:00:10. > :00:20.Tonight we are in Goldsmiths College in Lusa Sobral in South
:00:20. > :00:22.
:00:22. > :00:28.London -- in Lewisham in South Good evening. Of course, a big
:00:28. > :00:31.welcome to our audience in Lewisham. Tonight our panel has on it the
:00:31. > :00:34.Energy and Climate Change Secretary, the Liberal Democrat Ed Davey.
:00:34. > :00:37.Labour's former Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott.
:00:37. > :00:47.The Conservative MP Nadine Dorries, still suspended from the
:00:47. > :00:47.
:00:47. > :00:56.Parliamentary party because she went on Am A celebrity, John and
:00:56. > :01:06.the Times column Nis, Camilla Cavendish -- columnist, Camilla
:01:06. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:15.Thomas Sturge has the first question of the year. S-the 1%
:01:15. > :01:19.benefits cap fair? Is the 1% benefits cap fair? John Prescott?
:01:19. > :01:23.Certainly not however you measure it. The Government says their
:01:23. > :01:27.policies must be fair. They say they have a difficulty, I
:01:27. > :01:34.understand the point, but if you take 1% of somebody on benefit,
:01:34. > :01:38.let's say job allowance and 1% on the 500 average wage, then clearly
:01:39. > :01:42.the differences are considerable and they are not fair. Leaving out
:01:42. > :01:50.the real problem, if you let millionaires have a cut basically
:01:50. > :01:54.down to 45 from 50% and they get �107,000 back, it maybe 1%, but by
:01:54. > :02:04.God it is not the same of somebody on a benefit on 1%. No, it is not
:02:04. > :02:14.
:02:14. > :02:17.fair and therefore, it is wrong. APPLAUSE
:02:17. > :02:19.Your argument would be there is no discrepancy in agreeing to 1% on
:02:19. > :02:22.public sector workers, but not agreeing 1% for people on benefits?
:02:22. > :02:24.I think we are get nothing a mess about this welfare fronkly and I
:02:24. > :02:29.think -- frankly and I think politicians start thinking about
:02:30. > :02:33.the whole range because all the anomalies that are occurring, and
:02:33. > :02:37.the politicians are getting into the argument about the shirkers and
:02:37. > :02:42.the people who are working and we need to reform the welfare system.
:02:42. > :02:46.When it was set-up in 1947 at least we were dealing with the illnesses,
:02:46. > :02:50.the diseases, the poverty, of unemployment, of disease, that was
:02:50. > :02:53.a fundamental change. Things have changed considerably. And you have
:02:53. > :03:00.got to provide something which will cost you more money and perhaps you
:03:00. > :03:04.have got to ask what is the alternative expenditure, and you
:03:04. > :03:10.are seeing high expenditures going on at the moment and you are trying
:03:10. > :03:18.to force those on welfare to pay the price for the fault that they
:03:18. > :03:21.didn't occur. Looking back on it now, I was a great supporter of of
:03:21. > :03:26.Beverage, the five diseases he wanted to deal with, he did, but it
:03:26. > :03:29.has changed and we need to look at other principles that are going to
:03:29. > :03:32.govern the distribution of wealth and the power and dealing with
:03:32. > :03:39.those at the bottom of the thing that get a better chance than those
:03:39. > :03:42.at the top and that's what is going on at the moment.
:03:42. > :03:47.APPLAUSE Nadine Dorries? Well, can I deal
:03:47. > :03:53.with something that John said in that little ramble? You mentioned
:03:53. > :03:56.the tax rate going down. Yes, we did that, John didn't say when you
:03:56. > :04:04.were in Government, you were in Government for 4,000 days and you
:04:04. > :04:11.only put the tax rate up to 50% in your last 4 days -- 4 days. -- 4
:04:11. > :04:17.days. Can you answer? It is not a cut, it
:04:17. > :04:22.is a 1% increase that are are being capped.
:04:22. > :04:28.Is it fair? I have nurses and policemen in my constituency,
:04:28. > :04:33.policemen who go out on a Saturday night into Luton Town centre and
:04:33. > :04:40.who work in the public sector and had their pay frozen and while
:04:40. > :04:45.their pay was frozen benefits went up by 5.2%, we inherited the worst
:04:45. > :04:50.deficit in 2010 and I am afraid everybody has to bear the brunt of
:04:50. > :04:56.that and bear the cost. 1% cap on increase isn't a cut, it is a cap
:04:56. > :05:02.on the increase. I also think that we need to understand understand
:05:02. > :05:08.that it is not a permanent thing this. Is a temporary thing.
:05:08. > :05:13.don't the pensioners bear the same thing? Not only pensioners, but the
:05:13. > :05:16.disabled and the vulnerable are being protected... Why do you
:05:16. > :05:23.protect the pencors? Because pensioners are vulnerable.
:05:23. > :05:28.Because what? Because pensioners are... What? Why pensioners? Well,
:05:28. > :05:34.we have actually given pensioners an increase. Pensioners have
:05:34. > :05:38.contributed to our economy. 90% of people in this country working
:05:38. > :05:43.people and non working people were eligible for benefits. That means
:05:43. > :05:48.we are taxing people to give them back benefits. That's expensive and
:05:48. > :05:55.it doesn't work. What we need to do is to give those people who really
:05:55. > :05:59.do deserve benefits, better benefits going forward and we need
:05:59. > :06:03.to to simplify the tax system so we are not taking tax from you to give
:06:03. > :06:06.it back to you on benefits. APPLAUSE
:06:06. > :06:11.The woman in green up there. Yes, I am a public sector worker
:06:11. > :06:16.and I am not happy with this argument that is being put forward
:06:16. > :06:19.contrasting the effective cut in public sector salary with a cap on
:06:19. > :06:26.benefit. Why not? Well, I, of course, think
:06:26. > :06:31.it is not right that public sector workers should have their pay cut...
:06:31. > :06:35.Or frozen? It comes to the same thing if you take into account
:06:36. > :06:39.inflation and this is the fourth year, but to use that as a
:06:39. > :06:43.comparison as to why people on benefit should have theirs capped
:06:43. > :06:49.is wrong. It is a wrong comparison. It should be made between the
:06:49. > :06:52.people on benefit who are very poor or even much poorer than people who
:06:52. > :06:55.are working compared to the wealthy people and so I don't appreciate
:06:55. > :07:00.that. APPLAUSE
:07:00. > :07:08.You, sir. The man in the fifth row. Do the panel think it is helpful
:07:08. > :07:15.for politicians to engage in provocative language such as
:07:16. > :07:21."strivers and shirkers." John Bird? I think it is dodgy for the
:07:21. > :07:30.comfortable to be passing judgement on the discomfortable by making
:07:31. > :07:33.them more uncomfortable. APPLAUSE
:07:33. > :07:36.I think that's a separate issue to the overhaul that we need to give
:07:36. > :07:40.to the welfare system. The welfare system needs to be a system which
:07:40. > :07:49.was invented as a springboard for those people who could use it. It
:07:49. > :07:53.was not invented as a place where we hair house some of the most
:07:53. > :07:58.disenfranchised people in Britain today. Something I tried to give Mr
:07:58. > :08:03.Mandelson many years ago when I said to him, "you have to farewell
:08:03. > :08:05.on welfare in order to say farewell to welfare." We have got hundreds
:08:05. > :08:08.of thousands of people who are stuck on welfare. They need to be
:08:09. > :08:13.reformed. They need to be brought into the workforce. They need to be
:08:13. > :08:20.put in colleges and universities. But don't at this moment start
:08:20. > :08:30.giving the poor a kicking specially from some of the of the most
:08:30. > :08:34.
:08:34. > :08:37.comfortable people who have ever run the British Government.
:08:37. > :08:41.APPLAUSE Ed Davey? When the coalition
:08:41. > :08:45.Government came to power we were borrowing �3 billion every single
:08:45. > :08:49.week. So we have had to take tough decisions with cutting spending in
:08:49. > :08:54.a number of Hall departments. We are asking, John, the rich to pay a
:08:54. > :09:01.lot more. Rightly so, they have got the largest shoulders, they should
:09:02. > :09:07.bear the highest burden. That's not the point. We got rid of the
:09:07. > :09:10.capital gains tax dodge that was brought in by Labour. It was an
:09:10. > :09:14.outrageous thing for Labour to do and the rich should be paying more.
:09:14. > :09:16.Last year, I was praud when the Liberal Democrats -- proud when the
:09:17. > :09:21.Liberal Democrats fought within the coalition Government to make sure
:09:21. > :09:25.that benefits did go up by inflation, 5.2% they went up, even
:09:25. > :09:29.though we were asking many workers in the public sector to have a pay
:09:29. > :09:35.freeze. I think it is right and fair that other people do have some
:09:35. > :09:39.of the burden. So it was fair last year, but it is not fair to do that
:09:39. > :09:43.in year? When the financial crisis happened, to when this Welfare
:09:43. > :09:47.Reform Bill is in place, wages will have gone up the same as benefits
:09:47. > :09:51.and I think if everyone is going up the same, everyone is is sharing
:09:51. > :09:55.the burden, that is right. The rich should pay more and that's what is
:09:55. > :09:59.happening. What do you say to John Prescott,
:09:59. > :10:04.that 1% to somebody on a low income is a great deal less than 1% to a
:10:04. > :10:10.person say on �20,000, or or �30,000 a year in the public
:10:10. > :10:16.sector? I understand that. That's why we are increasing the income
:10:16. > :10:23.tax allowance. �600 a year tax cut from this April if you are in work.
:10:23. > :10:28.�1200 if you have got to two in a couple. That is worth a lot more to
:10:28. > :10:32.the low paid. The real point is the message we
:10:33. > :10:35.send to the publish public and that is what we think the poor are
:10:35. > :10:40.responsible for themselves. They are responsible for the causes of
:10:40. > :10:43.their own poverty. If you look at the way in which the Social
:10:43. > :10:47.Security system was created over the years, when Margaret Thatcher
:10:47. > :10:52.closed down all the lame duck industries, they parked up nearly
:10:52. > :10:58.one million workers on Social Security and turned the Social
:10:58. > :11:02.Security system from a contributory system to a non non contributetry
:11:02. > :11:10.system. She should have been turning those miners into
:11:10. > :11:13.industrialists. APPLAUSE
:11:13. > :11:21.I thought you once said you were a Tory? This is so interesting. You
:11:21. > :11:31.get somebody quotes a little bit. I am a working class Marxist Tory
:11:31. > :11:32.
:11:32. > :11:34.with socialist liberal liberal leanings which means to say...
:11:34. > :11:36.APPLAUSE I find it incredibly difficult to
:11:36. > :11:41.fit into the left or the right. Like most people they are left on
:11:41. > :11:46.some things and right on others. Camilla Cavendish? I want to talk
:11:46. > :11:50.about the gentleman who talked about the provocative language. I
:11:50. > :11:54.think agree with you because I think the language of strivers and
:11:54. > :11:58.shirkers are distorting this debate and it is unhelpful and we should
:11:58. > :12:03.stop using it. I also think it disstracts from what we should be
:12:03. > :12:07.looking at at which is the whole welfare Bill. The whole Welfare
:12:07. > :12:10.Bill is too big and it is growing and the more we spend on welfare,
:12:11. > :12:14.the less we can spend on hospitals, the less we can spend on schools
:12:14. > :12:17.and the less we can spend on defence. That's just the reality.
:12:17. > :12:21.Somebody mentioned it earlier, the piece that has not been addressed
:12:21. > :12:25.in this welfare cap is the question of pensions which are, of course, a
:12:25. > :12:30.vast part of this Bill and pensioner benefits. It used to be
:12:30. > :12:34.true that being elderly, pretty much meant you were poor and when
:12:34. > :12:38.we needed to support those people people because it was hard to get
:12:38. > :12:42.through your old age and we have got a different situation. We have
:12:42. > :12:51.got a generation coming into retirement, which is the wealthiest
:12:51. > :13:00.generation of people we have seen. Those Peel are getting winter fuel
:13:00. > :13:05.allowance and benefits. Unless you address that there is an unfairness.
:13:05. > :13:11.There is a propaganda going on that, the fault is the welfare system,
:13:11. > :13:13.namely that it is paying too much. In reality, our welfare system is
:13:13. > :13:18.subsidising low pay with tax credits which we brought in, with
:13:18. > :13:24.low pay so the welfare is taken the heavy -- taking the heavy burden
:13:24. > :13:28.and at the same time it may only have been one year when you did the
:13:28. > :13:34.50 pence, it means that the millionaires, who are getting
:13:34. > :13:39.�107,000 back by the proposals that you make are blaming the welfare
:13:39. > :13:44.system. That's why we need to reform it. That's not true. The
:13:44. > :13:47.rich are paying more in tax than they have at any time in any year
:13:47. > :13:54.under the previous Labour Government. The rich will pay more
:13:54. > :13:58.this year in tax than they did in their 13 years. What you guys did,
:13:58. > :14:03.you allowed the rich and the wealthy to squirrel away their
:14:03. > :14:07.money away from the taxman. Bankers were paying lower tax their their
:14:07. > :14:11.cleaners. That was a scandal that you brought in and we have ended it.
:14:11. > :14:15.What about tax avoidance? The people who are not paying their tax
:14:15. > :14:17.and their businesses are taking money, salting it abroad and not
:14:17. > :14:27.paying their fair share. You are right, you did nothing
:14:27. > :14:27.
:14:27. > :14:30.Give the panel a chance to get their breath back and go to large
:14:30. > :14:33.numbers of people in the audience. If you could make your points,
:14:34. > :14:38.rather than ask more questions, we'll get more of you in. The man
:14:38. > :14:44.in the blue shirt on the right? It's surely inevitable that the
:14:44. > :14:49.result of this policy will be to depress economic activity in poor
:14:49. > :14:56.areas as people have less spending power. That will affect businesses,
:14:56. > :15:01.that will inevitably lead to more job losses, more division in
:15:01. > :15:05.society, possible social unrest and you will see more welloff people
:15:05. > :15:09.wanting to leave those areas and you set off a nasty vicious circle.
:15:09. > :15:12.Thank you, we'll keep that point. The woman in the black-and-white
:15:12. > :15:16.dress? How about Labour bear the brunt of the responsibility. You
:15:16. > :15:22.created a welfare state that threw money at people and left them
:15:22. > :15:32.trapped and now they are suffering. You didn't invest in education, you
:15:32. > :15:36.just threw money... I have a family who work for HMRC, there was a new
:15:36. > :15:39.benefit every couple of months, you threw money at people and now they
:15:39. > :15:43.are so dependent on benefits and the cuts, you know, they are
:15:43. > :15:49.suffering and it was your Government who overcomplicated the
:15:49. > :15:54.welfare state. You sold off our gold bullion, spent money that we
:15:55. > :15:58.didn't have on an illegal war. APPLAUSE. The woman on the left
:15:58. > :16:03.over there? I would like to pick up on Nadine's
:16:03. > :16:07.point which was where she talked about pensioners keeping benefits
:16:07. > :16:11.because they are vulnerable and have contributed to society. A lot
:16:11. > :16:14.of people who are on other benefit who is're out of work have
:16:14. > :16:19.contributed to society as well, we are not all scroungers who've never
:16:19. > :16:22.had a job. A lot of the so-called scroungers have children who're
:16:22. > :16:26.very vulnerable and those people are struggling to feed those
:16:26. > :16:30.children because of the rising costs of food, the rising costs of
:16:30. > :16:35.bills, the rising costs of rent and they're just not able to do that.
:16:35. > :16:40.We have to think about protecting those vulnerable people. Can I
:16:40. > :16:44.just... In a moment. I want a few more points in. Like John Prescott,
:16:44. > :16:47.if you could hold back for the moment. You on the right? Yes. My
:16:48. > :16:52.point is, Britain is a wonderful country to be in, and for many
:16:52. > :16:57.people, the reason they are here is because the benefits system works
:16:57. > :17:03.for them. You can stay at home and make a lot of money and those
:17:03. > :17:09.who're going to work are the ones that pay the price of going out. My
:17:09. > :17:14.children complain. Now, why is it that each time the public talk
:17:14. > :17:19.about their benefit cap or less taxation, they are talking about
:17:19. > :17:28.them. What needs to happen is that the system needs to be overhauled
:17:28. > :17:32.so that we know that to survive - see grease, it's suffering -
:17:32. > :17:36.somehow it sounds ungrateful that people don't see that it's better
:17:36. > :17:41.to make the sacrifice so the changes can happen than staying
:17:41. > :17:47.there as in we don't want the increase. It's not fair on those
:17:47. > :17:53.that are at work and pensioners. OK, they have benefits, but we need to
:17:53. > :17:57.look at reform and let the public understand that Britain needs to
:17:57. > :18:00.survive these hard times. Thank you.
:18:00. > :18:04.Now, we have still got a lot of hands up but I want the panel to
:18:04. > :18:08.have a chance to pick up briefly because we have other questions.
:18:08. > :18:13.The points were that business and demand will be affected by cutting
:18:13. > :18:17.benefits, not increasing them, that was the point made up there, Labour
:18:17. > :18:23.trapped people in the welfare state, the point about the pensioners and
:18:23. > :18:26.your point, madam, there. So Ed Davey, briefly? You are quite right,
:18:26. > :18:30.you need to make sure people can get by in work, that's why we are
:18:30. > :18:34.raising the tax allowance, taking two million low-paid out of income
:18:34. > :18:38.tax all together. What Labour did, they used to tax you then give it
:18:38. > :18:44.back to you as if they were giving you a present, you know. What we
:18:44. > :18:50.need to do is take it off them all together. Because we are doing that
:18:50. > :18:55.with income tax, 24 million people got a tax cut in April of �600.
:18:55. > :18:59.That is helping people on low and middle incomes. I'm not getting it
:18:59. > :19:04.because I'm on a high income, I shouldn't get it, people on low and
:19:04. > :19:09.middle incomes should get it. Prescott, the point about Labour
:19:09. > :19:13.having trapped people in the welfare state. You are going back
:19:13. > :19:16.after the war, that's a long time ago when there was mass
:19:16. > :19:19.unemployment, mass disease, education, all that was changed by
:19:20. > :19:25.the welfare state. We've now got to a stage where people are trying to
:19:25. > :19:30.blame it and there's heavy cost put on it so we need to make a
:19:30. > :19:34.fundamental reform in the system. That's what I'm arguing. People say
:19:34. > :19:39.we can do reform cheaper. All the benefits took three quarters of
:19:39. > :19:47.kids out of poverty, Tax Credit, minimum wage, so bear that in mind.
:19:47. > :19:53.But that hasn't solved the problem though. How would you want to see
:19:53. > :19:56.the reform of the welfare state? It's as fundamental as when
:19:56. > :20:03.Beverage started. Let's ask ourselves, do you want a welfare
:20:03. > :20:06.system? Is it to be fair? How will we measure that? Those are the
:20:06. > :20:09.arguments, so let's sit down and argue about that.
:20:09. > :20:13.APPLAUSE Nadine Dorries, can you pick up on
:20:13. > :20:17.the point that was made at the very beginning that the capping of
:20:17. > :20:21.benefits will only reduce demand, make people move out of certain
:20:21. > :20:26.areas, reduce prosperity generally? Obviously I wouldn't agree with
:20:26. > :20:32.that statement and the gentleman also said about declining
:20:32. > :20:37.employment. We have a million new jobs which have been created and
:20:37. > :20:41.240,000 of those were women the work place now have than there were
:20:41. > :20:46.in 2010, a million new jobs. For every job in the public sector
:20:46. > :20:50.which is lost, two jobs are created in the private sector so we are
:20:50. > :20:54.creating jobs, unemployment is falling. We have the lowest rate of
:20:54. > :20:58.youth unemployment in ten years, unemployment is falling - I'm
:20:58. > :21:04.afraid that's a fact. That's not true. It is because that's what the
:21:04. > :21:09.figures say, John. Tory propaganda. I'm sorry, it isn't, John. The lady
:21:09. > :21:13.who made the point about the pensioner benefits, I was talking
:21:13. > :21:16.about the basic state pension which I believe should be increased. That
:21:16. > :21:21.was the right thing to do. What I do question though, and I think you
:21:21. > :21:24.probably agree with me, is that we have some wealthy pensioners now
:21:24. > :21:28.who are, the winter fuel allowance I think should go to those
:21:28. > :21:32.pensioners who really need it, not to those who are wealthy, but I
:21:32. > :21:36.have heard some figures banded around which I don't agree with. I
:21:36. > :21:41.heard one the other day which said that pensioners who are on a joint
:21:41. > :21:44.pension of �25,000 a year shouldn't get the winter fuel allowance. I
:21:44. > :21:49.think that's on the edge of a limit really because I think that's not
:21:49. > :21:51.what I would call wealthy. I would call that people just about
:21:51. > :21:56.surviving. Thank you very much. Camilla Cavendish, do you want to
:21:56. > :22:00.pick up on any of the points made? John, I love your idea that we can
:22:00. > :22:03.now sit down and discuss what's fair now. I don't think we can do
:22:03. > :22:12.that if you won't even accept that actually the welfare bill is too
:22:12. > :22:16.large and that in fact people, wages aren't better on benefits.
:22:16. > :22:22.He's saying prove it. There is more money in this country to spend than
:22:22. > :22:25.at any time. The lady has a good point to make. If you go to the
:22:25. > :22:30.Department of Work and Pensions, there were 32 new benefits. Every
:22:30. > :22:35.time they introduced a new benefit, there was a new computer system and
:22:35. > :22:39.the system didn't work. There was an opportunity to streamline the
:22:39. > :22:43.system, focus it and make work pay and you didn't do it. You don't
:22:43. > :22:48.want to go over old ground but it's difficult to have that conversation
:22:48. > :22:52.now when so many middle class people have got child benefit, baby
:22:52. > :22:56.bonds, all the things that Labour handed out, now they don't want to
:22:56. > :23:03.give them back and that makes it really difficult to have this
:23:03. > :23:06.conversation. Every Government finds it difficult
:23:06. > :23:11.to govern and it's very, very difficult to govern the welfare
:23:11. > :23:15.system. One of the real things is, every Government's increased the
:23:15. > :23:19.size. This Government has just run out of money and it's not going to
:23:19. > :23:25.increase the size. One thing the Labour Government did and I think
:23:25. > :23:32.with some faults in a sense, that is the laws of unintended
:23:32. > :23:37.consequence - when they gave a lot of support to people in work they
:23:37. > :23:43.supported people in cheap jobs and the people who did well out of it
:23:43. > :23:48.were the shareholders. I think that is one of the unintended laws and
:23:48. > :23:52.consequences that we need to be very careful about. Whef we change
:23:52. > :23:56.something as big as the welfare state, still one to have most
:23:56. > :24:01.beautiful social creation of the 20th century, it has to be
:24:01. > :24:06.perfected. But its supporters have to reform it, we have to reform it.
:24:06. > :24:12.If we don't reform it, we leave it to its enemies and they'll make a
:24:12. > :24:18.pig's ear of it. APPLAUSE
:24:18. > :24:26.Now we must move on. You can join in the debate from home by texting
:24:26. > :24:33.or Twitter. The panellist tonight is a person from blog conspiracy
:24:33. > :24:37.and he's at the BBC extra text account. You can press red to see
:24:37. > :24:44.what others are saying. Let's change the topic and take a
:24:44. > :24:51.question from Karl Timberlake? politicians who court celebrity
:24:51. > :24:55.debase the honour of their own profession?
:24:55. > :25:01.APPLAUSE Well, I can't imagine who you are
:25:01. > :25:08.thinking of! Maybe the cap fits to all three politicians, I don't know.
:25:08. > :25:13.But, Camilla Cavendish, you start on this? Well, I have to admire
:25:13. > :25:18.Nadine, whom I assume your question is directed, for going out...
:25:18. > :25:21.necessarily you say. Prescott is it?! Cagey about it now? The cap
:25:21. > :25:26.fits and they've been doing some advertising, maybe. The question
:25:26. > :25:29.was, do politicians who court celebrity debase the honour? I have
:25:29. > :25:33.to admire Nadine for going to the jungle. I wouldn't have had the
:25:33. > :25:36.courage to do it but I would also say if I was an MP I don't think I
:25:36. > :25:41.would have done it because I don't think it was really the right thing
:25:41. > :25:46.to do. I know you have got a great line on it and you will defend it,
:25:46. > :25:50.but I just feel, as a woman, people are so cynical about politics and
:25:50. > :25:54.particularly women in politics. I think a lot of women MPs feel that
:25:54. > :25:59.they are seen as shallow or they're self-interested and I suppose
:25:59. > :26:04.that's maybe why I feel I wouldn't have done that. You would have felt
:26:04. > :26:08.uncomfortable. Right. Ed Davey? a certain extent we are all in the
:26:08. > :26:12.public eye and we are all wanting people to see us and hear from us.
:26:12. > :26:17.What do you think about this publicity? Focus leaflets in my
:26:18. > :26:24.constituencies and things like that. Your junior minister courts more
:26:24. > :26:29.publicity than you do. Seriously, what I want to do is answer the
:26:29. > :26:32.question and the point is, I think an MPs job is to represent their
:26:32. > :26:36.constituents. I do two advice surgeries almost every week so
:26:37. > :26:40.people come and see me face-to-face with their problems, whether it's
:26:40. > :26:47.benefits. Was she right to do that from the jungle? She could haven't
:26:47. > :26:50.done it from the jungle. I saw her eating sheep testicles, it made my
:26:50. > :26:56.stomach children. That's not the thing people elect their MPs to do.
:26:56. > :27:01.They should be campaigning hard for them, being there to represent them.
:27:01. > :27:05.Nadine will say 16 million people watch that programme, fewer than
:27:05. > :27:14.watch this programme, but the point is, what should an MP be doing?
:27:14. > :27:18.It's in their constituency and it's in Parliament.
:27:18. > :27:24.APPLAUSE Was the Conservative Party right to punish her by removing the
:27:24. > :27:27.whip? That's a matter for the Conservatives. Of course it is!
:27:27. > :27:32.What is your view?! APPLAUSE
:27:32. > :27:36.Well, if a Liberal Democrat... APPLAUSE
:27:36. > :27:42.If a Liberal Democrat MP would have done that, the whip would have been
:27:42. > :27:47.withdrawn. Nadine Dorries, in your own defence? Parliament was
:27:47. > :27:50.actually on holiday for nine of the 12 days I was in the jungle if you
:27:50. > :27:54.include the weekends either side. I worked through the summer recess
:27:54. > :27:59.because I was going and didn't take any holiday, only had four days'
:27:59. > :28:03.holiday in the wheel year because I knew I was doing this. We had a
:28:03. > :28:07.very in-depth meeting about this that I would be the first out. How
:28:07. > :28:11.did we know that? We looked at the fan base of everybody taking part.
:28:11. > :28:16.The small Estefan club was Ashley Roberts of 239,000 fans in the UK.
:28:16. > :28:21.I don't have a fan club, believe it or not, so we just knew that I
:28:21. > :28:27.would be first out. Someone shouted "Not surprised" from the back.
:28:27. > :28:30.may say so. And we knew exactly what we were doing. I missed no
:28:30. > :28:37.legislation whatsoever and I missed no votes. Despite what the press
:28:37. > :28:41.may have told you, I was away for 12 days, of which Parliament
:28:41. > :28:45.weren't sitting in nine. Even you weren't in Parliament when I was in
:28:45. > :28:48.the jungle. It was the right thing to do, and I'll tell you why. Most
:28:48. > :28:52.people when they look at or speak to politicians and I know this
:28:52. > :28:58.because I used to feel like this as well, I used to think, whatever,
:28:58. > :29:01.you know, less than 20% of people went out and voted recently in the
:29:01. > :29:05.PCC elections. The people are engaging in politics and with
:29:05. > :29:09.politicians and they're dropping like a stone in terms of numbers.
:29:09. > :29:15.People are losing interest. The only way politicians are presented,
:29:15. > :29:19.usually to people, is via the printed media. I think it's one
:29:20. > :29:28.million people watch this out of 65 million people. I beg your pardon.
:29:28. > :29:33.How many people watch this? million? It's nothing like...
:29:33. > :29:36.be honest, 2.5 million to 3 million people. I thought you would have
:29:36. > :29:40.done your in-depth research before you came on. It's my fifth time,
:29:40. > :29:43.I've forgot! It's a very select number of people who're interested
:29:43. > :29:46.in politics, they watch this programme, not the people who
:29:46. > :29:50.aren't interested. I did think long and hard about it. I'll tell you
:29:50. > :29:56.what happens to me now when I go into my constituency. The teenagers
:29:56. > :30:06.really want to talk to me. The teenagers want to know what's going
:30:06. > :30:08.
:30:08. > :30:15.They say are you Nadine Dorries, are you the MP? I like the fact
:30:15. > :30:19.that they say, "Are you the MP?" They ask me a a lot of questions
:30:19. > :30:22.and they usually are about I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!.
:30:22. > :30:25.When they put a cross next to my name and they will know who they
:30:25. > :30:33.are voting for and I think that's important because quite often they
:30:33. > :30:37.don't. I notice the Labour Party have gone on to Dancing On Ice, he
:30:37. > :30:41.is paid and -- she is paid and I hope she does well because I would
:30:41. > :30:45.like to see politicians doing different things in a different
:30:45. > :30:48.form mat, finding out what they are like other than on the green
:30:48. > :30:52.benches or on Forums like this because there are a lot of people
:30:52. > :30:56.who don't watch this programme or read the newspapers that we engage
:30:56. > :31:00.with. You, sir, on the front row? Now to
:31:00. > :31:06.the not think there is a worry if you go on the public television
:31:06. > :31:14.programmes how the media portray you? That's an interesting point
:31:14. > :31:18.actually. And the man up there, you sir? Sympathetic as I am to your
:31:18. > :31:23.dedication to your job and the fact that you did move your holiday and
:31:23. > :31:26.I am sure you did work very hard over that summer holiday. Do you
:31:26. > :31:31.genuinely think that you did good for your constituency in that time
:31:31. > :31:35.in the jungle? I can only tell you the reaction of my constituents.
:31:35. > :31:37.You have And that's the important thing to know which has been
:31:38. > :31:41.tremendous. They know you as a celebrity on
:31:41. > :31:46.television. They don't know more about your policies as a result,
:31:46. > :31:49.they are not asking you about your policies. How was it meeting those
:31:50. > :31:55.other celebrities? They are and in fact... The man in the white shirt
:31:55. > :32:01.there. Diyou really believe that ITV would let you harp on in the
:32:01. > :32:10.jungle about your anti-abortion views and other right-wing views?
:32:10. > :32:15.No, I did not say they would either. John Bird? I have never said that I
:32:16. > :32:24.thought that is what I thought would happen. It is entertainment.
:32:25. > :32:32.It is a watershed moment when we realise that we need a different
:32:32. > :32:35.kind of of politics, we need our representatives, but it does shout
:32:35. > :32:41.out to the world in general that we need to change the kind of people
:32:41. > :32:47.who go into politics. I would like some firemen, I would like some
:32:47. > :32:54.nurses, I would like some people who had real experience and not
:32:55. > :32:58.just in publicity. The other thing I would like more participatory
:32:58. > :33:02.democracy, rather than representational democracy, which
:33:02. > :33:06.means that you lot have to join with people like me and try to do
:33:06. > :33:10.something profound about making our communities work and making our
:33:10. > :33:13.society work. And the problem is that we are all looking at
:33:13. > :33:20.Parliament to answer so many problems and they are not answering
:33:20. > :33:24.them. The answer lies with us in the same way around poverty, the
:33:24. > :33:28.answer lies with the poor. What about Nadine Dorries and the
:33:28. > :33:32.jungle? Briefly. I am a nurse. I was a nurse.
:33:32. > :33:35.I am glad you are a nurse. I thought you were a fireman!
:33:35. > :33:39.But the point is, I didn't know this lady, I don't watch that
:33:39. > :33:45.programme. When they asked me on, I was going to jump at the chance
:33:45. > :33:49.because I wanted to be up there saying Big Issue, Big Issue, but
:33:49. > :33:54.they changed their mind. If the lady feels she can prove that she
:33:54. > :33:58.is helping her constituents better than a lot of MPs help their
:33:58. > :34:01.constituents, great, but I would agree with the guy over here and
:34:01. > :34:06.the guy there that you have probably handed the argument over
:34:06. > :34:11.to the media and the media are not that interested in the real, deep,
:34:11. > :34:14.local politics. Yes? Well, Nadine mentioned low
:34:15. > :34:18.voter turnout is a reason for thinking the jungle was a good idea.
:34:18. > :34:23.Do you not think that one of the reasons that the public are losing
:34:23. > :34:26.faith in politicians is the disturbing similarities in the
:34:26. > :34:31.mechanics in politics and the mechanics of celebrity and the
:34:31. > :34:38.focus on spin and PR which is one of the main reasons why people
:34:38. > :34:43.don't trust politicians anymore? APPLAUSE
:34:43. > :34:48.John Prescott, you have attracted publicity in your time? I think you
:34:48. > :34:51.should go, John. Have you ever court it had? I was
:34:51. > :34:59.invited to do this programme and so was my wife.
:34:59. > :35:04.To go into the jungle p I didn't want to to do it because there
:35:04. > :35:08.wasn't any en-suite facilities. If the people don't like it, they vote
:35:08. > :35:12.them out. Nadine made that decision, I wouldn't have made that decision.
:35:12. > :35:16.I remember living in a council house, I think it was in Liverpool,
:35:16. > :35:20.looking at the difficulties people had living on that income. Now each
:35:20. > :35:25.can make a decision, but we get invited into situations that almost
:35:25. > :35:31.become celebrities. I didn't choose to be a celebrity, when a fella hit
:35:31. > :35:36.me with an egg and I disagreed, but I was turned almost as a celebrity,
:35:36. > :35:39.I went on Mr and Mrs with the wife for �30,000 for charity. And that
:35:40. > :35:43.was an opportunities because the media wants to have celebrities.
:35:43. > :35:50.There is a chance you could get �30,000 for a charity and it seemed
:35:50. > :35:53.worth doing and they see the other side of you. I am a serious
:35:53. > :35:57.politician who has done lots of of things for changes, I have never
:35:57. > :36:01.done a job anywhere else, I have done that. But in the process, the
:36:01. > :36:04.press and the media will turn you into some of the things you do into
:36:04. > :36:09.a celebrity and you have to live with that, but as long as you can
:36:09. > :36:15.use that power sometimes, bringing home to people you have known and
:36:15. > :36:21.acting in the good, well it is the safety at sea.
:36:21. > :36:24.So you are on her side? I think she is entitled to make that judgement
:36:24. > :36:26.and if the constituents don't like it, they have a chance to put her
:36:26. > :36:36.out. Why Why didn't you go into the
:36:36. > :36:42.
:36:42. > :36:47.jungle? Did you see Galloway? APPLAUSE That wasn't the jungle.
:36:47. > :36:50.but I bet he would have preferred to have been in the jungle than
:36:50. > :36:56.drinking the milk out of that woman's hands.
:36:56. > :37:04.The woman there? Does the panel agree that the best way to get the
:37:04. > :37:10.public's attention is to eat testicles out of a bikini? Well, I
:37:10. > :37:13.guess they always say you get the politician you deserve. If it has
:37:13. > :37:17.made us more interested, that's the answer. I don't think it has made
:37:17. > :37:24.people more interested in politics and that's why it was a mistake to
:37:24. > :37:27.have done it. Kate Hennessy? David Cameron
:37:27. > :37:34.claimed that the NHS was safe in his hands. Given the cuts and
:37:34. > :37:44.closures around the country, is this still the case? David Cameron
:37:44. > :37:44.
:37:44. > :39:34.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 110 seconds
:39:34. > :39:40.claims the NHS was safe in his In. So they can put their voice to
:39:40. > :39:44.him. They can represent their people and we will have to await
:39:44. > :39:47.his decision. The A&E here is being closed
:39:47. > :39:56.because of a merger because the neighbouring lot went bust and were
:39:56. > :40:03.taken over. I want to draw you to the UK
:40:03. > :40:07.Statistics Authority. The UK Statistics Authority says in 2011,
:40:07. > :40:11.2012, the expenditure is less than it was before. The expenditure is
:40:12. > :40:16.going down. True or false? Well, when we set the Spending Review, we
:40:16. > :40:20.were saying that NHS expenditure would be kept at the right level.
:40:20. > :40:24.Under the Labour proposal... Were you right? They were going up.
:40:24. > :40:29.Under the Labour proposals, they were going to cut NHS spending.
:40:29. > :40:34.Hold on. The spokesman for Labour at the moment has said that they
:40:34. > :40:37.would cut health spending. Let's talk about your Central
:40:37. > :40:40.Government. The statistics show that spend something lower. Well, I
:40:41. > :40:45.haven't seen that report. What I have seen is the spending plans
:40:45. > :40:48.that we set out in 2010 and they show that over this Parliament,
:40:48. > :40:52.spending on the health will continue to go up. John Prescott?
:40:52. > :40:56.Well, does it mean that what the statistics people are saying in
:40:56. > :40:59.real terms you are spending less? You might say it is to do with the
:40:59. > :41:05.debt and blame everybody else for that, but that is happening and he
:41:06. > :41:10.said it would not happen. It is another promise... And why are you
:41:10. > :41:19.proposing to cut it? I don't know the quote that you have got. He is
:41:19. > :41:24.asking you what doested statistical body say? They say it is in fact
:41:24. > :41:30.reduced. I have been saying that the spending plans... I know what
:41:30. > :41:34.you are saying, what about the cuts? I have seen some of the of
:41:34. > :41:39.the health reforms that are really difficult that that we have put, we
:41:40. > :41:44.are putting power gh power in the hands of local GPs. Under Labour
:41:44. > :41:52.all the decisions were made centrally. They didn't take account
:41:52. > :41:55.of what what what was happening in local communities. I have to say
:41:55. > :42:00.John, our reforms, yes, they are difficult, but we are trying to
:42:00. > :42:03.make sure that local people have a voice and I hope they have a voice
:42:03. > :42:08.here in Lewisham. The woman in the front row? That
:42:08. > :42:14.really isn't true, the views of the people in Lewisham, the views of
:42:14. > :42:20.the GPs in Lewisham have been ignored by Kershaw.
:42:20. > :42:23.Who is the man in charge of the man in charge of the Trust? He is the
:42:23. > :42:30.Trust administrator. And the plan for Lewisham Hospital was hidden
:42:30. > :42:34.away in an annex to an appendix in the draft report. It was not in the
:42:34. > :42:39.con consultation document and when I looked at the plan, every single
:42:39. > :42:43.entrance to the hospital was going to be sold off and our brand-new
:42:43. > :42:53.A&E, maternity care and urgent care centre were going to be part of the
:42:53. > :43:01.
:43:01. > :43:04.land that would be sold off. APPLAUSE
:43:04. > :43:06.There is a problem here because you have a particular issue here in
:43:06. > :43:09.Lewisham as other parts of the country do. The question was a more
:43:09. > :43:11.general question and Nadine Dorries perhaps you would like to answer
:43:11. > :43:15.that which Tories claimed the NHS was safe in their hands. The
:43:15. > :43:20.statistics show spending is not keeping up with the real cost of
:43:20. > :43:24.the NHS. Do you still argue that it is safe in Tory hands? I I do and
:43:24. > :43:27.there is a commit m to increase db -- commitment to increase real-time
:43:27. > :43:30.spending. Can you say that again? There is a
:43:30. > :43:34.commitment to continue increased spending in the NHS. There is a
:43:34. > :43:40.commitment to that. But spending or spending in real
:43:40. > :43:46.terms? Spending in real terms. So why is the statisticsical
:43:46. > :43:51.authority saying that has not happened? I have not heard of them.
:43:51. > :43:56.Andrew Dilnot, he is a well respected figure, you know Dilnot,
:43:56. > :44:00.he said it. I don't take my information from Dilnot.
:44:00. > :44:06.You take it from Cameron then? Well, he is wrong.
:44:06. > :44:10.Well, what I do know and I have looked at it today and I have
:44:10. > :44:16.spoken to the protesters about what is happening in this situation. I
:44:16. > :44:23.know that the South London Trust has two hospitals in it which in
:44:23. > :44:30.1998 were sat up on a PFI agree which means one hospital pays �36
:44:30. > :44:34.million and another �35 million a year in interest rate payments. How
:44:34. > :44:39.Gordon Brown and Ed Balls thought that a hospital would exist with
:44:39. > :44:45.that level of debt and unfortunately, Lewisham which was
:44:45. > :44:50.set upon a better system, it performs well and it is a good
:44:50. > :44:55.hospital, has been looked at by Kershaw to come in and Lewisham is
:44:55. > :44:59.coming in to save the bad bad financial financial arrangements
:44:59. > :45:03.that were set-up for the other two hospitals.
:45:04. > :45:07.How is that fair? I trained as a nurse in a hospital that is very
:45:07. > :45:11.much like Lewisham, I have one in my constituency, were people are
:45:11. > :45:14.born, they have their babies, they die, they have their major
:45:14. > :45:17.illnesses, it is a hospital that people care about because it is
:45:17. > :45:22.such a part of the community and the reason why that hospital is
:45:22. > :45:25.under threat now is because what Gordon Brown and Ed Balls set up
:45:25. > :45:34.for the other two hospitals in the past and that is shame on the
:45:34. > :45:39.previous Labour Government. I hope it is saved and and Jeremy Hunt
:45:39. > :45:44.made no decision yet. The decision will be made in the future. He is
:45:44. > :45:48.going to look at it. I do know this, I know there is a xaint there is --
:45:48. > :45:52.xaint. I spoke to the protesters and they said what you have said,
:45:53. > :45:58.about clinicians, local people and patients, nursing staff, they were
:45:58. > :46:02.not listened to. I tomorrow, will speak to to Jeremy Hunt and take
:46:02. > :46:06.those message back to Jeremy, because if my party is about
:46:06. > :46:09.anything, it professes to be about localism and if it is about
:46:09. > :46:19.localism then it will take those people's opinions into account.
:46:19. > :46:23.
:46:23. > :46:27.Will you go with her tomorrow? Actually, tomorrow I'm in my
:46:27. > :46:30.constituency. Simon Hughes has put in a submission to the
:46:30. > :46:35.administrator and Liberal Democrats locally are campaigning on it and I
:46:35. > :46:39.know the local MPs, because Jeremy Hunt said they'll meet him and
:46:39. > :46:42.that's how it should be. Back to Kate Hennessey's question, which
:46:42. > :46:46.was the NHS Scaife in David Cameron's hands. A lot of people
:46:46. > :46:51.don't feel that because of this issue. But back to the point. You,
:46:51. > :46:58.Sir, on the left? The coalition Government broke its pledge not to
:46:58. > :47:02.introduce any top down change by introducing the biggest top down
:47:02. > :47:05.social care and health bill. It's the biggest introduced by this
:47:05. > :47:11.coalition Government. Do you feel that because you work in the NHS or
:47:11. > :47:16.are a patient? I work in the NHS. You work in it? Yes. As what?
:47:16. > :47:21.doctor. And the coalition is pushing on more than �20 billion
:47:21. > :47:25.worth of savings over the next three years and the NHS Bill, total
:47:25. > :47:30.funding is about �85 billion, giving an idea of some perspective
:47:30. > :47:40.about it. A Scaife hospital locally is about to close, now make a
:47:40. > :47:46.
:47:46. > :47:51.judgment, is the NHS Scaife with this coalition Government?
:47:51. > :47:56.APPLAUSE I was very disappointed, as you were, that the Health Bill
:47:56. > :47:59.last year focused so exclusively on structures and moving the chess
:47:59. > :48:04.pieces around for something that is quite expensive is sucking up a lot
:48:04. > :48:11.of money and a lot of energy at a time when the service needs to save
:48:11. > :48:16.money. I was also disaed that because it was so focused on
:48:16. > :48:23.structures it wasn't focused on the vital issue for patients which is
:48:23. > :48:32.nursing care. People were having to drink water from vases. Those are
:48:32. > :48:37.extreme examples but there are actually too many of those examples.
:48:37. > :48:44.There was some fundamental failures in the NHS. If you come back to
:48:44. > :48:49.Lewisham. That's what's happened in the South London care trust. They
:48:49. > :48:52.haven't been able to manage things. I had a couple of calls from
:48:52. > :48:58.doctors because they knew I was coming on the programme, and it's
:48:58. > :49:02.very clear to me that it's not sustainable that they are spending
:49:02. > :49:05.�70 million a year propping up one hospital, you are taking that from
:49:05. > :49:09.another hospital to prop it up so it's not free money and you have
:49:09. > :49:14.got to stop and put better management in.
:49:14. > :49:17.I thought, sometimes you have to close things. We can't all live in
:49:17. > :49:21.a world when we pretend every single thing has to open and there
:49:21. > :49:27.are some A&Es that will have to close. This area, it seems very
:49:27. > :49:33.surprising to me that after a very rushed consultation, they're saying
:49:33. > :49:41.they want to close Lewisham A&E and move people what, five miles down
:49:41. > :49:46.to Woolwich, quite a long way. They are actually in a way, all that's
:49:46. > :49:51.doing is rewarding the bad management.
:49:51. > :49:55.APPLAUSE Lewisham Hospital is a solvent
:49:55. > :49:58.hospital, giving perfectly good care. A lot of people care about it.
:49:58. > :50:04.There is apparently a proposal which I think Jeremy Hunt should
:50:04. > :50:08.look at which is Lewisham Trust said it's happy to go in and take
:50:08. > :50:13.over Woolwich and try and apply better management to it. That's a
:50:13. > :50:18.way out of this problem and Jeremy Hunt should give that a try.
:50:18. > :50:21.APPLAUSE John Bird? Well, I was speaking to
:50:21. > :50:26.people outside and one of them suggested to me, and I hope it's
:50:26. > :50:31.not true, that there's a bit of gerrymandering going on here, that
:50:31. > :50:37.what you have got is Lewisham because it's largely probably a
:50:37. > :50:42.leftish or working class area is hit while the other areas which are
:50:42. > :50:46.more likely to vote Conservative are going to be left with their
:50:46. > :50:51.hospitals. That's not true. APPLAUSE
:50:51. > :50:56.That may be a scurryless piece of information which I've now passed
:50:56. > :51:00.on to you. I think as a person who's used the hospital system on
:51:00. > :51:05.and off for many years, with many broken toes and noses, I can tell
:51:05. > :51:11.you that probably since the mid 80s, the National Health Service has
:51:11. > :51:19.been in a permanent state of rebuilding, renaming, rethis,
:51:19. > :51:28.rethat. I think we must try and find a way of stopping this
:51:28. > :51:32.permanent state of repainting, problems that we are facing. I also
:51:32. > :51:35.want to ask the leading question, which I think all of us who're
:51:35. > :51:40.concerned about health should ask, why is it that the National Health
:51:40. > :51:44.Service, which was started as a National Health Service, which was
:51:44. > :51:49.more about self-health so people would make themselves healthy, why
:51:49. > :51:54.is it that only 1% of the budget of the National Health Service is
:51:54. > :52:04.spent on prevention? We know that prevention is much better than cure.
:52:04. > :52:07.
:52:07. > :52:12.OK. I see from the clock we only have a few minutes left. You are
:52:12. > :52:15.looking very keen to come in. Very quick, if you promise? Thank you. I
:52:15. > :52:19.don't think the NHS is Scaife at all in David Cameron's hands
:52:19. > :52:22.because he has actually quite blatantly lied. Nadine, if you are
:52:22. > :52:27.going to see Jeremy Hunt tomorrow, would you take some of us with you
:52:27. > :52:35.because we are trying to get a meeting with him and he doesn't
:52:35. > :52:41.want to talk to us because he thinks this is a sham. You can meet
:52:41. > :52:45.her after the programme. I want to get to one other topic before we
:52:45. > :52:49.end tonight. Damon Briggs? Should David Cameron take notice of the US
:52:49. > :52:54.warning not to leave the European Union? Should David Cameron take
:52:54. > :52:58.notice? A shot has been fired across his bow by saying America is
:52:58. > :53:02.against any decision on that. The Irish Prime Minister said exactly
:53:02. > :53:12.the same, it would be a disaster if we left the European Union. Germany
:53:12. > :53:17.pitched in today saying you can't black other states, it's neither
:53:17. > :53:21.wise nor advisable to open the box -- blackmail. We think the Prime
:53:21. > :53:25.Minister will make a speech on this, it's very much on the agenda.
:53:25. > :53:30.Should the Government take notice of what the Americans are saying?
:53:30. > :53:34.Ed Davey? Yes, when our closest allie, the United States, and the
:53:35. > :53:38.Irish and Germans, but not just that, British business people, are
:53:38. > :53:42.saying that we must be careful, David Cameron must be very careful,
:53:42. > :53:46.we don't want to sleep walk out of the European Union, they are saying
:53:46. > :53:49.it for a very good reason. First of all, they are saying it because
:53:49. > :53:54.they know it's in Britain's economic interests to be in the
:53:54. > :53:57.European Union. Jobs are what's critical. We need jobs and trade
:53:57. > :54:01.for the European Union. Are you saying David Cameron's got it
:54:01. > :54:06.wrong? We haven't heard the speech yet, but what I do think is, if you
:54:06. > :54:10.listen to what the Americans are... Referendums? What the Americans are
:54:10. > :54:14.saying is that we have got greater influence if we are in the European
:54:14. > :54:17.Union. I think that's what Beijing probably thinks, I think New Delhi
:54:17. > :54:21.and the world thinks that the UK has more influence and is stronger
:54:21. > :54:25.and more secure if it's in the European Union. Let me give you one
:54:25. > :54:28.other example about why I think Britain should stay in the European
:54:28. > :54:32.Union. The cooperation that we are having now with European colleagues
:54:32. > :54:36.on tackling crime is not talked about but it's really significant.
:54:36. > :54:42.This country's threatened by international crime, Mafia,
:54:42. > :54:46.organised crime, human trafficking, drugs. You have to be in the EU to
:54:46. > :54:51.control crime? No, seriously, it helps us... I'm not saying you are
:54:51. > :54:57.not being serious, but is it relevant? Very. Until we have the
:54:57. > :55:01.European arrest warrant, rapists and murderers are going to Spain
:55:01. > :55:05.and escaping the law. The European Union brought in the arrest warrant
:55:05. > :55:09.and those wicked people are serving time behind bars, that's the sort
:55:09. > :55:15.of thing we can get by staying in the European Union. That's not the
:55:15. > :55:22.point that was being made by the US or the Irish or Germans. We only
:55:22. > :55:26.have a couple of minutes left, I'm afraid. Can I disagree with Ed very
:55:26. > :55:30.briefly? Yes, that would be great. Ed's portraiting the US message as
:55:30. > :55:33.a sign of our weakness really. I think it's a sign of our strength.
:55:33. > :55:39.We are the fifth largest economy many the world. We are the only
:55:39. > :55:43.country in the European Union which has a really functioning mill Tyre.
:55:43. > :55:46.-- military. When America wants to go into war, whether you agree with
:55:46. > :55:49.that or not, it doesn't pick up the phone to Brussels, but London. It
:55:49. > :55:55.wants us in the European Union because we are strong and I think
:55:55. > :55:59.there's too much defeatism about this issue. We can, if we negotiate
:55:59. > :56:02.properly, negotiate some of those powers back. I don't want to go
:56:02. > :56:07.into the drug laundering or the crime, but there are powers that we
:56:07. > :56:13.need to take back. We don't want to be run by Europe. The working time
:56:13. > :56:17.directive... I said we had a couple of minutes... Let's not be
:56:17. > :56:22.defeatist. Let's not be defeatist about what the Government is
:56:22. > :56:28.intending to do by negotiation. It's about our strength. John Bird,
:56:28. > :56:33.briefly, if you would? Briefly, I think the problem with Europe is
:56:33. > :56:36.that nobody has really educated us correctly as to what is actually
:56:37. > :56:40.happening, what are our advantages or disadvantages? There are many
:56:40. > :56:46.disadvantages. The greatest disadvantage for me is when I hear
:56:46. > :56:50.some of those plans that come out of Strasbourg and the other places
:56:50. > :56:55.where you actually think there is another Government telling us what
:56:55. > :57:00.to do which we would don't that way, we'd do it totally different. There
:57:01. > :57:06.are too little understandings of the pluses and minuses. I would
:57:06. > :57:11.like a referendum. I would like one based on the fact that it was done
:57:11. > :57:15.because we had the cognitive ability to understand what were the
:57:15. > :57:20.pluses or minuses on should we stay in or should we go out.
:57:20. > :57:24.APPLAUSE John Prescott, faced with the
:57:24. > :57:29.warnings from America, Germany and Ireland, what is your reaction?
:57:29. > :57:34.Just to say, I led a campaign against going into the Common
:57:34. > :57:38.Market, we had a referendum and we lost. They don't come easy that way.
:57:38. > :57:41.These are global problems and we need probably solutions.
:57:41. > :57:46.Environment and Kyotos are examples of that. You have to negotiate with
:57:46. > :57:51.these, Ed. Europe is an important card. Don't lose sight of America.
:57:51. > :57:55.America looks to its own interests, not ours. They like our acceptable
:57:55. > :57:59.face in Europe, but what they do, if you look at the climate change,
:57:59. > :58:02.they refused internationally and still do, to join up to a global
:58:02. > :58:05.solution because that is in their interests. You are saying ignore
:58:06. > :58:11.the advice coming from America? Listen to it but don't forget that
:58:11. > :58:13.the Americans are looking after their interests, not our interests
:58:13. > :58:21.and sometimes we are the acceptable face.
:58:21. > :58:25.Nadine, very briefly? We spend �53 million a day from the UK into
:58:25. > :58:30.Europe. One day of that should save Lewisham Hospital. I would like not
:58:30. > :58:32.to send that money to Europe every day and I think the Americans
:58:32. > :58:36.should look after America's businesses and we should look after
:58:36. > :58:41.our own thank you very much. Thank you. Well, we must stop.
:58:41. > :58:45.We'll come back to that topic no doubt next week and maybe the week
:58:45. > :58:52.after. We are in Lincoln next week and the week after that we'll be in
:58:52. > :58:55.Weymouth. Join us, by amaying on the website -- applying on the