2:00:00 > 2:00:00QUESTION TIME FKR Y901T/01 BRD476880
2:37:01 > 2:37:08.
2:37:13 > 2:37:15The government tells us the pain will last longer than they thought.
2:37:15 > 2:37:18What do voters think? Welcome to Question Time.
2:37:24 > 2:37:27Good evening and a big welcome, as ever, to our audience in Liverpool,
2:37:27 > 2:37:29an audience that is at the heart of Question Time,
2:37:29 > 2:37:31and, of course, to our panel -
2:37:31 > 2:37:33the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Francis Maude,
2:37:33 > 2:37:36the shadow health secretary Andy Burnham,
2:37:36 > 2:37:39the President of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron,
2:37:39 > 2:37:42Leanne Wood, the leader of Plaid Cymru,
2:37:42 > 2:37:45and the editor of The Financial Times, Lionel Barber.
2:37:45 > 2:37:48APPLAUSE
2:37:57 > 2:38:00Good. And Steve Kirkbride, you kick off tonight.
2:38:00 > 2:38:03Do the panel agree with George Osborne -
2:38:03 > 2:38:05are we "All in this together"?
2:38:05 > 2:38:07"Are we all in this together?" Tim Farron?
2:38:07 > 2:38:09Well, we need to be...
2:38:09 > 2:38:11No, the question isn't "need", it's "are we".
2:38:11 > 2:38:15- LAUGHTER - OK, well, we need to be is the answer and I think that there
2:38:15 > 2:38:17is a clear sense out there,
2:38:17 > 2:38:20and if you're brought up in the North, like me,
2:38:20 > 2:38:22and you've gone to a comprehensive school, like me,
2:38:22 > 2:38:24and you've never experienced wealth, like me,
2:38:24 > 2:38:26and probably most people here,
2:38:26 > 2:38:29then there is a sense that there are some people
2:38:29 > 2:38:33who are enduring these difficult times with more ease than others, shall we say,
2:38:33 > 2:38:35when you've got people who are extremely wealthy
2:38:35 > 2:38:37who remain extremely wealthy.
2:38:37 > 2:38:40That's why it was important, for example, in the statement yesterday
2:38:40 > 2:38:43that we increase the amount of tax that wealthy people pay.
2:38:43 > 2:38:45Why it was important that we prevented it,
2:38:45 > 2:38:48you will remember two months ago, at Tory conference in Birmingham,
2:38:48 > 2:38:50they wanted to take ten billion out of welfare.
2:38:50 > 2:38:53They wanted to stop young people claiming housing benefit,
2:38:53 > 2:38:56they wanted to stop people on low incomes having child benefit
2:38:56 > 2:38:57for a third child and above,
2:38:57 > 2:38:59and you will have seen that none of those things
2:38:59 > 2:39:01were in yesterday's statement.
2:39:01 > 2:39:04It is critically important, at a time like this,
2:39:04 > 2:39:07that we do protect the interests of those who are the least well off
2:39:07 > 2:39:09and those people who are the richest should be paying more.
2:39:09 > 2:39:11Should more be being done?
2:39:11 > 2:39:13Yes, but I'm in no doubt whatsoever
2:39:13 > 2:39:17that yesterday the changes that were made, from our perspective,
2:39:17 > 2:39:20for example, the lowest-paid 23 million people in this country
2:39:20 > 2:39:21now have an income tax cut,
2:39:21 > 2:39:24if you're on minimum wage you've had a 50% income tax cut
2:39:24 > 2:39:26in the last two years,
2:39:26 > 2:39:29the pension's gone up by the highest amount since Lloyd George introduced it.
2:39:29 > 2:39:31These are incredibly difficult times and we, as Lib Dems,
2:39:31 > 2:39:35have to fight in the trenches, day in, day out, to make sure that
2:39:35 > 2:39:37it's not just the poor who are paying the burden,
2:39:37 > 2:39:39it is the rich who pay their fair share.
2:39:39 > 2:39:43Where did you lose out? You say you'd like more to have been done.
2:39:43 > 2:39:46Well, I personally take the view that we shouldn't have given away
2:39:46 > 2:39:49the top rate of income tax down to 45p,
2:39:49 > 2:39:53even though that's more than was the case in most of Labour's reign.
2:39:53 > 2:39:55I take the view that not only should you be raising more money
2:39:55 > 2:39:57from people who are the wealthiest,
2:39:57 > 2:39:59you need to be seen to be doing it as well.
2:39:59 > 2:40:01I take the view that whilst we're taking more from the bankers,
2:40:01 > 2:40:04that is progress, we should be taking even more.
2:40:04 > 2:40:07We shouldn't be reliant on Starbucks having to volunteer ten million
2:40:07 > 2:40:09in terms of taxation.
2:40:09 > 2:40:11We should be changing the tax code
2:40:11 > 2:40:13so that incredibly wealthy multinationals
2:40:13 > 2:40:14are paying their fair share.
2:40:14 > 2:40:17APPLAUSE
2:40:20 > 2:40:21Andy Burnham?
2:40:21 > 2:40:23Well, no is the answer
2:40:23 > 2:40:26and George Osborne can't know many people on benefits
2:40:26 > 2:40:28because he thinks all, everybody who is on a benefit
2:40:28 > 2:40:31is lying in bed until eight or nine o'clock with the curtains closed.
2:40:31 > 2:40:3560% of the people he hit yesterday with his changes to benefits
2:40:35 > 2:40:39are the people who he claims are walking past those houses
2:40:39 > 2:40:42with the curtains closed, because people get working tax credit,
2:40:42 > 2:40:44child tax credit.
2:40:44 > 2:40:45Mums who get maternity benefit,
2:40:45 > 2:40:47these are the people that he's hitting -
2:40:47 > 2:40:50the so-called "strivers," as he says.
2:40:50 > 2:40:52And, you know, and the money it raises
2:40:52 > 2:40:56is exactly the same as the tax cut, the break is giving to millionaires
2:40:56 > 2:41:00by cutting the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p.
2:41:00 > 2:41:02And in a week when we learned from the Office of National Statistics
2:41:02 > 2:41:09that the top ten percent are 850 times richer than the bottom ten percent,
2:41:09 > 2:41:11how could these changes be fair at all?
2:41:11 > 2:41:15Are you against the holding down benefits to one percent,
2:41:15 > 2:41:16lower than inflation?
2:41:16 > 2:41:18We're going to have to look at the bill that comes forward.
2:41:18 > 2:41:22Well, this is George Osborne to a T. He sets these political traps
2:41:22 > 2:41:23and it's all about trying to put us in a trap.
2:41:23 > 2:41:26- We'll look at this bill when it comes forward. - Why is it a trap?
2:41:26 > 2:41:28Let me just come back on the general point.
2:41:28 > 2:41:29The principle is wrong.
2:41:29 > 2:41:32This kind of holding down benefits across the board.
2:41:32 > 2:41:34Number one, it's going to hit kids.
2:41:34 > 2:41:36It's going to hit the kids of these families who've got no,
2:41:36 > 2:41:38they've got no choice about it.
2:41:38 > 2:41:40Number two, it's going to damage the spending power of those families
2:41:40 > 2:41:44- and that won't help the economy. Three, it's a false economy... - So vote against!
2:41:44 > 2:41:47- To fund some of those families... - Are you going to vote against?
2:41:47 > 2:41:50- We're going to look at the bill when it...- Why not vote against after what you said?
2:41:50 > 2:41:52There'll be a range of measures in there.
2:41:52 > 2:41:53I don't want this blanket approach
2:41:53 > 2:41:55where you hit all people in this way.
2:41:55 > 2:41:57The last thing I want to say
2:41:57 > 2:41:59is when people look back on this period
2:41:59 > 2:42:00they will consider that phrase,
2:42:00 > 2:42:03"We're all in it together," one of the most deceptive
2:42:03 > 2:42:06and cruel pieces of political spin this country has ever heard.
2:42:06 > 2:42:09APPLAUSE
2:42:10 > 2:42:14Woman in the back, there. The woman at the very back. You.
2:42:14 > 2:42:17You say, "All in this together," but at the end of the day,
2:42:17 > 2:42:20you haven't met what you said you set out to do.
2:42:20 > 2:42:23You were going to cut the deficit after so many years.
2:42:23 > 2:42:24And, all of a sudden,
2:42:24 > 2:42:28the country is lumbered in to have this for an extra six years.
2:42:28 > 2:42:31Like, and there's people my age in this country now who are just
2:42:31 > 2:42:33graduating uni, have already graduated,
2:42:33 > 2:42:36and they're just looking at this bleak, black hole in front of them.
2:42:36 > 2:42:38There's no way to get out of it.
2:42:38 > 2:42:40That's a generation that's just probably,
2:42:40 > 2:42:45- just been lost from this whole mess that's been created.- Francis Maude.
2:42:45 > 2:42:49Well, I have children of your age and I don't want them
2:42:49 > 2:42:54and their children, and generations to come to have to bear,
2:42:54 > 2:42:58pick up the tab for our failure to deal with the deficit
2:42:58 > 2:43:00that we inherited.
2:43:00 > 2:43:03So we have to do these difficult things, and is painful,
2:43:03 > 2:43:06and there's no way of doing this in a way that protects
2:43:06 > 2:43:09everyone from the effects of it.
2:43:09 > 2:43:13We, it started with the biggest budget deficit
2:43:13 > 2:43:15of any country in the developed world.
2:43:15 > 2:43:16We've cut it by a quarter.
2:43:16 > 2:43:19It's continuing to fall, we need to do more.
2:43:19 > 2:43:24And the heaviest burden has to be carried by those
2:43:24 > 2:43:28- who are the richest and that is happening...- They're not.
2:43:28 > 2:43:31- I'm sorry, Andy, but it simply is the case.- So, why did you cut...?
2:43:31 > 2:43:32Read what the IFS has said today.
2:43:32 > 2:43:35I have done and they absolutely bear out that the heaviest burden
2:43:35 > 2:43:37is carried by the richest.
2:43:37 > 2:43:39Why did you go against the...?
2:43:39 > 2:43:42- DAVID DIMBLEBY CLEARS HIS THROAT - ..and it's right that it should be the case...
2:43:42 > 2:43:46Why did you change your mind, then and then not impose the mansion tax?
2:43:46 > 2:43:49APPLAUSE
2:43:52 > 2:43:54Just to pick up that point,
2:43:54 > 2:43:59we have already increased the rate of stamp duty on the largest houses,
2:43:59 > 2:44:02raised it considerably above what Labour put in place.
2:44:02 > 2:44:04Just this stuff about the top rate of tax,
2:44:04 > 2:44:08you know, Labour went for 13 years in government
2:44:08 > 2:44:10with a top rate of tax of 40%.
2:44:10 > 2:44:13For the last three weeks that they were in government,
2:44:13 > 2:44:16there was a top rate of tax of 50p.
2:44:16 > 2:44:19And the tax yield fell, actually -
2:44:19 > 2:44:23from the people earning over £1 million a year,
2:44:23 > 2:44:29the amount of tax they paid fell by £7 billion.
2:44:29 > 2:44:31So that actually meant
2:44:31 > 2:44:34that because of that pure piece of political posturing
2:44:34 > 2:44:37in the dying days of a failed government,
2:44:37 > 2:44:41actually, the burden on the rest of the taxpayers rose.
2:44:41 > 2:44:43That's not the right thing to do.
2:44:43 > 2:44:44OK, the woman here on the right.
2:44:44 > 2:44:46APPLAUSE
2:44:46 > 2:44:50Do you not think if we're constantly highering the taxes
2:44:50 > 2:44:53for the high earners, then we're highering benefits as well,
2:44:53 > 2:44:55so those who aren't earning are getting more benefits
2:44:55 > 2:44:57and those who are working are getting less money.
2:44:57 > 2:45:00You're in danger of sort of promoting being on benefits.
2:45:00 > 2:45:03I know my family - my dad would be better off not working,
2:45:03 > 2:45:04he'd get more money from benefits.
2:45:04 > 2:45:07That's not promoting people to go out and get work.
2:45:07 > 2:45:09- He'd be better off on benefits? - Yeah, he would.
2:45:09 > 2:45:11Sleeping with the curtains drawn?
2:45:11 > 2:45:13In terms of what he had in his bank account, yeah, he would.
2:45:13 > 2:45:16- I don't think that's right.- OK.- It's not promoting people going to work.
2:45:16 > 2:45:19That's why we're reforming the welfare system.
2:45:19 > 2:45:21Nobody wants to support people who are playing the system.
2:45:21 > 2:45:24But what this is doing is this blanket approach...
2:45:24 > 2:45:26And many of the benefits people get,
2:45:26 > 2:45:28like council tax benefit, housing benefit,
2:45:28 > 2:45:31these are people who are working who get these benefits.
2:45:31 > 2:45:33George Osborne is running this line
2:45:33 > 2:45:35that everyone who claims a benefit is bad.
2:45:35 > 2:45:37These are people who work hard, try their best.
2:45:37 > 2:45:39That bit of help keeps them going
2:45:39 > 2:45:42and taking it away really kind of is quite cruel, to be honest.
2:45:42 > 2:45:47Andy, the overwhelming majority of people on benefits will actually...
2:45:47 > 2:45:50If they're working, they will benefit
2:45:50 > 2:45:53from the rise in the personal tax threshold,
2:45:53 > 2:45:55which is a total coalition commitment,
2:45:55 > 2:45:58and we've raised it way above anything Labour did.
2:45:58 > 2:46:01What you called political posturing, the 50p tax rate,
2:46:01 > 2:46:05the reduction of that to 45p will give millionaires
2:46:05 > 2:46:07£100,000 tax break next April.
2:46:07 > 2:46:10How can you possibly justify that?
2:46:10 > 2:46:11Because you had 13 years in power...
2:46:11 > 2:46:13How can you justify never having done it yourself?
2:46:13 > 2:46:15You had 13 years in power and never did it,
2:46:15 > 2:46:17until the last three weeks, as he said.
2:46:17 > 2:46:20You may have noticed, David, there was a big change...
2:46:20 > 2:46:22APPLAUSE Lionel Barber. I'll come back.
2:46:22 > 2:46:25- There was a big change in the world economy.- Lionel Barber.
2:46:25 > 2:46:27- You may have noticed it. - Lionel Barber.
2:46:27 > 2:46:28Are we in this together?
2:46:28 > 2:46:34In one sense, you bet, because we're all in a huge hole.
2:46:34 > 2:46:37The hole we inherited from the Labour Government,
2:46:37 > 2:46:43in terms of this vast, vast hole in public finances.
2:46:43 > 2:46:47But on a more serious note, I agree with Andy. We're not.
2:46:47 > 2:46:52We're not in this fully together, because the poor,
2:46:52 > 2:46:56those out of work, those who are receiving allowances,
2:46:56 > 2:46:59even though they're working, even short-time working,
2:46:59 > 2:47:01they're having to bear a very heavy price
2:47:01 > 2:47:04and I'm talking about the welfare cuts.
2:47:04 > 2:47:07They're not being uprated in terms of inflation.
2:47:07 > 2:47:08The rich, yes, they are losing
2:47:08 > 2:47:12some of the tax benefits on their pension contributions,
2:47:12 > 2:47:17but George Osborne made a very serious political error
2:47:17 > 2:47:21when he reduced the highest rate of income tax in this country.
2:47:21 > 2:47:24I say that because it is not proven in any way
2:47:24 > 2:47:28that this was going to create jobs or foster investment.
2:47:28 > 2:47:31You could have kept it at 50p and then you would have had
2:47:31 > 2:47:35a much more powerful message to everybody in this country
2:47:35 > 2:47:38that we really are in it together.
2:47:38 > 2:47:40Do you believe, as some of the people
2:47:40 > 2:47:41who write in your newspaper say,
2:47:41 > 2:47:44and I assume you agree with what they say,
2:47:44 > 2:47:46that the proper thing the Government should do
2:47:46 > 2:47:48is get the economy moving by pumping much more money...
2:47:48 > 2:47:52I think Skidelsky was saying £100 billion of extra spending.
2:47:52 > 2:47:53Do you want to see that?
2:47:53 > 2:47:56You're suggesting that we are all Keynesians now?
2:47:56 > 2:47:57Well, not quite, David.
2:47:57 > 2:48:01The fact is we have a huge budget deficit.
2:48:01 > 2:48:04It's much bigger than most European countries.
2:48:04 > 2:48:09If we were to change the fiscal policy as it stands,
2:48:09 > 2:48:13we would risk losing the confidence of the financial markets, which...
2:48:13 > 2:48:16Basically, they've given us benefit of the doubt.
2:48:16 > 2:48:20Interest rates would likely rise, borrowing costs would rise
2:48:20 > 2:48:22and we'd be in an even bigger hole.
2:48:22 > 2:48:24Leanne Wood?
2:48:24 > 2:48:27I don't think we are all in this together.
2:48:27 > 2:48:32In Liverpool, three times as many people this year
2:48:32 > 2:48:36will be fed by a food bank than was the case last year.
2:48:36 > 2:48:40And throughout the United Kingdom, 200,000 people
2:48:40 > 2:48:42will be fed by food banks next year.
2:48:42 > 2:48:45That's the modern-day soup kitchen.
2:48:45 > 2:48:49How have we found ourselves in this situation in 2012
2:48:49 > 2:48:52in what's the fourth or fifth richest economy in the world?
2:48:52 > 2:48:54I just don't understand.
2:48:54 > 2:48:59For you to say, Francis Maude, that the highest earners
2:48:59 > 2:49:04are bearing as much of the burden of this as the lowest income,
2:49:04 > 2:49:09I have to dispute that, because a £5 cut to somebody on benefits
2:49:09 > 2:49:12makes a much bigger impact on their life
2:49:12 > 2:49:15than a £1,000 cut to a millionaire.
2:49:15 > 2:49:17And that's the reality of the situation.
2:49:20 > 2:49:23The woman up...
2:49:23 > 2:49:24The woman up there. Yes, you.
2:49:24 > 2:49:28I think what the general public object to mainly
2:49:28 > 2:49:30is the use of the phrase, "We're all in this together,"
2:49:30 > 2:49:32when we all know we're not.
2:49:32 > 2:49:34Personally, I'd rather you said,
2:49:34 > 2:49:37"This is really hard, you going to have to deal with it,"
2:49:37 > 2:49:38rather than trying...
2:49:38 > 2:49:41It's like you think we're stupid - by saying,
2:49:41 > 2:49:43"We're all in it together," we're going to believe it
2:49:43 > 2:49:46and say, "Oh, yes," when we know we're not all in it together.
2:49:46 > 2:49:48It is not the same, like Leanne just said.
2:49:48 > 2:49:52It's the use of these tag lines that is infuriating.
2:49:52 > 2:49:57It is an assumption that Joe Public will buy it, when we don't buy it.
2:49:57 > 2:49:59- We're not in it together. - No, you're right.- Francis Maude?
2:49:59 > 2:50:03- There's a question...- No, Leanne, let Francis reply to that.
2:50:03 > 2:50:07My point is not that it is the same for everybody, it clearly isn't.
2:50:07 > 2:50:08You can't do things
2:50:08 > 2:50:11which will have exactly the same effect on everybody.
2:50:11 > 2:50:13But, actually, the point we're making
2:50:13 > 2:50:15is that everyone has to carry some of the pain.
2:50:15 > 2:50:18And, you know, we didn't want to be in this position,
2:50:18 > 2:50:20we didn't want to be in a position
2:50:20 > 2:50:22where we had an economy that hasn't picked up,
2:50:22 > 2:50:24the Office for Budget Responsibility...
2:50:24 > 2:50:26- ANDY BURNHAM:- Whose fault is that?
2:50:26 > 2:50:28The Office for Budget Responsibility
2:50:28 > 2:50:31say that it is because of the loss of trade in the Eurozone.
2:50:31 > 2:50:34So now you're in, it's what's going on in the world economy,
2:50:34 > 2:50:37and when we were in, it was all our fault? It's very...
2:50:37 > 2:50:38APPLAUSE
2:50:38 > 2:50:40Andy. Andy, since you mention it...
2:50:40 > 2:50:44You may have noticed there is a worldwide crash.
2:50:44 > 2:50:46Andy, since you mention it, I'll say what was your fault,
2:50:46 > 2:50:48for which you've not said sorry -
2:50:48 > 2:50:53you actually ran up the biggest budget deficit in the world.
2:50:53 > 2:50:55You were Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
2:50:55 > 2:50:58It was lower before the crash, and you know that's true.
2:50:58 > 2:51:02You left the biggest overdraft, you maxed out the credit card
2:51:02 > 2:51:06and it is your children and my children and their grandchildren
2:51:06 > 2:51:10who are going to be picking up the tab for it for generations to come.
2:51:10 > 2:51:12Man in the second row from the back there.
2:51:12 > 2:51:15Undoubtedly, if you take a long-term view,
2:51:15 > 2:51:17the optimum corporation tax and income tax rate
2:51:17 > 2:51:19doesn't necessarily have to be higher.
2:51:19 > 2:51:22If you reduce it, you give rich people an incentive
2:51:22 > 2:51:26to remain in the country and companies a reason to invest.
2:51:26 > 2:51:32It's likely that by decreasing tax rates you can improve HMRC's income.
2:51:32 > 2:51:34That's a very reasonable view
2:51:34 > 2:51:37and for Andy Burnham to say, "We'll stick at 50% for income tax,"
2:51:37 > 2:51:40is not necessarily the best approach to take.
2:51:40 > 2:51:42Well, he hasn't said that, actually.
2:51:42 > 2:51:44Andy, would you introduce the 50% rate?
2:51:44 > 2:51:46If Labour had done yesterday's statement,
2:51:46 > 2:51:49we would have reintroduced the 50p rate from next April,
2:51:49 > 2:51:53because it is just not fair to hit the lowest paid in this country...
2:51:53 > 2:51:56- When you're re-elected... - One second. One second.
2:51:56 > 2:51:59..when you a huge amount of money and a tax break
2:51:59 > 2:52:00to the highest earners.
2:52:00 > 2:52:02Lionel is right - this has to mean what it says
2:52:02 > 2:52:06and the Government's failure to do that is, quite frankly, immoral.
2:52:06 > 2:52:08- Would you reintroduce it, Andy? - I just said we would!
2:52:08 > 2:52:11- If we were doing that statement... - At the next election?
2:52:11 > 2:52:12If you win the next election?
2:52:12 > 2:52:15If we'd done that statement, we would've reintroduced it.
2:52:15 > 2:52:17You can't say yes or no.
2:52:17 > 2:52:20I want to go over to the far right, over there. Yes?
2:52:20 > 2:52:25The kids in this city are going to be going hungry
2:52:25 > 2:52:27because of these cuts.
2:52:27 > 2:52:33And you cannot ever say that cuts in tax for some rich person,
2:52:33 > 2:52:37who's never had to budget for the food for their kids,
2:52:37 > 2:52:41for their kids' shoes, is anything like comparable.
2:52:41 > 2:52:46Our kids are entitled to enough food to live decently.
2:52:46 > 2:52:48They're entitled to warmth in the winter.
2:52:48 > 2:52:54And your Government is taking that directly from the kids.
2:52:54 > 2:52:55And the kids are going to suffer!
2:52:55 > 2:52:57APPLAUSE
2:53:01 > 2:53:04And the person there in grey. In the grey pullover.
2:53:04 > 2:53:07Was it right for the Government to cut another penny
2:53:07 > 2:53:12off corporation tax, when the level of taxation is already
2:53:12 > 2:53:16one of the lowest in the Western world for company taxation?
2:53:16 > 2:53:19And we have not talked about tax avoidance yet, have we?
2:53:19 > 2:53:21Tax avoidance and tax evasion.
2:53:21 > 2:53:23We'll come to that maybe later on. Lionel Barber.
2:53:23 > 2:53:26We need to bring companies to this country,
2:53:26 > 2:53:29people who are going to invest and create jobs.
2:53:29 > 2:53:31There is a lot of competition,
2:53:31 > 2:53:34a lot of places where people, countries,
2:53:34 > 2:53:36are trying to attract those corporations.
2:53:36 > 2:53:40And, in that sense, I think to go for your comparative advantage,
2:53:40 > 2:53:42it was a good move, it was an important signal.
2:53:42 > 2:53:45But when you have a corporation tax of 21%,
2:53:45 > 2:53:48it would be very good if the companies actually paid it.
2:53:48 > 2:53:49- LEANNE WOOD:- Yeah, yeah.
2:53:52 > 2:53:55I'm going to move on, because we've had quarter of an hour on that
2:53:55 > 2:53:58and we'll come back, perhaps, to the economy a bit later.
2:53:58 > 2:54:00I want to question from Alison Piers.
2:54:00 > 2:54:03Before I do, remember you can join in this debate,
2:54:03 > 2:54:06as always, on Twitter. Our hashtag - #bbcqt.
2:54:06 > 2:54:10Our Twitter panellist tonight is the Times columnist Hugo Rifkind,
2:54:10 > 2:54:13and you can follow him on the @BBCExtraGuest account.
2:54:13 > 2:54:15Or you can text your comments,
2:54:15 > 2:54:19press the red button to see what others are saying.
2:54:19 > 2:54:21I see that the Pope is starting tweeting soon,
2:54:21 > 2:54:24so we'll get infallible comments from that source.
2:54:24 > 2:54:25Ex cathedra.
2:54:25 > 2:54:27Alison Piers, please.
2:54:28 > 2:54:30How does the Government plan to ensure
2:54:30 > 2:54:34that care and compassion is restored back into the NHS?
2:54:34 > 2:54:37"How does the Government plan to restore care and compassion...?"
2:54:37 > 2:54:39In light of a speech
2:54:39 > 2:54:43that the new Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, made, I think.
2:54:43 > 2:54:47Which was he said that in places in NHS hospitals,
2:54:47 > 2:54:51"where there should be compassion, we find the opposite -
2:54:51 > 2:54:54"a coldness, resentment, indifference, even contempt.
2:54:54 > 2:54:57"And in the worst cases, something even darker,
2:54:57 > 2:55:00"a kind of normalisation of cruelty,
2:55:00 > 2:55:03"where the unacceptable is legitimised
2:55:03 > 2:55:05"and the callous becomes mundane."
2:55:05 > 2:55:08He said that last Thursday.
2:55:08 > 2:55:10Andy Burnham, you're a shadow Secretary of State.
2:55:10 > 2:55:15- Did you recognise the description of Jeremy Hunt, of some nursing?- I do.
2:55:15 > 2:55:19There are recurrent stories of older people lost in acute hospitals,
2:55:19 > 2:55:22disorientated, dehydrated.
2:55:22 > 2:55:25I was Health Secretary when the stuff at Mid Staffs Hospital
2:55:25 > 2:55:27was happening and I had to reflect very, very carefully on all this.
2:55:27 > 2:55:30I think there are some nurses who let down the profession,
2:55:30 > 2:55:34but the vast majority don't, they do a fantastic job.
2:55:34 > 2:55:36Their job is made harder by people like me at times
2:55:36 > 2:55:38giving them too much paperwork.
2:55:38 > 2:55:40Sometimes managers cut the front line
2:55:40 > 2:55:42but protect management jobs, and that's not fair.
2:55:42 > 2:55:45But it goes far deeper than all of this.
2:55:45 > 2:55:48I went work shadowing and I shadowed a nurse in the Royal Derby
2:55:48 > 2:55:50and I asked her this question,
2:55:50 > 2:55:52"Why do we hear these stories coming back?"
2:55:52 > 2:55:55And she said to me... The best answer she could give me was,
2:55:55 > 2:55:57when she trained 10 or 20 years ago,
2:55:57 > 2:56:01they saw people on the ward after surgery in their 60s or 70s.
2:56:01 > 2:56:03She said, "Now, we see lots of older people
2:56:03 > 2:56:05"in their 80s or 90s after major surgery.
2:56:05 > 2:56:08"And it's the complex job of caring for those people,
2:56:08 > 2:56:11"it's just so different to what we did when we trained."
2:56:11 > 2:56:13And those pressures are huge -
2:56:13 > 2:56:16the ageing society really is putting intense pressure
2:56:16 > 2:56:18on the NHS front line.
2:56:18 > 2:56:20And those older people have social care needs,
2:56:20 > 2:56:22mental health care needs, physical needs,
2:56:22 > 2:56:25and it's difficult to cater for all of that in hospitals
2:56:25 > 2:56:28that, quite honestly, were designed for the 20th century, not the 21st.
2:56:28 > 2:56:31So it is a complex question. And it really needs...
2:56:31 > 2:56:34Any single thing you would like to see done about it?
2:56:34 > 2:56:36Let me give you some specifics on the here and now.
2:56:36 > 2:56:37Jeremy Hunt says all of this,
2:56:37 > 2:56:42his Government has cut 7,000 nurses from the NHS front line.
2:56:42 > 2:56:45And, as I proved this week, contrary to the pledge they've made,
2:56:45 > 2:56:48they've cut the NHS in real terms.
2:56:48 > 2:56:50The CQC, the Care Quality Commission,
2:56:50 > 2:56:53said recently that 16% of hospitals in England
2:56:53 > 2:56:56do not have adequate staffing levels.
2:56:56 > 2:56:58Just think about that statement for one minute -
2:56:58 > 2:57:0016% are running below safe staffing levels.
2:57:00 > 2:57:02These are the things he should be addressing,
2:57:02 > 2:57:05rather than making grand statements and blaming nurses.
2:57:05 > 2:57:07He should be dealing with those things,
2:57:07 > 2:57:10supporting the NHS front line so it can give the best quality of care
2:57:10 > 2:57:13in the current circumstances.
2:57:13 > 2:57:15Leanne Wood.
2:57:19 > 2:57:23The Royal College of Nursing have supported the campaign
2:57:23 > 2:57:25to promote dignity in the NHS,
2:57:25 > 2:57:29and I think that's something worth supporting.
2:57:29 > 2:57:31But the fear is, with more cutbacks,
2:57:31 > 2:57:34that this is a problem that's going to become worse.
2:57:34 > 2:57:36There are lots of pressures on nurses
2:57:36 > 2:57:39and medical staff to reach targets.
2:57:39 > 2:57:41There are also limited resources.
2:57:41 > 2:57:45I know, for example, that medical staff have complained
2:57:45 > 2:57:48about shortages of bedding and things like that.
2:57:48 > 2:57:50And staff can feel harassed and pressured
2:57:50 > 2:57:55when there are long queues in A&E and all those sorts of things.
2:57:55 > 2:57:57All of that is reality,
2:57:57 > 2:58:02but none of it is to excuse bad and cruel practice.
2:58:02 > 2:58:05I think one of the things that could help
2:58:05 > 2:58:09is much more linking up between health services and social services,
2:58:09 > 2:58:12to ensure that people's whole needs are met,
2:58:12 > 2:58:16so that people are not just looked at as a medical problem
2:58:16 > 2:58:18but their social needs are addressed, too.
2:58:18 > 2:58:21Do you recognise the description of some nurses
2:58:21 > 2:58:24as "lacking compassion" and "lacking care" for their patients?
2:58:24 > 2:58:27I personally haven't had any experience of anybody...
2:58:27 > 2:58:31But Wales is where the Government's been cutting back on the NHS.
2:58:31 > 2:58:34- There's been cutbacks... - Have you got experience of that?
2:58:34 > 2:58:37No, not personally, but I can't say it doesn't happen either.
2:58:37 > 2:58:39The man in the second row there.
2:58:39 > 2:58:41I'd just like to say, I think this Government
2:58:41 > 2:58:43is determined to bring in privatisation
2:58:43 > 2:58:44of the National Health Service
2:58:44 > 2:58:46and will systematically reduce the standards
2:58:46 > 2:58:50and the care until the rest of the country believes
2:58:50 > 2:58:53the claptrap that they're feeding us, so they can bring in their chums
2:58:53 > 2:58:57from all these organisations that are members of various boards.
2:58:57 > 2:59:00These people will come in and we will be turning up at Casualty
2:59:00 > 2:59:02with a credit card in our hands,
2:59:02 > 2:59:04and our kids' health care will be absolutely abysmal
2:59:04 > 2:59:06if you're not in the top bracket.
2:59:06 > 2:59:08Tim Farron, is that a fair...?
2:59:08 > 2:59:09- LEANNE WOOD:- Can I just...?
2:59:09 > 2:59:12Hold on a second, I'll come back to you.
2:59:12 > 2:59:15Is that a fair description of coalition policy on health?
2:59:15 > 2:59:16I don't think it is.
2:59:16 > 2:59:19The biggest threat the private sector poses
2:59:19 > 2:59:22to the National Health Service is the PFI legacy we've inherited.
2:59:22 > 2:59:25If you look at the average NHS Trust up and down this country,
2:59:25 > 2:59:27why are they struggling financially?
2:59:27 > 2:59:30It's cos one pound in five is going to the bankers,
2:59:30 > 2:59:32rather than on to the ward. That's an outrage.
2:59:32 > 2:59:34That is the legacy we inherited.
2:59:34 > 2:59:37To answer the question that Alison asked,
2:59:37 > 2:59:39I think, actually, it's a fairly harsh description
2:59:39 > 2:59:43of the overwhelming majority of nurses in this country.
2:59:43 > 2:59:47But, in my personal experience,
2:59:47 > 2:59:51my mum passed away at far too early an age from cancer.
2:59:51 > 2:59:54The care that she received was outstanding,
2:59:54 > 2:59:57in an NHS hospital a few miles north of here in Preston.
2:59:57 > 3:00:01So my personal experience of the NHS is outstanding,
3:00:01 > 3:00:04and the compassion that I see from nurses is also outstanding.
3:00:04 > 3:00:09But I can't ignore the evidence in my postbag, as a constituency MP,
3:00:09 > 3:00:13that there are instances, from time to time, of a complete lack of that.
3:00:13 > 3:00:15Or the MP, the Labour MP, Ann Clwyd,
3:00:15 > 3:00:18who described her husband "dying like a battery hen."
3:00:18 > 3:00:19It was really moving.
3:00:19 > 3:00:23She had the last question in Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday.
3:00:23 > 3:00:26It was deeply moving to watch that and my heart went out to her.
3:00:26 > 3:00:29- There are plenty of people like that.- How do you prevent that?
3:00:29 > 3:00:33There are two quick analyses, I guess -
3:00:33 > 3:00:35one is it was absolutely right
3:00:35 > 3:00:37to move nursing into being a graduate profession.
3:00:37 > 3:00:39Absolutely right.
3:00:39 > 3:00:41But what a lot of nurses tell me
3:00:41 > 3:00:45is that there is an awful lot of emphasis on the clinical stuff,
3:00:45 > 3:00:47absolutely right, and a bit less emphasis
3:00:47 > 3:00:50than there ought to have been on the human stuff.
3:00:50 > 3:00:52The other thing is, I think Leanne mentioned it,
3:00:52 > 3:00:56if you have a culture within the NHS of box-ticking
3:00:56 > 3:00:58and reaching targets all the time,
3:00:58 > 3:01:01then your ability to actually provide those soft skills,
3:01:01 > 3:01:04to make sure that someone with dementia actually eats, for example,
3:01:04 > 3:01:06is hugely reduced.
3:01:06 > 3:01:08There is no league table for compassion.
3:01:08 > 3:01:10Therefore, I'm afraid, often that falls off.
3:01:10 > 3:01:13Scrapping the target culture is the critical answer.
3:01:13 > 3:01:15OK. APPLAUSE
3:01:15 > 3:01:17Do you want to come back on that?
3:01:18 > 3:01:22I would rather see one pound in every five go to the PFI
3:01:22 > 3:01:24than two pound in every five going to the shareholders.
3:01:24 > 3:01:27Every nationalised industry in this country is a disaster.
3:01:27 > 3:01:30Look at your gas, look at your railways, everything.
3:01:30 > 3:01:32Absolutely. We should never have sold them off!
3:01:32 > 3:01:33No, exactly.
3:01:33 > 3:01:37The National Health Service is the last thing we've got to nationalise.
3:01:37 > 3:01:39Then it'd be a complete hat-trick for...
3:01:39 > 3:01:41well, our fellows in the blue ties.
3:01:41 > 3:01:43- It's happening!- Lionel Barber.
3:01:43 > 3:01:46- Lionel Barber.- Andy has described very eloquently
3:01:46 > 3:01:47the pressures in hospitals,
3:01:47 > 3:01:50particularly when dealing with an ageing population.
3:01:50 > 3:01:55The fact is, this week, the chief nursing officer described
3:01:55 > 3:01:59nursing care standards in hospitals as very poor.
3:01:59 > 3:02:02And hospitals in England are said to be now bursting.
3:02:02 > 3:02:05So there is a real problem. How are we going to treat it?
3:02:05 > 3:02:08Well, not by pouring money at it,
3:02:08 > 3:02:11not by adopting a box-ticking culture.
3:02:11 > 3:02:14We've poured lots of money into the National Health Service
3:02:14 > 3:02:15over the last ten years.
3:02:15 > 3:02:19Part of the problem is management, it's about leadership.
3:02:19 > 3:02:21It's about expecting high standards
3:02:21 > 3:02:24and finding ways to take off the pressure
3:02:24 > 3:02:28from people who are dealing with very, very difficult problems
3:02:28 > 3:02:32with patients, in very difficult hours and circumstances.
3:02:32 > 3:02:34OK. I want to... I think you've spoken already,
3:02:34 > 3:02:36I'd like to come to anyone who hasn't.
3:02:36 > 3:02:39I'll come to you, and then to Francis Maude.
3:02:39 > 3:02:43My mum had dementia, and in 1999, she was in two hospital wards.
3:02:43 > 3:02:46One was excellent and one was quite poor.
3:02:46 > 3:02:49So we as a family decided that we wouldn't allow her
3:02:49 > 3:02:50to stay in hospital on her own,
3:02:50 > 3:02:53so we were there from morning till bedtime,
3:02:53 > 3:02:57to make sure she did get fed and she was looked after properly.
3:02:57 > 3:02:58I think the problem is,
3:02:58 > 3:03:01we learnt as a family how to deal with my mum over the years.
3:03:01 > 3:03:06It's hard to explain, but you need to have that sort of understanding.
3:03:06 > 3:03:08It doesn't come to you.
3:03:08 > 3:03:11It's not something that you can pick up in a hospital ward.
3:03:11 > 3:03:13You need to have a real understanding.
3:03:13 > 3:03:15I think it's partly down to training as well.
3:03:15 > 3:03:18I mean, compassion is compassion, I understand that.
3:03:18 > 3:03:21But you do need extra training to look after the elderly.
3:03:21 > 3:03:23- Francis Maude.- Well, I think it's...
3:03:23 > 3:03:26I think Tim is in the right of it, actually.
3:03:26 > 3:03:30I think overwhelmingly, most nurses are compassionate.
3:03:30 > 3:03:32I don't have any doubt about that at all.
3:03:32 > 3:03:35But that there are examples of
3:03:35 > 3:03:37a lack of that kind of human kindness
3:03:37 > 3:03:40and compassion is undoubtedly the case.
3:03:40 > 3:03:43You mentioned the Ann Clywd experience, and Tim's right,
3:03:43 > 3:03:48she was very, very moving in the House of Commons earlier this week.
3:03:48 > 3:03:54I think anyone who is a constituency MP will have had letters
3:03:54 > 3:03:57from patients and relatives of patients,
3:03:57 > 3:03:59concerned about the basic care.
3:03:59 > 3:04:02It's very rarely complaints about the medical care,
3:04:02 > 3:04:06it's about the basic care. How do you change that?
3:04:06 > 3:04:11Well, I think we've had a culture in the NHS which is too much about
3:04:11 > 3:04:15bureaucracy and administration and not enough about leadership.
3:04:15 > 3:04:19And not enough about asking patients what their experience was.
3:04:19 > 3:04:22And I think one of the things that Jeremy Hunt's committed to do
3:04:22 > 3:04:25is enable patients in all hospitals
3:04:25 > 3:04:29to independently feed in their reactions.
3:04:29 > 3:04:32Would you recommend this hospital to your family and friends?
3:04:32 > 3:04:36I think a lot of the times when there is a culture in the hospital
3:04:36 > 3:04:41of this lack of compassion, a lack of kindness,
3:04:41 > 3:04:44actually I don't think the people in the hospital will know about it.
3:04:44 > 3:04:47If you start to surface that, then I think people will respond.
3:04:47 > 3:04:51Most people aren't unkind, most people want to do the right thing,
3:04:51 > 3:04:53want to look after patients right,
3:04:53 > 3:04:57and may just not know that actually, that isn't coming across.
3:04:57 > 3:05:01Just before we... Have we got any nurses here who want to come in?
3:05:01 > 3:05:05- Are you a nurse?- Yes. Three of the panel have mentioned leadership
3:05:05 > 3:05:08as being critical in terms of having the right standards,
3:05:08 > 3:05:11but I think Andy's point about the reduction in numbers,
3:05:11 > 3:05:14it tends to be the experienced, more qualified,
3:05:14 > 3:05:17higher-grade nursing posts that are going.
3:05:17 > 3:05:20And that's one of the challenges about maintaining those standards,
3:05:20 > 3:05:23but care and compassion and kindness costs nothing.
3:05:23 > 3:05:27- Where do you nurse?- I've retired, but I'm still a qualified nurse.
3:05:27 > 3:05:31There was another nurse with their hand up there, yes, the person there?
3:05:31 > 3:05:33I agree that the ageing population
3:05:33 > 3:05:36has meant that care has become more complex,
3:05:36 > 3:05:40but that's not something that the nursing staff complain of.
3:05:40 > 3:05:44They do complain about the two things that Andy touched upon,
3:05:44 > 3:05:47which is the amount of paperwork that they have to go through
3:05:47 > 3:05:52and also, the lack of staff on the wards to support them.
3:05:52 > 3:05:57And particularly the paperwork does take away the time spent
3:05:57 > 3:06:01being able to deliver good quality basic nursing care.
3:06:01 > 3:06:03What about the issue of care and compassion
3:06:03 > 3:06:05that you asked in your question?
3:06:05 > 3:06:07How would you like to see that restored?
3:06:07 > 3:06:09Um, I think there's almost two elements to this.
3:06:09 > 3:06:12I think the care and compassion,
3:06:12 > 3:06:15personally, I think that tends to be lacking
3:06:15 > 3:06:18generally in society at the moment and I think that that is just
3:06:18 > 3:06:21naturally reflected in the profession.
3:06:21 > 3:06:25I think mostly with the... really looking at the paperwork
3:06:25 > 3:06:27and looking at the staffing levels.
3:06:27 > 3:06:29- Time to care, in other words. - Absolutely.
3:06:29 > 3:06:31And the man there in the middle, you, sir.
3:06:31 > 3:06:33I think what's disappointing
3:06:33 > 3:06:35is the way Jeremy Hunt's gone about doing this.
3:06:35 > 3:06:38There is a debate to be had about the NHS, definitely,
3:06:38 > 3:06:39but what Jeremy Hunt's done,
3:06:39 > 3:06:41like so many politicians, which is disappointing,
3:06:41 > 3:06:44is use an oblique approach to open up the debate,
3:06:44 > 3:06:46as someone at the front said. Using a sideways attack,
3:06:46 > 3:06:49he is trying to introduce it into the public.
3:06:49 > 3:06:52- That's quite disappointing.- I think that's exactly what he's doing.
3:06:52 > 3:06:55Like Michael Gove just blames it all on the teachers,
3:06:55 > 3:06:58Jeremy Hunt's doing the same thing, it's all about the staff,
3:06:58 > 3:06:59it's nothing to do with them.
3:06:59 > 3:07:02Let's remember, they promised no top-down reorganisation.
3:07:02 > 3:07:05They brought forward the biggest ever in the history of the NHS.
3:07:05 > 3:07:08They promised funding increases, they've cut it in real terms.
3:07:08 > 3:07:11They promised no hospital closures, they're closing everywhere.
3:07:11 > 3:07:14This prime minister was elected on his promises on the back of the NHS
3:07:14 > 3:07:16and he's completely and utterly betrayed it.
3:07:16 > 3:07:19I thought they'd abandoned the reorganisation of the NHS.
3:07:19 > 3:07:21No, sadly, it's coming through. And as he said,
3:07:21 > 3:07:26this is taking the NHS to a complete free-market approach to healthcare.
3:07:26 > 3:07:30We celebrated our NHS at the opening ceremony of our Olympic Games
3:07:30 > 3:07:33because people believe in its values, people before profit.
3:07:33 > 3:07:37The bill they put through Parliament just basically destroys all of that.
3:07:37 > 3:07:40And it's the saddest thing. We will carry on fighting it,
3:07:40 > 3:07:43but the NHS will not stand two terms of this government.
3:07:43 > 3:07:44Andy Burnham, wasn't it...?
3:07:44 > 3:07:46APPLAUSE
3:07:50 > 3:07:52Wasn't it you who said
3:07:52 > 3:07:55it's irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms?
3:07:55 > 3:07:56Yes, and you know why?
3:07:56 > 3:08:00I said it should be frozen in real terms because any...
3:08:00 > 3:08:03It would not make sense to give the NHS an increase
3:08:03 > 3:08:06if the way you paid for that was hollowing out council budgets.
3:08:06 > 3:08:09Leanne is absolutely right about that, these are essentially
3:08:09 > 3:08:11one system now, that's the way I want to see it,
3:08:11 > 3:08:13full integration of health and social care.
3:08:13 > 3:08:17The reason why our hospitals are full, as Lionel said,
3:08:17 > 3:08:19is because they can't discharge any more,
3:08:19 > 3:08:21there's no support in the community,
3:08:21 > 3:08:23so they're running at 90% capacity.
3:08:23 > 3:08:26You've got to give the money to social care too.
3:08:26 > 3:08:29I said have a balanced approach to giving the money to the NHS
3:08:29 > 3:08:33and to social care but this government has actually cut.
3:08:33 > 3:08:35Very briefly, Francis, then Leanne.
3:08:36 > 3:08:40Just on the spending, the first year was,
3:08:40 > 3:08:44of this government's spending on the NHS, those were your plans, Andy.
3:08:44 > 3:08:45No, let him answer.
3:08:45 > 3:08:48We've increased it since then and we will continue to increase it.
3:08:48 > 3:08:52You said that was irresponsible, and we know you mean it because you...
3:08:52 > 3:08:56The chair of the UK Statistics Authority, Andrew Dilnot,
3:08:56 > 3:08:59wrote to me this week and said you cannot carry on saying that
3:08:59 > 3:09:01because you have cut it.
3:09:01 > 3:09:04So please do not repeat that falsehood on the television tonight.
3:09:04 > 3:09:06We're increasing it from what you left.
3:09:06 > 3:09:08APPLAUSE
3:09:08 > 3:09:10And let me remind you about the coalition agreement.
3:09:10 > 3:09:14"We will increase NHS spending in every year of this parliament,"
3:09:14 > 3:09:15you haven't done it.
3:09:15 > 3:09:19- Actually, we have.- You haven't. - We took your plans and increased it.
3:09:19 > 3:09:22Listen to what Andrew Dilnot said this week.
3:09:22 > 3:09:24OK, this is a sterile argument.
3:09:24 > 3:09:27If we want to know what Labour really thinks about it,
3:09:27 > 3:09:30we look at what Labour is doing in Wales.
3:09:30 > 3:09:35In Wales, Labour has cut spending on the NHS by 8%,
3:09:35 > 3:09:38not freezing it, not increasing it, cutting it.
3:09:38 > 3:09:40- Can I just say on this point... - A last point if you would.
3:09:40 > 3:09:44Your government has cut the Welsh Assembly's block grant,
3:09:44 > 3:09:48and that is why there has to be a cut to the NHS. Now...
3:09:48 > 3:09:49APPLAUSE
3:09:51 > 3:09:54What I would like to know is, how much the NHS in England
3:09:54 > 3:09:58is spending on paying back the PFI loans?
3:09:58 > 3:10:00We haven't gone down the PFI route in Wales,
3:10:00 > 3:10:03we've got a more independent health service in Wales,
3:10:03 > 3:10:07and that has meant there is more money about
3:10:07 > 3:10:09because we're not paying back the debt.
3:10:09 > 3:10:15- Your party introduced PFI into the NHS.- It was the Treasury minister.
3:10:15 > 3:10:17Do you regret introducing it?
3:10:17 > 3:10:21I think we won't wind back any further. No, I think we'll move on.
3:10:21 > 3:10:25Thank you, Leanne, for the points. We must go onto another question.
3:10:25 > 3:10:28This one is from Doreen Squires, please.
3:10:28 > 3:10:31Doreen Squires, where are you?
3:10:31 > 3:10:35Do the panel trust the press to regulate themselves?
3:10:35 > 3:10:38Do the panel trust the press to regulate themselves?
3:10:38 > 3:10:41Lionel Barber, you've been in Downing Street today
3:10:41 > 3:10:45talking about how the press should control itself.
3:10:45 > 3:10:48Do you trust yourselves to regulate yourselves?
3:10:48 > 3:10:51Or should there be the law there?
3:10:51 > 3:10:54Now, David, you've always been a stickler for accuracy.
3:10:54 > 3:10:57So I think it should be pointed out that
3:10:57 > 3:10:59I was in Downing Street two days ago.
3:11:00 > 3:11:03But, the answer to your question is, yes,
3:11:03 > 3:11:06we do trust ourselves to go,
3:11:06 > 3:11:11to continue to have a form of self-regulation,
3:11:11 > 3:11:14independent regulation.
3:11:14 > 3:11:18We accept, and this didn't apply to the Financial Times,
3:11:18 > 3:11:21we deal with numbers and statistics
3:11:21 > 3:11:24and important things like that, so...
3:11:24 > 3:11:27The kind of behaviour that went on in certain
3:11:27 > 3:11:33sections of the press, notably criminal behaviour by one newspaper,
3:11:33 > 3:11:35is not something that I recognise.
3:11:35 > 3:11:38I'm not even sure whether some of my journalists
3:11:38 > 3:11:40would know how to hack a phone.
3:11:40 > 3:11:43What, in pursuit of fraud, you've never tried that?
3:11:43 > 3:11:45I certainly haven't tried it.
3:11:45 > 3:11:48- So you're not an investigative newspaper?- No, we very much are.
3:11:48 > 3:11:55And again, if you'd seen our expose of Deutsche Bank today, this week...
3:11:55 > 3:12:00It was a fascinating, fascinating, fascinating 2,000 word article...
3:12:00 > 3:12:03I'm sure we all turned to it first, at breakfast this morning,
3:12:03 > 3:12:04nothing else on our lips!
3:12:04 > 3:12:07..on mark-to-market accounting, but there we are, we'll leave that.
3:12:07 > 3:12:10There is a serious point that went on,
3:12:10 > 3:12:14there was a very serious discussion at Downing Street.
3:12:14 > 3:12:16All the editors were there,
3:12:16 > 3:12:20apart from the editor of the Daily Mail, who had a bereavement.
3:12:20 > 3:12:23But this, I've been an editor now seven years,
3:12:23 > 3:12:25I've never seen this.
3:12:25 > 3:12:28It was really an incredible achievement to herd
3:12:28 > 3:12:34that number of cats into one room and get them to agree huge sections,
3:12:34 > 3:12:3940 out of 47 recommendations of Leveson were adopted that day.
3:12:39 > 3:12:41We are going to embrace Leveson,
3:12:41 > 3:12:45and we are going to come up with a new form of regulation
3:12:45 > 3:12:49which is going to have serious powers for the new regulator
3:12:49 > 3:12:55to investigate newspapers, to enforce with fines if necessary.
3:12:55 > 3:12:58And I think this is a huge, important step forward.
3:12:58 > 3:13:01And I'd like to make one last point.
3:13:01 > 3:13:07One may question the Prime Minister's motives. What...
3:13:07 > 3:13:10Whether he really is so attached to the freedom of the press
3:13:10 > 3:13:14and free speech, or whether he was worried about the tabloid reaction
3:13:14 > 3:13:17if he supported a press law.
3:13:17 > 3:13:20I'm going to come down in favour of the Prime Minister,
3:13:20 > 3:13:23because he recognised that it is not in the interests of this country
3:13:23 > 3:13:30to have a media law, as in South Africa, Hungary, Zimbabwe.
3:13:30 > 3:13:33The world is watching us. We don't need a law.
3:13:33 > 3:13:34APPLAUSE
3:13:34 > 3:13:36OK.
3:13:39 > 3:13:40To which I just raise one point,
3:13:40 > 3:13:45all broadcasting in this country is done under the law.
3:13:45 > 3:13:47- Why not newspapers?- Now, we...
3:13:47 > 3:13:49You cannot broadcast on radio
3:13:49 > 3:13:51or television without a legal framework.
3:13:51 > 3:13:57You have an obligation to be impartial in your reporting.
3:13:57 > 3:14:00- Don't you?- We don't, not under the law. And we shouldn't,
3:14:00 > 3:14:04we never have had in the history of the press in this country.
3:14:04 > 3:14:07The last time the press was licensed in this country
3:14:07 > 3:14:09was more than 300 years ago.
3:14:09 > 3:14:13We don't want to go back to an inglorious revolution.
3:14:13 > 3:14:15OK, the man at the very back there. You, sir.
3:14:15 > 3:14:20Lionel says that the press trust the press to regulate themselves.
3:14:20 > 3:14:24But as a citizen, we all trusted the banks to regulate themselves,
3:14:24 > 3:14:27- and look how well that turned out. - Let's be clear...
3:14:27 > 3:14:28APPLAUSE
3:14:28 > 3:14:30Hold on, Lionel.
3:14:30 > 3:14:33The person right up there at the back there, I can see a hand.
3:14:33 > 3:14:39- There we are.- The press are regulating themselves, and failing.
3:14:39 > 3:14:43Broadcasters are regulated and they're failing.
3:14:43 > 3:14:47There's something wrong, there's something rotten,
3:14:47 > 3:14:50in what's going on. Why shouldn't the press have,
3:14:50 > 3:14:55why shouldn't the print press have an obligation to be impartial?
3:14:55 > 3:14:57Tim Farron.
3:14:57 > 3:15:01Just to pick up the point that was made at the back a moment ago.
3:15:01 > 3:15:04I think if the... Let's say, for example,
3:15:04 > 3:15:07there was a scandal involving the banks, for instance.
3:15:07 > 3:15:11Let's say, even MPs. Obviously that would never happen, but let's say.
3:15:11 > 3:15:12Let's say there was a scandal
3:15:12 > 3:15:15that affected the police force, for instance.
3:15:15 > 3:15:18And if after a judge-led enquiry it was recommended that
3:15:18 > 3:15:22there should be independent regulation of those outfits,
3:15:22 > 3:15:26and yet, those MPs or bankers or senior police officers said,
3:15:26 > 3:15:28"No, trust us to regulate ourselves,"
3:15:28 > 3:15:32Lionel and all the other editors would lay into those bodies,
3:15:32 > 3:15:34and quite rightly.
3:15:34 > 3:15:35It's important we recognise...
3:15:35 > 3:15:37APPLAUSE
3:15:37 > 3:15:40This is a city that knows better than most, sadly,
3:15:40 > 3:15:44what it's like to be at the sharp end of the abuse of media power.
3:15:44 > 3:15:48There is nothing illegal, sadly, about libelling 96 dead people.
3:15:48 > 3:15:51And that is one of the reasons, one of the examples that,
3:15:51 > 3:15:53when we get to the end of this process,
3:15:53 > 3:15:55we have to look those families in the eye.
3:15:55 > 3:15:59We have to look the family of Milly Dowler and of the McCanns,
3:15:59 > 3:16:02and all those other people who have been victims of press hacking
3:16:02 > 3:16:05in the eye and say, we have done something about this.
3:16:05 > 3:16:07I am very, very pleased the editors have got together
3:16:07 > 3:16:10and responded to Leveson as they have so far.
3:16:10 > 3:16:12And I'm open-minded about it.
3:16:12 > 3:16:14But the bottom line has got to be independent regulation
3:16:14 > 3:16:18so those innocent victims never have to see that repeated again.
3:16:18 > 3:16:20APPLAUSE
3:16:26 > 3:16:29I accept that the press needs to be regulated independently,
3:16:29 > 3:16:31but I don't see...
3:16:32 > 3:16:35But it's been said this week that David Cameron is not
3:16:35 > 3:16:37completely supporting Leveson, and I'm just wondering why.
3:16:37 > 3:16:40Why the Conservative party doesn't support it.
3:16:40 > 3:16:43Lord Justice Leveson said it was essential there was a legal framework
3:16:43 > 3:16:44which we will come to in a second.
3:16:44 > 3:16:48Up to now, Mr Barber has spoken an awful lot of sense,
3:16:48 > 3:16:52- I've been very impressed with what he's said.- Thank you very much!
3:16:52 > 3:16:56But it has to be acknowledged that three-quarters of the editors that
3:16:56 > 3:17:00you walk through Number Ten, is that they've all got papers in Ireland.
3:17:00 > 3:17:04They're all signed up there to the restrictions which are there
3:17:04 > 3:17:05for the papers in Ireland.
3:17:05 > 3:17:09And I don't see all the papers refusing to have anything
3:17:09 > 3:17:13to do with Southern Ireland. The argument is a nonsense.
3:17:13 > 3:17:16They're signed over there, but they won't sign here. Why?
3:17:16 > 3:17:19Francis Maude, Lord Justice Leveson said it was essential
3:17:19 > 3:17:23there should be legal underpinning, and the Prime Minister said
3:17:23 > 3:17:26everything but the legal underpinning. Why?
3:17:26 > 3:17:30And can the press be trusted in your view to regulate itself?
3:17:30 > 3:17:32I don't think it's the press regulating itself.
3:17:32 > 3:17:35I think everyone agrees there's got to be an independent regulator
3:17:35 > 3:17:39which commands trust. And can that happen?
3:17:39 > 3:17:40I think the jury's out.
3:17:40 > 3:17:43I think the press have got to come together
3:17:43 > 3:17:45and put together a regulator.
3:17:45 > 3:17:48This is what Lord Justice Leveson himself said,
3:17:48 > 3:17:51that the press have got to come together and create
3:17:51 > 3:17:55a regulatory body that commands genuine support.
3:17:55 > 3:17:57And it will have to earn trust.
3:17:57 > 3:18:00But he said essential to have legal underpinning,
3:18:00 > 3:18:06ie a law, not just he and his fellow editors agreeing a system.
3:18:06 > 3:18:08Yes. You see, I'm not persuaded of that.
3:18:08 > 3:18:10I think there has to be statutory underpinning,
3:18:10 > 3:18:15it has to have the backing of law and I think everyone agrees that.
3:18:15 > 3:18:18The newspapers, the publishers, have got to commit themselves
3:18:18 > 3:18:23by contract to accept what this regulator does.
3:18:23 > 3:18:26And it's got to command real support.
3:18:26 > 3:18:30I think there is a job for the press to do to win trust again
3:18:30 > 3:18:33and the jury is out. Lionel and his colleagues will...
3:18:33 > 3:18:36So how do you differ from Leveson?
3:18:36 > 3:18:38You say there has to be statutory underpinning.
3:18:38 > 3:18:40Is that not the same as legal underpinning?
3:18:40 > 3:18:45No, because what has been proposed, and I think is plausible,
3:18:45 > 3:18:49is an arrangement where the newspapers commit themselves
3:18:49 > 3:18:52by a contractual arrangement, which is capable of being
3:18:52 > 3:18:57judged in courts, but which doesn't have the statutory underpinning.
3:18:57 > 3:19:01The danger with statute is that it is open to abuse of power.
3:19:01 > 3:19:05It puts power in the hands of the Government and of Parliament
3:19:05 > 3:19:08and actually, I've suffered at the hands of the press.
3:19:08 > 3:19:12Lots of people have. That's what you do when you go into public life.
3:19:12 > 3:19:14I haven't found it comfortable always,
3:19:14 > 3:19:19but I will absolutely defend the right of the press to be free
3:19:19 > 3:19:22and to have free comment and that independence,
3:19:22 > 3:19:25uncomfortable though it is for those of us in public life,
3:19:25 > 3:19:26is to be defended.
3:19:26 > 3:19:29The woman here on the left, then I'll come to you, Andy.
3:19:29 > 3:19:30APPLAUSE
3:19:30 > 3:19:32There are many, many occupations in this country
3:19:32 > 3:19:35that we don't allow people to practise if they're not
3:19:35 > 3:19:39registered in some way, such as lawyers, doctors, even electricians.
3:19:39 > 3:19:41That's because we do that to protect the public
3:19:41 > 3:19:43from what harm could happen to them.
3:19:43 > 3:19:46I don't see why journalists should be any different from that.
3:19:46 > 3:19:49- Andy Burnham, do you?- No, I don't.
3:19:49 > 3:19:51You think all journalists should be registered?
3:19:51 > 3:19:53- That's what she said. - No, I thought...
3:19:53 > 3:19:57- I don't mean registered but they should be subject to regulation. - Like the GMC.
3:19:57 > 3:20:01To answer the question, yes, I do trust them, but that's what
3:20:01 > 3:20:04Lord Leveson proposed, self-regulation with teeth,
3:20:04 > 3:20:06independent self-regulation.
3:20:06 > 3:20:09Let's be clear, he didn't propose statutory or state regulation
3:20:09 > 3:20:12of the press. Tim's right. I agree with what Tim said.
3:20:12 > 3:20:15If any city knows that the current system where the press is
3:20:15 > 3:20:18a law unto itself, knows the current system can't go on,
3:20:18 > 3:20:21it's surely this city, where 23 years ago
3:20:21 > 3:20:26despicable lies were told about the victims, the survivors of a tragedy.
3:20:26 > 3:20:29A general slur was cast on the supporters
3:20:29 > 3:20:32of Liverpool Football Club and this whole city.
3:20:32 > 3:20:35And for 23 years, we lived under that.
3:20:35 > 3:20:38The press helped put the lid on one of the biggest cover-ups
3:20:38 > 3:20:43this is country has ever seen. It was complicit in that.
3:20:43 > 3:20:45APPLAUSE
3:20:51 > 3:20:54What troubles me about Hillsborough,
3:20:54 > 3:20:58this city boycotted that out-of-control newspaper in result.
3:20:58 > 3:21:01But who was listening? London wasn't listening.
3:21:01 > 3:21:03It took politicians' and celebrities' phones to be hacked
3:21:03 > 3:21:04till someone listened.
3:21:04 > 3:21:07But even for Hillsborough the press has been a double-edged sword.
3:21:07 > 3:21:11I worked with investigative journalists who in the end helped us
3:21:11 > 3:21:15prise the lid back off and expose the cover-ups.
3:21:15 > 3:21:17So the free press is absolutely essential.
3:21:17 > 3:21:21But it's where those ordinary people at the lowest point in their lives,
3:21:21 > 3:21:24the Hillsborough families, the McCanns, the Dowlers.
3:21:24 > 3:21:27They are the people who've been demolished by the press in this
3:21:27 > 3:21:29country when they're at their most vulnerable
3:21:29 > 3:21:35and the press must be forced to make recompense to those people, give them adequate protection.
3:21:35 > 3:21:38That's why what Leveson recommends so tremendously important.
3:21:38 > 3:21:41APPLAUSE OK, Andy, but just to try...
3:21:44 > 3:21:48The key quote from Leveson that the Prime Minister disagreed with
3:21:48 > 3:21:50and said was a Rubicon that we should not cross,
3:21:50 > 3:21:54or ideally will not cross, and these are Leveson's words,
3:21:54 > 3:21:57"it's essential there should be legislation
3:21:57 > 3:21:59"to underpin the self-regulatory system."
3:21:59 > 3:22:03- Do you agree, yes or no? - Yes, I agree with that.
3:22:03 > 3:22:05You do? OK, fine. Leanne Wood?
3:22:05 > 3:22:07I agree with that as well.
3:22:07 > 3:22:11The Press Complaints Commission has completely failed
3:22:11 > 3:22:14as a voluntary body.
3:22:14 > 3:22:19The serious transgressors were allowed to opt out of the system.
3:22:19 > 3:22:22The problem for me is I'm less concerned actually
3:22:22 > 3:22:25with the celebrities and even the politicians,
3:22:25 > 3:22:28but the ordinary people who've no recourse.
3:22:28 > 3:22:32The only way to challenge a newspaper that has printed
3:22:32 > 3:22:35lies about you is to take them through the courts
3:22:35 > 3:22:36through the libel laws
3:22:36 > 3:22:39and for most people of ordinary income
3:22:39 > 3:22:41that's completely impossible.
3:22:41 > 3:22:45So I support the Leveson recommendations
3:22:45 > 3:22:47to protect the public.
3:22:47 > 3:22:50But also to protect freedom of expression.
3:22:50 > 3:22:55- That's an important point as well. - OK.- I have a quick point. - Be very, very quick.
3:22:55 > 3:22:59It's about the Hillsborough. Andy deserves enormous credit.
3:22:59 > 3:23:04He campaigned vigorously on Hillsborough to expose
3:23:04 > 3:23:05a lasting injustice.
3:23:05 > 3:23:08And he deserves enormous credit for what he did.
3:23:08 > 3:23:10APPLAUSE
3:23:18 > 3:23:20And I just make this point.
3:23:20 > 3:23:24You were able to do that, which you did brilliantly and bravely,
3:23:24 > 3:23:28- because of your right of free speech, and freedom of expression. - I accept that.
3:23:28 > 3:23:31And we have to guard that really carefully.
3:23:31 > 3:23:33Nobody should do this lightly.
3:23:33 > 3:23:37Every politician who supports the enactment of Leveson's
3:23:37 > 3:23:42proposals on press regulation should feel uncomfortable about it,
3:23:42 > 3:23:46but we also have to remember that there are threats to the free press
3:23:46 > 3:23:48from within the press.
3:23:48 > 3:23:50Two of my colleagues, for example,
3:23:50 > 3:23:52have had their regular columns pulled this week
3:23:52 > 3:23:57by their separate newspapers because they were too pro-Leveson.
3:23:57 > 3:24:01This is what we get sometimes, when you see a press
3:24:01 > 3:24:04which is very, very powerful.
3:24:04 > 3:24:08The suppression of the truth does not always come from politicians.
3:24:08 > 3:24:13It can come from extremely wealthy magnates who own vast numbers of newspapers.
3:24:13 > 3:24:15APPLAUSE
3:24:18 > 3:24:22Who owns you? Do wealthy people own you?
3:24:22 > 3:24:25- It wasn't your paper.- No, we're just owned by someone called Pearson.
3:24:25 > 3:24:29- Very simple.- Let's... - Just one little point.
3:24:29 > 3:24:34In the next week or so, you'll see proposals from the editors,
3:24:34 > 3:24:36from the journalistic profession,
3:24:36 > 3:24:42which will support what I said about the industry embracing Leveson
3:24:42 > 3:24:46and answering a lot of the questions people have
3:24:46 > 3:24:50about responsible behaviour, the ordinary people
3:24:50 > 3:24:53who are not well-treated by the press.
3:24:53 > 3:24:57There will be some serious meat in proposals in the next few days.
3:24:57 > 3:25:00Right, well, we will hold our breath. Or we won't...
3:25:00 > 3:25:01No, we WILL hold our breath!
3:25:01 > 3:25:05Thank you, David, for that resounding vote of confidence(!)
3:25:05 > 3:25:06Edward Lamb, please.
3:25:06 > 3:25:10When will the new pay-what-you-want tax rule be rolled out to
3:25:10 > 3:25:12the rest of the business world?
3:25:12 > 3:25:16"When will the new pay-what-you-want tax rule be rolled out..."
3:25:16 > 3:25:17APPLAUSE
3:25:21 > 3:25:23".. to the rest of the business world",
3:25:23 > 3:25:26or indeed to all of us, maybe, just make voluntary contributions.
3:25:26 > 3:25:28Starbucks, obviously at the heart of this.
3:25:28 > 3:25:31The managing director has said they will now pay a significant
3:25:31 > 3:25:34amount of tax, regardless of whether the company is profitable.
3:25:34 > 3:25:36They'll change all their arrangements
3:25:36 > 3:25:37and if they've made a loss,
3:25:37 > 3:25:41they'll still pay £10 million this year and £10 million next year.
3:25:41 > 3:25:42It's the weirdest thing.
3:25:42 > 3:25:46Francis Maude understands all this, what is going on?
3:25:46 > 3:25:49Well, I think Starbucks have woken up and smelled the coffee. And...
3:25:49 > 3:25:51LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
3:25:55 > 3:26:00And I think what was significant, this was people power actually.
3:26:00 > 3:26:03They are a consumer brand, a retail brand,
3:26:03 > 3:26:05and the public were making their feelings known.
3:26:05 > 3:26:10People who work hard and pay their taxes actually deeply resented
3:26:10 > 3:26:13the fact that here was a multinational that was
3:26:13 > 3:26:18avoiding paying tax, although it was operating in this country.
3:26:18 > 3:26:20Why didn't you make them pay the tax?
3:26:20 > 3:26:22We are, for the first time, introducing
3:26:22 > 3:26:25a general anti-abuse provision into the law,
3:26:25 > 3:26:28which has never been done before.
3:26:28 > 3:26:31So if you have a phony arrangement like every cup of coffee,
3:26:31 > 3:26:34we have to pay Holland to serve it here in Liverpool
3:26:34 > 3:26:37and therefore we don't have to pay tax - you'll change it?
3:26:37 > 3:26:42- They've already done it in Scotland.- What it will do is introduce arrangements so that
3:26:42 > 3:26:45if there is something which is plainly artificial, an arrangement
3:26:45 > 3:26:48which is clearly artificial, designed for tax avoidance...
3:26:48 > 3:26:50I thought that's what the Inland Revenue did all the time!
3:26:50 > 3:26:53This is an artificial arrangement, you can't get away with it.
3:26:53 > 3:26:57What they do, consistently - four things which George Osborne
3:26:57 > 3:26:59announced yesterday which contributed to this -
3:26:59 > 3:27:02they're constantly blocking loopholes,
3:27:02 > 3:27:05they're looking for loopholes, finding them and blocking them.
3:27:05 > 3:27:07- That's what's consistently been done.- OK.
3:27:07 > 3:27:09But you're always behind the fair.
3:27:09 > 3:27:12What the general anti-abuse provision will do
3:27:12 > 3:27:16is enable them to look proactively at artificial arrangements
3:27:16 > 3:27:20and ensure that the substance is what's properly taxed.
3:27:20 > 3:27:23This is guilty conscience. This isn't paying money they have to pay.
3:27:23 > 3:27:26Everybody knows it was legal up to now,
3:27:26 > 3:27:29doing what they're doing, and they say they'll pay 10 million
3:27:29 > 3:27:32this year and 10 million next year, even if they make a loss.
3:27:32 > 3:27:34It's weird! LAUGHTER
3:27:34 > 3:27:36What I think they're saying is that they're going to
3:27:36 > 3:27:39stop claiming some deductions
3:27:39 > 3:27:43which may or may not have been artificial, in order to avoid tax.
3:27:43 > 3:27:47- Any coffee drinkers here? - And that's well for them to do.
3:27:47 > 3:27:49The woman up there on the left. Yes, you.
3:27:49 > 3:27:52They've not paid it for the last three years.
3:27:52 > 3:27:57- Is the 10 million too little? - Well, that's a good point.
3:27:57 > 3:28:02- What do you think?- To view tax as a voluntary donation given
3:28:02 > 3:28:05out of the goodness of their heart
3:28:05 > 3:28:07is quite an extraordinary view of life.
3:28:07 > 3:28:10I just wonder what small British businesses will think
3:28:10 > 3:28:14when they see this kind of behaviour.
3:28:14 > 3:28:17We hear all this stuff about playing by the rules from the Government,
3:28:17 > 3:28:19but they'd better get these people
3:28:19 > 3:28:21playing by the rules for a start, that would help.
3:28:21 > 3:28:24It has echoes for me of other things we've seen in Parliament,
3:28:24 > 3:28:27in banking - an elite setting their own rules.
3:28:27 > 3:28:30It's not going to go down well with the public at all.
3:28:30 > 3:28:32A bit rich coming from you.
3:28:32 > 3:28:35How long has Starbucks been operating in this country?
3:28:35 > 3:28:37Ten years and they haven't paid any...
3:28:37 > 3:28:40And how many years of that was a Labour Chancellor in power?
3:28:40 > 3:28:41APPLAUSE
3:28:44 > 3:28:49- I'm making more of a general point. - I bet you are!
3:28:49 > 3:28:51LAUGHTER
3:28:51 > 3:28:55We've all woken up to the issue, as you were saying in your question.
3:28:55 > 3:28:58I think the point is that it's global brands, multinationals,
3:28:58 > 3:29:02who can play one bit of their empire off against another.
3:29:02 > 3:29:05"Holland's getting the royalties..." That's the problem.
3:29:05 > 3:29:07Margaret Hodge has done a brilliant job exposing this
3:29:07 > 3:29:09in the Public Accounts Committee.
3:29:09 > 3:29:11It seems to me the Government
3:29:11 > 3:29:14does now have to go after this issue very strongly.
3:29:14 > 3:29:17There's about £32 billion of uncollected tax from these people
3:29:17 > 3:29:21and we need to get finding that money, rather than going
3:29:21 > 3:29:26after people at the very bottom who are so-called cheating on benefits.
3:29:26 > 3:29:28- Let's get after these people. - You, sir.
3:29:28 > 3:29:29APPLAUSE
3:29:31 > 3:29:34I set up a company to try to pay my way through university
3:29:34 > 3:29:35and it's a real kick in the teeth
3:29:35 > 3:29:39to see these multi-million dollar corporations paying nothing,
3:29:39 > 3:29:40or even offering money
3:29:40 > 3:29:44while I'm having to pay most of the money that I earn out of my company.
3:29:44 > 3:29:45It's a real kick up the backside.
3:29:45 > 3:29:48- You set up the company and made a profit?- Yes.
3:29:48 > 3:29:50I'm a full-time student and to pay my way through university,
3:29:50 > 3:29:53I run this company. It's just quite harsh
3:29:53 > 3:29:55to see these corporations offering money,
3:29:55 > 3:29:57when really they should be getting it
3:29:57 > 3:29:59taken away from them if they're operating here.
3:29:59 > 3:30:02OK, and you, sir, behind. Three behind.
3:30:02 > 3:30:04I think if you look at Google and Amazon,
3:30:04 > 3:30:07where they don't have any competition, unlike Starbucks.
3:30:07 > 3:30:10Starbucks has made this decision cos they have a lot of
3:30:10 > 3:30:13competition on the marketplace and know people will go elsewhere.
3:30:13 > 3:30:14They go to the competitors.
3:30:14 > 3:30:16They can go to bookshops instead of Amazon.
3:30:16 > 3:30:19- Yeah, absolutely, but I think...- Still a few!
3:30:19 > 3:30:20LAUGHTER
3:30:20 > 3:30:25But I think Amazon is a massive monopoly, as is Google. They know they don't have the same threats.
3:30:25 > 3:30:28A quick point - this is true of our Government and the current one.
3:30:28 > 3:30:30Governments get too close to big businesses.
3:30:30 > 3:30:32This Government has been too close to Google.
3:30:32 > 3:30:36All governments need to step back from the press, from big business
3:30:36 > 3:30:40- and do the right thing. That was true of us, too.- Leanne Wood.
3:30:40 > 3:30:43I don't think anybody should be allowed to decide
3:30:43 > 3:30:46how much tax they pay. That should be set out clearly
3:30:46 > 3:30:49and the rules should be fair across the board.
3:30:49 > 3:30:53There needs to be some sort of international agreement
3:30:53 > 3:30:54on tax avoidance.
3:30:54 > 3:30:56I'm not sure how much money we're talking here about
3:30:56 > 3:31:02because HMRC themselves say that there is £32.2 billion
3:31:02 > 3:31:04in tax avoidance every year.
3:31:04 > 3:31:08But the TUC say it's £120 billion a year.
3:31:08 > 3:31:12It'd be useful to know what we're dealing with.
3:31:12 > 3:31:14But surely one of the big problems is the cuts to the staff
3:31:14 > 3:31:18who are meant to be going out collecting the taxes.
3:31:18 > 3:31:21While the Labour Party were in government
3:31:21 > 3:31:29there were 12,500 people, HMRC staff, laid off between 2008-2010,
3:31:29 > 3:31:34and a further 5,000 staff have been laid off by the Tories
3:31:34 > 3:31:37and the Liberal Democrats between 2010-2012.
3:31:37 > 3:31:41But this wouldn't have affected Starbucks. You could see them there.
3:31:41 > 3:31:44You don't need 1,500 people to tell Starbucks.
3:31:44 > 3:31:48Starbucks is one example.
3:31:48 > 3:31:51Clearly, because they are a multinational corporation,
3:31:51 > 3:31:53they can play these rules off against each other
3:31:53 > 3:31:55in different countries,
3:31:55 > 3:31:58which is why you need an international agreement.
3:31:58 > 3:32:02But in general, what the Government is doing with its austerity
3:32:02 > 3:32:04programme is cutting at the bottom,
3:32:04 > 3:32:09while allowing the rich corporations and individuals to avoid paying tax.
3:32:09 > 3:32:13And those tax loopholes should be closed down, in my view,
3:32:13 > 3:32:19and more people should be taken on in HMRC, with experience.
3:32:19 > 3:32:22You've taken on temporary staff with limited experience
3:32:22 > 3:32:26and laid off people who can do complex investigations
3:32:26 > 3:32:28which can bring the money and...
3:32:28 > 3:32:31Point made, thank you. The man up there at the back. APPLAUSE
3:32:31 > 3:32:36I'm sure the panel take measures to minimise their tax liability.
3:32:36 > 3:32:38This is what the companies have done.
3:32:38 > 3:32:42It's the rules that need toughening.
3:32:42 > 3:32:43The loopholes need to be plugged.
3:32:43 > 3:32:45APPLAUSE
3:32:47 > 3:32:50May be the Government should employ the tax advisers
3:32:50 > 3:32:55of multinationals to find loopholes and claim money back from taxpayers.
3:32:55 > 3:32:58- Poacher turned gamekeeper.- Yeah. - Lionel Barber.
3:32:58 > 3:33:02Let's be clear, the company has not committed a crime.
3:33:02 > 3:33:06Not even the Government has said what it's been doing is illegal.
3:33:06 > 3:33:07What is important...
3:33:07 > 3:33:11There's a parallel between the comedian, Jimmy Carr,
3:33:11 > 3:33:13who if you remember, it was reported
3:33:13 > 3:33:18he'd been engaged in very aggressive tax management
3:33:18 > 3:33:19and not paying a lot of tax.
3:33:19 > 3:33:23So he said, "I haven't done anything wrong."
3:33:23 > 3:33:26But with the public outrage, he changed his mind.
3:33:26 > 3:33:29This is what's happened with Starbucks.
3:33:29 > 3:33:34They have understood that their duty is not only
3:33:34 > 3:33:38to their shareholders - they operate in a community.
3:33:38 > 3:33:41And it is really not acceptable to engage in this
3:33:41 > 3:33:44kind of aggressive tax avoidance,
3:33:44 > 3:33:48when they've made plenty of money, albeit not in this country.
3:33:48 > 3:33:51They have the weird coffee bean manoeuvre,
3:33:51 > 3:33:54which David Dimbleby alluded to, which I don't understand.
3:33:54 > 3:33:58The royalty payments - that's allowed under EU law,
3:33:58 > 3:34:01those transfers, so they've seen sense.
3:34:01 > 3:34:05I think the broader question, and something
3:34:05 > 3:34:07which really shouldn't be forgotten,
3:34:07 > 3:34:10is that, yes, people power has worked,
3:34:10 > 3:34:15but who will really suffer in the event of a further consumer boycott?
3:34:15 > 3:34:18The answer is, those people who've taken risks to
3:34:18 > 3:34:22take on work as franchisee of Starbucks.
3:34:22 > 3:34:26They're losing money, they may go out of work. This is a problem.
3:34:26 > 3:34:28We had someone in our audience
3:34:28 > 3:34:30a fortnight ago actually who'd got a franchise.
3:34:30 > 3:34:35The money that's been accumulated is in Seattle,
3:34:35 > 3:34:37the home of Starbucks, not in this country.
3:34:37 > 3:34:40Tim Farron, have to be brief, we're almost out of time.
3:34:40 > 3:34:44What is taxation? It's the subscription charge
3:34:44 > 3:34:46for living in a civilised society.
3:34:46 > 3:34:50Starbucks benefit hugely from living and operating in our society.
3:34:50 > 3:34:53Their staff are educated by us, protected by our police.
3:34:53 > 3:34:57Those of us that end up with rotten teeth by drinking their frappuccinos
3:34:57 > 3:35:00get their teeth looked after on the NHS... I'm a tea drinker, what do I know?
3:35:00 > 3:35:05The point is this - the indictment on our society and on government
3:35:05 > 3:35:08of all colours is that we've even got to this situation
3:35:08 > 3:35:11in the first place. We should stop rattling on about it
3:35:11 > 3:35:12and slagging off Starbucks
3:35:12 > 3:35:15and just fix the tax code and stop this happening again.
3:35:15 > 3:35:17APPLAUSE
3:35:18 > 3:35:20Right.
3:35:23 > 3:35:24That's it for tonight.
3:35:24 > 3:35:27We're in Bristol next week, the last one of the year.
3:35:27 > 3:35:31On our panel, Will Self, the author, and the editor of The Times,
3:35:31 > 3:35:35having had the editor of the Financial Times, James Harding.
3:35:35 > 3:35:38If you want to come, the website address is there
3:35:38 > 3:35:41or you can call 0330 123 99 88.
3:35:41 > 3:35:43Thanks to you, panellists.
3:35:43 > 3:35:47Thanks to you, all this large audience in Liverpool,
3:35:47 > 3:35:49for coming along for Question Time.
3:35:49 > 3:35:51Until next Thursday, from all of us here, good night.
3:35:51 > 3:35:52APPLAUSE
3:36:18 > 3:36:19Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd