:00:07. > :00:17.Tonight we are in the Cathedral city of Lincoln, and welcome to
:00:17. > :00:18.
:00:18. > :00:23.Question Time. Good evening to you at home. Welcome to our audience
:00:23. > :00:27.here, and to our panel, the Conservative Party chairman, Grant
:00:27. > :00:31.Shapps, Labour's shadow Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Caroline
:00:31. > :00:36.Flint, the leader of the UK Independence Party, Nigel Farage,
:00:36. > :00:41.the chairman of the pro-EU lobby group, Business for New Europe,
:00:41. > :00:51.Roland Rudd, and the Professor Of classics at Cambridge University,
:00:51. > :00:54.
:00:54. > :00:59.Mary Beard. APPLAUSE
:00:59. > :01:02.Thank you. Our first question, from Andy Pearson, please. Lincoln has
:01:02. > :01:08.seen JJB, Sony, Jessops and now HMV fall victim. Soon everything will
:01:08. > :01:14.be boarded up. Is the Internet killing the high street?
:01:14. > :01:21.All these shops going, everything will be board up. Is the the
:01:21. > :01:26.internet killing the high street. Caroline Flint? There is no doubt
:01:26. > :01:29.that buying online has transformed the way people shop. If I look at
:01:29. > :01:35.my three children the way they shop is very different from the way die
:01:35. > :01:43.still, and the way my family and grandparents did. One of the issues
:01:43. > :01:46.raised this week is firstly how shops like HMV, Blockbuster as we
:01:46. > :01:51.heard about today, and Jessops, have managed to deal with the
:01:51. > :01:55.challenge of the internet. The other side of it is, is it a fair
:01:55. > :02:00.situation where it does seem that those on our high street have to
:02:00. > :02:04.meet certain requirements that the online shopping services don't? I
:02:04. > :02:11.think we have to recognise people want to shop in a different way but
:02:11. > :02:15.we do have to look at whether there should be a fairer way to get a
:02:15. > :02:20.better level playing field. There are issues I understand about for
:02:20. > :02:26.example the way free postage can be provided. Certain taxations aren't
:02:26. > :02:30.as heavy on the online services. And also don't forget at this
:02:30. > :02:34.present time with VAT that's hitting the retail side of things
:02:34. > :02:38.as well. So it is that rather than recession that's the problem?
:02:39. > :02:43.think it is a number of things. Recession is playing its part. We
:02:43. > :02:47.did ask for a reduction on VAT, because we thought it would help
:02:47. > :02:53.shops on the high streets. But there are other aspects, the way we
:02:53. > :02:56.shop today than in the past and how businesses keep up to date and keep
:02:56. > :03:00.maybe shop front and online services. But there is also a
:03:00. > :03:06.concern with Amazon and other organisations about whether they
:03:06. > :03:12.are paying their fair share of tax. That's worth looking at as well.
:03:12. > :03:17.Grant Shapps? I used to be the Shops Minister. We asked Mary
:03:17. > :03:21.Portas to do a review. I accepted 27 of her 28 recommendations. On
:03:21. > :03:27.the high street it's a real battle, as Caroline said. You are up
:03:27. > :03:31.against the online world. We are all using online. When I looked at
:03:31. > :03:39.HMV and Blockbuster, they are in parts of the market where people
:03:39. > :03:43.can download rather than visit the shop. There were 20.5 million
:03:43. > :03:48.albums downloaded last year, a quarter up on the year before. How
:03:49. > :03:52.can any business like HMV survive? The high street has to change and
:03:52. > :03:59.is changing. She Sid weren't acting quickly enough and wondered whether
:03:59. > :04:02.the whole thing was a PR stunt. know she's been pleased to hear
:04:02. > :04:11.that we've adopted almost everything that she suggested.
:04:12. > :04:16.in the last few months? Well, we've got lots. I want to make a wider
:04:16. > :04:19.point. This is about HMV, blockbuster, Play, Comet. The
:04:19. > :04:23.interesting thing is you might be guided to think that therefore all
:04:23. > :04:30.the companies are closing down. Actually one of the interesting
:04:30. > :04:35.things is the more, there were more new companies formed last year,
:04:36. > :04:40.450,000 of them. It is not a one- day street. A lot of people shop
:04:40. > :04:46.online but it comes down to investment. If you go to any high
:04:46. > :04:51.street in the UK - I'm from Grimsby - it is gloomy, boarded up. Why
:04:51. > :04:56.would you want to go there and spend your money when it is easier
:04:56. > :05:02.to do it at home. Going to the high street these days isn't a pleasant
:05:02. > :05:06.experience. Does it matter? Absolutely. A lot of times you go
:05:06. > :05:11.there and because of no investment it is downtrodden. I think petrol
:05:11. > :05:16.prices and parking in the high street has a part to play. I think
:05:16. > :05:21.very carefully when I go down the high street now, because it
:05:21. > :05:25.involves, especially in rural Lincolnshire, maybe a 20 mile drive
:05:25. > :05:33.to Lincoln. That is petrol and it is very experience to have park.
:05:33. > :05:37.you shop online? I do, yes. Roland Rudd? Well, I think there's a role
:05:37. > :05:42.for a shop like HMV. One of the things that I hope comes out of the
:05:42. > :05:45.administration is a new HMV, a smaller... When you say
:05:45. > :05:50.administration you mean going bankrupt? Exactly. I think there's
:05:50. > :05:54.a role for it, because I think people too want to borrows and
:05:54. > :05:58.choose, as well as online. The problem for HMV, I can remember
:05:58. > :06:00.when it went from records to CDs and they were hauled in front of
:06:00. > :06:05.the Select Committee for charging too much and they were getting too
:06:05. > :06:09.many profits. So it has gone from an extraordinary success story to a
:06:09. > :06:14.terrible disaster economically. The problem is it wasn't well managed
:06:14. > :06:17.and unfortunately it has suffered from that. But I do think there's a
:06:17. > :06:24.role for it and it is important for the high street. We can't just rely
:06:24. > :06:29.on things online. Is it coinsen dental, Jessops, HMV, are you
:06:29. > :06:33.saying they were all badly managed and got their comeuppance?
:06:33. > :06:36.About 200 of these companies have gone bust, which is serious and is
:06:37. > :06:42.worrying, but unfortunately they do have to adapt and change to
:06:42. > :06:47.consumer needs. I think the problem with HMV, too many people can tell
:06:47. > :06:54.you they went into HMV stores and they didn't get what they wanted
:06:54. > :06:59.quick enough. If you can get a slimmer and more efficient HMV, it
:06:59. > :07:02.can work. I think this issue predates the internet, because in
:07:02. > :07:06.my working rural community development about five or ten years
:07:06. > :07:11.ago we were talking about out of town shopping centres killing off
:07:11. > :07:14.the high street. And large retailers like Tesco and Morrisons
:07:14. > :07:19.expanding their offer and pretending to be the retail for the
:07:19. > :07:22.high street when in fact they are not, and having a lot of impact on
:07:22. > :07:32.producers because they can drive prices down and the amount of goods
:07:32. > :07:33.
:07:33. > :07:38.that they can buy. APPLAUSE sair. It is unfortunate that HMV
:07:38. > :07:43.have gone bust but haven't they shown a lot of contempt for their
:07:43. > :07:48.customers, they were selling gift vouchers to the day until they went
:07:48. > :07:52.bust and now they are invalid? Mary Beard? I suppose if they are
:07:52. > :07:57.broke they are not allowed to sell them. You get more protection if
:07:57. > :08:00.you shop online. I think the high street is dead important but I
:08:00. > :08:07.don't share the sentiment about HMV that some people do. If you go back
:08:07. > :08:11.to the '70s, remember what it was like buying a record, you had to
:08:11. > :08:17.queue up for a booth and listen to it, and you had to wait for ages
:08:17. > :08:23.and then ages to pay. It wasn't a great retail experience. More
:08:23. > :08:27.seriously, I think that online shopping is not quite the panacea
:08:27. > :08:31.that we all think. This Christmas I was really fed up with what I
:08:31. > :08:35.remembered from last Christmas, which was all these things which
:08:35. > :08:40.said, "Your parcel should arrive in three days and here notice
:08:40. > :08:44.tracking." By the time I got it it was January 7th. So I rediscovered
:08:44. > :08:50.shopping this Christmas. I went to a real shop. I touched the stuff. I
:08:50. > :08:57.picked it up and I took it home with me. I thought there's life in
:08:58. > :09:04.this yet. Actually, online has its place but shops are nice. APPLAUSE
:09:04. > :09:08.Don't give up. Nigel Farage? think the answer is the internet is
:09:08. > :09:13.partially killing the high street, but there are two factors. One is
:09:13. > :09:18.the supermarket. We used to by groceries, horse burgers, that sort
:09:18. > :09:22.of thing. LAUGHTER But you go into these big supermarkets now and you
:09:22. > :09:27.look for example at the range of children's clothes and the price of
:09:27. > :09:30.children's clothes. They are so cheap, they are astonishing. Most
:09:30. > :09:33.responsible mothers and fathers will now go and buy clothes there
:09:33. > :09:38.because they are saving a also of money. The second big phenomenon
:09:38. > :09:43.and change is this massive growth of out of town shopping centres. I
:09:43. > :09:46.live 20 minutes away from in Kent the Bluewater Shopping Centre. It
:09:47. > :09:51.is absolutely huge. Every major retail they are exists there. I
:09:51. > :09:56.prefer the high street. I like to meet people and walk down the high
:09:56. > :10:01.street. That's because you're doing politics. Well, I don't always wear
:10:01. > :10:10.a rosette doing it. Well, maybe I do. You wouldn't buy a bra online.
:10:10. > :10:14.I have never bought a bra. You have my word on that! But if you are
:10:14. > :10:19.going shopping, and go back to perhaps the mum with a couple of
:10:19. > :10:25.kids. You go to the high street, finding a parking space is
:10:25. > :10:31.difficult. Then they charge you an outrages sum to park. Go to blue
:10:31. > :10:35.water, 10,000 places, it is safe and secure and free. You don't have
:10:35. > :10:39.to wear an umbrella. Your children, they can walk around, because you
:10:39. > :10:45.don't have passing traffic and cyclists and aggressive pedestrians.
:10:45. > :10:52.I can understand why people have opted for the out of town centre. I
:10:52. > :10:56.don't want to be too pessimistic, but we understand there are 140
:10:56. > :11:01.major retailers in very serious trouble. I'm afraid like it or not
:11:01. > :11:06.there is going to be much more retrenchment on the high street.
:11:06. > :11:13.The woman there with blonde hair. wonder what the panel think about
:11:13. > :11:19.the fact that companies like Amazon can be global and pay tax wherever.
:11:19. > :11:25.We've got to address the situation in city centres. I think that there
:11:25. > :11:29.could be a way we could finance things through direct and indirect
:11:29. > :11:33.taxation through internet. could even the balance between the
:11:33. > :11:38.high street. Grant Shapps, is that feasible? There are things we could
:11:38. > :11:41.do. Are you planning to do anything? One of the things we have
:11:41. > :11:46.done is try to spread the increase in costs of business rates, which
:11:46. > :11:51.have only in whiched for many years at the rate of inflation, but allow
:11:51. > :11:57.them to be spread over a period of time. The high streets survive when
:11:57. > :12:04.they are fun and interesting places to go. You can't have your her cut
:12:04. > :12:14.online. They need to reinvent themselves. You can join in this
:12:14. > :12:24.debate either by texting us or through Twitter.
:12:24. > :12:28.
:12:28. > :12:35.We have a special panellist tonight on Twitter, Guido faux. A question
:12:35. > :12:38.from Joanna Benton, please. public services cope with yet
:12:38. > :12:46.another influx of migrants when we open our doors to Bulgaria and
:12:46. > :12:50.Romania this time next year? This part of England has had a very
:12:50. > :12:54.large influx of immigrants to work in agriculture primarily. Can the
:12:54. > :12:58.public services cope with yet another influx Ben Bulgaria and
:12:58. > :13:04.Romania are entitled to come here next year? Nigel Farage. Not really
:13:04. > :13:09.no, and nor should they have to. I think it is completely
:13:09. > :13:14.irresponsible, wrong. In fact damn stupid, to be opening up our doors
:13:14. > :13:19.next January to 29 million people from Romania and Bulgaria. Just
:13:19. > :13:23.bear in mind that nearly 50% of the Bulgarian population are living on
:13:23. > :13:27.or below the poverty line. This is a real poverty line. People are
:13:27. > :13:32.actually struggling to eat. To give you some idea of how poor it is,
:13:32. > :13:37.the average monthly salary in Bulgaria is 200 euros a month. A
:13:37. > :13:41.pensioner gets 100 euros a month. It's a country I'm afraid in a
:13:41. > :13:45.terrible state. The judiciary is not independent. The Mafia
:13:45. > :13:50.basically runs the economy. If I was a Bulgarian I would be packing
:13:50. > :13:54.my bags now wanting to come to Britain. I feel sorry for the
:13:54. > :13:58.people in Bulgaria, but frankly, as the recent census figures showed,
:13:58. > :14:03.I've been saying that 3 million had come in in the last ten years, I
:14:03. > :14:07.was wrong. Officially the figure was 4 million. If you add the
:14:07. > :14:14.illegals, possibly 5 million. And at a time when we have youth
:14:14. > :14:18.unemployment in Britain already running it's a 21%, we do not need
:14:18. > :14:21.more oversupply... You can't do anything to prevent people coming
:14:21. > :14:31.can you? Frankly David that's why we need a referendum very quickly
:14:31. > :14:36.
:14:36. > :14:40.on our membership of the European We cannot control immigration
:14:40. > :14:43.policy into this country and be a member of the EU. I wish everybody
:14:43. > :14:53.in Bulgaria and Romania well, but it's a National Health Service,
:14:53. > :14:58.it's not there frankly for the rest of the world.
:14:59. > :15:05.APPLAUSE Grant Shapps? One thing we have done in this case is to extend
:15:05. > :15:08.the controls so people couldn't come here right at the minute that
:15:08. > :15:12.the rules changed. There was a group of eight countries that
:15:12. > :15:15.joined and there was a big movement of people. That mean this is
:15:15. > :15:19.particular releasing people able to come here now comes at the same
:15:19. > :15:22.time as they can go to places like Belgium, France and Germany and
:15:23. > :15:28.other countries, so it means they won't just necessarily come to this
:15:28. > :15:31.country on their own. We've got to think this through. One thing I did
:15:31. > :15:35.when I was Housing Minister was to introduce control force local
:15:35. > :15:40.authorities to be able to say, people need to have local residency
:15:40. > :15:44.before they can jump to the top of the housing queues. An example of
:15:44. > :15:47.how to protect some Public Services, and that's now in place and there
:15:47. > :15:51.are others, but I do say to people who take the view that we shouldn't
:15:51. > :15:56.have movement of any people at all, that's fine, we probably have a
:15:56. > :16:00.couple of million people who we'll have to call back from Spain who've
:16:00. > :16:04.gone and lived in Spain because the freedom of movement works in both
:16:04. > :16:10.directions. That is not the point at all. You have made your point.
:16:10. > :16:14.There are other people on the panel and I would like to hear from them.
:16:14. > :16:18.How many people are going to come Eric Pickles says he doesn't
:16:18. > :16:22.believe the firs he's got yet. Does the Government have any idea?
:16:22. > :16:25.problem this Government's very aware of is that the official
:16:25. > :16:29.predictions made before Poland and other countries that joined turned
:16:29. > :16:32.out to be wrong by a power of ten. The different this time is there's
:16:32. > :16:36.a lot more country who is are opening up at the same time so
:16:36. > :16:40.there are a lot more choices and people may well go to countries
:16:40. > :16:46.where there are historic connections which may be places
:16:46. > :16:53.like Germany, Belgium and others. This is where you are... This, by
:16:53. > :16:57.the way, was a negotiation that took place... Even if you went from
:16:57. > :17:02.what Nigel Farage says he wants which is the today change this, we
:17:02. > :17:05.can't change where we are. Joanna Benton's question was, can the
:17:05. > :17:08.services cope? My concern when I was in charge of social housing,
:17:08. > :17:12.for example, was concern that we couldn't cope, which is why I
:17:12. > :17:16.changed the rules there to enforce some kind of ability for local
:17:16. > :17:20.authorities to say if you have been in the area for long enough, that
:17:20. > :17:25.you have work and cone tributed to the area, that's one thing. If you
:17:25. > :17:32.have just arrived here, you won't be on the top of the list for
:17:32. > :17:38.social housing. That was a positive change.
:17:38. > :17:42.People came here to work and only 0.06% took benefits and it was a
:17:42. > :17:49.great benefit and a great thing for Britain that they came here and we
:17:49. > :17:54.benefitted enormously from them. APPLAUSE Now, when it comes to
:17:54. > :17:57.Bulgaria and Romain yarbgs as Grant says, they have many other
:17:57. > :18:02.countries to go so as well as us, but the European Union givious the
:18:02. > :18:08.right to come here, either to work, study or marry, it doesn't give you
:18:08. > :18:12.the right to come here and take benefits. It does. It doesn't.
:18:12. > :18:16.does. After three months, the Government gives them benefits. The
:18:16. > :18:20.Government can look at that, I think three months is not long
:18:20. > :18:23.enough, but we don't have to wait for any direction from Brussels, we
:18:23. > :18:26.can actually do something about that. Hang on, you said the
:18:26. > :18:32.Government didn't give you the right to get benefits, then you say
:18:32. > :18:35.after three months you do have that right? Yes. It's not long to wait,
:18:35. > :18:41.is it? No, which is why the Government should look at that.
:18:41. > :18:46.That's something that Britain can do. It's absolutely right, because
:18:46. > :18:51.we saw the Poles who came here, they came here to work. It's true
:18:51. > :18:54.what Nigel says, Romania and Bulgaria are poorer and I don't
:18:54. > :18:58.think people should get benefits after three months and the
:18:58. > :19:03.Government should look at that. can get benefits on day one if you
:19:03. > :19:08.say you are self-employed and are seeking work. The man with the red
:19:08. > :19:15.tie? Yes. When these people come from these European countries, are
:19:15. > :19:22.there any checks done on their records, criminal records? Caroline
:19:22. > :19:24.Flint? I think if somebody comes to work here and they're in a working
:19:24. > :19:27.environment where there has to be checks, they should be made but
:19:27. > :19:31.there are issues on how difficulties to check those records
:19:31. > :19:34.out and there is a discussion in Europe about some information about
:19:34. > :19:40.sharing information on people's criminal records so we can deal
:19:40. > :19:44.with that. In terms of Joanna's question about Public Services, we
:19:44. > :19:50.should be mindful of pressures put on our Public Services because it
:19:50. > :19:54.is true that when the Poland and other countries came in, the
:19:54. > :19:58.numbers that we were advised were likely to come in were an
:19:58. > :20:01.underestimation - they were. And there was concerns in communities
:20:01. > :20:04.about pressures on hospital services, on schools and housing
:20:04. > :20:07.and other factors as well. So it's right, your question, that we
:20:07. > :20:11.should be mindful of this. It's different this time because, of
:20:11. > :20:14.course, as Grant said, all the other EU member states are opening
:20:14. > :20:18.up at the same time. I think actually part of the answer is to
:20:18. > :20:23.look at some of the transitional arrangements. We have supported
:20:23. > :20:25.that we should go to the max in this situation and we will support
:20:25. > :20:30.discussions with the Government about whether there should be,
:20:30. > :20:37.given the state of our economy and other countries in the European
:20:37. > :20:41.Union, whether or not we should look for more flexibility.
:20:41. > :20:44.when? You mean when Turkey joins? Is that what you are saying? I'll
:20:44. > :20:47.explain what I'm saying. If there was a way that we could look at
:20:47. > :20:50.next year, yes I think we should, but also in terms of future
:20:50. > :20:54.expansion of the European Union, it's worth a discussion about
:20:54. > :20:58.whether other tightening up of transitional arrangements should
:20:58. > :21:03.happen. But I would say this - over 1.5 million people from this
:21:03. > :21:07.country work and live in other parts of the European Union so it
:21:07. > :21:12.works both ways in terms of flexibility of Labour and the other
:21:12. > :21:17.side of it is true as well. Huge numbers of businesses depend on our
:21:17. > :21:20.trade with the European Union. So let's refer the European Union. If
:21:20. > :21:27.we think that Nigel's answer is to walk away from this, that won't
:21:27. > :21:35.solve any of these issues and will leave us isolate and losing out.
:21:35. > :21:40.The man there in the grey? It may not be a very popular view to take
:21:40. > :21:45.amid all this Farage mania, but I personally believe that when people
:21:45. > :21:49.go out in their German cars to an Italian restaurant or a Chinese
:21:49. > :21:54.take away or a Turkish kebab house, drive home, turn on their Chinese
:21:54. > :21:59.televisions and sit down on Swedish settees and start complaining about
:21:59. > :22:04.immigration and how it's had a bad effect on our country, shouldn't
:22:04. > :22:06.they be thinking that these people have come here, had a benefit and
:22:06. > :22:14.created a diverse society that's created a better Britain, rather
:22:14. > :22:20.than a worse one? CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:22:20. > :22:23.I would like to answer this with a local perspective. I'm not sure
:22:23. > :22:30.that the national politicians' speech is always necessarily the
:22:30. > :22:34.best for seeing what is going on in one's own area and I think the most
:22:34. > :22:40.impressive single document that I've read on this issue actually
:22:40. > :22:45.comes from Boston Council. It's the task and finish group report about
:22:45. > :22:48.population and change in Lincolnshire in Boston. It does
:22:48. > :22:52.answer the question about Public Services because it looks very
:22:52. > :22:59.carefully at the changes that have been happening in Boston over the
:22:59. > :23:07.last ten years. It does identify particular management issues with
:23:07. > :23:11.an influx of any kind of population, but at the same time, what it makes
:23:11. > :23:17.absolutely clear is that David Cameron chully, we can cope with
:23:17. > :23:20.this and we can benefit from it -- is that actually, we can cope with
:23:20. > :23:24.this and we can benefit from it. European migrants have a low use of
:23:25. > :23:30.the benefits system, they have a low use of the health care system,
:23:30. > :23:36.they tend to be fit, young people. They take very, very, very small
:23:36. > :23:42.amounts of social housing, only 1% of social housing is actually
:23:42. > :23:47.occupied by people who are economic migrants. I think this report,
:23:47. > :23:52.because it actually dealt directly with local people's concerns, in
:23:52. > :24:00.one particular area with particular agricultural issues, not mass
:24:00. > :24:07.industrial issues, it really did manage to draw the right boundary
:24:07. > :24:11.between denying that there was any problem, but also not being totally
:24:11. > :24:17.catastrophic about it. Our Public Services can cope.
:24:17. > :24:24.APPLAUSE A couple more points. The woman up
:24:24. > :24:28.there on the far left? I'm sorry, I really disagree. I have a business
:24:28. > :24:33.in Boston, I have family that live in Boston. First explain, we are
:24:33. > :24:41.talking about Boston which is a 65,000 town, about 20 miles south
:24:41. > :24:46.of Lincoln, yes? Yes. We've got land at Boston and we've had major
:24:46. > :24:51.issues with workers, they've got nowhere to go, camping on our land,
:24:51. > :24:58.we can't move them off because the police aren't interested. Boston is
:24:58. > :25:05.at breaking point. All the locals can't cope any more. The services,
:25:05. > :25:08.surgeries, hospitals, I have a family member that's a midwife at
:25:08. > :25:16.Boston Pilgrim Hospital, the facilities are at breaking point
:25:16. > :25:20.because of these people coming into the country. Nothing is being done.
:25:20. > :25:23.There are hardly any locals there any more because they're all moving
:25:24. > :25:33.away. You go down to Boston High Street and it's just like you're in
:25:34. > :25:36.
:25:36. > :25:40.a foreign country. It's got to stop. APPLAUSE
:25:40. > :25:47.Are you talking mainly about the people from Poland? Lithuania, all
:25:47. > :25:52.sorts. We've had to have signs made in five different languages to say,
:25:52. > :25:57."Private land, please no camping". They are from Poland or Lithuania.
:25:57. > :26:02.I'm half Polish because my grandparents were Polish and came
:26:02. > :26:09.over during the war and fought in World War II, but we are talking
:26:09. > :26:12.now of a different generation of immigrants who're disrespectful and
:26:12. > :26:17.they are not bothered any more. were talking about Boston, do you
:26:17. > :26:20.want to respond? What I got out of the report was it was really the
:26:20. > :26:25.fact that there were huge numbers of myths about the numbers of
:26:25. > :26:32.people who've entered Boston and also the drain on Public Services
:26:32. > :26:35.and there was a rather charming addition to the report which said
:26:35. > :26:40.the maternity unit the Pilgrim Hospital had probably been kept
:26:40. > :26:44.open because of the increase in population of Boston, rather than
:26:44. > :26:48.being closed. The chief police officer of your county said what
:26:48. > :26:51.was happening was that an intolerable strain was being put on
:26:51. > :26:56.policing, hospitals and schools in Cambridgeshire, that's the kind of
:26:56. > :26:59.thing people are finding. APPLAUSE
:26:59. > :27:04.Do you want to come into this because you have been silent. You
:27:04. > :27:08.talked about housing, but what about these other issues? I had the
:27:08. > :27:12.leaders of Boston Council come to see me when I was Local Government
:27:12. > :27:15.minister. There are a lot of strain there is. They're concerned that
:27:15. > :27:20.the census information doesn't represent it. Boston is an unusual
:27:20. > :27:24.case in that regard, they are at the extreme end of the stresses on
:27:24. > :27:27.service wis I believe are very real in Boston. Overall, it's important
:27:27. > :27:33.to recognise with the two countries coming in in October, that they are
:27:33. > :27:38.able to go to 23 other countries at the same time. That's very
:27:38. > :27:43.different from when that original Polish immigration occurred with
:27:43. > :27:48.74,000 people turning up in a time where only 7,000 were expected.
:27:48. > :27:51.She's shaking her head about somewhere like Boston, if it is as
:27:51. > :27:55.you describe, would be attractive to anybody else moving there?
:27:55. > :27:59.because you have got the farming land there and you've got the
:27:59. > :28:04.farming where they employ them to pull out the cabbages and things
:28:04. > :28:10.like that. It's encouraging them to come to Boston. There is nowhere
:28:10. > :28:15.for them to go, so they are just laying on park benches, drinking.
:28:16. > :28:23.We've got a major issue with alcohol, drinking in the day around
:28:23. > :28:29.the streets, and Boston have done things with the areas. Just one
:28:29. > :28:34.point to you - why weren't indigenous boss tonians doing this
:28:34. > :28:40.work, young people who were out of work, why don't they do the work?
:28:40. > :28:47.APPLAUSE I don't know why, whether it's
:28:47. > :28:51.because it's cheaper to employ them. It's exploittive labour. What do
:28:51. > :28:55.you say? It's exploited labour? the big bosses this is a green
:28:55. > :29:00.country. They can get these people to work all the hours God sends for
:29:00. > :29:07.more often than not way below the minimum wage and for the big bosses,
:29:07. > :29:10.it's been tremendous. APPLAUSE And before 2004, the
:29:10. > :29:13.cabbages and call flowers were not rotting in fields of Lincolnshire,
:29:14. > :29:18.they were still getting picked, so the idea that without this mass
:29:18. > :29:21.influx the whole piece would fall to pieces is nonsense. We must go
:29:21. > :29:25.on now. APPLAUSE
:29:25. > :29:28.We are half way through this programme. Now, we know that the
:29:28. > :29:31.Prime Minister's speech has been postponed, the one he was going to
:29:31. > :29:36.make tomorrow in Amsterdam about how he intends to approach the
:29:36. > :29:40.issue of our relationship with the EU and the issue of the referendum.
:29:40. > :29:43.We had expected that would be tomorrow but it's not. We do have,
:29:43. > :29:48.of course, a question on what might be in the speech and what the
:29:48. > :29:52.attitude of the Government might be and it's from Rebecca Longhurst,
:29:52. > :29:55.please? Can you countries such as Norway and Switzerland have thrived
:29:55. > :29:59.outside the European Union but still have strong trading links
:29:59. > :30:09.with EU countries, should the UK follow suit. Should we have strong
:30:09. > :30:12.
:30:12. > :30:17.trading links and thrive outside Definitely no. Those two countries
:30:17. > :30:20.are different. Norway pays 80% of what we pay. For that they have no
:30:20. > :30:24.representation on the European Council, the Commission and
:30:24. > :30:28.Parliament. They have to introduce every single rule that comes out of
:30:28. > :30:32.the European Union, so I wouldn't go that way. Switzerland has 120
:30:32. > :30:37.different free trade agreements, which they've built up over decades.
:30:37. > :30:43.If we were to come out, we would have to start from scratch. Even
:30:43. > :30:47.Nigel can all his energy and vigour and vim would find that a lot of
:30:47. > :30:51.free trade agreements to have to sign if he was in charge, in trying
:30:51. > :30:54.to replicate what Switzerland has done. The reason the vast majority
:30:54. > :31:01.of successful businesses want to stay in the European Union, it is
:31:01. > :31:05.about jonds and prosperity. We do - - jobs and prosperity. We do half
:31:05. > :31:09.our trade with the European Union, half our foreign investment is from
:31:09. > :31:14.the European Union. That's why they want to stay there and I think they
:31:14. > :31:19.are right. APPLAUSE And if Norway's getting such a rough deal, why
:31:19. > :31:25.doesn't it apply to join as a full member then? Because interestingly
:31:25. > :31:29.their rural voters think that the European Union doesn't have a
:31:29. > :31:33.restrictive enough policy on agriculture. And we all think hate
:31:33. > :31:37.far too restrictive policies. They would never ever support it. But
:31:37. > :31:42.their Prime Minister would love to join the European Union and has
:31:42. > :31:46.said so on many occasions. Grant Shapps? No, I don't think we should
:31:46. > :31:49.have that same relationship. you for staying in? I believe we
:31:49. > :31:53.have a massive advantage from the single market, which we mened to
:31:53. > :31:57.pioneer in this country. It is very important in terms of jobs up and
:31:57. > :32:02.down the country. We need to have that access to the marketplace. But
:32:02. > :32:06.die also think that Europe's changing dramatically, beyond all
:32:06. > :32:11.possible imagination even ten years ago, when some people on this panel
:32:11. > :32:16.were campaigning for us to join the euro. We now know that the euro is
:32:16. > :32:19.in a lot of difficulty and they are going to have to bring those
:32:19. > :32:26.countries closer together for the 17 to co-operate. Those changes
:32:26. > :32:29.mean it is time for us to have a discussions, a debate, about the
:32:29. > :32:33.type of Europe we want going forward. I want us to be part of
:32:33. > :32:37.Europe, trading with Europe, but not having the relationship which I
:32:37. > :32:40.think is very tiring to the British people at the moment. Our view, I
:32:40. > :32:45.think it's the mainstream view, of the British people, is that it is
:32:45. > :32:50.time we had a choice about the kind of Europe that we have. Would you
:32:50. > :32:56.support a referendum on Europe A and B vote yes for staying in?
:32:56. > :33:01.want to see us be a part of Europe and I'm afraid you will have to way
:33:01. > :33:05.for the now postponed Europe speech for the details from the Prime
:33:05. > :33:09.Minister. But I do think it is right that British people have a
:33:09. > :33:14.say about this. There's a Europe that could work well for Britain.
:33:14. > :33:17.If it was more about the ideas that got us into the Common Market in
:33:17. > :33:23.the first place, which we've moved so far from. And if it was a Europe
:33:23. > :33:28.where the prosperity was put first. You need to be an engine of growth
:33:28. > :33:32.in Europe not something that layers on the bureaucracy and red tape.
:33:32. > :33:38.However the Prime Minister defines what he wants, if he doesn't get it
:33:38. > :33:44.you will still vote to stay in Again, you will have to wait...
:33:44. > :33:52.whatever it is he wants, if he doesn't get it, you will still vote
:33:52. > :33:59.to stay in? What I believe is this and I will be as clear as I can, I
:33:59. > :34:03.think there's a better deal that Britain, a better relationship that
:34:03. > :34:08.Britain can have with Europe that's more in Britain's interest. I
:34:08. > :34:12.believe we have a duty to go and negotiate and investigate that, and
:34:12. > :34:17.then make a decision as a country. Caroline Flint, do you think the
:34:17. > :34:22.Government's going the right way about this? No I don't. Norway and
:34:22. > :34:26.Switzerland, they have to pay their dues and abide by the rules but
:34:27. > :34:30.have no say in the decision making about how those rules are set. I do
:34:30. > :34:34.think David Cameron and the Government are going the wrong way
:34:34. > :34:38.about this. David Cameron is getting himself boxed in by his
:34:38. > :34:42.party. It is not about the national interest. It is about his
:34:42. > :34:48.confidence and leadership, which is weakening, in running his own party.
:34:48. > :34:51.The truth is that we do need to I think look at reform of the
:34:51. > :34:56.European Union. But any traction we have as a country to build
:34:56. > :35:01.alliances with others who are like minded in the European Union is
:35:01. > :35:06.being undermined by the statements that are made by David Cameron
:35:06. > :35:11.around an in-out referendum. And that totally dominating the debate
:35:11. > :35:15.and not letting us get on with the real issues about getting jobs and
:35:15. > :35:21.growth back into Europement that's uppermost in people's minds about
:35:21. > :35:26.their future - are they going to have a job, prosperity, tacking the
:35:26. > :35:29.issues around the eurozone, and cutting for example the EU budget,
:35:29. > :35:33.looking at how we can better support businesses in our own
:35:33. > :35:36.country. We've got all this noise about a referendum but we are not
:35:36. > :35:41.actually dealing in the here and now with the things that really are
:35:41. > :35:48.important for us as British citizens. Hold on a minute...
:35:48. > :35:54.APPLAUSE This is all very confusing. While you guys were in power for 13
:35:54. > :36:00.years you signed us up for three European treaties. I voted against
:36:00. > :36:03.Lisbon when I was in Parliament. We had no say in them at all. Your
:36:03. > :36:07.leader Ed Miliband said he doesn't feel Brussels has too much power
:36:07. > :36:12.and you are saying we should go and negotiate, a direct quote. You
:36:13. > :36:17.voted against a new law we introduced which says no more power
:36:17. > :36:20.can be passed in Europe without the say of the British people. And Ed
:36:20. > :36:23.Miliband said you might be in favour of that law. The
:36:23. > :36:29.Conservative Party is mainstream leading on Europe and you guys, the
:36:29. > :36:34.Labour Party are all over the place, following us. APPLAUSE Well, can I
:36:34. > :36:39.come back on that? Briefly. It is a nice try, Grant, but actually we
:36:39. > :36:45.did manage to get reform for example to the Common Agricultural
:36:45. > :36:49.Policy. You gave away the British rebate. What for? It was suppose to
:36:49. > :36:54.be for reform of the Common Agricultural Policy but there was
:36:54. > :36:59.no reform. We did get reforms on the Common Agricultural Policy. We
:36:59. > :37:03.did get parity on the amount we put into the European Union. You gave
:37:03. > :37:07.away billions... Don't interrupt each other, and um to an end, the
:37:07. > :37:11.if you would. There is legislation on the books which says if there's
:37:11. > :37:15.a transfer of powers from the UK there should be a referendum. We
:37:15. > :37:20.support that. We need to make reform for example by cutting the
:37:20. > :37:23.EU budget. We need to look at the ways we can better support through
:37:23. > :37:27.the rules around state aid and structural funds. I've already said
:37:27. > :37:30.we need to look at issues about countries coming in and the
:37:31. > :37:35.arrangements should be changed in the future. Before I come to the
:37:35. > :37:39.other two speakers, one or two members of audience. How can we be
:37:39. > :37:46.part of an organisation when the European outcan tell the Government
:37:46. > :37:55.of the day who or who they can not deport - a suspected terrorist last
:37:55. > :38:00.year? APPLAUSE That's not actually the EU. It is linked to it. Yes,
:38:00. > :38:02.but not directly. It is interesting that from where I'm sitting it
:38:02. > :38:07.appears that in spite of the arrangement both the Government and
:38:07. > :38:11.the opposition are saying the same thing. No. OK. We'll bring in Nigel
:38:12. > :38:17.Farage on that. I have to say that everybody from David Cameron to
:38:17. > :38:22.half this panel say, "Wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway
:38:22. > :38:27.and Switzerland?" Really? They are rich. They are happy. They are self
:38:27. > :38:30.governing. And unlike the fishermen in lyrics out of Boston, the
:38:31. > :38:36.Norwegians have 200 miles of the North Sea where all the fish in
:38:36. > :38:42.that sea are their own and they have a thriving fishing industry.
:38:42. > :38:48.APPLAUSE So,, the whole European debate... Don't forget the oil.
:38:48. > :38:57.We've got oil and shale gas now, so stop knocking Britain. Not yet.
:38:57. > :39:01.guys who supported this European project betrayed the British
:39:01. > :39:06.fishing industry. It cost 200,000 men their jobs. So shame on all of
:39:07. > :39:11.you. This debate is dominated by economic scare stories. We are told
:39:11. > :39:18.by all the parties 3 million jobs would be lost if we weren't part of
:39:19. > :39:26.the European Union. No we wouldn't. The European Union sells us far
:39:26. > :39:30.more than we sell them. Audi and Volkswagen would carry on
:39:30. > :39:32.regardless. It is all a smokescreen which really hides a bigger
:39:32. > :39:37.question that an economic debate that most people find very
:39:37. > :39:40.difficult to make their minds up on. The real question here is do we
:39:40. > :39:45.want to be a self-Europeaning democratic nation that determines
:39:45. > :39:50.her own destiny and runs her own house? Or not? That's what this
:39:50. > :39:53.comes down to. I passionately believe that we should be a self-
:39:53. > :39:58.Europeaning democracy, that we should be proud of who we are, run
:39:58. > :40:02.our own affairs, and not just trade with Europe but do far more with
:40:02. > :40:08.the rest of the world, the Commonwealth and countries like
:40:08. > :40:12.that, but... APPLAUSE But more important, more important than what
:40:12. > :40:18.I think and what this panel thinks, what's disgraceful is the way these
:40:18. > :40:22.three parties have frankly lied to us at every single general election,
:40:22. > :40:26.all promising us a referendum and then you've got Clegg who has U-
:40:26. > :40:30.turned on it, the Labour Party who U turned on it. The best we might
:40:30. > :40:34.get from David Cameron is a faint promise from the man who previously
:40:34. > :40:39.gave us a cast iron guarantee, we might get a vote in five years'
:40:39. > :40:46.time. It is not good enough. APPLAUSE I want to bring in Mary
:40:46. > :40:52.Beard. A direct Farage farrago against you. We have a burgeoning
:40:52. > :40:58.car industry now. It employs 20,000 people, 10% of our exports. If we
:40:58. > :41:05.came out of the European Union, we would have taxes on this of 5 or
:41:05. > :41:11.10%. Honda have said they would pull out. Nissan have made the same
:41:11. > :41:18.concerns. We can't come out of the biggest trading bloc in the world,
:41:18. > :41:24.for what? Ideology? It is not about self democracy. What's your answer
:41:24. > :41:29.to him when he says he wants to decide our own future If people
:41:29. > :41:32.think Europe's the most important issue and they want us to leave the
:41:32. > :41:39.European Union, people will vote UKIP and Nigel will become Prime
:41:39. > :41:45.Minister. But until then, no. APPLAUSE Mary Beard. I find it dead
:41:45. > :41:50.hard to choose between the scare stories and the simplistic little
:41:50. > :41:55.England kind of speech that Nigel's given us. You do believe in
:41:55. > :41:59.democracy Mary? Probably as much as you do, Nigel. Clearly. Let me
:41:59. > :42:04.finish. I started off being extremely opposed to any idea of a
:42:04. > :42:08.referendum. I know all the reasons against a referendum. I know it is
:42:08. > :42:12.the uncertainty it will bring. Its timing is unclear and so forth. In
:42:12. > :42:16.the last week or so I have come to think maybe we should have a
:42:16. > :42:20.referendum, because then possibly it would give us the chance to
:42:20. > :42:25.quash some of the silly scare stories about Europe. Perhaps the
:42:25. > :42:31.context of a referendum debate would enable us to say look, this
:42:31. > :42:36.is what this country has got out of Europe? We are talking here about
:42:36. > :42:43.restrictions on dangerous landfill, clean beaches, about economic
:42:43. > :42:49.advantages. But at the moment gets clouded out by the spurious
:42:49. > :42:54.eloquence of Mr Farage. APPLAUSE And if... We've really benefited.
:42:54. > :42:59.Our live lives have changed for the better. So you are not in favour of
:42:59. > :43:03.us adopting the Norwegian example? Well, we know that it is very
:43:03. > :43:08.expensive and no power to adopt the Norwegian example. It is a bit like
:43:08. > :43:14.going into a football match where you make the other side play on the
:43:14. > :43:19.offside rule and you are free of it. You can't cherry-pick the rules on
:43:19. > :43:23.integration. Huts here from our audience.Ive Said that
:43:23. > :43:29.Conservatives are the leading members of trying to do the EU
:43:29. > :43:35.referendum. Nigel says it is an empty promise. Are we seeing
:43:35. > :43:39.Cameron seeing that his voters are becoming more Euro-sceptic and
:43:39. > :43:42.going to UKIP? No, I think the position in the country as a whole
:43:42. > :43:46.is people are strongly in favour of us having a relationship with
:43:46. > :43:49.Europe that works for us. It is a long time since people in this
:43:49. > :43:53.country were given any kind of choice over Europe. Europe's
:43:53. > :43:57.changed beyond all recognition in that period of time. I think it is
:43:57. > :44:01.right to go back to the British people and ask, is this the kind of
:44:01. > :44:05.Europe that you want to belong to? Would a reformed relationship work
:44:05. > :44:08.better? I think that's a good and honest choice which is what the
:44:08. > :44:12.mainstream view of the British people is. It is something that
:44:12. > :44:20.people will get if they vote Conservative at the next election.
:44:20. > :44:25.I want to the go to the gom the centre. -- the gom the Aren't we to
:44:25. > :44:31.be mindful that we are paying �15 million or �16 million a year to
:44:31. > :44:38.Europe? Are we getting value for money? Do you feel we are getting
:44:38. > :44:44.your money's worth? No, I don't. You Sir. It is partly about the
:44:44. > :44:49.currency. I don't like the way the European is trying to go towards a
:44:49. > :44:57.single common domestic policy, but they can't make their money work.
:44:57. > :45:01.Once that is made true, those who say the euro is ir reversible are
:45:01. > :45:11.behaving like the Iraqi Information Minister. It is pretty ridiculous
:45:11. > :45:11.
:45:11. > :45:14.You, Sir, with the spectacles? ridiculous to suggest that the
:45:14. > :45:18.Germans are renegotiating the terms with Europe, so the best bet is to
:45:18. > :45:21.get out of Europe. Let's face it, Europe's in a complete mess, the
:45:21. > :45:25.euro's a complete mess, why would we want to be part of a club where
:45:25. > :45:31.we put �50 million a week in and get very little out? And to suggest
:45:31. > :45:35.that they won't buy our goods if we come out of Europe is totally non-
:45:36. > :45:39.sensical. Export sales have gone up today, the car sales have gone up,
:45:39. > :45:42.they've gone up primarily because of the sales going into China and
:45:42. > :45:45.India. The woman there? I don't think we should come out of Europe
:45:45. > :45:49.at all but I think a referendum would be a good idea. I think
:45:49. > :45:55.before we have a referendum, we need to get rid of the media
:45:55. > :45:59.coverage of this and say to Europe -- media coverage that says either
:45:59. > :46:02.Europe is a terrible place or a good place. We'd be answering a
:46:02. > :46:09.referendum on something that we don't know enough about, in my view,
:46:09. > :46:11.we don't have the education. You don't think the political
:46:11. > :46:16.battle... They argue amongst themselves about whether it's good
:46:16. > :46:21.or bad and we don't know enough about what Europe benefits us with.
:46:21. > :46:25.You in the centre there? I agree with the lady just there.
:46:25. > :46:30.We are not educated enough, it's all biased opinion of one political
:46:30. > :46:38.party or another and we need better education and facts about how
:46:38. > :46:47.Europe's organised. Back to 1975 when they did all that? And before
:46:47. > :46:52.then. That's one of the points. Let's go on. Just as a little light
:46:52. > :46:56.relief, Carol Jackson, please? these times of austerity, should we
:46:56. > :47:04.consider introducing horse meat as a cheaper at earn toif beef? Should
:47:04. > :47:09.we have horse meat as a cheaper alternative to beef? I have eaten
:47:09. > :47:14.horse meat and much enjoyed it and I'm sure the horse meat trade in
:47:14. > :47:21.this country, if there is any, is absolutely thanking all this
:47:21. > :47:26.publicity, it's given it the best pub Li Tie it's ever had. --
:47:26. > :47:31.publicity it's ever had. This is a vague sense that an anthropologist
:47:31. > :47:34.sense comes upon one. This is relevant to our discussion about
:47:34. > :47:40.Europe really. What is absolutely extraordinary is how we still
:47:40. > :47:46.define ourselves according to which animals we are prepared or not to
:47:46. > :47:51.eat. Actually, moggy would be very nice and chewy and tasty, but none
:47:51. > :47:56.of us want to do that. If you are not vegetarian, we are happy with
:47:56. > :48:04.chicken and horse divides Europe, but I can tell you, I had it deep
:48:04. > :48:08.fryed in Slovenia and it was gorgeous.
:48:08. > :48:14.APPLAUSE I can't resist the worst joke of the day which is what do
:48:14. > :48:16.you put on your burger - a fiver each way!
:48:16. > :48:24.APPLAUSE LAUGHTER
:48:24. > :48:28.The point is, it tasted better because it had horse in it. I saw a
:48:28. > :48:31.clip on TV today that suggested after World War II when rationing
:48:31. > :48:36.was on, there was an attempt to introduce horse meat to the British
:48:36. > :48:39.diet, but it didn't work. I do know this, if there is a market foirt,
:48:39. > :48:45.people would be getting it, but I think in terms of eating it, what
:48:45. > :48:51.you want to know is, what you're eating and that you have a choice
:48:51. > :48:55.about it. That clearly is at the heart of this situation we've got
:48:55. > :48:59.at the moment when people thought they were eating beef burgers and
:48:59. > :49:02.the other things it said on the packet that might be in there. They
:49:02. > :49:06.didn't realise that not only were they eating horse but they were
:49:06. > :49:10.also make eating pork as well. I think it's about knowing what you
:49:10. > :49:15.are eating that is really important. I've never knowingly eaten horse
:49:15. > :49:19.meat, but that probably means I've had quite a lot of it. The serious
:49:19. > :49:23.point is, you must label this properly because it's nothing short
:49:23. > :49:29.of scandalous for big supermarkets who put in horse meat and not tell
:49:30. > :49:32.customers that that's what they're eating. We really can't have that.
:49:32. > :49:37.APPLAUSE Nigel Farage The real shock that we
:49:37. > :49:40.discover is that one of the burgers had 29% of meat, sew the answer to
:49:40. > :49:44.the question is, we already do, I suppose, but the real shock was
:49:44. > :49:46.that it was discovered in Ireland, it wasn't discovered here. So we
:49:46. > :49:51.have supermarkets who've been selling large quantities of this
:49:51. > :49:55.and nobody's picked this up or discovered it. We already slaughter
:49:55. > :50:01.over 10,000 horses a year in this country, which we export to other
:50:01. > :50:06.parts of Europe, and I do think this won't end with horse meat, and
:50:06. > :50:10.I'll make a prediction. The next big story on this will be salami
:50:10. > :50:14.when people realise the amount of it that is imported into Britain
:50:15. > :50:18.with donkey meat. This has opened up a big debate about what we eat.
:50:18. > :50:22.I'm never one for Government legislation, but I think the
:50:22. > :50:25.consumer does deserve to know truthfully what is in the packaged
:50:25. > :50:32.meat they buy. That will have to be addressed.
:50:32. > :50:35.You, Sir? It's a valid point. Around 10,000 slaughtered is a
:50:35. > :50:42.conservative estimate. I've been to horse sales where horses are being
:50:42. > :50:45.sold at a tenner a time and it's the meat guys that are taking those
:50:45. > :50:49.horses away. Every horse really should have a passport so it
:50:49. > :50:55.doesn't get into the food chain. I wonder how much of that is strictly
:50:55. > :50:59.controlled as well. The chairman of the Conservative Party is in charge.
:50:59. > :51:03.In charge of many things but probably not horses. I would say
:51:03. > :51:07.the Food Standards Agency obviously are going to look into this and
:51:07. > :51:12.will report back. It's a serious matter for the wrong food to get
:51:12. > :51:15.into the food chain. It did get me wondering why it is we think some
:51:15. > :51:20.animals are socially acceptable to eat and others are not. I think the
:51:20. > :51:29.answer is, we basically eat animals that don't themselves eat animals.
:51:29. > :51:34.So we eat animals which eat grass and what have you. If only it was
:51:34. > :51:38.so simple. It's not so simple. thought I'd cracked it, but maybe
:51:38. > :51:48.that's not right. We don't eat animals that eat animals, to we?
:51:48. > :51:58.Only cannibals. That lady likes cats. We only eat animals that feed
:51:58. > :52:00.
:52:00. > :52:10.off grass. OK, fine. Let's go on. Five or ten minutes to go. A
:52:10. > :52:12.
:52:12. > :52:19.pertinent question. Is - Mali in danger of becoming the next
:52:19. > :52:24.Afghanistan and should the UK get involved at any level? Training as
:52:24. > :52:29.now emerged of the Mali Army. Grant Shapps for the Government? I think
:52:29. > :52:33.the situation's obviously very serious. 210,000 people have were
:52:33. > :52:38.fled, there are a couple of hundred thousand people displaced within
:52:38. > :52:41.Mali. We have close cooperation with the French and undertakings to
:52:41. > :52:46.assist and vice versa, so we quickly offered the help of a
:52:46. > :52:52.couple of transport C17s. I think that's the right action. We are not
:52:52. > :52:57.going to be involved on the ground. But I think that providing
:52:57. > :53:00.humanitarian aid and assistance is absolutely right. Isn't that how
:53:00. > :53:04.all these interventions start, saying we are not going to be
:53:04. > :53:10.involved? That is often how they finish. We have to just look back a
:53:10. > :53:14.year or two ago, Libya, we enforced a no-fly zone and there was a
:53:14. > :53:20.successful outcome. Clearly the French are taking the lead and
:53:20. > :53:27.we've provided them with a practical, sensible solution.
:53:27. > :53:32.we given them everything Britain have asked them for? I think...
:53:32. > :53:35.Have you answered all the questions? I think we've provided
:53:35. > :53:38.all the practical assistance, transport and system expertise on
:53:38. > :53:42.the ground. Nigel Farage? Yes, there is a
:53:42. > :53:46.danger, of course, in a region like that that you get involved in some
:53:46. > :53:52.sort of conflict. It will go on for a very long time, as we learned
:53:52. > :53:56.from Afghanistan. We've been there for longer than the entire duration
:53:56. > :54:00.of the first and Second World Wars. Going to war is the biggest
:54:00. > :54:04.decision a Government can take, yet Tony Blair seemed to go to war at
:54:04. > :54:07.the drop of a hat. I hope we've learned from that, but it appears
:54:07. > :54:11.we haven't. This administration, with little thought got involved
:54:11. > :54:15.with Libya, we are now getting involved - perhaps it's just
:54:15. > :54:18.assistance - in Mali. I would say this - I don't want my country
:54:18. > :54:23.getting involved in endless foreign wars that are not in our national
:54:23. > :54:27.interest, that if anything, make this country a more dangerous place,
:54:27. > :54:30.in my view, rather than a safer one. Can we please stop getting involved
:54:30. > :54:36.in endless military conflicts with the cost, not just in money, but
:54:36. > :54:45.British human lives. I've had enough of all these conflicts.
:54:45. > :54:50.APPLAUSE To clarify, your answer to the
:54:50. > :54:55.French would be no? Absolutely. Caroline Flint - Labour's answer?
:54:55. > :55:01.hope it's not the case that this turns into another Afghanistan, but
:55:01. > :55:06.I do think that we also need to recognise that the actions that are
:55:06. > :55:09.taken by some of these groups which don't necessarily seem to have a
:55:09. > :55:14.political objective that just want to rule by violence and terrorism
:55:14. > :55:19.may just happen in somewhere like Mali or Algeria or elsewhere. In
:55:19. > :55:23.some point, it may come knocking at our door as well. So what we do and
:55:23. > :55:29.how we support, there isn't a one- size-fits-all in all of this, but
:55:29. > :55:34.twof be -- we have to be mindful of the actions by these groups and how
:55:34. > :55:37.they do cross-borders. The other issue is that we have British
:55:37. > :55:43.nationals working all around the world and, obviously clearly, an
:55:43. > :55:47.example of this is in the gas station in Algeria today, where
:55:47. > :55:51.alongside French nationals, Canadians, Japanese workers in this
:55:51. > :55:55.industry, and therefore of course we are going to be concerned about
:55:55. > :56:03.the interest and safety and security of our citizens working
:56:03. > :56:06.overseas. You cover all these holes and another one comes. We are the
:56:06. > :56:11.first ones to offer the finger to cover the hole. Why do they come to
:56:11. > :56:18.us? I don't remember the French coming to our aid when we went to
:56:18. > :56:21.the Falklands. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:56:21. > :56:25.Mary Beard? The most depressing thing from my point of view,
:56:25. > :56:30.obviously apart from the loss of life, is the sense that we have
:56:30. > :56:36.been here before. We have seen this, we have seen airstrikes, will that
:56:36. > :56:39.be enough, no, foot soldiers will be sent in. Then worse we all
:56:39. > :56:43.become spuriously expert in a country we know nothing about. Two
:56:43. > :56:48.weeks ago, I would guess not one of us in this room knew the capital of
:56:48. > :56:58.Mali, and now we are all talking about Mali as if we understood it -
:56:58. > :56:59.
:56:59. > :57:03.we don't. I think we were right to assist the French but I'll say this
:57:03. > :57:06.much and no further. Despite the extraordinary job Britain has done
:57:06. > :57:09.in Afghanistan and it's been extraordinary and the soldiers have
:57:09. > :57:13.been extraordinary, we must remember that we are asking our
:57:14. > :57:21.Army to do more for less and that is not right.
:57:22. > :57:25.APPLAUSE One point from you Sir, in the grey
:57:25. > :57:30.on the left? I'm wondering if the Government might reverse the
:57:30. > :57:35.cutbacks to the MoD as cost-saving measures if we are going to get
:57:35. > :57:39.involved even in logistical support with the C17s that have gone to
:57:39. > :57:43.Mali. It might wake them up. We are asking our troops to do more, as
:57:43. > :57:46.you say, for less, and the pressures were putting on
:57:46. > :57:52.individual servicemen and their families. There was a �37 billion
:57:52. > :57:54.hole in the defence budget, it's now fixed, and sending two C17
:57:54. > :57:59.planes, which will probably be being used somewhere in any case,
:57:59. > :58:03.to go and help save potentially tens or even hundreds of thousands
:58:03. > :58:07.of lives, is something Britain can be proud of. Our time is up. Thank
:58:07. > :58:13.you very much all of you. Whail we'll be in Weymouth next week --
:58:13. > :58:19.we'll be in Weymouth next week. Ian Hislop will be with us. The week
:58:19. > :58:25.Hislop will be with us. The week after, we'll be in Lancaster. You