0:00:01 > 0:00:11Good evening. Tonight's Question Time comes from Easterhouse in
0:00:11 > 0:00:15
0:00:15 > 0:00:19And a big welcome to our audience and our panel, the Deputy First
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon. Labour's shadow Scottish
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Secretary down at Westminster, Margaret Curran. The leader of the
0:00:26 > 0:00:30Scottish Conservative Party, Ruth Davidson. The Scottish editor of
0:00:30 > 0:00:40the Daily Telegraph, Alan Cochrane. And the trade union leader, Mark
0:00:40 > 0:00:47
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Serwotka. APPLAUSE
0:00:49 > 0:00:54Right, our first question tonight from Stephen Barri. Why isn't the
0:00:54 > 0:00:59Government doing more about rising gas and electricity prices.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03Mark Serwotka. Well, that's a very good question and the fact they are
0:01:03 > 0:01:07not doing more I think tells us clearly how they are out-of-touch
0:01:07 > 0:01:11with the every day pressures that working men and women and people up
0:01:11 > 0:01:17and down the country and particularly here in Scotland are
0:01:17 > 0:01:21actually facing. And because some advisor has whispered this to David
0:01:21 > 0:01:24Cameron he appears off the hoof to announce that he wants to legislate
0:01:24 > 0:01:29that everybody has to get the lowest tariff and it is clear the
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Government are in disarray and the reality there is no good
0:01:33 > 0:01:39legislating for the lowest tariffs if the tariffs aren't low. I looked
0:01:39 > 0:01:44at the statistics here and saw that the profits made by Scottish Power
0:01:44 > 0:01:49and by British Gas are absolutely Astra nomical and when the prices
0:01:49 > 0:01:54of goes goes up, we're asked to pay more. When the wholesale price of
0:01:54 > 0:01:57gas goes down, we still pay more. This tells us the companies are
0:01:57 > 0:02:01making making billions of pounds worth of profits and they are going
0:02:01 > 0:02:05into their profits and to the shareholders and the poor consumer
0:02:05 > 0:02:09who has very little choice, who has to have gas and electricity are the
0:02:10 > 0:02:14one who is get above inflation rises. The current rises are four
0:02:14 > 0:02:18times the level of what the average pay rise is. And therefore, the
0:02:18 > 0:02:22Government, I think, need to accept that profits should not be made at
0:02:22 > 0:02:25times like this. I think there is a massive case to be made for
0:02:25 > 0:02:30nationalising the utilities and ensuring that the public owns the
0:02:30 > 0:02:34gas and electricity supply and so then we can feel the benefits
0:02:34 > 0:02:44rather than us constantly fork out while the rich get richer and we
0:02:44 > 0:02:58
0:02:58 > 0:03:00suffer more. APPLAUSE
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Ruth Davidson, perhaps you could clarify what you think the Prime
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Minister was saying on behalf of the Conservative Party and as
0:03:05 > 0:03:08indeed as Prime Minister, we will be legislating so energy companies
0:03:08 > 0:03:11have to give the lowest tariff to their customers and he repeated it
0:03:11 > 0:03:14tonight and Mark says it is hog wash. Do you think it is hog wash,
0:03:14 > 0:03:16or does he mean it? As he said again today, yes, there is going to
0:03:16 > 0:03:19be legislation brought forward in order to do what this gentleman has
0:03:19 > 0:03:22asked us to do. To make sure we get a better deal for people who are
0:03:22 > 0:03:25seeing their power and their gas go up. The Prime Minister has acted on
0:03:25 > 0:03:27this already. He held an energy summit with the big six this year.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30He introduced a situation where people had to be told of better
0:03:30 > 0:03:33tariffs if they didn't exist. Now he said that's not enough, we need
0:03:33 > 0:03:38to go further. And why do you think he he hadn't
0:03:38 > 0:03:41told his Energy Minister or anybody else, today, they were over the
0:03:41 > 0:03:44shop on it? I think what you have seen is the normal function of
0:03:44 > 0:03:47Government which is we have seen a problem, we have identified a
0:03:47 > 0:03:50problem. We are looking to legislate in order to rectify that
0:03:50 > 0:03:54problem and we will bring forward details as we go forward. We are on
0:03:54 > 0:03:58the side of hard-working householders who condition afford
0:03:58 > 0:04:00their gas and electricity bill. There will be an Energy Bill and
0:04:00 > 0:04:03the details will be explained in the House of Commons and this will
0:04:03 > 0:04:07help people who are really struggling and this is because the
0:04:07 > 0:04:11Government is on the side of people who are who are struggling with gas
0:04:11 > 0:04:15and electricity bills. Margaret Curran, it sounds good.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19It is the normal shambles. We have the West Coast Main Line and the
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Budget and now the energy shambles. I was in the House of Commons when
0:04:23 > 0:04:28the Prime Minister made his announcement of enforcing companies
0:04:28 > 0:04:31to give people the lowest tariff. The next day, within 24 hours, it
0:04:31 > 0:04:34had unravelled. His Energy Minister didn't know what he was talking
0:04:34 > 0:04:38about when he was required to go to the House of Commons today, he
0:04:38 > 0:04:42wouldn't confirm what the Prime Minister said. Today, we are
0:04:42 > 0:04:46getting an announcement after announcement. We really have to
0:04:46 > 0:04:51understand what families are going through here. We have got falling
0:04:51 > 0:04:54wages and it has become one of the biggest pressures on your household
0:04:54 > 0:04:58income. He said in the House of Commons that you had 13 years to do
0:04:58 > 0:05:03this and didn't do it under Labour and he clicks his fingers and has
0:05:03 > 0:05:07done it? Nothing has happened since his energy summit last year. What
0:05:07 > 0:05:11we announced at our conference is what you need to do, is change the
0:05:11 > 0:05:15energy market. We would want to abolish Ofgem. You need to have
0:05:15 > 0:05:18more control of the energy companies. You particularly have to
0:05:18 > 0:05:22stop the six big companies operating in the way they do. You
0:05:22 > 0:05:27need to open the books and get more transparency and Labour is sure if
0:05:27 > 0:05:30they won't bring down the prices, we will force them to bring down
0:05:30 > 0:05:34their prices when they are making excessive profits.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38Labour said they would do what this Government is going to do for every
0:05:38 > 0:05:42household for the over 75s. To say it can't be done is not true. This
0:05:42 > 0:05:45Government is going to bring forward legislation, not just for
0:05:45 > 0:05:50over 75 households, but for all households because they recognise a
0:05:50 > 0:05:55problem. The woman in the striped T-shirt.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59It is ironic to see Ruth and Margaret arguing over this.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03Successive Tory and Labour governments allowed it to get to a
0:06:03 > 0:06:06stage where people are in fuel poverty, who are choosing whether
0:06:06 > 0:06:10or not they heat their house or they have food on their table. Now,
0:06:10 > 0:06:14this is is been allowed to go for successive periods since
0:06:14 > 0:06:18privatisation with no regulation. The Labour Party had 13 years like
0:06:18 > 0:06:23you said and they did nothing during that time. It is rich now
0:06:23 > 0:06:27you have no opportunity to lead the Government that you are criticising
0:06:27 > 0:06:30the Tories who haven't gone far enough and are being reactionary,
0:06:30 > 0:06:40but both I think you have to hang your heads in shame that it has
0:06:40 > 0:06:40
0:06:41 > 0:06:45come to this position. APPLAUSE
0:06:45 > 0:06:51Alan Cochrane. I think that there is no doubt that this has shot to
0:06:51 > 0:06:55the top of the Government's list of priorities and there is a panic at
0:06:55 > 0:06:59Westminster I suspect at Number Ten. What there is also is chaos and
0:06:59 > 0:07:02disorder about how they are going to do this. It is remarkable that
0:07:02 > 0:07:07Ed Davey didn't know a single thing about this announcement by the
0:07:07 > 0:07:10Prime Minister. He said it twice. But what Cameron, I think we should
0:07:10 > 0:07:15give him credit, I know the previous speaker wouldn't give him
0:07:15 > 0:07:19credit. Give him credit. He understands the problem that only
0:07:19 > 0:07:2410% of people switch from one energy company to another to get
0:07:24 > 0:07:27lower tariffs. So he is trying to get the companies, force the
0:07:27 > 0:07:32companies, Mark is right, they have been behaving badly. There is six
0:07:32 > 0:07:38of them. They follow follow each other in sequence, putting their
0:07:38 > 0:07:40prices up. What he is trying to do is get them on the lower tariff and
0:07:40 > 0:07:44Labour's suggestion that the companies will then increase their
0:07:44 > 0:07:49tariffs, I dare them to do that. They wouldn't get away with it.
0:07:49 > 0:07:54The man in the blue shirt up there in the third row.
0:07:54 > 0:08:01It seems to me this is another example where profit is brought in
0:08:01 > 0:08:04to a deregular rated -- deregulated environment. What shocks me is when
0:08:04 > 0:08:08people are surprised when companies bringing profit will be looking to
0:08:08 > 0:08:12make money out of it and making the most money that they can.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16Do you think what the Prime Minister announced is an
0:08:16 > 0:08:21improvement on a smoke screen? is likely to have little effect in
0:08:21 > 0:08:26reality. I think it will be another fob.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29Nicola Sturgeon. The drebg answer to Stephen's --
0:08:29 > 0:08:33direct answer to Stephen's question, the Government should be doing more
0:08:33 > 0:08:39to tackle rising energy prices. This is a really serious issue for
0:08:39 > 0:08:43every 5% increase in energy prices another 46,000 people in Scotland
0:08:43 > 0:08:46are pushed into fuel poverty. In energy rich Scotland, that's a
0:08:46 > 0:08:51scandal and it is time that something was done about it.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54Frankly the way that David Cameron has behaved in the past 24 hours
0:08:54 > 0:08:58does nothing and is an appalling way to treat families and
0:08:58 > 0:09:02individuals who are struggling to pay their gas and electricity bills.
0:09:02 > 0:09:07I think people are just fed up with tough talk on this. What they want
0:09:07 > 0:09:12is some meaningful action. Why do you not think this is meaningful
0:09:12 > 0:09:16action if he does achieve it? has no idea how to achieve it. Ed
0:09:16 > 0:09:19Miliband in 2008 when he was Energy Minister said it was time to get
0:09:19 > 0:09:25tough with the energy companies. He failed to do anything about it.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Ofgem, almost a year ago, published proposals that haven't been
0:09:28 > 0:09:33implemented. The Energy Bill that David Cameron talks about today,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36was published in May it didn't contain a thing about consumer
0:09:36 > 0:09:39protection. People are sick of hearing people talk tough. It is
0:09:39 > 0:09:45time for action. That's what people want and I think David Cameron
0:09:45 > 0:09:46should just get on with it and do something that can be delivered.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50APPLAUSE That's what he is doing.
0:09:50 > 0:09:55He said something yesterday that fell apart before the words were
0:09:55 > 0:10:03out of his mouth. He says tonne, "I'm sticking to my guns, but I
0:10:03 > 0:10:07can't tell you any of the detail of how it will be done. That will have
0:10:07 > 0:10:10to wait." People can be forgiven for thinking that he is making it
0:10:10 > 0:10:13up as he goes along. It is not good enough when people are struggling
0:10:13 > 0:10:20to pay their bills. The woman in pink.
0:10:20 > 0:10:27What I think is shocking is that the London School of Economics has
0:10:27 > 0:10:33estimated that 27,000 people in this country die through excess,
0:10:33 > 0:10:39winter deaths every year. If a wee dog froze to death there would be a
0:10:40 > 0:10:45public outcry. I agree with Mark, I think that the fuel companies
0:10:45 > 0:10:50should be in public ownership. What I think is really sad, in 1982, I
0:10:50 > 0:10:54became involved in the community campaign at Easterhouse to find a
0:10:54 > 0:11:03long-term solution to dampness, fuel poverty and the associated
0:11:03 > 0:11:07health problems. And in 1992, the people in this community zem
0:11:07 > 0:11:10community demonstrated. They reduced the heating bills to �5 a
0:11:10 > 0:11:15week. How much has it changed in
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Easterhouse? The capacity of people to heat their houses. Is it getting
0:11:17 > 0:11:22worse? It is worse. It is worse.
0:11:22 > 0:11:28It is worse because now, it used to be people regarded as fuel poverty
0:11:28 > 0:11:33when they paid 10 percent of their income. Now the working poor, the
0:11:33 > 0:11:39the unemployed are having to pay 35% of their income on fuel.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42Margaret Curran, do you agree with the point? Yes, and that's
0:11:42 > 0:11:46significant work that Kathy and many people have done in housous
0:11:46 > 0:11:48and it is -- Easterhouse and it is to be respected. There is
0:11:48 > 0:11:52significant improvements in Easterhouse particularly around the
0:11:52 > 0:11:55insulation, you can reduce people's housing bills through good
0:11:55 > 0:12:00insulation and through good housing investment. Some of that has been
0:12:00 > 0:12:05done and the budget is getting cut back. Nonetheless, there is a real
0:12:05 > 0:12:08issue about energy prices and I'm not denying that and the Government
0:12:08 > 0:12:12will not come forward with anything that seems to be effective. What we
0:12:12 > 0:12:16need to do, has a tougher regulation in the energy market and
0:12:16 > 0:12:19we need to understand the pace of increased prices has been enormous
0:12:19 > 0:12:23and they have to take effective action and really make the six
0:12:23 > 0:12:29companies behave and bring wholesale prices when they go up
0:12:29 > 0:12:33and they don't pass on when they come down and they need to be made
0:12:33 > 0:12:37to do that. I will take a brief point from you.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41I want to say the problem goes beyond the prices though. You talk
0:12:41 > 0:12:46about the rate of increase of salaries compared to the increase
0:12:46 > 0:12:51of the price of fuel. I haven't seen a salary increase in over four
0:12:51 > 0:12:54years now and I work in social care. Our salaries have been frozen for
0:12:54 > 0:12:59this hole period of time and -- whole period of time and the last
0:12:59 > 0:13:03time there was any talk, there was talk of it being frozen for the
0:13:03 > 0:13:11next five years. How are we meant to compete with rising prices when
0:13:11 > 0:13:12our salaries aren't improving either?
0:13:12 > 0:13:19APPLAUSE We have got more questions to go
0:13:19 > 0:13:25through. You can join in Tonight's You can follow the Question Time
0:13:25 > 0:13:28account and our Twitter panellist is on our Twitter website.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32If you prefer to text us, push the Red Button to see what other
0:13:32 > 0:13:37texters are saying. If you want to text your comments:
0:13:37 > 0:13:40A question from Michelle. Do you believe Scotland would be
0:13:40 > 0:13:43better off as an independent nation? Would Scotland be better
0:13:44 > 0:13:47off as an independent nation? A referendum in two years time on
0:13:47 > 0:13:57this issue. There is two years to talk about it and we have ten
0:13:57 > 0:13:59
0:13:59 > 0:14:04minutes to talk about it tonight! I will be voting no in the
0:14:04 > 0:14:08referendum... APPLAUSE
0:14:08 > 0:14:11It's an historic moment. I think the partnership that we have across
0:14:11 > 0:14:15the nations of the United Kingdom works well and works effectively. I
0:14:15 > 0:14:18think it can grow and develop. We live in a changing world with
0:14:18 > 0:14:23climate change, with global economic circumstances changing,
0:14:23 > 0:14:29with terrorism. I think the time is not to build walls around us, but
0:14:29 > 0:14:34it's actually to work together, to pull together, not break apart. I
0:14:34 > 0:14:37would challenge the SNP on what vision of independence they have.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42Sometimes the core argument I think you will hear Nicola Sturgeon say
0:14:42 > 0:14:46later is that we need Scotland to be independent so that we can have
0:14:46 > 0:14:49full control of economic levers. It's a funny vision of independence
0:14:49 > 0:14:54that we are getting because exactly what will that control be? It looks
0:14:54 > 0:14:58like our interest rates, you know, that our mortgages will be set by
0:14:58 > 0:15:01the Bank of England which will be effectively a foreign power, you
0:15:01 > 0:15:07know. Even our chief economic adviser is beginning to say they
0:15:07 > 0:15:12are making this up as they go along, John Kaye and Alex Salmond used to
0:15:12 > 0:15:16quote a great deal. They are using a model, a fiscal model which is
0:15:16 > 0:15:21the core of the problems in the eurozone. Why would we want to
0:15:21 > 0:15:26borrow that now? I don't know. It doesn't stack up. It doesn't make
0:15:26 > 0:15:29seasons. Why would we make our biggest competitor? I think the
0:15:29 > 0:15:33partnership is the union works well. We can make Scotland a strong
0:15:33 > 0:15:38country. Devolution has worked. But one thing that be kill devolution
0:15:38 > 0:15:41is if we vote for independence. I want devolution to continue. It's
0:15:41 > 0:15:44even independence or it's devolution and I think that's going
0:15:44 > 0:15:49to be the best deal for Scotland. APPLAUSE
0:15:49 > 0:15:53Nicola Sturgeon? Well, yes I believe Scotland would be better
0:15:53 > 0:15:58off as an independent country. Just to balance that up, I'll be voting
0:15:58 > 0:16:03yes in the referendum. APPLAUSE
0:16:03 > 0:16:06BOOS The rest of the UK will always be strong. I'm the granddaughter of
0:16:06 > 0:16:14an Englishwoman and I don't think it does anybody any faves to sew
0:16:14 > 0:16:18the seeds of division that people like Margaret Curran create. What?!
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Three reasons. Three big reasons why we'd be better off independent.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27Firstly, it's better and makes more sense that the big decisions about
0:16:27 > 0:16:30the future of our country are taken by the people who live here. If you
0:16:30 > 0:16:33asked anybody in another country do you thinker you are better off
0:16:33 > 0:16:37independent, they would look at you as if they were daft because they
0:16:37 > 0:16:42take their independence for granted. Secondly, we'd be better off
0:16:42 > 0:16:47financially. If you look at the last independent figures that are
0:16:47 > 0:16:52available where �1.7 billion is the figure we have for being better off
0:16:52 > 0:16:56in the UK, �500 for every person in Scotland. Thirdly and lastly, I
0:16:56 > 0:17:00think it would p right for us to be able to decide for ourselves how to
0:17:00 > 0:17:06invest Scotland's resources to protect the kinds of things that
0:17:06 > 0:17:11Margaret's party now want to get rid of. Rubbish. Rubbish. Free
0:17:11 > 0:17:14education, free welfare instead of spending money on Trident weapons
0:17:14 > 0:17:18of mass destruction. That's why I think Scotland would be better off
0:17:18 > 0:17:23as a proud independent country. it wouldn't be independent. How can
0:17:23 > 0:17:26you have control of your economic levers if interest rates are set.
0:17:26 > 0:17:30We have fiscal control in order to grow our economy to make sure that
0:17:30 > 0:17:34instead of watching the Tories dismantle our welfare state, we can
0:17:34 > 0:17:42invest in the things that matter to us. That's the value of
0:17:42 > 0:17:47independence. The mab man in the checked shirt -? Let's get to the
0:17:47 > 0:17:52nub of the matter, what model of an independent Scotland is it going to
0:17:52 > 0:17:56be based on? Austerity? The Keltic Tigheer in Ireland which destroyed
0:17:56 > 0:18:01the Irish economy which the SNP not so long ago were backing. Alex
0:18:01 > 0:18:06Salmond was very much a pro-Celtic Tiger. Will it be a race to the
0:18:06 > 0:18:08bottom. Based on lowering wages? Based on slice up the Health
0:18:08 > 0:18:13Service? Based on keeping the energy companies and railway
0:18:13 > 0:18:17companies in the hands of big business? Or will it be based on a
0:18:17 > 0:18:23socialist model based on the ordinary needs of people wanting,
0:18:23 > 0:18:30based on the leaves. What is your view? Socialist model. It's got to
0:18:30 > 0:18:33be based on bringing levers of the economy up. To answer Michelle's
0:18:33 > 0:18:36question. Scotland could be an independent country but not
0:18:36 > 0:18:40necessarily better as an independent country in my view.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43There's no doubt that Scotland - there is nothing wrong with the
0:18:43 > 0:18:46idea of an independent Scotland. It could be independent, no doubt
0:18:46 > 0:18:50about that. Economically, Scotland could survive. Perhaps almost
0:18:50 > 0:18:57certainly not as well as it survived now, but I do think in
0:18:57 > 0:19:00answer to the guy in the checked shirt, that's your name now, the
0:19:00 > 0:19:06model is, keep the Queen, stay in the Commonwealth, keep the pound,
0:19:06 > 0:19:09let the City of London decide your economic policy. That is not the
0:19:09 > 0:19:15idea of independence that Nicola's activists will be demanding
0:19:15 > 0:19:22tomorrow and Saturday at the conference in Perth. The man with
0:19:22 > 0:19:25spectacles, another checked shirt? It would be to Nicola in that if
0:19:25 > 0:19:28you take other independent countries, like say Ireland and
0:19:28 > 0:19:33Iceland, Alex Salmond was saying how wonderfully they were doing
0:19:33 > 0:19:37then. If we look now, both of them have gone bust and need massive
0:19:37 > 0:19:40bail outs. If that's the future for Scotland which unfortunately I
0:19:41 > 0:19:47think it will be, that will not be a reason to vote yes in a
0:19:47 > 0:19:51referendum but sorry I can't think of any other reason why I would.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55APPLAUSE The woman in the front?
0:19:55 > 0:20:00referendum is two years away. In the peen time, Alex Salmond's got
0:20:00 > 0:20:06legal advice which has been paid for by the Scottish Government
0:20:06 > 0:20:14which is paid by me as a taxpayer. Why is he refusing to divulge what
0:20:14 > 0:20:22legal advice that is. Which legal advice - joining the Europe -
0:20:22 > 0:20:26European Union? Yes, what's he got to hide? Just for viewers outside
0:20:26 > 0:20:30Scotland, it's said that the SNP took advice on whether they would
0:20:30 > 0:20:33be automobile to join the EU. What was that advice?
0:20:33 > 0:20:37ministerial code that binds all ministers, not just in Scotland but
0:20:37 > 0:20:40across the UK and this is a point thatlen agrees with, says that
0:20:40 > 0:20:45ministers are not allowed to disclose A whether they've got
0:20:45 > 0:20:48legal advice and the content of it. If Alex Salmond was to answer that
0:20:48 > 0:20:51question, Margaret's colleagues in the Scottish Parliament would be
0:20:51 > 0:20:55making complaints about it for breaching the ministerial code.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59That's what it was about. Does anybody seriously think that oil
0:20:59 > 0:21:04rich Scotland, fishing rich Scotland, renewable energy rich
0:21:04 > 0:21:10Scotland would not be welcomeded by the European Union with open arms?
0:21:10 > 0:21:15Have you asked them? The former Director General of the
0:21:15 > 0:21:21commission... Have you asked Barroso what he thinks? Scotland
0:21:21 > 0:21:26would inherit the treaty rights and obligations. ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
0:21:26 > 0:21:29Ruth Davidson? We know the SNP haven't asked the European Union
0:21:29 > 0:21:33because we have written to the European Commission and they said
0:21:33 > 0:21:37you have never asked them in 13 years for them to tell us what it
0:21:37 > 0:21:42is. The point this lady raises is about information that you have
0:21:42 > 0:21:46sought and received, about whether Scotland would be an accession
0:21:46 > 0:21:50state - this is important for everyone - it meens we'd have to be
0:21:50 > 0:21:54part of the Schengen agreement and use the euro. We'd have border
0:21:55 > 0:22:00controls. It affects what our tax would be if we were in competition
0:22:00 > 0:22:03with people in England. The chairman offal European Commission,
0:22:03 > 0:22:05Jose Manuel Barroso, has said it's likely we'd have to be and you are
0:22:05 > 0:22:09spending thousands keeping that information from the Scottish
0:22:09 > 0:22:13people despite the fact that the independent Freedom of Information
0:22:13 > 0:22:16commissioner has said that you should divulge it. The ministerial
0:22:16 > 0:22:20code says that you shouldn't divulge information that's given by
0:22:20 > 0:22:23legal representatives unless there is an exceptional case. Now, the
0:22:23 > 0:22:26Freedom of Information commissioner, I'm telling you that it's in
0:22:26 > 0:22:30Scotland's national interests for you to tell people is an
0:22:30 > 0:22:36exceptional case and the reason you ought to tell people is because you
0:22:36 > 0:22:42don't want the answer to come out. -- the reason you don't want to
0:22:42 > 0:22:45tell people is you don't want the answer to come out. Can you answer
0:22:45 > 0:22:49the question, do you think Scotland would be better off? We have the
0:22:49 > 0:22:56safety and security of being part of a G7 nation, of being part of
0:22:56 > 0:22:59NATO, the best military alliance in the world. We also have autonomy in
0:22:59 > 0:23:02decision-making on education, health and justice. For those
0:23:02 > 0:23:05reasons, I think we in Scotland have the best of both worlds. I
0:23:05 > 0:23:10think if we look at some of the figures that Nicola's been banding
0:23:10 > 0:23:16around in the last few days, she's been talking up a lot about
0:23:16 > 0:23:24Scotland contributing 9.6% in taxes but receiving 9.3% in spending and
0:23:24 > 0:23:31suggesting that creates a 2.7% overfill. It doesn't. 9.6% in taxes
0:23:31 > 0:23:35is 53.1 billion, 9.3% in spending is 63.8 billion. Scotland's less in
0:23:35 > 0:23:40debt than the rest of the UK. Scotland receives �10 billion a
0:23:40 > 0:23:44year more than it's contributing. Not many people in Scotland can
0:23:44 > 0:23:50trust Ruth Davidson's figures. A couple of weeks ago, she said only
0:23:50 > 0:23:5510% in Scotland contributed anything. Even Mitt Romney only
0:23:55 > 0:23:59managed to write off... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
0:23:59 > 0:24:05You spent time trying to knock the figure down...
0:24:05 > 0:24:09Can I plead with you, panellists, please. Please, please, don't have
0:24:09 > 0:24:19arguments that are arcane to most of the United Kingdom, they will be
0:24:19 > 0:24:19
0:24:19 > 0:24:23understood in Glasgow. Try and stick... As someone who failed O-
0:24:23 > 0:24:27level maths, I don't understand the figures but I'm an emotional Brit
0:24:27 > 0:24:30and the emotion in this argument is going to be as important as any of
0:24:30 > 0:24:35the figures these two are throwing at each other. I've got four kids.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39Two live in England, two live in Scotland. I do not want them to be
0:24:39 > 0:24:44foreigners to each other. Now, no matter what Nicola...
0:24:44 > 0:24:50APPLAUSE No matter what Nicola says, that
0:24:50 > 0:24:54will be the outcome of an independence. Mark? Skew I'm Welsh,
0:24:54 > 0:24:58I live in London and my father was a Polish immigrant, so in that
0:24:58 > 0:25:01sense I'm looking in and I start from taking the view this is a
0:25:01 > 0:25:05matter for the Scottish people, it's a good thing that there's a
0:25:05 > 0:25:11referendum. It's ground-breaking and we should applaud the fact that
0:25:11 > 0:25:1516-year-olds will get a vote and I hope the rest of the UK do it. In
0:25:15 > 0:25:20that sense, I ask myself this question - my union has 30,000
0:25:20 > 0:25:24members in Scotland. Wa we are dog is, we are having a debate, a
0:25:24 > 0:25:27really thorough debate about what we think the effects will be on
0:25:27 > 0:25:34jobs, the economy, the type of society the people live in, and we
0:25:34 > 0:25:38will come to a considered view. Now, my opinion is that it's two years
0:25:38 > 0:25:42to referendum. What this debate deserves is something much, much
0:25:42 > 0:25:46more fundamental than just is it the Union Jack or the Scottish flag,
0:25:46 > 0:25:51are we foreigners or not, it's about this question - whether you
0:25:51 > 0:25:55are independent or in the UK, if you have a party in power that
0:25:55 > 0:25:59supports privatisation, is neoliberal, who is in Hock to the
0:25:59 > 0:26:03bankers, rather than caring about the people, then frankly, both
0:26:03 > 0:26:09options are dreadful. APPLAUSE If this debate was about
0:26:09 > 0:26:12an equal society, a redistribution of wealth, nationalising our
0:26:12 > 0:26:17resources, keeping free prescriptions and no tuition fees,
0:26:17 > 0:26:25those are the issues that working people must demand are on the
0:26:25 > 0:26:30agenda. In that sense, I just want to say this - I think it's shameful
0:26:30 > 0:26:34that Labour have abandoned politics and told people that the question
0:26:34 > 0:26:37of the union transcends everything else. When Alistair Darling does
0:26:37 > 0:26:41that on national TV, if you take him at his word, he's actually
0:26:41 > 0:26:48saying, better to be in the union run by the most right-wing
0:26:48 > 0:26:53Government this country's had for decades and suffer. Margaret
0:26:53 > 0:26:59Curran? Do you want to answer that? Mark's wrong, that's not what
0:26:59 > 0:27:02Alistair Darling is saying at all. Believe me, you won't get a more
0:27:03 > 0:27:07fervent dedicated campaigner than the thoir Government. I feel very
0:27:07 > 0:27:11strongly and passionately about that, but I won't buy an argument
0:27:11 > 0:27:16that says somehow the best way to get out of the Tories is somehow to
0:27:16 > 0:27:21pull out of Britain because that's not the answer. This is a lifetime
0:27:21 > 0:27:26decision and we might well live to regret it. Nicola Sturgeon agreed
0:27:26 > 0:27:31with Mark Serwotka, "Hear, hear" she said when nationalising
0:27:31 > 0:27:35resources. Everything's free for Scotland. This SNP hypocrisy has to
0:27:35 > 0:27:38come to an end. They are hiding behind the political choices they
0:27:38 > 0:27:42are making, there are very serious consequences about what they are
0:27:42 > 0:27:48saying to Scotland and doing to Scotland at the moment. There is a
0:27:49 > 0:27:53fantastic college around the corner, there's a waiting list for that,
0:27:53 > 0:27:5910,000 kids. Huge unemployment, higher in Scotland than the rest of
0:27:59 > 0:28:03the UK. So let's not let the SNP fool you. Leave aside what they are
0:28:03 > 0:28:07doing in office. On the principle of independence. There is no
0:28:07 > 0:28:12guarantee that the SNP would remain in Government. The way you talk,
0:28:12 > 0:28:16you were suggesting you would give up on Labour overtaking in power in
0:28:16 > 0:28:19an independent Scotland. Well then, let's leave the SNP's policies as
0:28:19 > 0:28:25they are at the moment. We are talking about independence and
0:28:25 > 0:28:27there'll be another election after that. It's about their vision of
0:28:27 > 0:28:31independence and they're conning people. You have made the point.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34The woman in yellow? For those on the panel who don't support full
0:28:34 > 0:28:39independence, would you keep the devolution system as it is now or
0:28:39 > 0:28:44would you support devo max? What is your view about that? I would
0:28:44 > 0:28:49support devo max. Increase in powers. Alan, would you support
0:28:49 > 0:28:55that? No, Dee vo minus would be my option.
0:28:55 > 0:28:59I think that we have a Parliament with a huge panoply of powers and
0:28:59 > 0:29:03an incredible array of powers. Some work, a lot of them don't. We are
0:29:03 > 0:29:08about to get another load of pow, through the Scotland Act passed
0:29:08 > 0:29:12this year coming into force in 2015 or 2016. The idea that we need to
0:29:12 > 0:29:17add to those before we've even worked out how the next lot are
0:29:17 > 0:29:22going to work is nuts. Let's have a serious, considered debate about
0:29:22 > 0:29:26what we need to do, but for goodness' sake, let's not dash into
0:29:26 > 0:29:31handing over a load of powers now. The woman at the back on the left?
0:29:31 > 0:29:36If Scotland became independent, would there not be a better chance
0:29:36 > 0:29:41Ngog on a nation on our own than what we have been putting up with
0:29:41 > 0:29:43for the last 1900 centuries. Who is against it? We have had two or
0:29:43 > 0:29:49three speakers for independence. Who is against the idea of
0:29:49 > 0:29:52independence? You, Sir, with the spectacles on Who will pay off
0:29:52 > 0:29:56Scotland's part of the national debt? Where would you get the money
0:29:56 > 0:30:01from? You would have to add taxes. It's a figment of people's
0:30:01 > 0:30:07imagination that independence is great. Oil is reputed to have run
0:30:07 > 0:30:12out by about 2020, where are you going to get the money from? If you
0:30:12 > 0:30:22are willing to pay �7.45 I think it is, the same as Norway, to buy a
0:30:22 > 0:30:23
0:30:23 > 0:30:27pint of beer, then vote for And the man up there in the right
0:30:27 > 0:30:31in the second row, you sir. I would like to ask Nicola Sturgeon
0:30:31 > 0:30:35why the SNP have taken 70 years to tell us how they are going to make
0:30:35 > 0:30:38independence work. They still haven't told us actually, but I
0:30:39 > 0:30:41would like to ask the unionist contingent, have they considered
0:30:41 > 0:30:49when independence comes, they are going to have a plan too and what
0:30:50 > 0:30:53are those plans? Can I pile in? As I am not in the unionist contingent.
0:30:53 > 0:30:57I think that what the questions have brought out and what you have
0:30:57 > 0:31:01got to demand of these politicians here in Scotland is that the debate
0:31:01 > 0:31:05becomes about what type of Scotland will it be? Will it be a strong
0:31:05 > 0:31:10welfare State? Will it be more equality? Will it be one that
0:31:10 > 0:31:14challenges the markets and not let markets dictate everything to us?
0:31:14 > 0:31:18If I lived in Scotland and that debate showed me that independence
0:31:19 > 0:31:22with a Government that was actually about equality and fairness, I
0:31:22 > 0:31:25would vote for it. I don't understand your point. You are
0:31:25 > 0:31:30saying a country can become independent only if it goes on
0:31:30 > 0:31:36getting the kind of Government that you want. It It doesn't sound
0:31:36 > 0:31:40democratic. It sounds very undemocratic? What I am saying
0:31:40 > 0:31:44David, if I lived in Scotland, I would demand this debate became
0:31:44 > 0:31:49about the issues that matter to people and the problem is with
0:31:49 > 0:31:53Labour, I can't think of a worse time historically for the Scottish
0:31:53 > 0:31:57Labour Party to march right wards, talk about giving up universal
0:31:57 > 0:32:03benefits, talk about cuts when you should be speaking for hundreds of
0:32:03 > 0:32:13thousands of people... We are. We are. No, we are. That's what we are
0:32:13 > 0:32:14
0:32:14 > 0:32:17doing. I mean... Mark said the same about
0:32:17 > 0:32:21Tony Blair's Government. There is no more important argument
0:32:21 > 0:32:26than who we are. That's the decision we are going to make, who
0:32:26 > 0:32:30we are, are we Brits, are we Scots and Brits? It is who we are. There
0:32:30 > 0:32:36is no more important important argument than that.
0:32:36 > 0:32:40What type of society? It is who we are? You are only getting half the
0:32:40 > 0:32:45story from your London house. All you hear about is free
0:32:45 > 0:32:50prescriptions in Scotland, you don't hear about the 2,500 fewer
0:32:50 > 0:32:56nurse and midwives, you don't hear about the fact that people on
0:32:56 > 0:33:01�150,000 are getting free drugs. This is the way the Government is
0:33:01 > 0:33:06run in Scotland. Are you saying that that ins... I don't think
0:33:06 > 0:33:13Nicola likes to take responsibility. When you keep going on about what
0:33:13 > 0:33:19is going on now? What I am saying look at the areas where we can have
0:33:19 > 0:33:22a debate. There is a debate that isn't to do with the constitution.
0:33:22 > 0:33:26Yes, it is important. Yes, it is a fight that's going to go on for two
0:33:26 > 0:33:29years. No, I don't take votes for granted in Scotland and I will go
0:33:29 > 0:33:31door to door to promote the United Kingdom. There are other things
0:33:31 > 0:33:34that people care about and things like the Health Service are
0:33:34 > 0:33:38important now David and they are things we have to discuss now and
0:33:38 > 0:33:41make choices. We are talking about the referendum
0:33:41 > 0:33:45and whether Scotland would be better off. We have two years to
0:33:45 > 0:33:49debate this and tonight we will move on to another question! We
0:33:49 > 0:33:53have one from Joanna Tracey. Joanna Tracey. The UK Drug Policy
0:33:53 > 0:33:59Commission wants to relax penalties for drug possession. How would this
0:33:59 > 0:34:04affect society and drug use? This was the proposal this week for
0:34:04 > 0:34:07relaxing penalties for easing up on the use of the law against the use
0:34:07 > 0:34:12of drugs. How would it effect society and drug use? Nicola
0:34:12 > 0:34:15Sturgeon are you in favour of what was announced by the Drug Policy
0:34:15 > 0:34:20Commission? I am not in favour of relaxing penalties. I am in favour
0:34:20 > 0:34:26in doing everything we can through education, through treatment, to
0:34:26 > 0:34:31tackle drug use and get fewer people using drugs and those who
0:34:31 > 0:34:35are, make sure they get treatment they need. Drug misuse is a problem
0:34:35 > 0:34:38in Scotland as it is in every part of the UK. We do see drug use
0:34:39 > 0:34:43figures amongst the general adult population coming down amongst
0:34:43 > 0:34:46young people, it is at record low levels in Scotland. We see waiting
0:34:46 > 0:34:51times for access to treatment shorter than they have been before
0:34:51 > 0:34:54so we are making progress and what we need to do is continue with
0:34:54 > 0:34:57those efforts rather than relax the law. That's my view and what I
0:34:57 > 0:35:00think this Government and other governments in the UK should
0:35:00 > 0:35:06continue to do. The UK Drug Policy Commission which
0:35:06 > 0:35:11is a charity, a Government organisation, says that just say no
0:35:11 > 0:35:19campaigns had little or no impact. Longer jail terms on suppliers have
0:35:19 > 0:35:25no impact. Current prohibition is simplistic and all the rest of it?
0:35:25 > 0:35:30I don't agree that saying you don't think the law should be relaxed
0:35:30 > 0:35:33equates to advocating a just say no policy. I am not advocating that. I
0:35:33 > 0:35:38think we should do as much as we can to educate young people about
0:35:38 > 0:35:41the zaingers of drugs -- dangers of drugs when people develop drug
0:35:41 > 0:35:45problems we have a responsibility to make sure they get the treatment
0:35:45 > 0:35:48and rehabilitation they need. These are the things we need to focus on.
0:35:48 > 0:35:53We are focusing on them in Scotland. There is more work still to do. It
0:35:53 > 0:35:57is an area where we have had a fair degree of political consensus in
0:35:57 > 0:36:00Scotland and I hope that can continue because it is too an
0:36:00 > 0:36:05important issue to divide along party lines.
0:36:05 > 0:36:12Do you agree the current position of prohibition of drugs is
0:36:12 > 0:36:16simplistic, Alan Cochrane? probably is simplistic and I agree
0:36:16 > 0:36:22with everything that that Nicola Sturgeon said and I would keep the
0:36:22 > 0:36:28criminal sanctions in place. Especially in terms of alongside
0:36:28 > 0:36:32the criminal sanctionsI would do and this is where Nicola is right,
0:36:32 > 0:36:38there has got to be a different approach than dumping people on to
0:36:38 > 0:36:41methadone. We have got to get more rehabilitation and treatment.
0:36:41 > 0:36:46APPLAUSE The woman in black. Yes. Should
0:36:46 > 0:36:50Scotland or the UK not consider the system that they use in Holland
0:36:50 > 0:36:56which is they set-up clinics and encourage drug addicts to go there
0:36:56 > 0:37:00and they are given heroine three times a day by a nurse and it is
0:37:00 > 0:37:03prescribed and it removes the criminality element of it? Keep
0:37:03 > 0:37:08that point for the moment. The person there.
0:37:08 > 0:37:18I have got real issues with what you are saying, Alan. You would
0:37:18 > 0:37:26keep the criminalisation of drugs. Who does it help to does a heroine
0:37:26 > 0:37:30addict into prison? That person is taking part in criminal activity to
0:37:30 > 0:37:37fund their heroine habit, they may have a family. Who does it help to
0:37:37 > 0:37:41put them into prison? Why don't we have a better system for helping
0:37:41 > 0:37:45cure their addiction? Russell Bran was in the houses of Parliament
0:37:45 > 0:37:49ages ago talking about a system of healthcare that helped him with his
0:37:50 > 0:37:55addiction. Why aren't we moving towards his care rather than
0:37:55 > 0:37:58criminalisation? Ruth Davidson. First of all, I have
0:37:58 > 0:38:02to say I think that particularly when it comes to dealers rather
0:38:02 > 0:38:04than individual users there is a need for them to be removed from
0:38:05 > 0:38:09the communities they blight in Scotland and the criminal sanctions
0:38:09 > 0:38:14is the only way you can put people this prison to take them out of
0:38:14 > 0:38:17those communities. I agree with Nicola and a lot of work was done
0:38:17 > 0:38:23to bring forward a new national drugs policy for Scotland which the
0:38:23 > 0:38:25SNP managed to implement and it centred very much on abstinence and
0:38:25 > 0:38:28rehabilitation and it is about helping people who have identified
0:38:28 > 0:38:32themselves as wanting to make those improvements in their life, trying
0:38:32 > 0:38:35to find a way forward. Now, I am not saying that's working perfectly
0:38:35 > 0:38:38on the grown, but I have to give credit where credit is due and
0:38:38 > 0:38:42there has been a real will by the Scottish Government to make this
0:38:42 > 0:38:46happen. We have supported them in the past and I hope Nicola Sturgeon
0:38:46 > 0:38:50would acknowledge that. Do you want to see an end to the
0:38:50 > 0:38:55war on cannabis as the Drug Policy Commission said? You are talking
0:38:55 > 0:38:58about harder drugs, aren't you? am. Particularly in my area of
0:38:58 > 0:39:02Glasgow that I represent, the harder drugs are the real real
0:39:02 > 0:39:06problem drugs for us Arparticularly when we are talking about areas of
0:39:06 > 0:39:11methadone and heroine. My issue is the number of people people in
0:39:11 > 0:39:17Scotland who have been on methadone for decades and have never been put
0:39:17 > 0:39:24on a reducing dose. Mental health adone is about weaning people off
0:39:24 > 0:39:27the drug. For people to go back to have lives that aren't aotic that's
0:39:27 > 0:39:32what -- chaotic, that's what we have to do and that the services
0:39:32 > 0:39:35are there to support these people. The man in green.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38You should get young people involved in health related
0:39:38 > 0:39:41activities and I don't see how you can achieve this when you have
0:39:41 > 0:39:51young people my age that want to use a football park and are having
0:39:51 > 0:39:53
0:39:53 > 0:39:55to pay prices at �33 an hour for a game of football.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58APPLAUSE You have to pay �33 an hour here in
0:39:58 > 0:40:03Easterhouse? Yes. To play football? Yes, for an hour
0:40:03 > 0:40:07in the park. Margaret Curran is my That's one of the points that we
0:40:07 > 0:40:11have been making about, we like to think we have got everything
0:40:11 > 0:40:19perfect in Scotland, but if you freeze the council tax, there is a
0:40:19 > 0:40:25cost for those facilities, you can't provide those facilities.
0:40:25 > 0:40:30It is a harsh reality of life. If you life in a world of finite
0:40:30 > 0:40:34resources, it is about what you penalise. The principle of the
0:40:35 > 0:40:39point that you are making is right. You need to have wider facilities
0:40:39 > 0:40:43for young people. In this part of the world, of course, the community
0:40:43 > 0:40:49is so strong and we see it significantly. Can I pick up the
0:40:49 > 0:40:55point about cannabis? Ruth is about the serious drug use. We see people
0:40:55 > 0:40:58making so much money out of the poverty of other people and the
0:40:58 > 0:41:02health, and the exploitation of other people, it is unacceptable
0:41:02 > 0:41:08and there has been a lot of action about trying to make sure that we
0:41:08 > 0:41:11deal with people who are illegally dealing drugs and who make enormous
0:41:11 > 0:41:15resources out of it. When I looked at that report and we have had a
0:41:15 > 0:41:18debate about cannabis for some some years in Scotland and I remember
0:41:18 > 0:41:22this argument coming forward in the Scottish Parliament where they were
0:41:22 > 0:41:26saying we should soften the sanction ins cannabis and we
0:41:26 > 0:41:31shouldn't be so hard because of the pattern around cannabis is
0:41:32 > 0:41:35different to the pattern of use around heroine. We discovered that
0:41:35 > 0:41:39cannabis used changed and it became a serious drug and now we know
0:41:39 > 0:41:43there is a link between serious cannabis use and for example, very
0:41:43 > 0:41:47significant mental health problems. We have to be careful that we don't
0:41:47 > 0:41:50just say that you can wipe away problems - indeed, with alcohol as
0:41:50 > 0:41:55well. You want to come back.
0:41:55 > 0:42:01You are saying it is a hard fact of life that we should pay �33... You
0:42:01 > 0:42:11see if that park is lying empty and people are going down to use it
0:42:11 > 0:42:14then why are we not allowed access to it if no one is using that park?
0:42:14 > 0:42:18APPLAUSE Yes. I just want to say that just
0:42:18 > 0:42:22to show the other side. It seems to be hug the drug users ethos in here
0:42:22 > 0:42:28just now. We have got people up there saying about the clinics
0:42:28 > 0:42:33where you go and get get your methadone. Can anyone pop up? If
0:42:33 > 0:42:39you have not used methadone before, could I go and say maybe I want
0:42:39 > 0:42:42some? Who is going to pay for this? It might help in terms of Hel care
0:42:42 > 0:42:47costs, -- healthcare costs, if you start pushing out it is OK, surely
0:42:47 > 0:42:50you will promote more use of these drugs. In answer to the guy about
0:42:50 > 0:42:53the football pitch, it is surprising there is not pieces of
0:42:53 > 0:43:00land to play on and maybe it is the type of people that frequent these
0:43:00 > 0:43:03areas that make them less desirable. OK. The woman in the second row
0:43:03 > 0:43:09from the back. I worked in addiction for seven
0:43:09 > 0:43:14years and the problem is that methadone is readily given out and
0:43:14 > 0:43:19the whole programme was about, they would be put on to a methadone
0:43:19 > 0:43:23programme and tested week in and week out to make sure they weren't
0:43:23 > 0:43:26using illicit drugs. Because of the drugs in the social services, these
0:43:26 > 0:43:31tests don't go as well as they should do and it is a case, it is
0:43:31 > 0:43:41like a cattle market where they come in and go out. They give a
0:43:41 > 0:43:45dirty urine, it is OK, we will put your Met drone up. -- Met methadone
0:43:45 > 0:43:49up. They are not addregs the problem -- addregs the problem of
0:43:49 > 0:43:54what the addiction is. Mark Serwotka? This was a serious
0:43:54 > 0:43:58report and what it raised were questions we have to really soul
0:43:58 > 0:44:03search over. It was making the point about alcohol deaths. Smoking
0:44:03 > 0:44:06related deaths, about the focus on drugs which can mean people being
0:44:06 > 0:44:10criminalised for personal possession of small amounts. I
0:44:10 > 0:44:15think these are questions for people people to raise, not because
0:44:15 > 0:44:21they are soft on drugs, but we have to ask ourselves how much resources
0:44:21 > 0:44:23are being used? What are the effect on people. Drugs blight or
0:44:23 > 0:44:30communities. Dealers should be criminalised and taken off our
0:44:30 > 0:44:36streets, but if if somebody is caught with a tiny amount of
0:44:36 > 0:44:41cannabis for personal use, should they be criminalised? That's a
0:44:41 > 0:44:45debate we have to have. The report, to say all all drugs are the same,
0:44:45 > 0:44:50when they are not, they have the same effect and we have got to be
0:44:50 > 0:44:55tough on it. You end up losing the war on drugs. Scotland it more more
0:44:55 > 0:44:59drug deaths than any other part of the UK. We have got to target what
0:44:59 > 0:45:02we do. We have got to understand the victims who live in the
0:45:02 > 0:45:06communities who are blighted by crime as addicts seek to feed their
0:45:06 > 0:45:11habit, but we have got to say the dealers must be dealt with, but if
0:45:11 > 0:45:14someone is addicted and in despair, putting them in jail for having
0:45:14 > 0:45:17personal possession is not differentiating and we clearly
0:45:17 > 0:45:27should differentiate and try and get to the heart of the problem and
0:45:27 > 0:45:30
0:45:30 > 0:45:34Mark is right and so is Joanna, but the problem is, they go to jail and
0:45:34 > 0:45:37get more drugs. That's the problem as much as anything else, there's
0:45:37 > 0:45:41more drugs in jail than there is anywhere else. The woman in the
0:45:41 > 0:45:44back row? I also work in social care and most of the young people I
0:45:44 > 0:45:47work with use cannabis to self- medicate because they have been so
0:45:47 > 0:45:52damaged, not only by their experiences, but unfortunately by
0:45:52 > 0:45:57the care system itself which is in crisis. So I don't think we need a
0:45:57 > 0:46:04war Onchans by, I think we need a war on cuts in social care.
0:46:04 > 0:46:07APPLAUSE It leaves these young children
0:46:07 > 0:46:14feeling like they have no other choice.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18The man in the checked shirt on the left. So many checked shirts here.
0:46:18 > 0:46:28You criminalise cannabis, but there are so many people I know already
0:46:28 > 0:46:29
0:46:29 > 0:46:37use it and criminalising it doesn't make it work. It shows an increase
0:46:37 > 0:46:42in mental illness. Most of my friends use it. That's not how it
0:46:42 > 0:46:45is in my experience. So you would ease up Onchans by? Yes, because we
0:46:45 > 0:46:52have bigger problems with harder drugs. I'm not a cannabis user but
0:46:52 > 0:46:57I have got a lot of friends do use it recreationally. You in the front
0:46:57 > 0:47:03row? Why are you laughing?! Question is, can you really trust
0:47:03 > 0:47:09the Government with a drugs policy when they file their independent
0:47:09 > 0:47:12advisers who have an opinion they don't agree with -- fire their
0:47:12 > 0:47:16independent advisers. We have to ask why people continue to use
0:47:16 > 0:47:19drugs and want to have them. Part of that is because of the economic
0:47:19 > 0:47:22tragedy we have had for so long in Scotland. We need a Government now
0:47:23 > 0:47:26that is going to create wealth instead of debt, teaching people
0:47:26 > 0:47:31about a Financial Future that will inspire them to do more and then
0:47:31 > 0:47:37you actually give them a dream and a hope that can take them away from
0:47:37 > 0:47:40drugs. That is why decades of socialism has been destroyed in
0:47:40 > 0:47:45Scotland. We need a Government that will help people to take charge of
0:47:45 > 0:47:52their lives and make businesses work, create real employment that
0:47:52 > 0:47:58is sustainable and it will bring Scotland up to be a tiger economy.
0:47:58 > 0:48:03The man in the second row from the back, there? You, Sir? Is it not
0:48:03 > 0:48:07the case if you did legalise drugs, it would be easier for the
0:48:07 > 0:48:12Government to control it, for people to come to the clins, they
0:48:12 > 0:48:15would set up, it would avoid the funding it does to crime, you could
0:48:15 > 0:48:20maybe reduce prostitution because I imagine most of them are drug users,
0:48:20 > 0:48:27so you could take that away, and the crime element. Surely that's
0:48:27 > 0:48:32worth looking at. People are always going to take drugs, let's be real.
0:48:32 > 0:48:35Time for one more question and then it's a thing that raised eyebrows
0:48:35 > 0:48:40throughout the UK when it was announced because it was a
0:48:40 > 0:48:45contentious point in this proposal for the referendum on independence.
0:48:45 > 0:48:50Neil McUntire, please? Considering 16 and 17-year-olds are not
0:48:50 > 0:48:54responsible enough to buy fireworks, why are we letting them have a vote
0:48:54 > 0:49:01on independence? APPLAUSE
0:49:01 > 0:49:04Is that so, that 16 and 17-year- olds can't buy fireworks? Yes, it's
0:49:05 > 0:49:0818. Ruth Davidson? I don't believe that 16 and 17-year-olds should
0:49:08 > 0:49:11have the vote at the upcoming referendum. The Scottish
0:49:11 > 0:49:15Conservative Party already voting against it if Nicola brings it to
0:49:15 > 0:49:20the Scottish Parliament. Why was it agreed by David Cameron? I think he
0:49:20 > 0:49:24didn't want to set a new precedent by see saying that it could not
0:49:24 > 0:49:27happen because what is the agreed precedent is that the legislature
0:49:27 > 0:49:31that's setting a referendum is in control of the franchise. It's up
0:49:31 > 0:49:36to Nicola and the SNP who've promised every 16 and 17-year-old
0:49:36 > 0:49:40the vote to make that happen if she can. I was in a meeting with Alex
0:49:41 > 0:49:44Salmond much earlier this year where he had special advisers and
0:49:44 > 0:49:48civil servants saying how difficult that was going to be for many
0:49:48 > 0:49:52people, so there may be thousands of 16 and 17-year-olds who've been
0:49:52 > 0:49:55promised a vote and won't get it. I don't believe that is the right age
0:49:55 > 0:49:59of consent. I believe the Electoral Commission's looked at this. They
0:49:59 > 0:50:02looked at it in 2004, they thought the franchise was about right at 18.
0:50:02 > 0:50:06The only major countries in the world that vote at 16 are Iran and
0:50:07 > 0:50:09Brazil. For me, the franchise and the mandate that the SNP have for
0:50:09 > 0:50:12this referendum is the mandate they won from the Scottish Parliamentry
0:50:12 > 0:50:18elections, the people that vote in the referendum should be the people
0:50:18 > 0:50:22that voted in the Scottish Parliamentry election. Do you agree
0:50:22 > 0:50:26with that? I would like to know what the SNP have in particular to
0:50:26 > 0:50:34offer to 16 and 17-year-olds and why they choose after the general
0:50:34 > 0:50:39election to change it down. What is it 16 and 17-year-olds are going to
0:50:39 > 0:50:43get. What are they going to get from you or what what are you going
0:50:43 > 0:50:47to give to them? What will make a difference? I take a really simple
0:50:47 > 0:50:51view of this and it's not a view based on party advantage. We have
0:50:51 > 0:50:55seen polls recently. I don't agree with them, but we have seen polls
0:50:55 > 0:50:59saying 16 and 17-year-olds wouldn't vote for independence and you see
0:50:59 > 0:51:03polls saying the opposite. I would allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote
0:51:03 > 0:51:07not just in the referendum but in every election. Why, because if you
0:51:07 > 0:51:13are able to get married, if you can have children, if you can register
0:51:13 > 0:51:16to join the Army, then why on earth shouldn't you get a say over who
0:51:16 > 0:51:19governs your country and why shouldn't you get a say over
0:51:19 > 0:51:24whether your country would be independent or not. You have to get
0:51:24 > 0:51:31your parents' permission to get married. Not in Scotland. Not in
0:51:31 > 0:51:34Scotland. What about alcohol and buying it at the age of 21. If you
0:51:34 > 0:51:39are not old enough to buy alcohol at 20, why are you old enough to
0:51:39 > 0:51:44vote and get married? There's good reasons why you don't allow people
0:51:44 > 0:51:49to buy and drink alcohol at 16 because their bodies are not yet...
0:51:49 > 0:51:54You wanted to raise it to 21? was a good argument. If you look at
0:51:54 > 0:52:02some of the communes I represent, alcohol and the antisocial
0:52:02 > 0:52:09behaviour caused by alcohol was causing misery. Margaret Curran?
0:52:09 > 0:52:13I could break this discussion up, slightly, I must say that, there
0:52:13 > 0:52:16are many representations about this throughout Scotland and throughout
0:52:16 > 0:52:19my constituency and I've been very impressed at the arguments put
0:52:19 > 0:52:22forward by that particular group of young people and I've now come to
0:52:22 > 0:52:25the view, I think 16 and 17-year- olds should vote. If you can join
0:52:25 > 0:52:31the Army and represent your country there, then I think it's reasonable
0:52:31 > 0:52:35for you to get some say in your country's future. I do agree with
0:52:35 > 0:52:39that. On the referendum? Or in Parliamentary elections? Two big
0:52:39 > 0:52:42questions, it's nonsense I think to say to young people in Scotland
0:52:42 > 0:52:46that somehow you can vote in the referendum but not in the European
0:52:47 > 0:52:55elections or the general elections, so it should be consistent. What
0:52:55 > 0:53:01Nicola has to come the terms with, the SNP have been proposing this
0:53:01 > 0:53:04for four or five years, I hope we are not going to get to a situation
0:53:04 > 0:53:07in the referendum where some 16 and 17-year-olds will vote and some
0:53:07 > 0:53:11won't because that would be absurd. Get your act together and make sure
0:53:11 > 0:53:16it's fair and consistent. The man with the tie, yes? Could the
0:53:16 > 0:53:19inclusion of 16 and 17-year-olds within the franchise for this
0:53:19 > 0:53:29referendum lead to the politicalisation of Scottish
0:53:29 > 0:53:30
0:53:30 > 0:53:34classrooms? Alan Cochrane? I don't think there's anything wrong with
0:53:34 > 0:53:39kids in the classroom discussing politics. There's not enough
0:53:39 > 0:53:43discussion of politics in our schools. There's far too many kids
0:53:43 > 0:53:46don't understand and are not taught enough about the party's political
0:53:46 > 0:53:56system. There are far too many kids in Scotland think Holyrood's the
0:53:56 > 0:53:59
0:53:59 > 0:54:02only Parliament we've got, for goodness sake. (Inaudible)
0:54:02 > 0:54:06Let's examine this logically. You can get married, join the Army, you
0:54:06 > 0:54:11can have sex, but critically, you can pay tax. Now, I remember the
0:54:11 > 0:54:16old slogan about taxation and representation and it seems to me
0:54:16 > 0:54:20that if people can pay tax and do all those things, it's ludicrous to
0:54:20 > 0:54:30say you cannot have any say in electing your representatives or in
0:54:30 > 0:54:34the future of your country. You can pay tax at 14 or 12? You are not
0:54:34 > 0:54:39going to. Of course you can, film stars, act tors. You said let's
0:54:39 > 0:54:42look at it as a matter of principle. There are a lot of 16-year-olds
0:54:42 > 0:54:47who're apprentices who pay tax, a lot of 16-year-olds who're
0:54:47 > 0:54:53participating and paying their way, and to say to them that you can
0:54:53 > 0:54:55have no say in your society, frankly I think that's not only
0:54:55 > 0:54:59patronising but completely unfair. What I would say to people watching
0:54:59 > 0:55:02this programme outside of Scotland is, the one thing we should say is
0:55:02 > 0:55:06Scotland is leading the way on this question and we should have votes
0:55:06 > 0:55:10for 16-year-olds throughout the whole of the UK in elections and in
0:55:10 > 0:55:16referendums and I tell you what, if young people had a vote, maybe we
0:55:16 > 0:55:19wouldn't have the Tories giving us record youth unemployment, slashing
0:55:19 > 0:55:24public spending and treating young people in the most appalling way.
0:55:24 > 0:55:31If they had a vote, maybe you would treat them with a bit more respect.
0:55:31 > 0:55:36The man on the left? The woman on the left? We've had a few people
0:55:36 > 0:55:39mention devo max and talking about the parameters of the referendum, I
0:55:39 > 0:55:42do believe 16 and 17-year-olds should be allowed to vote as well,
0:55:42 > 0:55:47but I also believe the referendum should appropriately reflect the
0:55:47 > 0:55:49consultation that's going on. I've taken part in a number of
0:55:49 > 0:55:52consultations on what should be involved in the referendum and
0:55:52 > 0:55:56what's strongly coming through is that people would like to see a
0:55:56 > 0:55:59third question on the ballot for Dee mow max and I think that
0:55:59 > 0:56:04power's been taken away from us by Alex Salmond and David Cameron.
0:56:04 > 0:56:07The woman there in yellow? I work with 16 and 17-year-olds and I want
0:56:07 > 0:56:15to make the point that I think a lot of them are far more mature and
0:56:15 > 0:56:19far more responsible than a lot of the adults that I know. A lot of 16
0:56:19 > 0:56:24and 17-year-olds applauding. I don't know, perhaps they are all
0:56:24 > 0:56:2718! The man in the white shirt? Three of your panellists have
0:56:27 > 0:56:31mentioned the fact that you can register for the Army at 16, but
0:56:31 > 0:56:35no-one's actually said you are not allowed to fight on frontline
0:56:35 > 0:56:40service until you are 18. True, true. Who hasn't had a Hans to
0:56:40 > 0:56:45speak? There are many who have. Have you spoken before, Sir?
0:56:45 > 0:56:49Have a go? The idea that 16 and 17- year-olds are allowed to vote is
0:56:49 > 0:56:54seen as the SNP trying to gerrymander the election in their
0:56:54 > 0:56:57favour. I don't think it will matter. The Prime Minister allowed
0:56:57 > 0:57:03it. There's too many anomalies with independence. The people are not
0:57:03 > 0:57:08going to have it. No matter what they do, one question will kill it
0:57:08 > 0:57:12stone dead if independence is defeated in two years' time, I
0:57:12 > 0:57:15think Nicola knows that. You lost me on whether you are in favour of
0:57:15 > 0:57:2116-year-olds having that say? don't have a particularly strong
0:57:21 > 0:57:24view on that, I just wanted to say that. That was the idea. I can see
0:57:24 > 0:57:28both sides. Thank you very much indeed. You bring us to the end of
0:57:28 > 0:57:33our hour here. We are going to be in Slough next week. We have the
0:57:33 > 0:57:36Business Secretary, Vince Cable, among others. The week after that,
0:57:36 > 0:57:44just ahead of the American presidential election, we are going
0:57:44 > 0:57:47to be in Central London. We have Jerry Springer, the Opera and David
0:57:47 > 0:57:51Miliband, first appearance since you know what on the panel. So if
0:57:51 > 0:57:55you want to come to either of those programmes, you have either got
0:57:55 > 0:58:03Vince Cable or David Miliband or Jerry Springer, just apply on the
0:58:03 > 0:58:08website. The address is on the screen. Or you can ring us. Thank