:01:12. > :01:17.Thanks so much. I said there had been a by-election and the polls
:01:17. > :01:21.had closed but we don't know the result. So many of you voted here
:01:21. > :01:25.so we don't know the answer. The question comes from cur disBaker,
:01:25. > :01:30.please. The winning party in Corby's come out winner the general
:01:30. > :01:34.election in the last few years, will today's result come out the
:01:34. > :01:41.same? Will the result of today's by-election be the result of the
:01:41. > :01:45.Every time a Government fights a by-election particularly in a
:01:45. > :01:48.marginal seat, it is always an up hill battle and we have said it
:01:48. > :01:52.will be a struggle to hold on to this seat. It has been the case in
:01:52. > :01:55.Parliament year after year after year. Labour lost by-election when
:01:55. > :01:58.they were in Government, medium- term and we lost by-election when
:01:58. > :02:03.we were in Government medium-term. We have got a first rate candidate
:02:03. > :02:09.here. She campaigned hard. We have had a good team. I hope we have
:02:09. > :02:12.fought a campaign that will give us a chance to have another
:02:12. > :02:18.Conservative MP. If we are not successful, that doesn't mean we
:02:18. > :02:22.can't win the next election. Louise Mensch said she thinks this
:02:22. > :02:26.by-election is a judgement on her and not on the Tory Party, but
:02:26. > :02:30.saying it is her fault, do you think that's true? It is always
:02:30. > :02:36.going to be the case that a local electorate will be unhappy when
:02:36. > :02:40.they get a change medium-term. I would never condemn someone in
:02:40. > :02:42.Louise's position, a parent. Many people feel let down, but at the
:02:42. > :02:46.same time if you are a parent yourself, you know sometimes you
:02:46. > :02:50.have to put your family first. The man up there with his hand in
:02:50. > :02:55.the air. You, sir. She came to this constituency on
:02:55. > :02:59.the back of someone else's hard work and she said she was going to
:02:59. > :03:05.do things, she never done them. So I was glad and grateful to see her
:03:05. > :03:05.APPLAUSE Harriet
:03:05. > :03:05.Harriet Harman.
:03:05. > :03:06.Harriet Harman. Well,
:03:06. > :03:08.Harriet Harman. Well, I
:03:08. > :03:13.Harriet Harman. Well, I think this is a very important by-election and
:03:13. > :03:16.I think all eyes will be on the Corby result because it is right in
:03:16. > :03:21.the middle of England and it is very like all the different parts
:03:21. > :03:25.of England in that it has got people who are quite well off and
:03:25. > :03:27.comfortable, but are worried about things like what is going to happen
:03:27. > :03:31.to young people and are their standards of living getting
:03:31. > :03:37.squeezed, but it has got people who find it quite a struggle to make
:03:37. > :03:42.ends meet. So it is a very diverse community that is very typical of
:03:42. > :03:46.large parts of England. So I hope that they will have listened to the
:03:46. > :03:53.message that Ed Miliband put out, that one nation message, I hope
:03:53. > :04:03.that they will have elected Andy who I think would make an excellent
:04:03. > :04:04.
:04:04. > :04:06.MP for Corby, one to which you are entitled.
:04:06. > :04:16.APPLAUSE And you have your ear close to the
:04:16. > :04:18.
:04:18. > :04:21.ground. Before I go to Nigel Farage, do you think UKIP have done well?
:04:21. > :04:23.They say it might be their best Westminster result ever? Some
:04:23. > :04:26.people are saying jokingly that the Tories have split the UKIP vote, I
:04:26. > :04:29.don't know. We should never second- guess the voters actually. At the
:04:29. > :04:32.end of the day people have gone in with their secret ballot and we
:04:32. > :04:34.will have to wait and see, but it is a very important result for us
:04:34. > :04:38.and all eyes will be on it. Nigel Farage. Well, Labour are
:04:38. > :04:42.going to win. I think that is clear because the Tory vote will collapse
:04:42. > :04:46.in Corby because of Louise Mensch and because people don't like being
:04:47. > :04:53.forced to vote in elections that they see to be unnecessary, but
:04:53. > :04:57.also because there is a collapse of confidence amongst traditional
:04:57. > :05:02.Conservative voters in David Cameron who they see as another
:05:02. > :05:06.Social Democrat. Is it going to be right, they said,
:05:06. > :05:11.every general election the past 30 years, Corby has been the
:05:11. > :05:15.bellwether? Not necessarily because there is change taking place in
:05:15. > :05:18.British politics. Think of Scottish politics with the SNP going from
:05:18. > :05:23.being a small party to being a majority. Look at Northern Ireland,
:05:23. > :05:27.with the DUP went from a tiny back street party party to being the
:05:27. > :05:32.biggest party in Northern Ireland. We are going through change in
:05:32. > :05:39.English politics. I think the feeling amongst millions of vote
:05:39. > :05:43.voters that these three parties are indistinguishable from each other
:05:43. > :05:47.on most major issues, attitudes towards climate change and wind
:05:47. > :05:51.turbines all over our country and that's why the UKIP vote is going
:05:51. > :05:55.up. People are looking for a fresh alternative and I would not think
:05:55. > :06:05.because Labour win tomorrow that guarantees anything for 2015. We
:06:05. > :06:07.
:06:07. > :06:08.are living in a period, I think, of great change in English politics.
:06:08. > :06:12.APPLAUSE I think Nigel Farage has actually
:06:12. > :06:17.hit it on the head. A lot of people are disillusioned with the Tories
:06:17. > :06:24.and Labour and to a lot of people UKIP is lick a breath of fresh air.
:06:24. > :06:34.OK. Well, you are the great wizard of political manipulation and man
:06:34. > :06:37.ufrg and you did Thatcher's victory in 87 and the Major one in 91. So
:06:37. > :06:41.do you think the Tories fought a good election here? I think the
:06:41. > :06:47.Conservative Party will be well and truly menched actually and I don't
:06:47. > :06:52.think it was not a time for spin in this particular case. It was a
:06:52. > :06:54.time... No place for you? unfortunately not. We were not
:06:54. > :07:03.particularly involved in this. No, the Conservative Party have to take
:07:03. > :07:07.it on the chin. I think yes, Louise Mensch, anyone is allowed to
:07:07. > :07:10.withdraw their labour. I think she signed up for five years. She could
:07:10. > :07:14.have anticipated her problems with her children. She did two. She had
:07:14. > :07:24.a contract and a commitment and she let the people of Corby down. I
:07:24. > :07:43.
:07:43. > :07:45.think she was more interested in Louise Mensch than she was in Corby.
:07:45. > :07:47.APPLAUSE And so I think it would be very
:07:47. > :07:50.different come the general election, that will be strategy B when it
:07:50. > :07:52.comes to that, but for this particular - in this particular
:07:52. > :07:55.instance, the people of Corby feel let down by the Conservative Party
:07:55. > :07:57.and not the local candidate, but the Liam with the expenses scandal
:07:57. > :08:00.and I am not surprised that some of the other parties will do better.
:08:00. > :08:02.The man in green there. Louise Mensch shares a lot of
:08:02. > :08:03.characteristics with Nadine Dorries that they put themselves first and
:08:04. > :08:07.their principles second. She is still eating testicles in
:08:07. > :08:12.the jungle! Tessa Munt. We had a good candidate,
:08:12. > :08:14.a lady called Jill Hope, but I suspect this will be something that
:08:14. > :08:17.polarizes between the two main parties.
:08:17. > :08:21.Do you think she will keep her deposit? I hope so.
:08:21. > :08:26.Do you think she will come before or after UKIP? I don't know about
:08:26. > :08:35.that. I don't know what is going to
:08:35. > :08:38.happen. She is full of hope! We were a very small party once.
:08:38. > :08:42.People said you could get the Liberal Democrats into the back of
:08:42. > :08:46.a taxi and that wasn't many years ago and for small parties it takes
:08:46. > :08:50.a long time to grow. In answer to what Nigel said, I think it will be
:08:50. > :08:54.a long time to the point where he has got, there are 57 of us in
:08:54. > :09:00.Parliament, we have been good at by-elections in its past, I don't
:09:00. > :09:04.think we are meant to win this one, but we had a good fight and a good
:09:04. > :09:14.candidate. Let's leave the by- election and we will get the result
:09:14. > :09:17.
:09:17. > :09:27.tomorrow. A question from Robert Anderson. Should we put put Abu ka
:09:27. > :09:27.
:09:27. > :09:33.tadder on a plane to Jordan. Nigel Farage? We put Christopher
:09:33. > :09:37.Christopher Tappen on a plane to America. We put a young lad on a
:09:37. > :09:41.plane to Greece where he was left to rot in appalling conditions and
:09:41. > :09:47.released without charge. We are happy to send our citizens off all
:09:47. > :09:57.over the world and yet, we are so terrified of the European Court of
:09:57. > :09:59.
:09:59. > :10:00.Human Rights in Strasbourg, an an organisation which was...
:10:00. > :10:02.APPLAUSE Which was set-up after the war with
:10:02. > :10:05.good intentions, but has far out reached its purpose. Look, there
:10:05. > :10:08.are many other European countries who are members of that court who
:10:08. > :10:12.choose from time to time to ig ignore its judgements. We have a
:10:12. > :10:15.promise from a Jordanian Government. They have changed their
:10:15. > :10:18.constitution to say say that he will not be tortured if he is sent
:10:18. > :10:22.back to Jordan and it is time the British Government showed a little
:10:22. > :10:32.bit of backbone and said to hell with the European Court of Human
:10:32. > :10:37.Rights and yes, put him on a plane. There is only problem with that
:10:37. > :10:41.argument. It was actually a British court in which he succeeded. It was
:10:41. > :10:46.a commission of a British court and when he went, when this case went,
:10:46. > :10:50.I mean it has been four times since January into court. He knows our
:10:50. > :10:55.court system inside out and on the three previous occasions, three of
:10:55. > :10:58.which were the European Court of Human Rights, he lost and it is one
:10:58. > :11:02.British court, the Court of Appeal that he lost in and it was only
:11:02. > :11:07.this week when he went into the British immigration commission
:11:07. > :11:12.appeals that he actually lost. Now what I find extraordinary is that
:11:12. > :11:17.we find ourselves in a situation where this man is walking the
:11:17. > :11:21.streets between 8am and 4pm and I am not sure why it is since we are
:11:21. > :11:25.quite convinced from all sorts of different sources that he has been
:11:25. > :11:30.involved in bomb plots, he has been involved in terrorism of one sort
:11:30. > :11:35.or another. He has been preaching against the liberal elite which has
:11:35. > :11:40.benefited him, he has been living here since 1993 and he chose to
:11:40. > :11:43.come here... Do you think he should be put on a plane to Jordan?
:11:43. > :11:47.should be arrested now. If there is any chance that he will be left
:11:47. > :11:55.here and not go back to Jordan, the time has come for us to arrest him
:11:55. > :11:59.and run him through or court system under a charge.
:11:59. > :12:03.Chris Grayling? You are Justice Minister, you are Lord Chancellor,
:12:03. > :12:06.you are involved in this. What's your view? This is about a British
:12:06. > :12:10.court and tempting though it maybe and I would like to see the back of
:12:10. > :12:13.him as soon as possible, but for Government ministers, police
:12:13. > :12:17.officers, immigration officials, court officials, to ignore a ruling
:12:17. > :12:21.by a UK court would be a deeply dangerous step and one we can't
:12:21. > :12:25.take. Equally, it was the court that released him on to the street.
:12:25. > :12:29.We are clear, we disagree with the legal decision. We will appeal
:12:29. > :12:31.against the legal decision. We are working behind the scenes to take
:12:31. > :12:38.whatever action we can to make sure he leaves the country as soon as
:12:38. > :12:42.possible. I am clear, where Nigel Farage is right, that I also think
:12:42. > :12:46.that the Human Rights framework which operates in Europe moved a
:12:46. > :12:52.long way away from the original views of its creators back in the
:12:52. > :12:56.1950s at a time when Stalin was in power and when people were sent to
:12:56. > :13:01.prison without trial. One of my tasks is to find a framework that
:13:01. > :13:06.will work for the future and to put it to the electorate at the next
:13:06. > :13:10.election. I would like to get it through sooner, but there is not a
:13:10. > :13:20.majority in the House of Commons at the moment. Were the courts right
:13:20. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:27.I disagree with the verdict and we will appeal against it.
:13:27. > :13:31.disagree with the verdict but don't judge him to coming to that
:13:31. > :13:35.conclusion? Judges have a right in an independent judiciary to reach
:13:35. > :13:38.the verdicts they believe are right according to law. That's a
:13:38. > :13:42.principal we have to hold sacrosanct because it doesn't apply
:13:42. > :13:45.in other parts of the world. We can still appeal against them, but if
:13:45. > :13:49.you walk away from the independence of judges in a court to form their
:13:49. > :13:54.view of what is right under the law, you move to a place that lots of
:13:54. > :13:58.people in the world have to live in where there is no justice.
:13:58. > :14:04.APPLAUSE So it's the law you think is wrong?
:14:04. > :14:07.Yes. Would you like to see us leave, as I think you did once imply - the
:14:07. > :14:12.European Court of Human Rights - you said once, not ruling it in or
:14:12. > :14:17.out? That'S exactly my position at the moment. One of my key tasks is
:14:17. > :14:23.to set out an alternative strategy for the Hythe framework in Europe.
:14:23. > :14:27.We cannot carry on the way we are - - human rights framework. I'm not
:14:27. > :14:30.ruling anything in or out because I'm new in the job. The Attorney
:14:30. > :14:33.General saying no question of us withdrawing. You have to win him
:14:33. > :14:37.over? I'm responsible for delivering the strategy at the
:14:37. > :14:43.moment, I'm ruling nothing in and nothing out. So you will have to
:14:43. > :14:45.win him over. You are senior to him aren't you? I don't know where the
:14:46. > :14:48.hierarchys fit. I will take colleagues with me but there are
:14:48. > :14:56.strong views in the Government with this. The Prime Minister says he's
:14:56. > :14:58.completely fed up. Is there a problem, Harriet Harman about
:14:58. > :15:04.leaving the European Court of Human Rights or abandoning the
:15:04. > :15:08.conventions of it? I think that we shouldn't leave the European
:15:08. > :15:13.Convention on Human Rights. I think the European court, I completely
:15:13. > :15:15.agree with Chris when he says he shouldn't criticise judges in this
:15:15. > :15:18.country and it would be inappropriate for him to do that
:15:18. > :15:21.but I think the European court have made a ruling under the European
:15:21. > :15:25.convention which is causing a problem. It's causing a problem in
:15:25. > :15:30.this country and it's causing a problem in a lot of other European
:15:30. > :15:34.countries as well. We've got a situation where this man is not a
:15:34. > :15:38.British citizen, everybody agrees that he is what is describe as not
:15:38. > :15:42.condeuce toif the public good and should not be entitled to stay here
:15:42. > :15:47.and that's butting it at its mildest, yet we can't deport him
:15:47. > :15:52.because there's a fear that if he's deported to Jordan, he'll be put on
:15:52. > :15:56.trial and evidence will be used that will be on tained via torture.
:15:56. > :16:01.You don't have a problem with that? I don't think we should deport
:16:01. > :16:05.people if they'll be tortured or evidence which is obtained by
:16:05. > :16:09.torture will be moved but I'll tell you what I think is the worry. OK,
:16:09. > :16:13.we need to make sure we can get an agreement with Jordan with an
:16:13. > :16:18.agreement by the courts and we can deport him. The worry is, as Tessa
:16:18. > :16:22.said, he's walking around free. Actually, we did have a system in
:16:22. > :16:25.the past whereby if somebody was not a British citizen and we wanted
:16:25. > :16:29.to deport them but hadn't got through the processes, at least we
:16:29. > :16:33.could keep them in detention. The problem is, it's not only worrying
:16:33. > :16:38.people in terms of his dangerousness, but the cost as well
:16:38. > :16:42.of having to monitor him. I think what needs to happen is that all
:16:42. > :16:46.the countries in Europe for whom this judgment of the European court
:16:46. > :16:50.is causing difficulties should go back to the court and say, think
:16:50. > :16:56.again, this is not just about terrorism or torture, this is about
:16:56. > :17:00.our own immigration processes and you must let us decide who we allow
:17:00. > :17:03.to walk around in this country and not tell us that he's got to be
:17:03. > :17:09.free in this country. APPLAUSE
:17:09. > :17:13.What about Italy and France have done in the past in just sending
:17:13. > :17:17.him off? I don't think we should be having a country where we disobey
:17:17. > :17:24.the law, we have to obey it and the law must make sense.
:17:24. > :17:27.You, Sir, on the left there? Just curious. See if you go to the Court
:17:27. > :17:30.of Appeal, you have got to eventually remove him, because
:17:30. > :17:34.realistically you are going to set a precedence and anybody that comes
:17:34. > :17:38.to this country, they are going to come here and do as they like
:17:38. > :17:43.because we are a soft touch, everybody in Europe knows it.
:17:43. > :17:46.APPLAUSE You in the middle with the tie,
:17:46. > :17:51.young man? Foreign nationals engaged in terrorist related
:17:51. > :17:54.activitys in this country shouldn't be allowed to walk around freely
:17:54. > :17:58.along our British streets. They're a threat to society, they should be
:17:58. > :18:03.locked up, yes. APPLAUSE.
:18:03. > :18:08.The man over there on the right, you, Sir? Two things. One it makes
:18:08. > :18:11.us look weak as a country and secondly, why don't we ask Jordan
:18:12. > :18:18.to demand him back and then give him back. It might sound very
:18:18. > :18:21.simple, but surely there's got to be a way.
:18:21. > :18:26.Moray MacLennan? I'll introduce a small note of dissent in this
:18:26. > :18:29.because I read the things you read about this man and what he's done,
:18:30. > :18:33.Osama Bin Laden's right hand man, and on top of that today that he's
:18:33. > :18:37.costing us �5 million a year and wants a bigger house because the
:18:37. > :18:41.�400,000 one isn't big enough and all those reasons why you feel like
:18:41. > :18:46.putting him on a boat and sticking him out in the mid Atlantic
:18:46. > :18:50.somewhere. The only question I have, and I know I'm supposed to answer
:18:50. > :18:55.questions - we say he's breaking the law and smoub arrested - why
:18:56. > :18:59.has he never been convictd? He hasn't even been charged with
:18:59. > :19:03.anything for ten years -- and should be arrested. I read all
:19:03. > :19:05.these things but I've never read about the police taking any action
:19:05. > :19:11.against him and I would like to understand why not. It's a slight
:19:11. > :19:19.sense of unease. All right. Chris Grayling, before
:19:19. > :19:23.you answer, let me quote what the judge said in March, 2004, way, way
:19:23. > :19:28.back. "He was heavily involve and was at the centre in the UK of
:19:28. > :19:33.terrorist activities associated with Al-Qaeda, he's a truly
:19:33. > :19:38.dangerous individual". Why under Labour nor Conservative, has it
:19:38. > :19:43.been not possible to prosecute him? The Jordanians do want him back to
:19:43. > :19:46.try him and that pre-dates the legislation that the last Labour
:19:46. > :19:49.Government introduced sensely that now allows us to try people here
:19:49. > :19:54.for alleged terror offences wherever they take place in the
:19:54. > :19:56.world so we can't use that law to apply in this particular case. I
:19:56. > :20:01.don't know whether there's been sufficient evidence to bring him
:20:01. > :20:07.before a court in the last ten years, in this country. If there
:20:07. > :20:11.was and if there has been, I would wish that to happen. You have to
:20:11. > :20:14.have enough evidence to charge someone. You may believe someone,
:20:14. > :20:21.but unless you have the evidence to bring someone before a court,
:20:21. > :20:25.charge and convict them, we didn't do it in this country. It's the
:20:25. > :20:32.Jordanians who want him and we have to help get him back there as
:20:32. > :20:35.quickly as possible. If people are to be trusted with voting in
:20:35. > :20:39.commissioners, why can't people be trusted not to kick this man out
:20:39. > :20:44.the country or not, why can't the people decide instead of leaving it
:20:44. > :20:48.to politicians? Well, for the law in fact. Referendums. Well, in a
:20:48. > :20:51.sense, you can't take the European Court of Human Rights issue and
:20:51. > :20:54.separate it out from the European Union issue. I'm interested to hear
:20:54. > :20:59.what Chris Grayling is saying, but actually they are both one and the
:20:59. > :21:02.same thing. They are not. They are not. This is what you get, the
:21:02. > :21:06.political class lining up telling you they're separate things. They
:21:06. > :21:10.don't want you to know that you cannot remain a member of the
:21:10. > :21:13.European Union if you say no to the European Court of Human Rights.
:21:13. > :21:16.I pause you a second. There's a difference between joining the
:21:16. > :21:20.European Union, in which case you have to subscribe to it, as I
:21:20. > :21:24.understand it, but what about leaving? Are you kicked out of the
:21:24. > :21:28.EU, are you saying Britain would be kicked out if Abu Qatada was sent
:21:29. > :21:34.back? I'm saying if Chris Grayling is serious in saying that he wants
:21:34. > :21:36.to consider whether we remain part of the ECHR or not, he's by
:21:36. > :21:41.implication saying maybe we'll leave the European Union. If we had
:21:41. > :21:50.a referendum on EU membership, this would be a central part of the
:21:50. > :21:53.whole debate. No-one wants to talk about it. Every time you are on
:21:53. > :21:57.this programme, we debate whether should be a referendum. Good things
:21:57. > :22:04.- absolutely! Not this time. There should be one. I know you do. The
:22:04. > :22:07.woman at the back there, then I'm going on, the very back row?
:22:07. > :22:10.Just wondering whether or not the lack of evidence being provided is
:22:10. > :22:15.a result of the fact that some of the evidence obtained could have
:22:15. > :22:19.been done through illegal phone hacking? And may not be there...
:22:19. > :22:23.Harriet Harman, what is your view of that, you were a lawyer? Is
:22:23. > :22:27.there evidence that can't be used in court? It's perfectly possible
:22:27. > :22:32.to answer Moray's question, to have a very strong view that this person
:22:32. > :22:36.is not somebody you want to be entitled to be in this country. The
:22:36. > :22:39.people who're British citizens are entitled to be in this country. The
:22:39. > :22:44.people who're not British citizens, we have a discretion as to whether
:22:44. > :22:48.to allow them to be here, and actually, we can say we don't want
:22:48. > :22:51.him here, even if he's not actually committed criminal offences, we
:22:51. > :22:56.know enough about him, we think we know enough about him to think that
:22:56. > :23:03.we do not want to have him here, but it might fall short of enough
:23:03. > :23:08.evidence that would be the basis on which he could be convicted. It's
:23:08. > :23:12.not our discretion then, is it? Well, that's the problem. The court
:23:12. > :23:15.is saying that actually, you can decide you don't want him here, but
:23:15. > :23:20.actually, you are stuck because you can't actually send him back to
:23:20. > :23:25.Jordan. We have to go back to the European court sand say, you are
:23:25. > :23:29.causing a whole load of countries a problem, not just us, we've got to
:23:29. > :23:32.decide our own immigration policy and therefore if they can't be
:23:32. > :23:36.deported because that would risk torture, at least they could be
:23:36. > :23:41.detained and we wouldn't feel unsafe and it would be cheaper than
:23:41. > :23:44.having all the surveillance of him. So we could have him detained here?
:23:44. > :23:49.Yes and he could go somewhere if he wanted and he couldn't walk around
:23:49. > :23:59.in the streets. Another question. You can join this debate on Twitter.
:23:59. > :24:08.
:24:08. > :24:17.Careful how you use twiether these You can also text us to see what
:24:17. > :24:21.other views are saying. Question from David Cremonesimi.
:24:21. > :24:31.Shouldn't we be spending more time discussing how we can better
:24:31. > :24:32.
:24:32. > :24:35.protect children than worry about who is running the BBC? APPLAUSE
:24:35. > :24:38.Moray MacLennan? Yes, I think we should, especially with the news
:24:39. > :24:44.tonight it appears that this may be the tip of the iceberg and there
:24:44. > :24:50.are going to be, I would estimate, thousands of people coming forward.
:24:50. > :24:54.This is not something new. Clearly it goes back decades. It's
:24:54. > :24:59.interwoven though with the BBC debate and the BBC debate is one,
:24:59. > :25:04.in my view, that needs to be about a culture at the BBC that allowed
:25:04. > :25:09.this to happen and a culture and a process and structure that allowed
:25:09. > :25:13.the Newsnight programme to go out. That should be the focus of the
:25:13. > :25:18.debate with the BBC, is how to rectify that. There's a phrase
:25:18. > :25:23.which is used in retail which is called "Value crystallises in the
:25:23. > :25:27.store" and that means nothing has value unless it improves the
:25:27. > :25:31.customer's experience in the shop and I think that should be the
:25:31. > :25:34.ruthless application of that to the BBC, that anything that doesn't
:25:34. > :25:40.contribute to the integrity and the quality of the programme on the
:25:40. > :25:43.management side of things should be done away with. That is the test
:25:43. > :25:47.that should be applied. Value crystallises in the programming.
:25:47. > :25:50.There isn't a problem, in my view, with the quality of the programming,
:25:50. > :25:54.the journalism. You travel around the world, not only is it admired
:25:54. > :25:57.still everywhere, it's actually a tool for democracy and it's one
:25:57. > :26:02.thing that is way ahead of any other country and it should not be
:26:02. > :26:08.cut back or sliced up. It should be strengthened, it should maintain
:26:08. > :26:16.its ambition, but it needs to be split, in my view, between the
:26:16. > :26:18.Editor in Chief, the creative side of things if you like and the
:26:18. > :26:22.director-general and the only positive things that's coming out
:26:22. > :26:25.of this as far as the abuse cases are concerned are there are clearly
:26:25. > :26:29.thousands of people out there and the listening to the moving
:26:29. > :26:33.interviews that they give, I heard them on the radio where after
:26:34. > :26:38.decades they've actually felt that they can talk about this and the
:26:38. > :26:42.relief of that that gives them and how that makes them feel is perhaps
:26:42. > :26:48.the only positive aspect to come out of this. Were you asking
:26:48. > :26:53.whether the media as a whole is too obsessed about the BBC and has lost
:26:53. > :26:56.sight of the fact that there's been child abuse? The answer was all
:26:56. > :27:00.about the BBC. We are doing an independent review on the BBC, it's
:27:01. > :27:05.not the culture of the BBC that's the problem, it's the culture in
:27:05. > :27:10.this country at how we protect our children, they are not being
:27:10. > :27:13.protected and we should have a review into looking at how we
:27:13. > :27:17.protect children. Harriet Harman? It's very important that we think
:27:17. > :27:21.again and think very carefully about how we protect children and
:27:21. > :27:25.learn lessons. I think that what we are going to get is, as Moray says,
:27:26. > :27:30.this is the tip of the iceberg, there's going to be hundreds of
:27:30. > :27:35.people who've lived with the awful fear and guilt and suffering and
:27:35. > :27:41.all the tortured feelings of what's happened if you've been sexually
:27:41. > :27:45.abused as a vulnerable child. There's going to be inquiries into
:27:45. > :27:48.why the Department of Health put Jimmy Savile in the position of
:27:48. > :27:52.trust in Broadmoor, who happened about why the police didn't
:27:52. > :27:56.prosecute or investigate why the CPS didn't prosecute what happens
:27:56. > :27:59.at Leeds general infirmary, as well as the BBC. I think that, as well
:27:59. > :28:04.as just having fragmented investigations around the country,
:28:04. > :28:08.we do need to have an overall inquiry really understanding the
:28:08. > :28:12.lessons of what went wrong. I hope nobody will think, oh, that
:28:12. > :28:16.happened then, it couldn't happen now, and all we've got to do is
:28:16. > :28:20.think about the awful things that happened to those victims then and
:28:20. > :28:24.try and make things better for them. We've got to do that. But we've not
:28:24. > :28:30.got to be complacent and think that that sort of thing doesn't happen
:28:30. > :28:36.now. I think there's been actual weakening of the child protection
:28:36. > :28:39.system recently or potentially. For example, there's the rules in
:28:39. > :28:42.relation to vetting and barring, you know, whereby you have to check
:28:42. > :28:45.people's criminal records before they are allowed to work with
:28:45. > :28:50.children have been slightly relaxed. We've got a situation where many
:28:50. > :28:53.social workers who've got responsibility for children have
:28:53. > :28:57.now got bigger case loads and can do less investigation. We've just
:28:57. > :29:01.got a new law which is that if somebody makes an allegation
:29:01. > :29:06.against a teacher of child abuse, that has to be kept secret. It
:29:06. > :29:09.can't be made public until there's actually a charge. So I think that
:29:09. > :29:13.we've been moving a bit in the wrong direction, we do have to
:29:13. > :29:19.listen to children, we do have to take it seriously. As far as the
:29:19. > :29:23.BBC is concerned, I agree with Moray, I think the BBC, having got
:29:23. > :29:27.it very disastrously wrong on this, showing a tribute programme to
:29:27. > :29:31.Jimmy Savile when they had in the building evidence of his abuse,
:29:31. > :29:34.that was terribly wrong. Then implicating somebody in child abuse
:29:34. > :29:39.who it turns out wasn't guilty of it. I mean that was terribly wrong.
:29:39. > :29:43.But actually, the BBC is still loved, still trusted, a period of
:29:43. > :29:53.stability and sorting it out needs to happen but I think the BBC will
:29:53. > :29:55.
:29:55. > :30:01.Let's come back to the point about child abuse, Chris Grayling there
:30:01. > :30:08.has been a tendency to pull back from the control particularly
:30:08. > :30:11.Michael Gove and the decision to keep private the information?
:30:11. > :30:16.would refute that. Let's take the example of a teacher. What we have
:30:16. > :30:21.had in our schools many, many occasions is a pupil making an
:30:22. > :30:25.allegation against a teacher of violence which maybe untrue. And
:30:25. > :30:28.that teacher is thrust into the public eye and their career is
:30:28. > :30:33.ruined on-the-spot. Even though they may have done nothing, they
:30:33. > :30:37.have been charged with nothing, we think we need to provide protection
:30:37. > :30:41.for those teachers. Not that those incidents shouldn't be
:30:41. > :30:44.investigateted, but it is unfair to expose people to allegations if
:30:44. > :30:49.they are guilty of nothing and if those allegations are going to ruin
:30:49. > :30:52.their career. That's the change we have made. Now look, in terms of
:30:52. > :30:57.the broader question, I am with you. One of the reasons, it would be
:30:57. > :31:04.easy this week, having had the BBC in the position it is, over the
:31:04. > :31:08.appalling allegations made about Lord McAlpine, it would be easy to
:31:08. > :31:13.say we will pull back in terms of new inquiries. I am responsible for
:31:13. > :31:18.one of those, the judge-led inquiry into what took place in North Wales.
:31:18. > :31:22.To make sure the previous judge-led inquiry covered all the issues and
:31:22. > :31:25.looked at all the aspects of the complaints about child abuse. I
:31:25. > :31:29.think that inquiry should continue. Whoever was involved in it, we have
:31:29. > :31:32.evidence from a victim that suggests that the full picture was
:31:32. > :31:36.not brought forward at the time. We need to get to the truth. Not just
:31:36. > :31:41.so we have closure for those people involved, but so lessons are
:31:41. > :31:45.learned. One of the lessons of the last few months with the horrible
:31:45. > :31:49.incidents we have seen in Bradford of young girls being groomed by
:31:49. > :31:52.gangs of men, it proves it can and still does happen today so we need
:31:52. > :31:57.to make sure that we learn lessons of the past to make sure it doesn't
:31:57. > :32:00.continue in the future. You see what Chris has just said...
:32:00. > :32:03.Briefly Harriet. Whenever an allegation is made, it
:32:03. > :32:09.is very difficult for the person against whom an allegation is made
:32:09. > :32:13.if it is a false allegation, but what Chris is doing is picking out
:32:13. > :32:16.children and saying that because they are likely to be making a
:32:16. > :32:19.false allegation against their teacher of sexual abuse, therefore,
:32:19. > :32:24.you should have special arrangements to protect the teacher.
:32:24. > :32:29.The point is where does the balance of risk lie and you must... This
:32:29. > :32:32.might be just a clip around the ear in the classroom and what happens
:32:32. > :32:35.if there is an allegation of violence against a teach near the
:32:35. > :32:38.classroom, whether or not it is true, that teacher finds themselves
:32:38. > :32:43.in the public eye. Sometimes in the newspapers. We don't want to see
:32:44. > :32:47.the careers of descent teachers destroyed on allegation, unless the
:32:47. > :32:50.allegation are proved to be true. This applies to sexual abuse as
:32:50. > :32:54.well. Does it apply to sexual abuse as
:32:54. > :32:57.well? It applies to all violence in the classroom and it is not
:32:57. > :33:00.unreasonable to give our teachers protection unless they are they are
:33:00. > :33:07.proven to be guilty of something. The point has been taken. The woman
:33:07. > :33:10.at the back there. Just to clarify. You think it is OK
:33:10. > :33:19.for teachers to clout their students around the ear then?
:33:19. > :33:23.didn't say that. You just said that. If there has
:33:23. > :33:27.been an allegation and if it is not certain that allegation is true, it
:33:27. > :33:30.should not be the case that the acsays are made publicly because
:33:30. > :33:34.whether or not it turns out to be true, in that situation the
:33:34. > :33:38.teacher's career is ruined. No, but you just said if it was
:33:38. > :33:40.just a clout around the ear... shouldn't face their career being
:33:40. > :33:46.ruined. You said if it was just a clout
:33:46. > :33:50.around the ear suggesting... didn't say that at all.
:33:50. > :33:56.You did just say that. We weren't talking about an
:33:56. > :33:59.allegation of child abuse, it it could be an allegation of any kind.
:33:59. > :34:04.I am glad you don't think we should have violence in the classroom.
:34:04. > :34:10.The woman on the left. On the far left. Yes. There is a massive flaw
:34:10. > :34:14.in the CRB system. I have... Criminal records checking, yes?
:34:14. > :34:20.have six CRBs covering me to work in one town because it is done
:34:20. > :34:25.every two years. I could go out and be very violent because you can't
:34:25. > :34:31.catch me for another year-and-a- half. How about it comes a live
:34:31. > :34:36.system and I have a PIN card, you take my card and number and find
:34:36. > :34:42.out what I did yesterday. The woman at the back?
:34:42. > :34:47.I do believe that we should support vulnerable young students, children
:34:47. > :34:52.and young adults, but how can can we when the support services are
:34:52. > :34:56.cut? I work in a school and there is hardly any services left out
:34:56. > :35:01.there. Tessa Munt, do you believe that the allegations that we have
:35:01. > :35:04.taken our eye off the ball on the business of sexual abuse is
:35:04. > :35:09.justified? That somehow there is more that can be done? There is an
:35:09. > :35:12.awful lot more that can be done. I grew up at a time when there was no
:35:12. > :35:17.ChildLine and I think probably most of the children in most of our
:35:17. > :35:20.schools would know about ChildLine and they would understand and a lot
:35:20. > :35:26.of them call ChildLine to know that there is somebody on the end of the
:35:26. > :35:30.line there. One of the things I would like to say. Firstly,
:35:30. > :35:36.violence, all violence is unacceptable whether that's child
:35:36. > :35:40.to child, adult to adult, adult to child. That's the first thing that
:35:41. > :35:45.I would say. The BBC, if I go back to your question, David. The BBC
:35:45. > :35:50.has to be commended on one thing particularly and that is it has
:35:50. > :35:54.dealt with one victim, a member of the House of Lords, with speed and
:35:54. > :36:00.somehow they have come to an arrangement today where he will be
:36:00. > :36:06.paid �185,000 plus his costs. Now I heard him speak very emotionally
:36:06. > :36:13.about the anger and the hurt that had been caused to him by what had
:36:13. > :36:20.happened to him through Facebook and Twitter and inference. I don't
:36:20. > :36:25.know how anyone can possibly forget the anger and hurt that has been
:36:26. > :36:31.caused to countless number of young people in all of this because where
:36:31. > :36:36.that member of the House of Lords, if he is not guilty, who is? And
:36:36. > :36:40.what is happening about checking what is happening with all of that?
:36:40. > :36:46.Because that, I can't remember of the name of the gentleman, Stephen
:36:46. > :36:50.something, the young man who made the allegations, clearly he had
:36:50. > :36:53.made a mistake and there were all sorts of problems around that, but
:36:53. > :36:59.somebody did that to him and that needs to be tracked down and we
:36:59. > :37:05.can't forget that. The other thing I would say, as a mother, I taught
:37:05. > :37:08.my children to show respect for their elders, good manners and be
:37:08. > :37:13.graceful to people who are older than them and better than them, but
:37:13. > :37:18.what they needed to learn and what I tried to teach them is that trust
:37:18. > :37:26.is something that is earned and that's a very different thing.
:37:26. > :37:31.Nigel Farage? I think David's question is the right question in a
:37:31. > :37:34.sense because we started off talk being the appalling sex abuse of
:37:34. > :37:39.young children, but the BBC has become the story and it dominated
:37:39. > :37:44.things. The BBC, how we run the BBC, how it is managed, it is very, very
:37:44. > :37:52.important. But the nub of your question look, the BBC are by no
:37:52. > :37:55.means a monopoly. In trusted institution where abuse has taken,
:37:55. > :37:59.we have seen this happen in churches and it has been happening
:37:59. > :38:04.all over the place, but the question is, there are lots of bad
:38:04. > :38:06.things that happen in the world, but how do we deal with them?
:38:06. > :38:09.During the Labour years we moved into a situation where the
:38:09. > :38:13.Government said we are going to do everything we can to protect people
:38:13. > :38:17.and this includes young children and so we move into a system where
:38:17. > :38:22.people get accused of things and even if they are completely
:38:22. > :38:30.innocent, there has has become a remember versal of the burden of
:38:30. > :38:35.proof. Now, we have seen what happened to Lord McAlpine. He had
:38:35. > :38:38.these allegations made against hem and he will get compensated, but
:38:38. > :38:42.how many other people out there lose their jobs? How many other
:38:42. > :38:45.people out there are forbidden from working with children again on the
:38:45. > :38:49.basis that accusations get made, but are not backed up by firm
:38:49. > :38:52.evidence. We must be very, very careful as a society that we do not
:38:53. > :39:02.do away with the principle that everybody is innocent until they
:39:03. > :39:06.
:39:06. > :39:08.are proven guilty and that to me is even more important.
:39:08. > :39:10.APPLAUSE I will take one more point, you
:39:10. > :39:12.sir? As a consultant paediatrician, I spend a lot of my time
:39:12. > :39:14.unfortunately having to deal with the assessments. You mentioned
:39:14. > :39:16.sexual abuse, the other categories are emotional abuse and physical
:39:16. > :39:20.abuse and neglect is the biggest thing that causes the problem for
:39:20. > :39:23.the children here the reason we are getting neglect is the children in
:39:23. > :39:27.this country are getting poorer. We need to start start thinking about
:39:27. > :39:37.supporting the families and the children and the Government has to
:39:37. > :39:38.
:39:38. > :39:39.change the policies to allow that to stop happening.
:39:39. > :39:46.APPLAUSE I am going on to another question
:39:46. > :39:56.because time passes. John Morris? Should we be boycotting tax dodging
:39:56. > :40:26.
:40:26. > :40:28.Well, on Monday, we heard the Public Accounts Committee of the
:40:28. > :40:31.House of Lords hearing from Amazon, Starbucks and Google saying they
:40:31. > :40:33.barely paid any tax and being asked by the chairman or being told by
:40:33. > :40:35.the chairman, "We are not accusing you of being illegal, we are
:40:35. > :40:37.accusing you of being immoral." Should we therefore stop using what
:40:37. > :40:40.we think are companies that are behaving immorally. Harriet Harman
:40:40. > :40:43.do you go to Starbucks? I decide that had I will not go to Starbucks
:40:43. > :40:46.because I am so angry about what they are doing about not paying
:40:46. > :40:49.their tax. I was passing a shop the other day in South London called
:40:49. > :40:53.Star Bikes and it is a bike shop and they had a big sign staying
:40:53. > :40:56.Star Bikes and underneath it said, "We pay our taxes." You have got
:40:56. > :41:00.the coffee shop, the independent coffee shop on the corner, trying
:41:00. > :41:05.to make a go of things and they are going under cut by a big global
:41:05. > :41:09.company that is not paying their taxes. You have got John Lewis
:41:09. > :41:13.saying that if Amazon continues to not pay their taxes, John Lewis
:41:13. > :41:17.will end up going out of business. What people feel so angry about is
:41:17. > :41:21.this idea and I can't remember what American person said that taxes are
:41:22. > :41:27.for the little people. It is really important that big companies pay
:41:27. > :41:31.their taxes as well as small buns, but -- small ones, but as well as
:41:31. > :41:35.people doing selective boycotts, we have got to have more transparency.
:41:35. > :41:39.We have got to change the company law to make sure that companies
:41:39. > :41:43.cannot tell shareholders, "We are making loads of profits, please
:41:43. > :41:50.let's have a high share price." But tell the tax person that actually
:41:50. > :41:55.they are not making any profits. We can't have corporate, a cloak of
:41:55. > :42:00.confidentiality and also companies that are doing business with the
:42:00. > :42:05.Government like contracts for PFI or privatisation, they should be
:42:05. > :42:09.open and paying their taxes. What do you make of Starbucks operating
:42:09. > :42:15.14 years and never making a profit? They are making a profit, but are
:42:15. > :42:18.concealing it in other countries where they pay less tax. People say
:42:18. > :42:23."the Government is spending more money. That makes things worse."
:42:23. > :42:27.Here is an argument where if you spend a bit more money, you can
:42:27. > :42:30.save money. HMRC, the Government inspector of taxes need to be
:42:30. > :42:39.properly resourced as well as backed up by the law so they can
:42:39. > :42:42.get after these people and make sure they pay their taxes.
:42:42. > :42:52.Moray MacLennan? Well, it is an interesting one this because a
:42:52. > :42:58.couple of those are my clients. OK. But if they were - Google has
:42:58. > :43:03.been our client and Amazon as well. If they were to come to me for tax
:43:03. > :43:08.advice I would say to them to do the right thing. Not for which
:43:08. > :43:11.means paying a fair rate of tax and to take that attitude because not
:43:12. > :43:15.and I wouldn't get into the vagaries of morality, I don't think
:43:15. > :43:20.that they need to particularly or the law. I would just say that it
:43:20. > :43:24.is good business. I think that it is good business for them to put
:43:24. > :43:28.their customers before shareholders because that will be good for
:43:28. > :43:33.shareholders and in many of these companies, because there are others
:43:33. > :43:37.like Apple and Facebook that pay pay lower rates of taxes.
:43:37. > :43:40.Wouldn't they have to put up their prices? They would pay more tax
:43:40. > :43:43.overall. It would be a low percentage, but the risk is higher
:43:43. > :43:46.that they will lose money in the longer term because of what the
:43:46. > :43:50.gentleman said. Most of these companies know the power of social
:43:50. > :43:53.media. They know that reputations can turn on a sixpence and things
:43:53. > :43:57.can turn bad and I think that it would be good business for them
:43:57. > :44:00.therefore, to do the right thing and pay tax and it would be good
:44:00. > :44:10.for shareholders and good for the customers and that's what I would
:44:10. > :44:11.
:44:11. > :44:15.advice them to do. I do believe that what makes people
:44:15. > :44:19.angry, is the fact that these companies are big. All eyes in the
:44:19. > :44:24.world are on them. So when they are avaiding tax, everyone is seeing
:44:24. > :44:29.that -- evading tax. When a local person, someone who has a low
:44:29. > :44:32.income fails to pay even �100 in council tax, they are taken to
:44:32. > :44:37.court and charged, even regardless of whether they have money or
:44:37. > :44:42.they've been ill, they are not able to afford it, but you put your eyes
:44:42. > :44:49.so much on the person who is earning little money or nothing at
:44:49. > :44:54.all and push them all the way when the big fish in the sea is
:44:54. > :44:56.overlooked. So it is a Government problem that has got to be looked
:44:56. > :45:00.into. APPLAUSE
:45:00. > :45:04.All right. What can be done about big companies that behave not
:45:04. > :45:08.illegally, as was made clear, but immorally and take the tax
:45:08. > :45:12.somewhere else that by rights should be here in this country?
:45:12. > :45:16.think firstly it's important to say the big fish are not being
:45:16. > :45:20.overlooked. We increased the tack from organisations and individuals,
:45:20. > :45:25.wealthy individuals sheltering finances in tax last year by a
:45:25. > :45:31.third, we have put resources into the Inland Revenue to chase after
:45:31. > :45:36.people who may not be paying taxes. I rather agree with Moray that the
:45:36. > :45:39.power of individual consumers but social media is enormous. I worked
:45:39. > :45:43.in the corporate reputation field before being an MP. Believe me, I
:45:43. > :45:46.know the damage that can be done to a corporate reputation if you find
:45:47. > :45:51.yourself in a position where the public feel you are getting it
:45:51. > :45:55.wrong. If you look at the example of Nike, going through a difficult
:45:56. > :45:59.patch because of their problems in Asia, working additions of their
:45:59. > :46:03.workforce. What we must not do is tar all companies with the same
:46:04. > :46:07.brush. The truth is, something like half corporation tax we receive in
:46:07. > :46:11.this country comes from foreign- owned companies, so do not believe
:46:11. > :46:15.all foreign-owned companies are trying to avoid tax in the UK and
:46:15. > :46:18.managing their affairs so they do not pay it. There may be some that
:46:18. > :46:22.manage their affairs in a way people disapprove of, but we
:46:22. > :46:28.mustn't tar them with the same brush. But you need the revenue.
:46:28. > :46:33.Would you encourage people to switch from star bucks to Costa
:46:33. > :46:40.because you get the revenue? I have no doubt people will make their
:46:40. > :46:47.minds up without the help of a politician. They'll look up to you.
:46:47. > :46:53.I don't go to Starbucks. Why not? It's a cop out. What about Amazon?
:46:53. > :47:02.I've shopped at Amazon and also John Lee wis.
:47:02. > :47:09.The man there? -- Leigh Lewis. a Starbucks franchise holder which
:47:09. > :47:14.means it's my business, I pay my royalties, I pay my taxes, I employ
:47:14. > :47:19.19 people, people start avoiding, what am I going to do, I'm going to
:47:19. > :47:23.go out of business. The fact is that people don't understand
:47:23. > :47:28.franchising and the vast majority of Starbucks stores in the UK are
:47:28. > :47:32.franchised. You pay your taxes? pay royalties to Starbucks, what
:47:32. > :47:36.they do beyond it, that is the question. We pay our taxes locally,
:47:36. > :47:40.we pay our people and everything else, and there's not a great deal
:47:40. > :47:46.left at the end of it. OK. Thank you very much.
:47:47. > :47:50.APPLAUSE Some members on the panel haven't
:47:50. > :47:53.spoken. Nigel Farage? The answer of course is that people won't boycott
:47:53. > :47:59.Starbucks and in the run-up to Christmas they'll be going on
:47:59. > :48:03.Amazon and buying their books, but I'm astonished to hear Harriet
:48:03. > :48:08.talking and to hear Chris talking. They've forgotten something. The
:48:08. > :48:12.reason this is happening is because we are part of a European single
:48:12. > :48:17.market and that's how it works! APPLAUSE
:48:17. > :48:21.That's how it works. The European agreement - don't shake your head -
:48:21. > :48:24.you are the enthusiast and you don't know how it works. The
:48:25. > :48:29.European single market with other countries including Switzerland set
:48:29. > :48:33.up a tax agreement years ago that said effectively, we are now all
:48:33. > :48:37.Nkunda triand if you are a big corporation, you can choose the
:48:37. > :48:43.European jurisdiction in which you choose to pay your tax, surprise
:48:43. > :48:47.surprise people are mostly opting for Ireland, Luxembourg or
:48:47. > :48:51.Switzerland because they are the cheapest jurisdictions. That is why
:48:51. > :48:53.it's happening district council simple.
:48:53. > :48:57.APPLAUSE In Switzerland, you could always
:48:57. > :49:02.set up in Switzerland outside the EU? But it's part of the economic
:49:02. > :49:06.area and this tax deal. If you left the EU, as you would like people to
:49:06. > :49:09.vote to do, companies could still operate from Switzerland and not
:49:09. > :49:16.pay tax? Well, that would depend if the British Government wanted to do
:49:16. > :49:20.a resip Rickal deal with Switzerland or not. We'd have two
:49:20. > :49:25.choices. If we ran our own tax policy properly, we could have our
:49:25. > :49:29.own tax rates or we could do what Dublin have done, try to undercut
:49:29. > :49:31.the others, have a cheaper tax rate and get business to Britain that
:49:31. > :49:37.way. I think as of next year or maybe
:49:37. > :49:41.the year after, we'll have the corporation tax going down to 22%,
:49:42. > :49:46.that will be the cheapest in the G7 and fifth in the G20. Not sure
:49:47. > :49:51.where we are going with that. Luxembourg and Ireland are cheaper.
:49:51. > :49:55.But we will be the cheap nest the G7 when we get to that point. I
:49:55. > :49:59.would like to go back to the question that John raised.
:49:59. > :50:03.Boycotting companies does work as long as we know we are basing it on
:50:04. > :50:09.fact. In Totnes in the West Country, there was a planning application
:50:09. > :50:13.deemed as being aggressive and lots, thousands of people, wrote to their
:50:13. > :50:17.local council and said, we don't want this particular coffee outlet
:50:17. > :50:20.in town because there were 49 independent coffee retailers in the
:50:20. > :50:23.town already. They got their planning permission but the
:50:23. > :50:28.publicity around that was so poor that they've now withdrawn from
:50:29. > :50:33.going into that town. So people power does work. When you've got
:50:33. > :50:38.companies like Starbucks who poor loves, you know, they are so poor
:50:38. > :50:43.and running this charity so well, they are actually going to open up
:50:43. > :50:47.another 200 drive- thrus and will have more shops in the next few
:50:47. > :50:50.years, I don't believe that's the case. They are buying their coffee
:50:50. > :50:56.very expensively from themselves in Switzerland. What we should be
:50:56. > :51:00.doing to these companies is saying, somehow we have to get a meckism to
:51:00. > :51:05.they pay some tax on UK sales -- mechanism. A sales tax on coffee
:51:05. > :51:11.then. Let us go on. We've got five minutes or so before we have to end
:51:11. > :51:19.this programme. A question from Abhai Rajguru, please?
:51:19. > :51:25.Who is wrong? Hamas or Israel? Who is wrong - Hamas or Israel?
:51:25. > :51:29.Nigel Farage? There's fault on both sides. I've always tried to defend
:51:29. > :51:33.Israel and their right to have their nation and I sympathise with
:51:33. > :51:40.them because they're surrounded by countries, in some cases, that want
:51:40. > :51:43.to obliterate them from the face of the earth. If they respond to
:51:44. > :51:47.whatever provocation they get by assassinating a leader figure on
:51:47. > :51:51.the other side, they can't be surprised if rockets appear.
:51:51. > :51:54.differ from the Foreign Secretary? I do on this. That they have
:51:54. > :52:00.principal responsibility? I do on this, and there's always fault on
:52:00. > :52:10.both sides in a fault like this. I did find it deeply ironic though on
:52:10. > :52:10.
:52:10. > :52:12.the news tonight, we were hearing the peace envoy Tony Blair saying
:52:12. > :52:18.we should have peace in the Middle East and I couldn't work that out
:52:18. > :52:21.for the life of me how we get that. Is the Government right or wrong to
:52:21. > :52:26.say Hamas bears principal responsibility for this crisis?
:52:26. > :52:31.There's terrible suffering in Gaza, no doubt about that, but they were
:52:31. > :52:38.wrong to be sending rockets into southern Israel which were actually
:52:38. > :52:42.sent in before the assassination. But we totally condemn that and and
:52:42. > :52:46.the retaliation by Israel is not going to bring peace anywhere
:52:46. > :52:52.nearer, it's not going to make the Israelis feel any safer which they
:52:52. > :53:00.are entitled to feel safe within their borders and it's not going to
:53:00. > :53:04.bring the rocket attacks are not going to bring peace or ease the
:53:04. > :53:08.suffering. We need a renewed itch tus behind one of the biggest
:53:08. > :53:12.international diplomatic failures. We need to broker a peace deal
:53:12. > :53:16.between Israel and Palestine -- impetus. We must have a two-state
:53:16. > :53:20.solution. If people give up hope, they'll resort more to violence.
:53:20. > :53:24.The new administration, the new Obama administration and the new
:53:24. > :53:28.Secretary of State, when they come in America, must make this a
:53:28. > :53:33.priority. But why do you think that William Hague sided so strongly
:53:33. > :53:37.with Israel against Hamas and was that condusive to a ceasefire and a
:53:37. > :53:41.settlement, in your view? Well, Chris will interpret what William
:53:41. > :53:48.Hague said. You are the Leader of the Opposition, you heard what he
:53:48. > :53:52.said? But we strongly condemn what Hamas did. Sending rockets into
:53:52. > :53:57.civilian places in southern Israel is totally wrong. But we think that
:53:57. > :54:01.the Israelis too should not just be restrained but they should end the
:54:01. > :54:04.retaliation and we should instead have a diplomatic effort. Chris
:54:04. > :54:07.Grayling, perhaps you would... APPLAUSE
:54:07. > :54:10.Perhaps you could throw light on what the Foreign Secretary said?
:54:10. > :54:14.Harriet and I would both agree on this. What seems to have started
:54:14. > :54:18.what took place was a series of rocket attacks, very large number
:54:18. > :54:22.of rockets sent into civilian areas in southern Israel. That's not
:54:22. > :54:25.going to help create a lasting peace in the Middle East, so
:54:25. > :54:29.clearly we see Hamas as bearing a substantial part of the
:54:29. > :54:32.responsibility for what's happened. What has to happen now is, we need
:54:32. > :54:35.to get both sides to stand down, we need to return to negotiation. At
:54:35. > :54:39.the end of the day, it's in everyone's interests in Israel,
:54:39. > :54:42.Gaza, other parts of the Middle East that, we secure a lasting
:54:42. > :54:46.solution. We'll never get a lasting solution if there's violence taking
:54:46. > :54:50.place in the area. We have got to get both sides to stand down and
:54:50. > :54:56.have to get round the table again. That is what Harriet Harman said.
:54:56. > :54:59.What William Hague said was that Hamas has principal responsibility
:54:59. > :55:03.for the current crisis. I'm asking you, as a member of the Tory
:55:04. > :55:08.Government, why he said that and what it's intended to achieve in
:55:08. > :55:12.this context, to point the finger so very clearly? Because we have to
:55:12. > :55:17.start by a recognising that the firing of rockets into civilian
:55:17. > :55:21.areas seems to have started this from Gaza, something that none of
:55:21. > :55:25.us could do about it other than condemn. What we have to do, and
:55:25. > :55:29.there'll be efforts to try to get both sides to stand down, round the
:55:29. > :55:34.table and to restore a peaceful solution, that's all we can seek to
:55:34. > :55:40.do. You in the fourth row? Do you not think Israel are making their
:55:40. > :55:44.intentions clear by calling up 30- ,000 odd reservists? Yes, I think
:55:44. > :55:51.this has the potential to escalate and escalate and escalate and I
:55:52. > :55:56.think clearly our place is to urge restraint. We have to recognise
:55:56. > :56:02.that our Middle East peace envoy ought to be there and not making
:56:02. > :56:12.phone calls for John Prescott. I say that. I don't mean that in a
:56:12. > :56:13.
:56:13. > :56:21.political party pant way, he has a role to play and shob -- I don't
:56:21. > :56:25.mean that in a flippant way, we he has a role to way. You can wage war
:56:25. > :56:30.but you end up having to talk peace and you have to keep negotiating.
:56:30. > :56:35.We need people there who can talk and bring the sides together if
:56:35. > :56:38.they possibly can and to de- escalate what's happening.? Moray
:56:38. > :56:41.MacLennan? In this particular incidence you could say that Hamas
:56:41. > :56:46.bears more of the blame but the problem with this is that it's a
:56:46. > :56:49.chain reaction and to two back to the original limp, you go back 60
:56:49. > :56:55.years and it's a fruitless exercise I think, just to echo what some
:56:55. > :56:58.other people have said, this is the only way potentially, because it's
:56:58. > :57:02.looking worrying, especially looking at the news tonne ierbgts
:57:02. > :57:08.it could get out of control in the Middle East which is more unstable
:57:08. > :57:18.than ever, is to use Obama, his skills, charisma and power to
:57:18. > :57:24.perhaps get people sitting down and de-escalate the -- is the only hope.
:57:24. > :57:27.You, Sir, just briefly? Don't you think the continuation of building
:57:27. > :57:32.illegal settlements on Palestinian land is something to do with it?
:57:32. > :57:38.They ignored what Obama was saying, they are antagonising them all the
:57:38. > :57:42.time? Briefly, Moray? I think so, but trying to depick who did what
:57:42. > :57:45.to whom when is a fruitless exercise and won't actually get to
:57:45. > :57:49.the only desirable outcome right now which has to happen quickly I
:57:49. > :57:53.think given the news as we heard about the mobilisation of troops
:57:53. > :57:58.which is to just stop it and get people around the table. It's look
:57:58. > :58:01.bing like than likely tonight. Thank you very much. Next week we
:58:01. > :58:05.are in Westminster Hall as part of Parliament Week and we'll have Iain
:58:05. > :58:12.Duncan Smith for the Conservatives, Yvette Cooper for Labour, Charles
:58:12. > :58:16.Kennedy for the Liberal Democrats, and the star of Dragons' Den, Debra
:58:16. > :58:19.Meighan. The week after that, we'll be in Swansea. If you can come to
:58:19. > :58:23.the grand setting of Westminster Hall or to Swansea the following
:58:23. > :58:31.week and put questions to our panel, go to the website in the usual way
:58:31. > :58:36.or call the number on the screen. My thanks to our panel here, to all