:00:18. > :00:21.Good evening. Tonight, Question Time comes from London.
:00:21. > :00:25.A big welcome to our audience here and our panel. The Foreign
:00:25. > :00:28.Secretary in the last Labour Government, David Miliband. The
:00:28. > :00:34.Conservative MP, Kwasi Kwarteng, newly elected to the House of
:00:34. > :00:37.Commons in 2010. The Director of The Human rites pressure group,
:00:37. > :00:42.Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti. The former chairman of Republicans
:00:42. > :00:46.abroad, Colleen Graffy, who worked for Condoleezza Rice in the State
:00:46. > :00:51.Department. And a Democrat politician who was Mayor of
:00:51. > :01:01.Cincinnati and Ohio, then became host of his own controversial
:01:01. > :01:05.television show, Jerry Springer. APPLAUSE
:01:05. > :01:12.Thank you very much. The American elections are coming up and our
:01:12. > :01:15.first question is from Mark Weaver. Hello. As a US citizen, I voted for
:01:15. > :01:19.Barack Obama in 2008, optimistic about his mandate for hope and
:01:19. > :01:23.change. The reality has been very different. Does he deserve another
:01:23. > :01:30.four years? Well, of course, the race is getting closer and closer.
:01:30. > :01:36.Does Obama deserve another four years? Jerry Springer? Yes.
:01:36. > :01:44.APPLAUSE I like a man who gives a short
:01:44. > :01:49.answer. I would suggest that the reality is that what he has done, I
:01:50. > :01:56.think, is an excellent job. When he came into office, the financial
:01:56. > :02:02.system in America was cray tering. People were losing half of their
:02:02. > :02:08.life savings -- cratering. He came in, saved the financial community,
:02:08. > :02:16.made it stable, people's life savings have now been in a large
:02:16. > :02:24.part restored. Secondly, he saved the auto-industry. Thirdly, he when
:02:24. > :02:32.he came in, he had several months in a row of losing 730,000 jobs
:02:32. > :02:38.every month. Now, we've had 15 straight months of growth between
:02:38. > :02:42.100,000 and 300,000 jobs per month. So why is he having such an uphill
:02:42. > :02:48.struggle? Well, I think it's because the nation is deeply
:02:48. > :02:51.divided. He said he'd get us out of Iraq. He got us out of Iraq. He's
:02:51. > :02:54.getting us out of Afghanistan. He got us Osama Bin Laden. For the
:02:54. > :02:59.first time in American history, we have health insurance that you all
:02:59. > :03:04.enjoy here in Great Britain. I mean, you put that together, what else do
:03:04. > :03:07.you want from this man? He's got us out of wars, turned the economy
:03:07. > :03:10.around, the housing market is improving, the employment figures
:03:10. > :03:17.are improving, the private sector is improving. So why is it so
:03:17. > :03:22.difficult for him to... Because much of the country, half of the
:03:22. > :03:25.country is... Not persuaded by what you say? Is Conservative. There are
:03:25. > :03:31.many people that don't believe all Americans should have health
:03:31. > :03:35.insurance. I'm not suggesting that my opinion is necessarily popular,
:03:35. > :03:40.but the question was, from someone who supported Obama, why he should
:03:40. > :03:44.be disappointed today and I'm saying, don't be. You've lost the
:03:44. > :03:49.tingle that you had the first time you voted for him, but that's not
:03:49. > :03:54.unlike a marriage. When you first get married, you just love the way
:03:54. > :03:59.she looks and smiles and it's all the heart strings and the banjos,
:03:59. > :04:04.but after years and years of a marriage, there's a deeper love but
:04:04. > :04:09.it isn't like every time she walks into the room, you gasp because oh
:04:09. > :04:14.my God, she's gorgeous, you love her because it's deep and there's a
:04:14. > :04:17.performance there. Does this have resonance for you? No, I think he
:04:17. > :04:21.lurched way far to the left, he wanted to build a bigger Government,
:04:21. > :04:24.spend tonnes of money and I don't think frankly building bridges and
:04:24. > :04:31.roads is the way out of this economic crisis and I think he's
:04:31. > :04:37.taken the wrong path. Do you think it's OK that not all Americans have
:04:37. > :04:42.health insurance? But again that was incorrectly implement and my
:04:43. > :04:46.health care premiums have quadrupled in the last two or three
:04:46. > :04:52.years since this came out. Instead of paying excess on my insurance
:04:52. > :04:58.any more, I now have to co-insure myself so Obama care's failed. The
:04:58. > :05:03.intent was good. It's not even started until 2014, how could it
:05:03. > :05:08.have failed? We are already seeing the effects of that legislation.
:05:08. > :05:12.You two just go aside for a second. Colleen Graffy? Let me first start
:05:12. > :05:16.by saying that even though obviously I worked with the
:05:16. > :05:19.previous administration, I was in Washington DC at the time of
:05:19. > :05:25.Obama's inauguration and I thought it was fabulous for America, I
:05:25. > :05:28.really did. I got up at 4am and I stood in line for five hours, my
:05:28. > :05:32.feet are still defrosting it was so cold, but it was really magnificent
:05:32. > :05:35.for the United States that we had elected our first African-American
:05:35. > :05:40.President and nothing takes away from that. He's still likeable,
:05:40. > :05:44.everyone loves him, but the fact is, he's been a disappointment. Not for
:05:44. > :05:49.Republicans - we would say that wouldn't we - but for independence
:05:49. > :05:53.and Democrats alike. It's not just that he promised to cut the deficit
:05:53. > :05:56.in half and it's doubled. It's not just that we have 23 million
:05:56. > :05:59.Americans out of work and struggling for work. It's some of
:05:59. > :06:05.the things that took place at the beginning of his term. What strikes
:06:05. > :06:09.many of us is, he didn't meet the Dalai Lama. The first President of
:06:09. > :06:13.the United States not to meet the Dalai Lama when he came to
:06:13. > :06:18.Washington DC. He had his reasons, he hadn't gone to China yet, he
:06:18. > :06:23.didn't want to cause any problems there, but as a candidate, he had
:06:23. > :06:28.told President Bush that he should boycott the Beijing Olympic Games
:06:28. > :06:33.because he should have solidarity with Tibet and Darfur. Yet, as
:06:33. > :06:38.President Obama, he doesn't want to meet with the thrarm. The reset
:06:38. > :06:42.button with Russia not supporting the green revolution in Iran, there
:06:42. > :06:47.is a whole host of things that have been disappointing -- he didn't
:06:47. > :06:50.want to meet with the Dalai Lama. That's why you see double digits
:06:51. > :06:56.turning to Romney. You see newspapers that endorsed Obama in
:06:56. > :07:00.2008 and they are now switching and endorsing Romney. So again, great
:07:00. > :07:03.moment for America but disappointment and whether that
:07:03. > :07:08.results in a Romney win or not, it's very close to tell.
:07:08. > :07:15.The woman on the right? I think regardless of who the democratic
:07:15. > :07:19.candidate was, I think it would be a real disappointment from a
:07:19. > :07:28.woman's perspective for Mitt Romney to be elected. Romney? Yes.
:07:28. > :07:34.APPLAUSE Briefly, why do you think that?
:07:34. > :07:39.His policies towards abortion... What are those policies? There
:07:39. > :07:45.was... You may well ask. They change every day.
:07:46. > :07:49.The fact is that abortion is not an issue. It's precedent in the United
:07:49. > :07:55.States under Wade and Casey, no-one seriously suggests the Supreme
:07:55. > :07:58.Court is going to overturn abortion. I know we bring this... No, it's
:07:58. > :08:03.Conservative... One vote away from the Supreme Court and the next
:08:03. > :08:07.President will choose. You are a lawyer, it's considered precedent.
:08:07. > :08:11.The abortion issue is a scare tactic. Women care about the fact
:08:11. > :08:14.that they are higher unemployment than men right now under this
:08:14. > :08:19.economy, they care about the fact they don't make a wage that's going
:08:19. > :08:21.to support them and their families and that's why women are now
:08:21. > :08:27.turning towards Romney because they think I'm going to have a better
:08:27. > :08:36.future under this President to have my career and my job. And the
:08:36. > :08:39.Republican platform is opposed to the Ledbetter Act You know the
:08:39. > :08:47.platform means nothing. It's not like the party manifesto here.
:08:47. > :08:51.it has to be said that... I'm sorry. It's true nevertheless that he does
:08:51. > :08:54.have difficulty getting the support of women. But that's changing as
:08:54. > :09:00.people are realising they are all scare tactics coming out. David
:09:00. > :09:05.Miliband? I think he's been a good President in remarkably difficult
:09:05. > :09:12.circumstances. APPLAUSE
:09:12. > :09:16.He's been calm, progressive, determined, rational, all the
:09:16. > :09:20.qualities that you see actually in the last four days actually in the
:09:20. > :09:24.context of the floods. Now, I think it's also very important to say, at
:09:24. > :09:30.the moment we have been talking about domestic policy really, I
:09:30. > :09:33.think he's the best choice on domestic policy. He rejects
:09:33. > :09:40.simplistic slogans on foreign policy as well which is very, very
:09:40. > :09:43.important. We have been through the era of the
:09:43. > :09:47."Axis of Evil" that North Korea, Iraq and Iran in the same context.
:09:47. > :09:51.That was a dreadful mistake by President Bush. Anyone who knows
:09:51. > :09:56.anything about the Middle East knows that Iraq and Iran are not
:09:56. > :10:00.friends in an "Axis of Evil". On foreign policy, there are three big
:10:00. > :10:05.issues facing the world - how you deal with China - not by declaring
:10:05. > :10:09.trade war on day one. Second huge issue, Iran. You will never get a
:10:09. > :10:14.diplomatic solution to the Iranian nuclear crisis by threatening to
:10:14. > :10:17.bomb them to kingdom come. What you do is actually engage with that
:10:17. > :10:23.country and make absolutely clear that if they get a nuclear weapon,
:10:23. > :10:27.then they are risking an attack. But until then you don't get Shia
:10:27. > :10:32.to compromise by threatening to bomb them to hell. Third, we still
:10:32. > :10:36.have 10,000 troops in Afghanistan. That's the forgotten war in both
:10:36. > :10:40.the American election and too often our own domestic politics. We need
:10:40. > :10:44.someone who understands that the only solution in Afghanistan is a
:10:44. > :10:49.political solution. That does mean talking to the Taliban and engaging
:10:49. > :10:53.with Pakistan. Those are essential qualities. One other thing which I
:10:53. > :10:57.think the important on the foreign front. Look, the biggest diplomatic
:10:57. > :10:59.failure for 40 years has been the failure to create a Palestinian
:10:59. > :11:06.state. APPLAUSE
:11:06. > :11:09.It's not that the failure to create a Palestinian state is fuelling Al-
:11:09. > :11:14.Qaeda. That's not the point. It's an injustice for the Palestinians
:11:14. > :11:17.and an insecurity for the Israelis. There's only one candidate who has
:11:17. > :11:21.the slightest intention of trying to prosecute that case. I think for
:11:21. > :11:27.those foreign policy reasons, as well as for the domestic policy
:11:27. > :11:30.reasons, he's a compellingly strong alternative to Mr Romney.
:11:30. > :11:33.APPLAUSE Just before we go back on that, I
:11:33. > :11:37.want to ask you one caveat. Have you noticed a change in what he
:11:37. > :11:43.said from when he was winning the nomination to now in the campaign
:11:43. > :11:49.and to the last debate in the things that he said? Romney? Yes.
:11:49. > :11:53.Yes, look, Romney will usually - admittedly when he came to London
:11:53. > :11:57.and said we were a bunch of useless people who couldn't organise the
:11:57. > :12:01.Olympics, he wasn't playing to type - but generally he'll say what the
:12:01. > :12:04.audience wants to hear. That's not what he said. In the Republican
:12:04. > :12:10.primaries, he ran on a tea party platform. My fear is that actually
:12:10. > :12:13.if he got into office, he's too in hhoc to the tea party to get away
:12:13. > :12:19.from them that.'s a danger to the American economy where the tea
:12:19. > :12:25.party is not being about a fiscal hawk, it's fiscal incontinence with
:12:25. > :12:31.tax cuts that can't be afforded. Internationally it's dangerous.
:12:31. > :12:36.He'll never veto tea party congress because he does, let's say in the
:12:36. > :12:40.first term, he'll have opposition in the Republican primaries by the
:12:40. > :12:46.President for the tea party. For the first four years, he has to do
:12:46. > :12:51.whatever the tea party says. Let's hear the voice? How are you saying
:12:51. > :12:56.that Romney is saying he's going to bomb Iran to smithereens, no-one's
:12:56. > :13:00.saying that. Every President's said they don't take use of force off
:13:00. > :13:04.the table. To suggest he's talking about bombing Iran, incorrect. How
:13:04. > :13:07.can you bring up the Middle East when all of candidate Obama's
:13:07. > :13:11.criticism of Bush on the Middle East and Obama's done nothing,
:13:11. > :13:15.there's been two weeks of high level meetings and nothing else, so
:13:15. > :13:18.there is no... People are very disappointed on the Middle East
:13:18. > :13:24.with Obama. That's one of the biggest criticisms. The man from
:13:24. > :13:30.the front row? I think one of the problems with Colleen and her side
:13:30. > :13:34.is they have Romnesia about how bad things were getting in 2008 and
:13:34. > :13:41.they were getting bad because of the take-over of the US with what
:13:41. > :13:47.is called the plutocrisy, the elite, which is monopolising the wealth in
:13:47. > :13:54.the US. That will continue under Romney with the tax proples. He
:13:54. > :14:00.paid 14.1% in the money he earned last year. When asked in 60 minutes
:14:00. > :14:06.he - if he thought that was fair he said yes. They don't work in the
:14:06. > :14:16.same world as us. Obama is coming in again and we'll speak next
:14:16. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:21.Kwasi Kwarteng? I want to get back to what Mark said. Sorry, my poppy
:14:21. > :14:26.has fallen off. You can put it back on. I think what Mark said hit the
:14:26. > :14:30.nail on the head. He suggested that the deficit had doubled and that
:14:30. > :14:35.admittedly Obama came in with a huge fund of goodwill and people
:14:35. > :14:40.were supporting him, cheering, they realised it was an historic moment
:14:40. > :14:43.in America's history with the first African-American President, as
:14:43. > :14:46.Colleen suggested. But if you look at the last four years, what's
:14:46. > :14:50.happened to the American economy, the idea that you could spend your
:14:50. > :14:55.way out of a recession, that you could borrow more money. That's
:14:55. > :14:58.what has caused Obama's problem. He hasn't delivered on the economy.
:14:58. > :15:04.That's why he's under so much pressure in the next week. On
:15:04. > :15:10.foreign policy, I, like many people here, watched the third debate on
:15:10. > :15:14.foreign policy. I think Obama did well. He recovered from his first
:15:14. > :15:17.debate. But what struck me and many people watching the debate is how
:15:17. > :15:21.similar their foreign policy platforms were. I think there was a
:15:21. > :15:26.broad range of agreement. The number of times in which each
:15:26. > :15:30.candidate said, "I agree with Mr Romney, with Governor Romney, I
:15:30. > :15:36.agree with the President" is what was striking about that debate. I
:15:36. > :15:40.don't think foreign policy is going to be an issue in this election. It
:15:40. > :15:44.boils down to the Reagan question, "Are you better off today than you
:15:44. > :15:49.were four years ago?" From Obama's point of view I think too many
:15:49. > :15:54.people would answer in the negative to that question. He's under a lot
:15:54. > :15:58.of pressure. For that reason Romney deserve as really good look at.
:15:58. > :16:04.you would support a Romney presidency? I'm not an American, so
:16:04. > :16:08.I have the luxury of not having to decide. But on balance, looking at
:16:08. > :16:11.the economy, and I make my position clear, in Britain and the British
:16:11. > :16:16.debate, I'm very much in favour of what we call budget consolidation.
:16:16. > :16:20.We've got to look at the deficit. I don't believe you get out of a debt
:16:20. > :16:25.crisis by borrowing more and spending more. On that bases I
:16:25. > :16:32.would probably vote for Mitt Romney on economic grounds. The woman on
:16:32. > :16:37.the left. We heard that Obama is a progressive President, that he has
:16:37. > :16:41.ended wars, but what about the escalation of the drone war. I
:16:41. > :16:46.would say he hasn't been left enough. He's escalated the war.
:16:46. > :16:49.He's taken over from Bush and gone to town on it. In terms of the
:16:49. > :16:55.financial crisis perhaps it is a case of kicking the can down the
:16:55. > :17:01.road. Have we really engaged with the critical issues on the economy.
:17:01. > :17:07.So you would say he doesn't deserve another four years on the basis of
:17:07. > :17:12.the past four? I would never vote for Romney, never in a million
:17:12. > :17:17.years. I'm not appearing for him, that's for sure. There's a
:17:17. > :17:22.challenge for regressives, who are like, we don't want Romney in
:17:22. > :17:27.office. But we are not seeing much progress in terms of Guantanamo Bay
:17:27. > :17:32.either. So Liberals have a reason to be disappointed in this
:17:33. > :17:41.President. Shami Chakrabarti? spoke for me eloquently. I remember
:17:41. > :17:44.that great move day too and I had hope. How could you not be inspired
:17:44. > :17:47.by Obama who said Obama as elected as the President of the United
:17:47. > :17:51.States? He was a constitutional lawyer who promised to shut down
:17:51. > :17:56.Guantanamo Bay and didn't deliver on that promise. He did nothing
:17:56. > :17:59.about the Patriot Act, which has so intruded on the personal privacy
:17:59. > :18:03.and freedom of conscience of Americans. He hasn't ended
:18:03. > :18:07.detention without trial. And the drones. Not just allowing that
:18:07. > :18:10.terrible policy but having a kill list and leaking to the newspapers
:18:10. > :18:15.that he's personally responsible for every person who is
:18:15. > :18:19.assassinated by the drones. That is a terrible disappointment. On the
:18:19. > :18:26.other side of the balance sheet, on equality and non-discrimination,
:18:26. > :18:29.he's been good for women with fair pay and for gay people in terms of
:18:29. > :18:36.repealing some very discriminatory legislation. That's important to
:18:36. > :18:41.too. In tend it is about chairing choices so the voters get what they
:18:41. > :18:45.deserve. I'm afraid what I can tell Mr Romney isn't going to help with
:18:45. > :18:51.Guantanamo Bay and drones either, but he is going to be bad for women
:18:51. > :18:56.and bad for gay people. APPLAUSE too voted for Barack Obama four
:18:56. > :19:01.years ago. I was a little less likely to vote for him but did two
:19:01. > :19:07.weeks ago with my absentee ballot. But there is very little difference
:19:07. > :19:14.between the two based on their record. The reason I chose Obama
:19:14. > :19:20.was Paul Ryan. LAUGHTER The candidate for the vice-presidency?
:19:20. > :19:24.Of the Republican party. You say there is very little between them.
:19:24. > :19:32.Their record. Let's start with Obamacare. It's the single most
:19:32. > :19:37.powerful piece of legislation I would argue since... They stole
:19:37. > :19:44.Mitt Romney's Massachusetts plan. Exactly, but now he says on day one
:19:44. > :19:49.and I'm quoting him, I will repeal Obamacare. I think it is just
:19:49. > :19:53.morally, how dare you run for President of the United States to
:19:53. > :19:58.be leader of the whole nation and to say that the first thing you're
:19:58. > :20:02.going to do, the thing that will put your face on Mount Rushmore, is
:20:02. > :20:07.that by God we will repeal that legislation, which gives healthcare
:20:07. > :20:13.to 30 million Americans. It is so easy for the rest of us to say,
:20:13. > :20:18."Don't worry about it. Jerry, what about the deficit? Here's the
:20:18. > :20:23.deficit. One person raised the issue of the deficit when we went
:20:23. > :20:29.to war in Iraq. Don't worry, we are not going to raise your taxes...
:20:29. > :20:32.not going to raise your taxes... APPLAUSE You are a British
:20:32. > :20:41.politician who lovers his NHS. Don't tell the Americans they can't
:20:41. > :20:48.have a little bit of health insurance. APPLAUSE Your issue with
:20:48. > :20:53.the Iraq war. I'm not saying what the second President Bush was right.
:20:53. > :21:01.He was terrible for the finances of America, I completely accept that.
:21:01. > :21:05.But when you are facing a $16 trillion deficit -- a debt, forgive
:21:06. > :21:09.me. Over time you have to deal with the deficit. But the time for
:21:09. > :21:15.spending is not in a recession. You have to have people who can spend
:21:15. > :21:20.money, or no company will do well. On this point of the NHS and of the
:21:20. > :21:24.Obamacare. Do you believe that, as Jerry says, it is the thing he does
:21:24. > :21:30.on day one? I thought there were problems on doing it at all.
:21:30. > :21:33.big issues are the jobs, deficit and the economy, and Obamacare is
:21:33. > :21:36.going to cause huge problems for the economy. You talked about is
:21:36. > :21:41.there a difference between the two? There's a huge difference. Just
:21:41. > :21:47.look at the background of Romney. Obama talks about the fact he was
:21:47. > :21:52.going to be a healer. Romney worked with a legislates ture in
:21:52. > :21:57.Massachusetts which was 87% Democrats. He changed a $3 billion
:21:57. > :22:02.deficit into a $2 billion surplus. This is a man who came from a rich
:22:03. > :22:07.family and he gave away his inheritance to say, "I want to make
:22:07. > :22:10.this on my own" and he did it. He built up as a successful
:22:11. > :22:17.businessman without taking a penny from his parents. He's a successful
:22:17. > :22:22.politician in a Democratic state. And he goes on to the winter
:22:23. > :22:28.Olympics in Utah, scandal-ridden and in debt, and turned it around.
:22:28. > :22:31.You have an individual who is a problem solver, a pragmatist. Who
:22:31. > :22:36.has been faced with problems and has turned them around. This is why
:22:36. > :22:42.it is so close. People think he can make a difference. On day
:22:42. > :22:47.Washington in addition reducing the corporate tax rate in addition to
:22:47. > :22:51.solving the entitlements. There are not many voters here so we can cut
:22:51. > :22:57.the message. The audience is completely anti-Romney and they
:22:57. > :23:02.don't know anything about him. Look at the first debate. You have the
:23:02. > :23:12.stereotype that many Americans have. I want to steal a question which
:23:12. > :23:12.
:23:12. > :23:16.isn't fair of me, from David Mummery and put it to you. Will the
:23:16. > :23:22.world be a safer or more dangerous place if Mitt Romney becomes
:23:22. > :23:26.President? If he follows through on declaring China as a currency
:23:26. > :23:30.manipulator on day one, that's dangerous. If he follows through on
:23:30. > :23:36.what he said on his approach for the Iranian issue before the last
:23:36. > :23:41.debate, the world will be a more dangerous place. If he follows
:23:41. > :23:48.through on abandoning the Palestinian issue... Let me pick up
:23:48. > :23:54.on an important point that Kwasi made. You have to be serious about
:23:54. > :23:59.the deficit and he is right. Kwasi and I know that you cannot get rid
:23:59. > :24:03.of a deficit unless you are willing to raise taxes as well as clear
:24:03. > :24:07.spending. Mr Romney has said there'll be no tax rises on anyone.
:24:07. > :24:14.He's also promised 20% tax cuts and said he will make up the difference.
:24:14. > :24:19.You know as well as I do, Kwasi, come on, you can't run and say you
:24:19. > :24:25.will limb that a deficit but by the way no-one is going to pay a penny
:24:25. > :24:29.in taxes. That is just not honen honest. APPLAUSE A couple more
:24:29. > :24:37.points from the audience. Thank you. I was just going to refer to
:24:37. > :24:42.Kwasi's point about the deficit reduction. That is irrelevant. I
:24:42. > :24:47.would much more prefer Obama to Romney. The deficit is supposed to
:24:47. > :24:57.be reduced in this country but hate gone up. Everyone is quoting it has
:24:57. > :24:57.
:24:57. > :25:01.gone down by a quarter. The share of GDP has gone down. No, in
:25:01. > :25:06.absolute terms the deficit has gone down. The annual borrowing is
:25:06. > :25:11.increasing at the moment. I think Romney is a dislikeable character,
:25:11. > :25:15.he doesn't seem to stand for very much, but he ran the winter
:25:15. > :25:21.Olympics well, he has a good record in Massachusetts. Unlike a lot of
:25:21. > :25:24.politicians in the UK, he's done other things in his life. He hasn't
:25:24. > :25:29.joined the Conservative Central Office or the Labour Party and
:25:29. > :25:34.worked his way um as a researcher. Are you speaking to these two?
:25:34. > :25:38.specifically but people in politics. He's been in business, delivered
:25:38. > :25:42.for big organisations. And you think that's a deciding factor?
:25:42. > :25:48.you are choosing someone as an executive you need experience.
:25:48. > :25:58.must move away from the American elections. We have the result on
:25:58. > :26:15.
:26:15. > :26:19.Tuesday night. We've got other Another question please. This one
:26:19. > :26:24.from Rebecca Ellis. Is Nick Clegg right to claim that bringing powers
:26:24. > :26:29.back from Brussels is a false promise wrapped in a Union Jack?
:26:29. > :26:32.This was a quote from Nick Clegg today, the claim that powers could
:26:32. > :26:35.be repatriated was a false promise wrapped in a Union Jack. He was
:26:35. > :26:42.critical about the proposals for going to Brussels and trying to
:26:42. > :26:47.reduce the amount we paid into the EU. David Miliband? I think that
:26:48. > :26:52.the fact that no other country supports the repatriation of powers
:26:52. > :26:56.from the European Union means that it is impossible to get powers back.
:26:56. > :26:59.The fact is you need all 27 European countries to agree to
:27:00. > :27:04.treaty change and not one supports that. The priority they've got is
:27:04. > :27:08.sorting tout eurozone mess, and my God they should have sorted it out
:27:08. > :27:13.two or three years ago. That's the overwhelming priority. Secondly, to
:27:13. > :27:18.pick up David's second point, we have a desperate need for reform of
:27:18. > :27:23.the EU budget. We have to get it out of supporting cows, sheep and
:27:23. > :27:26.goats and into supporting skills, universities and innovation. We've
:27:26. > :27:30.got a Government that declared its intention at the beginning as
:27:30. > :27:36.focusing on the sum total that's being spent, not what it is being
:27:36. > :27:39.spent on. Secondly, they have forsaken our allies in northern
:27:39. > :27:42.Europe, in Germany and Holland and in the new Eastern European
:27:42. > :27:48.countries. That's why we've found ourselves completely isolated in
:27:48. > :27:53.the case for reforming the EU budget. It is important for a
:27:53. > :27:58.British audience to know that the way to get our net contribution
:27:58. > :28:03.down is to reform the EU budget. Because the Common Agricultural
:28:03. > :28:05.Policy, which consumes a lot of the EU budget, because of the Common
:28:05. > :28:10.Agricultural Policy that we end up having to have a rebate in the
:28:10. > :28:13.first place. Reform the budget and then you can get on with a lower
:28:13. > :28:18.net contribution from Britain. I think that's why Nick Clegg is
:28:18. > :28:22.right to say Britain is weak in the negotiating chambers of the
:28:22. > :28:26.European Union today. We are in this third tier. The danger is we
:28:26. > :28:35.are going to end up in the fourth tier as well. I don't want to see
:28:35. > :28:42.Your Government gave up some of the rebate we had in Europe and last
:28:42. > :28:46.night you went into the lobby, did you? I always vote Labour. Exactly,
:28:46. > :28:49.regardless of the question. Let's pick up the point. Saying our
:28:49. > :28:53.contribution should be... Let's pick up both those points. First of
:28:53. > :28:56.all, we negotiated in 2005 for the first time ever, instead of Britain
:28:56. > :29:01.paying three times as much contribution as France, we would
:29:01. > :29:03.pay the same as France and secondly we negotiated the enlargement of
:29:03. > :29:08.the European Union which the Conservative Party and the Liberal
:29:09. > :29:12.Democrats both supported and the budget went up to pay for the
:29:13. > :29:19.historic enlargement of the European Union. David... Let me
:29:19. > :29:23.finish the point then take me on. The world's changed since 2005-06,
:29:23. > :29:26.we have had a financial crisis, we need to cut our deficit at home and
:29:26. > :29:30.to make sure we reduce spending in Europe as well. I think there's
:29:30. > :29:34.been a real problem for pro- Europeans like me. We've seemed
:29:34. > :29:40.like we'd always wanted more spending and seemed like we were
:29:40. > :29:45.sort of soft he-headed about more spending. You have a repositioning
:29:45. > :29:49.in the Labour Party to take on this idea that to be pro-European you
:29:49. > :29:51.are always more more spending but we are not, we are more more
:29:51. > :29:56.effective European Union. What happened last night, and I just
:29:56. > :30:01.wanted to two back to Rebecca's question first of all, it's not
:30:01. > :30:05.true to say that it's impossible to get back powers. People said it was
:30:06. > :30:09.impossible when Margaret Thatcher got back some of the rebate. They
:30:09. > :30:12.said she wouldn't bother and she wouldn't get agreement. But she
:30:12. > :30:15.managed through tough negotiation to claw back some of that money.
:30:15. > :30:20.What happened last night in the House of Commons was a spectacle,
:30:20. > :30:22.if you liex, of sheer opportunism on the part of the Labour Party --
:30:22. > :30:25.if you like. They are playing Parliamentary games, they see there
:30:25. > :30:28.was a significant portion of the Conservative Party that was going
:30:28. > :30:32.to oppose the Government and they did what oppositions do, they used
:30:32. > :30:36.their numbers to defeat the Government. It has nothing to do
:30:36. > :30:42.with Labour's actual position because, as David was suggesting,
:30:42. > :30:49.they actually increased the amounts of money they gave to the EU budget.
:30:49. > :30:53.So for David Miliband now to pirouette and suggest this is a
:30:53. > :30:58.real struggle and now he's supporting cutting the budget, I
:30:58. > :31:01.think is completely disingenuous. I think the Labour Party is very
:31:01. > :31:04.consistently for the EU, they want the closer I think integration,
:31:04. > :31:08.they still haven't ruled out joining the euro currency and so
:31:08. > :31:12.for them to pretend that they were more Euro-Sceptic and willing to
:31:12. > :31:17.cut the budget was purely opportunistic.
:31:17. > :31:20.You, Sir? Doesn't the dispute last night in
:31:20. > :31:24.Parliament actually represent what the majority of the British people
:31:24. > :31:30.feel that we should be reducing costs in Europe by actually having
:31:30. > :31:36.a referendum on our membership of Europe?
:31:36. > :31:40.APPLAUSE I think the referendum issue... The vote in Parliament,
:31:40. > :31:45.did it represent the views of the British people? The opportunism of
:31:46. > :31:50.the Labour Party. I disagree. It shows that a lot of people in the
:31:50. > :31:53.country are unhappy with our relationship in Europe. Thing's
:31:53. > :31:57.true. I think Labour and Conservative do not do us justice
:31:57. > :32:02.as a democracy of offering us a referendum, years ahead, always
:32:03. > :32:07.after the event. I think that the Conservative Party, a section of
:32:07. > :32:09.them, was against it, wanted to cut the budget that we were spending or
:32:09. > :32:15.the amount we were paying, which was right. The Prime Minister's
:32:15. > :32:21.view was that this was not a position which we'd be able to get
:32:21. > :32:25.support around and it was very unlikely if he went there, he'd
:32:25. > :32:28.unlikely get support there. He was arguing that we should freeze nit
:32:28. > :32:36.real terms. Doesn't the problem come back to the British people as
:32:36. > :32:41.a whole, we are very unhappy with our relationship? I agree. The vote
:32:41. > :32:44.was 74-75... You, Sir? I agree with that gentleman. Last night it
:32:45. > :32:49.showed our politicians have completely lost faith in Europe. I
:32:49. > :32:53.just think it's laughable that David's party last night had the
:32:53. > :32:59.opportunity to say you have been so pro-up for the past 13 years,
:32:59. > :33:03.suddenly in one night to go, actually I think maybe not, is just
:33:03. > :33:10.opportunistic and a chance to have a go at the Tories in the last
:33:10. > :33:18.three years. That's all you've done with no real alternative whatsoever.
:33:18. > :33:21.Colleen Graffy? Well, I take my law students on a field trip every year
:33:22. > :33:25.to see the European Parliament and we go to Brussels and we also go to
:33:25. > :33:29.Strasbourg to see the European Parliament and if you've not
:33:29. > :33:33.witnessed that, it's something to behold. The building in Strasbourg
:33:33. > :33:37.is absolutely magnificent, but the idea that you have all of these
:33:37. > :33:42.members of European Parliament that are decampling from Brussels to
:33:42. > :33:51.Strasbourg and from Strasbourg to Brussels and the hotels and the air
:33:51. > :33:55.fares and the carbon, it's just a scandal. So I...
:33:55. > :33:59.APPLAUSE So I actually Laud the 53 Tory
:33:59. > :34:02.rebels because I think that their heart was in the right place
:34:02. > :34:06.because they really do believe there needs to be cutbacks on the
:34:06. > :34:13.EU. I also have to say that we know for 13 years that Labour did
:34:13. > :34:18.nothing to cut the costs in the EU and it was cynical and
:34:18. > :34:22.opportunistic, sorry, David. Sorry. Chakrabarti? I wonder if it
:34:22. > :34:27.would ever be possible to have a different kind of debate about
:34:27. > :34:33.Europe that doesn't turn everybody in this room or everybody in Europe
:34:33. > :34:35.into either a rampant xenophobe on the one hand or a fat cat
:34:35. > :34:39.complacent bloated bureaucrat on the other hand. Is it possible,
:34:39. > :34:43.instead of saying are we for or against Europe and the ocean, is it
:34:43. > :34:48.possible to say what kind of Europe, what kind of Europe, who is it
:34:48. > :34:54.working for, who sit - who is it working against, what values should
:34:54. > :34:59.it protect, what priorities should it have, who is it accountable to?
:34:59. > :35:03.That's the tkpe bait -- debate I would like to have if it's possible
:35:03. > :35:06.in any party. I would like to see some powers seriously looked at
:35:06. > :35:09.again. The euro arrest warrant that treats Europe as if it's one
:35:09. > :35:12.country when the standards in the police stations and courts are so
:35:12. > :35:17.different. We shouldn't be carted off from one part to another
:35:17. > :35:21.without protections. Yes, the budget ought to be looked at, but
:35:21. > :35:26.opportunism isn't the monopoly of any particular party. Hang on, one
:35:26. > :35:30.of the things I've been most concerned is about the way that
:35:30. > :35:33.some people in Kwasi's party have deliberately pretended that the
:35:33. > :35:37.Council of Europe is the same as the European Parliament. They
:35:37. > :35:43.haven't done that. They have because they want to rip up the
:35:43. > :35:47.convention on human rights that's protected people from arbitration
:35:47. > :35:52.and it's Churchill's legacy and some people in your party want to
:35:52. > :35:56.rip it up a. That would be a disgrace. Thank you. We haven't
:35:56. > :36:00.done that. Where is the xenophobia you talk about? What I'm saying is,
:36:00. > :36:04.you don't have to be a xenophobe to be concerned about the budget and
:36:05. > :36:09.you don't have to be a bloated bureaucrat to think that Europe has
:36:09. > :36:14.done good things for peace and prosperity in Europe. Swrecked a
:36:14. > :36:20.more intelligent debate. -- we could have a more intelligent
:36:20. > :36:24.debate. You, Sir? Picking up on what Chakrabarti just said, is
:36:24. > :36:29.David Cameron and the Conservative Party responsible for misleading
:36:29. > :36:34.the public about Europe by highlighting cases that are quite
:36:34. > :36:38.rare like cases which people disagree about human rights when
:36:38. > :36:43.he's actually quite clearly pro- Europe because he doesn't want a
:36:43. > :36:47.referendum on it and he knows the economic benefit of it? That's a
:36:47. > :36:51.really interesting point. People are worried about the economy and
:36:51. > :36:54.budgets and it's so easy a distraction to say two fingers to
:36:54. > :36:57.the Court of Human Rights and we'll pull out of the convention on human
:36:57. > :37:03.rites. You are saying it's not the same thing. We'll leave that point
:37:03. > :37:09.and come back to the EU and whether we are wrapping ourselfs in the
:37:09. > :37:14.Union Jack by promising to repatriate powers. What is your
:37:14. > :37:17.view?, Jerry Springer? I'll have to check with President Obama. I'm
:37:18. > :37:23.least qualified on this panel to speak of this issue, I don't live
:37:23. > :37:27.with it every day as you do. you see Europe as a force in the
:37:27. > :37:33.world? I absolutely do. I think what will happen, and I can say
:37:33. > :37:41.this because I won't be alive by then, but the next 20, 30 years,
:37:41. > :37:46.nations will be less relevant. We are already seeing in this
:37:46. > :37:53.globalisation in the way we communicate with each other, our
:37:53. > :37:57.economies, our values, what we think is important. I think
:37:58. > :38:02.countries at some point will have the same relevance as various
:38:02. > :38:09.states have within the United States. In other words, we no
:38:09. > :38:12.longer will have this. What would what would you say about China, the
:38:12. > :38:18.emergence of that, it's a nation state. You don't think it will be
:38:18. > :38:25.an election state? No, again you will have to find me if you are
:38:25. > :38:35.willing to go to hell and you will find me! I hope you last more than
:38:35. > :38:45.20 years, Jerry! You are only 68. Well... What have you done? Have
:38:45. > :38:49.
:38:50. > :38:53.you not seen my show?! Iex China is not going to be this country in 20,
:38:53. > :38:57.30 years from now. Individual Governments are having less and
:38:58. > :39:01.less power over their people. With technology what it is today,
:39:01. > :39:05.Governments can no longer control people, they don't want to be cold.
:39:05. > :39:13.They can get information on their own and they are going to get
:39:13. > :39:17.interests on their own and it isn't going to matter as much to people.
:39:17. > :39:21.This is inevitable. The flag waivers of any particular country
:39:21. > :39:27.30 years from now will be in the minority. Take a look at America.
:39:27. > :39:33.20 or 30 years from now, whites will not be 50% of America any more.
:39:33. > :39:36.It will be the majority of Hispanic, African-American and other
:39:36. > :39:44.minorities. The complexion of every country in the world is ultimately
:39:44. > :39:51.going to strange. This is straying a bit from the EU. No, you ask me...
:39:51. > :39:54.It's the big picture. Go for the big picture! I'm going to defend
:39:55. > :40:02.Jerry because you are being naughty and sarcastic here. The big point
:40:02. > :40:06.is this - this is a shrinking interconnected world and there's
:40:06. > :40:10.going to come a point where we have to decide whether we want to be,
:40:10. > :40:14.you know, foreigners in most parts of the world or human beings
:40:14. > :40:20.everywhere and I think that's a point he's made very well. Hold on
:40:20. > :40:25.a second. Very briefly. David you first then you Kwasi? A massive
:40:25. > :40:28.leadership transition is going on not just in America next week but
:40:28. > :40:32.in China.Ership is changing. The first generation of Chinese leaders
:40:32. > :40:36.who've grown up in a China that was opening up to the rest of the world,
:40:36. > :40:39.the new leadership will have been in their teens in 1978 when China
:40:39. > :40:44.started opening up. My belief is, not like Jerry, that somehow China
:40:44. > :40:48.is going to fall apart, but that group of leaders do understand that
:40:48. > :40:50.China needs radical change to continue to engage with this
:40:51. > :40:56.interconnected world. There's a very important point for us. The
:40:56. > :40:58.truth is that there's an option for countries like ours. You can say,
:40:58. > :41:03.and I don't know whether Kwasi would say this, but the Prime
:41:03. > :41:08.Minister has - the world and future is going to be about flexible
:41:08. > :41:11.networks and that somehow we are going to have close relations with
:41:11. > :41:14.Vietnam, 80 or 90 million people, as we do with Germany. The
:41:14. > :41:18.alternative view is that the world is becoming smaller but the
:41:18. > :41:24.neighbourhood in which you live is going to be incredibly important
:41:24. > :41:27.and we'll always have more in common and rely on our partnerships
:41:27. > :41:31.with Germany than we will with countries like Vietnam. The reason
:41:31. > :41:34.is this - if you are China and you have Britain as a strong part of
:41:34. > :41:38.the European Union knobing on your door about trade or the environment
:41:38. > :41:41.or human rights, we are going to take far more notice of a country
:41:41. > :41:46.like Britain if we are part of the EU than if we are separate. That is
:41:46. > :41:50.the whois we face. Do we go for a world where we have bilateral
:41:50. > :41:53.relations one-on-one, or do we say, those bilateral relations should be
:41:53. > :41:57.strengthened by strong, regional associations that respect national
:41:57. > :42:01.identity but also bring to bear the power that come through being 27
:42:01. > :42:04.together. I put myself in that latter camp because I think that
:42:04. > :42:07.around the world you are going to see in South America, Africa,
:42:07. > :42:12.actually in Asia itself, regional alliances growing that are going to
:42:12. > :42:17.shape the modern world. APPLAUSE
:42:17. > :42:20.I have a slightly different view from David in the brief time that
:42:20. > :42:25.I've followed and been involved in British politics, the attitude
:42:25. > :42:29.towards the EU, that's specifically what we are talking about, as moved
:42:29. > :42:34.away. People did share the internationalism that you talked
:42:34. > :42:39.about, certainly in the '70s and '80s. I was a week old when that
:42:39. > :42:43.referendum took place in 1975 and I can assure you, I don't remember
:42:43. > :42:47.anything about it. People under if age of 53 have never had a say. If
:42:47. > :42:50.you look at the climate today in Britain, the attitudes towards
:42:50. > :42:53.Europe, I think people are very proud of their country and they
:42:53. > :42:58.want to have independence, they want to have a sense in which they
:42:59. > :43:01.are in charge of Britain's own destiny. I don't see the world
:43:01. > :43:05.moulding into this big global Government in the way that people
:43:05. > :43:09.on the panel have described. I think people are very conscious and
:43:09. > :43:12.proud of being British. Doesn't mean they are not international
:43:12. > :43:16.focused but they want to preserve a degree of independence.
:43:16. > :43:19.Thank you. I have a problem because there are
:43:19. > :43:22.a lot of people with their hands up and we could go on talking about
:43:22. > :43:27.Europe for the rest of the programme but we have other
:43:27. > :43:31.questions. I want to take this one from John Lamb. Just before you put
:43:31. > :43:35.it, this is one that's of a local political issue with worldwide
:43:35. > :43:41.implications. John Lamb? Is the Energy Minister right in saying
:43:41. > :43:45.there are enough onshore turbines, or is he tilting at windmills?
:43:46. > :43:52.new emergency minister, John Hayes, who came in and said that enough is
:43:52. > :43:56.enough, we've got enough windmills and by implication, wind power,
:43:56. > :44:00.send it packing because of the disturbance and trouble it causes.
:44:00. > :44:07.Of course it goes to the heart of the I have been yew about green
:44:07. > :44:10.energy and all of that -- heart of the issue about green energy and
:44:10. > :44:20.all that. Jerry Springer, you are in favour of that and Barack Obama
:44:20. > :44:22.
:44:22. > :44:27.is, I'm told? So therefore it's So therefore it is good! Yes, we
:44:27. > :44:34.have to have them. It is not the only answer. We've got to find all
:44:34. > :44:40.kinds of sources of energy. Yes, we are still going to have oil and
:44:40. > :44:45.rely on gas. But we have to go green as well. Do you think wind
:44:45. > :44:55.power works? Is it efficient? some places yes, to some degree yes.
:44:55. > :45:00.Over time perhaps more. With more innovation, more. It's absurd I
:45:00. > :45:06.think to believe that we can just continue to say oil is the answer,
:45:06. > :45:10.oil is the answer, oil is the answer. We can't. Time is not on
:45:11. > :45:16.our side. Speaking of China, as we have more and more consumers of
:45:16. > :45:20.this energy, it's going to become less and less available. No country
:45:20. > :45:27.in the world is going to be able to dig its way out of the energy
:45:27. > :45:33.crisis by just getting more oil under its land. Which by the way it
:45:33. > :45:38.is not even a moral answer. Would we be OK to say that if oil is in
:45:38. > :45:43.Iraq and Iran they get to keep all of their oil and to hell with the
:45:43. > :45:48.rest of the world? No, we want to be able to trade and share. The
:45:48. > :45:52.whole world is going to need energy, so yes we are going to need
:45:52. > :45:57.windmills. No-one is going to want a windmill I'm sure in the middle
:45:57. > :46:02.of Hampstead heath, but at some point we are going to have them
:46:02. > :46:10.some place. There are a lot of people for green energy that want
:46:10. > :46:17.it over there. Colleen Graffy? you impressed that I said hatch
:46:17. > :46:20.said heath? It was very impressive. I think wind farms are an
:46:20. > :46:26.interesting topic because you have environmental issues on both sides.
:46:26. > :46:34.You have those who want wind to be part of our National Grid. Wind
:46:34. > :46:38.energy. It also is a blight on the horizon to have these huge
:46:38. > :46:41.stretchers. So for the United States, America is I think the
:46:41. > :46:48.second largest provider of wind energy and Texas is the number one
:46:48. > :46:54.state providing it. But it is only 3% of our energy. America is huge,
:46:54. > :46:58.so we've got about 84 people per square mile in the United States
:46:58. > :47:05.and you have 640 per square mile. So if you are going to try to have
:47:05. > :47:09.renewable energy, as I believe the European directive is 15% of your
:47:09. > :47:14.national power, I'm not sure you are going to do it all with wind
:47:14. > :47:18.power. I think that John Hayes was tapping into something. Perhaps he
:47:18. > :47:21.was off script, but he was tapping into something in recognising that
:47:21. > :47:27.people feel that perhaps the capacity for wind power has been
:47:27. > :47:31.met. It also Costas lot of money. It's expensive. You, we, are the
:47:31. > :47:35.ones that are subsidising it. The Government is not subsidising it.
:47:35. > :47:42.We want to keep the lights switched on but we want them switched on at
:47:42. > :47:46.a price that we can afford. OK. windmills are aesthetically not
:47:46. > :47:50.pleasing. That's undeniable, but more than that it is completely
:47:50. > :47:53.inefficient. We live on an island, surrounded by water. Surely we need
:47:53. > :47:59.to be able to harness that power and recognise that there are other
:47:59. > :48:05.methods, other green methods, that aren't oil - obviously - which mean
:48:05. > :48:09.we can live sustainably and provide enough energy that we need. Kwasi
:48:10. > :48:15.Kwarteng, I'm puzzled, have we got a new Government policy from this
:48:16. > :48:20.Minister? I think he was slightly off script. He's only just taken on
:48:20. > :48:25.the job He was making a broads point, that we are not going to
:48:25. > :48:30.cover... Enough is enough. That's not a broad point. It was part of a
:48:30. > :48:35.broader debate. Where he was coming from, I think, is that we are not
:48:35. > :48:41.going to cover every square metre from Land's End to John o'Groats
:48:41. > :48:45.with windmills. There'll come a point where we'll be saturated with
:48:45. > :48:50.windmills. What Jerry said about diversity of provision is key to
:48:51. > :48:56.this debate. Will you stop - not stop talking - when you've done the
:48:56. > :49:02.present proposed number? I'm not sure what the limit will be.
:49:02. > :49:06.Chancellor seems to be against them.. There is scepticism about
:49:06. > :49:13.the capacity, that windmill will be the solution to our energy problem.
:49:13. > :49:19.Why not put the windmills in front of Parliament and open the windows?
:49:19. > :49:24.APPLAUSE Actually we could have one on Question Time. Not facing the
:49:24. > :49:27.audience, the panel. David Miliband? Look, we've got an
:49:27. > :49:30.environmental vice is of overwhelming proportions. We are
:49:30. > :49:35.going to need every conceivable source of low-carbon energy that we
:49:35. > :49:40.can find. As it happens this country, and to pick up the lady's
:49:40. > :49:45.point, a really good point, this country is a world leader in
:49:45. > :49:49.offshore wind. We are going to need onshore wind as well. But honestly
:49:49. > :49:53.you've got the Liberal Democrat Secretary of State arguing with the
:49:53. > :49:58.Conservative Energy Minister about 1% of our energy. The truth is if
:49:58. > :50:04.you care about the energy mix and about low-carbon, 30% of our energy
:50:04. > :50:09.comes from coal at the moment. It comes from coal that isn't dug from
:50:09. > :50:15.this country. It is imported from Russia. The biggest thing we can do
:50:15. > :50:20.to contribute to a global challenge as well as ensure cost of supply is
:50:21. > :50:25.to switch from having 30% coal to having putting that 30% into gas.
:50:25. > :50:29.Gas is being discovered all around the world, including in America,
:50:29. > :50:34.shale gas, and we are going to need the wind. But the truth is to
:50:34. > :50:42.debate 1% when you've got 30% coal, we are not doing justisto the
:50:42. > :50:47.environmental challenge, never mind the energy challenge. I don't see
:50:47. > :50:52.how wind energy is going to help us in the future. I don't understand
:50:52. > :50:58.why everyone is so anti-nuclear. You can look at Fukushima, but
:50:58. > :51:05.there's nuclear plants all over the world. Fukushima was old anyway. It
:51:05. > :51:09.was an ancient bit of kit The future, inside this country, to me
:51:09. > :51:14.wind farms is a propeller and nuclear is a jet engine. I don't
:51:14. > :51:19.understand why everyone is so anti- nuclear now. Alright. Shami
:51:19. > :51:22.Chakrabarti? I think we've got a real problem here in that we need a
:51:22. > :51:26.long-material, sustainable policy for sustainable energy, in terms of
:51:26. > :51:31.the environment and in terms of energy security, as David Miliband
:51:31. > :51:35.indicated. We need to develop a consensus that is informed by the
:51:35. > :51:41.science and that is a consensus that deals with different parts of
:51:41. > :51:46.the country, where people live and maybe don't want certain things in
:51:46. > :51:50.their back yard. You can't achieve consensus in one department between
:51:50. > :51:53.two Ministers, how on earth are we going to begin to build a
:51:53. > :51:57.sustainable policy and long-term consensus that we need throughout
:51:57. > :52:05.the whole country for decades ahead? OK. We have four minutes
:52:06. > :52:08.left. One more question, from Rosie McTaggart please.
:52:08. > :52:13.Was Dame Helen Ghosh right to accuse David Cameron of freezing
:52:13. > :52:17.women out of senior Government positions in favour of an old
:52:17. > :52:20.Etonian clique? She is the first female Permanent Secretary at the
:52:20. > :52:23.Home Office, talking to students it's a Cambridge University, and
:52:23. > :52:30.said women didn't get into Government, and David Cameron froze
:52:30. > :52:36.them out in favour of old Etonians. One of which is sitting on my right,
:52:36. > :52:40.except he is not in Government. not in Government. I'm not part of
:52:40. > :52:44.the clique. How many old Etonians are there? Not as many as people
:52:44. > :52:48.say. When Margaret Thatcher started in 1979 there were six old Etonians
:52:48. > :52:53.in the Cabinet. I think the number now is probably one. It is easy to
:52:53. > :52:56.mock and it is quite a funny story, but I don't think it is a
:52:56. > :53:02.reflection of where we are coming from. What about four women in
:53:02. > :53:07.Cabinet? I think we could have more, but the parliamentary party didn't
:53:07. > :53:12.have that ma historically. I'm not sure whether David Cameron has
:53:12. > :53:16.binders full of women. But the issue, as Romney suggested, that
:53:16. > :53:20.some very capable women have come into the parliamentary party on the
:53:20. > :53:25.Conservative side in 2010. A number have been made undersecretaries in
:53:25. > :53:28.the last shuffle. I'm sure that by the end of the Parliament and going
:53:28. > :53:32.forward there'll be many more Conservative women serving in the
:53:32. > :53:36.Cabinet. The trajectory is in the right direction. The Conservative
:53:36. > :53:40.Party, did they do everything right on the last 20 years on this?
:53:40. > :53:43.Probably not. There were failings, but the movement is in the right
:53:43. > :53:47.direction. I think there is improvement. I think we'll be in a
:53:47. > :53:54.much stronger position in the years to come. Did the number of women in
:53:54. > :54:03.the Cabinet rise or fall in the It stayed the same Fell actually. I
:54:03. > :54:08.think it stayed the same. shouldn't be staying the same. Dame
:54:08. > :54:14.Helen Ghosh is an extremely careful and judicious person. For her to
:54:14. > :54:18.lay into the Government in this way is pretty extraordinary. What about
:54:18. > :54:22.the old Etonian element? What I do think, after 13 years in Government,
:54:22. > :54:26.one of the big problems with the Brown Government at the end was it
:54:26. > :54:31.was closing the shutters. It was not opening up the debate. If this
:54:31. > :54:37.is happening in the new Government after two years, that's a real
:54:37. > :54:41.problem. It's a real problem for the Tories. Shoe worry about it. We
:54:41. > :54:45.in Labour can't rest on our laurels. None of news the political class
:54:45. > :54:49.can sit here and say our parties are representative enough of the
:54:49. > :54:52.geography of the country, of the different social classes in the
:54:52. > :54:57.country, of the different ethnicities, never mind the men and
:54:57. > :55:01.women in the country. I hope while Labour people enjoy the discomfort
:55:01. > :55:04.caused to the Tories on this, we need to make our party more
:55:04. > :55:08.representative and change the way we do politics. That's only way to
:55:08. > :55:18.make sure it matters for ordinary people. APPLAUSE
:55:18. > :55:27.
:55:27. > :55:31.Colleen? Well, I think, I worked for con least ska rice. She was
:55:31. > :55:36.fantastic -- Condoleezza Rice. If you want to change a country you
:55:36. > :55:41.need to work with educating women. So across the board of course we
:55:41. > :55:47.want women in politics, but not just to have a woman there. So I
:55:47. > :55:52.really would want to say, hopefully they are all qualified but we just
:55:52. > :55:58.don't want woman there because you want a female. Can I speak? Yes.
:55:58. > :56:04.That's the general idea. As a woman. I'm not going to make the Etonian
:56:04. > :56:08.point, because quasi-is a young Etonian here, and it is in his own
:56:08. > :56:14.way is saying something very important by being here tonight. He
:56:15. > :56:19.will send a signal to lots of black men in the country, and and that's
:56:19. > :56:21.is really important too. There simply are not enough women in
:56:21. > :56:27.Government. Yes, not enough in Parliament but not enough in
:56:27. > :56:30.Government. Liberty is a cross- party, non-party organisation. I've
:56:30. > :56:37.met lots of brilliant young women in your party and they could have
:56:37. > :56:40.been promoted by now. This is good politics as well as an equity issue.
:56:40. > :56:46.You want people to identify with you. You want people to vote for
:56:46. > :56:53.you. It says something about your values and who you are. I agree.
:56:53. > :57:01.APPLAUSE Briefly if you would. is clearly been a problem in
:57:01. > :57:05.America, where often times we have a Government, a political party,
:57:05. > :57:09.that doesn't believe that women are equal, no matter how many you put
:57:09. > :57:13.in Cabinet positions, that they don't permit women to make
:57:13. > :57:17.decisions about their own personal lives and health, that it is
:57:17. > :57:22.condescending that the way we even talk about this issue, "Let's bring
:57:22. > :57:27.the women in, they're really good." Men should just shut up when it
:57:27. > :57:32.comes to women's issues about their own bodies, their own health, what
:57:32. > :57:38.they want to do with their lives. We've grown up in a culture that is
:57:38. > :57:43.so male oriented, we got a lot of work to do, but the best thing we
:57:43. > :57:48.can do is total, total equality for women, not because men are giving
:57:48. > :57:56.it to them, but because by birth they are equal. And a woman
:57:56. > :58:02.President in 2016? Yes. APPLAUSE And I think a woman President. In
:58:02. > :58:07.fact, someone with the last name Clinton. That's very representative.
:58:07. > :58:12.APPLAUSE That's the equivalent of having old Etonians in Cabinet
:58:12. > :58:16.having another Clinton. We've got to stop. Our time is up. Apologies.
:58:16. > :58:22.We only have an hour. I would like an hour and a half. I would like
:58:22. > :58:24.two hours, but they will only give us one hour. Next week we are going
:58:24. > :58:32.us one hour. Next week we are going be in Bexhill. We've got David
:58:32. > :58:42.blunt on our panel, with Shirley Williams and Chuka Umunna. The week
:58:42. > :58:46.that have we'll be in Corby. Visit our website. Or call us if you
:58:46. > :58:50.prefer that. Before that, American election night. I will be in
:58:50. > :58:54.Washington. We've got panellist there is, reporters, experts for
:58:54. > :58:59.the BBC results programme, US election night 2012. It is here on
:58:59. > :59:04.BBC One, 11.30pm on Tuesday evening and throughout the night. It has