:00:11. > :00:15.Tonight we were live in Eastleigh with the polls close in the by-
:00:15. > :00:23.election that set the two coalition parties set against each other and
:00:23. > :00:28.saw UKIP apparently coming up on the rails. Welcome to Question Time.
:00:28. > :00:32.Good evening to you at home. Good evening to our audience here.
:00:32. > :00:37.Welcome to our panel. On our panel the Liberal Democrat Home Office
:00:37. > :00:40.Minister brown brown Brown, lab's shadow leader of the Commons,
:00:40. > :00:46.Angela Eagle, the Conservative MP, adviser to David Cameron, Claire
:00:46. > :00:50.Perry, the former Tory MP, Neil Hamilton, who lost his seat over
:00:50. > :00:55.accusations he took cash for asking questions if in the House of
:00:55. > :01:00.Commons, a charge he denies. And he now sits on UKIP's National
:01:00. > :01:10.Executive. And the radical left- wing film maker, Ken Loach.
:01:10. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:22.APPLAUSE I should just say, obviously if we
:01:22. > :01:26.get any news from the by-election, we'll bring it to you, and Andrew
:01:26. > :01:31.Neil's programme follows Question Time and it will stay on air until
:01:31. > :01:33.the result is announced. Our first question, from Jon Senior, please.
:01:33. > :01:37.What lessons does the bruising election campaign in Eastleigh have
:01:37. > :01:42.for the parties at the general election in 2015?
:01:42. > :01:48.The election is over, so you can all speak your minds. I hope there
:01:49. > :01:54.are people here who voted in the election. What lesson does this
:01:54. > :02:01.election hold for the parties in the general election. Do you think
:02:01. > :02:10.your party has beaten the stpwirs third place? I think Eastleigh --
:02:10. > :02:17.Has beaten the Torys into third place? I think Eastleigh, there is
:02:17. > :02:22.everything to play for for UKIP. Get used to UKIP, because we'll be
:02:22. > :02:26.providing the real choice in 2015. Labour, Liberals and the
:02:26. > :02:32.Conservatives are all led by euro fanatic leaders and are wholly
:02:32. > :02:38.committed to membership of the EU, which stops us from doing so much
:02:38. > :02:44.that we want to do - stopping open- door immigration and cutting taxes
:02:44. > :02:52.and so forth. So you don't think we'll have a referendum on Europe?
:02:52. > :02:57.The last time he reneged on the Lisbon Treaty. I'm personally sorry
:02:58. > :03:03.for the amount of rubbish I have put through your doors and
:03:03. > :03:09.contributed to your recycling. You must be happy that the caravan is
:03:10. > :03:16.moving on. Apologies from all of us. You bored the electorate did you?
:03:16. > :03:24.We welled the electorate. There are leaflets yesterdayisation, I've
:03:24. > :03:29.made my mind up, just go away. That was good. Immigration, which is
:03:29. > :03:34.down 30% year on year, but people are busy, they have busy lives.
:03:34. > :03:37.They are not all tuning in to watch political programmes. We need to be
:03:37. > :03:41.talking about the things that matter to people, the cost of
:03:41. > :03:45.living and local issues. The lesson we should take away if we are
:03:45. > :03:52.trying to talk about the big, important stuff like fixing Britain,
:03:52. > :03:59.we have to keep making it relevant. No-one here tonight is going to go
:03:59. > :04:04.home and say, hooray, the deficit is down. You are going to think
:04:04. > :04:09.about filling your car. We should get into our constituencies and be
:04:09. > :04:17.normal. Are you saying fuel duty is coming down? We've frozen it every
:04:17. > :04:23.time... Sit coming down? Well, we've spent �5 billion helping
:04:23. > :04:30.motorists, I would love it to come down. You think you have come third
:04:30. > :04:34.to UKIP? I would love to see some fantastic, more fantastic women in
:04:34. > :04:41.Parliament, across all parties. If we don't get Maria in we are
:04:41. > :04:45.missing a chance to get in a really great candidate. If she hasn't won?
:04:45. > :04:55.If she hasn't won. Do you think the Liberal Democrats have won, Jeremy
:04:55. > :04:59.Browne? I don't know. Do you think? I hope we have. That's obvious too.
:04:59. > :05:02.As everybody here will testify, the parties have fought themselves to a
:05:02. > :05:05.bit of a standstill. I think the big message, you look at the
:05:05. > :05:08.opinion polls, you look at the difficulties the parties in
:05:08. > :05:13.Government have trying to get our country back on its feet in
:05:13. > :05:18.extremely difficult times. You look at the circumstances, let's be
:05:18. > :05:22.blunt about it, under Which? By- election was called. I don't think
:05:22. > :05:25.anybody would think the Liberal Democrats have had a good week in
:05:25. > :05:32.terms of national media coverage. Against that backdrop the big story
:05:32. > :05:36.for me is not that the Liberal Democrats are crumbling away but
:05:37. > :05:40.the resilience. We had the best candidate, I think that was
:05:40. > :05:45.accepted by people who didn't even vote for him. We are here year on
:05:45. > :05:48.year and day in and day out, not just flying the flag at election
:05:48. > :05:51.time. I think people have appreciated that level of service
:05:51. > :05:58.and the care we've shown to the people of that community. I hope
:05:58. > :06:02.that is a winning combination and we'll show people tonight that the
:06:02. > :06:06.Liberal Democrats are alive and kicking. I have one comment on the
:06:06. > :06:11.literature that came round to. My mind it was lots of pretty pictures
:06:11. > :06:16.mainly of candidates and sometimes of green fields. It said very
:06:16. > :06:25.little. There was lots of paper with not a lot of information on it.
:06:25. > :06:30.But vote today? Yes I did. Were you torn between the 14 parties?
:06:30. > :06:33.didn't vote for any of the minor contenders. Although some of them
:06:33. > :06:37.had very interesting points they clearly weren't going to get in and
:06:37. > :06:44.it would've been a wasted vote. Personally I regret that Chris
:06:44. > :06:49.Huhne is not still standing. I think he was a politician of great
:06:49. > :06:56.significance, with what I felt was a very strong view which I agreed
:06:56. > :07:02.with on climate change and energy policy. I think we've lost a
:07:03. > :07:09.considerable personality there. APPLAUSE Angela Eagle? Well, I
:07:09. > :07:17.don't think anyone could say that this is our biggest ever prospect
:07:17. > :07:21.in the country. I think we would have a majority of 362 if we had
:07:21. > :07:24.taken Eastleigh, but what we've done is fought a vigorous campaign,
:07:24. > :07:28.gone around and talked to a lot of people about the things that matter
:07:28. > :07:33.to them. There is no doubt that immigration's been a big issue in
:07:33. > :07:39.the campaign here. We've had discussions about what we can do to
:07:39. > :07:43.deal with that, to bring it down, to ensure that no foreign worker
:07:43. > :07:50.should take a job at less than minimum wage and be exploitsed and
:07:50. > :07:55.forced down people's wages, that we can deal with exploitative agencies
:07:55. > :08:02.who only employ foreign people and bring them in. What lessons does
:08:02. > :08:07.this campaign... To get out on the doorstep, to talk, listen and react.
:08:07. > :08:11.Clare wants Maria to win but I think that it is a lot more
:08:11. > :08:16.important than that for the Conservative Party. This is they
:08:16. > :08:23.are 16th target Lib Dem seat. They need to win this seat, so they can
:08:23. > :08:29.win the next election. I think it's 258 on our list, so if the
:08:29. > :08:33.Conservatives tonight fail to take the seat and the circumstances that
:08:33. > :08:40.Jeremy's alluded to, the difficult times they've been having, that
:08:40. > :08:45.would be a worrying result for them. I also think... Hold on a second
:08:45. > :08:50.Angela. If the Conservatives come third they've got a right to be
:08:51. > :08:55.very worried. This is only informal but the latest tweeting from a
:08:55. > :09:05.Liberal Democrat councillor is the Liberal Democrats have held the
:09:05. > :09:09.
:09:09. > :09:18.seat and UKIP is second. Last time the Conservatives won an an overall
:09:18. > :09:25.majority, last time they came second and now they are fourth.
:09:25. > :09:35.do think it is much more serious than this. The Westminster tittle-
:09:35. > :09:35.
:09:35. > :09:41.tattle we are listening to is what puts people off politics. APPLAUSE
:09:41. > :09:46.I think there's a lot of people in this country who share a lot of
:09:46. > :09:51.thoughts. They hate the break-up of the NHS. They hate the
:09:51. > :09:55.privatisations and the outsources and the labour agencies and the low
:09:55. > :09:59.wages. They hate the mass unemployment. They hate the casual
:09:59. > :10:03.destruction of the environment that we see, and the gentleman referred
:10:03. > :10:09.to. And there isn't a broad movement, a broad party that they
:10:09. > :10:15.can vote for. People spend a lot of time saying, who are we going to
:10:15. > :10:19.hold our nose and vote for? We need a broad movement on the left the
:10:19. > :10:25.one thing I have in common with Neil is UKIP have done it for the
:10:25. > :10:31.right. I disagree with everything that UKIP stands for... APPLAUSE
:10:31. > :10:35.But, we need a broad movement of the left. It is now time it came
:10:35. > :10:40.together. How would you get that? Every time the party moves to the
:10:40. > :10:44.left, historically it seems to have lost votes. Well, I think there are
:10:44. > :10:48.a number of things that should happen. The unions should stop
:10:49. > :10:52.paying money to a party that's going to kick it in the teeth. The
:10:52. > :10:56.Labour Party is a market economy party. It won't look after the
:10:56. > :10:59.interests of working people, so I think the Labour Party should cut
:10:59. > :11:04.off that tap and we should start again like they started over a
:11:04. > :11:11.century again and form a new Labour Party. There'll be a problem,
:11:11. > :11:15.because there was an a protecting the NHS candidate here, who I'm
:11:15. > :11:22.sure said good things, and a good trade union canned day. But they
:11:22. > :11:25.get no presentation. Every time I turned on the BBC or ITV to see the
:11:25. > :11:31.election discussed, you never saw that point of view. There's got to
:11:31. > :11:40.be a determination that the left has its voice, because it is
:11:40. > :11:46.has its voice, because it is excluded at the moment. APPLAUSE
:11:46. > :11:50.The gentleman alluded to the surprising number of independent
:11:50. > :11:55.and minority parties that stood in this election. We've heard there's
:11:55. > :12:03.a possibility that UKIP may have surprisingly come second - sorry
:12:03. > :12:09.Neil. I love you too! Is that a simpton of perhaps the electorate
:12:09. > :12:15.being sick of the big three parties? That so many people stand?
:12:15. > :12:21.Absolutely is. There a certain frustration. There is a huge degree
:12:21. > :12:25.of voter alienation in this country. I entirely agree with Ken. The vast
:12:25. > :12:29.majority of the people of this country have lost faith in our
:12:29. > :12:34.political system. When I was young, 85% of the country voted in the
:12:34. > :12:38.general election. Last time it was down to 60%. The lifeblood of
:12:38. > :12:42.political parties has been sucked out. They no longer represent real
:12:42. > :12:48.people. Ken was right this, Westminster tittle-tattle, they are
:12:48. > :12:52.all Westminster politicians, not all, Clare wasn't, but there is so
:12:52. > :13:00.much careerism in politics today, you don't have the trade unions in
:13:00. > :13:04.Parliament. Yes you do. Not so much as in the 1960s. The big lesson of
:13:04. > :13:09.what lesson are we going to learn is that politicians have got to be
:13:09. > :13:14.real again and not be in this bubble in Westminster wholly remote
:13:14. > :13:19.from real people. We get your point. Third is what we are told
:13:19. > :13:22.Conservatives are going to be. What will the effect of that be on the
:13:22. > :13:26.Tory Party and on the Prime Minister? The last time the
:13:26. > :13:36.governing party won a by-election was during the Falklands war, when
:13:36. > :13:49.
:13:49. > :13:53.10, you talk about mass unemployment, unemployment is
:13:53. > :13:56.coming down. Whereas the apology from Labour for the appalling
:13:56. > :14:00.things that happen under Labour's what? I accept that politics is
:14:00. > :14:04.broken. These people have been in Parliament a longer time than me.
:14:04. > :14:08.We need people to come in who are committed to transparency and want
:14:08. > :14:11.to fix Britain. If we look at what is happening between our two
:14:11. > :14:16.parties who came together in the national interest, things are
:14:16. > :14:21.improving. It is tough medicine. is not working. Growth is
:14:21. > :14:29.increasing and employment -- unemployment is coming down. Growth
:14:29. > :14:35.is not increasing. Wait, we will come to the economy in a moment.
:14:36. > :14:40.Let me hear from a couple more members of the public. The problem
:14:40. > :14:44.is that there is no alternative, is there? Pick Aberdyfi UKIP because
:14:44. > :14:48.it is different. Batman people have voted for UKIP because it is
:14:48. > :14:55.different. But Labour, Conservative and the Liberal Democrats are just
:14:55. > :15:00.different colours. There is no real choice.
:15:00. > :15:07.In a similar vein, getting to their election campaign, all the three
:15:07. > :15:11.main parties did sound very scripted. On the campaign trail,
:15:11. > :15:15.they all sounded similar. I would like to congratulate the Labour
:15:15. > :15:19.candidate. I did not vote for him, but at least he came across as
:15:19. > :15:28.fallible, funny, interesting and willing to talk about his own
:15:28. > :15:36.agenda. And a loser at! I will take one more point and then go to
:15:36. > :15:40.another question. Actually, the Labour Party candidate, I thought
:15:40. > :15:48.the quote in his book about Margaret Thatcher was the most vile
:15:48. > :15:53.thing I have ever heard. How anyone could put that is beyond me. Then
:15:53. > :15:56.we had the Conservative candidate, who gave us a potted history of
:15:56. > :16:02.Roman Eastleach, which made the Eastleigh residents laugh with
:16:02. > :16:07.gusto, because it was just a field. Who did you go for? Lib Dem. Well,
:16:07. > :16:17.I would have done. I am actually a Lib Dem councillor. A planted
:16:17. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:21.audience! If we get any more news from the by election fund, I will
:16:21. > :16:25.let you know. Let's have this question from Michael Fitzgerald.
:16:25. > :16:30.Following the loss of the triple A rating, isn't it time we stepped
:16:30. > :16:35.down the austerity and concentrate into on growing the economy? Let's
:16:35. > :16:40.stick to the Ohuruogu about whether the Government should change its
:16:40. > :16:41.policy with the loss of the trouble a rating. Was not trade too many
:16:41. > :16:47.statistics that are incomprehensible to anyone except
:16:47. > :16:55.the person who using them. Claire Perry? Well, nobody is celebrating
:16:55. > :16:59.that we have lost a measure of Britain's responsibility. But the
:16:59. > :17:03.question I constantly wrestle with and one of the reasons I came into
:17:03. > :17:08.politics is, we know we had a borrowing crisis. We can either
:17:08. > :17:14.borrow more, and I would love to hear Angela explain how borrowing
:17:14. > :17:17.more means you borrow less, all we can tackle this deficit so our
:17:17. > :17:22.children don't have to. Since the election, the global growth
:17:22. > :17:26.forecasts have been downgraded. We have had a head wind of slow growth
:17:26. > :17:29.across the world that has hit Britain's ability to grow. But the
:17:29. > :17:33.government is trying to stop spending money on things that don't
:17:33. > :17:38.deliver value and focus forensically on investment in
:17:38. > :17:41.infrastructure. We are seeing it here and in the south-west. We are
:17:41. > :17:45.spending half a billion quid in terms of new rail links to the
:17:45. > :17:50.south-west. We are spending an enormous rail in -- an enormous
:17:50. > :17:55.amount on CrossRail and high-speed rail. And we have created a million
:17:55. > :18:00.jobs in the private sector since the election. It is slow and
:18:00. > :18:04.difficult, but it is working. did you lose your trouble a rating
:18:04. > :18:08.if it is working? If you read the small print, it says that if we did
:18:08. > :18:13.not have this commitment to sorting out Britain's problems, the rating
:18:13. > :18:18.would go down even further. If you want to join in this debate, get in
:18:18. > :18:26.touch. We have a put a panellist tonight, the blogger Mark Wallace.
:18:26. > :18:30.His day job is head off the Media Institute of Directors. You can
:18:30. > :18:40.text commenced to us. Press the red button to see what others are
:18:40. > :18:40.
:18:40. > :18:44.saying. Claire Perry says we are losing a measure of our credit
:18:44. > :18:54.rating. But it is a measure that her party said it was important.
:18:54. > :18:59.Surely this is a complete failure of the government's policy?
:18:59. > :19:03.other side of the coalition, take up the cudgel? Like every Western
:19:03. > :19:10.economy, we have a huge fight on our hands. The question is, are we
:19:10. > :19:14.up for that fight as a country, or are we running away from it? Do we
:19:14. > :19:18.lose our nerve? I think we have to be up for that fight, because all
:19:18. > :19:21.of these countries across the western world have a pretty dire
:19:21. > :19:25.economic outlook. Unless governments show the resolve to get
:19:25. > :19:29.to grips with that and balance the books, the situation will get worse
:19:29. > :19:34.rather than better. When this coalition government was formed in
:19:34. > :19:40.2010, almost three years ago, for every �3 the Government was raising
:19:40. > :19:44.in tax, it was spending �4. That is completely unsustainable. Whether
:19:44. > :19:48.it is your household, your business or your country, you can't live
:19:48. > :19:53.beyond your means indefinitely, so we are having to turn that round,
:19:53. > :19:57.and we are making progress. The deficit is down by a quarter. About
:19:57. > :20:02.a million jobs have been created in the private sector. We have low
:20:02. > :20:07.interest rates. But will this be achieved overnight? No., and nor is
:20:07. > :20:11.it being over -- achieved overnight in other countries across Europe.
:20:11. > :20:14.There is a general election in Italy this week. I don't think they
:20:14. > :20:19.will be able to form a coherent coalition government that can get
:20:19. > :20:24.to grips with their problems. We have in this country. But for all
:20:24. > :20:27.the rhetoric, it was George Osborne who made this the first of his
:20:27. > :20:37.eight conditions for the economy. It was he who said the triple-A
:20:37. > :20:42.
:20:42. > :20:46.rating was what he would be judged by. The two major economies that
:20:46. > :20:54.have the top rating are Germany and Canada, and there are other two
:20:54. > :20:57.countries that have got to grips with their deficit. Angela Eagle?
:20:57. > :21:02.We now have two governments boat people talking about this, but the
:21:02. > :21:06.loss of the trouble -- the triple-A rating is a total humiliation for
:21:06. > :21:10.the Chancellor. He has failed the test he set himself as the number
:21:10. > :21:14.one priority in the Tory manifesto, and that is because his economic
:21:14. > :21:18.policy is failing. He has flatlined the economy, there is no growth
:21:18. > :21:28.because he sucked the life out of the economy. What would you do?
:21:28. > :21:30.
:21:30. > :21:36.Borrow more? Stop interrupting me. The issue here is that the
:21:36. > :21:42.government's policy is failing. Claire, you say there have been a
:21:42. > :21:48.million jobs new created, but you have sacked 520,000 people from the
:21:48. > :21:53.public sector. You have reclassified 200,000 people from
:21:53. > :21:58.the education sector into the private sector. So one-in-five of
:21:58. > :22:03.the half million extra jobs there are are actually fiddled. But there
:22:03. > :22:06.are more jobs. And there are over a million people who want more powers
:22:06. > :22:13.and are under-employed. They are suffering from squeezed living
:22:13. > :22:21.standards. What would you do? have no policy. Claire, let me
:22:21. > :22:25.check this. -- let me chair this. You may get on very well with the
:22:25. > :22:30.Speaker, he will get on less well with me if he did accept my
:22:30. > :22:38.chairmanship. You can't talk over of the body. She is doing a pretty
:22:38. > :22:45.good job so far. We have to have a fiscal stimulus. We need to try to
:22:45. > :22:52.get people back to work. We have to cancel the tax cut for millionaires
:22:52. > :23:01.that is coming in in April. And we have to introduce a 10 pence tax
:23:01. > :23:05.rate. Do you borrow more, or not? There is good borrowing and bad
:23:05. > :23:09.borrowing. If you borrow to invest in infrastructure, to build houses,
:23:09. > :23:13.to put unemployed construction workers back to work, to create a
:23:13. > :23:17.place where homeless people can live, that is good borrowing. If
:23:17. > :23:22.you borrow �212 billion extra because your economic policies are
:23:22. > :23:26.failing and the economy has ground to a halt, that is bad borrowing.
:23:26. > :23:31.So your response would be to borrow more. You have to borrow more in
:23:31. > :23:34.the short term, to put people back to work, to create infrastructure.
:23:34. > :23:39.Claire Perry said they were investing in rail. All of that
:23:39. > :23:44.investment is in the next Parliament. High Speed 2 will not
:23:44. > :23:49.happen until the mid- 2020s, and not finish and which the North
:23:49. > :23:53.until 2035. That investment will not get us out of the difficulty we
:23:53. > :23:59.are in now. She alight introduce an air of reality into this
:23:59. > :24:04.discussion? The reason why the Government has lost its triple-A
:24:04. > :24:08.rating is because the ratings agency think they have not got to
:24:08. > :24:13.grips with the deficit. And they are right. You would think there
:24:13. > :24:16.would have been massive cuts from the way this discussion has gone.
:24:16. > :24:24.Actually, government spending has increased since the last general
:24:24. > :24:29.election. It was 670 billion in 2010. It is 730 billion this year.
:24:29. > :24:34.This year, the deficit will still be �130 billion. These are colossal
:24:34. > :24:38.sums of money. We can't go on burning money in this way. Hard
:24:38. > :24:45.decisions have to be taken. Angela Eagle's policy is preposterous, to
:24:45. > :24:48.borrow our way out of debt. That is not what I said. I said there is
:24:48. > :24:53.some good borrowing for investment. If we had a Labour government
:24:53. > :24:59.committed that, you would not have a double A rating, you would have a
:24:59. > :25:03.double Z rating from the ratings agency. And that would make it more
:25:03. > :25:07.expensive for everybody to borrow. It would be the kiss of death for
:25:07. > :25:11.the economy. Jeremy was right in pointing out that Canada and
:25:11. > :25:15.Germany have got the triple-A rating because they have got to
:25:15. > :25:24.grips with their financial problems. They have got surpluses. Let's hear
:25:24. > :25:30.from some members of our audience. The lady said we need to get more
:25:30. > :25:34.construction jobs in this country. But I am unemployed, and I look on
:25:34. > :25:43.the JobCentre website for jobs, and I would say almost half of the jobs
:25:43. > :25:50.are for construction and places. The most available jobs are for
:25:50. > :25:55.construction and nurses. So there are obviously places for people to
:25:55. > :25:58.work. If you are building the high- speed railways and things like that,
:25:58. > :26:05.you are not making jobs, you are just moving people off from some
:26:05. > :26:14.two others. But non-jobs suitable for you? No. I could not go and
:26:14. > :26:19.start bricklaying. Let me go back to Angela's point
:26:19. > :26:24.about good borrowing and by a boring. What was the past Labour
:26:24. > :26:28.government's boring, good or bad? Well, the issue here is that if you
:26:28. > :26:31.are going to borrow money to do things that helped the country in
:26:31. > :26:38.the future like build infrastructure projects at very low
:26:38. > :26:44.interest rates, capital expenditure, that is a good thing. So the Brown
:26:44. > :26:49.borrowing was good borrowing, was it? It re-equip the economy. We did
:26:49. > :26:55.not have a recession and a banking crisis in 38 countries because we
:26:55. > :27:02.spent too much on schools and hospitals. It is a massive failure.
:27:02. > :27:09.Osborne said there was a test. He failed. The structural deficit has
:27:09. > :27:13.also gone down the pan, but only through creative -- the deficit has
:27:13. > :27:18.gone down a bit, but only through creative accounting. They are
:27:18. > :27:23.failing on every front. But the economy lives in people, not just
:27:23. > :27:29.in statistics and people's speeches. It lives in people. We have an
:27:29. > :27:32.economy in a terrible state. There are 2.5 million people out of work.
:27:32. > :27:41.1 million of them are young people. What future are we given to them?
:27:42. > :27:50.And of course, there are all these cuts. The 1000 richest people since
:27:50. > :27:54.the crisis began, their wealth has increased by �155 billion. The
:27:54. > :27:59.range of inequality is massive. And meanwhile, the bottom 10%, the
:27:59. > :28:06.poorest families, through these cuts, their average income has been
:28:06. > :28:14.cut by 30%. This is 30% of nothing. People are living on air. So yes,
:28:14. > :28:19.we have to change. We need a whole new economic strategy that gives
:28:19. > :28:23.people a decent way of life. We are not doing it at the moment. And the
:28:23. > :28:27.free market will not do it. It cannot do it. You never hear
:28:27. > :28:32.politicians talking about full employment now. Never, because they
:28:32. > :28:42.know they can't provide it. And if we can't give our kids the prospect
:28:42. > :28:49.
:28:49. > :28:53.of a secure life with work, then Ken, I think it is an interesting
:28:53. > :28:58.concept, but what is it we want people to do? Do we want to grow
:28:58. > :29:04.our way out of this recession? By the way, the right thing to do,
:29:04. > :29:09.Angela, would be to put something aside when the times were good.
:29:09. > :29:14.you answer Ken Loach's point? your market economic system, will
:29:14. > :29:19.you ever see full employment again? Are we going keep training kids in
:29:19. > :29:25.the right things, getting manufacturing, you are talking down
:29:25. > :29:30.the British chi. We are exporting more British cars now. Do you want
:29:30. > :29:37.to employ nerve the state? We've tried that, under Labour in the
:29:37. > :29:43.state, we have to have private sector growth daging us out of the
:29:43. > :29:51.recession. -- dragging us out of the recession. If AAA is not bad at
:29:51. > :29:59.what point is the rating bad that the Government would worry about
:29:59. > :30:04.that, an A or a B? I take that question was rhetorical. You don't
:30:04. > :30:11.seem the realise that the practical results of losing the AAA rating at
:30:11. > :30:16.the moment is that in the local area we are losing 800 jobs at Ford,
:30:16. > :30:21.which no politician fought for... APPLAUSE Not a single one of you
:30:21. > :30:28.fought for that, the unemployment ratings in the cities have gone up,
:30:28. > :30:35.so that unemployment rating sucks as well. APPLAUSE Straight away on
:30:35. > :30:39.the back of that credit rate dropping, we lost was it 26, 26 out
:30:39. > :30:44.of 28 housing associations had their credit rating dropped the
:30:44. > :30:51.other day, so they are not a good investment. There is not going be
:30:51. > :30:55.no more social housing built. the BBC had its credit rating
:30:55. > :31:00.dropped, the properties in London and Salford have had their credit
:31:00. > :31:06.rating reduced because they didn't know what's going to happen to the
:31:07. > :31:10.BBC. I want to go on to another question. This is from Anjelica
:31:10. > :31:20.Finnegan, please. Is the British political system a safe place for
:31:20. > :31:23.
:31:23. > :31:25.women to work? APPLAUSE
:31:25. > :31:30.The allegations against Lord Rennard, the former chief executive
:31:30. > :31:33.of the Liberal Democrats, that led to this allegation, that he
:31:33. > :31:37.absolutely denies. Jeremy, Brown, is the political system a safe
:31:37. > :31:41.place in the light of everything we've been hearing? The question is
:31:42. > :31:45.clearly aimed, as you just say David, at the revelation which have
:31:45. > :31:50.been extensively covered in the media this week. Let me put it like
:31:50. > :31:54.this. When I joined the Liberal Democrats I joined the Lib Dems,
:31:54. > :31:58.this makes me a career politician, when I was 18 years old. I joined
:31:58. > :32:03.the Lib Dems because I believed in the values of the party. I believed
:32:03. > :32:08.in liberalism. I believed that you could combine being responsible
:32:09. > :32:11.with the economy with having an enlightened, compassionate,
:32:11. > :32:16.generous-spirited society where people could be free but also
:32:16. > :32:19.realise their full potential. I want people who share those
:32:19. > :32:25.instinctive Liberal values, regardless of whether they are men
:32:25. > :32:33.or women, or their ethnicity, their age or whatever else it might be,
:32:33. > :32:39.to feel they can join the Lib Dems, be a Lib Dem councilor or stand for
:32:39. > :32:43.Parliament, and if there are people in this case, women, who feel they
:32:43. > :32:47.couldn't pursue their Liberal instincts within the Liberal
:32:47. > :32:52.Democrat party that is profoundly wrong and at source of great regret
:32:52. > :32:57.to me and the party as a whole. We are now going to have two inquiries.
:32:57. > :33:02.One into the specific allegations and one into our internal
:33:02. > :33:08.complaints procedures. In a way there is no more I can say about it
:33:08. > :33:11.at this stage. Those inquiries have to run their courses. Lord Rennard
:33:11. > :33:14.has denied the allegations that have been made. Obviously it is
:33:14. > :33:18.only reasonable that everybody concern should have a fair hearing
:33:19. > :33:24.as part of that process. We are very committed to making sure that
:33:24. > :33:29.people who share our Liberal values and instincts should have a home in
:33:29. > :33:34.the Liberal Democrats. Do you think Nick Clegg handled it well? He
:33:34. > :33:39.seemed to be all over the place, saying one thing and then another.
:33:39. > :33:44.For me the rolling media story about who said what to whom at what
:33:44. > :33:50.point isn't the central feature. To me, the central feature is that the
:33:50. > :33:54.women who make these allegations, understandably feel upset. They
:33:54. > :33:56.feel aggrieved. They are allegations that we take seriously.
:33:56. > :34:01.That's why Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats have set up these
:34:01. > :34:06.two inquiries. They will be full, thorough inquiries and we will get
:34:06. > :34:10.to the bottom of the truth. Obviously we want to make sure the
:34:10. > :34:14.Liberal Democrats is a party that is appealing to women as well as
:34:14. > :34:19.male members. I hope and believe that will also help the political
:34:19. > :34:23.culture right across the board. I'm not just saying this to deflect
:34:23. > :34:27.attention, but I don't think this is a situation that's unique to one
:34:27. > :34:32.particular party. I hope it leads the wider cultural change. I don't
:34:32. > :34:35.believe you are taking it seriously actually. I don't think the way
:34:35. > :34:42.obviously with Nick Clegg trying to avoid it was taking it seriously. I
:34:42. > :34:46.don't think this is just going to be a problem in the Lib Dems. I'm
:34:46. > :34:49.doing a PhD in politics and teach a lot of students parliamentary and
:34:49. > :34:54.constitutional politics in Britain. I don't know what to tell some of
:34:54. > :34:57.the girls in my class, because I don't think they are going to have
:34:57. > :35:02.the right opportunities to pursue a career this politics and I don't
:35:02. > :35:05.think I would encourage them either. Angela Eagle? I think it is
:35:05. > :35:09.unacceptable that women are put in this position and it shouldn't be
:35:09. > :35:13.tolerated in any political party in any workplace and in our society
:35:13. > :35:17.more generally. This is an issue that's often not talked about. It
:35:17. > :35:22.needs to come to the surface and be dealt with. Women who are victims
:35:22. > :35:27.of this need to be taken seriously and treated with respect. All too
:35:27. > :35:31.often in many workplaces and in many instances we know that women
:35:31. > :35:36.are basically pressurised into not saying anything, because they know
:35:36. > :35:39.the consequences for them will be worse than the consequences for the
:35:39. > :35:44.perpetrator. This is about the behaviour of men. In many ways men
:35:44. > :35:49.need to stop and think about that and see that's unacceptable. We
:35:49. > :35:53.need to develop different norms in our society. If this issue and the
:35:53. > :35:59.way that it has come out helps us do, that all the better, but there
:35:59. > :36:03.are too many places in our society that are male dominate, where the
:36:04. > :36:09.power structures are male dominated and where this unacceptable
:36:09. > :36:18.behaviour to women goes on and is tolerated. We need to put an end to
:36:18. > :36:23.it. APPLAUSE And do you include the Labour Party in those strictures?
:36:23. > :36:27.I've just said it happens everywhere. We've all got to ensure
:36:27. > :36:33.that we've got the right processes in place to put a stop to it. I
:36:33. > :36:37.think that it's far less tolerated in some places than others.
:36:37. > :36:41.Feminism, that word, we have made progress in some places more than
:36:41. > :36:48.others The Labour Party we have women-only short-lists. We've had
:36:48. > :36:52.some big instances about women's advancement and equality in the
:36:52. > :36:56.Labour Party. I think we are further along than many places. We
:36:56. > :37:02.are often derided for it though. Harriet Harman has been a doughty
:37:03. > :37:08.fighter for women's rights. In all her years in Parliament and she is
:37:09. > :37:12.derided as Harriet "Harperson". We were all called Blair's Babes,
:37:12. > :37:17.Cameron's Cuties. The way that politics is covered is not
:37:17. > :37:21.respectable. Women need to be treated with respect for their own
:37:21. > :37:25.political ideas. Until we change our culture it is very hard to get
:37:25. > :37:28.51% of people in this country who've a right to be many politics
:37:28. > :37:34.and change the culture of our politics, which is what we all need
:37:34. > :37:41.to do. If we can do that, we can change our country far faster and
:37:41. > :37:49.in a far more profound way than we have today, so let's get to it,
:37:49. > :37:54.women, and sort this out. APPLAUSE I would like to ask, how do you
:37:54. > :37:59.actually, how do you propose that you go about doing that? I believe
:37:59. > :38:03.a few years ago you tried that and you were hit by a legal pursuit I
:38:03. > :38:09.believe in trying... The women-only short-list. Yes. We changed the law
:38:09. > :38:12.and we are now legal. I think the fascinating thing, if this had been
:38:12. > :38:19.a female of any note there would have been lots of commentary about
:38:19. > :38:24.her meerns, her age. This chap is not a looker, -- about her
:38:24. > :38:30.appearance, her age, this chap is not a looker. I agree with ang lamb.
:38:30. > :38:34.I think this is an endemic problem in all institutions that don't have
:38:34. > :38:39.enough women in it. Ladies, I don't care what political party you are
:38:39. > :38:46.part of, just get involved. If our voices aren't there, nobody else is
:38:46. > :38:50.speaking up for us. That is the only way it changes. I think 50-50
:38:50. > :38:53.is the system I was selected under. I think that's fair. We don't have
:38:53. > :38:57.enough women coming through the political system of all ages, of
:38:57. > :39:01.all types. That's what we have to change. Back to your original
:39:01. > :39:06.question, yes it is safe to go into politics. I would rather be a
:39:06. > :39:11.female MP in Britain than in Italy or Afghanistan. But we can do a lot
:39:11. > :39:18.better than we are doing now, so please, ladies, get involved and
:39:18. > :39:23.get your voices heard. Men have to change too. The Liberal Democrats
:39:23. > :39:28.turned a blind eye to this didn't they? Nick Clegg's recollection is
:39:28. > :39:32.just the fact that he turned a blind eye to it, and did the senior
:39:32. > :39:37.Lib Dems. That will be true in the Savile case as well. There is
:39:37. > :39:41.something else, it is not just the treatment of women but people
:39:41. > :39:46.aren't owning up to it or seeing it in the workplace and doing
:39:46. > :39:51.something about it. Ken Loach? The only thing I would add to what
:39:51. > :39:59.Angela says, which I agree, with it is about power. It is a form of
:39:59. > :40:03.bullying. It is the abuse of power by people who are no in a superior
:40:03. > :40:08.position against people in an inferior position in the hierarchy.
:40:08. > :40:11.They fear for their jobs. They fear for their careers. They feel that -
:40:12. > :40:15.- they fear that something bad will happen to them in the organisation,
:40:15. > :40:22.and that's wrong. It's the abuse of power. I think there are cases
:40:22. > :40:28.where women have been involved. I don't think it is... Mainly men, I
:40:28. > :40:35.grant you. Whether the guy was good looking or not isn't the point. Was
:40:35. > :40:39.a cheap shot. APPLAUSE We've got to be much more serious than that. It
:40:39. > :40:44.is an absolute evil in big organisations and we've all seen it
:40:44. > :40:50.at different times. Angela is right. Everyone has to stand up and say
:40:50. > :40:57.this is not on. I agree, there has been a bit of a cover-up. We can't
:40:57. > :41:02.lump all sex scandals together. This is not ped fillia. It is not
:41:02. > :41:09.the Savile -- this is not paedophilia. It is not the Savile
:41:09. > :41:14.issue. Plainly they are not. Ken, do you think something's happened
:41:14. > :41:19.as a result of the Savile exposures, which is that has been followed by
:41:19. > :41:24.more and more allegations of various kinds of sexual harassment
:41:24. > :41:28.which we had never heard before. could well be that. The danger of
:41:28. > :41:32.that of course is that there is then a witch-hunt. That's also a
:41:32. > :41:42.danger, because people are innocent until they've been proved guilty.
:41:42. > :41:42.
:41:42. > :41:46.We must not forget that as well. APPLAUSE You Sir. I think the issue
:41:46. > :41:50.about a "zero tolerance" towards sexual discrimination isn't really
:41:50. > :41:55.contentious. It's a very important point, I don't want to dismiss it,
:41:55. > :42:01.but I don't want to use it as an excuse to ignore that feg lied. I
:42:01. > :42:06.think in this age when the trust between the trust and the
:42:06. > :42:09.politicians at an all-time low. Chris Huhne was a liar, despite
:42:09. > :42:14.what the gentleman said earlier. Nick Clegg lied and we shouldn't
:42:14. > :42:19.ignore that. What was his lie? said he didn't know anything about
:42:19. > :42:26.it and it has emerged that he does. That's unforgivable and people need
:42:26. > :42:32.to say, that's wrong. After his I'm sorry video, it doesn't really feel
:42:33. > :42:39.like he is. APPLAUSE Jeremy Browne, you can answer that specific point,
:42:39. > :42:44.that he lied. My understanding is not that. My understanding is that
:42:44. > :42:49.the differentiation that Nick Clegg made was between understanding
:42:49. > :42:52.broad rumours that were within an organisation or hearing those
:42:52. > :42:56.rumours and knowing about specific allegations that he could act on.
:42:56. > :43:04.There's a distinction between those two. But I've already said that any
:43:04. > :43:07.person who feels that they have Liberal values and wants to pursue
:43:07. > :43:10.that through the Liberal Democrats but doesn't feel able to for
:43:10. > :43:14.whatever reason, including this reason, that's wrong and that's why
:43:14. > :43:18.we are having these inquiries and we want to change that culture if
:43:18. > :43:24.it economists. I'm up front about that. We need to learn from what's
:43:24. > :43:31.happened. Neil Hamilton? I have a rather Newcastle sideline to this.
:43:31. > :43:40.I think I may be the only member on the panel who was arrested on
:43:40. > :43:47.suspicion of rape. True. It was a false allegation. One thing you can
:43:47. > :43:55.never say about the Hamilton household, it is not dull. The girl
:43:55. > :44:02.ended up serving a prison sentence for perjury and perverting the
:44:02. > :44:10.course of justice. I believe that the anti-dleevian attitudes which
:44:10. > :44:15.have been -- antediluvian attitudes which have been exposed. It raise
:44:15. > :44:20.as few eyebrows. And you get extraordinary responses to these
:44:20. > :44:24.allegation, such as the one reported in this evening's Evening
:44:24. > :44:28.Standard, a Liberal peer, said apparently if this sort of
:44:28. > :44:32.behaviour was really found to be a resignation matter about half the
:44:32. > :44:36.male members over 50 would not be seen. Well, that doesn't seem to be
:44:36. > :44:41.to be the appropriate response to what are very serious and
:44:41. > :44:51.distressing allegations. It is that kind of attitude which should be
:44:51. > :44:59.
:44:59. > :45:03.Exeter patiented in this country. Are there any women here who fear
:45:03. > :45:10.they have been harassed in the professions in this way? I have
:45:10. > :45:15.been harassed, and I worked as a social worker. It was a colleague
:45:15. > :45:20.who was inappropriate. As I was getting into my car, and I wound
:45:20. > :45:23.his head in the window. Then I reported it to my female line
:45:23. > :45:29.manager, and something was done about it. But it was sad to find
:45:29. > :45:32.out I was not his first victim. But what I would like to say to Jeremy
:45:32. > :45:39.is, I am surprised you have not been watching the news. If you had
:45:39. > :45:45.been, you would have seen this playing out. What Nick Clegg said
:45:45. > :45:53.was a lie. He said, I know nothing about it. But yes, he did. So I can
:45:53. > :46:02.only say to you, if I believe you, we would both be wrong. What I mean
:46:02. > :46:07.by that is, I am right, you are wrong. I watched it. Let me go back
:46:07. > :46:10.to the gentleman's point. I don't want us to focus on the political.
:46:10. > :46:15.The BBC got itself into a huge turmoil over the Jimmy Savile
:46:15. > :46:19.affair. There are victims here. We have to sort out the problem. We
:46:19. > :46:22.should not get galloping down a political who said what to think.
:46:22. > :46:27.The problem is that crimes have potentially been committed. There
:46:27. > :46:32.is a culture that is not healthy, and that is the issue to deal with,
:46:32. > :46:37.not the political nonsense that goes around it. Is it right for
:46:37. > :46:43.Brussels to cap bankers' bonuses? This is the attempt to announce
:46:43. > :46:47.today that they will try to cap bankers' bonuses, unless
:46:47. > :46:53.shareholders decide they can have twice their salary. Is it right for
:46:53. > :46:57.Brussels to do this? Neil Hamilton, you have strong views about Europe.
:46:57. > :47:01.Thus the reality of the European Union. If David Cameron thinks he
:47:01. > :47:05.can renegotiate all sorts of powers back from Europe, here is an issue
:47:06. > :47:10.which goes to the heart of the City of London's interests, which the
:47:10. > :47:16.Government has concentrated she strongly on defending and got
:47:16. > :47:20.nowhere in the negotiations. It will not achieve its purpose,
:47:20. > :47:25.because the trouble with the laws of this kind is that people will
:47:25. > :47:29.always find their way around them. We may be able to cap bankers'
:47:29. > :47:33.bonuses, but a likely consequence of this will be that they will push
:47:33. > :47:37.up their basic salaries, which will make life more difficult for the
:47:37. > :47:42.banks, because their fixed costs will increase significantly. And it
:47:42. > :47:47.will be difficult for them to get flexibility to iron out the impact
:47:47. > :47:54.of changes in the economic cycle. They like paying by bonuses,
:47:54. > :47:59.because that is a performance- related element of pay. Looking at
:47:59. > :48:03.it from the bank's point of view, if the choice is between increasing
:48:03. > :48:06.people's salaries by a colossal amount and only paying them when
:48:06. > :48:10.the banks make profits, it is sensible for the banks to choose
:48:10. > :48:15.the latter rather than the formal. You also have a peculiar situation
:48:15. > :48:19.where banking is a highly competitive global business. So it
:48:19. > :48:22.is very footloose and fancy-free. With internet trading, these things
:48:23. > :48:28.can be done from anywhere. You have global banks with people doing
:48:28. > :48:32.exactly the same job in Tokyo, New York, Singapore, London. And people
:48:32. > :48:36.in London uniquely are having their salaries capped, so where are these
:48:36. > :48:41.people going to go? Away from London, and that means we are all
:48:41. > :48:44.poorer. Paying these bonuses has seemed preposterous at times, but
:48:44. > :48:49.the Treasury has been the biggest beneficiary in the tax which is
:48:49. > :48:55.charged upon them. If we lose all that, we as individuals will be
:48:55. > :48:59.poorer. This is yet another example of politicians in Europe, none of
:48:59. > :49:05.whom have the slightest experience of what they are doing, who are
:49:05. > :49:09.legislating in a way which will cost the earth for us. Their only
:49:09. > :49:18.qualification is that they support the euro, the biggest financial
:49:18. > :49:24.calamity in the entire Continent. Calm down! Jeremy Browne, as a pro
:49:24. > :49:28.European, can you throw light on this? If this is under the Social
:49:28. > :49:33.Policy, article 151, there is a provision that nothing should apply
:49:33. > :49:39.to pay. In other words, is it permissible for Europe to say that
:49:39. > :49:43.they will control the pay of bankers? My understanding is that
:49:43. > :49:50.they say this is not pay, this is extra to pay, so it is within their
:49:50. > :49:56.remit. It is not pay? I am not here to answer on behalf of the European
:49:56. > :50:00.Commission. But money that I hand to you in return for your work, I
:50:00. > :50:05.wonder what that is? I agree. I am in the strange position of agreeing
:50:05. > :50:08.with a lot of what Neill said. It might look superficially attractive
:50:08. > :50:13.to a lot of people who are understandably angry about the
:50:13. > :50:17.behaviour of bankers and their seeming contempt for wider society.
:50:17. > :50:23.But I am not sure it will achieve the objectives that some people
:50:23. > :50:27.hope it will. At the moment, somebody who is paid �1 million for
:50:27. > :50:34.the �2 million bonus, does that mean their bonus will go down to �1
:50:34. > :50:39.million? No, it means they will get the overall same take-home pay they
:50:39. > :50:44.did before. There is an ideological distinction between nationalised
:50:44. > :50:48.banks and none-nationalised banks. Nationalised banks should behave
:50:48. > :50:52.much more like public servants and be much more respectful towards the
:50:52. > :50:56.taxpayers who pay their salaries. But I don't think the government,
:50:56. > :50:58.whether in Brussels or London, has the business of telling private
:50:59. > :51:04.companies that do not rely on the state how much they should pay
:51:04. > :51:09.their employees, as long as they pay them over the minimum wage. And
:51:09. > :51:12.a Euro centric point - within a generation, Europe will have 5% of
:51:12. > :51:18.the world population and 10% of the world economy. There is a big world
:51:18. > :51:21.out there in Shanghai, Hong Kong, Singapore, New York. London is one
:51:21. > :51:25.of the most important cities in the world. It is important that we
:51:25. > :51:29.understand that we are competing in a global environment. I don't want
:51:29. > :51:39.to drive away wealth creators who contribute to our economy. It is
:51:39. > :51:39.
:51:39. > :51:46.not just the richest, it is people on lower pay, to our detriment.
:51:46. > :51:54.it more that RBS, who have made a colossal loss of 500 bn because of
:51:54. > :51:58.its PPI misselling, pays �250 million for bonuses? That is a very
:51:58. > :52:06.good point, but it is a different point. I want to stick with the
:52:06. > :52:10.idea of capping bonuses. The man at the bank? Thank you, Neil, for your
:52:10. > :52:13.original point. If Chris Huhne had taken your advice on speeding
:52:14. > :52:18.points, we would not be having this by-election. The scary thing is,
:52:18. > :52:22.you mentioned Mr Cameron negotiating in Europe. The last
:52:22. > :52:28.time we negotiated there, we ended up paying more from the EU budget,
:52:28. > :52:34.while Germany paid less. I am pro- European. But if I work as a car
:52:34. > :52:37.dealer and I sell 10 cars and my colleague cells two cars, I expect
:52:37. > :52:40.to earn more than my colleagues. As long as it is performance related,
:52:40. > :52:45.I have no problem with it. In and it's surprising how the rich have
:52:45. > :52:55.to be tempted to work with salaries of millions, and the poor have to
:52:55. > :52:57.
:52:57. > :53:03.be driven to work for nothing, or else their benefits will be cut?
:53:03. > :53:07.Neil gave a very long explanation of why banking is an unsatisfactory
:53:07. > :53:12.way off organising the way we decide what we produce, how we are
:53:12. > :53:16.paid and how the world is run. This casino banking is actually just
:53:16. > :53:21.gambling by a very rich people, with your lives and my life. That
:53:21. > :53:29.is why we need a new system. The banks should be taken into public
:53:30. > :53:33.ownership. Then we direct what we should produce, and we do it in a
:53:33. > :53:41.fair way and protect the environment and live properly. RBS
:53:41. > :53:47.is mainly owned by the people. As the gentleman says, it is behaving
:53:48. > :53:55.very inappropriately, to use the current term for bad behaviour.
:53:55. > :53:59.They are paying vast sums to their employees. So is the EU doing right
:53:59. > :54:07.by try to cut the bonuses? You, the EU is absolutely doing right. The
:54:07. > :54:11.EU is wrong in many respects, but in this respect, support it. Angela
:54:11. > :54:14.Eagle, do you support this? First league, it should not have taken
:54:14. > :54:17.the EU to be doing this, we should have been sorting out the bonus
:54:17. > :54:22.culture with our banks more effectively than this Government
:54:22. > :54:27.have done so far. Do you approve of what Brussels are doing? It is an
:54:27. > :54:36.interesting idea. Do you approve of it? We have got to get a handle on
:54:36. > :54:40.this bloated bonus culture. When Neil Hamilton says it is all
:54:40. > :54:44.performance-related and we have got RBS making a �5 billion loss last
:54:44. > :54:54.year and paying themselves 600 million in bonuses, it is a funny
:54:54. > :55:00.
:55:00. > :55:03.definition of performance. Is it Labour policy to support this?
:55:03. > :55:10.want the government here to sort it out. They should have been doing
:55:10. > :55:15.this earlier. We have a very large financial sector in the City. What
:55:15. > :55:18.we do here will be far more effective than what the EU can do.
:55:18. > :55:23.We need to get international agreements to kill the bonus
:55:23. > :55:29.culture, and we need to deal with casino banking. It is not in this
:55:29. > :55:37.country's interest to have banks that are so bloated, gambling with
:55:37. > :55:42.money and our futures. We have to bring banking back to Kerrin about
:55:43. > :55:46.its customers. Let me bring you back to the question. The Prime
:55:46. > :55:50.Minister says he is worried about this proposal to cap bonuses
:55:50. > :56:00.because of its effect on the banking industry here. Are you
:56:00. > :56:00.
:56:00. > :56:05.worried by it? He has to ensure that he can do a deal in Europe
:56:05. > :56:11.that deals with the bloated banking culture and ensures that this
:56:11. > :56:17.country can be properly looked after. He has no allies in Europe.
:56:18. > :56:22.He was in a minority of one. He should be demonstrating that we can
:56:22. > :56:28.put a stop to the bonus culture here, and they have failed. Today
:56:28. > :56:33.we had Boris Johnson defending bonuses. I must stop you. Claire
:56:34. > :56:39.Perry? I sit here, and I am absolutely gobsmacked by some of
:56:39. > :56:42.the things you say. Bonuses tripled under your government. The British
:56:42. > :56:46.banking industry was one of the most lightly regulated industries
:56:46. > :56:52.in the world. I worked in financial services. A bid to get good
:56:52. > :57:02.bonuses? No. Never has so much been paid to so many for doing so little
:57:02. > :57:04.
:57:04. > :57:09.on your watch. We have to regulate it properly, which we are doing, to
:57:09. > :57:17.ring-fence the casino banking from the commercial banking. You have
:57:17. > :57:22.made virtually no progress in three years. Please stop interrupting.
:57:22. > :57:26.They are not lending. This is an industry that employs 1 million
:57:26. > :57:34.people and generates �100 billion a year in taxes, which funds the
:57:34. > :57:38.public services we all want. Is it right or wrong for Brussels to do
:57:38. > :57:42.this? Brussels does not have a financial services industry.
:57:42. > :57:46.Britain has the biggest financial services industry in Europe, and we
:57:46. > :57:54.need to regulate it properly. It is not up to Brussels. They are just
:57:54. > :57:59.trying to grab the British powers. It was the bankers who got us into
:57:59. > :58:07.this mess, so if dropping their bonuses makes them go abroad, I say,
:58:07. > :58:11.good. Our time is up, so we must end there. Andrew Neil is on your
:58:11. > :58:14.next with a special election edition of This Week. They will
:58:14. > :58:18.have the results of this by- election, which we have been trying
:58:18. > :58:23.to guess at. They will be on to the early hours until the results come
:58:23. > :58:26.through. Next time, Question Time will be in Dover. We will have
:58:26. > :58:30.Melanie Phillips and Bob Crowe among our panellists. The week
:58:30. > :58:39.after that, we will be in Cardiff. To come to either programme, apply