:00:11. > :00:19.$:/STARTFEED. We are in Weymouth tonight and welcome to Question
:00:19. > :00:22.Time. Good evening. A big we can to our
:00:22. > :00:26.audience here, of course, and to our panel, the Conservative Health
:00:26. > :00:31.Minister, Anna Soubry, Labour's former Culture Secretary, Ben
:00:31. > :00:39.Bradshaw, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Ming Campbell,
:00:39. > :00:49.journalist, Angela Epstein and the editor of Private Eye, Ian Hislop.
:00:49. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :00:56.Thank you very much indeed. Our first question comes from James
:00:56. > :00:59.Foster please? OK, is the referendum on the EU in the
:00:59. > :01:01.national interest or in the interests of the Conservative
:01:01. > :01:04.Party? National interest or the
:01:04. > :01:08.Conservative Party's interest? Ben Bradshaw? The Conservative Party's
:01:08. > :01:12.interests who're spooked by UKIP is the simple answer to that. It
:01:13. > :01:18.cannot possibly be in the national interest to promise a referendum at
:01:18. > :01:22.an unknown time in five or seven years' time based on an uncertain
:01:23. > :01:26.renegotiation with an unknown end. The uncertainty that that is going
:01:26. > :01:30.to create to companies that are looking to invest in the UK because
:01:30. > :01:32.we are a gateway to the single market is enormous. I think it's a
:01:32. > :01:39.mistake and I think it's perfectly clear that David Cameron's only
:01:39. > :01:45.done it because he's scared of his own backbenchers and scared of UKIP.
:01:45. > :01:50.APPLAUSE Lots of hands up already. The woman
:01:50. > :01:54.there, what do you think? I think at least David Cameron's promised a
:01:54. > :01:58.referendum, unlike the Labour Party. APPLAUSE
:01:58. > :02:04.The Labour Party is never going to have a referendum? That's not true.
:02:04. > :02:08.We have never ruled anything out. They had 13 years to do something.
:02:08. > :02:14.Sometimes in politics, as in life, keeping your powder dry is the best
:02:14. > :02:18.policy and I think that is the best policy. Anna Soubry? The leader of
:02:18. > :02:28.the party yesterday said in Prime Minister's Questions that he'd not
:02:28. > :02:31.
:02:31. > :02:36.support a referendum. He said "You know how it works". Anna Soubry?
:02:36. > :02:39.The reality is that I believe the majority of people in this country
:02:39. > :02:43.have become cynical, disillusioned with the European Union. It costs
:02:43. > :02:46.an awful lot of money, it's not democratic, gets involved in the
:02:46. > :02:50.sort of stuff that it shouldn't be involved in. I'm a believer in the
:02:50. > :02:53.European Union and come a referendum, I look forward to us
:02:53. > :02:58.having renegotiated the settlement and I can assure you, I'll be
:02:58. > :03:05.voting for us to stay within the European Union. Whatever happens?
:03:05. > :03:08.However the renegotiations go? You will vote in favour? I've always
:03:08. > :03:12.been a firm believer in the European Union. I don't want a
:03:12. > :03:16.federal Europe. Let's make that absolutely clear. But I think
:03:16. > :03:19.things are changing. Just as we have had in this country, we have
:03:19. > :03:23.had a look again at the European Union and some cynicism. I think
:03:23. > :03:28.across Europe there's a move to think again, to make sure that we
:03:28. > :03:32.restore it to what it was originally which was a trading
:03:32. > :03:35.arrangement, a free trading arrangement between nations. It's
:03:35. > :03:39.the referendum we are interested in though, James Foster wants to ask
:03:39. > :03:44.about that. Why was the leader against one a year ago? Because the
:03:44. > :03:48.time wasn't right. Sorry, that was about having a referendum during
:03:48. > :03:52.the duration of this Parliament. We are talking about having the time
:03:52. > :04:00.to go and renegotiate. If you look at the welcome that we've had,
:04:00. > :04:04.Angela Merkel's already welcomed... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:04:04. > :04:10.LAUGHTER You guys don't like to hear the truth on this. Angela
:04:10. > :04:15.Merkel said she's willing to have a conversation. She said you couldn't
:04:15. > :04:19.allow everyone to go their own way, as it were, if there was to be a
:04:19. > :04:23.settlement. It had to be universally acceptable. To the
:04:23. > :04:29.French and Germans? Exactly and since then the French have made it
:04:29. > :04:33.clear they don't like the idea of a pick 'n' mix European Union. Ben
:04:33. > :04:35.Bradshaw is absolutely right. We are about to embark upon an
:04:35. > :04:42.unprecedented period of constitutional and economic
:04:42. > :04:45.uncertainty. As if we didn't have enough economic uncertainty at the
:04:45. > :04:49.moment. Under the coalition? Your leader says they are going to
:04:49. > :04:54.damage Britain, standing there allowing Britain to be damaged by a
:04:54. > :04:57.decision made by the man in power? The coalition provides that in any
:04:58. > :05:00.occasion when additional powers were to be transferred from
:05:00. > :05:05.Westminster to Brussels, there should be a referendum. That's what
:05:05. > :05:09.we signed up to and that's what we are going to see through.
:05:09. > :05:12.Hang on, just a second. Your leader says this decision is not in the
:05:12. > :05:16.national interest because it hits growth and jobs. How can you stay
:05:16. > :05:21.in a coalition swi pursuing a policy that's not in the national
:05:21. > :05:27.interest in Clegg's view, your leader's view and affects jobs and
:05:27. > :05:33.the economy? Just imagine what the effect would be if we broke the
:05:33. > :05:38.coalition at this particular point. It's no secret, I was not a great
:05:38. > :05:45.enthusiast for the coalition, although I quite like Have I Got
:05:45. > :05:48.News For You and my attitude was, and remains, this was a coalition
:05:49. > :05:52.of necessity, we have to restore stability in the economy. Can you
:05:52. > :05:55.imagine the instability which would be caused if we broke the coalition.
:05:55. > :06:00.So the answer to the question is, of course it's in the interests of
:06:00. > :06:05.the Conservative Party but not the interests of the nation. It's not
:06:05. > :06:13.so much about UK, it's more about UKIP.
:06:13. > :06:17.The man here? You have not had a vote on this in your lifetime, have
:06:18. > :06:20.you? No, I haven't. Looking forward to it? Yes, I am. There is a great
:06:20. > :06:24.need for a referendum on the European Union and I think the
:06:24. > :06:28.Labour Party do seem to be against a referendum on the European Union
:06:28. > :06:32.simply because of what Ed Miliband said in Prime Minister's Questions
:06:32. > :06:36.yesterday. We need to renegotiate with Europe. We do need to
:06:36. > :06:41.renegotiate with Europe because of the mess that Labour signed up to
:06:41. > :06:45.with all these treaties that give all these powers away, the Lisbon
:06:45. > :06:55.Treaty being one of them where Gordon Brown walked along and
:06:55. > :06:56.
:06:56. > :07:00.decided to just sign it because he was just frightened. So you are in
:07:00. > :07:05.favour. What about you, Sir, in the white shirt in the middle? I think
:07:05. > :07:08.basically that what this referendum is is an attempt by the
:07:08. > :07:12.Conservative Party to hoodwink the electorate into voting for them in
:07:12. > :07:19.the next general election and I also think the referendum itself is
:07:19. > :07:22.too complicated for a simple yes-no answer and I believe the general
:07:22. > :07:29.public need to be educated on the European Union to exactly know what
:07:29. > :07:37.they are voting for. APPLAUSE
:07:37. > :07:46.Anna Soubry? In answer to the gentleman's question, it had
:07:46. > :07:51.absolutely everything -- Angela Epstein. It had poetry and it was
:07:51. > :08:00.Shakespearian. Where was the poetry? About draining the channel.
:08:00. > :08:05.Missed that one. It also strayed into X Factor territory when he
:08:05. > :08:08.said "I promise with my heart and soul" sounding like one of the
:08:08. > :08:12.people pleading to stay in the competition on a Saturday night.
:08:12. > :08:17.This is the first clang of the bell that says the election campaign
:08:17. > :08:20.starts now. From here on in, everything will be seen through the
:08:20. > :08:25.prism of this perspective referendum. In answer to your
:08:25. > :08:28.question, however, he could change political interest and emotional
:08:28. > :08:30.political blackmail into national interest if he holds this
:08:31. > :08:34.referendum in the life cycle of this Parliament. It's a topic
:08:34. > :08:38.that's here and now, we are all sick and tired of hearing why and
:08:38. > :08:42.where and what's happening. Half the country don't really know what
:08:42. > :08:45.it's about. He needs to spell out clearly what his repatriation plans
:08:45. > :08:49.are, he needs to cut through all the red tape in Brussels, he needs
:08:49. > :08:53.to go there and say this is what the UK want, UKIP have lost their
:08:53. > :08:58.USP, so forget them. He needs to spell out what the UK want and then
:08:58. > :09:01.come back and if they say no, I'm sorry, we can't give you a
:09:01. > :09:05.renegotiated treaty, then bye-bye Europe and if they can, bring it to
:09:05. > :09:13.the people. Before the election? it now before the election.
:09:13. > :09:18.APPLAUSE The woman at the front? What sort
:09:18. > :09:23.of information would be the public be given when it comes possibly to
:09:23. > :09:27.a referendum? Ian Hislop will know that.
:09:27. > :09:30.There are two "Ifs" he has to win the next election, David Cameron,
:09:30. > :09:33.in order to have this referendum. You may not get a vote of all
:09:33. > :09:37.because the likelihood of that happening at the moment isn't
:09:37. > :09:43.hugely high. I would like to answer the gentleman's original question -
:09:43. > :09:48.is this in the national interest? I think a renegotiation with Europe
:09:48. > :09:52.is in the national interest. You said it was a reaction to UKIP. I
:09:52. > :10:00.think it's a reaction to public mood. There are a lot of people who
:10:00. > :10:03.aren't happy with Europe and would like certain bits of it changed.
:10:03. > :10:13.APPLAUSE Terrible as this may sound, this is what politicians are meant
:10:13. > :10:19.to react to, what the population is actually make a good well-informed
:10:19. > :10:25.decision on a complex issue when there are so many complex strategic
:10:25. > :10:31.issues. Why shouldn't the public have a view? This is the problem
:10:31. > :10:36.with Europe is that democracy is a worry for people and it's full of
:10:36. > :10:41.regimes appointed by technocrats. Have the public saying what they
:10:41. > :10:48.think. Is there a danger that knee- jerk decisions based on the a
:10:48. > :10:52.popular idea or patriotism which may well be not in the general
:10:52. > :10:55.public's interest? I'm old enough to remember the run-up to the
:10:55. > :10:58.original referendum on whether we should join the EU in the first
:10:58. > :11:03.place. There are many people who do feel that they want a say, that
:11:03. > :11:06.they have never had a say in the EU. That's another very good reason, in
:11:06. > :11:12.my view, why we should have this referendum. I can assure you, there
:11:12. > :11:18.will be a full and frank and extensive debate and the various
:11:18. > :11:23.groups will gather and those who're for and against will make their
:11:23. > :11:26.arguments extremely well and very loudly. People will be able to make
:11:26. > :11:31.their decision based on good sound information.
:11:31. > :11:35.The man in the centre there? If I could make an observation on this
:11:35. > :11:39.and it's to do with an associated news story. What I found
:11:39. > :11:44.particularly disturbing personally is that the day before, bearing in
:11:44. > :11:47.mind this is happening in 2017, the day before there was a large number
:11:47. > :11:51.of redundancies announced in the military. The next day, the FM
:11:51. > :11:56.announced this and there wasn't a trace of the military redundancys
:11:56. > :12:03.in the news, the cynical amongst us might think there was a timing
:12:03. > :12:06.issue here. APPLAUSE He had several goes at
:12:06. > :12:11.making the speech. He was meant to make it last week but couldn't
:12:11. > :12:17.because of the situation in Algeria. Ben Bradshaw, you have heard the
:12:17. > :12:21.arguments. The difficulty with Ian's suggestion of a renegotiation
:12:21. > :12:26.on competencys, and the Prime Minister hasn't spelt out what
:12:26. > :12:29.competencys he wants to renegotiate back and he hasn't identify add
:12:29. > :12:32.single other European Union country that would support Britain
:12:32. > :12:37.unilaterally getting the competencys back. That's the
:12:37. > :12:41.problem. I support European reform and us working with the
:12:41. > :12:45.Scandinavian countries and Germany and the Netherlands who want Europe
:12:45. > :12:49.to be more competitive to compete in the world. The idea that Ming
:12:49. > :12:55.said you can have a pick and mix and enjoy the advantages of the
:12:55. > :12:58.single market is pure fantasy. about Ian's point? You can have a
:12:58. > :13:03.referendum though, you can ask people what they want? Everyone
:13:03. > :13:08.comes up with these eating metaphors, pick 'n' mix, ala carte,
:13:08. > :13:11.buffet, no it isn't, we are not a member of the euro so everything is
:13:11. > :13:14.going to change anyway, they are going to go towards a greater
:13:14. > :13:19.fiscal union because they have to. We don't have to. Everything's
:13:19. > :13:29.going to change anyway, use this as a chance to renegotiate the
:13:29. > :13:33.
:13:33. > :13:36.opposition. It's bizarre. That's not what David Cameron's proposing.
:13:36. > :13:42.What would you put down as being the alternative to being out? You
:13:42. > :13:46.don't know that until the very process you've described has taken
:13:46. > :13:54.place and been completed. Once it's been completed, then you can go to
:13:54. > :13:59.the public and say, all right, are you content for the bringing to an
:13:59. > :14:04.end of the European arrest warrant, are you content... There will be
:14:04. > :14:07.problems with that being issued. Are you content with bringing an
:14:07. > :14:15.end to the working time directive. You can put all the details to
:14:15. > :14:25.people once you have got an agenda, a manifesto. The referendum?
:14:25. > :14:27.
:14:27. > :14:32.$:/STARTFEED. I'm old enough to have taken part in the 1975
:14:32. > :14:35.referendum campaign. We began that campaign with the opinion polls
:14:35. > :14:42.solidly against us. By the time we had the argument, we won the
:14:42. > :14:47.argument very convincingly. I'm confident we would do that again.
:14:47. > :14:52.The problem is, if nobody will talk to the Prime Minister... If nobody
:14:52. > :14:59.will talk to the Prime Minister? nobody will talk to him in Europe
:14:59. > :15:04.and he is going to say we should go for the no vote, then we are out
:15:04. > :15:09.basically. Nobody's actually talked about it. He's recommending that
:15:09. > :15:14.the vote comes out. You think if he doesn't get anything from Europe he
:15:14. > :15:20.will have to say no? That's what he is saying. Is that what he is
:15:20. > :15:24.saying? He can't be saying vote yes whatever happens. There is no doubt
:15:24. > :15:27.the conversation has already begun. You have seen the Swedish Prime
:15:27. > :15:31.Minister, the Dutch, all welcome the lead that David Cameron's
:15:31. > :15:36.taking. I do believe there's a mood amongst many in the European Union
:15:36. > :15:42.that they accept and understand that it must reform That's
:15:42. > :15:45.different. We are all in favour of reform. But there is the problem.
:15:45. > :15:49.Nobody's seized the nettle and tried to go and make that
:15:49. > :15:55.difference, and bring it back to the British people and finally give
:15:55. > :16:00.the British people a say on their future in the European Union, in or
:16:00. > :16:04.out. What do you think is more likely to succeed - going in and
:16:04. > :16:09.saying things are changing, we like to help, that as the eurozone's
:16:09. > :16:12.viability is important to our prosperity as well, and by the way
:16:12. > :16:19.there are other things I would like to put on the agenda, or saying,
:16:19. > :16:24.these are the things we want and if we don't get them, we'll walk out?
:16:24. > :16:31.We've got to move on. It seems to me that all five of you agree with
:16:31. > :16:37.the principle of a referendum. You just have different... You're not
:16:37. > :16:41.against? I'm not against the principle. I think Cameron's
:16:41. > :16:46.worried about being eaten for breakfast by the electorate. Eaten
:16:46. > :16:55.for breakfast would mean losing the election or getting a no vote in a
:16:55. > :17:05.referendum? I think he wants to stay where he is. There was a
:17:05. > :17:05.
:17:05. > :17:15.Finnish man saying it was like a currant bun, you can take out the
:17:15. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:27.Let's take another question, from Jamie Wilson, please. Do schools
:17:27. > :17:30.close when it snows for the safety of pupils and staff, or because
:17:30. > :17:35.everybody is afraid of being sued or fined by a health and safety
:17:35. > :17:38."officer"? This snow which led to one in six
:17:39. > :17:45.schools being closed. Sit because they are worried about safety or
:17:45. > :17:49.because they are afraid of being done by health and safety officers.
:17:49. > :17:53.Angela Epstein? I think it was absolutely ludicrous the read that
:17:53. > :17:56.5,000 schools closed when it was going to snow. It is not as if the
:17:56. > :18:06.weather didn't dominate the news for a week-and-a-half before. It
:18:06. > :18:06.
:18:07. > :18:11.was like one of those disaster movies, "It's coming, batten down
:18:11. > :18:15.the hatches." The policy saying there's snow, one teacher I heard
:18:15. > :18:22.say she agonised all night over whether to close the school. If
:18:22. > :18:29.teachers can get in, they will get in. If pupils can get in, they will
:18:29. > :18:33.get in. Schools are not a baby- sight service. They are there to
:18:34. > :18:42.education and it's a dereliction of duty to close because of snow. If
:18:42. > :18:47.they are going to fall over on snow, they will play over -- fall over
:18:47. > :18:55.playing rounders or playing who stole my iPad or whatever it is
:18:55. > :19:00.they play today. Goodness me! Only very affluent areas do they worry
:19:00. > :19:06.about the stolen iPad! Ian Hislop? I think there were obviously
:19:06. > :19:11.schools that had snow drifts and schools in Wales that had to close.
:19:11. > :19:17.But you keep reading about schools next to each other where one was
:19:17. > :19:21.open and the other wasn't, it seems to me you can make a school day,
:19:21. > :19:25.you can have a snowball fight for half of it, which is what half my
:19:25. > :19:30.education was - you can probably tell. It seems that you can
:19:30. > :19:37.function as a school on a skeleton staff and if you can do so, you
:19:37. > :19:42.should. So why are we so wimpish about it? I heard one headmistress
:19:42. > :19:46.saying if one child fell over on the ice and a car slid... I thought
:19:46. > :19:50.well, this is quite unlikely so far, and surely risk should be built
:19:50. > :19:55.into education. It is a broader thing. Children should be allowed
:19:55. > :20:05.to walk along a snowy path without people thinking, "Oh, my God, they
:20:05. > :20:05.
:20:06. > :20:10.are all going to die!" Anna Soubry? It is a nonsense. If you can keep
:20:10. > :20:16.your school open, you should. was the Government's line on it?
:20:16. > :20:24.is the decision for head teachers, to decide whether to open or close
:20:24. > :20:31.their doors. I don't know what's happened to us. This is a
:20:31. > :20:37.Nottingham word but we've all become a bit "nesh." I remember as
:20:37. > :20:43.a child going to school in the most appalling freezing weather.
:20:43. > :20:48.barefoot? No! LAUGHTER You wrap up warm and you went to school. The
:20:48. > :20:52.best thing certainly when I was at school in Worksop was having a
:20:52. > :20:57.snowball fight. Schools are there to educate. It is a very important
:20:57. > :21:00.point that Angela makes, a lot of people are extremely fed up that
:21:00. > :21:03.their schools are closed and they are going to work, or they want, to
:21:03. > :21:09.but the problem is they have to stay at home and look after the
:21:09. > :21:15.children. If they can get to work, the staff and pupils should.
:21:15. > :21:19.you close your school? We closed the college for one day. Why? It is
:21:19. > :21:25.on the flat. I think really it was probably to do with health and
:21:25. > :21:28.safety reasons. What health and safety reasons? The fact that if,
:21:28. > :21:36.like someone just said, if one of our students were to fall over
:21:36. > :21:41.within the college and injury themselves, then... Then what?
:21:41. > :21:44.you have a committee and decide this? What it your decision?
:21:44. > :21:51.certainly wasn't my decision what happened is A-level exams were
:21:51. > :21:57.on that day and we made sure the students got in to take their exams.
:21:57. > :22:02.How did you make sure without them falling over? Phone calls. You come
:22:02. > :22:07.in and if you fall over it is at your own risk? That's an important
:22:07. > :22:12.point. You were able to get your A- level students in but they had the
:22:12. > :22:20.same risks as the other children. What about the concept of clearing
:22:20. > :22:25.the playground and gritting, and mucking in? I remember 1963. For
:22:25. > :22:30.those seeing the news recently, it was three months of snow and abject
:22:30. > :22:36.problems. We still went to school. I psyche told school. I ripped my
:22:36. > :22:40.trousers. It was great fun. Education didn't stop. And you on
:22:40. > :22:45.the left? I don't believe any of this health and safety for one
:22:45. > :22:49.minute. From a personal experience I had to travel across the country
:22:49. > :22:54.to my 40-mile commute into the office, in heavy snow. It took me
:22:54. > :22:58.most of the day to get there. The office applauded when I arrived.
:22:58. > :23:04.However, outrageously, people that live one mile up the road didn't
:23:04. > :23:11.get into the office because of the snow. More outrageously there was
:23:11. > :23:16.nothing done about it. And there was nothing this was this one?
:23:16. > :23:22.that was last time. But you didn't get much work done. But the
:23:22. > :23:27.important point is I arrived. Bradshaw? I remember the great fun
:23:27. > :23:31.we had sliding in the playground on slides and playing snowballs. I
:23:31. > :23:34.think good head teachers do try their best to keep their schools
:23:34. > :23:37.open. They feel a great sense of responsibility to their pupils. One
:23:37. > :23:41.of the issues that's a problem these days is the distances that
:23:41. > :23:46.quite a lot of staff live from the school. When I was brought up, most
:23:46. > :23:51.of the staff lived within quite a small radius of the school, so it
:23:51. > :23:56.was easy for them to get in. Maybe that's caused extra problems in the
:23:56. > :24:01.way we lead our modern lives. originally from Shropshire, where
:24:01. > :24:05.the snow used to be absolutely awful. Your contingency plan would
:24:05. > :24:10.be wellington boots and out you went to school, you had to walk to
:24:10. > :24:19.school. I live in Weymouth now. Do you know how much snow there was in
:24:19. > :24:23.Weymouth? I mean, please! How much? In inches or centimetres?
:24:23. > :24:27.Millimetres. I will say actually that the only school that stayed
:24:27. > :24:32.open was my grandchildren's school and I thought was absolutely
:24:32. > :24:36.tremendous. Ming Campbell? I tend to the rather general view that
:24:36. > :24:40.schools should stay open if at all possible. It does appear that there
:24:40. > :24:45.were a number of occasions when they could have stayed open but
:24:45. > :24:49.didn't. I want to put this point to you. A head teacher, damned if they
:24:49. > :24:53.do and damned if they don't. For some head teachers it must have
:24:53. > :24:59.been a pretty marginal decision. Behind this is the fact that in
:24:59. > :25:02.spite of 1963 and other things, we are still not ready for even the
:25:02. > :25:06.moderate snowfall. My own personal experience is ten hours from the
:25:07. > :25:14.centre of Edinburgh to the centre of London on Sunday because of
:25:14. > :25:17.cancelled flights, reanged flights, late flights and the rest of it --
:25:17. > :25:21.rearranged flights. That's why I think we really do have to ask
:25:21. > :25:24.ourselves, particularly if we think we are in an era of climate change,
:25:24. > :25:27.are we properly prepared for the extremes of the climate? As the
:25:27. > :25:31.events of the last week or fortnight suggest, we most
:25:31. > :25:35.certainly are not and we will have to provide the material and the
:25:35. > :25:44.equipment in order to make us suitably prepared. APPLAUSE
:25:44. > :25:47.Hislop? I just wanted to blame the media for a moment. You are the
:25:47. > :25:51.media! It is self flagellation. There's a modern thing you are told
:25:51. > :25:56.to stay in your house unless your journey is really necessary, and if
:25:56. > :26:05.you stay in your house the only source of information is the radio
:26:05. > :26:11.or BBC website which says, don't go outside. It kept happening. You go
:26:11. > :26:15.outside, you see out there it is not half as bad as you said.
:26:15. > :26:21.There's a real tendency to panic in advance and then it becomes self
:26:21. > :26:24.fulfilling. OK. Let's go on to a quite different topic. Jonathan
:26:24. > :26:31.Jones please. Is George Osborne's programme of spending cuts
:26:31. > :26:36.credible? This is quoting Osborne himself,
:26:36. > :26:39.who was saying that we have a credible and flexibility debt
:26:39. > :26:43.reduction plan, credibility hard- won and easily lost. We do have to
:26:43. > :26:48.carry on with the cuts. Under attack on the other hand from the
:26:48. > :26:52.IMF, saying they've got to ease up. And under attack from Clegg, it
:26:52. > :26:58.seems his partner, saying that we got it wrong at the beginning by
:26:58. > :27:04.not spending money on capital projects. Anna Soubry, what do you
:27:04. > :27:09.make of the Clegg attack? We got this wrong, I'm going to be self
:27:09. > :27:13.critical he said today. I haven't heard it. It was in a thing called
:27:13. > :27:16.the House, a parliamentary magazine. I'm going to be sort of self
:27:16. > :27:20.critical. There was this reduction in capital spending when we came
:27:20. > :27:25.into the coalition Government. I think we've all realised to foster
:27:25. > :27:29.a recovery you've got to mobilise public and private capital. A big
:27:29. > :27:34.admission from the man... He is talking about capital spending.
:27:34. > :27:39.and the IMF are saying we should ease up anyway. I think the IMF has
:27:39. > :27:45.come out now in poor of what we are doing. I think you will find that
:27:45. > :27:49.there is merit in the beginning, very early on in the coalition, big
:27:49. > :27:51.capital expenditure. If you look at what's been rolled out, I see the
:27:51. > :27:58.investment in the railway system and the tram system and the
:27:58. > :28:00.roadworks, certainly in my area. There's been a phenomenal
:28:00. > :28:04.investment in infrastructure and rightly so. Are we doing the right
:28:04. > :28:09.thing? It is tough and it is difficult but it's the right thing.
:28:09. > :28:13.I don't believe there is, to use that expression, any alternative.
:28:13. > :28:17.The only alternative is to do what Labour did which got introduce the
:28:17. > :28:20.mess in the first place, to borrow on a level and scale we've never
:28:20. > :28:28.seen before in this country. It was investment. It was not investment.
:28:28. > :28:32.What it was, as I say, was the expenditure on a scale that we've
:28:32. > :28:36.never seen, but it was based on debt. As you know, anybody knows,
:28:36. > :28:40.if you have a credit card and you have reached your limit, there is
:28:40. > :28:45.nowhere else for you to go. What you have to do is pay off your
:28:45. > :28:49.debts and you have to live within your means. And that means, It is
:28:49. > :28:54.more complex than that in a national economy. It is not as spim
:28:54. > :28:58.approximately as having a Visa card. The principles are the same. Living
:28:59. > :29:04.within your means and making sure you did not live and exist on
:29:04. > :29:09.borrowing. It was because we've borrowed at a rate that we've never
:29:10. > :29:14.seen before that we ended up in the economic mess we saw in 2010.
:29:14. > :29:19.That's why the two parties came together, with all our differences,
:29:19. > :29:24.we came together on one issue - to sort out the economic mess. And
:29:24. > :29:32.we've made some tough decisions. And we've had to impose tough cuts.
:29:32. > :29:36.But it will... Debt is still rising. But what's the alternative?
:29:36. > :29:40.Labour's alternative is to borrow yet more money, and that is no
:29:40. > :29:50.solution to our problems. It is tough but it will be worth it in
:29:50. > :29:56.
:29:56. > :30:00.$:/STARTFEED. We think fiscal consolidation may be the thing in
:30:00. > :30:04.this market. It means they've been cutting too far, too fast, it's
:30:04. > :30:08.killed growth, it's putting borrowing up, the deficit up, not
:30:08. > :30:12.down, and fult an alternative model, look at what Barack Obama's done in
:30:12. > :30:18.the United States, he's kept his economy growing, unemployment's
:30:18. > :30:23.going down. America has a huge deficit but it's been kept at a
:30:23. > :30:27.certain level. You don't repay the deficit, Anna, by killing growth.
:30:27. > :30:30.You've had no growth since you came into Government. �120 million a day
:30:30. > :30:35.on debt alone being spent and it's astonishing. You are a member of
:30:35. > :30:41.the Government that's brought this country economically almost to its
:30:41. > :30:51.knees. It's like saying do more of the same that brought us into this
:30:51. > :30:52.
:30:52. > :30:57.situation, but you should be saying sorry. Before I go to Ming, why did
:30:57. > :31:02.the Prime Minister say last night "We are paying down Britain's debt"
:31:02. > :31:07.when it's rising? Because the way we are tackling the deficit, that
:31:07. > :31:16.will be the ultimate goal. They are both rising, both the debt and...
:31:16. > :31:23.No, they're not. ALL SPEAK AT ONCE References to credit cards have
:31:24. > :31:28.more than a hint of the Thatcherite approach.
:31:28. > :31:35.APPLAUSE If you are a house wife, you can't balance the budget, if
:31:35. > :31:37.you do that in the national interest things go very badly.
:31:37. > :31:43.Margaret Thatcher must have been good because none of you at any
:31:43. > :31:53.time can keep her out of any conversation so she must have done
:31:53. > :31:53.
:31:54. > :31:57.something right, eh? She was a very prominent influence. We have
:31:57. > :32:02.reduced the deficit by a quarter, kept interest rates knower than
:32:02. > :32:11.they've ever been in our history, we have managed, vut of that, to
:32:11. > :32:17.keep mortgage rates now -- result of that. The stock market is stable
:32:17. > :32:23.at around 6,000, the bond market where we have to borrow is stable.
:32:23. > :32:27.Now, should we have growth? Of course we should, but you won't get
:32:27. > :32:32.growth that's credible until you have achieved economic stability.
:32:32. > :32:39.Look very carefully at the words "May be appropriate" which is
:32:39. > :32:42.pretty general. When an economist says it. Something specific to
:32:42. > :32:47.point to. Michael Heseltine produced a report which set out
:32:47. > :32:52.clearly the path that can be taken for growth consistent with the
:32:52. > :32:56.stabilising of the economy of which we've made our central
:32:56. > :33:00.responsibility. On that basis, I think there is now an opportunity
:33:00. > :33:07.for some relaxation. I think there is an opportunity to to more than
:33:07. > :33:10.the �5 billion that was released as a result of the Autumn Statement by
:33:10. > :33:16.George Osborne for infrastructure, investment and things of that kind.
:33:16. > :33:19.I think we are now in a position to do that. If we hadn't taken these
:33:19. > :33:25.difficult, harsh and unpleasant decisions, we wouldn't be in that
:33:25. > :33:29.position. I'll leave you with one piece of information... But mink...
:33:29. > :33:33.I'll come back to you. Welfare costs more than health, education
:33:33. > :33:40.and defence put together. Is that sustainable? You are actually
:33:40. > :33:43.writing the Chancellor's budget for him in a way that, I mean is this
:33:43. > :33:50.the Liberal Democrat position, that he should ease up? I'm writing the
:33:50. > :33:58.budget with the freedom of a backbencher and I... So we can take
:33:58. > :34:03.no notice? No, no. I wouldn't be on this programme if you didn't think
:34:03. > :34:07.I had some influence now would I? Nick Clegg's changed his mind about
:34:07. > :34:10.something else now, it's about austerity. That shouldn't be a
:34:10. > :34:14.surprise. Everybody's changed their mind. The idea the IMF has been
:34:14. > :34:20.constantly saying you must go for growth, spending is it, it's simply
:34:20. > :34:23.not true. The IMF was very keen on austerity. It and the EU are keen
:34:23. > :34:26.on austerity, particularly for other European countries, so the
:34:26. > :34:29.idea that suddenly we have a consistent position from the IMF
:34:29. > :34:33.that we must take seriously, they've changed their mind because
:34:33. > :34:37.there's no growth, Nick Clegg has and I have no idea whether growth
:34:37. > :34:47.is possible but I don't think you lot do either.
:34:47. > :34:51.
:34:51. > :34:56.APPLAUSE. The Government is saying it wants to keep reducing the
:34:56. > :35:01.borrowing. After you decimated the British forces by at least 30,000
:35:01. > :35:07.very soon, private sector and public sector losing thousands of
:35:07. > :35:13.jobs, these are all taxpayers, bear in mind, opening the doors to
:35:13. > :35:17.European countries to come into our country very shortly - where is the
:35:17. > :35:21.money going to come from? Can I just say, I think we may well be
:35:21. > :35:29.having a question on defence, I'm second-guessing, I accept. Have you
:35:29. > :35:34.been reading my questions? No, I haven't, but actually, our rate of
:35:34. > :35:42.employment are going up. We have the highest employment rates we
:35:42. > :35:50.have had. We have created a million new jobs. Not full tax-payers' jobs.
:35:50. > :35:53.They are not all part-time jobs. Youth unemployment figures are
:35:53. > :35:59.again falling. You are not listening to the British public.
:35:59. > :36:05.The woman over here on the left. We'll try and get you. Anna can't
:36:05. > :36:10.take six questions at once. So to you? I agree that the interest
:36:10. > :36:15.rates are at their lowest they've ever been, but the cost of
:36:15. > :36:19.borrowing and the cost-of-living now, the fear is that the moment
:36:19. > :36:26.the Government increases the interest rates, we are all pretty
:36:26. > :36:30.doomed actually because we are up to our limit just trying to survive.
:36:30. > :36:33.APPLAUSE You are talking about relaxing austerity measures and
:36:33. > :36:36.investing in infrastructure. What is the point in investing in
:36:36. > :36:42.infrastructure when people can't afford to put food on the table?
:36:42. > :36:49.You are capping benefit rises when they are already not enough for
:36:49. > :36:55.people to live on, you know. Sorry, we are capping benefit at �26,000 a
:36:55. > :36:59.year. Benefit rises. There is a 1% rise. Yes. That's ridiculous.
:36:59. > :37:01.That's not enough. I want to go to Angela Epstein, back to the
:37:02. > :37:06.original question on whether the Government's programme of spending
:37:06. > :37:09.cuts is still credible? I'll be honest, I find a lot of this
:37:09. > :37:13.baffling. When politicians speak, I don't know if you will agree with
:37:13. > :37:17.me, they tend to hide behind big words like "Fiscal" and I say this
:37:18. > :37:21.as the wife of a chartered accountant as well, but the fact is
:37:21. > :37:25.that out here in the real world, people want to know the reality of
:37:25. > :37:29.how they are going to cope in a time of real recession and people
:37:29. > :37:32.want to focus on growth and more jobs, whether they can put food on
:37:32. > :37:35.the table, whether their local hospital will close, whether the
:37:35. > :37:39.military will be capable of defending itself. It matters very
:37:39. > :37:42.little when the rhetoric, hot air as it is going backwards and
:37:43. > :37:46.forwards, is it growth or austerity? People need to know what
:37:46. > :37:51.the Government will do and what the proposals will be. So will it mean
:37:51. > :37:55.that by the end of the week they'll have less money in their pocket
:37:55. > :38:00.than they had the week before? To talk in broad terms about whether
:38:00. > :38:07.austerity matters or not, why don't they ask civil servants to take a
:38:07. > :38:11.10% cut in their salaries, for example? Not a freeze, but a pay
:38:11. > :38:16.cut. They are sacking 25,000 civil servants. The public sector's
:38:16. > :38:20.paying a price as well. Yes, it is. The woman in the second row from
:38:20. > :38:23.the back, then we'll move on? wondering how the Government can
:38:23. > :38:28.possibly retain any credibility when the cuts in services are
:38:28. > :38:31.hitting the people who're worst off the hardest. For those that work in
:38:31. > :38:36.public health and social care services, we are already seeing a
:38:36. > :38:42.rise in people with mental health breakdowns, a rise in addictions
:38:42. > :38:46.with drug and alcohol and also a rise in homelessness. This creates
:38:46. > :38:50.a situation where we need greater investment in public sector
:38:51. > :38:54.services, the ones that we are subject and -- that were subject
:38:54. > :39:01.and victim to the cuts in the first instance.
:39:01. > :39:08.APPLAUSE Can you just answer that specific
:39:08. > :39:16.point, then we must move on, Anna? It's not what I recognise at all, I
:39:16. > :39:20.must say. HECKLING
:39:20. > :39:24.Not at all. There have been cuts in public expenditure, but if you look
:39:24. > :39:30.at many councils across this country, even in very difficult
:39:30. > :39:34.time, -- times, they've managed to maintain an excellent level of
:39:34. > :39:39.service which we should be proud of even in difficult times tofpt paint
:39:39. > :39:43.a picture as bleak as that I don't believe is a true refluxion. Which
:39:43. > :39:50.is based on the goodwill of the workers so work so many extra hours
:39:50. > :39:57.a week to keep the services going. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:39:57. > :40:02.Hear, hear. There's no investment. We'll move on. Mark Tappin, please?
:40:02. > :40:07.Do you agree with cuts to the military as the terrorism threat
:40:07. > :40:11.grows in north Africa? Do you agree with cuts to the military? We have
:40:11. > :40:15.been talking about reductions in the Armed Forces and I think the
:40:15. > :40:23.exact number, 5,000 job losses in the Army roughly, numbers being
:40:23. > :40:30.brought down from 100,000 to 80,000 by 2017. Ben Bradshaw? Do you
:40:30. > :40:34.support the cuts? Not entirely, no. The timing of the announcement was
:40:34. > :40:39.dreadful coming the day after David Cameron said we have a massive
:40:39. > :40:47.fight against north Africa for the next three decades. Is it right or
:40:47. > :40:52.wrong to make the cuts? The timing is cosmetic? My worry is that it
:40:52. > :40:56.was a Treasury-based review aimed to get cuts, not a proper strategic
:40:56. > :41:02.look at what Britain's needs are and what our financial abilities
:41:02. > :41:08.are looking at our strategic needs long-term. My worry is that the
:41:08. > :41:14.salami slicing of the military - you know, north Africa, Algeria,
:41:14. > :41:16.Libya - didn't even feature in the review. That's where we are looking
:41:16. > :41:20.at deploying forces now on the ground. I don't think the
:41:20. > :41:23.Government is joined up on this. There will be difficult spending
:41:23. > :41:28.decisions for whoever is in power but I thought the Government missed
:41:28. > :41:31.an opportunity to step back. What is Britain's long-term strategic
:41:31. > :41:35.defence interest? What can we afford. Then they should decide
:41:35. > :41:39.what to spend the money on, not just cutting the money in the way
:41:39. > :41:43.it has. Ben Bradshaw might have referred to the fact that when
:41:43. > :41:48.Labour came into office in 1997, they had a proper defence review,
:41:48. > :41:51.it took 15 months, they consulted widely and produced the document
:41:51. > :41:55.set out from policy objectives and how they were to be achieved which
:41:55. > :41:58.was entirely credible and indeed lasted until 2010. Like him, I was
:41:58. > :42:03.critical of the fact that the Government said to the Ministry of
:42:03. > :42:06.Defence, here is the money, go away and make a defence policy, when in
:42:06. > :42:13.fact what you should be doing is saying, here is the policy, let's
:42:13. > :42:19.have the money so we can fulfil it. The other point Ben made was this,
:42:19. > :42:24.in defence and in Foreign Affairs, you must always expect the
:42:24. > :42:27.unexpected. The Arab Spring, for example. In the first Gulf War, no-
:42:27. > :42:31.one expected that Saddam Hussein would invade Kuwait. Yes he did.
:42:31. > :42:36.These things happen. Therefore, you have to have what they call - sorry
:42:36. > :42:40.it's a slight buzz word - but resilience. It's the ability to
:42:40. > :42:43.sustain yourself and any military effort that you want to make-over a
:42:43. > :42:49.substantial period. No point turning up to a fortnight and going
:42:49. > :42:54.away again. We come back to the position in north Africa. The Prime
:42:54. > :42:58.Minister said, perhaps correctly, this was an issue that was going to
:42:58. > :43:02.dog us for decades. That may well be so, but the fact of the matter
:43:02. > :43:05.is that if we are going to be engaged in the way he suggests,
:43:05. > :43:11.that we cannot do it on the resources which are available at
:43:11. > :43:15.the moment. The Army's going from 98,000 down to 80,000. That's a
:43:15. > :43:20.very, very substantial cut. The Royal Navy and Air Force have
:43:20. > :43:23.suffered similarly. The first obligation of any Government is to
:43:23. > :43:29.protect and defend its citizens. It's a substantial question. Where
:43:29. > :43:32.do you find the money from? have to go into other departments
:43:32. > :43:35.and say, the first obligation is the defence of our citizens and, at
:43:35. > :43:39.the moment, it's difficult to see that that is being properly
:43:39. > :43:43.fulfilled. It's not just me as a member of the Liberal Democrats
:43:43. > :43:49.who's saying this, plr plenty of people on the backbenches of the
:43:49. > :43:53.Conservative Party who say exactly the same -- there are plenty of
:43:53. > :43:57.people. Both Ben and mink have made very
:43:57. > :44:01.good points about the cuts in the Army and the loss of the troops --
:44:01. > :44:06.Ming. Why are we contemplating buying a multibillion pound missile
:44:07. > :44:16.nuclear deterrent that we'll never use? Why don't we use that money to
:44:16. > :44:19.For many of us in Government this has been one of the most difficult
:44:19. > :44:23.parts of the decision we had to make. It is worth reminding
:44:23. > :44:27.everybody that after the election when we looked at the books there
:44:27. > :44:31.was what we call a black hole in the Ministry of Defence books of
:44:31. > :44:39.some �33 billion. And that was something that had to be sorted out
:44:39. > :44:42.as a matter of urgency. As a result of that... How did you find a black
:44:42. > :44:48.hole? It is when you have a gap between the amount of money you
:44:48. > :44:54.need to spend and when you haven't got the money to do it, it means
:44:54. > :44:59.you've got this shortfall. Over how long a period? It was accumulated
:44:59. > :45:03.over years. But by a series of absolutely catastrophic procurement
:45:03. > :45:07.decisions by the previous Government. They wasted billions
:45:07. > :45:14.and billions and billions. APPLAUSE And so therefore something had to
:45:14. > :45:20.be done about it. And no-one's been punished, or prosecuted or even
:45:20. > :45:26.investigated, for losing more money, �37 billion I think it is, than
:45:26. > :45:33.Trident in the first place. Aircraft carriers you can't land on,
:45:33. > :45:40.jets that don't work, huge collusion between them and the
:45:40. > :45:44.Government. This is the most unbelievable example of
:45:44. > :45:47.incompetence and waste that I think this Government should have acted
:45:47. > :45:54.on that. Government is responsible for but you lot cannot complain
:45:54. > :46:00.getting rid of 5,000 troops even in the same brackets that sort of
:46:00. > :46:04.waste. APPLAUSE But as a result of that, we have had the full review
:46:04. > :46:07.of our defence systems. We've looked at the way forward. It has
:46:07. > :46:13.been very tough and it does mean we've had to make soldiers
:46:13. > :46:17.redundant. Nobody likes to do that. But we will still have the fourth
:46:17. > :46:22.largest spend on our armed forces of any country in the world. So I
:46:22. > :46:26.think... You parents not the Army is it? It is worth remembering that.
:46:26. > :46:30.These are, as I say, difficult decisions in the wake of what we
:46:30. > :46:35.inherited and what had been done before It is not just what you
:46:35. > :46:38.spend but what you foresee as our obligations. You have to take these
:46:39. > :46:42.interest account in determining what you were spending. You were
:46:42. > :46:50.talking about difficult decisions in the health service you don't
:46:50. > :46:55.just say to them, "How much do you want?" Will the defence cuts change
:46:55. > :46:59.the pull-out date from Afghanistan? You say you are a civilian worker
:46:59. > :47:06.in Afghanistan? I am. It don't have an effect no,. If the United States
:47:06. > :47:12.goes more quickly, I think Britain might go more quickly. I think one
:47:12. > :47:14.of the biggest concerns is Homeland Security. When you're cutting the
:47:14. > :47:19.armed services at the same time that you are cutting the Police
:47:19. > :47:25.Service, and all the other public services, it is what's going to
:47:25. > :47:30.happen. I firmly believe the Government are abdibcated their
:47:30. > :47:34.responsibility to Homeland Security. And you Sir on the back? Yes, as he
:47:34. > :47:38.was saying, it is not the squaddy on the ground who is losing his
:47:38. > :47:44.socks and boots and wanting money to pay for it. It's the people who
:47:44. > :47:50.made the decisions to make boats that the planes can't land on. Or
:47:50. > :47:55.planes, the whole skin has come through and they've thrown it out
:47:55. > :47:58.the window! The same people are going to be in the same squads when
:47:58. > :48:04.the squaddy is signing on somewhere. So regardless of which Government
:48:04. > :48:09.is in office? I don't consider Labour to be a Government. Whoever
:48:09. > :48:14.is in. LAUGHTER Angela Epstein? It's a shame that we think so
:48:14. > :48:17.little of our national security that we've reduced it to a level of
:48:17. > :48:21.bean counting. As Ming said, the first priority of a Government is
:48:21. > :48:26.to protect its people. This Government has dedicated itself to
:48:26. > :48:32.chasing round the world fighting far-flung campaigns. Ten years in
:48:32. > :48:38.Afghanistan proves it doesn't work. Al-Qaeda is a nebulous force. It is
:48:38. > :48:44.like fixing holes in a leaking roof, as soon as you fix one hole,
:48:44. > :48:47.another opens. The human issue of all these people losing their jobs
:48:47. > :48:52.who've committed themselves nobodyly to serving their country.
:48:52. > :48:58.I wonder if Prince Harry is to be one of those made redundant by the
:48:58. > :49:02.way. Will this lead to a more mechanised form of welfare. We have
:49:02. > :49:07.to protect this island realm. Wars aren't predictable. You don't get a
:49:07. > :49:12.memo on 17th September we might have a nice little skirmish
:49:12. > :49:17.somewhere. We have to marshall our defences to protect this people and
:49:17. > :49:22.if we can't do it with people, we have to do it mechanicly. It's a
:49:22. > :49:27.different ball game it is dangerous. It is not strategic. It leads to an
:49:27. > :49:33.immense loss of civilian life. We have to think of our Army and what
:49:33. > :49:37.be left behind. And it is much more expensive. You say you didn't see
:49:37. > :49:41.the Arab Spring or the problems that are happening in Mali. Is
:49:41. > :49:46.anybody watching what's going on in the Falklands at the moment or have
:49:46. > :49:53.we done a deal in France in return for assistance in Mali, that they
:49:53. > :49:58.don't get involved in Argentina? Ian Hislop, you can do that one.
:49:58. > :50:03.That's right up your street. Absolutely. No, I'm sure there is
:50:03. > :50:08.no deal done with the French. What's happening in the Falkland is
:50:08. > :50:13.a veryen popular politician in Argentina is attempting to buy some
:50:13. > :50:19.credibility by sabre-rattling. Partly due to the very poor
:50:19. > :50:23.treatment of the Argentinian veterans, who end up protesting
:50:24. > :50:29.against their treatment. These are the conscripts. No, it is a great
:50:30. > :50:33.deal of sound and fury. The trouble is if you don't take it seriously,
:50:33. > :50:37.it turns into something worse, which is what happened last name in
:50:38. > :50:42.the Falklands. As far as I know there's a ship down there and it is
:50:42. > :50:46.being taken seriously. If we cut the Army down to 80,000, the
:50:46. > :50:51.Algerian Army is about 100,000. Are they going to borrow our troops? We
:50:51. > :50:56.should be borrowing theirs! It is very, very small. And it means
:50:56. > :51:01.there's very little you can do. can't really call it an Army any
:51:01. > :51:08.more. We've got a UK Defence Force really. APPLAUSE We've got under
:51:09. > :51:16.ten minutes left. One more question. This is from Matthew Lambley please.
:51:16. > :51:22.Are poor people fat? Are poor people fat? I ought to give you the
:51:22. > :51:27.context. LAUGHTER It is something that the Minister for health sits
:51:27. > :51:31.on my right here said in, or is reported to have said. I didn't say
:51:31. > :51:35.that. When I go to my constituency, in fact when I walk around, you can
:51:35. > :51:39.almost now tell somebody's background by their weight.
:51:39. > :51:42.Obviously not everybody who is overweight comes from deprived
:51:42. > :51:45.backgrounds but that's where the propresencity lies. She was making
:51:45. > :51:51.a serious point, as Minister of health, trying to gate people eat
:51:51. > :51:55.properly and the rest of it. So the question is, are poor people fat? I
:51:55. > :51:58.won't start with you Anna. Ben Bradshaw? Look, if you look at the
:51:58. > :52:02.figures that the Department of Health has issued, the thinnest
:52:02. > :52:05.people are poor men and wealthy women. When it comes to children,
:52:05. > :52:11.the difference in the levels of obesity between children from the
:52:11. > :52:17.least and the best well off families is tiny. It is 1.5% for
:52:17. > :52:20.girls and 0.7% for boys. So don't let's pretend that obesity or
:52:20. > :52:25.people being overweight is just something that poor people suffer.
:52:25. > :52:31.From it's a problem throughout society. To be perfectly honest I
:52:31. > :52:35.find it deeply offensive for well- off Ministers to hector poor people,
:52:35. > :52:39.many of whom struggle to make the healthy choices that people here on
:52:39. > :52:44.this panel find perfectly easy thank you very much when they are
:52:44. > :52:48.cutting healthy school meals, cutting school sport, cutting
:52:48. > :52:52.breakfast clubs. You need a joined- up policy across Government to
:52:52. > :52:57.tackle obesity. Not Ministers who frankly if they were submitted to a
:52:57. > :53:07.body mass index test most of whom would fail, lecturing the poor.
:53:07. > :53:09.
:53:09. > :53:14.APPLAUSE Anna Soubry, you are accused of
:53:14. > :53:20.hectoring people. The quote was ackstphrat It was accurate but was
:53:20. > :53:23.taken -- the quote was accurate? It was accurate but taken out of
:53:23. > :53:28.context. Ben Bradshaw, I don't know where you got your statistics. From
:53:28. > :53:32.I can assure you that first of all, one third of all children now
:53:32. > :53:38.leaving primary school are either overweight or obese. When you look
:53:38. > :53:45.at obesity levels amongst those who come from the most deprived of
:53:45. > :53:50.backgrounds, 23% of children from the most deprived backgrounds are
:53:51. > :53:56.recorded now as being obese. Those were the figures published in
:53:56. > :54:03.December. Obese. Sorry, there is a difference between being obese. I
:54:03. > :54:07.know. I'm a (Inaudible) as well. With respect, you don't sound like
:54:07. > :54:12.it. When you demair figure with those children from the more
:54:12. > :54:17.affluent backgrounds, that figure is 13%. These are not made up
:54:17. > :54:22.statistics. What was the point you are trying to make by drawing
:54:22. > :54:25.attention to this? I was at a conference with the Food and Drink
:54:25. > :54:28.Federation. The point I was trying to make is we as individuals must
:54:28. > :54:33.take responsibility for what we eat and drink. As parents we should be
:54:33. > :54:36.responsible for what our children eat and drink. I was at this
:54:36. > :54:39.conference. You are saying these people are not taking
:54:39. > :54:42.responsibility? No, I'm saying we should all take responsibility for
:54:42. > :54:48.what we eat and drink and the way that we feed our children. But I
:54:48. > :54:51.was at a conference to talk to the people that make mainly fast food,
:54:51. > :54:55.but also the catering industry. I was saying to them that they, too,
:54:55. > :55:00.have a responsibility. They have a responsibility for the financial
:55:00. > :55:07.cost to our nation. It is estimated that �5 billion of our more than in
:55:07. > :55:11.the NHS is spent as a result of us being overweight or obese. Why were
:55:11. > :55:14.you not just saying there are too many? Because it is part of a
:55:14. > :55:18.speech and it has been taken out of the speech. What I was saying to
:55:18. > :55:21.the manufacturers of fast food and to caterers is they've not only got
:55:22. > :55:26.a financial responsibility but they have a moral responsibility to make
:55:26. > :55:32.sure that they reduce the amount of fat, sugar and salt in their meals
:55:32. > :55:39.that they sell on to us. Angela Epstein? It is very easy and low to
:55:39. > :55:46.stigmatise the law. I didn't stigmatise the poor. If I may, we
:55:46. > :55:50.have heard what you said Anna. graent length! Because if you are
:55:50. > :55:57.from a certain background you don't know the difference between fat and
:55:57. > :56:05.salt. I know people who don't have time when dashing around the
:56:05. > :56:08.supermarket to study the labelling. MPs with a very wide girth sitting
:56:09. > :56:13.in the Palace of Westminster. There are people with a chaotic family
:56:13. > :56:19.life. People are time poor, work poor. They don't sit around the
:56:19. > :56:23.dinner table any more. I also talked about that. It is possibly
:56:23. > :56:27.because they are working hard to put the food on the table. It is so
:56:27. > :56:32.easy to say that because you're overweight you are eating all the
:56:32. > :56:36.wrong foods. Women comfort eat. Speak to anybody who has had a
:56:36. > :56:43.heartbreak and they nose dive into a box of chocolates. The question,
:56:43. > :56:48.is are poor people fat? Of course they are not.
:56:48. > :56:51.I read this speech. Not all of it, my dear. Only what was reported.
:56:51. > :56:55.You did have a go at the food industry, which I thought was
:56:55. > :56:59.terrific. The headline was the bit where you made the link. But it is
:56:59. > :57:03.not just mad right-wingers, the Child Poverty Action Group today
:57:03. > :57:08.supported her saying there was a link between childhood obesity and
:57:08. > :57:13.eating the wrong thing. I'm not a mad right-winger by the way.
:57:14. > :57:20.I'm just positing those types. LAUGHTER I'm trying to say you made
:57:20. > :57:24.a perfectly good point. My party says I'm a pinko. The truth is you
:57:24. > :57:28.should be laying into the industry and the industry will not be
:57:28. > :57:31.regulated. Ben's lot said we'll have a voluntary agreement with the
:57:31. > :57:33.food and drink industry about food and drink and they will regulate
:57:33. > :57:39.themselves. They didn't do it. Obesity continues and there is
:57:39. > :57:46.still a problem with it. I think this lot you've finally got to get
:57:46. > :57:51.them. Exact them. Ming. You can almost now tell someone's
:57:51. > :57:55.background by their weight, is what Anna said. True or false? I don't
:57:55. > :58:01.believe that's universally the case. Can we accept we've got a problem
:58:01. > :58:05.about obesity however it arises? Can we accept that we should make
:58:05. > :58:11.sure that education in schools helps young people to understand
:58:11. > :58:16.what healthy eating is? APPLAUSE have to insist we agree on silence
:58:16. > :58:21.now from our panel, because sadly our time's up. In fact we are over
:58:21. > :58:24.it. We are going to be next week in it. We are going to be next week in
:58:24. > :58:32.Lancaster. The week after that we'll be? Stirling.
:58:32. > :58:36.If you want to come to the programme: