.
:22:25. > :22:29.We must go on. If you want to join the debate, if you are Tweeting
:22:29. > :22:33.tonight, you can Tweet us, text us. Last week I said texting was under
:22:33. > :22:41.threat and the result was we got twice as many texts as wetially get
:22:41. > :22:45.and texts are catching up on the Tweets so watch out -- as we
:22:45. > :22:50.usually get and texts are catching up on the Tweets so watch out.
:22:50. > :22:56.Tweeting, you still have to find that for yourself. A question from
:22:56. > :23:05.Daniel Clarke, please? Will cutting the British Army from
:23:05. > :23:10.102,000 to 82,000 make a threat for the UK? The cuts announced today
:23:10. > :23:15.from 102,000 to 82,000 putting the UK at risk? Alan Johnson? I think
:23:15. > :23:19.it's a dangerous world out there. There's nothing to suggest it's
:23:19. > :23:24.getting less dangerous. I think it's hardly the time to reduce the
:23:24. > :23:29.British Army to the level it was during the war. Government does
:23:29. > :23:33.have an issue here. There have to be savings made. What they did with
:23:33. > :23:40.the defence spending review which was right at the time of their time
:23:40. > :23:44.in office in 2010 was a quick-and- dirty exercise -- quick-and-dirty
:23:44. > :23:47.exercise. As a result, we are seeing all kinds of mistakes. There
:23:47. > :23:52.was a problem with the jets they were using, they had to do a U-turn
:23:52. > :23:58.on that. The other thing I find really difficult is the regular
:23:58. > :24:02.Army's coming down to 82,000 and the reserves is due to go up from
:24:03. > :24:06.15,000 to 30,000. Why do you find that difficult to understand?
:24:06. > :24:09.Because of this. If you are going to get reservists, they need to
:24:09. > :24:14.take something like a year off every five years to go and train
:24:14. > :24:17.and do a tour of duty. You have got to find employers who'll let them
:24:17. > :24:20.go. There's not even been the beginning of that exercise yet so.
:24:20. > :24:27.The regular Army's going to be reduced before we even know whether
:24:27. > :24:33.we can get the reservists we need because that's the theory behind
:24:33. > :24:37.this. So I sadly think - for regiments - I'm a Yorkshire MP and
:24:37. > :24:40.the third Yorkshire regiment that used to be the Yorkshire green
:24:40. > :24:43.jackets, there's a lot of emotion attached to this but it's not been
:24:44. > :24:48.well thought out. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a further U-
:24:48. > :24:50.turn that comes down the road on this part. Oh, really? I think the
:24:50. > :24:58.financial necessity is not the justification? Well, because I
:24:58. > :25:04.think in terms of the expertise in the Armed Forces and in terms of
:25:04. > :25:07.that very volatile situation out there, the haven'ts that Harold
:25:07. > :25:12.Macmillan said may mean that slowing down, it might mean that
:25:12. > :25:15.eventually it's a cut but not a cut of that kind of proportion, I'm not
:25:15. > :25:20.sure. Ed Davey, is that analysis right, that you are flying a kite,
:25:20. > :25:23.it's not going to happen by 2020? Not at all. It's a well planned set
:25:23. > :25:28.of proposals because the troops who'll be leaving the Army will
:25:28. > :25:33.leave over a period of years and we are building up the reserve Army
:25:33. > :25:38.after a very detailed report done by General Sir nick Houghton into
:25:38. > :25:43.how you can do that so you can enSuhr that the Territorial Army is
:25:43. > :25:47.much more integrated than it was in the past. If you can remember, even
:25:47. > :25:51.after the cuts have been made, Britain will still have the fourth
:25:51. > :25:56.largest defence budget in the world. We'll still be able to take the
:25:56. > :26:00.same sorts of actions - I hope we won't have to - but I hope we'll be
:26:00. > :26:04.automobile to undertake them. The defence budget was massively
:26:04. > :26:08.overspent. �38 billion overspent. We had to take action. It's a
:26:08. > :26:11.difficult decision because some of the soldiers who'll be leaving the
:26:11. > :26:15.Army have served with great distinction and bravery and it's
:26:15. > :26:18.always sad to see such saufs go. That's why I'm really keen to make
:26:18. > :26:21.sure the resettlement programme that we'll offer the troops is of
:26:21. > :26:26.the highst quality to make sure that when these people leave the
:26:26. > :26:35.Army they get the help, the housing and employment. That's critical.
:26:35. > :26:39.That's fine, but you don't believe it's putting the public at risk.
:26:39. > :26:44.The man with the grey shirt? It's all right having the budget but
:26:44. > :26:49.it's the way it's used. I read recently where there are millions
:26:49. > :26:54.of pounds worth of worthless supplies in the MoD supply depots
:26:54. > :26:59.which are all out, a lot of them are outdated or surplus to
:26:59. > :27:04.requirements. I think basically, the problem is down to the people
:27:04. > :27:08.in Whitehall who again award themselves bonuses and the people
:27:08. > :27:13.who're having to take the main cuts are the par people on the ground,
:27:13. > :27:21.the soldiers who devote a lot of time and effort and bravery to make
:27:21. > :27:30.sure that our country's safe. Dominic Lawson? Can I just say...
:27:30. > :27:35.England, love the paratroopers, right. John... I've told fell lass,
:27:36. > :27:40.they laugh at this, cutting the budget, they're called crap hats
:27:40. > :27:44.really. But the thing is, hello, how many wars are we going to get
:27:44. > :27:48.involved with accidentally? Please, don't be doing this without a
:27:48. > :27:55.proper military? One of the most beautiful things about Britain,
:27:55. > :27:59.apart from the NHS and the free education, is the British Army!
:27:59. > :28:05.Hear, hear... APPLAUSE
:28:05. > :28:11.I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude but I needed to express that point.
:28:11. > :28:15.I'll bring you in on each question. You won't always get the first
:28:15. > :28:18.shout. Dominic, why do we have to have the fourth largest budget
:28:18. > :28:21.after America, Russia and China in the world? I don't think we do.
:28:21. > :28:27.First of all, the point from the gentleman there is a very good one.
:28:27. > :28:33.If we look at Israel, it's roughly the same procurement budget as we
:28:33. > :28:41.do. You would say in very trying circumstances. We have a defence
:28:41. > :28:45.procurement staff, men behind desks of 23,500. Theirs is 430. OK. It
:28:45. > :28:48.puts in perspective the way we run our Army and Armed Forces and the
:28:48. > :28:53.way that country... The man there is right, that the money is going
:28:53. > :28:57.down the drain? And it's that old thing of lions led by donkeys and
:28:57. > :29:01.the MoD and the procurement business has been an absolute
:29:01. > :29:06.scandal which has probably cost this condition trias much as the
:29:06. > :29:10.banks. Isn't bureaucracy one of the great problems that we face in this
:29:10. > :29:14.country in the NHS? Dare I say, in the BBC? In the Army, and
:29:14. > :29:19.everywhere you look now, there are masses of bureaucrat who is appear
:29:19. > :29:23.to look after each other? Who is it who decides where the cuts should
:29:23. > :29:28.come - the bureaucrats. They don't cut themselves. It's fairly obvious.
:29:28. > :29:34.But going back to the point, I would question Alan who says we
:29:34. > :29:37.shouldn't have an Army that's as small as it was at the time of the
:29:37. > :29:40.war, we had an empire covering a third of the globe there. It's not
:29:40. > :29:44.surprising if our Army is smaller than it was then and it should be.
:29:44. > :29:48.When I heard the former Head of The Armed Forces, Richard Dannatt on
:29:48. > :29:58.the Today programme saying after this we will not be able to fight
:29:58. > :30:02.
:30:02. > :30:07.two wars simultaneously, all I felt Given the context of the argument
:30:07. > :30:10.so far, it is clinical in terms of talking about finances, absolute
:30:10. > :30:14.numbers, I don't think we should forget that we've still got
:30:14. > :30:19.soldiers dying in Afghanistan, and for the families back here to feel
:30:19. > :30:23.that perhaps the reason why their loved ones fighting for us is
:30:23. > :30:27.suddenly being undervalued by saying we can afford to lose 20,000
:30:27. > :30:31.of them, that they are too expensive. It is quite difficult to
:30:31. > :30:35.make that clinical argument about the finances without remembering
:30:35. > :30:40.the emotional side, the loss that people have felt. APPLAUSE Thank
:30:40. > :30:45.you. Do we have any soldiers here, or
:30:45. > :30:48.people in the armed forces? I was in the Army for six years. I left a
:30:48. > :30:54.couple of years ago. It is appalling for each lad that's got
:30:54. > :30:58.to leave. They are going to have unknown futures by 2020. Even worse
:30:58. > :31:03.indictment on this country that we can't maintain an Army of at least
:31:03. > :31:07.100,000. We can't afford to kit them. We can't afford to maintain
:31:07. > :31:11.them. I think that's worse than what's been planned. Louise Mensch?
:31:11. > :31:17.I do think we have to put the Army on a sustainable footing. This is
:31:17. > :31:22.what the commanders said is needed for a modern, more flexible force.
:31:22. > :31:26.I agree with Dominic. We are no longary colonial power. There was a
:31:26. > :31:29.lot of anger over the Iraq war and the reasons that led to the Iraq
:31:29. > :31:33.war. I think people are broadly accepting that we want a flexible
:31:33. > :31:39.Army that. Said, I do hope, speaking as a backbencher, that if
:31:39. > :31:46.we are going to plough more money and effort into the reserves and
:31:46. > :31:51.bring them into the regular Army that we back them up. The
:31:51. > :31:58.territorial base in Corby is dreadful, so if you are listening,
:31:58. > :32:02.Philip Hammond... It is a crying shame, and I said this many my
:32:02. > :32:10.maiden speech, we are the only country in the English-speaking
:32:10. > :32:19.world not to have a dedicated veteran's administration. Although
:32:19. > :32:23.we have a veteran's Minister with some responsibilities, we don't
:32:23. > :32:28.have a dedicated office. In terms of the Army, a modern and flexible
:32:28. > :32:30.one is a good one. A new question, from Matthew Allen. The Home
:32:30. > :32:36.Secretary is planning changes to the citizenship test. What question
:32:36. > :32:41.would you like to see included? This is the test you have to take
:32:41. > :32:45.the get British citizenship. The Home Secretary is going to focus on
:32:46. > :32:53.more mortgage and history of British achievements, to describe
:32:54. > :32:57.Britain as a fantastic place to live. The Beatles and Byron will be
:32:57. > :33:04.there. Florence Nightingale... There's a lot of changes to be made.
:33:04. > :33:09.I tried to present test today and I failed. Come do Britain and meet
:33:09. > :33:15.Johnny Rotten. How you doing! Lydon, what do you think is the
:33:15. > :33:22.test of British citizenship? Diversity. A complete understanding
:33:22. > :33:27.of and love of your neighbour, your culture, your country, and the
:33:27. > :33:35.inclusion of all religious race, creeds and colours and philosophys.
:33:35. > :33:41.We are an island culture. APPLAUSE We all -- we always have been. We
:33:41. > :33:49.must keep our shores open. This is what improves us. Hello. I'm a
:33:49. > :33:52.classic example of mix and match. Hello England. APPLAUSE Hello
:33:52. > :33:58.Britain. What question... I don't know. Shall we include the Scots.
:33:58. > :34:05.They want to be independent from us. LAUGHTER Maybe special questions
:34:05. > :34:09.for the Scots. You do remember when Brown was Prime Minister. He was a
:34:09. > :34:14.Scottish fellowo, Prime Minister of Britain. You try getting an
:34:14. > :34:19.Englishman as Prime Minister of Scotland. It may happen. Huzlement
:34:19. > :34:25.Britain. Alan Johnson, what questions, you were Secretary of
:34:25. > :34:31.State for Education once weren't you? I was once, for most things.
:34:32. > :34:36.Don't ask me a question. How are you going to spell potato?
:34:36. > :34:43.Schools must be open 150 days a year, 170 days a year, 190 days a
:34:43. > :34:48.year or 200 days a year. I haven't got a clue. 190. Well done!
:34:49. > :34:55.APPLAUSE Here is your passport. What do you think? What's the point
:34:55. > :35:00.of these test and what's the essence of them. David Blunkett
:35:00. > :35:03.introduced this citizenship ceremony. You can go to your local
:35:03. > :35:08.Town Hall and it is incredibly moving. These are people that have
:35:08. > :35:12.passed whatever test. They want to be British citizens. They bring
:35:12. > :35:16.their families along. It is a crucial moment for them. They sing
:35:16. > :35:20.the national anthem. They receive this certificate of citizenship,
:35:20. > :35:24.which never happened before. It is actually very moving, what it means
:35:25. > :35:28.to them to be a British citizen. So for as I'm concerned, if those
:35:29. > :35:34.people, they need to learn to speak the language, they need to know
:35:34. > :35:38.something of our history, know our values and abide by our values of
:35:38. > :35:44.free speech and democracy. If they can do that, the questions that are
:35:44. > :35:47.asked are a secondary issue. I think that we should continue this
:35:47. > :35:52.route to citizenship. If those have the kind of questions they are
:35:52. > :35:58.asking, I don't know about new questions, I would like too look at
:35:58. > :36:03.the existing ones and change a few. To be a citizen of this country you
:36:03. > :36:09.don't necessarily need to know how many days a school is open each
:36:09. > :36:16.year. How many people in the UK up to 19 are there, 13 million, 14
:36:16. > :36:20.million or 16 million. Hm... 13 million? Wrong. OK. What do you
:36:20. > :36:25.think? How should this be tested. The Home Secretary is seriously
:36:25. > :36:29.suctsing a new range of tests. agree with -- suggesting a new
:36:29. > :36:34.range of tests. I sat the life in the UK test a few times, as my ex-
:36:34. > :36:39.husband is American. We wanted him to be able to get his visa and we
:36:39. > :36:45.had to practise the test. You have to get a high mark, something like
:36:45. > :36:48.75%. If you get even a couple of questions wrong, you are out. They
:36:48. > :36:54.ask random questions like how many people there are in the UK. You
:36:54. > :37:00.have to be a statistics decision. What that has to do with the shared
:37:00. > :37:04.culture and heritage that people coming to our country need, I don't
:37:05. > :37:08.know. We value and celebrate our imgrants. We were lucky enough to
:37:08. > :37:11.be born in this country. These people are making the choice to
:37:12. > :37:16.come to this country, who wants to embrace our culture and traditions.
:37:16. > :37:20.So let's ask him a bit about our culture and traditions and history
:37:20. > :37:24.and less about how many 19-year- olds there are in the UK and how
:37:24. > :37:31.many school days there are a year, baize bet half the audience
:37:31. > :37:35.wouldn't know either. APPLAUSE By the way, it's 15 million. I don't
:37:35. > :37:40.know how they can justify by doing a questionnaire, a quiz, whatever
:37:40. > :37:44.you want to call it. If they get them wrong or right, we are talking
:37:44. > :37:50.about people's lives living in England, Britain, Scotland, Wales,
:37:50. > :37:55.whatever. I'm trying to think in my head, what happens if they don't
:37:55. > :37:58.get it right do, they go? They have another go I think. These are
:37:58. > :38:04.people's lives and their families and it all depends on this one test.
:38:04. > :38:10.I do not agree with it. You do agree with any kind of conditions,
:38:10. > :38:14.like speaking English or not? and no. My family have come from
:38:15. > :38:19.Cyprus. They've lived in England for 30 years. They didn't speak a
:38:19. > :38:23.word of English. They came to this country, worked hard, did
:38:23. > :38:27.everything, brought us up here. We've all been Edcate. They didn't
:38:27. > :38:32.do a test. They've been send. I don't know why all of a sudden we
:38:32. > :38:36.have to do a test like this. That's just my opinion. Dominic Lawson, do
:38:36. > :38:39.you agree? I do think an English test is a good thing, because it is
:38:39. > :38:44.very important for people to integrate. It is very hard to
:38:44. > :38:49.integrate if you cannot understand what people are saying. It cuts you
:38:49. > :38:56.off, isolates you. It can create ghettos. I agree with a point Alan
:38:56. > :39:02.made. My grandfather was the first in my family to be born in this
:39:02. > :39:06.country. His father was born in Russia. They were more English than
:39:06. > :39:09.the English, it meant so much. I think that's true of a lot of
:39:09. > :39:15.immigrant families. They feel passionately because they may be
:39:15. > :39:19.getting away from something which is not so pleasant as this country.
:39:19. > :39:23.Ed Davey, what do you make of the proposals? I think we can really
:39:23. > :39:27.improve on the questions. You've proved that tonight. When I took
:39:27. > :39:30.the test, trying to help someone, I had problems with the questions too.
:39:30. > :39:35.We need questions to help the person taking the test. Help them
:39:35. > :39:39.live in the UK, so the questions are about how they can access the
:39:39. > :39:45.NHS, how they can help their kids go to school, sort out maybe their
:39:45. > :39:51.banking and how they can get jobs. Those are the things to help people.
:39:51. > :39:56.How many pages would you have on people sorting out their bank?
:39:56. > :40:00.would need quite a few! People who've taken the test, they do then
:40:00. > :40:05.feel a real connection to this country. If the questions can help
:40:05. > :40:08.emphasise the values that John was talking about, the values of
:40:08. > :40:14.tolerance, which I think this country has built this country, the
:40:14. > :40:17.value of openness. Then I think it can make a real difference. The key
:40:17. > :40:27.English value in my opinion and John is a brilliant example of it
:40:27. > :40:33.is ech sense trisity. That is where... - Ech sense tris ti.
:40:33. > :40:37.fact that you don't realise it. you are suggesting manuals for
:40:37. > :40:42.immigrants to understand how the NHS works and the deft systems,
:40:43. > :40:46.please can you give one to the people already here. The man in the
:40:46. > :40:53.striped shirt. Maybe we should turn the question around to the border
:40:53. > :40:58.control and have a question to them to ask how many people do they
:40:58. > :41:06.think asylum seekers are on the run at the moment. They wouldn't get it
:41:06. > :41:14.right would they? And you mad dam. When you come in power stop blaming
:41:14. > :41:18.the previous party for all the mess that we are in. APPLAUSE OK. That
:41:18. > :41:23.will be the day. Another question, from Sarena Kay,
:41:23. > :41:29.please. Is it time to stop fighting the war
:41:29. > :41:34.on drugs and, instead, control, regulate and tax it?
:41:34. > :41:39.S in in the context of the Justice Secretary saying this week we were
:41:39. > :41:47.losing the war on drugs. We've been engaged in a war on drugs for 30
:41:47. > :41:52.years and are plainly losing it, so should we control, regulate and tax
:41:52. > :41:55.drugs? Ed Davey? Kenneth Clarke has opened a debate, and that is brave
:41:56. > :41:59.of him to do that. It is important that we do have the debate. I've
:41:59. > :42:03.never been convinced by some of the arguments that say we could
:42:03. > :42:07.completely free up drugs, because I think there are real medical
:42:07. > :42:13.problems that result for people. People can be really vulnerable and
:42:13. > :42:18.can be abused by the people who are in drug communities. I personally
:42:18. > :42:21.think the real emphasis in drugs smools be on rehabilitation.
:42:21. > :42:26.Helping people and their families when they suffer from a drug
:42:26. > :42:31.addiction. The Government has begun to do more on that but we should
:42:31. > :42:36.continue that work. It is a lack of education again isn't it? People
:42:36. > :42:43.make bad mistakes, because they don't have the information. But for
:42:43. > :42:53.me personally, I don't want my drugs taxed. LAUGHTER
:42:53. > :42:54.
:42:54. > :43:00.APPLAUSE Follow that! They already are,
:43:00. > :43:06.because you are a smoker aren't you? You know nothing, Sir. But I
:43:06. > :43:13.happen to know from observation you smoke cigarettes. Dominic Lawson?
:43:13. > :43:17.Well, if I was trying to say how would I win the war on drugs, one
:43:17. > :43:21.thing would be to show people who take Class A drugs here what they
:43:21. > :43:27.are doing in parts of the world, in South America, the lawyer, is
:43:27. > :43:31.mayhem, the mass mutilation of people. It is really disgusting.
:43:31. > :43:36.And it can only be stopped by people here stopping. They need to
:43:36. > :43:40.realise the consequences of what they do, which are foul beyond
:43:40. > :43:46.anything we can possibly imagine. But as a practical thing, it is not
:43:46. > :43:54.something this country can do unilateral. There are treaties on
:43:54. > :43:59.narcotics. If we were unilateral to say, I'm not sure if we could.
:43:59. > :44:03.have the Dutch done? If you work to legalise it you would find all the
:44:03. > :44:06.public parks here and in London full. People would come here
:44:06. > :44:12.because it would be legal. You would not want your children to
:44:12. > :44:22.walk in those parks. It would be terrible. That's absolutely true.
:44:22. > :44:26.
:44:26. > :44:30.I've seen this in Europe. Trafalgar It's highly unlikely that the
:44:30. > :44:33.Americans would agree to a decriminalisation. It seems to be
:44:33. > :44:36.ironic that reducing our Armed Forces at this time, we are going
:44:36. > :44:41.to actually impact on or ability to stop production of drugs in
:44:41. > :44:44.countries like Afghanistan because something's got to give, by
:44:44. > :44:51.reducing police forces in the current climate, we'll stop the
:44:51. > :44:55.detection of drugs which is crucial and by reducing our frontline
:44:55. > :44:59.rehabilitation services, we'll stop the retabltaition of drug users, so
:44:59. > :45:06.can someone take a bigger look at the picture because it doesn't make
:45:06. > :45:10.sense. That's politics for you. think that's a very important point.
:45:10. > :45:15.APPLAUSE. You were Home Secretary, you
:45:15. > :45:19.famously sacked Professor Nutt for saying some drugs weren't as
:45:19. > :45:23.dangerous and should be decriminalised. But I wanted to ask
:45:23. > :45:26.you - that's an older story - but do you agree with Ken Clarke that
:45:26. > :45:30.we are plainly losing the war on drugs? No, I don't. But the point
:45:30. > :45:33.is, he was the Lord Chancellor, a member of the Cabinet, saying we've
:45:33. > :45:37.lost the war on drugs. Generally you would move on to the second
:45:37. > :45:40.part of the question. Normally when people say you have lost the war on
:45:41. > :45:44.drugs they then say they should be legalised and regulated. Ken Clarke
:45:45. > :45:50.said he was against that. Ken Clarke didn't say and here is Iraq,
:45:50. > :45:54.we are losing the war on drugs and here is a raft of proposals to win
:45:54. > :45:59.the war on drugs, he said nothing, big question mark. So I'm confused.
:45:59. > :46:03.The point that the man in the blue shirt made was really important.
:46:03. > :46:09.The last time I checked in 2010, we weren't losing the war on drugs, it
:46:09. > :46:13.was kind of a 1-1 draw if you like, but the number of adult users was
:46:13. > :46:19.at its lowest level since records began, young people down 5%. That's
:46:19. > :46:23.not the work of politicians. It's the work of loads of people out
:46:23. > :46:28.there working with young people in particular and teachers in schools
:46:28. > :46:31.and giving a very clear message. I'm afraid Ken Clarke gave a very
:46:31. > :46:37.confused message and maybe Ed can tell us whether it's Cabinet policy
:46:37. > :46:42.or whether it's just Ken kind of going off on one which I suspect.
:46:42. > :46:47.Well he did say, we keep trying every method we can to get on top
:46:47. > :46:50.of one of the worst social problems for the country. He didn't say
:46:50. > :46:53.nothing. Unemployment is the worst social problem. The Chancellor
:46:53. > :46:55.isn't responsible for drug policy, it's the Home Secretary. I would
:46:55. > :47:00.like to hear what the Home Secretary's got to say about this,
:47:00. > :47:03.does she think we are losing the war on drugs. Ken Clarke is a
:47:03. > :47:05.straight-talking politician, he's been around a long time, he doesn't
:47:06. > :47:09.like to posture. He was probably just telling the truth, talking
:47:09. > :47:13.about the failure of successive Governments or indeed any
:47:13. > :47:18.Government to be able to block drug use. We can all be politicians and
:47:18. > :47:22.say X is down 25% or whatever, it doesn't matter. The fact is that
:47:22. > :47:27.drugs are addictive, they destroy lives. We'll never actually totally
:47:27. > :47:30.win a war on drugs where we elimb nailt them from our streets and Ken
:47:30. > :47:37.Clarke was being honest when he recognised when he did in the
:47:37. > :47:42.speech he was giving the successive failures. We have to be honest
:47:42. > :47:47.about that -- eliminate them from our streets ches. The question is,
:47:47. > :47:55.what do we do about rehabilitation. I am someone that has used Class A
:47:55. > :47:58.drugs in the past. I said this when the Murdoch inquiry was going on.
:47:58. > :48:03.It's something that I regret incredibly in my youth that I
:48:04. > :48:08.messed with my brain. I said we all do stupid things that we do when we
:48:08. > :48:14.are young, it's had long-term mental effects on me, it's caused
:48:14. > :48:19.me to be more anxious than I need to be. It's not something that I
:48:19. > :48:27.glorify, I'm speaking from somebody with experience of it. Making it
:48:28. > :48:32.more easily available to people is exactly the wrong way to go.
:48:32. > :48:36.Just to clarify, what Class A drugs? I've never said. I've said
:48:36. > :48:39.they were Class A, I've never said what Class A drugs I did and I
:48:39. > :48:44.don't want to say so because I don't want to glorify the drugs and
:48:44. > :48:47.give them a great name. I did serious drugs and it messed with my
:48:47. > :48:50.head and it's a terrible thing and I don't want to see other young
:48:50. > :48:56.people exposed to that by legalisation. That'ss the wrong
:48:56. > :49:02.route. The woman there?
:49:02. > :49:06.Does the inclusion of athletes who have been convicted of drug abuse
:49:06. > :49:10.for the pursuit of an extra Olympic medal or the possibility of an
:49:10. > :49:14.extra medal send out the wrong messages to young people who might
:49:14. > :49:19.be wanting to dabble in drugs? Louise? I think that's one for the
:49:19. > :49:23.Olympic sporting authorities. I don't like the idea that people
:49:23. > :49:26.who've used performance enhancing drugs seems to be cheating. On the
:49:26. > :49:31.cheating grounds there should.medals for them frankly.
:49:31. > :49:36.John, you said you didn't want your drugs taxed. I was obviously being
:49:36. > :49:42.cynical and witty and ironic at the same time. What is your serious
:49:42. > :49:48.view? My point is always that I want everything in life to be
:49:48. > :49:53.transparent and that includes all information. Young people are
:49:53. > :49:58.denied information. In any way to fully understand what it's that's
:49:58. > :50:05.being offered to them. This is why you get unwanted pregnancies and
:50:05. > :50:09.stupid drug casualties. The things are out there. Why can't the
:50:09. > :50:14.correct information be easily accessed. What do you mean by the
:50:14. > :50:20.correct information? The effects of every single narcotic. Most are
:50:20. > :50:23.manufacturered by chemical companies anyway so you can begin
:50:23. > :50:31.right there. America is really quite frankly the biggest drug
:50:31. > :50:35.creator there is. Like taex si and things like this. -- ecstasy.
:50:35. > :50:40.Ecstasy is a drug America created to deal with psychotic patients -
:50:40. > :50:44.isn't that lovely. Legalisation of drugs? I don't see why these things
:50:44. > :50:49.should be illegal if the correct information is out there. Here's
:50:49. > :50:57.the problem. You can kill yourself with two table spoons of table salt.
:50:57. > :51:01.Are you now going to ban table salt? Come on. Come on nothing.
:51:01. > :51:09.Just because you've had a bad time of it which I don't pwheef, you are
:51:09. > :51:15.here, you are very coherent Class A! -- I don't pwheef. I'm not the
:51:15. > :51:24.only one. -- believe. I'm saying, let us as Haw man beings
:51:24. > :51:30.determine our own journey in life. No institution or Government. I
:51:30. > :51:38.have friends, family, culture to help. You've spoken before. Yes,
:51:38. > :51:42.you, mam? Sorry. You are shouting "you're wrong". I hear what you are
:51:42. > :51:46.saying, Louise. I don't know what the experiences of the people
:51:46. > :51:53.who're in this audience today, OK, but I've worked with young people
:51:53. > :51:56.OK who have... Well... Can I finish please. I've worked with young
:51:56. > :52:01.people who've abused not just A class drugs, we know what can
:52:01. > :52:05.happen there, but drugs that are classed as B and C class drugs.
:52:05. > :52:09.I've been in hospitals and Steen long-term effects it's had on young
:52:09. > :52:15.people and how their lives have changed. There is no way that nub
:52:15. > :52:24.this her with really sit here and say to me right now that those
:52:24. > :52:28.drugs should be legalised, OK, it's wrong and daipbgsrous.
:52:28. > :52:38.-- dangerous. I want you to understand, I'm not talking as a
:52:38. > :52:41.
:52:41. > :52:46.middle class t person from Tring here. We stop situations like this.
:52:46. > :52:50.There's bad parenting there and many, many things that aren't
:52:51. > :52:57.helping and it's always down to disinformation and it creates this
:52:57. > :53:02.sub culture that drugs are somehow cool and trendy. Eliminate that
:53:02. > :53:07.from the agenda. All right? The man in the chequed shirt in the middle
:53:07. > :53:12.-- checked shirt in the middle? we not listen to the scientists
:53:12. > :53:17.instead of firing them for voicing them what they found. Alan Johnson
:53:17. > :53:22.fired a scientist? Yes, Professor Nutt about the marijuana case when
:53:22. > :53:28.nobody's tied of marijuana use and more people die of peanut use.
:53:28. > :53:32.Let's not rake over old coals will you He wants to The advisory of
:53:32. > :53:36.council on drugs consist of more than just Professor Nutt and they
:53:36. > :53:40.were adamant of that. He was a Government spokesman. He's entitled
:53:40. > :53:44.to put his views forward as a member of the public but when you
:53:44. > :53:49.are the chair of that board and you are responsible to Government, then
:53:49. > :53:55.you don't go off making statements like "horse riding is more dawning
:53:55. > :53:57.rous than ecstasy". I mean there are lots of kid that I know in my
:53:57. > :54:05.constituency that are having terrible problems with ecstasy.
:54:05. > :54:10.There are not many who horse ride on the estate in Hull incidentally.
:54:10. > :54:16.Saying those things he's entitled to do, saying it as a government
:54:16. > :54:22.spokesman was not, he had to be sacked, he was. We talk about
:54:22. > :54:26.strictly legalising and drugs being illegal and not illegal. Drugs were
:54:26. > :54:32.decorrallised so they were ill Lyle but outside the criminal law, so
:54:32. > :54:37.instead of people being punished and arrest ford taking drugs, they
:54:37. > :54:41.were Jon winly receiving the help, that happened in Portugal? It's the
:54:42. > :54:46.NHS and the taxpayer that has to pick up the pieces. A last question.
:54:46. > :54:50.We haven't got very much time. It's a serious question, but I'll ask
:54:50. > :54:55.you to answer it briefly, from John Green, please?
:54:55. > :55:02.Does the panel think that Ian Brady should be allowed to die as he
:55:02. > :55:07.wishes or should he be kept alive at great public expense? The moors
:55:07. > :55:17.murderer who's been held under the Mental Health Act and is force fed
:55:17. > :55:22.
:55:22. > :55:27.even though he's been under that legislation for 12 years. Do you
:55:27. > :55:31.believe he should be allowed to die? I don't believe in voluntary
:55:31. > :55:37.euthanasia. I've always voted against legalising it and I went
:55:37. > :55:43.make an exception here. Louise Mensch? Mr Brady didn't give him
:55:43. > :55:47.the victims the choice of how they lived or died. So I'm afraid I have
:55:47. > :55:52.extraordinarily little sympathy in this case so let the tribunal do
:55:52. > :55:57.its job. Alan Johnson? I don't agree. That's
:55:57. > :56:02.playing to the gallery. You have euthanasia law or you don't. You
:56:02. > :56:05.don't pick and choose. I've seen things change. I'm with Ed, always
:56:05. > :56:09.voted against it. I think there's a mood out there that will change
:56:09. > :56:13.things, perhaps in the next ten years, and maybe the law will
:56:13. > :56:17.change. While the law is the law, it applies to everyone. Hang on,
:56:17. > :56:22.this is not euthanasia. He wishes to commit suicide by starving
:56:22. > :56:27.himself to death and he's not allowed to because of the mental
:56:27. > :56:32.health Act? It's a complete red herring. Host a paranoid
:56:32. > :56:35.schizophrenic, he's in a secure mental hospital. Originally he was
:56:35. > :56:39.not incarcerated. Originally he was thought to be sane. Then he could
:56:39. > :56:43.starve himself to death, nobody could stop him. That's not
:56:43. > :56:50.euthanasia, that's suicide. That's fine. But he is a paranoid
:56:50. > :56:54.schizophrenic and therefore the same thing applies. Obviously you
:56:54. > :56:57.have Jehova's witnesses who don't take blood transfusion, they are
:56:57. > :57:03.deemed to be sane and the law in effect allows them to kill
:57:03. > :57:06.themselves, so this is the law in effect allowing them to kill
:57:06. > :57:11.themselves. This goes to the heart of the criminal justice system. If
:57:11. > :57:16.he is allowed to die, it's people using their own opinions of him
:57:16. > :57:25.that he gets a death sentence. I think he should be kept alive but
:57:25. > :57:30.if he chooses to be kept alive, that's his choice. But he can't be
:57:30. > :57:35.allowed to do that, that's the point. Ultimately, you have to
:57:35. > :57:43.allow people to determine their own existence or lack of. Really.
:57:43. > :57:47.Seriously. Quite frankly, it's a burden also on the taxpayer.
:57:47. > :57:54.didn't allow people to determine their existence, so why should we
:57:54. > :57:58.allow him the same right? Now you are talking cruelty and no sane
:57:58. > :58:06.society would follow that kind of philosophy. We don't do things to
:58:06. > :58:09.be wicked, none of us. Our time's up, I'm afraid. This is our last
:58:09. > :58:13.Question Time until September because Parliament goes into recess
:58:13. > :58:15.for the summer. We'll be back in for the summer. We'll be back in
:58:15. > :58:20.September for the party conferences at Brighton and then in Manchester.
:58:20. > :58:24.The dates are on the screen. If you want to come to either programme to
:58:24. > :58:29.put questions to the panel, it's not too early to apply. You can
:58:30. > :58:34.apply to the website or call us. In the hope that all our many, many
:58:34. > :58:43.viewers Tweet us and text us, have a happy summer, I would like to