:00:13. > :00:23.Tonight we are in the departure hall of the cruise terminal at the
:00:23. > :00:31.
:00:31. > :00:36.port of Dover. But we are staying Good evening. On the panel, the
:00:36. > :00:41.Conservative Cabinet minister, Ken Clarke. Labour's Shadow Education
:00:41. > :00:46.Secretary, Stephen Twigg. The Daily Mail columnist, Melanie Phillips.
:00:46. > :00:56.The leader of the RMT union, Bob Crow. And the UKIP candidate to
:00:56. > :01:07.
:01:07. > :01:15.beat the Tories in last week's Thank you. A wonderful sound of a
:01:15. > :01:23.ferry just leaving the harbour as we start. Is it time we divide
:01:23. > :01:33.Europe and closed our borders and say we are for? -- say we are for
:01:33. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:39.We are trying to cut down the total number of immigration, but not from
:01:39. > :01:43.inside Europe. 2 million people had been added to the population during
:01:44. > :01:50.the term of the previous government, but they are largely coming from
:01:50. > :01:55.around the world. We already got down the influx quite considerably.
:01:55. > :01:59.Not by excluding, we don't want to exclude Tories, foreigners,
:01:59. > :02:03.students, certainly not skilled people. But having sensible rules
:02:03. > :02:11.and then applying them properly to a level we can afford. As far as
:02:11. > :02:15.Europe, what we need to do is press on, the full advantage as out of a
:02:15. > :02:20.single market. Really, the British are pressing the current drive for
:02:20. > :02:24.reform to open up further, to extend further and make ourselves a
:02:24. > :02:27.big block in world affairs. We have the biggest market in the world,
:02:27. > :02:31.let's make it effective and extended to more things. You can't
:02:31. > :02:36.have a single market without having the free movement of people.
:02:36. > :02:40.can't say we are full, in other words? There are a vast number of
:02:40. > :02:46.British people working in Europe. If we suddenly say to our partners,
:02:46. > :02:51.we are not letting any foreigners come here. Of course, we expect to
:02:51. > :02:58.have a lot of investment and trade. I think they'd think we've taken
:02:58. > :03:01.leave of our senses. There are rules. People can come here to work,
:03:01. > :03:06.skilled people are desirable. The Polish people came here and did
:03:06. > :03:12.work. They claimed far less in benefit and the equivalent British
:03:12. > :03:16.people would have done. So you have no hesitation saying, steady as we
:03:16. > :03:19.go, it's fine. As long as they are rules. You can't just turn up
:03:19. > :03:24.because you want Health Service treatment, you can't just come
:03:24. > :03:27.because you want benefits. You do have to be looking for work. It's
:03:27. > :03:31.partly because our administration has over the years been pretty
:03:31. > :03:39.pathetic at enforcing those rules. We have perfectly good and sensible
:03:39. > :03:43.rules. You can tidy them up a bit. They is a crisis we are in economic
:03:43. > :03:47.Lee in the world, the British suddenly start saying they are
:03:47. > :03:52.selected foreigners who we are not going to allowed to come here, or
:03:52. > :03:57.we wish to trade more and more with friendly countries but no, we are
:03:57. > :04:03.closing our borders to your people. I think we would make the situation
:04:03. > :04:11.worse. Diane James, the Tories have got it dead right? I couldn't
:04:11. > :04:17.disagree more. I believe you are spot on, and so does UKIP. In terms
:04:17. > :04:20.of we have got to admit that enough is enough. We've got to close the
:04:20. > :04:28.door on the open, and controlled immigration policy that the EU has
:04:28. > :04:32.in place. Ken has made a whole series of points. I cannot see, and
:04:32. > :04:36.ensured no EU country is suddenly going to say, just because we
:04:36. > :04:39.introduce a policy, it would mean leaving the EU to be able to
:04:39. > :04:42.achieve that, that they are suddenly going to throw out all of
:04:42. > :04:45.the pensioners who have settled, who bring a very good income into
:04:45. > :04:49.their countries, the vast number of highly skilled and professional
:04:49. > :04:53.people that work in France and Germany. What we are concerned
:04:53. > :04:57.about, and I am particularly concerned about, I can draw
:04:57. > :05:01.numerous anecdotes from the campaign last week, is when you
:05:01. > :05:04.undermine at the lowest level, as in young people wanting their first
:05:04. > :05:08.job and wanting to then work through and aspire and achieve
:05:09. > :05:12.ambition, when you undermine that then we have got a problem. That is
:05:12. > :05:17.what the EU policy is allowing to happen at the moment. Is your view
:05:17. > :05:25.that you couldn't get anywhere without leaving the EU? Is that
:05:25. > :05:29.your point? Yes. I understand the policy that is being proposed, is
:05:29. > :05:33.that there will be a necessity for someone to have one year's
:05:33. > :05:38.residency in the UK if they were another European National, which
:05:38. > :05:42.would then entitled them to NHS services, benefits and so on. I
:05:42. > :05:45.wonder if the panel would like to comment on the possibility way you
:05:45. > :05:50.have a large number of people who have been working in other European
:05:50. > :05:58.countries, maybe for two or three years, maybe for four or more, who
:05:59. > :06:03.are British nationals, returning to this country because the countries
:06:03. > :06:07.they are working in are not very successful at this particular time,
:06:07. > :06:15.Portugal, Spain and so on. When they come back, are they going to
:06:15. > :06:19.be asked to qualify for benefits? Other woman in the second rd.
:06:19. > :06:29.wanted to come back on Ken's point about allowing skilled workers into
:06:29. > :06:35.
:06:35. > :06:40.the country. Isn't it time we Let me start with that, it's such
:06:40. > :06:44.an important point. Week failed consistently under all governments
:06:44. > :06:47.to get in a far our young people to get a high quality skills they need,
:06:47. > :06:51.high quality apprenticeships. That's got to be a top priority. If
:06:51. > :06:57.we get that right, we won't need as many highly skilled people from
:06:57. > :07:00.other parts of the world. Will you be able to stop them coming in?
:07:00. > :07:04.need a proper policy on that. To answer the actual question, I don't
:07:04. > :07:09.think we need to close Borders. I do think we need policies that are
:07:09. > :07:12.clearer and firmer than we have had. That's why Yvette Cooper has spoken
:07:12. > :07:16.to date about acknowledging mistakes that Labour made when we
:07:16. > :07:19.were in government. We did get some of this wrong, including a European
:07:19. > :07:23.migration where other countries delayed bringing in the full rights
:07:23. > :07:27.for people to move to those countries, we in 2004 didn't do
:07:27. > :07:31.that. Be under estimated the number of people coming in. We got that
:07:31. > :07:35.wrong and we acknowledge that. We now need a set of policies for the
:07:35. > :07:39.future that doesn't close the door but introduces fairness into the
:07:39. > :07:43.system. One of the ways to get fairness is to have benefits in
:07:43. > :07:48.education. The other is about people being undercut in terms of
:07:48. > :07:50.jobs. Employers that aren't paying the minimum wage. Employers that of
:07:50. > :07:54.including accommodation costs in the minimum wage. That should not
:07:54. > :07:57.be happening. That is why we are having people going out and
:07:58. > :08:01.recruiting from other parts of the world and cutting out local workers
:08:01. > :08:07.here. There are things we need to address, and we can do what about
:08:07. > :08:14.closing of Borders entirely, which is neither realistic nor desirable.
:08:14. > :08:19.To come to the ladies point, I'm a secondary school teacher and I
:08:19. > :08:22.teach a lot of European immigrant children. The majority of them are
:08:22. > :08:29.really hard-working students. Within a year or two most of them
:08:29. > :08:35.are fluent in English. We were training our young people with
:08:35. > :08:38.BTECs. The current education policy, with having to do EBaccs,
:08:38. > :08:45.humanities and whatever else, it means we are not training a large
:08:45. > :08:48.proportion of our students properly. We are not helping ourselves.
:08:48. > :08:55.is your view on closing the shutters and saying that we are
:08:55. > :09:01.full up? I like the ability that I can move to Europe if I wanted to
:09:01. > :09:04.and work. If we are going to have people moving here and we accept
:09:04. > :09:10.that, we have to put things in place to ensure they can be
:09:10. > :09:13.functioning people within our society. And you on the left.
:09:13. > :09:17.main concern in immigration is people come over her and the work
:09:17. > :09:19.for three months, a company will get them in. They are only
:09:19. > :09:24.contracted to back three months. Once they are finished they are
:09:24. > :09:27.then out there and they claim benefits from that. That can bring
:09:27. > :09:32.in another group of people to work. Then the people from the previous
:09:32. > :09:36.three months, what are they doing in England? They are just claiming
:09:36. > :09:42.benefits and don't go anywhere else. And there are too many people in
:09:42. > :09:46.that category? Definitely. In Dover we have a lot of youth unemployment
:09:46. > :09:51.any weight. We already have plenty of Eastern Europeans doing the same.
:09:51. > :09:54.Do we need any more coming in from Bulgaria and Romania next year? We
:09:54. > :09:58.need the youths that we have in this country to learn some skills,
:09:58. > :10:04.even if they are low skilled, and get some low-skilled jobs. We
:10:05. > :10:08.haven't got more low-skilled jobs for Eastern Europeans coming in.
:10:08. > :10:13.answer to the question, we can't close the border because we belong
:10:13. > :10:17.to a club, one of whose foundation no rules is open borders. If you
:10:17. > :10:21.don't like the rules of the club, you have to get out of it. I
:10:21. > :10:26.personally think, I'm very glad that at last we are having this
:10:26. > :10:30.discussion because for a long time immigration was a taboo subject,
:10:30. > :10:35.but the proposals that the government is making all suggesting
:10:35. > :10:40.now caught in a kind of panic to pretend that they are dealing with
:10:40. > :10:45.this problem, such as new rules of residency to qualify for Health
:10:45. > :10:49.Service or benefits, I don't think that's going to work. Either the EU
:10:49. > :10:52.itself is going to say, this is against our rules, or our own
:10:52. > :10:56.courts are going to say, because of human rights, we can't discriminate
:10:57. > :11:02.against people from abroad. I think we should come out of Europe, I've
:11:02. > :11:08.always thought that, I didn't ever think we should go in. Because I
:11:08. > :11:11.always thought this was a political project above all. Whatever the
:11:11. > :11:15.economic benefits, and I don't think Britain has got many economic
:11:15. > :11:19.benefits from Europe, I think the essence of a nation is that we
:11:19. > :11:25.should be able to govern ourselves in accordance with our own needs.
:11:25. > :11:30.One of which is to determine our own population number and our own
:11:30. > :11:34.population's needs. We may want to bring in people from abroad. People
:11:34. > :11:37.from abroad often add greatly to the value of the nation. But it
:11:37. > :11:41.should be for us as a sovereign nation to decide what we need, how
:11:42. > :11:46.many people we need to come in, what kind of people. This is a
:11:46. > :11:51.proper debate for us to have. At the moment, we belong to wear club
:11:51. > :11:54.which says, oh, no, you can't have that debate because you now belong
:11:54. > :11:58.to wake club where there open borders and where these rules are
:11:58. > :12:02.no longer yours to make. I think this is an anti-democratic position.
:12:02. > :12:12.I think the European Union is an anti-democratic project. I believed
:12:12. > :12:14.
:12:14. > :12:17.that Britain should reassert its Bob Crow. I want to distinguish
:12:17. > :12:22.between the European Union and Europe will start my union's policy
:12:22. > :12:26.is clear, to come out of the European Union. But we want to be
:12:26. > :12:31.involved in Europe, working with other groups of workers who we
:12:31. > :12:34.believe are our friends. My view, personally, is that your
:12:35. > :12:40.nationality is purely an accident of birth. Were you were born is
:12:40. > :12:43.your nationality. It wasn't too long ago, 45-50 years ago, that
:12:43. > :12:46.London Transport was going out to the West Indies because there was a
:12:46. > :12:49.shortage of labour for people working on London Underground and
:12:49. > :12:55.London Transport. It's not an issue of what your nationality is. The
:12:55. > :13:00.issue at the end of the day is that the European Union and not Europe
:13:00. > :13:04.is anti-democratic and the reason why they are open in the borders to
:13:04. > :13:09.allow Bulgarians, Romanians and Polish is a relevant. There are
:13:09. > :13:13.people in this audience tonight who are probably Irish, maybe some of
:13:13. > :13:16.their family of Polish. The reason we have opened the borders Up is
:13:16. > :13:20.because the people coming to this country are economic migrants, who
:13:20. > :13:23.are coming to this country looking for work. By version of the fact
:13:23. > :13:26.they are coming into this country, they are lowering the rates and
:13:26. > :13:30.conditions for those people who are working here. We should be
:13:30. > :13:33.absolutely clear that the person wants to come to this country, why
:13:33. > :13:36.are we saying to the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal that your
:13:36. > :13:40.footballers can't come and play for you because they are immigrants?
:13:40. > :13:44.They come here because they got a work permit. The simple thing to
:13:44. > :13:47.say is if you want to come to this country, you have a work permit.
:13:47. > :13:51.You couldn't go to Australia without a work permit. You couldn't
:13:51. > :13:55.go to Cuba without a work permit. So why should people come to
:13:55. > :13:59.Britain without a work permit? But at the end of the day, it's about
:13:59. > :14:03.time we didn't wait for Cameron to be re-elected, to get a referendum.
:14:03. > :14:13.We should have a referendum now to decide if we are going to be part
:14:13. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:24.of the European Union or not. My Ken Clarke, what can you reply on
:14:25. > :14:30.the point that people come here to keep wages low and therefore
:14:30. > :14:36.undermine the working conditions of people already here? Where we have
:14:36. > :14:41.a minimum wage, that should be stopped. The Europeans don't stop
:14:41. > :14:46.us enforcing contracts and the minimum wage on anybody, whatever
:14:46. > :14:49.nationality. You can't discriminate. When I go to Europe as a tourist or
:14:49. > :14:53.doing my job, I take a little health card and I get offered
:14:53. > :15:00.health treatment in whatever country amid on the same basis as
:15:00. > :15:08.the locals. That is how it works. If you work in Europe as a British
:15:08. > :15:12.person, if you stay there and -- you acquire rights to benefits. It
:15:12. > :15:18.goes both ways. You can't say you will stop it without expecting them
:15:18. > :15:23.to say, well, we will stop your people coming here. I congratulate
:15:23. > :15:27.the two ladies. They took us on to skills training, apprenticeship,
:15:27. > :15:32.motivating our young people. Together with capital investment,
:15:32. > :15:36.that is the way to give jobs and stimulate our economy. At a time of
:15:36. > :15:40.crisis, it is too easy for parties like UKIP to say we can solve youth
:15:40. > :15:44.unemployment by stopping the Bulgarians coming here. If you
:15:44. > :15:48.start voting for that kind of protest movement, you take your eye
:15:48. > :15:52.off the ball. I would love to argue the merits of what we are doing. We
:15:52. > :15:57.have a private sector that has created a million more jobs since
:15:57. > :16:00.we came to power. We have thousands of Bulgarians here picking
:16:00. > :16:04.vegetables and fruit. They come because you can't get British
:16:04. > :16:09.people to do it. What have you done about manufacturing in this
:16:09. > :16:14.country? You have shut down coal, steel and Fisheries and there is
:16:14. > :16:22.not one kid that can leave school without an apprenticeship because
:16:23. > :16:25.of the disastrous policy of yours. The man in blue? To answer the
:16:25. > :16:30.question the gentleman said at the back, the question was about
:16:30. > :16:34.whether the country is full. On our current trajectory, there will be
:16:34. > :16:39.75 million of us on this little island. The immigration issue is
:16:39. > :16:44.for populist cheap shots from UKIP. The real issue is that there are
:16:44. > :16:49.too many people in this country now. If you live in the south-east, all
:16:49. > :16:59.the roads are full, the trains are full. We are crowded. There are too
:16:59. > :17:04.many people. Too many people coming and I agree. The birthrate is wrong,
:17:04. > :17:08.you mean? The issue should not lapse into this populist politics
:17:08. > :17:18.you get from UKIP. We need three more cities the size of Birmingham
:17:18. > :17:22.by 2050. The woman on the right? Everybody keeps mentioning the word
:17:22. > :17:26.workers, and Ken Clarke said that if we work in another European
:17:26. > :17:31.country, we establish rights. I wonder how those benefits compare
:17:31. > :17:37.to the benefits people get here which, within three months or so...
:17:37. > :17:44.And the man at the front? When we talk about an in-out referendum, my
:17:44. > :17:48.worry is whether people get the information they need. The same
:17:48. > :17:55.facts are being tested by both parties in Scotland over their
:17:55. > :17:59.referendum. When the Scots announce their referendum, David Cameron
:17:59. > :18:06.said, why don't you get on with it? Now he is asking for a referendum
:18:06. > :18:10.in four years' time. Let's move on. If you want to join
:18:10. > :18:20.in tonight, there are two ways of doing it. You can go on put up or
:18:20. > :18:30.
:18:30. > :18:36.text us. -- you can go on Twitter Mark Cheeseman. David Cameron
:18:36. > :18:41.advocates austerity. Vince Cable suggests spending. Who is right?
:18:41. > :18:45.Let's keep this one simple. We have the Budget coming up on the lines
:18:46. > :18:51.are drawn. The issue is whether we should ease up a bit and get more
:18:51. > :18:55.growth, or whether as Cameron says, we must stick as we are. There will
:18:56. > :19:00.be no surprises with what some members of the panel say, let's
:19:00. > :19:05.start with Stephen Twigg. Plan a clearly is not working. It is good
:19:05. > :19:11.to hear Vince Cable saying that, although he has had to row back a
:19:11. > :19:18.bit today. In 2012, the UK economy barely grow at all. We are not in a
:19:18. > :19:23.good state. That needs to change. We need a boost to capital spending.
:19:23. > :19:26.We have argued for a long time as part of the five point plan for
:19:26. > :19:31.jobs and growth that we should bring forward investment in things
:19:31. > :19:35.like schools and housing. We have a housing shortage and a lot of
:19:35. > :19:40.schools that need refurbishment. There are parts of the country
:19:40. > :19:43.without enough schools. We should employ construction workers and
:19:43. > :19:50.employ people in the supply chain and create apprenticeships to give
:19:50. > :19:56.a boost to the economy that is needed. What is it about Vince
:19:56. > :20:01.Cable that you agree with? He has made that point and we have made
:20:01. > :20:06.that point consistently. David Cameron's speech suggests that he
:20:06. > :20:10.is not listening to concerns being raised by his own Cabinet colleague
:20:10. > :20:14.and which are being shared now by the majority of the British people
:20:14. > :20:18.who have seen that this plan is not creating jobs. What chance does the
:20:18. > :20:23.Business Secretary have of his plan creating jobs? I'll would not bet
:20:23. > :20:30.on it. David Cameron and George Osborne are determined to go down
:20:30. > :20:35.this ideological road. They do not want to spend public money. But it
:20:35. > :20:39.makes economic sense to do this to get the recovery we need. Melanie
:20:39. > :20:45.Phillips. An ideological objection to spending more public money, that
:20:45. > :20:48.is quite a formulation. This country is in extraordinary
:20:48. > :20:55.difficulties because of its extraordinarily high level of debt.
:20:55. > :21:01.We have lived far beyond our means for too long. So to say that we
:21:01. > :21:06.should spend more is, on that basis, deeply irresponsible. Except that
:21:06. > :21:10.Vince Cable says interest rates are low and it is a good time to borrow.
:21:10. > :21:16.If you read Vince Cable's article in the New Statesman, it is hard to
:21:16. > :21:21.see what he is saying, because it is a bit opaque. He does not say we
:21:21. > :21:27.should be borrowing more. He says this is a difficult decision and
:21:27. > :21:30.there are arguments on both sides. He says the question is whether the
:21:30. > :21:34.Government should borrow more at current a very low interest rates
:21:34. > :21:38.to finance more capital spending. Such a strategy does not undermine
:21:38. > :21:44.the central objective of undermining the deficit. He says
:21:44. > :21:49.that is an argument. By is not in favour of it? He implies he is in
:21:49. > :21:54.favour of it, but that is a detail. Surely that is the substance of the
:21:54. > :22:00.thing. Should the Chancellor listen to this? He should not listen to
:22:00. > :22:06.Vince Cable. On the other hand, the government has not done what it
:22:06. > :22:10.should be doing. It has topped up cuts as if we are living in a
:22:10. > :22:17.tremendous age of austerity. In fact, it has not actually cut
:22:17. > :22:23.spending. This is a complex matter, spending and growth. I think you
:22:23. > :22:30.need to encourage people to personally spend. You need to cut
:22:30. > :22:40.their taxes. We have a crippling amounts of green taxes which are
:22:40. > :22:40.
:22:40. > :22:46.putting up the cost of fuel. In my view, the green agenda is a
:22:46. > :22:51.complete green herring. So your Budget would be a tax-cutting
:22:51. > :22:57.Budget? So it and taxes would be cut to make people feel more
:22:57. > :23:02.wealthy. At the same time, I would cut spending. For example,
:23:02. > :23:09.international aid is costing us some �12 billion a year. We are
:23:09. > :23:15.spending more on international aid them on the police. I would close
:23:15. > :23:19.down the department for international aid. That is
:23:19. > :23:29.simplistic. We need a fairer tax system to tax the wealthy when the
:23:29. > :23:32.
:23:32. > :23:36.gap between rich and poor has never been so wide. Bob growth. -- Bob
:23:36. > :23:40.Crow, as a trade unionist looking at what the Budget might do, what
:23:40. > :23:44.do you think of what Vince Cable has said? The Budget will be
:23:44. > :23:49.whatever it has been for any Tory Chancellor, to look after the rich
:23:49. > :23:54.at the expense of the poor. The word austerity has been used to
:23:54. > :23:57.roll back all the gains working people have had since World War II,
:23:57. > :24:05.attacking the National Health Service, attacking comprehensive
:24:05. > :24:08.education. You have only got to see the figures this week. When
:24:08. > :24:12.Thatcher was elected, she was giving council houses back for
:24:12. > :24:17.people to buy so that people had the right to buy their house. Now
:24:17. > :24:23.20% of council houses sold off under Thatcher are being run by
:24:23. > :24:27.private landlords. People under the Conservative government have been
:24:27. > :24:32.flocking houses to people who have nowhere else to live. If you look
:24:32. > :24:34.at the policies of Labour, liberals and Tories, they all support
:24:34. > :24:38.privatisation, they all support keeping the anti-trade union laws
:24:38. > :24:43.in place and they all support illegal laws around the world. You
:24:43. > :24:47.only get growth by getting more working people to have more money
:24:47. > :24:51.in our pockets to start spending that money. Instead of talking
:24:51. > :24:55.about tax cuts for the rich, they should raise the minimum wage for
:24:55. > :25:00.those at the bottom who will then spend at that money and rejuvenate
:25:00. > :25:03.the economy. The biggest thing is to get people back to work. We have
:25:03. > :25:07.1 million builders on the dole, claiming social security and not
:25:08. > :25:12.paying tax, and we have a shortage of social housing. Surely it is
:25:12. > :25:16.time to get the builders back to work so that they pay tax, don't
:25:16. > :25:23.draw social security and we give them homes to live in and we give
:25:24. > :25:27.dignity and respect to builders and other people. In the Depression,
:25:27. > :25:32.Henry Ford doubled wages for the workers because he understood that
:25:32. > :25:37.if people had more money, they spent more money and the economy
:25:37. > :25:42.grow. The disaster has been mass unemployment, for lower wages.
:25:42. > :25:46.Britain is now one of the worst ranked wages in the world. We have
:25:46. > :25:56.dropped about 40 it in the world compared to where we were eight
:25:56. > :25:59.
:25:59. > :26:03.years ago. Ken Clarke, that is a hefty attack not just on Tory
:26:03. > :26:09.governments, but the other parties as well. What do you make of Vince
:26:09. > :26:13.Cable and what he said? And maybe comment on what Bob Crow said.
:26:13. > :26:19.Firstly, David Cameron, Vince Cable, George Osborne and the rest of the
:26:19. > :26:25.Cabinet are all agreed that we have to get the burden of debt down. It
:26:25. > :26:30.distill the worst in Europe. We are still spending at a lunatic level.
:26:30. > :26:35.We are not having to cut as fast as other countries because we have
:26:35. > :26:39.more competence in getting it down. We were spending �5 for every �4 we
:26:39. > :26:43.raised. One of the last act of the Labour government was to cut
:26:43. > :26:47.capital spending by 25% because even they were getting worried
:26:47. > :26:50.about the impact of the money we were spending in other areas. We
:26:51. > :26:56.are now spending more on capital investment than the previous Labour
:26:56. > :27:04.government. But Bob says you should spend more and get builders back to
:27:04. > :27:08.work. We are trying to build a high-speed train, Bob, because
:27:08. > :27:17.capital investment has to be of some economic value. We are
:27:17. > :27:25.spending a lot. What are you giving too young people? 1,000,016 to 24-
:27:25. > :27:30.year-olds on the dole. Unless you give them hope, they will wander
:27:30. > :27:34.away. I agree, but it is a tragedy that we were handed a situation
:27:34. > :27:40.where a young people, particularly those leaving school after the
:27:40. > :27:46.credit crunch and the recession, are coming out and there was
:27:46. > :27:49.nothing for them. The answer is not to reopen coalmines or put up
:27:49. > :27:54.social security benefits and start spending money in all directions,
:27:54. > :28:00.the answer is to create a modern, competitive economy for which our
:28:00. > :28:03.young people are properly trained. What about the idea that Vince
:28:03. > :28:12.Cable appeared to put an which Bob Crow seems to think is good as well
:28:12. > :28:22.of using low interest rates to borrow and build housing? We are
:28:22. > :28:24.
:28:24. > :28:28.concentrating on housing. The planning system has to be reformed.
:28:28. > :28:34.The funding to lend scheme is restoring the mortgage market
:28:34. > :28:38.rapidly. You must realise what a tragedy we took over. I am used to
:28:38. > :28:43.succeeding Labour governments who left the place in a mess, but never
:28:43. > :28:51.on this scale. Gordon Brown and New Labour were a catastrophe. All they
:28:51. > :29:01.said was, let's spend a bit more money and let us borrow it.
:29:01. > :29:05.
:29:05. > :29:09.It is keeping our flexible labour market. It's Margaret Thatcher's
:29:09. > :29:15.labour market that means we are still creating jobs in the present
:29:15. > :29:23.difficult market. It misses out the banking crisis and what have to be
:29:23. > :29:31.done to rescue RE economy from the banking crisis. Forgive me if I'm
:29:31. > :29:37.wrong, it was you... It was an international banking crisis. You
:29:37. > :29:41.can't blame Gordon Brown for the American banking crisis. It was not
:29:41. > :29:45.international at first, it was in Wall Street and the City of London.
:29:45. > :29:51.You would have heard me denouncing the changes in regulation that your
:29:52. > :29:57.lot were making. Creating the FSA. It was what I was saying. George
:29:57. > :30:01.Osborne said we were over-regulated the banking sector. It was bad
:30:01. > :30:04.regulation, pathetic regulation. Your government, when we had an
:30:04. > :30:08.obvious credit boom which was followed by a terrible credit
:30:08. > :30:14.crunch, did nothing about it. All you did was give knighthoods to the
:30:14. > :30:20.most prosperous bankers. Let me go to the woman here and then I come
:30:20. > :30:30.to you. Spain and Ireland are two countries in Europe which are awash
:30:30. > :30:38.with empty houses. Whole villages, towns. Houses are not the cure all
:30:38. > :30:45.of the problem that we have. The government is giving the banks so
:30:45. > :30:50.much money that they pay savers and in particular pensioners an
:30:50. > :30:57.absolute pittance. We are terrified to spend money. When migrants come
:30:57. > :31:02.into England, we see them. We see them come in through this port,
:31:02. > :31:07.which is the closest port to Europe. They bring everything with them. If
:31:07. > :31:11.they are coming over to be self- employed and start a company, they
:31:12. > :31:17.bring all their machinery, all their goods. They only employed
:31:17. > :31:23.their own. There are companies here which only advertise in Eastern
:31:23. > :31:29.Europe. They won't touch any body that already lives here. And the
:31:29. > :31:32.wages are lower. Those Europeans that do work here, and it isn't
:31:32. > :31:40.just Europeans, it is also the Asians, they are sending their
:31:40. > :31:50.money home. They do not spend it in the UK. Unless we can have some
:31:50. > :31:51.
:31:51. > :31:55.spending, we cannot grow. Diane James. The question, what appears
:31:55. > :32:00.to be a split between David Cameron and Vince Cable and which way the
:32:00. > :32:04.government should go now. I thought the first part of the question was
:32:04. > :32:08.what we could expect from the Budget. I think we are going to get
:32:08. > :32:12.more of the same. It comes down to the very brink of approach that
:32:12. > :32:19.George Osborne has. Or you could say the very obstinate approach he
:32:19. > :32:26.has. He seems absolutely focused, with David Cameron's support, of
:32:26. > :32:31.going a single route. There appears to be no Plan B. He doesn't even be
:32:31. > :32:36.able to contemplate a Plan B. That is much more worrying. I hear what
:32:36. > :32:41.Ken says. How many times have you people and other friends and
:32:41. > :32:45.relatives heard this refrain, well, you left us with a mess, Labour. We
:32:45. > :32:55.are three years into way five-year government. To keep on laying the
:32:55. > :32:57.
:32:57. > :33:02.blame at the previous government is The man at the back in the second
:33:02. > :33:09.row. When our credit rating was downgraded, Moody's complemented
:33:09. > :33:14.the government on the political will to think out the financial
:33:14. > :33:22.crisis. To implement Vince Cable's ideas of Keynesian economics would
:33:22. > :33:29.simply undermine that plan of austerity. They commented that the
:33:29. > :33:32.deficit reduction, it was going at two slower pace. If you bring in
:33:32. > :33:42.that kind of borrowing now, you will simply downgrade our rating
:33:42. > :33:43.
:33:43. > :33:49.even more. Vince Cable a couple of weeks ago said it wasn't keen Xian.
:33:49. > :33:54.You don't agree with Vince Cable on very much. I do, I do on
:33:54. > :33:59.infrastructure spending. Could it be that neither party has got the
:33:59. > :34:03.right solution? That what is needed is tax cuts for working people
:34:03. > :34:07.rather than the wealthy. When this government came in, one of the
:34:07. > :34:11.first things they did was raised a tax on consumption, be raised VAT.
:34:11. > :34:14.Then they are going to cut corporation tax but they haven't
:34:15. > :34:22.done anything about business rates, which destroys people who provide
:34:22. > :34:27.several jobs and get landed with a bail. I'd like to ask anybody who
:34:27. > :34:30.would answer that question because I don't know. There is going to be
:34:30. > :34:35.a tax cut in April, and it's for millionaires. The government is
:34:35. > :34:39.cutting the top rate of tax. At a time when we have austerity, a
:34:39. > :34:49.rising gap between rich and poor, and yet the only people getting a
:34:49. > :34:49.
:34:49. > :34:54.tax cut on millionaires. That has Let's stick with the current
:34:54. > :34:59.political scene but take a topical question from Brian Haw. Relating
:34:59. > :35:02.to what happened last week. Does the emergence of UKIP at the
:35:02. > :35:12.Eastleigh by-election represent a danger to the Tories at the next
:35:12. > :35:16.election? Is this a danger to the Tories? What they do about it? It's
:35:16. > :35:20.no good asking you, Diane James, whether you think you are a danger
:35:20. > :35:30.to the Tories because presumably you think you do. Bob Crow, what do
:35:30. > :35:31.
:35:31. > :35:36.you think? There are Tories... The policies they promote of four big
:35:36. > :35:40.business. As I said earlier, the policies of both New Labour,
:35:40. > :35:45.liberals and UKIP are all ones of big business, keeping anti-trade
:35:45. > :35:50.union laws in place, emasculating working people so they can't fight,
:35:50. > :35:56.lowering pay. That's what you've had over 35-40 years of destroying
:35:56. > :36:00.in the structure in this country. What's going to happen to UKIP?
:36:00. > :36:04.That's not for me to save. I would say that the Tories should be
:36:04. > :36:10.particularly concerned about UKIP because they are saying, in my view,
:36:10. > :36:13.they are asking people, they should have a referendum now. Why should
:36:13. > :36:17.they elected a government which has lost all sorts of credibility, and
:36:17. > :36:20.at the end of that you will get a referendum? It's good enough for
:36:20. > :36:25.the Spanish, Irish and other groups of people throughout Europe have a
:36:25. > :36:29.say and Europe, why can't we have a referendum before we go into the
:36:29. > :36:35.next general election? If I was the Tories, I'd be extremely concerned
:36:35. > :36:39.about what damage UKIP is doing. UKIP are really poor excuse for a
:36:39. > :36:43.political party. They just focus on the vulnerable people in society
:36:43. > :36:53.and scaremonger them into getting their votes macro. I think they are
:36:53. > :37:01.disgusting. Can I go back please... No, No. She thinks you are
:37:01. > :37:05.disgusting. Why are you saying disgusting? You pray on vulnerable
:37:05. > :37:09.people in society who feel they are going to be attacked by immigrants
:37:09. > :37:16.coming into our country when there are a lot of positives immigrants
:37:16. > :37:22.bring to our country. Let me go back to our policy on taxation.
:37:22. > :37:28.Please answer her question. trying to get there. I don't think
:37:28. > :37:33.we are in any... We have got a very, very good policy to encourage young
:37:34. > :37:37.people into work. We also have been the only party to identify what is
:37:37. > :37:41.undermining our economy at the moment and what is undermining the
:37:42. > :37:45.employment prospects for young people. What you say is rubbish.
:37:45. > :37:51.How are 4 million Bulgarians going to come to our country when they
:37:51. > :37:55.only got a population of 7 million people - it's absurd! We didn't say
:37:55. > :37:59.that. I read your party literature at Eastleigh. The way that figure
:37:59. > :38:04.came about was a survey conducted in Bulgaria by the Bulgarian
:38:04. > :38:08.government. They identified that 56 % of the respondents indicated they
:38:08. > :38:13.would like to leave the country. Why did you use such unbalanced
:38:13. > :38:16.data in your publications, when all it does is get people into voting
:38:16. > :38:20.for you because they think they don't want migrants in the country?
:38:20. > :38:25.The data was produced by the Bulgarian government. If you are
:38:25. > :38:28.casting decisions about the quality of Bulgarian data, I can't comment.
:38:28. > :38:31.We mealy sight of what was in the public domain and used that in a
:38:31. > :38:35.correct and accurate fashion. an issue of whether you thought
:38:35. > :38:40.they were all going to come or just a large percentage of Bulgarians
:38:40. > :38:46.would rather be living here and in Bulgaria. The message from the
:38:46. > :38:53.survey conducted there was that 56 %, and 56 % of the figures...
:38:53. > :38:56.implication was they are all going to come. We drew the conclusion,
:38:56. > :39:01.and it was from the Bulgarian government data, but that
:39:01. > :39:05.proportion of the population wanted to leave that country. In terms of
:39:05. > :39:10.the proportion of residents that have already left that country, a
:39:10. > :39:15.Germany and a significant proportion are in the UK. We happen
:39:15. > :39:20.to be, in terms of our benefits system and our entitlement system,
:39:20. > :39:23.the most attractive destination in Europe. Just remember, if you are
:39:24. > :39:27.rate Bulgarian or Romanian at the moment, you might be on a basic
:39:27. > :39:32.weekly wage of a couple of hundred pounds. You will come here and
:39:32. > :39:38.double that just in terms of your benefits. A very strong case for
:39:38. > :39:41.saying that the controls are needed. It's really important we have a
:39:41. > :39:45.proper and balanced debate about immigration. In the earlier
:39:45. > :39:48.question we managed to do that. If we do go down a route of
:39:48. > :39:51.scaremongering and taking a survey and then assuming that everyone who
:39:51. > :39:56.says they'd rather live somewhere else is then going to come and live
:39:56. > :40:04.here, that doesn't make a proper, balanced debate about immigration
:40:04. > :40:07.or Europe. To answer the question, I think all of us in the main
:40:07. > :40:11.established political parties have to recognise there is a lot of
:40:11. > :40:15.voter disenchantment. The Tories slip to third place in Eastleigh,
:40:15. > :40:18.it was a terrible result for them, but I don't think any of us can be
:40:18. > :40:21.complacent. People are disillusioned with politics, they
:40:22. > :40:26.want different answers from politicians. That's why all of us,
:40:26. > :40:30.whichever party we are in, have got to engage with legitimate public
:40:30. > :40:33.concerns, but the run immigration, jobs and the economy, the health
:40:33. > :40:38.service, and I hope that that is what we can do. I respect that UKIP
:40:38. > :40:41.is clearly a serious political party engaged in serious debate,
:40:41. > :40:46.but I hope that they will not engage in some of the tactics that
:40:46. > :40:51.we heard about earlier. Do you think they might let Labour through
:40:52. > :40:56.by hurting the Tory vote in enough constituencies? I'm not going to
:40:56. > :41:02.get into that kind of speculation. Some Labour people switch to UKIP,
:41:02. > :41:05.Tories switch, Lib Dems switched. Lord Ashcroft did some interesting
:41:05. > :41:10.polling about people voting in Eastleigh, where they might vote at
:41:10. > :41:15.a future election. It's very hard to know. We've got to win back
:41:15. > :41:22.people who switched away from us in 2005. A lot of them went to the Lib
:41:22. > :41:27.Dems and the Tories, but some of them might be tempted to vote UKIP.
:41:27. > :41:31.I completely agree with the lady at the back there. UKIP are just
:41:31. > :41:35.picking up... Everyone is disenchanted with politicians.
:41:35. > :41:40.Nobody believes that you are connected with society and that
:41:40. > :41:43.needs to be addressed. But I think the scaremongering, there are a lot
:41:43. > :41:47.of scared people out there. It's going to be a dangerous time come
:41:47. > :41:52.the next election because parties like UKIP, who do say some
:41:52. > :41:57.outrageous things, they are going to capitalise on it. Melanie
:41:57. > :42:01.Phillips. In answer to the question, UKIP Auret danger to the Tories
:42:01. > :42:09.because of the danger they will split the Tory vote. Mr Cameron has
:42:09. > :42:14.made a tremendous lot for his own back because he scorned UKIP as a
:42:14. > :42:18.party of, what was it, closet racists, blinis and fruit cakes.
:42:18. > :42:22.Rather like we've been hearing from members of the audience this
:42:22. > :42:26.evening. Since very large numbers of people who always used to vote
:42:26. > :42:31.Conservative have the same kind of views about immigration, b e u,
:42:31. > :42:35.human rights, traditional values of one kind or another, Mr Cameron
:42:35. > :42:40.basically insulted his own core vote. He insulted the vast majority
:42:40. > :42:45.of Conservatives. As a result, Conservatives have felt for years,
:42:45. > :42:48.true Conservatives, first of all, toe to be disenfranchised because
:42:48. > :42:52.they're so called Conservative Party had actually decided it had
:42:52. > :42:56.become left wing in order to gain power. Not only did they become
:42:56. > :43:00.disenfranchised, but they became subjected to the kind of insults
:43:00. > :43:03.that we've heard from members of the audience. In which people who
:43:03. > :43:08.have a perfectly reasonable point of view, that while immigrants are
:43:08. > :43:12.going to add greatly to the value of the nation, there has got to be
:43:13. > :43:18.a limit, you cannot have everyone coming in. There are genuinely
:43:18. > :43:24.profound reasons why British people might want to retain democratic
:43:24. > :43:28.control over their government rather than see a lid to the EU.
:43:28. > :43:33.These are legitimate points of view. You may disagree, you are welcome
:43:33. > :43:41.to disagree, but people scaremongering, racists,
:43:41. > :43:45.disgusting... This is why... It is this vilification of the point of
:43:45. > :43:50.view of ordinary, decent people in their millions which is what Mr
:43:50. > :43:54.Cameron has managed to achieve. He's managed to tap his core
:43:54. > :44:01.constituency, I don't want you on board because I think you are
:44:01. > :44:05.disgusting. You backwoodsman, you Conservatives. I'm going to turn
:44:05. > :44:15.this into not the Conservative Party. Look where it's got him, and
:44:15. > :44:23.
:44:23. > :44:29.Melanie has assured me that I am now a Conservative Party that is
:44:29. > :44:38.now more left wing. The use certainly are! I was a mainstream
:44:38. > :44:43.But the idea that the current Conservative Party has swung to the
:44:43. > :44:50.left is extreme. Even Bob Crow would agree with me. It is the most
:44:50. > :44:54.remarkable thing I have ever heard. When we were joining the European
:44:54. > :44:58.Union, it was the League of Empire loyalists that used to disrupt our
:44:58. > :45:05.meetings and say we were letting foreigners in and betraying the
:45:05. > :45:10.country. To go back to Eastleigh, when I was in the Thatcher
:45:10. > :45:14.government, I used to do by- election specials. Night after
:45:14. > :45:20.night, I never had a winner. No governing party has gained a seat
:45:20. > :45:26.since the early 1980s. In Eastleigh, it was the first time a party of
:45:26. > :45:36.the Government actually won and held its seat. We were not good at
:45:36. > :45:39.
:45:39. > :45:47.that as Conservatives in the 1980s. The people of Eastleigh that did
:45:47. > :45:51.not vote because of the Bulgarian hordes, they were discontented with
:45:51. > :45:59.the political class because they think the parliament has mishandled
:45:59. > :46:04.the things and they blame politicians for the present trouble.
:46:04. > :46:07.But the scandals seem to be more Liberal Democrat scandals this time.
:46:07. > :46:11.There is a sad case today of somebody fiddling his driving.. The
:46:11. > :46:14.idea that that shows that Liberal Democrats are all not to be trusted
:46:14. > :46:21.with their driving licences or vote Labour, they are better with their
:46:21. > :46:24.driving speeding points, it is just a personal thing. Some of the
:46:24. > :46:30.protests are just anti protests. A lot of the votes were from people
:46:30. > :46:35.who had not voted at all recently. In Italy, they have Beppe Grillo.
:46:35. > :46:42.And to be fair, if I had to have either Beppe Grillo or Nigel Farage,
:46:42. > :46:50.I would take Nigel Farage. He is less of a clown. Diane James?
:46:50. > :46:56.James certainly, but not Silvio Berlusconi. They had a total
:46:56. > :47:01.rejection. But at the moment, UKIP, which only has policies which are a
:47:01. > :47:05.bit nasty sometimes on Europe and immigration, they have no sensible
:47:05. > :47:09.policy on any other subject, they are the things that make headlines,
:47:09. > :47:15.they are capturing all the people who say "a plague on all your
:47:15. > :47:18.houses". We must address that. We must show a strong, competent,
:47:18. > :47:23.courageous government and get across to people that it will take
:47:23. > :47:27.a long time to get a modern, competitive economy. We are
:47:27. > :47:32.reforming the country and try to reform Europe so we stand up better
:47:32. > :47:42.in the modern world against the new changes we have got. As for putting
:47:42. > :47:47.UKIP in charge of the Syrian crisis... Why do you say that?
:47:47. > :47:57.is not a governing party. They know what they are against, and they
:47:57. > :47:59.
:47:59. > :48:08.don't know what they are for. agree with Melanie. I disagree with
:48:08. > :48:17.two of the ladies who called people disgusting. It is a democracy and
:48:17. > :48:22.everybody has got that choice. But Bob Crow is white. We need action
:48:22. > :48:28.and less of the rhetoric. We need jobs for working people and better
:48:28. > :48:34.pensions for working people. have only got an hour and we have
:48:34. > :48:39.taken three-quarters of it. Let me get this question from Jennifer
:48:39. > :48:42.Maidman, please. When even senior clergy admit that they cannot live
:48:42. > :48:52.according to the religious dogma they promote, is it time for a
:48:52. > :48:53.
:48:53. > :49:00.radical rethink of Church teachings on gender, sex and sexuality?
:49:00. > :49:04.you catch that? The question refers, I suspect, to the troubles of the
:49:04. > :49:09.Roman Catholic Church in Scotland with Cardinal De Bruyne, but also
:49:09. > :49:12.with a whole lot of other scandals. When even senior clergy admit that
:49:12. > :49:19.they cannot live according to the dogma they promote, is it time for
:49:19. > :49:23.a rethink of Church teachings on gender, sex and sexuality? If the
:49:23. > :49:26.question is referring to the difficulties of the Catholic Church
:49:26. > :49:34.and Cardinal O'Brien and the many scandals in the Catholic Church
:49:34. > :49:40.about paedophile priests, there is a fundamental problem that the
:49:40. > :49:46.Catholic Church has, which is its repudiation of human sexuality and
:49:46. > :49:51.its complete ban on married priests. Personally, I am not a Catholic, I
:49:51. > :49:58.am a Jew. The Jewish religion puts an enormous priority on marriage
:49:58. > :50:06.and children. But there is something very unnatural about
:50:06. > :50:12.expecting human beings to live in a state of chastity, without wives
:50:12. > :50:19.and children. While that can't be entirely explain the phenomenon of
:50:19. > :50:26.paedophile priests, it is a significant part of it. It is a
:50:26. > :50:31.crisis for the Catholic Church. I am not somebody who thinks that
:50:31. > :50:36.churches have to run with the secular tide and adapt themselves
:50:36. > :50:40.to changing social mores, because churches are different. There is no
:50:40. > :50:48.reason why churches which could hear two religious precepts should
:50:48. > :50:54.take on board what our social sexual attitudes are white. I would
:50:54. > :50:57.defend a Church's White to have a Conservative point of view. But if
:50:57. > :51:03.you deny human nature and you make it impossible to be a full human
:51:03. > :51:10.being and you expect people to sublimate a natural state of
:51:10. > :51:16.affairs, you are asking for trouble. For many years, the Church has
:51:16. > :51:20.covered this up. What is shocking towards all is are not just that
:51:20. > :51:28.this phenomenon is happening, but bad for so many years, it has been
:51:28. > :51:34.covered up. Even today, it is being covered up. And with Cardinal
:51:34. > :51:41.O'Brien, he was constantly attacking homosexuality as captives
:51:41. > :51:46.of sexual aberration. Stephen Twigg. I am not religious, I was brought
:51:46. > :51:50.up in a non-religious family, so I always tread with care when
:51:50. > :51:56.questions like this come up, partly for some of the reasons Melanie has
:51:56. > :52:00.given. Politicians of any faith have to tread with care. That said,
:52:00. > :52:05.there is a mismatch between the things he was saying and the things
:52:05. > :52:14.he was doing. That raises legitimate concerns for public
:52:14. > :52:18.debate. Religions have an absolute right to have their own teachings.
:52:18. > :52:23.However, in most religions, there is a debate about this. Whilst they
:52:23. > :52:27.do not think there is an obligation to match some development of
:52:28. > :52:32.secular thinking, in reality, religions are made up of their
:52:32. > :52:37.followers, and those debates do happen. There is a debate among
:52:37. > :52:41.Catholics, Anglicans, Christians and Jews and Muslims about a lot of
:52:41. > :52:46.those questions. The more we can get to a position where those
:52:46. > :52:50.within religious faiths who are arguing for principles of equality
:52:50. > :52:54.and justice and proper human treatment, the better that will be
:52:54. > :52:58.the society and the better that will be full religions. In this
:52:58. > :53:01.country, we have an established religion, so I would like to see
:53:01. > :53:09.the Church of England doing that by making progress in terms of women
:53:09. > :53:15.bishops and the Church's attitude to gay men. Let me correct Melanie.
:53:15. > :53:22.The Catholic Church does not stop married priests. In my parish, we
:53:22. > :53:26.have a married priest and by and Catholic. There is a set of the
:53:26. > :53:35.Catholic Church which does allow married priests. Get your facts
:53:35. > :53:41.right. It is not just the Catholic Church which has had these problems.
:53:41. > :53:48.It is important that we recognise that the Catholic Church is trying
:53:48. > :53:55.to overcome the problems. In my parish, we have a very strong child
:53:55. > :54:00.protection policy. Everyone who has any dealings with children or
:54:00. > :54:06.vulnerable adults has to go through all the checks and is monitored. So
:54:06. > :54:14.the Church is trying. There is something coming up now with the
:54:14. > :54:21.conclave in Rome where, if the right person is appointed, we could
:54:21. > :54:26.see quite a few changes in the church, and I hope we do. Bob Crow.
:54:26. > :54:30.Personally, I am atheist myself. I respect people's religion and the
:54:30. > :54:37.great work that religious people do. I couldn't care less if people were
:54:37. > :54:42.in the Catholic, Jewish, Muslim faith. As long as it is a religion
:54:42. > :54:46.of love, looking after their neighbour, and not doing harm. You
:54:46. > :54:51.can't say because there have been a few bad eggs in one particular
:54:51. > :54:54.religion that the whole religion is wrong. Are we saying because of the
:54:55. > :55:02.Savile row that the whole BBC of wrong, or because of the phone
:55:02. > :55:06.hacking row but all newspaper journalists are wrong? We should
:55:06. > :55:10.respect people if they are religious, respect the work they do
:55:10. > :55:20.and not pull them down for the vast number of people in the religious
:55:20. > :55:20.
:55:20. > :55:30.work that be fantastic work on behalf of the community. The person
:55:30. > :55:33.on the side? What makes it worse is that it seems to be the first
:55:33. > :55:39.instinct of the cardinal and other people to deny it. And then in a
:55:39. > :55:44.few days they say oh, actually, I did. Surely it would be better to
:55:44. > :55:47.come clean straightaway and say sorry and put their hand up. It
:55:47. > :55:52.makes them look so shallow if they deny everything and then in a few
:55:52. > :56:01.days' time, because they think it is going to come out anyway, they
:56:01. > :56:05.had better now say they did it. Diane Jones. I feel very sad to
:56:05. > :56:09.both the Anglican and Catholic Church. There is this battleground
:56:09. > :56:15.developing over and over again between the traditionalists and the
:56:15. > :56:19.modernisers. I wish that battle was not under way. I wish the scandals
:56:19. > :56:26.were not happening. When you put this in the context of declining
:56:26. > :56:31.church numbers, it is not helping a key pillar, no matter what the
:56:31. > :56:38.faith is, a key pillar of what holds a good society together. So I
:56:38. > :56:42.just feel sad. I agree with the point you are making. Why did it
:56:42. > :56:48.have to be drawn out in the way it was with the car at -- Catholic
:56:48. > :56:52.cardinal in Scotland? I feel for him and anybody involved in this.
:56:52. > :56:59.The battle is unnecessary and I would rather see something move on.
:56:59. > :57:02.She only it is better to be honest. Ken Clarke? We are all torrent of
:57:02. > :57:10.religions and everybody is entitled to choose how conservative or
:57:10. > :57:20.Liberal they are on these things. I don't think one should lay it down.
:57:20. > :57:20.
:57:20. > :57:23.All the great religions of have to decide how far they have religious
:57:23. > :57:28.precepts and how far they must make sure they are not just stuck in
:57:28. > :57:33.cultural norms acquired from some time ago and how far they should
:57:33. > :57:38.change. The Catholics and Anglicans, with their problems over women
:57:38. > :57:43.priests, and the Muslims do have problems over the role of women,
:57:43. > :57:53.how much is God-given and what is just perhaps these attitudes that
:57:53. > :57:54.
:57:54. > :57:59.we should not have. Even ultra Orthodox Jews would have a married
:57:59. > :58:02.woman shave her hair off or put away gone. All those communities
:58:02. > :58:05.are capable of having an intelligent discussion about what
:58:05. > :58:15.their religion requires and what should be changed in the modern
:58:15. > :58:18.
:58:18. > :58:22.world. Time is up, I'm afraid. We plan to be in Cardiff next week. We
:58:22. > :58:26.have Francis Maude for the Tories on the panel, Chuka Umunna for
:58:26. > :58:31.Labour and Theo Paphitis, the businessman. The week after, we
:58:31. > :58:40.will be in York, the day after the Budget. To come on the programme,