0:00:02 > 0:00:04We're in Leicester tonight. Welcome to Question Time.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10Good evening to all of you watching at home
0:00:10 > 0:00:13and to our audience here, and of course to our panel,
0:00:13 > 0:00:17a Conservative Culture Secretary and Equality Minister, Maria Miller,
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Labour's Shadow Environment Secretary, Mary Creagh,
0:00:21 > 0:00:23the Liberal Democrat peer Susan Kramer,
0:00:23 > 0:00:27who sits on the parliamentary commission investigating the banks,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30the Respect MP George Galloway,
0:00:30 > 0:00:34who returned to parliament last year after the Bradford West by-election,
0:00:34 > 0:00:37and the editor of The Spectator, Fraser Nelson.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40APPLAUSE
0:00:49 > 0:00:51I'm not sure our first question
0:00:51 > 0:00:53will come as an amazing surprise to everybody.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57It's from Nadine Lynes, please. Nadine Lynes.
0:00:57 > 0:01:01Who is to blame for the horse meat scandal?
0:01:01 > 0:01:07Is it profit-driven supermarkets, incompetent food industry regulators
0:01:07 > 0:01:09or consumers demanding ever-cheaper food?
0:01:09 > 0:01:12So we've got three options - profit-driven supermarkets,
0:01:12 > 0:01:17incompetent regulators or consumers wanting cheaper food.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Mary Creagh.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Well, I think it has to be, erm,
0:01:22 > 0:01:27I'm not going to blame people on very low incomes for wanting to buy
0:01:27 > 0:01:30meat products for their families to feed them that are good value,
0:01:30 > 0:01:33so I'm certainly not going to blame consumers for wanting a good deal
0:01:33 > 0:01:35when everybody is really feeling the squeeze
0:01:35 > 0:01:39from wages stagnating and prices going up.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43But I do think there is an issue about what is happening to our...
0:01:43 > 0:01:48the food system. I think there's an issue about criminal,
0:01:48 > 0:01:51systematic adulteration of the food system,
0:01:51 > 0:01:53which we now know spreads across Europe,
0:01:53 > 0:01:56and I think that the processors have been too quick
0:01:56 > 0:01:58to look for very cheap meat,
0:01:58 > 0:02:02and the supermarkets have also perhaps pressed them down on prices
0:02:02 > 0:02:06and not conducted some of the testing that they could have done
0:02:06 > 0:02:10to get ahead of what is now a very widespread problem.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13It seems to get...by the minute, more and more stories come out,
0:02:13 > 0:02:15more and more supermarkets withdraw stuff.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Is any of it dangerous, or is it a matter of being lied to by people,
0:02:18 > 0:02:20that you think you're buying beef
0:02:20 > 0:02:22and you're getting horse meat instead?
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Well, people have a right to know that the food that they're buying
0:02:25 > 0:02:29is correctly labelled, is legal and is safe for them to eat,
0:02:29 > 0:02:31and what started out as a bit of a...
0:02:31 > 0:02:35three or four weeks ago, when Ireland announced they'd found
0:02:35 > 0:02:38the adulteration in the burger products, it was a bit of a joke,
0:02:38 > 0:02:40there were a lot of horse jokes going around.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42I think with last week's developments with Findus,
0:02:42 > 0:02:45where we saw that it was coming in from another route,
0:02:45 > 0:02:46from continental Europe,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49the events that we've seen even just this evening
0:02:49 > 0:02:53with arrests taking place, with schools,
0:02:53 > 0:02:54Staffordshire County Council
0:02:54 > 0:02:58withdrawing products in its schools, and erm,
0:02:58 > 0:03:02it now turning up in a fresh product this evening in a supermarket,
0:03:02 > 0:03:05we're finding that it's actually,
0:03:05 > 0:03:07it's much more widespread than we could have first thought,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10and obviously, the more you look for it, the more you find.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12You, sir.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15Could this food crisis have been prevented
0:03:15 > 0:03:18had the Labour government in 2003
0:03:18 > 0:03:21not withdrawn random processed meat testing?
0:03:21 > 0:03:23Well...
0:03:23 > 0:03:25APPLAUSE
0:03:25 > 0:03:30- Fraser Nelson.- I was rather waiting for Mary's answer on that.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32You'll get it in a moment, but she's had two answers already.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35It's true that the Food Standards Agency was Labour's creation,
0:03:35 > 0:03:37and at the time the Conservatives were saying,
0:03:37 > 0:03:41"Look, these guys are not going to be able to keep a proper check
0:03:41 > 0:03:43"on the supermarkets," but I don't think you can blame
0:03:43 > 0:03:45either Labour or the government for this.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48This is the problem, simply, of the food companies.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51I would lay the blame squarely at the door of Findus.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54We've been amazed by the length of the supply chain.
0:03:54 > 0:03:59A Swedish company using Cypriot, Dutch, French, Luxembourg, all these
0:03:59 > 0:04:02companies, and in a way, it's not surprising that a scamster
0:04:02 > 0:04:06would try to insert some fraudulent product into that supply chain.
0:04:06 > 0:04:07But who's responsible for making sure?
0:04:07 > 0:04:11I think it's the company, and the company should be punished.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13See, for the last ten years,
0:04:13 > 0:04:16we're not sure what meat we've been eating.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20And what I'm really annoyed about is the fact that that's happened.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22For the last ten years, we do not know.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26Now we're being told that, "It's just horse meat, it's safe."
0:04:26 > 0:04:27How do we know that?
0:04:27 > 0:04:31We do not know how this meat's being transported, processed or stored.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33OK, George Galloway.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37But the back end of the pantomime horse has to be government.
0:04:37 > 0:04:38We don't elect Findus.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40We don't elect food companies.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44We elect government to protect us.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48And the reality is that not only, as you put it,
0:04:48 > 0:04:53did the Labour government abandon random testing of processed foods,
0:04:53 > 0:04:59but the Tories have cut 700 food standards officers.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02Now what kind of false economy is that?
0:05:02 > 0:05:06What's the cost to the country as a whole?
0:05:06 > 0:05:10And they throw their hands up and say,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13"We didn't know what was going into the food."
0:05:13 > 0:05:16Well, if they didn't know horse was going into the food,
0:05:16 > 0:05:19what else is going into the food that they don't know about?
0:05:19 > 0:05:20That's the point.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22APPLAUSE
0:05:22 > 0:05:25And so, the answer to the question, David,
0:05:25 > 0:05:28is the responsibility lies with profiteering food companies, yes,
0:05:28 > 0:05:32but the people who are supposed to regulate the activities
0:05:32 > 0:05:36of business in this country are the elected politicians,
0:05:36 > 0:05:39and they're just not even at the starting gate on that.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42OK, well, we've got two, we've got the former Labour
0:05:42 > 0:05:45and the current Tory. Let's come to the Tories first.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48- Have you cut 700, is that the figure you gave?- Yes, 700.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51I think what the chief executive of the FSA has made very clear...
0:05:51 > 0:05:54that she has exactly the right resources that she needs.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57She would say that! You're paying her a big salary to say that!
0:05:57 > 0:06:00- And we're still undertaking... - You sacked 700 officers. Yes or no?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03And we're still undertaking 90,000 tests a year,
0:06:03 > 0:06:05and I think that's important,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08but what we mustn't do here is get away from the fact that
0:06:08 > 0:06:13there has been potentially a mass European-wide fraud going on,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16and I think as things unfold, we can see that,
0:06:16 > 0:06:21certainly when it comes to the Great British public being able to
0:06:21 > 0:06:25go out and buy food on our shelves and know what they're buying,
0:06:25 > 0:06:29yes there has been, I think, some enormous problems in people's...
0:06:29 > 0:06:34But is the Food Standards Agency responsible for making sure
0:06:34 > 0:06:39that if you buy a cut of meat or a hamburger which says it's beef,
0:06:39 > 0:06:43it is beef and not beef plus pork or beef plus horse?
0:06:43 > 0:06:44Is that the job of the FSA?
0:06:44 > 0:06:47What the FSA is there to do is make sure that we do have good standards,
0:06:47 > 0:06:51- but it can't account for...- No, but is it responsible for the content?
0:06:51 > 0:06:54But what it can't account for is the fact that there has been
0:06:54 > 0:06:57potentially a mass fraud on a European scale here,
0:06:57 > 0:06:59and we have to take that into account.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01Why can't it account for that, if it's doing its job?
0:07:01 > 0:07:05When it comes to looking at who is culpable here,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07we have to say that those individual companies
0:07:07 > 0:07:10that are putting products on our shelves,
0:07:10 > 0:07:12labelling them as beef and then not being beef,
0:07:12 > 0:07:15then the responsibility really has to lie at the manufacturing arm.
0:07:15 > 0:07:16So George is wrong to say
0:07:16 > 0:07:19government should be able to do anything about it?
0:07:19 > 0:07:20I think that the first
0:07:20 > 0:07:23and prime responsibility has to be with the manufacturers,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26because all of us who go into our supermarkets
0:07:26 > 0:07:29expect the products on our shelves to be what is on the label.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32OK, no hold on, you've had your say. The woman up there, sorry.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35The woman up there on the left, on the gangway.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38The supermarkets don't much care where their products come from
0:07:38 > 0:07:41as long as they get it for the right price and can make
0:07:41 > 0:07:44a lot of profit on it, and that's the issue at the end of the day.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46It's just profit, it's getting things as cheap as possible.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49And it's a shame, really, that we can't go back to using local
0:07:49 > 0:07:52independent stores that source their products locally.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54I appreciate the supermarkets for people that are on a really
0:07:54 > 0:07:57tight income are the answer, but we really need to get back
0:07:57 > 0:08:00to supporting our own local independent stores
0:08:00 > 0:08:02that can help us to know what we're eating.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05APPLAUSE
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Susan Kramer, I'll come back to you about Labour's role,
0:08:11 > 0:08:13but Susan Kramer, what do you think?
0:08:13 > 0:08:17Well, I strongly agree with the lady who just talked about local food.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21This is fraud, it's got to be prosecuted, it's got to be hit hard,
0:08:21 > 0:08:24and I hope people end up in handcuffs and in jail as a consequence of this,
0:08:24 > 0:08:28but I am worried about the length of the food chain.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31This starts out in Romania, it goes to France, it goes to Holland,
0:08:31 > 0:08:35Sweden...I don't know that any regulator,
0:08:35 > 0:08:38no matter how staffed they are,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41and how good and strong they are, can really keep
0:08:41 > 0:08:45a grip on a food chain that is this long and this complex.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48I hope that when we come out of this,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51there is some review of the sort of length of the food chain
0:08:51 > 0:08:56and whether or not we can shorten this and build much more focus
0:08:56 > 0:08:59and intense traceability throughout the whole system.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02- More expensive, though. - It may be more expensive,
0:09:02 > 0:09:05but there is a price to pay when you go cheap.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09And that price is that you create an opportunity for bad people, and
0:09:09 > 0:09:13unfortunately there are bad people, to come in and exploit the system...
0:09:13 > 0:09:16And do you make it easier for them
0:09:16 > 0:09:19by abolishing 700 Food Standard Agency officers
0:09:19 > 0:09:21or do you make it harder?
0:09:21 > 0:09:24The sad part is, you could probably have the 700,
0:09:24 > 0:09:27and I've no idea what different things they were doing.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29My question is, even if you had them back again,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32would that have made the key difference or is this
0:09:32 > 0:09:36so complex and so wide and so interesting, essentially,
0:09:36 > 0:09:40to the criminal bodies, that that isn't going to be the answer?
0:09:40 > 0:09:43Sometimes you have to look at the structure of things,
0:09:43 > 0:09:46not simply say, "We just have to have a stronger regulator."
0:09:46 > 0:09:49I want a strong regulator, but we must look at structure.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52So, you know, support your local butcher, and...
0:09:52 > 0:09:55What, and make your own hamburgers?
0:09:55 > 0:10:00If you have to eat a little less meat but better meat, that is tough,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04and I know that's not easy, but there are other benefits that come with it.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06Well, everybody...
0:10:06 > 0:10:08APPLAUSE
0:10:08 > 0:10:10We could all become vegetarian.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12There are a lot of people with their hands up.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14So I'd like to hear your views, actually.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17The person there in spectacles, in the fourth row.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20I've got two young children and they're even asking me now,
0:10:20 > 0:10:24"What is safe to eat?" They're looking on the news as well,
0:10:24 > 0:10:26and it's not just the beef burgers,
0:10:26 > 0:10:28it's the chicken coming out with the chicken nuggets
0:10:28 > 0:10:32and everything, and it is very worrying, and you think,
0:10:32 > 0:10:35"Well, who can you trust... what can you trust to eat?"
0:10:35 > 0:10:38What do you say to them, and do you go on feeding them...?
0:10:38 > 0:10:40Oh, well, obviously you feed them, yeah.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44LAUGHTER DROWNS SPEECH
0:10:44 > 0:10:49No, I look on the boxes and it says 100% beef or 100% chicken,
0:10:49 > 0:10:50and it's not.
0:10:50 > 0:10:56There's 98% or 50% or 76%, so it's like, what are you actually eating
0:10:56 > 0:11:00that's, you know, it's packed with all these different ingredients.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05- What can you trust?- OK, and the man, bang in the middle there, up there.
0:11:05 > 0:11:06- Yes, you.- This horse meat scandal
0:11:06 > 0:11:08has been going on for almost a month now
0:11:08 > 0:11:11and we're still no closer to finding out where it actually
0:11:11 > 0:11:13comes from or how many products are affected.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16Why is the government being so slow to act on this?
0:11:16 > 0:11:19And in regards to the lady's comment before about how it's
0:11:19 > 0:11:21travelling from Romania to France to Sweden,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24so it's too big, that's a bit of a cop-out answer.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26Saying, "Well, this task was too big,
0:11:26 > 0:11:28"so we're not going to take it on," isn't right.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30If the task is too big, you need to take it on.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32The panel listening carefully to this,
0:11:32 > 0:11:35but we'll hear from one or two other people.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38You, sir, the man in the blue and white striped shirt, yes.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41I think the Food Standards Agency is in the same situation
0:11:41 > 0:11:43the financial services was in four years ago.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46I think the government hasn't got any hold of what's going on
0:11:46 > 0:11:50and it's...I think we're just being run by a bunch of Eton grads
0:11:50 > 0:11:52who don't know how to run a country.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54APPLAUSE
0:11:54 > 0:11:58The man in the bright blue with silver on. You there, sir.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02I think what the problem is is the government is, erm, it's not
0:12:02 > 0:12:05putting enough funds into the study of where the meat comes from.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08This horse meat, you know, horses get given this drug called,
0:12:08 > 0:12:11- what is it? Phenylbutin?- Bute, yeah.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13Now, that is obviously hazardous to humans
0:12:13 > 0:12:15so surely that should be a red light for the government to say,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18"Hang on! Why aren't we really being stringent with this
0:12:18 > 0:12:21"and protecting people's lives?" We can't really buy meat
0:12:21 > 0:12:23if everyone's going to start becoming ill because A,
0:12:23 > 0:12:27people are going to lose faith in the producers, supermarkets,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30the government, and then it'll just be a total collapse.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32OK, Mary Creagh, do you think it's as dangerous as that, bute,
0:12:32 > 0:12:36because somebody was on television saying you'd have to
0:12:36 > 0:12:42eat 500 hamburgers a day to get even a trace of this bute.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44That's presumably in adults,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46but the dose for children would be a lot lower.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49- So you're alarmed by it, are you?- No.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50What I say is that I raised the issue
0:12:50 > 0:12:53of bute-contaminated horses being slaughtered in the UK
0:12:53 > 0:12:56with ministers on the floor of the House of Commons
0:12:56 > 0:12:57exactly three weeks ago.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01I had evidence that they were entering the food chain.
0:13:01 > 0:13:02What I want to know is,
0:13:02 > 0:13:06why did the government then start testing every horse in UK abattoirs,
0:13:06 > 0:13:10but still keep releasing them into the human food chain?
0:13:10 > 0:13:12That is simply not good enough.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14Ministers have been asleep on the job on this,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17and I'm afraid they cannot just keep hiding behind FSA officials,
0:13:17 > 0:13:19when actually they've been
0:13:19 > 0:13:23so catastrophically slow to act, and I just want to come back on this...
0:13:23 > 0:13:25George Galloway said about Labour.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Well, and the gentleman at the front who said we ended random testing.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32We did not end random testing. The last time we had intelligence
0:13:32 > 0:13:35that horse may have been in the food chain was 2003.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37There was no evidence from then to 2010...
0:13:37 > 0:13:40GALLOWAY: That's not random. That's intelligence-led.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42That's right, it's intelligence-led
0:13:42 > 0:13:44and the last piece of intelligence that the government received
0:13:44 > 0:13:47was in November last year when the food safety authority of Ireland
0:13:47 > 0:13:50said, "We're going to start testing for horse,"
0:13:50 > 0:13:53and they thought, "That's lovely. Ring us when you've got the results."
0:13:53 > 0:13:57Look, I think we're really got to be very careful here.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59You've been attacked for being dozy on the job.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02OK, I think we've got to be really careful here.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Yes, we need to have strong regulation in an area like this,
0:14:05 > 0:14:09but also we should expect that people who are producing products,
0:14:09 > 0:14:11putting them on our shelves, labelling them as beef
0:14:11 > 0:14:14and they're not beef, they have to be held to account.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17And we need to make sure that people are not let off the hook
0:14:17 > 0:14:20here by some political will to try and point score...
0:14:20 > 0:14:24But can I clarify one point, Maria.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Is it, in your view, the government's job to make sure,
0:14:27 > 0:14:31if I buy a can, and it says "Beef,"
0:14:31 > 0:14:34is it your job to make sure it is beef or somebody else's job?
0:14:34 > 0:14:38I think it's absolutely squarely the role of both the manufacturer
0:14:38 > 0:14:39and also the retailer
0:14:39 > 0:14:42to make sure the products that are on their shelves...
0:14:42 > 0:14:44- And not yours? - ..are absolutely as they should be.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47Everybody is blaming government, both governments,
0:14:47 > 0:14:49for not checking that that's beef.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51The government has got a role to check that,
0:14:51 > 0:14:54- but the primary responsibility... - CREAGH: You haven't done it.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56- The primary responsibility... - You haven't conducted any...
0:14:56 > 0:14:59..when you're dealing with a mass fraud on a pan-European scale...
0:14:59 > 0:15:01GALLOWAY: David, they're trying...
0:15:01 > 0:15:03All right, you say the government has a role,
0:15:03 > 0:15:05but I'd like to know what the role is,
0:15:05 > 0:15:08whether you've been fulfilling it. George Galloway.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10They're faffing around in this debate.
0:15:10 > 0:15:15The Liberal Democrats and the Tories want to blame it on criminals.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18I may say, if it's all just a criminal matter,
0:15:18 > 0:15:21why did the Tories take three weeks to call in the police?
0:15:21 > 0:15:24Because that's what it took them before they asked
0:15:24 > 0:15:28the police in this country to start treating it as a crime.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31But this goes to the heart of the matter.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34There are consequences to deregulation.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36The Tories are always talking about,
0:15:36 > 0:15:40"We need to get rid of red tape and deregulate this."
0:15:40 > 0:15:43These are the kind of consequences that occur when you deregulate,
0:15:43 > 0:15:46and there are consequences to sacking public servants.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49So George, you want to let the manufacturers off the hook, then?
0:15:49 > 0:15:53No, but I hold you responsible for what happens in this country,
0:15:53 > 0:15:58not Findus! We didn't elect Findus! We can't remove Findus!
0:15:58 > 0:16:01But we can elect and remove you, and I promise you, the British people
0:16:01 > 0:16:03- are about to do it. - So you'll turn a blind eye
0:16:03 > 0:16:06to people who are potentially committing a fraud?
0:16:06 > 0:16:09Not a blind eye, throw them in jail instead of in the House of Lords!
0:16:09 > 0:16:13The House of Lords is filled with...I don't want a blind eye!
0:16:13 > 0:16:16I want you to face up to this!
0:16:16 > 0:16:19If you sack police officers, there are consequences.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24If you sack Food Standards Agency inspectors, there are consequences.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28It's time to end this cutting of public service workers as if
0:16:28 > 0:16:32public servants were some rubbish that can be easily dispensed of!
0:16:32 > 0:16:35CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:16:36 > 0:16:38You, sir.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Just like to point out that in 2008,
0:16:41 > 0:16:43when the banks collapsed all over the entire world,
0:16:43 > 0:16:45we blamed Gordon Brown and Alastair Campbell,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48at least the Tory government, the Tory people did.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52Now that the entire country's food processing is in problems,
0:16:52 > 0:16:56we need to blame David Cameron and George Osbourne.
0:16:56 > 0:16:57The buck stops with them.
0:16:57 > 0:16:58Fraser Nelson?
0:16:58 > 0:17:02Food labelling is a competence of the European Union, actually.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04We don't know if you can have any control over it any more.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06What happens happens in Brussels.
0:17:06 > 0:17:08The crime that happened happened in France.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11The thing is, George, if your 700 food inspectors,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13you could have 7,000 of them,
0:17:13 > 0:17:17they would never be able to probe every freezer, every
0:17:17 > 0:17:20supermarket, cos we've got millions of lines of food in this country...
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Is it better now there's 700 less? Is that what you're saying?
0:17:23 > 0:17:25Are you arguing it's better that we've got 700 less?
0:17:25 > 0:17:27Also, their job is not to look for horses,
0:17:27 > 0:17:30their job is to look for food safety, which means food poisoning,
0:17:30 > 0:17:32and there are 500 people who die every year of food poisoning
0:17:32 > 0:17:34and that's what the FSA does.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36It doesn't go around, to answer your question,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38checking to see if horses, perhaps it should,
0:17:38 > 0:17:40but if that's what these guys were doing if they were back,
0:17:40 > 0:17:44perhaps...they probably would not have detected this. Now that...
0:17:44 > 0:17:48CREAGH: No, Fraser, you said that it's a European competence.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51This government has blocked attempts by the European Commission
0:17:51 > 0:17:56to get country-of-origin labelling on processed meats.
0:17:56 > 0:17:57They blocked it in 2011.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00Owen Patterson went to Europe yesterday, came back and said,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03"I want this labelling in by December 31st."
0:18:03 > 0:18:06Suddenly, he's had a Damascene conversion to European regulation.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08The Euro-sceptic suddenly wants more of it!
0:18:08 > 0:18:11It's been an extraordinary week in parliament where
0:18:11 > 0:18:13we've had Bill Cash and Christopher Chope,
0:18:13 > 0:18:15the arch Euro-sceptics suddenly saying,
0:18:15 > 0:18:18"The European Commission has got to do something about this!"
0:18:18 > 0:18:20We don't have the power to do it any more in our own country.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23That's a convenient Tory myth to cover up the fact that the
0:18:23 > 0:18:26Food Standards Agency, when it was set up by Labour,
0:18:26 > 0:18:27was a world leader in the whole area
0:18:27 > 0:18:30and it was independent from government.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34- Did it work well, given the results? - It worked well, and this government,
0:18:34 > 0:18:37when it came in, removed nutritional labelling to health,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40it removed compositional labelling, what is in the product,
0:18:40 > 0:18:42over to Defra. It's Defra ministers
0:18:42 > 0:18:45that are responsible for the labelling of your food.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49And you think it is possible to check hamburgers,
0:18:49 > 0:18:53tinned food, the whole range of things if Defra
0:18:53 > 0:18:57is doing its job properly? If Defra is doing its job properly?
0:18:57 > 0:19:00Defra has moved it back in-house. It is clearly not the right place
0:19:00 > 0:19:02for it to be. They've broken up the system.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06They've got to get on with it, put it right. If the system
0:19:06 > 0:19:08can't tell us if our food is fit to eat,
0:19:08 > 0:19:09the system is not fit for purpose.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13Not fit to eat, it's whether it's what it says.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16That's fit to eat. We don't want to eat beef when it's actually horse.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18You're making a very dangerous blur here.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21The lady's children are asking, is this food safe to eat?
0:19:21 > 0:19:23To listen to the Labour Party in the last few days
0:19:23 > 0:19:27you would get the impression that there was a health hazard,
0:19:27 > 0:19:30and there isn't. Horses are actually fine.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33In The Spectator we've got a guide about what to drink
0:19:33 > 0:19:35with horsemeat in this week's magazine.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37If it is coming in from criminals, I doubt
0:19:37 > 0:19:40they've followed proper food hygiene standards on the way in.
0:19:40 > 0:19:41Let me just quote...
0:19:41 > 0:19:43The Chief Medical Officer...
0:19:43 > 0:19:45APPLAUSE
0:19:45 > 0:19:50I don't know whether you trust what she says,
0:19:50 > 0:19:55but she says a person would have to eat 500 to 600
0:19:55 > 0:20:00100% horsemeat burgers, just think of this, a day,
0:20:00 > 0:20:06to get close to consuming a human's daily dose of bute. Who knows?
0:20:06 > 0:20:09The woman up there, the blonde lady on the right. Yes.
0:20:10 > 0:20:15What we haven't mentioned is actually who is eating these products.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17It is the poor, the people on low incomes,
0:20:17 > 0:20:21those that have been made unemployed by the Government.
0:20:21 > 0:20:26People whose benefits are going to get squeezed because of bedroom tax,
0:20:26 > 0:20:29council tax changes and so on. These are the people
0:20:29 > 0:20:32that are buying the value products. It's the poor
0:20:32 > 0:20:34that are being defrauded,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37both by the way the Government is treating them
0:20:37 > 0:20:41and scapegoating them and by now by these alleged criminal gangs,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44which are making their money out of other people's poverty.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49A lot of people are having to go to food banks because they can't afford
0:20:49 > 0:20:52to buy the food that they choose.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55So those that can buy their food are buying the lowest things
0:20:55 > 0:20:57because that's all they can afford
0:20:57 > 0:20:59- and they are the ones being conned. - OK.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01APPLAUSE
0:21:04 > 0:21:08On that note, though I know a number of you are waiting to speak,
0:21:08 > 0:21:11we'd better move on. We've got a lot of questions to come.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15You know at home you can join this debate by Twitter or by text.
0:21:15 > 0:21:21Our hashtag is #bbcqt. We've got this new idea running
0:21:21 > 0:21:23of a Twitter panellist who comments.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25You can comment on what the Twitter panellist says.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29It's Mark Pack form the website libdemvoice tonight.
0:21:29 > 0:21:37He's @bbcExtraGuest. If you want simply to text, 83981
0:21:37 > 0:21:40and the little red button will tell you what others are saying.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45Let's go on to another question. This is from Michael Joyce, please.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47Should the 10p tax be reinstated?
0:21:47 > 0:21:51This is the rage today apart from the beef. Should the 10p tax,
0:21:51 > 0:21:55which was abolished by Gordon Brown, be reinstated?
0:21:55 > 0:21:58It seems all the parties are circling around this,
0:21:58 > 0:22:01with the Tory backbenchers saying it should be
0:22:01 > 0:22:05and Labour saying it may be, and I don't know where we've got to.
0:22:05 > 0:22:10Maria Miller, would you like to see the 10p tax reinstated?
0:22:10 > 0:22:14Certainly I want to see the taxation regime in this country
0:22:14 > 0:22:16work better, particularly for people on lower incomes.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18That's what we've been working on
0:22:18 > 0:22:20for the last two-and-a-half years.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23My concern is the way the Labour Party have said they are going
0:22:23 > 0:22:27to pay for this, through what they call a mansion tax.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31That may sound on the surface very attractive.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33Yes, it does.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35But when you try and work out how that is
0:22:35 > 0:22:37actually going to happen,
0:22:37 > 0:22:41that anybody in this room who pays council tax would then be subject
0:22:41 > 0:22:44to their house being revalued. I think that if you remember
0:22:44 > 0:22:45the record of Labour
0:22:45 > 0:22:48under the last Government, where they doubled council tax
0:22:48 > 0:22:51for every single household in this country,
0:22:51 > 0:22:53saw the equivalent of a doubling of their council tax,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56I think we should all be very concerned indeed.
0:22:56 > 0:23:01- What would a mansion be?- I'm not sure I've seen the detail of that.
0:23:01 > 0:23:07- £2 million.- £2 million. £2 million. It's nicked straight from the...
0:23:07 > 0:23:10Poll tax, Maria. You're old enough to remember the poll tax?
0:23:10 > 0:23:15It is not that the mansions over £2 million would just be revalued,
0:23:15 > 0:23:17every household would need to be revalued.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Let's come back to the 10p tax. From the Tories' point of view,
0:23:21 > 0:23:23are you in favour of it being reinstated?
0:23:23 > 0:23:25The 10p rate?
0:23:25 > 0:23:29We've already cut taxes for 24 million people in this country.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33- Yes or no?- I'm not going to write the budget.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38- Would YOU like to see it?- I would like a tax regime that supports
0:23:38 > 0:23:43- people on lower incomes, whether it's a 10p tax...- You're the government.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48- So you don't rule out the 10p thing? - I don't rule it out. We need to
0:23:48 > 0:23:51understand how it is going to be paid for.
0:23:51 > 0:23:52That's the concern that I have got.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55You would like to see it in the budget if it could be paid for?
0:23:55 > 0:23:58I think anything that reduces taxation's got to be a good thing.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02- Well, I hope George is listening. - I am.- Susan Kramer?
0:24:03 > 0:24:07The 10p isn't good enough. What we've done so far
0:24:07 > 0:24:11is raise the starting point of tax. All the people
0:24:11 > 0:24:15who used to be in that 10p band and then Labour put it up to 20p,
0:24:15 > 0:24:19but that's all the people who used to be in that 10p band
0:24:19 > 0:24:22are no longer paying tax at all. They are completely out
0:24:22 > 0:24:27of the income tax category. We are getting it up to,
0:24:27 > 0:24:29by the end of this Parliament the starting point of tax
0:24:29 > 0:24:33will be £10,000 of earnings, that's up from
0:24:33 > 0:24:38£6,490 when Labour was in power.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41We are arguing that that should carry on up to the point
0:24:41 > 0:24:43that you are looking at minimum wage.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Somewhere around the £12,000 mark. That is much more effective.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50It genuinely takes those people out of tax,
0:24:50 > 0:24:53but it means that other people on the standard rate
0:24:53 > 0:24:56also benefit from the higher start.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59Are you in favour of the 10p tax being reinstated?
0:24:59 > 0:25:02- It is not enough. It is not enough. - But you are saying
0:25:02 > 0:25:05all these other things have been done.
0:25:05 > 0:25:08No, it will be done by 2015 up to 10,000.
0:25:08 > 0:25:12It's now at 9,000. It has got to go on to 12.
0:25:12 > 0:25:16That's a far better way to use your money. It's more costly
0:25:16 > 0:25:20but it is far better than this silly business of a 10p rate
0:25:20 > 0:25:24affecting £1,000 of income.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27I thought the Liberal Democrats wanted this?
0:25:27 > 0:25:31We want to raise the threshold, which is a far more effective way.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34The people who used to pay 10p,
0:25:34 > 0:25:37on that band which Labour raised,
0:25:37 > 0:25:43are out of tax altogether. That's exactly what we should be doing.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46Our tax cuts have to come to people at the bottom
0:25:46 > 0:25:48and people on standard rate.
0:25:48 > 0:25:52Are you against what Ed Miliband said today?
0:25:52 > 0:25:56- It is insufficient. - But are you against it?
0:25:56 > 0:26:00I'm not going to water down what I'm talking about
0:26:00 > 0:26:04and what my colleagues are fighting for in order to do a sort of
0:26:04 > 0:26:06pettiness of the Ed Miliband.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08- Petty?- It's not sufficient. It's too petty.
0:26:08 > 0:26:15The man in the middle with the black hair. You're waving, not drowning.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18In the last decade, Labour put the personal allowance up just over
0:26:18 > 0:26:22£2,000. When you removed that 10p rate, you clobbered
0:26:22 > 0:26:23some of the most poorest people.
0:26:23 > 0:26:29My brother is only earning £11,000 and that really hurt,
0:26:29 > 0:26:33so Labour don't put this gimmick in, "Here's a 10p"
0:26:33 > 0:26:37and whack it back off poor people, because it is not fair
0:26:37 > 0:26:39and it gives them false hope.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42Don't do it just to take it away from people,
0:26:42 > 0:26:44- it's not fair.- Mary Creagh?
0:26:44 > 0:26:45APPLAUSE
0:26:49 > 0:26:52Well, in response to your point, what we are
0:26:52 > 0:26:55saying today is yes, removing that 10p tax band
0:26:55 > 0:26:58was a mistake and here's what we plan to do
0:26:58 > 0:27:01at the next election to put it right. We are clear
0:27:01 > 0:27:04that we've had some very difficult economic news.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06The Bank of England talking about
0:27:06 > 0:27:09living standards being squeezed over the next three or four years.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12We know the economy is flatlining.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14The economy shrank over the last three months,
0:27:14 > 0:27:17so it is imperative that we have
0:27:17 > 0:27:21a recovery that is led from the bottom upwards,
0:27:21 > 0:27:22not from the top downwards,
0:27:22 > 0:27:25which is what this Government is doing.
0:27:25 > 0:27:27And Susan's colleagues voted for a tax cut for people
0:27:27 > 0:27:30earning over £1 million a year.
0:27:30 > 0:27:34They are going be getting a £100,000 tax cut this year.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37We don't think that's the right way.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40We don't want trickledown economics. We want bottom-up recovery.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42That's what this country needs.
0:27:42 > 0:27:47In ten years though, you only put the personal allowance up £2,000.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50That's not good enough. Ten years and only 2,000.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52You need to look at the whole package,
0:27:52 > 0:27:54in terms of working tax credits.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57I know that didn't work for people
0:27:57 > 0:27:59- who were single and without children.- Or the young people.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02We lifted a million people out of poverty. We lifted a million
0:28:02 > 0:28:04children out of poverty, a million pensioners.
0:28:04 > 0:28:06What about young working people?
0:28:06 > 0:28:09A significant achievement in dealing with the problem
0:28:09 > 0:28:11of poverty in our society.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14Can I just check one thing? Do you want to see this 10p tax rate
0:28:14 > 0:28:17as part of the next manifesto?
0:28:17 > 0:28:20We've said today this is our clear direction of travel.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24- It is a priority for us. - What's a direction of travel?
0:28:24 > 0:28:29Unlike George Osborne, who promised to raise the inheritance tax
0:28:29 > 0:28:32threshold to over £1 million, and this week said he
0:28:32 > 0:28:35wasn't able to do that, we are not going to make promises
0:28:35 > 0:28:40that we can't keep. We must not make promises
0:28:40 > 0:28:43and then renege on them.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47We want a fairer tax system and we are consulting
0:28:47 > 0:28:49on how to get it absolutely right.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52- So nobody can believe you will do it.- No. It's not
0:28:52 > 0:28:56even in their manifesto. Ed Miliband and Ed Balls said
0:28:56 > 0:28:59it's not going to be in the manifesto, so what is today
0:28:59 > 0:29:02- all about? - It's not a manifesto promise,
0:29:02 > 0:29:04- we're two years away from the election.- Well, there you go.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Absolute waste of time. You've given people false hope.
0:29:08 > 0:29:09George Galloway?
0:29:09 > 0:29:13I thought that it was a promise.
0:29:13 > 0:29:19I must have been driving up the M1 when this reneging on it occurred.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22I was about to congratulate Mr Miliband
0:29:22 > 0:29:26on finding some real Labour guts for a change,
0:29:26 > 0:29:32to say that a situation where some people live in £2 million mansions,
0:29:32 > 0:29:36and if they earn £1 million a year or more
0:29:36 > 0:29:38they are getting a £100,000 tax cut
0:29:38 > 0:29:41is the Tory-Liberal way.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43The Labour way is
0:29:43 > 0:29:46to cut the taxes of the people at the bottom.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49Not least because the people who earn the least,
0:29:49 > 0:29:52if you give them more by cutting their taxes,
0:29:52 > 0:29:54they will spend it, and they will spend it here,
0:29:54 > 0:29:59in our shops, on local services, local goods,
0:29:59 > 0:30:02and that will drive the economy.
0:30:02 > 0:30:06If you give a £100,000 tax rebate to a millionaire,
0:30:06 > 0:30:10he is spending it in Monte Carlo or spending it on his villa in Nice,
0:30:10 > 0:30:18or on another foreign tour. APPLAUSE
0:30:18 > 0:30:23The reality is the poorest people, the best engine for the economy
0:30:23 > 0:30:25is to cut the taxes of the people at the bottom.
0:30:25 > 0:30:30George, when you were in the governing party you did not do it.
0:30:30 > 0:30:31Let me tell you something.
0:30:31 > 0:30:35- Ironically... - Thanks for the reminder.
0:30:35 > 0:30:41I'm one of the very few people who told Gordon Goldfinger Brown,
0:30:41 > 0:30:46the man that sold off all our gold at the bottom of the market,
0:30:46 > 0:30:50I told him that scrapping the 10p tax rate was a grave mistake,
0:30:50 > 0:30:54one which has been acknowledged by Balls and Miliband today.
0:30:54 > 0:30:59OK. The man there in the second... very far back?
0:30:59 > 0:31:03What is the Government doing about tax evasion in this country?
0:31:04 > 0:31:07Tax evasion? It's a slightly different point.
0:31:09 > 0:31:10Anyway, Fraser Nelson?
0:31:10 > 0:31:13The important thing about the 10p tax is that
0:31:13 > 0:31:16there's even less to it than meets the eye. Ed Balls was asked,
0:31:16 > 0:31:21what will it mean to the worker? And he said £2 a week.
0:31:21 > 0:31:26When you withdraw the benefits and Working Tax Credits,
0:31:26 > 0:31:29it works out at 66p a week.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32That's what they call a promise, except it's not even a promise,
0:31:32 > 0:31:37even that has been reneged upon. I think the low-paid in this country
0:31:37 > 0:31:41deserve a lot better than these pitiful suggestions and overtures
0:31:41 > 0:31:43that on close inspection just collapse.
0:31:43 > 0:31:48One of the best things this coalition's done is cut tax
0:31:48 > 0:31:51for the poor by lifting people out of tax altogether.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53George talks about this as a Labour mission.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56The Tories and the Liberal Democrats have done this,
0:31:56 > 0:31:59that is the irony. We need to go further. Youth unemployment
0:31:59 > 0:32:03is at crisis levels so I think we need to have a major tax cut
0:32:03 > 0:32:05for the low-paid and by that, I would say
0:32:05 > 0:32:10give people the equivalent of a month's extra salary a year.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13That really would bring help to those that need it.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16I wish to God we would stop
0:32:16 > 0:32:20talking about these 10p tax things, which always end up being a con.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23They sound nice to start with.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26If the Labour Party was serious about helping working people
0:32:26 > 0:32:28it would come up with something that would genuinely
0:32:28 > 0:32:31leave more money in their pockets. APPLAUSE
0:32:36 > 0:32:40Just briefly, but a similar point, how would you pay for that?
0:32:40 > 0:32:43- One month?- There's many ways you could do it. There's lots of
0:32:43 > 0:32:45waste in Government, for example.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48I wouldn't be against borrowing more money to pay for that too.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51I don't think we have got the option of not cutting taxes
0:32:51 > 0:32:53because the Government's heading
0:32:53 > 0:32:57for economic failure and probably political failure as well.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59So increase the deficit? You're a Keynesian?
0:32:59 > 0:33:05- This is basic economics, really. - Really?
0:33:05 > 0:33:07Why don't they do it if it's basic economics?
0:33:07 > 0:33:13Good question. They did it in Sweden recently. It worked.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16We have talked about whether the 10p will affect poorer people
0:33:16 > 0:33:18and Fraser mentioned people out of work. A question from
0:33:18 > 0:33:22David Hawkes which is relevant to this, please? David Hawkes.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25Should people on benefits be made to work somewhere like Poundland
0:33:25 > 0:33:27to justify receiving their money?
0:33:27 > 0:33:29This is the case of Cait Reilly, who complained
0:33:29 > 0:33:31that she had been forced to work at Poundland
0:33:31 > 0:33:37or told she would have to work there or she would lose her benefits
0:33:37 > 0:33:41and she took it to court and the court decided something rather odd
0:33:41 > 0:33:44which was, perfectly all right to tell people to go to Poundland,
0:33:44 > 0:33:46but that they hadn't got the procedure right,
0:33:46 > 0:33:49as far as I can understand it. George Galloway?
0:33:49 > 0:33:51I want to beatify Cait Reilly.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54I think she has done Britain a great service by
0:33:54 > 0:33:58taking this case and the court, by its decision, has done so too.
0:33:58 > 0:34:04This is a young woman who had a voluntary job, unpaid, in a museum
0:34:04 > 0:34:09who was forced by Iain Duncan Smith to take a job in Poundland.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12That's what we have become. Poundland.
0:34:12 > 0:34:16Where people are frog-marched into working in Poundland
0:34:16 > 0:34:19and told that they are actually doing a job.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22We are deporting people from Camden, from Newham
0:34:22 > 0:34:24to the north of the country.
0:34:25 > 0:34:28We are cutting public expenditure on a massive scale.
0:34:28 > 0:34:32We are introducing a bedroom tax,
0:34:32 > 0:34:35which I warn you now in case I don't get a chance later,
0:34:35 > 0:34:39this is David Cameron's poll tax, the bedroom tax.
0:34:39 > 0:34:40APPLAUSE
0:34:40 > 0:34:44This is Britain today. A land where you go into a cheap chicken shop
0:34:44 > 0:34:46and you get horse,
0:34:46 > 0:34:49where the only economy in many of our northern cities is Poundland
0:34:49 > 0:34:57and where the Tory answer is to force people into working
0:34:57 > 0:35:00in these dodgy places for pitiful wages rather than a real economy,
0:35:00 > 0:35:02the one that we need to build.
0:35:02 > 0:35:03APPLAUSE
0:35:03 > 0:35:10- Maria Miller.- I'm not sure I really accept the way
0:35:10 > 0:35:13that George is talking down the really important role
0:35:13 > 0:35:17that work experience can have in many people's lives.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20- Actually, the facts here... - In Poundland?
0:35:20 > 0:35:23OK, the facts, because we can't let facts get in the way
0:35:23 > 0:35:27of a good story, the facts are, the court said the Government was quite
0:35:27 > 0:35:30right to use things like work experience to give people
0:35:30 > 0:35:32the opportunity to get into jobs.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35These are people who are on Jobseeker's Allowance,
0:35:35 > 0:35:36they are not people who are unpaid
0:35:36 > 0:35:39and it gave them the sort of experience which might get them
0:35:39 > 0:35:43their next job. Surely we should be applauding organisations
0:35:43 > 0:35:46that do that and give young people in this country the opportunity
0:35:46 > 0:35:49to get the skills to get ahead. I just don't think it's right
0:35:49 > 0:35:52to be writing people off to a lifetime on benefits.
0:35:52 > 0:35:54Let's give them the opportunity to get ahead.
0:35:54 > 0:35:58She was working in a museum. You put her into Poundland, for God's sake.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00Let's be clear here.
0:36:00 > 0:36:03All the court said was that there was a technical issue
0:36:03 > 0:36:06around the Government policy but the main thrust of the policy
0:36:06 > 0:36:09was perfectly acceptable and I think that's something that's important.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11I think we should be again applauding those employers
0:36:11 > 0:36:12that go out of their way
0:36:12 > 0:36:15to give young people in this country a chance.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20- OK. You, sir?- Whilst it's important for young people
0:36:20 > 0:36:23to get experience, you have to make sure it's relevant
0:36:23 > 0:36:26to their skills and in getting them into a job. There is no point giving
0:36:26 > 0:36:29it to a person who's one, volunteering,
0:36:29 > 0:36:31two, educated at university
0:36:31 > 0:36:34to then force them to do cleaning jobs, menial jobs that
0:36:34 > 0:36:37don't actually help them get into work.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41You have to provide meaningful placements that will support them
0:36:41 > 0:36:44in developing skills and getting into real job prospects,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47not just simply using it as a form of punishment
0:36:47 > 0:36:51because you are on benefits. It has to be driven by providing skills
0:36:51 > 0:36:54to help people into jobs.
0:36:54 > 0:36:56Susan Kramer....
0:36:56 > 0:36:57APPLAUSE
0:37:01 > 0:37:04Is she suffering a form of punishment, in your view?
0:37:04 > 0:37:07I'm a huge fan of work experience. If I had been unemployed
0:37:07 > 0:37:11for over a year and my volunteer job wasn't doing me any good in terms
0:37:11 > 0:37:15of getting an employer to take me seriously and somebody offered me
0:37:15 > 0:37:24a few weeks or couple of months' work somewhere, I'm getting my benefits
0:37:24 > 0:37:27so in a sense I owe back I think for my benefits. I would take it.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30If one of my children were in that situation,
0:37:30 > 0:37:32I would tell them to take it,
0:37:32 > 0:37:36because when you are in a job, even if it's in that set-up,
0:37:36 > 0:37:39everyone knows it's far easier to then get another job.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42You go and apply and you can push. I think work experience,
0:37:42 > 0:37:49I don't regard jobs as particularly menial.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52There are all kinds of jobs in which you can learn
0:37:52 > 0:37:56a whole series of different experiences. It's terrific if you
0:37:56 > 0:37:59can find something that fills a real gap in your training.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03I think that would be fantastic. But I would go for work experience.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06Cait Reilly was a geology graduate
0:38:06 > 0:38:12who wanted to work in the museum sector. So surely she was...
0:38:12 > 0:38:17I don't want to talk about one particular individual
0:38:17 > 0:38:19but we can at least accept, can't we,
0:38:19 > 0:38:22that her CV wasn't selling her to employers?
0:38:22 > 0:38:27They weren't coming out offering her jobs, so she's either in a situation
0:38:27 > 0:38:31of saying "I will take nothing, I'll stay on benefits till I get a job
0:38:31 > 0:38:33"in the area I want," or you have to compromise
0:38:33 > 0:38:37and take jobs in other areas. That's what I would do personally.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40I will take any job rather than be unemployed
0:38:40 > 0:38:43and I'd give the same message to my children.
0:38:43 > 0:38:47From there you build up and find the job in your field.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50I don't have a problem with work experience.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53- I think we ought to really respect that.- Thank you.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55The man in spectacles.
0:38:58 > 0:39:03I think the problem is, and why the girl was probably so angry
0:39:03 > 0:39:05is that another big failing of the Lib Dems,
0:39:05 > 0:39:08the rise in tuition fees and things like that,
0:39:08 > 0:39:10increasingly people aren't going to put up with this sort of thing.
0:39:10 > 0:39:14She wouldn't be paying under the Lib Dem system,
0:39:14 > 0:39:15she wouldn't be paying fees up front
0:39:15 > 0:39:19and wouldn't be paying her loan back until she was earning £21,000
0:39:19 > 0:39:21and earning it back at a lower rate.
0:39:21 > 0:39:26Why did you pledge the opposite then before the last election?
0:39:26 > 0:39:31Why did you sign in blood that you would scrap tuition fees?
0:39:31 > 0:39:33We were wrong.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35APPLAUSE
0:39:35 > 0:39:37I want to go to the back of the audience
0:39:37 > 0:39:40because there are many people up there with hands up
0:39:40 > 0:39:42who've not had a chance at the moment.
0:39:42 > 0:39:46There is a woman in the second row from the back. Yes. You, madam.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48Yep, you.
0:39:48 > 0:39:52I was just going to say, there are a lot of things wrong
0:39:52 > 0:39:55with the welfare state, but I'm glad it's there.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59I would rather have it here than it not be there.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02And I think that a lot of people who claim benefits
0:40:02 > 0:40:05have previously been in work and paid their stamp.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08- It's not like they're getting something for nothing.- OK.
0:40:08 > 0:40:14And the man six along. You with the spectacles on, sir. Yes.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18I understand that Miss Reilly is now working in a supermarket,
0:40:18 > 0:40:20so it looks like perhaps that scheme
0:40:20 > 0:40:22was particularly effective in her case.
0:40:22 > 0:40:23LAUGHTER
0:40:23 > 0:40:25Mary Creagh.
0:40:25 > 0:40:29Well, I think it comes back to the issue of competence, doesn't it?
0:40:29 > 0:40:30Because what we had, as you say,
0:40:30 > 0:40:33is a judgement that says there's nothing wrong with work experience,
0:40:33 > 0:40:37but the way the government laid the regulations, made the regulations,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40means it was not legal.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43And the failure to explain to the young lady
0:40:43 > 0:40:46her right to refuse work, etc, means that the government
0:40:46 > 0:40:52laid itself wide open and had this very embarrassing court defeat.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55I started my working life in British Home Stores
0:40:55 > 0:40:57and I did tights and I did lights
0:40:57 > 0:40:59for two years as a Saturday girl.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02And I don't think... It was a paid job,
0:41:02 > 0:41:05and I learned an awful lot about customer service
0:41:05 > 0:41:07and about cleaning and all sorts of things.
0:41:07 > 0:41:08So I'm not against work experience,
0:41:08 > 0:41:12but what we can't have is a work experience programme
0:41:12 > 0:41:15that isn't just for a few months, this can go on for two years,
0:41:15 > 0:41:16and people only go on it
0:41:16 > 0:41:18when they've been unemployed for nine months.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21You cannot have people coming out after two years of work experience
0:41:21 > 0:41:24and nine months on the dole with nothing to show for it.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26There's got to be training alongside it
0:41:26 > 0:41:28and there's got to be some sort of training pathway
0:41:28 > 0:41:31and hope that there's going to be something better.
0:41:31 > 0:41:33We cannot just park people on work experience programmes
0:41:33 > 0:41:35and say, "Oh, something will turn up."
0:41:35 > 0:41:38- APPLAUSE - Fraser Nelson.
0:41:38 > 0:41:40I think there is no doubt that
0:41:40 > 0:41:42the government messed up this case. The court has said that.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45But it's important to draw a distinction. The easier thing to do
0:41:45 > 0:41:48would be to write the welfare cheque and walk away.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51I think one of the great failures of the last Labour government
0:41:51 > 0:41:52is that that's what it did.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56It took the easy route, to write the welfare cheque, walk away,
0:41:56 > 0:41:59and basically condemn millions of people to poverty.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02Now, a welfare state, you're right, it's worth something.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04It needs to be protected, it needs to work.
0:42:04 > 0:42:08But right now, it's creating the most expensive poverty in the world.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10That's what we're doing here.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13Actually condemning people to live in these jobless, workless ghettos,
0:42:13 > 0:42:16who will never be able to get back into the habit of work.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19And when the government tries to do better, it will get it wrong,
0:42:19 > 0:42:21as it did in this case, but I think, thank God it's trying.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24Because the alternative, leaving these people,
0:42:24 > 0:42:26is something that we just can't afford to do any more.
0:42:26 > 0:42:28APPLAUSE
0:42:28 > 0:42:30And I'll take one more point, from the person
0:42:30 > 0:42:33with the tinted spectacles in the third row from the back.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36I think part of our problem is in education,
0:42:36 > 0:42:41that we're not educating the people that society actually needs.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44There are a hell of a lot of people today who go to "yooni",
0:42:44 > 0:42:46as they call it, and get a degree,
0:42:46 > 0:42:48and then find they can't get a job
0:42:48 > 0:42:51that's suited to the intellectual level.
0:42:51 > 0:42:55And I don't think we're training enough creative and practical people
0:42:55 > 0:42:57for the creative, practical jobs -
0:42:57 > 0:43:01plumbers, gas fitters, people like that. That is part of the problem.
0:43:01 > 0:43:04You're absolutely right. We need to do much more on vocational,
0:43:04 > 0:43:06technical education in this country.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08For too long there has been a focus
0:43:08 > 0:43:11- on the aspiration of 50% to university.- Yes.- And not enough
0:43:11 > 0:43:13for young people who have these creative talents.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16We've got apprenticeships, which you guys did not work at.
0:43:16 > 0:43:18We've also got a work programme...
0:43:18 > 0:43:20We now have one million people on apprenticeships.
0:43:20 > 0:43:22We have a work programme now where you're more likely
0:43:22 > 0:43:25to get a job if you're not on it than if you are on it, Fraser.
0:43:25 > 0:43:28- That is not a welfare system. - All right.
0:43:28 > 0:43:32We've got a good heated-up audience here on politics,
0:43:32 > 0:43:34and we've got four politicians
0:43:34 > 0:43:36on the panel and a political commentator.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40So I want to go to the next question and widen this out a bit,
0:43:40 > 0:43:44and ask you as politicians not just to list your policies,
0:43:44 > 0:43:47but to listen carefully to what the question says. Elliott Hill, please.
0:43:47 > 0:43:49Elliott Hill.
0:43:49 > 0:43:53With public scepticism towards MPs, similarities between major parties
0:43:53 > 0:43:57and a decrease in party membership, is party politics dying?
0:43:57 > 0:44:01Is party politics dying? You start, Fraser Nelson.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04I think people talk a lot about apathy in Britain,
0:44:04 > 0:44:07about how people can't be bothered to vote any more,
0:44:07 > 0:44:09but if you look at the amount of engagement in Britain,
0:44:09 > 0:44:12we're actually an incredibly passionate country
0:44:12 > 0:44:15when it comes to people going on marches, they attend protests,
0:44:15 > 0:44:18you get groups like 38 Degrees who did brilliant protests.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20The Taxpayers' Alliance and fuel tax.
0:44:20 > 0:44:22People get passionate,
0:44:22 > 0:44:25but they're not very excited at the menu that they get on polling day.
0:44:25 > 0:44:27A lot of people can't bring themselves to choose
0:44:27 > 0:44:30one of these parties who'll probably break their promise anyway
0:44:30 > 0:44:32if they go into coalition with somebody else.
0:44:32 > 0:44:35I don't think our politics in Britain is broken,
0:44:35 > 0:44:38but I do think our party political system is broken.
0:44:38 > 0:44:41These guys try to copy each other too much.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43They don't follow through on what they say they will do.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45And I really do think that we need
0:44:45 > 0:44:48renewal of politics in this country,
0:44:48 > 0:44:51because the way things are going, really,
0:44:51 > 0:44:53the turnout is going to get lower and lower and lower,
0:44:53 > 0:44:55because people think "Well, what's the point?
0:44:55 > 0:44:58"No matter who you vote for the government still gets in."
0:44:58 > 0:45:00APPLAUSE
0:45:00 > 0:45:02Maria Miller.
0:45:02 > 0:45:06The accusation is that political parties, not just the Conservatives,
0:45:06 > 0:45:08your party, but all political parties, don't follow through
0:45:08 > 0:45:11with what they say and people have become cynical about it as a result.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13I simply don't agree with that.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17When I go into schools and colleges in my constituency
0:45:17 > 0:45:21and I hear the passion that young people have for issues
0:45:21 > 0:45:24like the environment, like climate change, like,
0:45:24 > 0:45:26I was talking recently to a group
0:45:26 > 0:45:28about the work of Amnesty International.
0:45:28 > 0:45:32I think there is an enormous passion amongst young people
0:45:32 > 0:45:33for political issues.
0:45:33 > 0:45:37I think the challenge for all of us at the moment is to make sure
0:45:37 > 0:45:40that we're communicating to that new generation,
0:45:40 > 0:45:43make sure that we're showing them the very different approaches
0:45:43 > 0:45:45that each of the parties take to these issues.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47And I do think there's a difference.
0:45:47 > 0:45:51The real challenge at the moment is something new for our country -
0:45:51 > 0:45:55well, for the modern day - which is coalition government.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59And making sure that individuals know that, voters know that,
0:45:59 > 0:46:03whilst you can work with a party on issues,
0:46:03 > 0:46:07there are still considerable differences between your parties
0:46:07 > 0:46:08on many of those issues
0:46:08 > 0:46:11that you may want to vote on at the general election.
0:46:11 > 0:46:14I think that's an interesting challenge.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17But you think people are not sceptical towards MPs, as Elliott Hill suggests?
0:46:17 > 0:46:20I think of course there'll always be scepticism about people in power,
0:46:20 > 0:46:22but I think in terms of politics,
0:46:22 > 0:46:26the important role that politics has in the lives of all of us,
0:46:26 > 0:46:29and particularly young people, I don't see that.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31Too many similarities, Susan Kramer, between the major parties.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33You got involved in coalition,
0:46:33 > 0:46:36you may be in another coalition, I suppose, after the next election.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40Well, we think coalition has a lot to offer.
0:46:40 > 0:46:42- Because, when I talk to people... - LAUGHTER
0:46:42 > 0:46:45When I talk to people and they see this sort of, if you like,
0:46:45 > 0:46:49the time when party politics is the sort of clash,
0:46:49 > 0:46:51at Prime Minister's Questions for example,
0:46:51 > 0:46:54they regard that as sort of entertainment.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57But actually they want people to work together.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59And I do think this sort of pressure, particularly when we're in
0:46:59 > 0:47:04a time of financial austerity, with such economic difficulties,
0:47:04 > 0:47:06the notion of people having to work together,
0:47:06 > 0:47:11that there aren't instant answers, that it's the art of the possible,
0:47:11 > 0:47:12that you have to move things,
0:47:12 > 0:47:15particularly when you're trying to remedy
0:47:15 > 0:47:17the damage that's been done to an economy
0:47:17 > 0:47:19essentially over a 20-year period,
0:47:19 > 0:47:22you're trying to change all those fundamentals,
0:47:22 > 0:47:25get people to have skills, get businesses started,
0:47:25 > 0:47:29get the banks functional again after all that they've done to themselves.
0:47:29 > 0:47:32Hang on, you're going to policies now.
0:47:32 > 0:47:35Is party politics dying?
0:47:35 > 0:47:38Is the politics, the commitment to MPs, was the question.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Well, I think we are in a period where cooperation
0:47:41 > 0:47:46and consensus have a lot more to offer if people look at it that way.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48As for MPs, I think it's true.
0:47:48 > 0:47:52With the scandals that we had in the past, MPs lost trust,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55and I think you can say, rightly so.
0:47:55 > 0:47:58And I recognise I'm part of the political group that has,
0:47:58 > 0:48:02collectively, if not individually, lost that trust.
0:48:02 > 0:48:03And we have to earn it again.
0:48:03 > 0:48:06But I do think that consensus has a lot to offer.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08Let's hear from our audience. The person in purple there,
0:48:08 > 0:48:10then I'll go back up there. You.
0:48:10 > 0:48:15I was just wondering, if you say that you're all fighting for the people,
0:48:15 > 0:48:19when do you listen to the people that you are there for?
0:48:19 > 0:48:20APPLAUSE
0:48:20 > 0:48:23You think that doesn't...?
0:48:23 > 0:48:27You don't listen to the people. You've got to listen to the people.
0:48:27 > 0:48:33- What THEY want.- Are you talking about any particular party, or all MPs?
0:48:33 > 0:48:37- All MPs.- George Galloway. Does George Galloway listen?
0:48:37 > 0:48:39Does George listen to you?
0:48:39 > 0:48:41I think the only people
0:48:41 > 0:48:44that's a party for the people is Labour.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47Because they actually listen to the people.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50George Galloway, what do you make of the main question?
0:48:50 > 0:48:53Well, I agree with Fraser Nelson, and that doesn't happen often!
0:48:53 > 0:48:55Actually, people in this country
0:48:55 > 0:48:59are fantastically interested in politics.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02I have hundreds of thousands of people following me on Twitter
0:49:02 > 0:49:06and Facebook, and not only are they absolutely engaged
0:49:06 > 0:49:09with all the vital political issues of the day,
0:49:09 > 0:49:11they are extremely well-informed,
0:49:11 > 0:49:14often times better informed than I am
0:49:14 > 0:49:17about some of the issues that are in front of us this evening.
0:49:17 > 0:49:21The problem is in this country,
0:49:21 > 0:49:24the political parties,
0:49:24 > 0:49:26Tweedledee, Tweedledum, Tweedledee and a half -
0:49:26 > 0:49:29if a backside could have three cheeks, these would be
0:49:29 > 0:49:31the three cheeks. There is no difference.
0:49:31 > 0:49:32We've heard that one before.
0:49:32 > 0:49:37- It's a good one, though.- People say "stop me if you've heard it before,"
0:49:37 > 0:49:40- I have it, George.- Why don't you think of something memorable
0:49:40 > 0:49:42to say that people will remember?
0:49:42 > 0:49:45I will be slapping yours at the end of the show.
0:49:45 > 0:49:46CHEERING AND LAUGHTER
0:49:46 > 0:49:51The reality is, these three parties believe
0:49:51 > 0:49:56that politics has only an inch in which we can differ.
0:49:56 > 0:49:58That we differ about the colour of the walls
0:49:58 > 0:50:00that the we'll paint the departments in Whitehall.
0:50:00 > 0:50:04That it'll be a penny off this, a penny on that.
0:50:04 > 0:50:08In reality, people know that this country isn't working.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11That our institutions are in a state of collapse,
0:50:11 > 0:50:13and that a radical change is necessary.
0:50:13 > 0:50:17And if you put forward a radical change,
0:50:17 > 0:50:21people may or may not agree with the radical change you propose,
0:50:21 > 0:50:23but they are ready to listen to it.
0:50:23 > 0:50:26My last point is this, and I'm sorry, I don't want to get personal.
0:50:26 > 0:50:30But we have a parliament full of expenses frauds.
0:50:30 > 0:50:34We have a parliament that's almost always on holiday.
0:50:34 > 0:50:36Since I was elected 11 months ago,
0:50:36 > 0:50:40Parliament has been on holiday almost 50% of the time.
0:50:40 > 0:50:44And the rest of the time they're filling in their expenses forms.
0:50:44 > 0:50:48That's the face of British politics so far,
0:50:48 > 0:50:51including in the House of Lords.
0:50:51 > 0:50:53Unless I'm deaf, George, unless I'm deaf,
0:50:53 > 0:50:57when you arrive, they complain that you're never there now.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00- I'm there every day!- Where are you? We never see you.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02I am in Parliament every day.
0:51:02 > 0:51:05And my expenses are virtually the lowest in England.
0:51:05 > 0:51:08And people are following what I have to say
0:51:08 > 0:51:12because I'm different from these three cheeks of the same backside.
0:51:12 > 0:51:14If you were actually doing your job as an MP,
0:51:14 > 0:51:16when we're in recess, what we're supposed to be doing
0:51:16 > 0:51:19is actually in our constituencies working with our constituents.
0:51:19 > 0:51:20You're lying on beaches!
0:51:20 > 0:51:23All right, the woman behind you, four behind. Four rows behind.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26Isn't it our democratic system that's actually broken?
0:51:26 > 0:51:30I go to a polling booth and have to vote for the best of a bad bunch,
0:51:30 > 0:51:34because I don't want the Tories to get in.
0:51:34 > 0:51:38It's not who I want to vote for,
0:51:38 > 0:51:41but it's who's going to stop a different party getting in.
0:51:41 > 0:51:44If AV had gone in or we did have proportional representation,
0:51:44 > 0:51:51I would be able to vote for who I believed in
0:51:51 > 0:51:54- rather than who would stop the Tories from getting in.- We tried!
0:51:54 > 0:51:58- Mary Creagh.- Well, I don't think our society is broken.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01And I don't think politics is broken.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03And I think that George Galloway's rhetoric about
0:52:03 > 0:52:08how awful everything is is actually dangerous and deeply, deeply cynical.
0:52:08 > 0:52:10I'm ambitious for this country.
0:52:10 > 0:52:14I didn't come into politics to just make,
0:52:14 > 0:52:17to govern slightly better or make little changes.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20I came into politics because I wanted to change the world.
0:52:20 > 0:52:25I started as a local councillor, I carried on being elected to be an MP.
0:52:25 > 0:52:28I go out, every Friday when I'm at home in Wakefield
0:52:28 > 0:52:29I go out and listen to the people,
0:52:29 > 0:52:32and meet them picking up their children from the school gates.
0:52:32 > 0:52:35In the snow, in the hail, in the sun.
0:52:35 > 0:52:38I've got 30-odd schools and I go round every one of them.
0:52:38 > 0:52:42I listen to what people tell me. When they tell me stuff, I act.
0:52:42 > 0:52:44I take out the police with me sometimes.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47And I'm passionate about the role that politicians can play.
0:52:47 > 0:52:50If you go to countries where politics really is broken,
0:52:50 > 0:52:54I went to South Sudan last year, I went to Rwanda, I went to the Congo,
0:52:54 > 0:52:56I've been to places where terrible things
0:52:56 > 0:52:59have happened because of catastrophic political failure.
0:52:59 > 0:53:01I don't think people in this country really understand
0:53:01 > 0:53:04- just how lucky we are with our system.- All right.
0:53:04 > 0:53:06Can I go back to Elliott Hill, who asked the question?
0:53:06 > 0:53:09What do you think of what you've heard? What's your view?
0:53:09 > 0:53:12I think there's a big difference between passion over politics
0:53:12 > 0:53:15and passion for parties in politics.
0:53:15 > 0:53:17I know it's a lot...
0:53:17 > 0:53:20A few panel members sort of talking about Amnesty International,
0:53:20 > 0:53:22I think Maria Miller said,
0:53:22 > 0:53:25and people being really interested in these political issues,
0:53:25 > 0:53:27and that's definitely true.
0:53:27 > 0:53:32But whether they're so interested in parties is a different matter.
0:53:32 > 0:53:34I think they're on the way out if they don't do something.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37And the minute the public do realise that parties are expendable
0:53:37 > 0:53:41and politics can work very well without them,
0:53:41 > 0:53:44it might well change the entire political system.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47- To more independent MPs, you mean? - Perhaps, yeah.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50The man in the white suit. You, sir.
0:53:50 > 0:53:52The thing with talking about coalition
0:53:52 > 0:53:55and working together as being the solution
0:53:55 > 0:53:59to the political problems, I have to disagree with that.
0:53:59 > 0:54:00When the Liberal Democrats
0:54:00 > 0:54:05voted against boundary changes for constituencies very recently.
0:54:05 > 0:54:07Therefore the public see
0:54:07 > 0:54:10that politicians are playing their own game.
0:54:10 > 0:54:13"If it's in their favour, we'll vote against it."
0:54:13 > 0:54:15But that's playing against what the public need,
0:54:15 > 0:54:18which is a fair say in who gets elected.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21Fraser Nelson, do you agree with that, on this boundary change point?
0:54:21 > 0:54:25Yeah. This is the thing, politicians go on about constitutional reform,
0:54:25 > 0:54:29but only the type that benefits the own party. It's really depressing.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32You broke the deal, you can pretty much write the script.
0:54:32 > 0:54:35But I'd say to Elliott, if you think the situation is bad now,
0:54:35 > 0:54:38then wait until they get state funding for political parties.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40I mean, right now they're losing members,
0:54:40 > 0:54:44all the main political parties, and they've got to find financing.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47If they say, "Nobody wants to give us money, let's get the government
0:54:47 > 0:54:49"to give us a bailout," that's still on the cards,
0:54:49 > 0:54:52which is why it's so important it should never happen.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55They should be forced, all of them - Labour, Tory, Lib Dems -
0:54:55 > 0:54:58to go and find ideas that people think are worth supporting.
0:54:58 > 0:55:00Either do that or go bust.
0:55:00 > 0:55:04And the drop in membership is absolutely staggering.
0:55:04 > 0:55:06The Tories have halved under Cameron alone,
0:55:06 > 0:55:09- pretty much.- In the '50s, the Tories had three million members.
0:55:09 > 0:55:12- Labour had a million members. You, sir, on the left, here.- Yeah.
0:55:12 > 0:55:15Doesn't the panel think that the despondency shown
0:55:15 > 0:55:21by the general public at the moment towards political parties,
0:55:21 > 0:55:25is it not because before an election, they promise,
0:55:25 > 0:55:27all parties promise this, that and the other,
0:55:27 > 0:55:32so they vote them in, and then after they renege on what they promise?
0:55:32 > 0:55:36- Has it ever been different, in your view?- It was...- No.
0:55:36 > 0:55:37Every single...
0:55:37 > 0:55:42Every single election, they've always gone back on what they said.
0:55:42 > 0:55:44Parties used to be very different, but now
0:55:44 > 0:55:46the Tories are giving us just as much debt
0:55:46 > 0:55:48as Labour was planning to,
0:55:48 > 0:55:50- so you do wonder what all the fuss was about.- OK.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53We're a bit out of time, but because of where we are,
0:55:53 > 0:55:56I'm just going to take this question from Joseph Sharp,
0:55:56 > 0:55:59and it'll be a yes or no around the panel. Joseph Sharp, please.
0:55:59 > 0:56:00I'd just like to ask the panel,
0:56:00 > 0:56:03where should Richard III be buried - Leicester, Westminster or York?
0:56:03 > 0:56:07- Or indeed Gloucester, as some have said.- George, quickly.
0:56:07 > 0:56:11Has to be York. He built a mausoleum for himself there.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13BOOING AND LAUGHTER
0:56:13 > 0:56:16And a person's last wishes should be honoured!
0:56:16 > 0:56:19- He wanted it to be York, it must be York.- Maria Miller.
0:56:19 > 0:56:23We've made sure that Leicester University has got some say in this,
0:56:23 > 0:56:25and I think there's sort of a rule generally
0:56:25 > 0:56:27that when you exhume bodies from the ground,
0:56:27 > 0:56:30you try and rebury them somewhere close to where they were taken out.
0:56:30 > 0:56:33OK, Mary? That's one for Leicester.
0:56:33 > 0:56:36APPLAUSE AND CHEERING
0:56:36 > 0:56:38Westminster, where his wife is?
0:56:38 > 0:56:41Richard has been lying under Leicester council
0:56:41 > 0:56:44social services car park for the last 500 years,
0:56:44 > 0:56:47I think he deserves a decent burial in Leicester Cathedral.
0:56:47 > 0:56:51- APPLAUSE AND CHEERING - Susan?
0:56:51 > 0:56:53Finders keepers!
0:56:53 > 0:56:56APPLAUSE
0:56:56 > 0:56:59I thought you were saying "Findus" for a moment!
0:56:59 > 0:57:01LAUGHTER
0:57:01 > 0:57:03- Not that bad! - I think he should be buried
0:57:03 > 0:57:05with his wife, Anne Neville,
0:57:05 > 0:57:08who's buried in Westminster. I know I would certainly like to be.
0:57:08 > 0:57:11If he were alive, which obviously is not,
0:57:11 > 0:57:14he would probably want to be with her. Most people do.
0:57:14 > 0:57:17- Westminster Abbey?- Yeah.- OK. Fine.
0:57:17 > 0:57:18That's it. I'm sorry.
0:57:18 > 0:57:22It's perfectly obvious where everybody here wants him buried.
0:57:22 > 0:57:25Our hour is up. We'll be, oh, we're going to be in St Paul's Cathedral!
0:57:25 > 0:57:27We didn't mention St Paul's!
0:57:27 > 0:57:29St Paul's Cathedral, where Nelson is buried.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32SUSAN: Richard I is buried in three different places.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35- They kind of broke him up and scattered them.- Thank you.
0:57:35 > 0:57:36We've got to stop, Susan.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38LAUGHTER
0:57:38 > 0:57:40- I like dissections!- Thank you.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43And St Paul's Cathedral next week, and in fact it's the first time
0:57:43 > 0:57:46question Time has come from St Paul's.
0:57:46 > 0:57:48Our panellists are going to include Vince Cable,
0:57:48 > 0:57:50Michael Heseltine and Diane Abbott.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53And the week after that we're going to be at the site
0:57:53 > 0:57:55of the Hampshire by-election in Eastleigh.
0:57:55 > 0:57:59We'll be going live just after the polls close on that by-election
0:57:59 > 0:58:02triggered by Chris Huhne's plea of guilty, of course, in the courts.
0:58:02 > 0:58:05If you'd like to come either to St Paul's or to Eastleigh,
0:58:05 > 0:58:07you can apply by our website.
0:58:07 > 0:58:09The address is on the screen.
0:58:09 > 0:58:13Or you can call us, 0330 123 99 88.
0:58:13 > 0:58:16You'll be catechised by our administrators.
0:58:16 > 0:58:20It would be extremely nice to see you for those two occasions.
0:58:20 > 0:58:22My thanks to our panel here,
0:58:22 > 0:58:25and to all of you who came to take part in this programme.
0:58:25 > 0:58:27From Question Time here in Leicester,
0:58:27 > 0:58:29until next Thursday, good night.
0:58:29 > 0:58:31APPLAUSE
0:58:57 > 0:58:59Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd