25/10/2012

2:00:00 > 2:00:00QUESTION TIME FKR Y895P/01 BRD000000

2:38:24 > 2:38:31.

2:38:36 > 2:38:40Good evening, this week's Question Time comes from Slough.

2:38:46 > 2:38:50A big welcome to our audience here, and, of course, to our panel -

2:38:50 > 2:38:52the Business Secretary, Vince Cable,

2:38:52 > 2:38:55shadow Attorney General, Emily Thornberry,

2:38:55 > 2:38:58Conservative MP, Claire Perry,

2:38:58 > 2:39:02the deputy leader of the UK Independence Party, Paul Nuttall,

2:39:02 > 2:39:05and, from the Huffington Post website, Mehdi Hasan.

2:39:05 > 2:39:08APPLAUSE

2:39:18 > 2:39:21Good. Our first question comes from Eamonn Barrett, please.

2:39:21 > 2:39:23Eamonn Barrett.

2:39:23 > 2:39:26With today's announcement on the GDP figures,

2:39:26 > 2:39:29are we seeing the first signs of green shoots?

2:39:29 > 2:39:30Paul Nuttall?

2:39:32 > 2:39:34Well, I think, initially,

2:39:34 > 2:39:35the figures look rather positive.

2:39:35 > 2:39:38Let's thank God that we're out of recession.

2:39:38 > 2:39:40Manufacturing is up,

2:39:40 > 2:39:42unemployment is down.

2:39:42 > 2:39:44But there are some negatives in there.

2:39:44 > 2:39:47The construction industry seems to have bottomed out.

2:39:47 > 2:39:49Youth unemployment is still around 20%,

2:39:49 > 2:39:51which is totally unacceptable.

2:39:51 > 2:39:54And I do question whether these figures are actually real,

2:39:54 > 2:39:57because, if you think of the quarter that these figures were taken,

2:39:57 > 2:40:00it was from July to September, when we had the Olympic bounce.

2:40:00 > 2:40:05In fact, Olympic ticket sales amounted to, I think, 0.2% of GDP.

2:40:05 > 2:40:07Although they're counted in these figures,

2:40:07 > 2:40:11the ticket sales necessarily didn't take place at that point.

2:40:11 > 2:40:13So I do worry that the figures are false

2:40:13 > 2:40:17and I do worry that we will regress, afterwards.

2:40:17 > 2:40:21But the real issue with our economy, at the moment,

2:40:21 > 2:40:23is actually national debt.

2:40:23 > 2:40:25That's more important.

2:40:25 > 2:40:28Because, whilst you're sitting here, watching this programme,

2:40:28 > 2:40:29and for the people at home,

2:40:29 > 2:40:32in the hour that this programme takes place,

2:40:32 > 2:40:37our national debt would have grown by 18.5 million.

2:40:37 > 2:40:39That's 18.5 million, every hour.

2:40:39 > 2:40:42It's about 450 million a day.

2:40:42 > 2:40:47So, by 2014, we could have a national debt of 1.4 trillion.

2:40:47 > 2:40:49And what we're doing is we're putting a noose

2:40:49 > 2:40:51round the neck of our next generation.

2:40:51 > 2:40:54We're putting a noose round the neck of our children

2:40:54 > 2:40:57and our grandchildren because they will have to pay off the debt

2:40:57 > 2:41:00this generation has built up. And I think it's unfair,

2:41:00 > 2:41:03and national debt is something that we have to get hold of.

2:41:03 > 2:41:05I'll go back to the question, I think it is positive

2:41:05 > 2:41:07but I do worry that these are false figures.

2:41:07 > 2:41:10- OK. - APPLAUSE

2:41:11 > 2:41:14Vince Cable, is that an accurate description

2:41:14 > 2:41:16of the way the national debt is going?

2:41:16 > 2:41:19Well, national debt is a problem,

2:41:19 > 2:41:22but it's only one part of a much bigger picture.

2:41:22 > 2:41:24To answer Eamonn's question,

2:41:24 > 2:41:26I wouldn't use the phrase "green shoots."

2:41:26 > 2:41:28It's been used, unfortunately, before.

2:41:28 > 2:41:30I think it's encouraging,

2:41:30 > 2:41:32particularly when you take it in conjunction

2:41:32 > 2:41:34with some of the other things that have happened.

2:41:34 > 2:41:37We've got employment growing, unemployment falling.

2:41:37 > 2:41:41Admittedly, it's too high. We've got inflation falling as well.

2:41:41 > 2:41:43The problem is that...

2:41:43 > 2:41:46our problems, as a country, are very, very deep-rooted.

2:41:47 > 2:41:49We had, what I would call

2:41:49 > 2:41:52the equivalent of an economic heart attack four years ago,

2:41:52 > 2:41:54the financial system almost collapsing.

2:41:54 > 2:41:57It's left a dreadful legacy.

2:41:57 > 2:41:59The banks still don't function properly.

2:41:59 > 2:42:02We've got households, families that still have

2:42:02 > 2:42:05too much debt in many cases, they're worried about spending.

2:42:05 > 2:42:08The Government's inherited this enormous deficit

2:42:08 > 2:42:09we're trying to deal with.

2:42:09 > 2:42:12We've now got serious problems in some of our export markets,

2:42:12 > 2:42:13particularly the eurozone,

2:42:13 > 2:42:16which is partly what accounts for the bad news that we had today

2:42:16 > 2:42:19on the vans being produced in Southampton.

2:42:19 > 2:42:21So the problems are very deep.

2:42:21 > 2:42:24Today's news is encouraging.

2:42:24 > 2:42:26In the Government, what we have to do

2:42:26 > 2:42:28is to try and stick to a sensible path.

2:42:28 > 2:42:30That means partly concentrating on getting

2:42:30 > 2:42:32the finances of the Government in order.

2:42:32 > 2:42:36That's a big, long-term task, and it's difficult.

2:42:36 > 2:42:38But, at the same time, trying to create growth

2:42:38 > 2:42:39on a steady, sustainable basis.

2:42:39 > 2:42:42When you say you won't use the word "green shoots,"

2:42:42 > 2:42:44do you mean you don't anticipate,

2:42:44 > 2:42:47or can't promise that growth is going to go on upwards?

2:42:47 > 2:42:49No, I can't promise. Because it's...

2:42:49 > 2:42:51The phrase that the Governor of the Bank of England

2:42:51 > 2:42:53used this morning is "zigzag."

2:42:53 > 2:42:54That may be what happens.

2:42:54 > 2:42:57There are major areas of weakness in the economy.

2:42:57 > 2:42:59Construction, as Paul said, is one of them,

2:42:59 > 2:43:02the banking sector is another. It's still in terrible shape

2:43:02 > 2:43:05It's still not lending to small businesses.

2:43:05 > 2:43:07Those are the things we've got to work on.

2:43:07 > 2:43:10Eamonn Barrett, you're in the construction industry, aren't you?

2:43:10 > 2:43:13Do you feel there are green shoots around?

2:43:13 > 2:43:15I think things are picking up.

2:43:15 > 2:43:18There's a lot of people I know who weren't working six months ago,

2:43:18 > 2:43:20and now they're working.

2:43:20 > 2:43:24Not full-time, maybe, but a few days a week, and jobs here, jobs there.

2:43:24 > 2:43:26You know, it's definitely picking up, I think, anyway.

2:43:26 > 2:43:27Mehdi Hasan?

2:43:29 > 2:43:32Some of us have been asking the Government for a few months,

2:43:32 > 2:43:33now, what is the Plan B, what's Plan B.

2:43:33 > 2:43:35And we now discover that

2:43:35 > 2:43:37Plan B is, basically, Mo Farah and Jessica Ennis,

2:43:37 > 2:43:40using the Olympics to get this boost.

2:43:40 > 2:43:41I don't get to say this very often,

2:43:41 > 2:43:43but I'm with the deputy leader of UKIP.

2:43:43 > 2:43:45These are false figures.

2:43:45 > 2:43:47They have a one-off boost from the Olympics,

2:43:47 > 2:43:49they have a one-off boost from recovering

2:43:49 > 2:43:51from the Diamond Jubilee Bank Holiday.

2:43:51 > 2:43:53The inconvenient truth is that,

2:43:53 > 2:43:55if you look over the course of a year,

2:43:55 > 2:43:57rather than a single quarter, we haven't grown at all.

2:43:57 > 2:44:00There's been zero growth over the past 12 months.

2:44:00 > 2:44:03The economy today is the same size as it was a year ago.

2:44:03 > 2:44:06In construction, it's 2.5% down. The Government talks about healing.

2:44:06 > 2:44:08David Cameron's been using the phrase "healing."

2:44:08 > 2:44:10Odd kind of healing, if you see your doctor

2:44:10 > 2:44:12and he said, a year after treating you,

2:44:12 > 2:44:14"You're exactly the same as you were a year ago."

2:44:14 > 2:44:16That's how much you've improved.

2:44:16 > 2:44:19Because the medicine's not working, austerity is not working.

2:44:19 > 2:44:21Some of us warned it wouldn't work, back in 2010.

2:44:21 > 2:44:23In fact there was a guy, before the last election,

2:44:23 > 2:44:25I think his name was...Vince Cable,

2:44:25 > 2:44:26who said that if you cut too soon,

2:44:26 > 2:44:28you will tip the country into recession.

2:44:28 > 2:44:30- That's true.- Which is what happened.

2:44:30 > 2:44:33- I wonder what happened to that man...- I can explain!

2:44:33 > 2:44:36- The reality on the ground... - APPLAUSE

2:44:38 > 2:44:40The reality on the ground is the Trussell Trust,

2:44:40 > 2:44:42which runs 270 food banks in this country,

2:44:42 > 2:44:45is feeding 110,000 hungry people over the past six months.

2:44:45 > 2:44:48There's still 2.5 million people unemployed in this country,

2:44:48 > 2:44:51that's on top of 1.4 million who are having to work part-time,

2:44:51 > 2:44:53because they can't find full-time work.

2:44:53 > 2:44:55The question was if these figures...

2:44:55 > 2:44:57There aren't green shoots.

2:44:57 > 2:44:59If I'm one of the long-term unemployed,

2:44:59 > 2:45:03- these aren't green shoots.- It's not going to go on getting better?

2:45:03 > 2:45:06No, I think, next quarter, we won't see anything matching this.

2:45:06 > 2:45:08I think there's a real risk, as many economists in the city warned,

2:45:08 > 2:45:10of a triple-dip recession.

2:45:10 > 2:45:14I think, what you have to look at is what's happening on the ground,

2:45:14 > 2:45:16not one single quarter's figures.

2:45:16 > 2:45:18OK. The woman in the fourth row, with spectacles on.

2:45:18 > 2:45:20How do you suggest we maintain the momentum

2:45:20 > 2:45:22gained by the Olympics for our economy?

2:45:22 > 2:45:24How do you suggest we...

2:45:24 > 2:45:27What, like having Olympics every year?

2:45:27 > 2:45:29We only get it every 50 years,

2:45:29 > 2:45:31so it's not really a viable growth....

2:45:31 > 2:45:35If I could, I think this is probably the most important question,

2:45:35 > 2:45:37so, well done on leading off on it.

2:45:37 > 2:45:42Mehdi, for all your ranting, Mehdi, if this was a single data point,

2:45:42 > 2:45:44there would be some questions around it.

2:45:44 > 2:45:48There is a whole stream of good data that came out, this week.

2:45:48 > 2:45:51We had employment falling, inflation falling...

2:45:51 > 2:45:55- MEDHI:- Part-time jobs.- ..the deficit down by 25% since the election.

2:45:55 > 2:45:57We're coming out of the biggest recession

2:45:57 > 2:46:00we've had in Britain, in peacetime history.

2:46:00 > 2:46:03And we are dealing with it. We are starting to see real growth.

2:46:03 > 2:46:05Yes, the Olympics contributed to that.

2:46:05 > 2:46:08We had the highest rate of business creation ever,

2:46:08 > 2:46:10in this country, last year.

2:46:10 > 2:46:13This is real growth, being generated by the private sector,

2:46:13 > 2:46:16who've created over a million jobs since the election.

2:46:16 > 2:46:19It is real growth. It might be choppy going forwards, but it's real growth.

2:46:19 > 2:46:20Can I just say, though...

2:46:20 > 2:46:23Are the Olympics partly public sector investors?

2:46:23 > 2:46:25That may have something...

2:46:25 > 2:46:27So maybe we need more public sector in this?

2:46:27 > 2:46:30It may explain some of the construction drop off.

2:46:30 > 2:46:32APPLAUSE

2:46:32 > 2:46:34As a government that's undertaking

2:46:34 > 2:46:36all of the really big infrastructure projects

2:46:36 > 2:46:39that have been ducked by the last Labour government -

2:46:39 > 2:46:42renewing sewers, putting in high-speed rail, all the tough stuff,

2:46:42 > 2:46:44it doesn't buy you many votes, but it's the right thing to do.

2:46:44 > 2:46:48Can I just say this? Who, actually, will go home tonight

2:46:48 > 2:46:50and talk about the growth figures and the deficit?

2:46:50 > 2:46:52We won't. We'll go home tonight,

2:46:52 > 2:46:55and talk about the fact that the cost of living is still tough,

2:46:55 > 2:46:57it's 60 shopping days till Christmas,

2:46:57 > 2:46:59people are having to start paying utility bills,

2:46:59 > 2:47:01cos we've got a cold snap coming.

2:47:01 > 2:47:03What we have to keep doing

2:47:03 > 2:47:06is relentlessly focusing on the cost of living.

2:47:06 > 2:47:09Because, in my constituency, we don't talk about the deficit and borrowing,

2:47:09 > 2:47:12we talk about what's coming into our households, and what's going out.

2:47:12 > 2:47:15That's why freezing the council tax, freezing fuel duty,

2:47:15 > 2:47:18these are the things that actually make a difference

2:47:18 > 2:47:19in people's pockets.

2:47:19 > 2:47:22- APPLAUSE - The woman, there.

2:47:23 > 2:47:27As a trade unionist, I object

2:47:27 > 2:47:29to the Government ranting, all the time, about,

2:47:29 > 2:47:32"The Labour Party did this, the Labour Party did this."

2:47:32 > 2:47:35We need to look back at when Margaret Thatcher

2:47:35 > 2:47:38sold off all of the social housing.

2:47:38 > 2:47:39I agree, we've bought our house,

2:47:39 > 2:47:42and I think it's a good opportunity.

2:47:42 > 2:47:46But, it was all flags and whistles.

2:47:46 > 2:47:48Now, there are people

2:47:48 > 2:47:51who can't even afford to live in their own homes.

2:47:51 > 2:47:55There's no social housing, and you expect us to believe you?

2:47:55 > 2:47:56I'm sorry!

2:47:56 > 2:47:58Do you believe the figures

2:47:58 > 2:48:01that show that the double-dip recession may be over,

2:48:01 > 2:48:04or do you think things are going to get worse?

2:48:04 > 2:48:08- I think the figures they put out today are a load of lies.- OK.

2:48:08 > 2:48:10And the woman in red?

2:48:10 > 2:48:11APPLAUSE

2:48:11 > 2:48:14I just wanted to take Claire Perry up on the fact

2:48:14 > 2:48:17that she just said that the deficit was down by 25%.

2:48:17 > 2:48:19Isn't that a complete fallacy?

2:48:19 > 2:48:24I remember watching another news programme, produced by the BBC,

2:48:24 > 2:48:26and they suggested that, actually,

2:48:26 > 2:48:30the data point that George Osborne collected the data from,

2:48:30 > 2:48:33gave this impression that the deficit was down by 25%,

2:48:33 > 2:48:35but, actually, if we wait until the end of the year,

2:48:35 > 2:48:37the deficit's only down by 2.5%.

2:48:37 > 2:48:40Emily Thornberry, would you like to comment on that, and the issue of

2:48:40 > 2:48:43whether the whole thing is a load of lies, in your view?

2:48:43 > 2:48:45Which is the point that was made.

2:48:45 > 2:48:49I think this is good news. I do think it's good news.

2:48:49 > 2:48:51I think 1% growth is good news.

2:48:51 > 2:48:52The reason it's good news

2:48:52 > 2:48:54is because we're coming out of a recession.

2:48:54 > 2:48:56Why are we coming out of a recession?

2:48:56 > 2:48:58Because we've had a second recession.

2:48:58 > 2:49:01We've had a double-dip recession. Why have we had that?

2:49:01 > 2:49:03That's because of choices this Government has made.

2:49:03 > 2:49:06There's only been two countries in the G20 that have had

2:49:06 > 2:49:08a double-dip recession, and one of those has been ours.

2:49:08 > 2:49:10What worries me, is this good news

2:49:10 > 2:49:14will just result in this Government becoming even more complacent.

2:49:14 > 2:49:15They'll sit back and say,

2:49:15 > 2:49:17"Everything's working, everything's fine.

2:49:17 > 2:49:19"We don't need to invest in social housing,

2:49:19 > 2:49:22"We don't need to make sure that we have more jobs for young people."

2:49:22 > 2:49:25Forgive me, but when have you heard anybody said that?

2:49:25 > 2:49:26When have we ever said...?

2:49:26 > 2:49:29Do tell me whether you're going to be investing in social housing.

2:49:29 > 2:49:30Under your government,

2:49:30 > 2:49:32social housing dropped to the lowest level since the 1920s.

2:49:32 > 2:49:36Social housing is one of the biggest problems in my constituency.

2:49:36 > 2:49:40A third of my casework is people who cannot find affordable housing,

2:49:40 > 2:49:43thanks to the disastrous legacy your government left.

2:49:43 > 2:49:46We are doing all we can to build social housing,

2:49:46 > 2:49:48it's the biggest problem facing young people today

2:49:48 > 2:49:50is they can't buy a house or find anywhere to rent.

2:49:50 > 2:49:53You should be apologising, Emily, for your track record.

2:49:53 > 2:49:56APPLAUSE

2:49:57 > 2:50:00In the area that I represent,

2:50:00 > 2:50:0340% of the people in my constituency live in social housing.

2:50:03 > 2:50:05What we did see, over the time of a Labour government,

2:50:05 > 2:50:08since you raise it, Claire, was all the social housing

2:50:08 > 2:50:11in my constituency got done up. It was in the most disgusting state,

2:50:11 > 2:50:14frankly, when the Tories came out of government, and we did it all up.

2:50:14 > 2:50:15I don't think we built enough

2:50:15 > 2:50:18and I think, when we're coming out of a recession,

2:50:18 > 2:50:21what we should be doing is making good decisions

2:50:21 > 2:50:23about how we invest in our infrastructure,

2:50:23 > 2:50:26and we should be investing in our infrastructure by building homes,

2:50:26 > 2:50:28and building homes, particularly, for youngsters.

2:50:28 > 2:50:31I am concerned about long-term unemployment,

2:50:31 > 2:50:34and long-term unemployment amongst the young.

2:50:34 > 2:50:37You know that, in Berkshire, which frankly is a mixed area,

2:50:37 > 2:50:40it has a lot of posh bits, but nevertheless, 12 months ago,

2:50:40 > 2:50:43100 youngsters had been claiming JSA for a year.

2:50:43 > 2:50:48Do you know how many are claiming it now, in Berkshire? 400.

2:50:48 > 2:50:50And 100 of those are in Slough.

2:50:50 > 2:50:52If you are a youngster, if you're 18,

2:50:52 > 2:50:54and you claim benefits for a whole year,

2:50:54 > 2:50:56and you're not able to get a job,

2:50:56 > 2:50:58it will make a huge difference to your life.

2:50:58 > 2:51:01And those mums and dads who've done their best to bring up children

2:51:01 > 2:51:03as best they can, and push them out into the world,

2:51:03 > 2:51:06and the world is just saying, "No, sorry, don't need you.

2:51:06 > 2:51:07"Have you have a younger brother?

2:51:07 > 2:51:10"We might be interested in five years' time."

2:51:10 > 2:51:12That is the tragedy of this recession.

2:51:12 > 2:51:14It is really urgent that we invest now.

2:51:14 > 2:51:16APPLAUSE

2:51:16 > 2:51:20A couple more points. Go on, the man, there, in the middle?

2:51:20 > 2:51:22Thank you. During an earlier recession

2:51:22 > 2:51:26at the beginning of the '90s, which was also quite a bad one,

2:51:26 > 2:51:31not as bad as this one, but, for the years up until 1997,

2:51:31 > 2:51:34the Labour Party said, "Oh, things are still getting worse.

2:51:34 > 2:51:37"Nothing's getting better, we're in recession."

2:51:37 > 2:51:39They ridiculed John Major they ridiculed Ken Clarke,

2:51:39 > 2:51:41they ridiculed Norman Lamont.

2:51:41 > 2:51:45And, lo and behold, about four or five years after...

2:51:47 > 2:51:50..they suddenly thought that, now Labour was in power,

2:51:50 > 2:51:52things have turned round, are getting better.

2:51:52 > 2:51:57Actually the statistics were so far out of date...

2:51:57 > 2:51:59as to be laughable.

2:51:59 > 2:52:01What we need are accurate statistics,

2:52:01 > 2:52:05independent statistics, which we should be getting now.

2:52:05 > 2:52:09- They are, sir. Sorry to interrupt you.- But are they any more accurate?

2:52:09 > 2:52:12We set up the Office for Budget Responsibility,

2:52:12 > 2:52:14not necessarily something Gordon Brown

2:52:14 > 2:52:16and the previous government believed in,

2:52:16 > 2:52:20to try and address the problem that the Treasury made up the numbers.

2:52:20 > 2:52:24Now we have an independently-verified set of numbers...

2:52:24 > 2:52:26They might well get revised...

2:52:26 > 2:52:29Which the Prime Minister is ticked off for announcing in advance...

2:52:29 > 2:52:31He didn't announce it...

2:52:31 > 2:52:33On the OBR - the Office of Budget Responsibility

2:52:33 > 2:52:35predicted in 2010, two years ago,

2:52:35 > 2:52:40that, by now, we would have had 4.6% of growth. 4.6%.

2:52:40 > 2:52:44Do you know how much growth we've had over two years? Claire?

2:52:44 > 2:52:47- We've had...- 0.6% versus 4.6%. That is a failure.

2:52:47 > 2:52:49Claire, I'll curtail your contribution

2:52:49 > 2:52:52in favour of Vince Cable. You are both part of the same coalition.

2:52:52 > 2:52:54And he is a far more senior member.

2:52:54 > 2:52:57He's not a senior member, he's the Secretary of State...

2:52:57 > 2:52:58There is a striking irony.

2:52:58 > 2:53:01When we had bad news, the last few quarters,

2:53:01 > 2:53:03most of our critics rushed out and said,

2:53:03 > 2:53:07"This is a complete disaster, the figures were obviously right."

2:53:07 > 2:53:09Now we've got good figures, our critics say,

2:53:09 > 2:53:12- "They're obviously fixed!" - APPLAUSE

2:53:12 > 2:53:14- MEHDI:- They're inflated.

2:53:16 > 2:53:19If I could deal with the criticism I had a few moments ago

2:53:19 > 2:53:21about cutting too fast.

2:53:21 > 2:53:23I did say that, and I would still say that.

2:53:23 > 2:53:27The Government has a very difficult balancing act.

2:53:27 > 2:53:29And you got it wrong.

2:53:29 > 2:53:32No, we have to cut our deficit.

2:53:32 > 2:53:35It is massive, the biggest in the developed world.

2:53:35 > 2:53:38An enormous budget deficit - we have to deal with it.

2:53:38 > 2:53:41If we do it too fast, you're right, you do drive the economy down.

2:53:41 > 2:53:43If you don't do it fast enough,

2:53:43 > 2:53:46you lose the confidence of the people lending to you.

2:53:46 > 2:53:48Striking that balance is extraordinarily difficult.

2:53:48 > 2:53:52The bit of austerity that did the biggest damage

2:53:52 > 2:53:55was in 2009-10.

2:53:55 > 2:53:59I think the then-Chancellor slashed the public investment,

2:53:59 > 2:54:02in the things Claire was talking about. Infrastructure.

2:54:02 > 2:54:05That has done terrible damage to the construction industry.

2:54:05 > 2:54:07We've steadily rebuilt that.

2:54:07 > 2:54:10We have to get the budget deficit under control.

2:54:10 > 2:54:12We argue it should be done over a six-year period.

2:54:12 > 2:54:15You may argue that that is too quick.

2:54:15 > 2:54:18The Labour Party have said it should be over seven years. Big deal(!)

2:54:18 > 2:54:21Forgive me, Vince, but they haven't said...

2:54:21 > 2:54:24Emily, you may say we've got it wrong...

2:54:24 > 2:54:26If I get a word in edgeways.

2:54:26 > 2:54:29You've said you would like to cut the deficit. What would you cut?

2:54:29 > 2:54:31Name one thing that the Labour Party has supported us on

2:54:31 > 2:54:35- in terms of reductions... - Emily, a brief answer.

2:54:35 > 2:54:39I think we should be responsible when it comes to cutting back money

2:54:39 > 2:54:41that we are investing in the police force.

2:54:41 > 2:54:44I think you are cutting the police force far too much.

2:54:44 > 2:54:47We've lost 6,000 front-line police officers.

2:54:47 > 2:54:49And crime is at its lowest level...

2:54:49 > 2:54:52- Emily.- If you want me to answer, let me answer.

2:54:52 > 2:54:55If you go and cut investment in police officers,

2:54:55 > 2:54:59you were warned that you would lose front-line police officers.

2:54:59 > 2:55:02I think the question was, "Where would you cut?"

2:55:02 > 2:55:05What we've said is we would cut investment,

2:55:05 > 2:55:08cut the money we pay to the police force,

2:55:08 > 2:55:10in line with that which has been advised,

2:55:10 > 2:55:14which would not result in cuts in front-line police officers.

2:55:14 > 2:55:17That is the difference between what you're doing,

2:55:17 > 2:55:18which is going too far and too fast

2:55:18 > 2:55:21and resulting in a double-dip recession.

2:55:21 > 2:55:24Of course we have to pay back the debt and the deficit,

2:55:24 > 2:55:26but we have to do it in a responsible way

2:55:26 > 2:55:30- that keeps us together as a country. - We must go on.

2:55:30 > 2:55:34I must ask the panellists to speak slightly less long,

2:55:34 > 2:55:35or at slightly less length,

2:55:35 > 2:55:38so we can get more members of the audience in.

2:55:38 > 2:55:40And the panellists can come back on each other.

2:55:40 > 2:55:43If you want to join in the debate tonight,

2:55:43 > 2:55:45on Twitter, you can go there...

2:55:50 > 2:55:52We have our Twitter panellist there.

2:55:52 > 2:55:54You can text comments.

2:55:54 > 2:55:58You can press the red button on the...thingy...

2:55:58 > 2:56:01- to see what others are saying. - LAUGHTER

2:56:01 > 2:56:04- What do you call that? A "zapper"! - The remote.

2:56:04 > 2:56:07The remote... I thought you tapped the red screen... Anyway.

2:56:07 > 2:56:09Let's go onto another question.

2:56:09 > 2:56:12Angela Kirk has this one.

2:56:12 > 2:56:15Is the proposal to limit Child Benefit to the first two children

2:56:15 > 2:56:17fair and reasonable?

2:56:17 > 2:56:22This is a proposal that Iain Duncan Smith has been making,

2:56:22 > 2:56:24these last two days.

2:56:24 > 2:56:27He made a speech this evening saying that the benefits system

2:56:27 > 2:56:29promoted destructive behaviour,

2:56:29 > 2:56:32and, on the Today programme, he said,

2:56:32 > 2:56:37"My view is that you need a cap on child benefits at two children.

2:56:37 > 2:56:41"For those who begin to have more than, say, two children,

2:56:41 > 2:56:43"you should stop it."

2:56:43 > 2:56:46Is it a good idea for the Government to do this?

2:56:46 > 2:56:49Is the Government going to do it? Emily Thornberry.

2:56:49 > 2:56:53Well, I think... I don't really know where to start with this.

2:56:53 > 2:56:55I think it is absolutely extraordinary

2:56:55 > 2:56:57for politicians to go around pontificating

2:56:57 > 2:57:00and telling people how many children they should have.

2:57:00 > 2:57:04I think people have children for love, not for money.

2:57:04 > 2:57:07It is extraordinary. I do think it's a distraction technique.

2:57:07 > 2:57:09I think it is trying to distract the public

2:57:09 > 2:57:12from what this government is actually doing.

2:57:12 > 2:57:14Iain Duncan Smith has agreed

2:57:14 > 2:57:17to cut another £10 billion from the welfare budget.

2:57:17 > 2:57:20That's at the same time

2:57:20 > 2:57:24as them giving £40,000 tax cuts to millionaires.

2:57:24 > 2:57:27So they give the millionaires £40,000 and they expect the poorest

2:57:27 > 2:57:31to be making their contribution by another £10 billion.

2:57:31 > 2:57:34How can it be that they can start making decisions

2:57:34 > 2:57:37about how many children people should have and start penalising people?

2:57:37 > 2:57:39Presumably...

2:57:39 > 2:57:41Is there a difference between telling people how many children

2:57:41 > 2:57:43they can have, as in China,

2:57:43 > 2:57:46and not giving benefit to families with more than two children?

2:57:46 > 2:57:48Is there a difference?

2:57:48 > 2:57:51APPLAUSE

2:57:53 > 2:57:56If you're the fourth child born into a poor family,

2:57:56 > 2:58:00and your family are therefore getting no money, is it your fault?

2:58:00 > 2:58:03Should you be in a family that's even poorer?

2:58:03 > 2:58:06What do they expect people to do? Starve their children?

2:58:06 > 2:58:08What are they expecting here?

2:58:08 > 2:58:11Surely we should have a government that cares about child poverty,

2:58:11 > 2:58:13that wants to do something about it,

2:58:13 > 2:58:15that doesn't start trying to penalise people

2:58:15 > 2:58:18because of the choices they've made. APPLAUSE

2:58:18 > 2:58:20It seems to me the most dreadful thing.

2:58:20 > 2:58:23We talk about how they wanted to move away from being "the nasty party"

2:58:23 > 2:58:26but it strikes me this is exactly from that stable.

2:58:26 > 2:58:28Paul Nuttall?

2:58:28 > 2:58:30SCATTERED APPLAUSE

2:58:30 > 2:58:34I must say, I must pay tribute to Iain Duncan Smith.

2:58:34 > 2:58:36This is a guy who knows his brief.

2:58:36 > 2:58:40He spent eight years researching this before he went into government.

2:58:40 > 2:58:43- He refused to be moved in the reshuffle, as well.- Yes.

2:58:43 > 2:58:45He understands his brief.

2:58:45 > 2:58:47I don't agree with much that the Coalition does,

2:58:47 > 2:58:50but I do believe that they are getting this right

2:58:50 > 2:58:52on welfare and benefits.

2:58:52 > 2:58:54Under Labour, welfare exploded.

2:58:54 > 2:58:59It rose by 60% between 1997 and 2010.

2:58:59 > 2:59:01It was unsustainable.

2:59:01 > 2:59:05It's cost each household, in tax, £3,000 a year.

2:59:05 > 2:59:06But what we must be careful of doing

2:59:06 > 2:59:10is we shouldn't stigmatise people on welfare.

2:59:10 > 2:59:13There are graduates coming out of university who can't jobs.

2:59:13 > 2:59:16There are people who are being affected by the cuts

2:59:16 > 2:59:19who are coming out of work and can't get jobs.

2:59:19 > 2:59:24However, there is a growing underclass in this country.

2:59:24 > 2:59:26You know, I'm from Bootle,

2:59:26 > 2:59:29which is one of the poorest constituencies in the country.

2:59:29 > 2:59:33We have the lowest life expectancy in England.

2:59:33 > 2:59:34And I see it every day.

2:59:34 > 2:59:38You've got one family who live there. Dad goes out to work,

2:59:38 > 2:59:41maybe on the docks, maybe in a factory.

2:59:41 > 2:59:45Mum goes out, stacks shelves in ASDA. They live within their means.

2:59:45 > 2:59:47They make that decision.

2:59:47 > 2:59:50Then you've got the family next door on benefits,

2:59:50 > 2:59:53who still have the flat-screen television, still have a car

2:59:53 > 2:59:57and can afford to go on holiday once a year.

2:59:57 > 2:59:58What it's doing, this system,

2:59:58 > 3:00:01is creating resentment within the working-class community

3:00:01 > 3:00:03and splitting the working-class community.

3:00:03 > 3:00:05APPLAUSE

3:00:09 > 3:00:10Can I just say...?

3:00:10 > 3:00:12Paul, I'll come back to you.

3:00:12 > 3:00:15The gentleman in blue and then the woman in red.

3:00:15 > 3:00:18I think the issue is parental responsibility. I've got a son.

3:00:18 > 3:00:21I wouldn't bring another child into the world

3:00:21 > 3:00:23if I couldn't afford to pay for a second child.

3:00:23 > 3:00:25Absolutely.

3:00:25 > 3:00:27I think it's a naive view...

3:00:27 > 3:00:29APPLAUSE

3:00:29 > 3:00:32It's a naive view to say that people

3:00:32 > 3:00:34bring children into the world for love, because...

3:00:34 > 3:00:38it's a fact, some people have children simply to claim benefits.

3:00:38 > 3:00:39It's unfortunate,

3:00:39 > 3:00:43but successive governments have not anything about it.

3:00:43 > 3:00:47The woman in the third row from the back, with spectacles.

3:00:47 > 3:00:49It's all very well to say that people should limit their families,

3:00:49 > 3:00:52but what about the family with three or four children now,

3:00:52 > 3:00:54who suddenly would find their Child Benefit cut?

3:00:54 > 3:00:57Are they supposed to throw a child into the bushes and just keep two(?)

3:00:57 > 3:00:59Claire Perry?

3:00:59 > 3:01:01Mrs Kirk, you may be better informed than me.

3:01:01 > 3:01:05I think IDS was talking about the overall benefit package,

3:01:05 > 3:01:07not Child Benefit.

3:01:07 > 3:01:10Child Benefit is already being restructured.

3:01:10 > 3:01:11It's not going to be paid

3:01:11 > 3:01:15to the richest 15% of families in the country.

3:01:15 > 3:01:19The average salary of people in my constituency is £25,000.

3:01:19 > 3:01:21I don't think it's fair to tax those people

3:01:21 > 3:01:24to pay child benefits to MPs like Emily and I.

3:01:24 > 3:01:27"Child-related benefits," was his words.

3:01:27 > 3:01:29I do agree with the gentleman in the blue,

3:01:29 > 3:01:31it's in the question of fairness.

3:01:31 > 3:01:35I don't think it's fair that families on benefits...

3:01:35 > 3:01:37I don't want to stigmatise. I disagree with you, Paul -

3:01:37 > 3:01:40you can't stigmatise and characterise people in certain ways,

3:01:40 > 3:01:43but it is not fair that the decisions they make

3:01:43 > 3:01:47are different from the decisions that people in work have to make.

3:01:47 > 3:01:50Many people think very hard about the cost of bring up the child,

3:01:50 > 3:01:52the cost of moving house,

3:01:52 > 3:01:55what it would cost to provide an extra bedroom.

3:01:55 > 3:01:58What Iain Duncan Smith is saying is people on benefits

3:01:58 > 3:02:00should be making those same sorts of decisions.

3:02:00 > 3:02:03Is it fair and reasonable, in your view,

3:02:03 > 3:02:06to limit these child-related benefits?

3:02:06 > 3:02:08I think it is fair and reasonable.

3:02:08 > 3:02:10I would want to see the transitional arrangements, though.

3:02:10 > 3:02:13Of course, you wouldn't expect families who already have

3:02:13 > 3:02:16three or four children to suddenly lose it.

3:02:16 > 3:02:19You would want to provide a very strong signal, going forward,

3:02:19 > 3:02:21and making sure it is transitional.

3:02:21 > 3:02:24It is fair that people on benefits

3:02:24 > 3:02:26have to think the same way as people in work.

3:02:26 > 3:02:28We want people on benefits to move into work,

3:02:28 > 3:02:30not to be on benefits for a lifetime.

3:02:30 > 3:02:33APPLAUSE

3:02:33 > 3:02:34Mehdi Hasan?

3:02:34 > 3:02:37I think the Government has a wonderful new slogan,

3:02:37 > 3:02:40"Tough on babies, tough on the causes of babies"(!)

3:02:40 > 3:02:42HANDCLAPS

3:02:42 > 3:02:46I was astonished at where this coalition goes with these policies

3:02:46 > 3:02:48and where it comes up with these policies

3:02:48 > 3:02:51Paul, with respect, you say we have a system that creates resentment.

3:02:51 > 3:02:53No, we have politicians who create resentment,

3:02:53 > 3:02:57when they talk about people with flat-screen TVs and holidays.

3:02:57 > 3:03:00Let's cut through the myths and lies for a second.

3:03:00 > 3:03:03In this country, Iain Duncan Smith is talking about poverty,

3:03:03 > 3:03:05child poverty and welfare.

3:03:05 > 3:03:08In this country, six out of ten children who live in child poverty

3:03:08 > 3:03:11live in working, not work-less households,

3:03:11 > 3:03:14but we stigmatise them as living in lazy, feckless households.

3:03:14 > 3:03:16- APPLAUSE - As for large families,

3:03:16 > 3:03:19which Iain Duncan Smith talked about on the Today programme,

3:03:19 > 3:03:22if you look at his own department's figures,

3:03:22 > 3:03:26there are 40,000 families claiming out-of-work child-related benefits

3:03:26 > 3:03:30who have five kids or more. Which is 3% of the total.

3:03:30 > 3:03:34In fact, 80% of people claiming child-related benefits

3:03:34 > 3:03:35have two kids or less.

3:03:35 > 3:03:37Let's not generalise,

3:03:37 > 3:03:40based on Daily Mail scare stories about one woman with ten kids.

3:03:40 > 3:03:42The gentleman in the audience,

3:03:42 > 3:03:45I take your point about your own situation. But if, tomorrow,

3:03:45 > 3:03:48thanks to this government's mismanagement of the economy,

3:03:48 > 3:03:50you lost your job, would you want to lose your benefits

3:03:50 > 3:03:53through no fault of your own? Would your child have to suffer?

3:03:53 > 3:03:54That's not what I said.

3:03:54 > 3:03:57My point was that people need to take more responsibility.

3:03:57 > 3:03:59But what if you lose your job?

3:03:59 > 3:04:01If you lose your responsibility, you are a viable case.

3:04:01 > 3:04:04It should be done on a case-by-case basis,

3:04:04 > 3:04:06not, "I have five children, I get this much money."

3:04:06 > 3:04:07That's not what I said.

3:04:07 > 3:04:10Paul Nuttall, you want to come back

3:04:10 > 3:04:13on the point Mehdi said about your characterisation... ?

3:04:13 > 3:04:14I think you'd have to be mad to claim

3:04:14 > 3:04:18that there isn't a significant underclass in this country.

3:04:18 > 3:04:20I'm mad.

3:04:20 > 3:04:21I'm telling you,

3:04:21 > 3:04:23there is a significant underclass in this country

3:04:23 > 3:04:28and it has been borne out of a benefits and welfare system which...

3:04:28 > 3:04:32It is borne out of unemployment! It is borne out of unemployment!

3:04:32 > 3:04:344 million people in this country are looking for work.

3:04:34 > 3:04:37One at a time! Mehdi, you've had your say.

3:04:37 > 3:04:39Let him reply to the attack you made.

3:04:39 > 3:04:42Whoever set it up didn't mean it to be set up like this.

3:04:42 > 3:04:45What we've got at the moment is a benefits system

3:04:45 > 3:04:49which should be a safety net for the needy, but in some cases,

3:04:49 > 3:04:53and I hasten to say, in SOME cases, what it's become is a career path

3:04:53 > 3:04:55and a vehicle for people who just don't want to work.

3:04:55 > 3:04:57APPLAUSE

3:04:57 > 3:05:01- Can I come back to that? - No, in a moment, you can.

3:05:01 > 3:05:05Vince Cable, is this a proposal that you support?

3:05:05 > 3:05:08No, and if that is the proposal, it wouldn't be fair and reasonable.

3:05:08 > 3:05:12It isn't Government policy. I don't think that's what he said.

3:05:12 > 3:05:16If you're talking about Child Benefit, Claire accurately described

3:05:16 > 3:05:20the way we are changing it - to withdraw it from high earners.

3:05:20 > 3:05:22If you're talking about Child Tax Credit,

3:05:22 > 3:05:25which is what people get when they're in work,

3:05:25 > 3:05:29and, as Mehdi said, most people who are poor are in work...

3:05:29 > 3:05:32Child Tax Credit has been significantly increased.

3:05:32 > 3:05:36So hold on, you are in the Government with him,

3:05:36 > 3:05:38at Work and Pensions,

3:05:38 > 3:05:41and what he said on the Today programme was,

3:05:41 > 3:05:45he suggested a cap on child-related benefits at two children.

3:05:45 > 3:05:47Well, we don't agree with that.

3:05:47 > 3:05:49So that won't happen, you'll block it?

3:05:49 > 3:05:52We've made it clear we will not go along with welfare cuts

3:05:52 > 3:05:56- which are unfair.- And you deem two-children families...?

3:05:56 > 3:05:58That is almost certainly right.

3:05:58 > 3:06:01Sorry, just to get this absolutely clear.

3:06:01 > 3:06:05It's unfair because it says, "Two children and that's it"?

3:06:05 > 3:06:07Yes. That's exactly right.

3:06:07 > 3:06:10What we do feel, I would say this,

3:06:10 > 3:06:14Iain is a very decent, humane and good minister.

3:06:14 > 3:06:16The principle he is trying to address,

3:06:16 > 3:06:18and has done since we came in,

3:06:18 > 3:06:21is that it is fundamentally unfair for people

3:06:21 > 3:06:23to be better off out of work than in work.

3:06:23 > 3:06:26That's the fundamental unfairness that he is trying to deal with.

3:06:26 > 3:06:29We are trying to deal with that through welfare reform,

3:06:29 > 3:06:30through the universal credit.

3:06:30 > 3:06:33Iain deserves as lot of praise for what he's done in that respect.

3:06:33 > 3:06:35This particular proposal -

3:06:35 > 3:06:38I don't know whether this is kite flying

3:06:38 > 3:06:42- or a misunderstanding of what he said - wouldn't be acceptable.- OK.

3:06:42 > 3:06:44Emily, briefly if you would then we must move on.

3:06:44 > 3:06:48Some members of the panel are labouring under this misunderstanding

3:06:48 > 3:06:51about the number of people who are working and also getting benefits.

3:06:51 > 3:06:54You talked at the beginning of the programme, sir,

3:06:54 > 3:06:55about how some of your friends

3:06:55 > 3:06:57are starting to work, but they are working part-time.

3:06:57 > 3:06:59The only way in which people can work part-time

3:06:59 > 3:07:01and make ends meet in somewhere like Berkshire

3:07:01 > 3:07:03is if they're getting housing benefit,

3:07:03 > 3:07:06tax credits and child benefit.

3:07:06 > 3:07:08They do their best to get a job.

3:07:08 > 3:07:10They are striving away,

3:07:10 > 3:07:13but the idea that some government then turns around and says,

3:07:13 > 3:07:16"I'm sorry, but you're on benefits and you've got two children.

3:07:16 > 3:07:19"We're going to have to start taking your money away." What is this about?

3:07:19 > 3:07:22This is not about a party that is interested in one nation.

3:07:22 > 3:07:24Can I say one other thing?

3:07:24 > 3:07:26I hear what Vince says

3:07:26 > 3:07:30about this brave new world that IDS is bringing in.

3:07:30 > 3:07:32Everyone within Westminster knows

3:07:32 > 3:07:34that the Universal Credit is in trouble...

3:07:34 > 3:07:38- CLAIRE:- That's not true. - ..their IT programme is over budget.

3:07:38 > 3:07:40It is coming in much later.

3:07:40 > 3:07:42We also know that there were all sorts of rumours

3:07:42 > 3:07:44about them trying to sack IDS,

3:07:44 > 3:07:45Frankly, this is a distraction.

3:07:45 > 3:07:48This is him desperately trying to hold onto his job and saying,

3:07:48 > 3:07:51"Look, David Cameron, I can push us up in the polls..."

3:07:51 > 3:07:53- Oh, really?- "..by coming out with this sort of nonsense."

3:07:53 > 3:07:56You can answer that point. Is he trying to hold onto his job?

3:07:56 > 3:08:00- Is he in danger of being sacked? - IDS recognises the problem

3:08:00 > 3:08:03that we have five million people of working age

3:08:03 > 3:08:05receiving benefits in this country.

3:08:05 > 3:08:08We created 2.4 million jobs under Emily's government

3:08:08 > 3:08:12and half of them went to people who came from abroad...

3:08:12 > 3:08:13Hang on a second.

3:08:13 > 3:08:16You can go on for hours about the many problems,

3:08:16 > 3:08:19the question is, is IDS just saying this?

3:08:19 > 3:08:22Vince Cable said it might be kite-flying, is it?

3:08:22 > 3:08:28IDS is 100% committed to resolving the very tough problems we have.

3:08:28 > 3:08:33We have an incredibly complex, badly-structured welfare system.

3:08:33 > 3:08:35You think his job's safe?

3:08:35 > 3:08:38The most popular thing we have done is introduce a welfare cap

3:08:38 > 3:08:42that means people on benefits can't earn more than those in work.

3:08:42 > 3:08:45Emily voted against that. It's shocking.

3:08:45 > 3:08:48The man in the third row, please. And then we must move on.

3:08:48 > 3:08:49And then the woman there, yes.

3:08:49 > 3:08:54I'm not a UKIP man but I do agree with Paul Nuttall on this.

3:08:54 > 3:08:56He mentioned the term resentment

3:08:56 > 3:08:59and it's causing resentment amongst the working classes.

3:08:59 > 3:09:00That is true,

3:09:00 > 3:09:04but I think the bigger resentment that people are not looking at is...

3:09:04 > 3:09:06We're talking about trying to shave off tens of billions,

3:09:06 > 3:09:10but the hundreds of billions, possibly even trillions

3:09:10 > 3:09:13that are avoided in terms of taxation

3:09:13 > 3:09:15and I think that should be...

3:09:15 > 3:09:16- CLAIRE:- Absolutely.

3:09:16 > 3:09:19- All right.- That should be the very, very incisive focus.

3:09:19 > 3:09:24There's quicker wins there if there's the willpower to do it.

3:09:24 > 3:09:25Claire said at the beginning

3:09:25 > 3:09:27that we should back off the financial sector,

3:09:27 > 3:09:30- there is always some protectionism going on...- Oh, no, not quite.

3:09:30 > 3:09:33- ..and that I find more resentful. - All right.

3:09:33 > 3:09:37The woman there in red, who I said I would come to.

3:09:37 > 3:09:38What I was going to say was

3:09:38 > 3:09:41they could recoup a lot of money

3:09:41 > 3:09:46by hitting hard at people who defraud the benefit service

3:09:46 > 3:09:49instead of nowadays, they just get a slap on the wrist.

3:09:49 > 3:09:53All right. The woman at the back, in the back row.

3:09:53 > 3:09:55Good evening, bearing in mind

3:09:55 > 3:10:00that we have the highest number of single mothers in Europe,

3:10:00 > 3:10:03why should single women who choose to become pregnant,

3:10:03 > 3:10:06get free housing and benefits,

3:10:06 > 3:10:11whereas other young people work hard, pay tax

3:10:11 > 3:10:14- and can hardly afford a one-bedroomed home?- OK.

3:10:14 > 3:10:18APPLAUSE

3:10:18 > 3:10:20And you, sir.

3:10:20 > 3:10:23I was wondering where you are getting these numbers from?

3:10:23 > 3:10:26I got a sense that the Conservative government

3:10:26 > 3:10:29is speaking the numbers that are suitable for them,

3:10:29 > 3:10:31but the real numbers,

3:10:31 > 3:10:33the numbers that are showing the problems for everybody

3:10:33 > 3:10:40is somehow being hidden or brushed under the carpet all of the time.

3:10:40 > 3:10:42What do you mean? The statistics are wrong?

3:10:42 > 3:10:46The statistics are being picked up by certain...

3:10:46 > 3:10:49The good statistics are being picked up, but proper statistics

3:10:49 > 3:10:52are not being brought up into the air and discussed.

3:10:52 > 3:10:56We have to leave it there. We have many more questions.

3:10:56 > 3:10:59I would like to go on to one from Catherine Sharpe, please.

3:10:59 > 3:11:03Has the BBC been fatally damaged in the public's mind

3:11:03 > 3:11:06as a result of the Jimmy Savile scandal?

3:11:06 > 3:11:10- Claire Perry. - D'you know, the more that comes out,

3:11:10 > 3:11:12as somebody who used to love Jim'll Fix It,

3:11:12 > 3:11:16the more disgusting and distressing actually the situation is.

3:11:16 > 3:11:20Frankly, the man was a predatory paedophile

3:11:20 > 3:11:22who plied his trade for 40 years

3:11:22 > 3:11:25under five successive director generals.

3:11:25 > 3:11:28I don't think it's particularly helpful now to have a firestorm

3:11:28 > 3:11:31over who knew what when in the Newsnight programme.

3:11:31 > 3:11:33The thing I find most worrying,

3:11:33 > 3:11:36and I think it's the same in the Rochdale grooming cases,

3:11:36 > 3:11:39is the voices of the victims I think have been completely ignored,

3:11:39 > 3:11:41and I am sick to death

3:11:41 > 3:11:44of young women coming forward years later for whatever reason,

3:11:44 > 3:11:46not feeling that they could be believed or listened to

3:11:46 > 3:11:48and that, I think, is the real tragedy.

3:11:48 > 3:11:51I want to focus on that and make sure that doesn't happen again.

3:11:51 > 3:11:55The BBC is doing too much navel-gazing

3:11:55 > 3:11:57over who knew what when.

3:11:59 > 3:12:00Mehdi Hasan.

3:12:02 > 3:12:03For the first time in my life,

3:12:03 > 3:12:05I literally agree with every single word

3:12:05 > 3:12:07that Claire Perry just said.

3:12:07 > 3:12:09We'll get you voting Tory one day, Mehdi.

3:12:09 > 3:12:11Not quite, because a lot of your fellow Tory MPs

3:12:11 > 3:12:12are pushing the anti-BBC banner.

3:12:12 > 3:12:15I agree with you, the BBC has clearly failed in many areas -

3:12:15 > 3:12:17there's two investigations going on.

3:12:17 > 3:12:18Let's wait for their results.

3:12:18 > 3:12:22I suspect the BBC won't come out so well out of either of them.

3:12:22 > 3:12:24Let's not be distracted by this media navel-gazing,

3:12:24 > 3:12:27whether Panorama is leading on Newsnight,

3:12:27 > 3:12:30Newsnight is leading on Panorama, the Ten O'Clock News is leading on both.

3:12:30 > 3:12:33It's absolutely absurd the kind of journalists obsessing over the BBC.

3:12:33 > 3:12:37Whatever they did wrong, and we don't know what they did wrong,

3:12:37 > 3:12:40George Entwistle and Peter Rippon did not sexually abuse children,

3:12:40 > 3:12:42Jimmy Savile did.

3:12:42 > 3:12:45Jimmy Savile got away with it, those women were abused and ignored.

3:12:45 > 3:12:47We need to focus on how he got away with it and -

3:12:47 > 3:12:50I'm sorry if this sounds cliched - to stop such things happening again.

3:12:50 > 3:12:53That surely is the priority here, giving those women voices.

3:12:53 > 3:12:55Trying to get closure, trying to get some justice,

3:12:55 > 3:12:56and I'm glad the CPS this week

3:12:56 > 3:12:59has actually come out with practical things that it'll do

3:12:59 > 3:13:02to try and investigate these crimes and stop this from happening again.

3:13:02 > 3:13:06This is not a media regulation story, this is a child sex abuse story.

3:13:06 > 3:13:08The woman there.

3:13:12 > 3:13:14In this vast media industry,

3:13:14 > 3:13:16I think Jimmy Savile is just the tip of the iceberg

3:13:16 > 3:13:19because as the two women in the panel here...

3:13:19 > 3:13:21I don't think he is the only one.

3:13:21 > 3:13:25There are many men, most men are in the top jobs here

3:13:25 > 3:13:29and this is what they do to most women and what do they say to them?

3:13:29 > 3:13:31"If you do this, that's how you'll stay on the job."

3:13:31 > 3:13:34That's the main reason why they kept their mouths closed.

3:13:34 > 3:13:37This is an assumption I'm making, but...

3:13:37 > 3:13:39MEHDI: A pretty big one!

3:13:39 > 3:13:42..as an inspiring journalist, it's quite scary,

3:13:42 > 3:13:46because you hear these kinds of stories and you are scared.

3:13:46 > 3:13:47You're like,

3:13:47 > 3:13:50"What'll happen next if a person like Jimmy Savile

3:13:50 > 3:13:52"did something like that?"

3:13:52 > 3:13:53Paul Nuttall.

3:13:54 > 3:13:56I think the one thing that's upset me really

3:13:56 > 3:13:59about this story over the past couple of weeks,

3:13:59 > 3:14:00is that people are talking about it

3:14:00 > 3:14:04as if that was the culture in the 1970s.

3:14:04 > 3:14:06But look, paedophilia isn't about culture,

3:14:06 > 3:14:11paedophilia is a serious crime and it needs to be knocked out.

3:14:11 > 3:14:16But in terms of the BBC, I agree with John Simpson.

3:14:16 > 3:14:19I think the BBC is facing the biggest crisis

3:14:19 > 3:14:22that it's faced in the past 50 years.

3:14:22 > 3:14:25Now we have got people passing the buck,

3:14:25 > 3:14:28people trying to pass the blame onto people

3:14:28 > 3:14:31who are lower down the food chain, shall we say, in the BBC.

3:14:31 > 3:14:33I haven't lost confidence in the BBC,

3:14:33 > 3:14:35I've lost confidence in the BBC hierarchy.

3:14:35 > 3:14:41I feel as if there's a bit of inevitability about this now.

3:14:41 > 3:14:45Like the Andrew Mitchell case, I think it's gone on too long.

3:14:45 > 3:14:49It's only going to get bigger and in the end, heads will roll,

3:14:49 > 3:14:52and I suspect it will end up with the director general having to go.

3:14:52 > 3:14:57But, look, the real point in this is that 300 people have come forward

3:14:57 > 3:14:59and said that they have been victims.

3:14:59 > 3:15:01They're the people we should be focusing on

3:15:01 > 3:15:04and we should wish the police well in their investigations

3:15:04 > 3:15:06because there are perpetrators still out there

3:15:06 > 3:15:08who need to be brought to justice.

3:15:08 > 3:15:11Now, what do we do with Savile himself?

3:15:11 > 3:15:13His gravestone has been removed.

3:15:13 > 3:15:16We've had street names which have been taken down.

3:15:16 > 3:15:19I would suggest the next move in how to deal with Jimmy Savile

3:15:19 > 3:15:21would be to strip him of his knighthood.

3:15:21 > 3:15:23It'll take a change in the law. Let's do it.

3:15:23 > 3:15:24Strip him of his knighthood and also,

3:15:24 > 3:15:26let's get the Catholic church

3:15:26 > 3:15:29to do away with his papal knighthood to boot,

3:15:29 > 3:15:31because that man needs to be punished even in death.

3:15:36 > 3:15:37You, sir, on the gangway there.

3:15:39 > 3:15:41Do you think that everyone in entertainment,

3:15:41 > 3:15:45dealing with young children, should have a CRB check?

3:15:45 > 3:15:48- Vince Cable, I'm sure they do, don't they?- I'm sure they do.

3:15:48 > 3:15:51If they're employed they will have CRB checks.

3:15:51 > 3:15:55Can I just go back to the original question, which Catherine asked?

3:15:55 > 3:15:57"Is the BBC fatally damaged?"

3:15:57 > 3:16:00It is damaged, but not fatally.

3:16:00 > 3:16:01I would say in its defence,

3:16:01 > 3:16:04what other media organisation in the world

3:16:04 > 3:16:06would put out a programme attacking itself,

3:16:06 > 3:16:09which is what it did with the Panorama programme?

3:16:09 > 3:16:11I mean, rather brutally exposed the complete failure.

3:16:11 > 3:16:15I think the public almost certainly do wonder

3:16:15 > 3:16:18what on earth these extraordinary highly-paid executives were doing

3:16:18 > 3:16:21in making such a complete crass mishandling of this.

3:16:21 > 3:16:25But that isn't the central problem and I agree with the other speakers,

3:16:25 > 3:16:28the real issue here is not the programme

3:16:28 > 3:16:32that the BBC didn't put out and the editorially bad decision.

3:16:32 > 3:16:33The real appalling thing

3:16:33 > 3:16:37is how this man operated for three decades or longer,

3:16:37 > 3:16:39enormous cases of abuse.

3:16:39 > 3:16:43The real scandal, which I think really does need investigating

3:16:43 > 3:16:47is why was it that in 2009, when he was still alive,

3:16:47 > 3:16:53the Crown Prosecution Service had a lot of evidence in their hands,

3:16:53 > 3:16:56they had the evidence of people like that very brave woman, Karen Davies,

3:16:56 > 3:17:01the cancer sufferer who explained brutally what had happened,

3:17:01 > 3:17:06and yet, they didn't prosecute and that really does need pursuing.

3:17:06 > 3:17:08I agree with the panel on the broader question

3:17:08 > 3:17:12that it isn't about who said what to whom in the BBC

3:17:12 > 3:17:15the real crime here is that paedophilia,

3:17:15 > 3:17:17on an epic scale, was tolerated.

3:17:17 > 3:17:20People turned the other way, prosecutions were not pursued

3:17:20 > 3:17:22and that's the really deep scandal.

3:17:23 > 3:17:27The person up there on the top right-hand side, yes.

3:17:27 > 3:17:31Thank you. Just widening this slightly

3:17:31 > 3:17:34to the broader issue of BBC governance,

3:17:34 > 3:17:40I think I heard Chris Patten give a talk a day or two ago

3:17:40 > 3:17:45where he was very apologetic and supportive of BBC management.

3:17:45 > 3:17:47I thought the role of the BBC Trust

3:17:47 > 3:17:52was to act as the guardian of the licence payer

3:17:52 > 3:17:53and I don't see that

3:17:53 > 3:17:57they are maintaining a sufficiently independent position on this.

3:17:57 > 3:18:00They seem to be acting purely as cheerleaders for BBC...

3:18:00 > 3:18:03The management line,

3:18:03 > 3:18:07as opposed to the viewer and licence fee payer.

3:18:07 > 3:18:08Emily Thornberry.

3:18:08 > 3:18:11There's a couple of things I want to say about this.

3:18:11 > 3:18:14I don't know how many people here watched the Panorama programme,

3:18:14 > 3:18:17but it was really harrowing to watch.

3:18:17 > 3:18:22I thought watching Karin Ward give the evidence that she did

3:18:22 > 3:18:25and also the little boy who had been a Cub Scout,

3:18:25 > 3:18:27who'd been on Jim'll Fix It

3:18:27 > 3:18:30and him being picked out by Savile and having a ribbon put round him

3:18:30 > 3:18:33and then taken back to a dressing room and being abused

3:18:33 > 3:18:35was something I won't ever forget.

3:18:35 > 3:18:39I also thought that what was really shocking

3:18:39 > 3:18:41and more shocking than anything that has been happening recently,

3:18:41 > 3:18:45was when he was going around on Nationwide and he had a bus,

3:18:45 > 3:18:48and he was using the bus to take kids into the back and abuse,

3:18:48 > 3:18:51rumours were going round saying something was going on

3:18:51 > 3:18:54and it was taken up to higher management, and, somehow or other,

3:18:54 > 3:18:56higher management only spoke to other people on the floor,

3:18:56 > 3:18:59they didn't speak to the people on the floor below

3:18:59 > 3:19:01like the people who had been around

3:19:01 > 3:19:04and who actually might be able to tell them one way or the other,

3:19:04 > 3:19:06and turned a blind eye, and so it continued.

3:19:06 > 3:19:09It continued for decades, and I agree, you know what?

3:19:09 > 3:19:11- I agree with you, Claire.- Thanks.

3:19:11 > 3:19:13This may be the only time I ever will!

3:19:13 > 3:19:15But I agree with you that, actually,

3:19:15 > 3:19:17we should be focusing first and foremost on the victims.

3:19:17 > 3:19:20I'm really disappointed in the Crown Prosecution Service

3:19:20 > 3:19:22for letting down these victims.

3:19:22 > 3:19:24You know, when evidence comes forward,

3:19:24 > 3:19:27I'm really shocked that they did not go ahead with prosecuting,

3:19:27 > 3:19:31and it's for that reason that I wrote, in my capacity as Shadow AG,

3:19:31 > 3:19:34to Her Majesty's Inspector of the Crown Prosecution Service

3:19:34 > 3:19:37the day after the stuff came out and asked for an independent inspection.

3:19:37 > 3:19:39That is being investigated now?

3:19:39 > 3:19:41It's being investigated by the CPS.

3:19:41 > 3:19:44It's a little bit like the BBC doing an investigation of itself

3:19:44 > 3:19:46or the health service doing an investigation of itself,

3:19:46 > 3:19:48or Broadmoor doing an investigation of itself.

3:19:48 > 3:19:51I think that Harriet Harman is right,

3:19:51 > 3:19:53we need to have a larger investigation

3:19:53 > 3:19:57and we need to look at the sexualisation of 15-year-olds,

3:19:57 > 3:20:00the way in which girls are not taken seriously.

3:20:00 > 3:20:01The way in which we treat them

3:20:01 > 3:20:05and, frankly, it is not something that simply happened in the '70s

3:20:05 > 3:20:09and has not happened since, we just need to see it from Rochdale.

3:20:09 > 3:20:12We need to see Rochdale and see that when we get vulnerable victims,

3:20:12 > 3:20:15they need to be treated with particular care

3:20:15 > 3:20:17and with some responsibility.

3:20:17 > 3:20:20To see these people come forward and say,

3:20:20 > 3:20:22"I feel so guilty about what happened.

3:20:22 > 3:20:23"I feel as though it was my fault.

3:20:23 > 3:20:24"If only I'd complained,

3:20:24 > 3:20:27"many other generations would not have been abused."

3:20:27 > 3:20:30- That's appalling to hear that. - The man with a beard in the middle.

3:20:30 > 3:20:33Where are we going to find the Hercules

3:20:33 > 3:20:36to clean out this Augean mess that we have in the public sector?

3:20:36 > 3:20:38We've got the BBC investigating itself

3:20:38 > 3:20:40over covering up of paedophilia.

3:20:40 > 3:20:43We've got MPs with their snouts in the trough again!

3:20:43 > 3:20:45We've got all sorts.

3:20:45 > 3:20:47We've got coppers and the Hillsborough thing's come out again.

3:20:47 > 3:20:49We can't get away from it

3:20:49 > 3:20:52until we find some way of actually really going in

3:20:52 > 3:20:54and shaking everything down, root and branch,

3:20:54 > 3:20:56and kicking this wickedness out.

3:21:02 > 3:21:05I think the BBC's investigations are independent.

3:21:05 > 3:21:07They've appointed outsiders to do it.

3:21:07 > 3:21:10It's a firm of lawyers who are used for handling the firestorms

3:21:10 > 3:21:13that you normally get when things like this happen.

3:21:13 > 3:21:16They are hardly independent cos I was reading today,

3:21:16 > 3:21:20one of the biggest clients of these lawyers who are doing it is the BBC!

3:21:21 > 3:21:23Can I just say...? I mean,

3:21:23 > 3:21:26it's not just the BBC who've got to answer questions here,

3:21:26 > 3:21:29it's the CPS, it's the national press, actually.

3:21:29 > 3:21:31Because there was...

3:21:31 > 3:21:33The rumours were well known.

3:21:33 > 3:21:36We know the national press looked at it in 1992 - a certain newspaper,

3:21:36 > 3:21:38and it was dropped for legal reasons.

3:21:38 > 3:21:40Five police forces were investigating Savile

3:21:40 > 3:21:43and I think the NHS has questions to answer

3:21:43 > 3:21:45for giving him the right to roam round Leeds.

3:21:45 > 3:21:48They gave him a bedroom in Stoke Mandeville Hospital.

3:21:48 > 3:21:51And an office in Broadmoor, which is outrageous.

3:21:51 > 3:21:54All of these organisations have got questions to answer,

3:21:54 > 3:21:55it's not just the BBC.

3:21:55 > 3:21:57We'll go on.

3:21:57 > 3:22:00I'll take a question from Taj.

3:22:00 > 3:22:03But just before I do, the chairman of the Conservative Party

3:22:03 > 3:22:07complained that, when he was on Question Time two weeks ago,

3:22:07 > 3:22:10he was give an brief by the BBC

3:22:10 > 3:22:13about what he should say about the BBC.

3:22:13 > 3:22:15I've had no briefings, I want to reassure you.

3:22:15 > 3:22:17Good. I'm glad to hear it.

3:22:17 > 3:22:19- I wouldn't listen anyway.- Good.

3:22:19 > 3:22:21SCATTERED LAUGHTER

3:22:21 > 3:22:23Taj, please.

3:22:23 > 3:22:26Should David Cameron give the European Court the two-finger salute

3:22:26 > 3:22:29by not granting prisoners the right to vote?

3:22:29 > 3:22:32It's a curious position on this right to vote,

3:22:32 > 3:22:35because the Prime Minister says "over his dead body"

3:22:35 > 3:22:38will prisoner get the right to vote and, at the same time,

3:22:38 > 3:22:40his own Attorney General is saying...

3:22:40 > 3:22:42Advising a committee that, actually...

3:22:42 > 3:22:43Let's just quote the words,

3:22:43 > 3:22:46"It could be thrown out by the Council of Europe,

3:22:46 > 3:22:48"compensation claims will be made

3:22:48 > 3:22:51"and Britain will be seen by other countries

3:22:51 > 3:22:55"as moving away from our strict adherence to human rights laws."

3:22:55 > 3:22:58So, it looks as though Prime Minister and Attorney General

3:22:58 > 3:23:01are rather at loggerheads, Vince Cable. What's your view?

3:23:01 > 3:23:03- I don't think so.- Oh! Really?

3:23:03 > 3:23:06He doesn't need to give the European Court the two-finger salute,

3:23:06 > 3:23:08because the European Court are not arguing

3:23:08 > 3:23:11that prisoners should be given the vote.

3:23:11 > 3:23:12They're saying that not all prisoners

3:23:12 > 3:23:14should be excluded from having the vote,

3:23:14 > 3:23:17which is a very, very different proposition.

3:23:17 > 3:23:19I mean, I totally agree with the Prime Minister

3:23:19 > 3:23:21that when people are put in prison, they lose their liberties

3:23:21 > 3:23:24and one key liberty is the right to vote. He's absolutely right,

3:23:24 > 3:23:26and that's the way Parliament has voted.

3:23:26 > 3:23:29What the European Court has said

3:23:29 > 3:23:33is that not everybody should, as a matter of principle, be stopped.

3:23:33 > 3:23:35At the moment, there are people, for example, who are in prison

3:23:35 > 3:23:38for not paying fines who are allowed to vote.

3:23:38 > 3:23:40I would have thought there are other cases too.

3:23:40 > 3:23:44I mean, I was recently had an open prison in Lancashire

3:23:44 > 3:23:47and before people are released, who are threat to the public,

3:23:47 > 3:23:48they're allowed home at weekends.

3:23:48 > 3:23:53I mean, you've got some people who are half-in, half-out of prison.

3:23:53 > 3:23:56It scarcely requires enormous imagination

3:23:56 > 3:23:59to see how the principle which the European Court laid down

3:23:59 > 3:24:01could be honoured in the law.

3:24:01 > 3:24:04- "It makes me physically..." - So, the two positions are not in contradiction.

3:24:04 > 3:24:06David Cameron - "It makes me physically ill

3:24:06 > 3:24:09"to even contemplate having to give the vote

3:24:09 > 3:24:11"to ANYONE who is in prison."

3:24:11 > 3:24:14Well, people in prison at the moment can vote if,

3:24:14 > 3:24:17I think in some specific cases, if there is a fine default.

3:24:17 > 3:24:19- So he's wrong?- As a matter of fact.

3:24:19 > 3:24:23No, I share his indignation at the idea that extreme cases,

3:24:23 > 3:24:26whether murderers or rapists or whatever,

3:24:26 > 3:24:28shouldn't be treated the same as everybody else.

3:24:28 > 3:24:31- No-one is proposing that.- But nobody is actually proposing that.

3:24:31 > 3:24:33What the European Court has ruled

3:24:33 > 3:24:36is that there shouldn't be a blanket ban

3:24:36 > 3:24:39and that seems to be sensible and right and balanced

3:24:39 > 3:24:43and something that could be entirely reconciled with his position,

3:24:43 > 3:24:46which is mine, and the views of Parliament.

3:24:46 > 3:24:50Emily Thornberry? You're the Shadow Attorney General.

3:24:50 > 3:24:54There was a big vote against prisoners getting the right to vote.

3:24:54 > 3:24:57Last year, I think it was.

3:24:57 > 3:25:01Do you think Cameron is right and should say, "No, absolutely not"?

3:25:01 > 3:25:04or is Dominic Grieve's argument right, that...?

3:25:05 > 3:25:07I think I would start with...

3:25:07 > 3:25:10It's Labour's position that we are against the idea

3:25:10 > 3:25:13of convicted prisoners having the right to vote.

3:25:13 > 3:25:16It's Parliament's view, and frankly, it's the public's view as well.

3:25:16 > 3:25:19Now, in my role as Shadow Attorney General,

3:25:19 > 3:25:21I obviously also have to give legal advice

3:25:21 > 3:25:25and so my legal advice would be that the European Court is saying

3:25:25 > 3:25:27that it is wrong for us to have a blanket ban,

3:25:27 > 3:25:30that we would be in breach of our international obligations

3:25:30 > 3:25:33if we didn't do something about this and therefore, indeed,

3:25:33 > 3:25:36ministers would be in breach of the Ministerial Code.

3:25:36 > 3:25:39I mean, you have to, as Attorney General, tell the Prime Minister

3:25:39 > 3:25:43or the Leader of the Opposition these truths.

3:25:43 > 3:25:45Because these are truths

3:25:45 > 3:25:49and we need, as lawyers, to be able to give them that advice.

3:25:49 > 3:25:53I mean, there is developing a doctrine,

3:25:53 > 3:25:55which is called the margin of appreciation,

3:25:55 > 3:25:58which is basically saying, we all sign up to the European Convention,

3:25:58 > 3:26:00we all say that there are certain basic standards

3:26:00 > 3:26:04that they must comply with but Europe is beginning to understand

3:26:04 > 3:26:07that countries do have different cultures, different backgrounds,

3:26:07 > 3:26:09different politics and, over the years,

3:26:09 > 3:26:11there have been a number of decisions

3:26:11 > 3:26:13in relation to prisoner voting

3:26:13 > 3:26:15and they are beginning to, more and more, understand

3:26:15 > 3:26:18that there is a margin of appreciation.

3:26:18 > 3:26:19I mean, I just don't think the European Court

3:26:19 > 3:26:22are going to go to the wall on this for Britain.

3:26:22 > 3:26:25- Ah! So you'd defy them?- If you compare...- Is that what you mean?

3:26:25 > 3:26:28You're doing lawyer's talk, or Shadow Attorney General's talk.

3:26:28 > 3:26:30You asked me as Shadow Attorney General,

3:26:30 > 3:26:33and I'm telling you the advice I would give to Ed Miliband.

3:26:33 > 3:26:36If he said, "It sticks in my craw to give a vote to a prisoner,"

3:26:36 > 3:26:39- you'd say... - I'd say, well, for 13 years,

3:26:39 > 3:26:41we did not give votes to prisoners

3:26:41 > 3:26:43and, as a politician, as well as a lawyer,

3:26:43 > 3:26:45- my politician's advice would be different.- OK.

3:26:45 > 3:26:48So, there's lawyer's advice and politician's advice.

3:26:48 > 3:26:50As Shadow Attorney General, you straddle both horses,

3:26:50 > 3:26:53that's why I've said my lawyer's advice is one thing,

3:26:53 > 3:26:54political is another.

3:26:54 > 3:26:57- As we discovered during the run-up to the Iraq war.- No. Now, now...

3:26:57 > 3:27:02APPLAUSE

3:27:03 > 3:27:06Well, I agree with the Prime Minister on this.

3:27:06 > 3:27:07It makes me sick to my stomach,

3:27:07 > 3:27:09the idea that prisoners should have the vote.

3:27:09 > 3:27:11But what makes me more sick

3:27:11 > 3:27:14is the fact that our own sovereign Parliament,

3:27:14 > 3:27:18our own elected representatives, have voted to say no

3:27:18 > 3:27:20to votes for prisoners and, actually,

3:27:20 > 3:27:23we're being told we have to do it by a court

3:27:23 > 3:27:26which actually isn't even in this country, by judges who are faceless.

3:27:26 > 3:27:27It's absolutely wrong.

3:27:27 > 3:27:31APPLAUSE

3:27:31 > 3:27:32Claire Perry?

3:27:32 > 3:27:34- Sorry.- Can I just make another point on this?

3:27:34 > 3:27:37Look, criminals have broken their contract with society.

3:27:37 > 3:27:39Society should break its contract with them.

3:27:39 > 3:27:41Now, here's the interesting point on this.

3:27:41 > 3:27:44At no point in the European Convention of Human Rights

3:27:44 > 3:27:46does it mention votes.

3:27:46 > 3:27:50In fact, it was the Atlee Government that made sure it wasn't mentioned.

3:27:50 > 3:27:52We're in a situation now in this country,

3:27:52 > 3:27:55where the only people who can't vote are peers...

3:27:56 > 3:27:58..felons and lunatics.

3:27:58 > 3:28:01Now, I can see all sorts of legal wrangles coming,

3:28:01 > 3:28:03cos where are we going to go?

3:28:03 > 3:28:06The logical conclusion is we give prisoners the vote,

3:28:06 > 3:28:08we give lunatics the vote.

3:28:08 > 3:28:11Some could say that the lunatics run the country, but there we are.

3:28:11 > 3:28:12All right.

3:28:12 > 3:28:15Here's a big point. What are we going to do, David?

3:28:15 > 3:28:19Are we going to defy the fines or are we going to leave the ECHR?

3:28:19 > 3:28:21Because we can't! I'll tell you why.

3:28:21 > 3:28:24Because to be a member of the European Union,

3:28:24 > 3:28:26you have to be in the European Court of Human Rights.

3:28:26 > 3:28:28At it's things like votes for prisoners

3:28:28 > 3:28:31which actually make people more sceptical about Europe

3:28:31 > 3:28:34and it's one of the reasons why more people want a referendum

3:28:34 > 3:28:36on our membership of the EU.

3:28:36 > 3:28:38APPLAUSE

3:28:38 > 3:28:39It's not, of course...

3:28:39 > 3:28:41Well, you can argue about how concomitant it is

3:28:41 > 3:28:42with membership of the Union.

3:28:42 > 3:28:45Taj, you asked the question, what do you make of the answers?

3:28:45 > 3:28:48Vince Cable said that it's not all prisoners

3:28:48 > 3:28:51are going to be banned from voting.

3:28:51 > 3:28:54But, you go to prison for having committed serious crimes

3:28:54 > 3:28:57against society, so you forfeit your right to have a say

3:28:57 > 3:28:59in who should be running our country.

3:28:59 > 3:29:01I just want to say,

3:29:01 > 3:29:03the European Convention on Human Rights itself

3:29:03 > 3:29:08is a very good piece of law, but for far too long, for far too many years,

3:29:08 > 3:29:12some decisions have been devoid of common sense

3:29:12 > 3:29:14- and the human responsibilities. - Mehdi Hasan.

3:29:14 > 3:29:18I don't agree. I don't think people go to prison for serious offences,

3:29:18 > 3:29:20I think there's a bigger question here.

3:29:20 > 3:29:22We lock up far too many people for all sorts of minor offences,

3:29:22 > 3:29:25for all sorts of non-violent and trivial offences...

3:29:25 > 3:29:27We have one of the highest per capita prison populations

3:29:27 > 3:29:29in Western Europe, so I don't even buy the argument.

3:29:29 > 3:29:31Not everyone in prison is a crazy psychopath

3:29:31 > 3:29:34and no-one is suggesting giving the crazy psychopath votes.

3:29:34 > 3:29:37So, Vince is right there, this is about blanket bans.

3:29:37 > 3:29:40And your question was about giving a two-fingered salute to the ECHR.

3:29:40 > 3:29:43I mean, if Vladimir Putin is watching Question Time

3:29:43 > 3:29:46on iPlayer Catch-up and he heard your question, he'd be delighted.

3:29:46 > 3:29:49If the President of Belarus was watching, he'd be delighted too.

3:29:49 > 3:29:50We can't go around saying,

3:29:50 > 3:29:53"We want to give two fingers to international human rights law,"

3:29:53 > 3:29:54and lecture the rest of the world

3:29:54 > 3:29:56that they must follow the same human rights law.

3:29:56 > 3:29:59That's deeply hypocritical. And as for Paul's point

3:29:59 > 3:30:02about how unpopular it is and sovereign judges,

3:30:02 > 3:30:05just a couple of weeks ago, Theresa May was keeping Gary McKinnon

3:30:05 > 3:30:07in this country, a hugely popular move,

3:30:07 > 3:30:09on the basis of human rights legislation,

3:30:09 > 3:30:11on the basis of the ECHR.

3:30:11 > 3:30:14So, suddenly it's wonderful, and suddenly it's the enemy.

3:30:14 > 3:30:15APPLAUSE

3:30:15 > 3:30:17OK, I'm going to stop you.

3:30:17 > 3:30:20Is there somebody with their arm up there? No.

3:30:20 > 3:30:22All right, you, Sir. And then I will come to you, Claire.

3:30:22 > 3:30:24I'd just like to call Paul up on...

3:30:24 > 3:30:26Did you call people

3:30:26 > 3:30:29who are sectioned under the Mental Health Act "lunatics"?

3:30:29 > 3:30:31Because that's quite offensive.

3:30:31 > 3:30:33Hate to be... Hate to...

3:30:33 > 3:30:36It does stipulate quite clearly that the people who can't vote

3:30:36 > 3:30:40- in this country are peers, felons and lunatics.- All right.

3:30:40 > 3:30:41Claire Perry.

3:30:41 > 3:30:45Um, the European Court of Human Rights was set up by Britain

3:30:45 > 3:30:49as a way of preventing genocide ever happening again in Europe.

3:30:49 > 3:30:50It was a fine and noble aim

3:30:50 > 3:30:53and it has strayed so far from that remit, in my view.

3:30:53 > 3:30:56I had the pleasure of being part of the UK delegation

3:30:56 > 3:30:58to the European Council.

3:30:58 > 3:31:01You think our money is being wasted there with people talking nonsense.

3:31:01 > 3:31:03You're right, that's what's happening.

3:31:03 > 3:31:05On this issue, I have to say,

3:31:05 > 3:31:07I am slightly in the wishy-washy camp of thinking

3:31:07 > 3:31:10prisoners who are being rehabilitated

3:31:10 > 3:31:12perhaps could earn this right.

3:31:12 > 3:31:15It's part of becoming a responsible citizen again.

3:31:15 > 3:31:18But what I want is that decision to be a sovereign decision here.

3:31:18 > 3:31:21It is a decision for British politicians and British courts.

3:31:21 > 3:31:23And frankly, Mehdi, you talk about Russia and Belarus,

3:31:23 > 3:31:26the scale of human rights abuses going on

3:31:26 > 3:31:28amongst other countries in Europe pales...

3:31:28 > 3:31:30My point was you can't pick and choose

3:31:30 > 3:31:32which bits you want to put two fingers up to.

3:31:32 > 3:31:36I think that given that the court has a multi-year backlog of cases,

3:31:36 > 3:31:39we would be reasonable in doing what the Prime Minister says,

3:31:39 > 3:31:42which is, it is a decision for us. Come on, sue us, bring it on.

3:31:42 > 3:31:46All right, thank you very much. We've got only a few minutes left,

3:31:46 > 3:31:49but we've got UKIP here, we've got the Liberal Democrats,

3:31:49 > 3:31:52we got the Tories here, we've got political commentator, Mehdi Hasan

3:31:52 > 3:31:54and we've got the Shadow Attorney General.

3:31:54 > 3:31:56We've got a question from Aidan Watson.

3:31:56 > 3:31:58And we only have a few minutes to answer it.

3:31:58 > 3:31:59In recent polls,

3:31:59 > 3:32:02the Liberal Democrats have come out as fourth behind UKIP.

3:32:02 > 3:32:03Should they leave the coalition

3:32:03 > 3:32:05before they lose whatever support they still have?

3:32:05 > 3:32:07Yes. Vince Cable.

3:32:07 > 3:32:10No, we're not going to leave the coalition.

3:32:10 > 3:32:13We've taken on a very challenging, very difficult task.

3:32:13 > 3:32:16The country faced a major emergency two and a half years ago,

3:32:16 > 3:32:18a serious economic crisis.

3:32:18 > 3:32:21We felt we should contribute to that and provide stable government

3:32:21 > 3:32:22over five years.

3:32:22 > 3:32:25There are many things we disagree with the Conservatives about

3:32:25 > 3:32:27and we'll continue to argue with them,

3:32:27 > 3:32:29but the core purpose of the coalition remains intact.

3:32:29 > 3:32:31What about slipping behind UKIP?

3:32:31 > 3:32:34Yes, well, we'll see whether the UKIP party win 50-plus seats

3:32:34 > 3:32:36at the next general election.

3:32:36 > 3:32:39I suspect they won't. But let's argue that when we come to it.

3:32:39 > 3:32:42We think we have a good record and we will defend it,

3:32:42 > 3:32:44and I think the public will understand

3:32:44 > 3:32:46that we did something difficult, but right,

3:32:46 > 3:32:49and that will be recognised when we come to the next election.

3:32:49 > 3:32:51OK. Paul Nuttall.

3:32:51 > 3:32:53Might be the Tories that ought to leave the coalition

3:32:53 > 3:32:56if they see you making headway, shouldn't they?

3:32:56 > 3:32:59Well, we'll talk about that down the line.

3:32:59 > 3:33:01I mean, UKIP is the fastest growing political party in Britain.

3:33:01 > 3:33:07We're polling now around 10% to 12% quite regularly in opinion polls.

3:33:07 > 3:33:10We're expected to do well in the Corby by-election.

3:33:10 > 3:33:12In fact, we're fielding more candidates

3:33:12 > 3:33:16in the police commissioner elections than the Liberal Democrats.

3:33:16 > 3:33:19That sort of tells us where we are at the moment,

3:33:19 > 3:33:21and we're projected to go on and win the 2014 General Election...

3:33:21 > 3:33:24Sorry, European election. Well...! LAUGHTER

3:33:24 > 3:33:28Let's see where we are in 2015. It could be very interesting indeed.

3:33:28 > 3:33:31Mehdi Hasan, is it time for the coalition to break up?

3:33:31 > 3:33:33- Purely in self-interested political terms?- Yeah...

3:33:33 > 3:33:35Do you think Vince is right to stick with it?

3:33:35 > 3:33:38Vince points out that UKIP won't win 50 seats at the next election.

3:33:38 > 3:33:41The problem is, Vince's party won't win 50 seats at the next election,

3:33:41 > 3:33:43that's the problem.

3:33:43 > 3:33:46Come the autumn of 2014, as Lib Dem MPs in marginal seats

3:33:46 > 3:33:48are staring into the abyss, the cry will go up,

3:33:48 > 3:33:50"Call for Vince, call for Vince,"

3:33:50 > 3:33:52and I think there'll be a great moment there

3:33:52 > 3:33:55to see if they have the backbone to get rid of an unpopular leader,

3:33:55 > 3:33:58try and get in another leader who used to be quite popular

3:33:58 > 3:34:01and then, get a bit of a bounce, a bit of a honeymoon period.

3:34:01 > 3:34:04If they time it right, they might be able to save themselves.

3:34:04 > 3:34:07Otherwise, I suspect, they're heading for meltdown.

3:34:07 > 3:34:10- Claire Perry.- Well, the economy, back to Eamonn's first question,

3:34:10 > 3:34:14- the economy is healing, we are dealing with the deficit.- 0% growth.

3:34:14 > 3:34:16We came together because we were facing

3:34:16 > 3:34:20the biggest peacetime economic crisis this country has ever seen,

3:34:20 > 3:34:21thanks to the totally irresponsible...

3:34:21 > 3:34:23- Yeah, we get the speech. - You made it worse.

3:34:23 > 3:34:25Are you alarmed by the rise of UKIP?

3:34:25 > 3:34:27Look. Paul, forgive me,

3:34:27 > 3:34:30what is your policy for cutting the deficit?

3:34:30 > 3:34:33- You don't have one. - Hang on. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

3:34:33 > 3:34:35- LAUGHTER - Don't ask him!

3:34:35 > 3:34:38Claire, just make a political point,

3:34:38 > 3:34:41what is your view of the rise of UKIP and the effect it will have?

3:34:41 > 3:34:43I think UKIP is a natural...

3:34:43 > 3:34:47It is a tough, slow recovery,

3:34:47 > 3:34:49and UKIP is unnatural protest place for many people to go,

3:34:49 > 3:34:53who could never bring themselves to vote ever again for Labour,

3:34:53 > 3:34:55given the wreckage that was wrought on the country.

3:34:55 > 3:34:57It is a natural protest.

3:34:57 > 3:34:59Vince, I know I'll be fighting against Liberal candidates,

3:34:59 > 3:35:02we will wish each other well, but the coalition will last until 2015.

3:35:02 > 3:35:05And you have no time for UKIP?

3:35:05 > 3:35:06Well, I... UKIP...

3:35:06 > 3:35:09UKIP have a lot of time for the Tories.

3:35:09 > 3:35:11- They keep wanting to flirt with you and...- Really?!

3:35:11 > 3:35:14David Cameron called them "loonies, closet racists".

3:35:14 > 3:35:16I think the issue...

3:35:16 > 3:35:19I think the issues around Europe really concern

3:35:19 > 3:35:22far more people than, certainly, the Labour Party realises.

3:35:22 > 3:35:25I am not concerned about the rise of UKIP.

3:35:25 > 3:35:29Emily Thornberry, you're out of all this, of course, cos you're...

3:35:29 > 3:35:31- How long have I got? - You've got about 45 seconds.

3:35:31 > 3:35:34OK, in 45 seconds, I'd say, of course they've got to leave the coalition.

3:35:34 > 3:35:36They will not be forgiven unless they do.

3:35:36 > 3:35:39They've been propping up this Tory government for too long.

3:35:39 > 3:35:42Without them, we'd not have had changes to the health service.

3:35:42 > 3:35:44Without them, we'd not have had changes to tuition fees

3:35:44 > 3:35:46or having these terrible cuts.

3:35:46 > 3:35:49APPLAUSE People will never forgive them.

3:35:49 > 3:35:52And it's about time they pulled out. People want another government.

3:35:52 > 3:35:53We'd like to have an election.

3:35:53 > 3:35:55Let's get ourselves a proper government

3:35:55 > 3:35:58that will deal with this deficit and debt in a responsible way.

3:35:58 > 3:36:01- In a responsible way and get us out of the recession.- Incredible.

3:36:01 > 3:36:03- That's what people want.- How?

3:36:03 > 3:36:06Thank you, not least for finishing in 45 seconds. You can come back.

3:36:06 > 3:36:09Our time is up. Next week we're going to be in Central London,

3:36:09 > 3:36:11as America gets ready to elect a new president.

3:36:11 > 3:36:14We've got Jerry Springer, the controversial television presenter.

3:36:14 > 3:36:17He used to be mayor of Cincinnati for the Democrats.

3:36:17 > 3:36:20We've got the former Foreign Secretary, David Miliband,

3:36:20 > 3:36:21Ed's brother,

3:36:21 > 3:36:23and we have a prominent, but as yet unnamed,

3:36:23 > 3:36:27Mitt Romney supporter there with us, to see balance.

3:36:27 > 3:36:28So, that's next week.

3:36:28 > 3:36:31The week after that, we're going to be in Bexhill, in Sussex.

3:36:31 > 3:36:34If you'd like to come to either Central London, or to Bexhill,

3:36:34 > 3:36:37just visit our website, the address is on the screen there.

3:36:37 > 3:36:39Or call us...

3:36:42 > 3:36:44Thanks you for watching. Thanks to our panel.

3:36:44 > 3:36:46Thanks to all who came to Slough to take part.

3:36:46 > 3:36:49Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.

3:37:11 > 3:37:14Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd