1:38:48 > 1:38:50Tonight, we're in Finchley, the North London constituency
1:38:50 > 1:38:53represented by Margaret Thatcher for 33 years.
1:38:53 > 1:38:54Welcome to Question Time.
1:39:02 > 1:39:05And good evening to you at home. Good evening to our audience here,
1:39:05 > 1:39:08some of whom weren't born when Mrs Thatcher left office.
1:39:08 > 1:39:10And to our panel, all of whom played prominent roles,
1:39:10 > 1:39:12one way or another, throughout that era.
1:39:12 > 1:39:14Ken Clarke, who became a minister
1:39:14 > 1:39:16in the first '79 Conservative government.
1:39:16 > 1:39:17Still sits in the Cabinet today.
1:39:17 > 1:39:21Before becoming an MP, Labour's former Home Secretary,
1:39:21 > 1:39:24David Blunkett, led Sheffield Council in the 1980s,
1:39:24 > 1:39:26when the red flag was flown over the town hall.
1:39:26 > 1:39:30The former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Ming Campbell,
1:39:30 > 1:39:32first elected to Parliament in 1987.
1:39:32 > 1:39:33The Guardian columnist
1:39:33 > 1:39:36and long-time critic on the left, Polly Toynbee,
1:39:36 > 1:39:39and Charles Moore, who was editor of the Daily Telegraph
1:39:39 > 1:39:42and publishes his authorised biography of Lady Thatcher
1:39:42 > 1:39:44the week after next.
1:39:46 > 1:39:48APPLAUSE
1:39:59 > 1:40:01And needless to say, one of the reasons we're in Finchley
1:40:01 > 1:40:03is because it was her constituency,
1:40:03 > 1:40:06and what we're going to talk about largely tonight
1:40:06 > 1:40:07is the Thatcher legacy
1:40:07 > 1:40:10and what these people here on the panel, who lived through it,
1:40:10 > 1:40:12think of it and what you, the audience, think of it.
1:40:12 > 1:40:15And the first question's from Stephen Adams, please.
1:40:15 > 1:40:17What would the country be like now
1:40:17 > 1:40:21if Mrs Thatcher had not been chosen as Conservative party leader in 1975?
1:40:21 > 1:40:23OK, Ken Clarke.
1:40:23 > 1:40:25Er, well, it would have postponed, I think,
1:40:25 > 1:40:27the inevitable change that had to come.
1:40:27 > 1:40:30We were becoming a laughing stock in the 1970s.
1:40:30 > 1:40:34We went on after 1975 to become a ridiculous laughing stock.
1:40:34 > 1:40:36We had a winter where everybody went on strike
1:40:36 > 1:40:38against everybody else.
1:40:38 > 1:40:40We were propping up all kinds
1:40:40 > 1:40:41of uncompetitive industries,
1:40:41 > 1:40:43we were pouring money down the drain,
1:40:43 > 1:40:46and trying to represent change, really.
1:40:46 > 1:40:49It had to happen. I mean, it couldn't possibly go on.
1:40:49 > 1:40:52Three prime ministers had failed to change it, really.
1:40:52 > 1:40:55Heath, Wilson, and Callaghan.
1:40:55 > 1:40:57And, you know, I was in the Heath government, actually,
1:40:57 > 1:40:59so we tried and failed.
1:40:59 > 1:41:03So all that happened would have been worse eventually.
1:41:03 > 1:41:05Probably even more bitter,
1:41:05 > 1:41:08if we hadn't had somebody in 1979 with the courage to take it on.
1:41:08 > 1:41:12APPLAUSE
1:41:12 > 1:41:15Did it have to be of the severity that it was?
1:41:15 > 1:41:17Could it have been done in a different way
1:41:17 > 1:41:19and achieved the same result?
1:41:19 > 1:41:23Well, the severity was mainly caused by the severity of our opponents.
1:41:23 > 1:41:25I mean, the idea...
1:41:25 > 1:41:27What we've had in the last week
1:41:27 > 1:41:29has been journalism and contemporary politics.
1:41:29 > 1:41:30One day, we will get HISTORY,
1:41:30 > 1:41:33which is altogether more nuanced and complicated...
1:41:33 > 1:41:34- CHARLES MOORE:- In about two weeks!
1:41:34 > 1:41:37Well, the editor of the Daily Telegraph
1:41:37 > 1:41:40says his biography is going to be history. We shall see!
1:41:40 > 1:41:41The...er...
1:41:41 > 1:41:46We took on a powerful and embittered left opposition,
1:41:46 > 1:41:49who turned everything into a fantastic struggle,
1:41:49 > 1:41:55so the change and the demise of things that had no future
1:41:55 > 1:41:59in the most old-fashioned economy in the big countries in Western Europe
1:41:59 > 1:42:04would have been changed more easily if we hadn't had manic opposition.
1:42:04 > 1:42:07I mean, they spent their life wrecking pay policies,
1:42:07 > 1:42:09which both parties had used,
1:42:09 > 1:42:11wrongly, actually, as the weapon against inflation,
1:42:11 > 1:42:13and the sole aim of these trade unions
1:42:13 > 1:42:15was to break the pay policies.
1:42:15 > 1:42:18To show that their members were going to do better
1:42:18 > 1:42:19than anybody else,
1:42:19 > 1:42:23To use the ultimate in quite violent political force sometimes
1:42:23 > 1:42:26to actually stop the government doing what it wanted to.
1:42:26 > 1:42:29And so, there was bitterness in the '80s. I regret it.
1:42:29 > 1:42:31I remember I went through picket lines,
1:42:31 > 1:42:34it wasn't safe for a Tory to go to a university...
1:42:34 > 1:42:36They were very, very fraught times.
1:42:36 > 1:42:39I think people forget how tense things were.
1:42:39 > 1:42:43But the idea that this was all somehow Mrs Thatcher,
1:42:43 > 1:42:45when the government contained the most awful wets,
1:42:45 > 1:42:48like Willie Whitelaw and Douglas Hurd, and me...
1:42:48 > 1:42:51- LAUGHTER - ..and all these people, is nonsense.
1:42:51 > 1:42:54- It was a bitter, bitter time. - We'll stop you there,
1:42:54 > 1:42:56as we've got plenty to talk about. David Blunkett.
1:42:56 > 1:43:02Well, would Jim Callaghan have been the Prime Minister through '79?
1:43:02 > 1:43:04Would Edward Heath have won?
1:43:04 > 1:43:06I don't know.
1:43:06 > 1:43:08I know that my party was totally divided.
1:43:08 > 1:43:12That we were drifting, that we'd lost the intellectual high ground.
1:43:12 > 1:43:14But we'd discovered North Sea Oil.
1:43:14 > 1:43:16We were prepared to use it
1:43:16 > 1:43:20to invest in keeping people and putting people into work.
1:43:20 > 1:43:23We would not have had the mass unemployment of 3.5 million people,
1:43:23 > 1:43:26many of whom were put on Incapacity Benefit,
1:43:26 > 1:43:30and the debate we're having about welfare today
1:43:30 > 1:43:32goes right back to 1979 and onwards,
1:43:32 > 1:43:36when we put people out of work. APPLAUSE
1:43:38 > 1:43:40Would we have needed to sort ourselves out
1:43:40 > 1:43:42in terms of a global economy? Yes, we would.
1:43:42 > 1:43:45The necessity of economic survival would have made us
1:43:45 > 1:43:49face up to some of the big challenges of modernity and modernisation.
1:43:49 > 1:43:53But we would also have had a more humane Britain,
1:43:53 > 1:43:56where we would have had a coal industry with clean coal.
1:43:56 > 1:43:58We would be using it today,
1:43:58 > 1:44:01in terms of the energy problems that we've got.
1:44:01 > 1:44:06We would have invested in the renewal of heavy industry.
1:44:06 > 1:44:08In my city, we lost 50,000 jobs,
1:44:08 > 1:44:10engineering and steel jobs,
1:44:10 > 1:44:11high-quality craft jobs,
1:44:11 > 1:44:15within three years of me becoming leader of the council.
1:44:15 > 1:44:18We were struggling to try and hold the city together.
1:44:18 > 1:44:21Those things would have been different.
1:44:21 > 1:44:24So, yes, we may not have modernised as quickly,
1:44:24 > 1:44:28we may not have had the harsh reality of economic change that was coming,
1:44:28 > 1:44:30and could have been done
1:44:30 > 1:44:33with a planned and more moderate way forward,
1:44:33 > 1:44:36but we would have certainly had a Britain
1:44:36 > 1:44:39that had invested its resources in human beings,
1:44:39 > 1:44:41rather than in an ideology
1:44:41 > 1:44:44that destroyed and divided a city like mine.
1:44:44 > 1:44:47APPLAUSE
1:44:47 > 1:44:49Man there. You, sir.
1:44:49 > 1:44:51It's refreshing when one surprises oneself,
1:44:51 > 1:44:54and one agrees with one's political foe.
1:44:54 > 1:44:56Now, I agree with Kenneth Clarke here,
1:44:56 > 1:44:57and I disagree with David Blunkett,
1:44:57 > 1:45:02because I think that he's imagining a past that just didn't exist.
1:45:02 > 1:45:05In 1978, Barbara Castle put forward In Place of Strife...
1:45:05 > 1:45:06BLUNKETT: '68.
1:45:06 > 1:45:07..'68, I apologise.
1:45:07 > 1:45:11Put forward In Place of Strife, and that was never adopted.
1:45:11 > 1:45:12It never went forward,
1:45:12 > 1:45:15and it was never that panacea that you describe, David Blunkett,
1:45:15 > 1:45:18and those problems did exist in 1979,
1:45:18 > 1:45:20and I think Margaret Thatcher was brave enough
1:45:20 > 1:45:24to adopt and to tackle those. I am not a Tory.
1:45:24 > 1:45:28APPLAUSE
1:45:28 > 1:45:29Just up there, yes. In the dark blue.
1:45:29 > 1:45:32Wages, as a percentage of GDP, I think,
1:45:32 > 1:45:34were the highest they'd ever been in 1975,
1:45:34 > 1:45:36and they've only fallen since,
1:45:36 > 1:45:39which means that growth has gone to people who own businesses,
1:45:39 > 1:45:40not people that work for businesses.
1:45:40 > 1:45:44All right. And the man there, bang in the centre there. You, sir.
1:45:44 > 1:45:46The same problems were being experienced
1:45:46 > 1:45:48in all other European countries.
1:45:48 > 1:45:51France and Germany were getting rid of their coal industries.
1:45:51 > 1:45:53If we'd had somebody in power who believed in consensus,
1:45:53 > 1:45:55rather than confrontation,
1:45:55 > 1:45:57we'd be in a far better place as a country nowadays.
1:45:57 > 1:46:01- APPLAUSE - Charles Moore.
1:46:01 > 1:46:03What would the country be like now, is the question,
1:46:03 > 1:46:05if Mrs Thatcher hadn't been chosen as leader?
1:46:05 > 1:46:08Perhaps I can just answer the question by coming at it
1:46:08 > 1:46:10in a today way, and go back.
1:46:10 > 1:46:14I'm very interested, because of writing my book,
1:46:14 > 1:46:17of all these people coming to me and asking about her
1:46:17 > 1:46:19from all over the world.
1:46:19 > 1:46:20I think that's very, very important.
1:46:20 > 1:46:22We tend to look at it in a very British way.
1:46:22 > 1:46:24There is nobody since Churchill
1:46:24 > 1:46:27that the West of the world is more interested in.
1:46:27 > 1:46:30And today, I've had call after call, interview after interview,
1:46:30 > 1:46:33with people, particularly from Eastern Europe,
1:46:33 > 1:46:34but from all over the world
1:46:34 > 1:46:38who are absolutely fascinated by what she did and what she stood for.
1:46:38 > 1:46:40And what they're looking for,
1:46:40 > 1:46:44and which I think they found in her, whether they liked her or not,
1:46:44 > 1:46:48is some sense of somebody who says, "What's wrong? What is wrong?
1:46:48 > 1:46:50"Let's try and get at what's wrong,
1:46:50 > 1:46:54"and let's find a way of putting it right."
1:46:54 > 1:46:57And that's what she unquestionably did,
1:46:57 > 1:47:00whether people all agree about whether she was right in her way.
1:47:00 > 1:47:03That's a real leadership capacity.
1:47:03 > 1:47:07It's something that changes the whole of politics.
1:47:07 > 1:47:10It hardly ever happens, but it happened with her.
1:47:10 > 1:47:13APPLAUSE
1:47:15 > 1:47:17You sir, at the back, there. Yes?
1:47:17 > 1:47:20Yeah, I think I very much agree with your point, and also with Ken.
1:47:20 > 1:47:23Manufacturing was in decline, and that was inevitable.
1:47:23 > 1:47:25I think the fact that Margaret Thatcher
1:47:25 > 1:47:28really helped to change and control how our country was going,
1:47:28 > 1:47:31and the direction it was going, has really made us the strong,
1:47:31 > 1:47:35world global player that we are today in the services industry,
1:47:35 > 1:47:38and that was all sparked, I think, from Thatcher's government.
1:47:38 > 1:47:41APPLAUSE
1:47:41 > 1:47:42I'm coming to you, Polly.
1:47:42 > 1:47:45David Blunkett just said it wasn't inevitable.
1:47:45 > 1:47:48It wasn't, because Germany took a different path.
1:47:48 > 1:47:52It wasn't inevitable, because much of Europe faced the same problems.
1:47:52 > 1:47:54Her legacy has left us
1:47:54 > 1:47:57with a country that is far more riven, far more divided,
1:47:57 > 1:48:00far more unequal than most of the rest of Europe,
1:48:00 > 1:48:02who also faced those problems.
1:48:02 > 1:48:04One of the myths, for instance,
1:48:04 > 1:48:07is how brilliantly she dealt with inflation, which is true.
1:48:07 > 1:48:10Inflation was the reason why there were all those strikes.
1:48:10 > 1:48:13All of those unions were trying to keep their wages up
1:48:13 > 1:48:16with the soaring inflation. Terrifying.
1:48:16 > 1:48:1818%, it was running at in 1980.
1:48:18 > 1:48:21It plummeted to 2% by 1986.
1:48:21 > 1:48:24"Terrific," people say, "Look what she did."
1:48:24 > 1:48:27But look across the Channel, which we rarely do,
1:48:27 > 1:48:30in France, a socialist government achieved exactly the same.
1:48:30 > 1:48:33Exactly the same drop in inflation.
1:48:33 > 1:48:37Absolutely crucial to do, but they did it without the cruelty.
1:48:37 > 1:48:39They did it without destroying whole communities,
1:48:39 > 1:48:44without endemic unemployment, from which we still suffer now.
1:48:44 > 1:48:45And this government is actually
1:48:45 > 1:48:48trying to take away the props even from that.
1:48:48 > 1:48:51If you look at the inequality she left behind,
1:48:51 > 1:48:53when she came into power,
1:48:53 > 1:48:55one in seven children in this country were poor.
1:48:55 > 1:48:58When she left, it was one in three,
1:48:58 > 1:49:00and it's scarcely got better since then.
1:49:00 > 1:49:04Since then, we have become a far more deeply divided nation,
1:49:04 > 1:49:05far harder to put together again.
1:49:05 > 1:49:09APPLAUSE
1:49:12 > 1:49:14I agree that bitterness was not inevitable.
1:49:14 > 1:49:16It would have been much preferable...
1:49:16 > 1:49:19But Heath had tried consensus, Wilson had tried consensus,
1:49:19 > 1:49:22Callaghan tried consensus more than either of them.
1:49:22 > 1:49:25Callaghan had killed off Wilson's attempts at trade union reform,
1:49:25 > 1:49:28believed they would follow up his pay policy,
1:49:28 > 1:49:30and they destroyed him
1:49:30 > 1:49:32with the most ferocious winter of industrial action
1:49:32 > 1:49:34that we had experienced. It was not possible.
1:49:34 > 1:49:38And it's no good reading today's politics into it.
1:49:38 > 1:49:41If you look at what we did, we were hugely unpopular by 1981,
1:49:41 > 1:49:44because the crisis we took over was terrible. We didn't cut welfare.
1:49:44 > 1:49:47Mrs Thatcher never cut public spending on public services.
1:49:47 > 1:49:51- BLUNKETT:- She did! - We saved money by getting rid of...
1:49:51 > 1:49:52She cut local government!
1:49:52 > 1:49:53- She didn't.- She did, Ken.
1:49:53 > 1:49:57She cut 40% of the budget for Sheffield City Council.
1:49:57 > 1:50:00Sheffield... We'll get onto local government spending if you wish.
1:50:00 > 1:50:03Sheffield City Council was a sort of Marxist retreat, then.
1:50:03 > 1:50:05LAUGHTER They've changed a lot, David,
1:50:05 > 1:50:06from where you were.
1:50:06 > 1:50:09We saved money by getting rid of loss-making industries
1:50:09 > 1:50:12we were subsidising. My first job...
1:50:12 > 1:50:14Which would have been subsidised.
1:50:14 > 1:50:16..was privatised, British Road Services,
1:50:16 > 1:50:18which owned a third of the lorries in the country,
1:50:18 > 1:50:21including Pickfords, which was losing money...
1:50:21 > 1:50:24But you haven't addressed what Polly Toynbee was saying...
1:50:24 > 1:50:26..and being subsidised by the rest of the economy.
1:50:26 > 1:50:29But you haven't addressed what Polly was saying,
1:50:29 > 1:50:30which is France got rid of inflation
1:50:30 > 1:50:32exactly the same, to exactly the same extent,
1:50:32 > 1:50:35without doing it with a technique that damaged France.
1:50:35 > 1:50:37But France had a different political structure...
1:50:37 > 1:50:39- POLLY:- It had a left-wing government.
1:50:39 > 1:50:42It had a centre-left government,
1:50:42 > 1:50:44which did things that the left,
1:50:44 > 1:50:47the real power in the country, Jack Jones, Huey Scanlon,
1:50:47 > 1:50:50would not allow the left-of-centre Labour Party to do.
1:50:50 > 1:50:52Ming, I'll come to you in just a second.
1:50:52 > 1:50:55Man up there, on the gangway. You, sir. Yes.
1:50:55 > 1:50:59Margaret Thatcher, she operated a one-man, or one-woman government.
1:50:59 > 1:51:00Was she really a leader,
1:51:00 > 1:51:03or a dictator hiding behind the name tag of a leader?
1:51:03 > 1:51:06Oh, that's just a Spitting Image parody. She changed so much.
1:51:06 > 1:51:09She loved political rows. I had a very robust relationship with her.
1:51:09 > 1:51:11Yeah, but she imposes her thoughts...she didn't take on board
1:51:11 > 1:51:14any suggestions from her fellow colleagues or ministers.
1:51:14 > 1:51:15She took a lot of them.
1:51:15 > 1:51:18She wasn't in favour of the health reforms I did when I started.
1:51:18 > 1:51:19She wanted to do it a different way.
1:51:19 > 1:51:22She wanted to scrap the health reforms at one stage.
1:51:22 > 1:51:24You could have a serious argument with Margaret Thatcher,
1:51:24 > 1:51:27so long as you knew what you were talking about.
1:51:27 > 1:51:29So long as she thought you believed it.
1:51:29 > 1:51:31So long as you understood the detail,
1:51:31 > 1:51:33because she was dreadful on the detail.
1:51:33 > 1:51:35She'd take you apart if you give her generalised rubbish
1:51:35 > 1:51:37about what you were trying to do.
1:51:37 > 1:51:39She was interested in the detail.
1:51:39 > 1:51:41But all this stuff about this harridan...
1:51:41 > 1:51:44She did speak 50% of the time, and she interrupted you,
1:51:44 > 1:51:46but I speak too long, and I interrupt...
1:51:46 > 1:51:47Ming Campbell.
1:51:47 > 1:51:49Ming Campbell, thank you, Ken.
1:51:49 > 1:51:51She ran a very collective government.
1:51:51 > 1:51:54Well, up to now, it's been an exchange of opinion.
1:51:54 > 1:51:56Let's throw some facts in, if we may.
1:51:56 > 1:51:59Margaret Thatcher won three consecutive elections.
1:51:59 > 1:52:02And the only reason she won three consecutive elections
1:52:02 > 1:52:05was because people believed, rightly or wrongly,
1:52:05 > 1:52:07dictator or a one-man band
1:52:07 > 1:52:09or whatever you may wish to characterise her,
1:52:09 > 1:52:12that she was doing the right thing by the country.
1:52:12 > 1:52:14Otherwise, they'd have voted her out. Now...
1:52:14 > 1:52:17APPLAUSE
1:52:21 > 1:52:25Now, I spent most of my time opposing these policies,
1:52:25 > 1:52:28but the fact is, my opposition was much less attractive
1:52:28 > 1:52:30than the policies themselves.
1:52:30 > 1:52:33I want to go back to a point which I think Ken Clarke made.
1:52:33 > 1:52:37And it's... People forget just how awful it was
1:52:37 > 1:52:39during the Winter Of Discontent.
1:52:39 > 1:52:41Bodies went unburied.
1:52:41 > 1:52:44People went to bed at night wondering if the gas
1:52:44 > 1:52:47or the electricity would still be on in the morning.
1:52:47 > 1:52:52The whole fabric of our society had reached a point at which
1:52:52 > 1:52:55it might simply crumble away.
1:52:55 > 1:52:59Now, I happen to believe that whoever was elected in 1979,
1:52:59 > 1:53:02and in fact, if Jim Callaghan had gone to the country
1:53:02 > 1:53:06in Autumn of 1978, instead of putting it off to the spring,
1:53:06 > 1:53:10he wouldn't have had to undergo the Winter Of Discontent,
1:53:10 > 1:53:12and he might well have won the election.
1:53:12 > 1:53:15But whoever came in at the end of that most terrible period
1:53:15 > 1:53:17was going to have to do something.
1:53:17 > 1:53:20Yeah, but would they have done what Mrs Thatcher did?
1:53:20 > 1:53:23Well, the policies, I think, were self-evident.
1:53:23 > 1:53:27You couldn't continue putting money into industries
1:53:27 > 1:53:29which simply weren't making money.
1:53:29 > 1:53:31So you disagree with what Polly was saying?
1:53:31 > 1:53:33- Just to get it right.- Yes, I do.
1:53:33 > 1:53:35Some of these industries,
1:53:35 > 1:53:38you might as well have stood in the middle of the town square
1:53:38 > 1:53:39and set fire to £5 notes.
1:53:39 > 1:53:42- POLLY:- Ming, a lot of people would agree with you.
1:53:42 > 1:53:44A lot of people would agree with you...
1:53:44 > 1:53:46Let me just finish, because I want to make this point.
1:53:46 > 1:53:49If you've got the right policy, you must implement it.
1:53:49 > 1:53:52But if you have the right policy and you're going to implement it,
1:53:52 > 1:53:56you must be clear about what the personal consequences
1:53:56 > 1:54:00are going to be for the people who are affected by it.
1:54:00 > 1:54:04And that is where my criticism of Mrs Thatcher arises.
1:54:04 > 1:54:06For this reason -
1:54:06 > 1:54:10I don't think she ever properly understood the kind of impact
1:54:10 > 1:54:13it would have on mining communities, on Sheffield, places like that.
1:54:13 > 1:54:17If she had, and there had been policies of mitigation,
1:54:17 > 1:54:21using the riches of North Sea oil for further investment,
1:54:21 > 1:54:26then I think she would perhaps have won even a fourth general election.
1:54:26 > 1:54:30All right. "Never understood," Charles Moore, is what Ming says.
1:54:30 > 1:54:33Well, I think Ming made some very good points.
1:54:33 > 1:54:35I want to take up the divided nation idea,
1:54:35 > 1:54:38which Polly Toynbee says Mrs Thatcher has bequeathed us.
1:54:38 > 1:54:41I think it's a key point and it's sort of what Ming was saying,
1:54:41 > 1:54:45that she came in because we already were a divided nation.
1:54:45 > 1:54:50People were very, very bitter because of what had happened in the 1970s.
1:54:50 > 1:54:52And it was... That's why...
1:54:52 > 1:54:54People laugh about the Saint Francis of Assisi speech,
1:54:54 > 1:54:58prayer that she quoted, but that's why she quoted it.
1:54:58 > 1:55:01And, of course, because she had very difficult things to do,
1:55:01 > 1:55:03there was a lot of conflict.
1:55:03 > 1:55:06But I question whether we are left with a divided nation because of her.
1:55:06 > 1:55:09I think, in many ways, it's a more united one.
1:55:09 > 1:55:11And I'll give you a statistic.
1:55:11 > 1:55:17In 1979, there were 29 million working days lost to strikes.
1:55:17 > 1:55:20That is evidence of a divided nation.
1:55:20 > 1:55:21In 1990, there were fewer than
1:55:21 > 1:55:24two million working days lost to strikes.
1:55:24 > 1:55:28We had industrial peace. That's peace, that's not division.
1:55:28 > 1:55:31And, similarly, when Mrs Thatcher became prime minister,
1:55:31 > 1:55:35the nearest Communist country was 500 miles from this country
1:55:35 > 1:55:37and now it's 5,000 miles from this country
1:55:37 > 1:55:39and there hardly are any of them left.
1:55:39 > 1:55:43And Europe was divided, a divided continent,
1:55:43 > 1:55:44because of the Iron Curtain.
1:55:44 > 1:55:48And Mrs Thatcher was one of the leading three people to change that.
1:55:48 > 1:55:50That is not a legacy of division.
1:55:50 > 1:55:53She actually brought a lot of unity and a lot of harmony
1:55:53 > 1:55:56- and people must remember that in their judgements.- OK.
1:55:57 > 1:56:01The woman there and then I will go up to you. Yes, you first.
1:56:03 > 1:56:07Not to sort of...underplay the devastation that...
1:56:07 > 1:56:10you know, that must've... From the winter fuel strike -
1:56:10 > 1:56:15I wasn't there, but I can imagine it was a horrible, depressing time -
1:56:15 > 1:56:17but the reason people go on riots,
1:56:17 > 1:56:20I know that there were numerous riots through the '80s,
1:56:20 > 1:56:24and the reason that people strike and take such extreme action,
1:56:24 > 1:56:29which affects them too, is because often these are people that feel
1:56:29 > 1:56:34they have no other outlet to voice their opinions, so rather than...
1:56:34 > 1:56:37No, no, that wasn't why. It may be true nowadays.
1:56:37 > 1:56:39In those days, you went on strike
1:56:39 > 1:56:41because you got more money once you went on strike,
1:56:41 > 1:56:43the way that they were settled.
1:56:43 > 1:56:46And if you didn't go on strike, your neighbour would go on strike
1:56:46 > 1:56:50- and he'd get more money than you. - But, Ken, you cannot think...
1:56:50 > 1:56:51APPLAUSE
1:56:51 > 1:56:54Wait. Let me bring in David Blunkett again.
1:56:54 > 1:56:57And remember what Ken said about "manic opposition"
1:56:57 > 1:57:01- that Mrs Thatcher faced from the trade unions.- Well...she did.
1:57:01 > 1:57:04And the divide was because of
1:57:04 > 1:57:07the very, very clear difference of ideology that existed.
1:57:07 > 1:57:10I'm not defending the Winter Of Discontent.
1:57:10 > 1:57:14I was Chair of Social Services at the time in Sheffield,
1:57:14 > 1:57:16just before taking on the leadership,
1:57:16 > 1:57:18and we were dealing with the consequences
1:57:18 > 1:57:20of the harm that was caused.
1:57:20 > 1:57:22So I'm not wanting to go back to that era.
1:57:22 > 1:57:26I'm answering the question of how it might have been different
1:57:26 > 1:57:28and, you know, let's just take a deep breath.
1:57:28 > 1:57:33If we heard now the words that she used, Charles,
1:57:33 > 1:57:37"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony,"
1:57:37 > 1:57:40and we saw what happened in those years afterwards...
1:57:40 > 1:57:44Don't take my word for it, because in the end, yes,
1:57:44 > 1:57:46the British people didn't have the chance to defeat,
1:57:46 > 1:57:49the Labour Party failed to defeat her, but the people who decided
1:57:49 > 1:57:53in the end that she wasn't for them was the Tory party.
1:57:53 > 1:57:56They actually got rid of Margaret Thatcher
1:57:56 > 1:57:59and if anybody tells you that she's a saint
1:57:59 > 1:58:00and she's this most wonderful woman,
1:58:00 > 1:58:05Ken, why, in 1990, did the Tory party decided to get rid of her?
1:58:05 > 1:58:11Well, there's a very simple answer. I can answer for them.
1:58:11 > 1:58:12You were the Brutus.
1:58:12 > 1:58:15You were the Brutus that wielded the knife when the time came.
1:58:15 > 1:58:19- Because she'd just failed to win... - Ken was the man who did it.
1:58:19 > 1:58:21And now, now we hear...
1:58:24 > 1:58:27I will compliment you by answering this question and say,
1:58:27 > 1:58:30if someone like Ken had become leader instead of Margaret Thatcher,
1:58:30 > 1:58:32I think the history would've been very different.
1:58:32 > 1:58:35I think Callaghan was due to lose, had to lose
1:58:35 > 1:58:39once they've rejected In Place Of Strife, which was Callaghan's fault.
1:58:39 > 1:58:42Labour had failed to reform the trade unions
1:58:42 > 1:58:47in a civilised and European way, instead of which it led to disaster.
1:58:47 > 1:58:50- Well...- If someone like you had taken over...- Let me answer!
1:58:50 > 1:58:54Mrs Thatcher... Let me remind people of what Mrs Thatcher said about you.
1:58:54 > 1:58:56"I simply don't understand how Ken could lead
1:58:56 > 1:59:00"today's Conservative party to anything other than disaster."
1:59:00 > 1:59:02- LAUGHTER - That's what she said about you.
1:59:02 > 1:59:04That was many years in.
1:59:04 > 1:59:07I was with her from the moment she went in the front benches
1:59:07 > 1:59:08as a Shadow Minister, all the way to the end,
1:59:08 > 1:59:10and all she ever did was promote me.
1:59:10 > 1:59:11That was years after she'd gone.
1:59:11 > 1:59:14Let me answer the two bits of it, as briefly as I can.
1:59:14 > 1:59:19Firstly, why was it so busy? It was our opponents, largely.
1:59:19 > 1:59:22When we came in... We were very unpopular by 1981.
1:59:22 > 1:59:26The first things we did were raise taxation.
1:59:26 > 1:59:28We did not cut welfare
1:59:28 > 1:59:30and, actually, we ended exchange controls.
1:59:30 > 1:59:34And then we started trying to actually reform
1:59:34 > 1:59:37this amazing sort of client state,
1:59:37 > 1:59:41which was sucking the life out of the rest of the economy
1:59:41 > 1:59:46into badly-run car companies or totally out-of-date car industry.
1:59:46 > 1:59:49And that was how we started.
1:59:49 > 1:59:51By 1983, the trade unions had taken our opponents
1:59:51 > 1:59:54and we were fighting Michael Foot and the Labour Party,
1:59:54 > 1:59:57whose policy was to leave NATO,
1:59:57 > 1:59:59to become neutral in the Cold War,
1:59:59 > 2:00:01to leave the European Union,
2:00:01 > 2:00:04and to nationalise more of the commanding heights of the economy.
2:00:04 > 2:00:06What heights there'd have been
2:00:06 > 2:00:08if they'd nationalised them, I have no idea.
2:00:08 > 2:00:12So the idea that the bitterness came from people like me
2:00:12 > 2:00:16and Jim Prior and Geoffrey Howe and Willie Whitelaw,
2:00:16 > 2:00:19all the people who were around Margaret...
2:00:19 > 2:00:21The key people were Nigel Lawson and Geoffrey Howe.
2:00:21 > 2:00:24But the idea that we were injecting a bitterness,
2:00:24 > 2:00:28which is not to do with politics, is one of the left-wing myths.
2:00:28 > 2:00:31- You were the wets.- I think you've made that point.- You were the wets.
2:00:31 > 2:00:36This was early Thatcher, that Ken's describing. Later Thatcher...
2:00:36 > 2:00:39later Thatcher was something rather different.
2:00:39 > 2:00:43When it came to what came, in turn, to be called the poll tax,
2:00:43 > 2:00:46I mean, the lady wasn't for turning, to use her own phrase.
2:00:46 > 2:00:50In spite of the fact that the evidence against it was overwhelming,
2:00:50 > 2:00:54in spite of the fact that popular opinion was heavily against it,
2:00:54 > 2:00:56and in spite of the fact that many Conservative MPs,
2:00:56 > 2:00:58including perhaps the member for Rushcliffe,
2:00:58 > 2:01:01were very concerned that if the poll tax didn't go,
2:01:01 > 2:01:02so too would their seats!
2:01:02 > 2:01:05Let me just say, just a reminder if you're watching at home,
2:01:05 > 2:01:07you can join in this debate, of course, as ever,
2:01:07 > 2:01:08by texting or on Twitter.
2:01:08 > 2:01:12Our hashtag is #bbcqt and you can follow us, @BBCQuestionTime.
2:01:12 > 2:01:15Text comments to 83981.
2:01:15 > 2:01:17Press the red button to see what others are saying.
2:01:17 > 2:01:19You, sir, in the front row here. Yes.
2:01:19 > 2:01:23Ming told us that she won over the country in three general elections,
2:01:23 > 2:01:25but she really didn't. In the '97 election...
2:01:25 > 2:01:30Sorry, in the '79 election, the Tories got 13,600,000 votes.
2:01:30 > 2:01:32Next election, it was 13 million.
2:01:32 > 2:01:36And the next election, it was 13,700,000.
2:01:36 > 2:01:38It barely fluctuated from before she took office.
2:01:38 > 2:01:41They almost got the same number of votes in the past election.
2:01:41 > 2:01:44- They still got the largest number of votes.- We didn't win really(!)
2:01:44 > 2:01:46The reason why she won those elections
2:01:46 > 2:01:49is because the opposition was completely divided
2:01:49 > 2:01:50and crumbling and incompetent.
2:01:50 > 2:01:52She didn't win people over to her cause.
2:01:52 > 2:01:53I was part of that opposition
2:01:53 > 2:01:56but it wasn't her fault that we were crumbling.
2:01:56 > 2:01:57It wasn't her fault.
2:01:57 > 2:01:58No, not at all.
2:01:58 > 2:02:00APPLAUSE
2:02:03 > 2:02:05Can we take his point?
2:02:05 > 2:02:09His point is she didn't gain ground, it was you that kept losing it.
2:02:09 > 2:02:12She won elections by destroying the opposition.
2:02:12 > 2:02:14When we talk about the history...
2:02:14 > 2:02:18- She achieved sufficient majorities... - Absolutely.- ..to form a government.
2:02:18 > 2:02:20Now, you don't have to persuade me
2:02:20 > 2:02:23of the virtues of proportional representation.
2:02:23 > 2:02:25I've been trying to do that all of my life.
2:02:25 > 2:02:28But you have to accept the fact of the matter - she got the mandate.
2:02:28 > 2:02:30There were three lots of opposition.
2:02:30 > 2:02:33There was Ming, there was Polly, who was part of the SDP,
2:02:33 > 2:02:37and there was us, which was the old Labour Party.
2:02:37 > 2:02:40And it was the old Labour Party that had to modernise,
2:02:40 > 2:02:43that had to reform, that had to make itself electable,
2:02:43 > 2:02:47particularly in the south of England. And, eventually, we did it.
2:02:47 > 2:02:50Not courtesy of the Libs, not courtesy of the SDP,
2:02:50 > 2:02:52but of listening to and responding to people.
2:02:52 > 2:02:57And, actually, we've got to make sure we do that for 2015 as well.
2:02:57 > 2:02:59Maybe courtesy of Mrs Thatcher,
2:02:59 > 2:03:02which brings me to a question from Jonathan Ware, please.
2:03:02 > 2:03:05I'll come to you, I know you've had your hand up for some time.
2:03:05 > 2:03:09- Jonathan Ware.- Was new Labour Thatcher's greatest legacy?
2:03:09 > 2:03:11All right. You can carry on, David.
2:03:11 > 2:03:13LAUGHTER
2:03:13 > 2:03:15APPLAUSE
2:03:18 > 2:03:24Well, I'd settle for that rather than Pinochet and apartheid
2:03:24 > 2:03:27and the things that she supported
2:03:27 > 2:03:29that people want to forget this week.
2:03:29 > 2:03:31Yes, in one sense. In one sense, we were.
2:03:31 > 2:03:33What was the evidence she supported apartheid?
2:03:33 > 2:03:34Yes, just remind us of that.
2:03:34 > 2:03:36Well, the flags on the platform
2:03:36 > 2:03:40when she was prime minister that denounced sanctions
2:03:40 > 2:03:43and the ANC as a terrorist organisation.
2:03:43 > 2:03:46Sorry, is to be against sanctions to be in favour of apartheid?
2:03:46 > 2:03:50- Well, it was supportive of the regime that existed.- Let me just...
2:03:50 > 2:03:55Let me just say on this, this is absolutely untrue.
2:03:55 > 2:04:00Margaret Thatcher had the closest engagement of all foreign leaders
2:04:00 > 2:04:03with the attempts to release Nelson Mandela
2:04:03 > 2:04:05because she was the only one... Because...
2:04:05 > 2:04:08- AUDIENCE MEMBER:- Absolute nonsense - she called him a terrorist.- No. No.
2:04:08 > 2:04:10APPLAUSE
2:04:10 > 2:04:13No, no, no sorry. No, no, no, she called...
2:04:13 > 2:04:16She said the ANC was a terrorist organisation
2:04:16 > 2:04:18which was undeniably the case.
2:04:18 > 2:04:24But what she did was to persuade FW de Klerk to release Mandela.
2:04:24 > 2:04:27And no other foreign leader had remotely that influence.
2:04:27 > 2:04:29It had to be the white government who released him,
2:04:29 > 2:04:31because they were the government.
2:04:31 > 2:04:33She maintained an engagement with that country.
2:04:33 > 2:04:36Well, I think the Americans had a part to play in that.
2:04:36 > 2:04:39Of course. Of course Mrs Thatcher didn't do it alone,
2:04:39 > 2:04:42but it's monstrous to say she's defending apartheid.
2:04:42 > 2:04:44- Absolutely monstrous.- Let's... - And Nelson Mandela...
2:04:44 > 2:04:46When Nelson Mandela came out,
2:04:46 > 2:04:49he came to see her in Number 10 and he thanked her.
2:04:49 > 2:04:52Well, I've seen him three times and I heard a different story.
2:04:52 > 2:04:56- Can we just get back to what you asked me?- New Labour? Yes.- Yes.
2:04:56 > 2:04:58I think, in part, we were.
2:04:58 > 2:05:01Because I think it was a massive awakening of the realisation
2:05:01 > 2:05:05that you cannot do anything if you don't get into power.
2:05:05 > 2:05:06If you don't win elections,
2:05:06 > 2:05:10you can have your glass of beer or your wine and you can reminisce
2:05:10 > 2:05:14and you can get angry but you can't change people's lives for the better
2:05:14 > 2:05:17and that did shake us to the very foundations.
2:05:17 > 2:05:20And that's why Tony Blair eventually emerged as leader
2:05:20 > 2:05:25and why we won three elections on the trot as well as Mrs Thatcher.
2:05:25 > 2:05:28- OK?- OK. The man in the red and white shirt there. You, sir.
2:05:28 > 2:05:30The reason Margaret Thatcher won the second election
2:05:30 > 2:05:33isn't because she destroyed the opposition or the Labour Party,
2:05:33 > 2:05:36it's because she sank the Belgrano.
2:05:36 > 2:05:37SCATTERED APPLAUSE
2:05:37 > 2:05:39OK.
2:05:39 > 2:05:41That's not true, either.
2:05:41 > 2:05:46She was the political mainspring for the liberation of the Falklands.
2:05:46 > 2:05:49I don't think you can tie it down to the sinking of the Belgrano
2:05:49 > 2:05:54and there's, recently, a far greater degree of open-mindedness
2:05:54 > 2:05:56about whether she was right or wrong to do that.
2:05:56 > 2:05:57The fact of the matter is
2:05:57 > 2:05:59that, if Mrs Thatcher -
2:05:59 > 2:06:01and I'm no supporter of Mrs Thatcher -
2:06:01 > 2:06:04but if she hadn't had the courage to say to the British military,
2:06:04 > 2:06:08"Go and get the Falklands back under British control,"
2:06:08 > 2:06:10then it wouldn't have happened.
2:06:10 > 2:06:12- You are quite a supporter, actually! - APPLAUSE
2:06:12 > 2:06:16Well, your opening remarks were quite supportive of her,
2:06:16 > 2:06:18that she had the courage to do the things that needed doing.
2:06:18 > 2:06:21You have to be realistic about this.
2:06:21 > 2:06:23There was a peace treaty on the table to solve the Falklands...
2:06:23 > 2:06:26The problem, at the moment, about this whole debate
2:06:26 > 2:06:29is that it's somewhere in between hagiography and hatred.
2:06:29 > 2:06:30And the fact of the matter is,
2:06:30 > 2:06:32as someone pointed out a little earlier,
2:06:32 > 2:06:36when you get history, then you get a better perspective.
2:06:36 > 2:06:39And the problem for all of us is we were all engaged in it.
2:06:39 > 2:06:42When I was elected to the House of Commons, I couldn't believe
2:06:42 > 2:06:46the way Margaret Thatcher dealt with David Steel and Paddy Ashdown
2:06:46 > 2:06:50and Neil Kinnock. She dominated the place.
2:06:50 > 2:06:52She hit people for six twice a week -
2:06:52 > 2:06:55because, in those days, we had Prime Minister's Questions twice a week.
2:06:55 > 2:06:59- She was the most extraordinarily dominant figure.- How come, though?
2:06:59 > 2:07:02- Because the policies were right? - Because of her presence.
2:07:02 > 2:07:05- Because of her commitment. - Her conviction.
2:07:05 > 2:07:08Because of her belief, conviction. As I said a little earlier...
2:07:08 > 2:07:10- Why didn't you have conviction? - Well, I had plenty.
2:07:10 > 2:07:12LAUGHTER
2:07:12 > 2:07:14I had plenty of previous convictions!
2:07:14 > 2:07:15LAUGHTER
2:07:15 > 2:07:16It's not quite what I meant.
2:07:16 > 2:07:21The point I want to make is she was a wholly dominant figure.
2:07:21 > 2:07:25And what that persuades me of is the fact -
2:07:25 > 2:07:27and there's some sense in what the prime minister said -
2:07:27 > 2:07:30"Cometh the hour, cometh the woman."
2:07:30 > 2:07:34And the point is, as has been said already, the opposition was divided.
2:07:34 > 2:07:36There were three different kinds of opposition,
2:07:36 > 2:07:38and she took advantage of that.
2:07:38 > 2:07:41But when it came to the Falklands, rightly or wrongly,
2:07:41 > 2:07:43if she had said, "No,"
2:07:43 > 2:07:47then the Falklands would still be under the control of Argentina.
2:07:47 > 2:07:49It was a damn close-run thing.
2:07:49 > 2:07:51If another couple of Exocet missiles
2:07:51 > 2:07:54had hit another couple of British warships,
2:07:54 > 2:07:56if the flagship had been hit
2:07:56 > 2:07:59instead of the Atlantic Conveyor, that had the helicopters,
2:07:59 > 2:08:02then the whole thing would have been a monstrous disaster
2:08:02 > 2:08:05- and she would have been booted out of office.- Yes.
2:08:05 > 2:08:06That's interesting,
2:08:06 > 2:08:09but let's come back to what lay behind Jonathan Ware's question
2:08:09 > 2:08:11about whether new Labour was Thatcher's greatest legacy.
2:08:11 > 2:08:14In other words, whether Thatcher or Thatcherism,
2:08:14 > 2:08:16however you like to define it, changed the nature
2:08:16 > 2:08:20of the political debate in Britain and has changed it for ever.
2:08:20 > 2:08:23That's the contention. Polly Toynbee.
2:08:23 > 2:08:25I think losing three elections did.
2:08:25 > 2:08:29There were certain things she did that really have changed the nation.
2:08:29 > 2:08:31One of which was to deregulate the City,
2:08:31 > 2:08:35to set off... To set off that great boom,
2:08:35 > 2:08:37to take the lid off the top
2:08:37 > 2:08:39of salaries at the top,
2:08:39 > 2:08:44of a sense of the "greed is good" world of the boys in red braces
2:08:44 > 2:08:47from which we still suffer, unbalancing the economy
2:08:47 > 2:08:50by shutting down manufacturing and relying on the City.
2:08:50 > 2:08:55Now, Labour did the same. Labour didn't get a grip on that.
2:08:55 > 2:08:57The golden goose was just too tempting -
2:08:57 > 2:08:59it kept laying eggs for the Treasury -
2:08:59 > 2:09:03and so I think Labour failed to put right
2:09:03 > 2:09:05her most serious economic errors.
2:09:05 > 2:09:07But I don't think we should be carried away by the idea
2:09:07 > 2:09:11that somehow Labour was a pale shadow of Thatcher.
2:09:11 > 2:09:14Just consider the things that Labour did which were really good.
2:09:14 > 2:09:17Things like the national minimum wage,
2:09:17 > 2:09:20things like tax credits that really did redistribute wealth
2:09:20 > 2:09:21to a great many people,
2:09:21 > 2:09:24things like repairing the appalling public squalor
2:09:24 > 2:09:26this country had fallen into,
2:09:26 > 2:09:30whether it was roads, schools, hospitals with leaking roofs.
2:09:30 > 2:09:33There was a transformation of our great cities that really
2:09:33 > 2:09:36were repaired under Labour's time.
2:09:36 > 2:09:40I think to try and compare Labour's respect
2:09:40 > 2:09:46and belief in the collective good and the need for civic values,
2:09:46 > 2:09:49to try and compare that with Thatcher's "No such thing as society"
2:09:49 > 2:09:51is really unfair.
2:09:51 > 2:09:52Charles Moore.
2:09:57 > 2:10:00It's very, very unfashionable to praise Tony Blair.
2:10:00 > 2:10:03But I want to do it in this respect...
2:10:03 > 2:10:06- MING:- You're not writing a biography, are you?!
2:10:06 > 2:10:09It'll be a two edged sword, Charles. It'll be a two-edged sword.
2:10:09 > 2:10:11He understood...
2:10:11 > 2:10:14He understood - and he learnt this and he would say this himself,
2:10:14 > 2:10:18from Mrs Thatcher - that in order to be a successful leader,
2:10:18 > 2:10:21you must talk to people who are not in your party already.
2:10:21 > 2:10:24And Mrs Thatcher reached out tremendously
2:10:24 > 2:10:25to a whole load of former Labour voters
2:10:25 > 2:10:28in the upper working class, lower middle class -
2:10:28 > 2:10:31the caricature would be something like the Luton car worker, was
2:10:31 > 2:10:33the phrase at the time, something like that -
2:10:33 > 2:10:36who saw her standing for their aspirations
2:10:36 > 2:10:39and they were more interested in her than in her party.
2:10:39 > 2:10:40Tony Blair understood the same
2:10:40 > 2:10:43and he understood that Labour had destroyed itself
2:10:43 > 2:10:45by being much too interested in itself
2:10:45 > 2:10:48and not in the wider electorate.
2:10:48 > 2:10:50And he was extremely successful about that.
2:10:50 > 2:10:52And there, unfortunately, I think the resemblance
2:10:52 > 2:10:54between him and Mrs Thatcher ends,
2:10:54 > 2:10:56because he knew how to pull this one off
2:10:56 > 2:10:58but then didn't know what to do when he'd won.
2:10:58 > 2:11:01All right. Let's hear from some members of our audience now.
2:11:01 > 2:11:04There's... I was going to come to you, yes, in the second row there.
2:11:04 > 2:11:07It seems that Thatcher kind of affirms the idea
2:11:07 > 2:11:12that new Labour was a continuation of her kind of free-market scheme.
2:11:12 > 2:11:14When asked what was her proudest creation in life,
2:11:14 > 2:11:18she said two words, "Tony Blair." So it almost seems that she knows
2:11:18 > 2:11:20that, you know, she was an accomplice.
2:11:20 > 2:11:24- She was putting the boot in.- She was putting the boot in, you say?
2:11:24 > 2:11:26- All right.- Damned with faint praise!
2:11:26 > 2:11:29The person over there, on the right, you.
2:11:29 > 2:11:35I think that, perhaps, her influence and her legacy was...
2:11:35 > 2:11:38As one of the first women in politics,
2:11:38 > 2:11:41was perhaps greater than the new Labour.
2:11:41 > 2:11:44Because that's still impacting my generation today.
2:11:44 > 2:11:46That it was a woman who was prime minister?
2:11:46 > 2:11:47Yeah, definitely, definitely.
2:11:47 > 2:11:52Because my generation look at her as a role model,
2:11:52 > 2:11:57because she's managed to get this power and this position which,
2:11:57 > 2:12:03unfortunately, today is still very hard for women in our generation.
2:12:03 > 2:12:05And that is sort of aside from her policies?
2:12:05 > 2:12:08Do you agree with her policies as well or you just saying,
2:12:08 > 2:12:10"Being a woman was enough for me"?
2:12:10 > 2:12:14I think the policies polarise opinion too much to be...
2:12:14 > 2:12:17I can't, I can't generalise on her policies,
2:12:17 > 2:12:20but just having that representation in government
2:12:20 > 2:12:22is enough for a role model.
2:12:22 > 2:12:25And it really does still impact me, especially today.
2:12:25 > 2:12:27Can I just tell a very quick story about that?
2:12:27 > 2:12:31Mrs Thatcher had to go to a dinner and it was a think-tank
2:12:31 > 2:12:35and they were all making great, long speeches in praise of themselves,
2:12:35 > 2:12:38and she got up at the end of it and she said,
2:12:38 > 2:12:41"I've just heard nine speeches from men
2:12:41 > 2:12:46"and I want to say that the cocks may crow but the hens lay the eggs."
2:12:46 > 2:12:49- LAUGHTER - And here's another story.
2:12:49 > 2:12:51It's the one where they were sat around, having dinner
2:12:51 > 2:12:54and the Cabinet were there and the waiter says,
2:12:54 > 2:12:58having given her the meat, "And what about the vegetables?"
2:12:58 > 2:13:00She said, "They'll all have the same."
2:13:00 > 2:13:01LAUGHTER
2:13:01 > 2:13:03The old ones are always the best!
2:13:03 > 2:13:06At least, of all the myths, that's an amusing one.
2:13:06 > 2:13:09- That is Spitting Image, isn't it? - That's John Lloyd.
2:13:09 > 2:13:12- I mean, the answer to the question is yes.- Hold on.
2:13:12 > 2:13:13You're talking about women?
2:13:13 > 2:13:15No, Tony Blair as her greatest legacy.
2:13:15 > 2:13:17- I want to pick up on women. - Oh, women!
2:13:17 > 2:13:21Hang on, I've got a question from... Let's go with women.
2:13:21 > 2:13:22Anne Mullen, let's have your question
2:13:22 > 2:13:25and then we'll go with that, but we can come back to the other points.
2:13:25 > 2:13:27Anne Mullen.
2:13:27 > 2:13:29Did Margaret Thatcher contribute to feminism?
2:13:29 > 2:13:31Did Margaret Thatcher contribute to feminism?
2:13:31 > 2:13:34I go back to you, you're saying she did, effectively?
2:13:34 > 2:13:38If you look at her as a female role model, regardless,
2:13:38 > 2:13:42and let's not take into consideration her opinions here,
2:13:42 > 2:13:47but just take into question the fact that she had managed to reach a goal
2:13:47 > 2:13:50in such a male-dominated world and I think that's admirable.
2:13:50 > 2:13:51Polly Toynbee.
2:13:52 > 2:13:54You are absolutely right.
2:13:54 > 2:13:58Just by being there she changed things for women enormously.
2:13:58 > 2:14:02Nobody ever again said a woman couldn't this or that.
2:14:02 > 2:14:05But that is as far as it went.
2:14:05 > 2:14:08She said she never wanted to ask about being a woman.
2:14:08 > 2:14:10She hated feminism, she said she did.
2:14:10 > 2:14:13She was the only post-war Prime Minister to have, for a while,
2:14:13 > 2:14:15no other woman in her Cabinet.
2:14:15 > 2:14:18She liked to look rather like I do today,
2:14:18 > 2:14:21the one bright-dressed woman amongst a row of suits.
2:14:21 > 2:14:25You didn't insist we didn't have another woman, did you?
2:14:25 > 2:14:29I would be delighted if we were all women. It would be great.
2:14:29 > 2:14:32She was a queen bee, she pulled up the ladder after her.
2:14:32 > 2:14:37She did nothing for women in terms of the things that really mattered,
2:14:37 > 2:14:39like childcare, which Labour did.
2:14:39 > 2:14:42Like nurseries, which Labour did.
2:14:42 > 2:14:43Equal pay got nowhere.
2:14:43 > 2:14:47Women on boards, women in public life - nothing at all.
2:14:47 > 2:14:49It's a great disappointment,
2:14:49 > 2:14:53it often happens in companies and organisations that you have
2:14:53 > 2:14:57the queen bee syndrome and she does nothing for anyone else.
2:14:57 > 2:15:01Whereas women who really do help other women up the ladder can
2:15:01 > 2:15:03make an enormous difference.
2:15:03 > 2:15:08I think that was one of the tragedies about our first woman Prime Minister.
2:15:08 > 2:15:09APPLAUSE
2:15:16 > 2:15:20I come from Eastern Europe, from Russia,
2:15:20 > 2:15:24and Margaret Thatcher is very popular in my country indeed,
2:15:24 > 2:15:29even though her views on the Soviet Union and everything.
2:15:29 > 2:15:33And I have to say that just being a woman really made a change,
2:15:33 > 2:15:39because in history lessons we are told that it's the first
2:15:39 > 2:15:42woman Prime Minister and a strong figure.
2:15:42 > 2:15:46Right now, people in Russia -
2:15:46 > 2:15:50they don't know details about politics and everything in the UK -
2:15:50 > 2:15:56they are wondering why all the celebrations and riots.
2:15:56 > 2:15:59- Over her death?- Yeah.- Ken Clarke.
2:15:59 > 2:16:02Well, to women she was a fantastic role model.
2:16:02 > 2:16:05I agree with Polly. She was THE great role model.
2:16:05 > 2:16:09It was an extraordinary achievement that the first woman Prime Minister,
2:16:09 > 2:16:12in the Conservative Party.
2:16:12 > 2:16:14Before the war we'd had Lady Astor.
2:16:14 > 2:16:19She wasn't Lady Astor, but Margaret Thatcher from Grantham.
2:16:19 > 2:16:21On every front it was an amazing achievement.
2:16:21 > 2:16:24She did neglect to do anything for other women.
2:16:24 > 2:16:26She liked working in a Cabinet of men.
2:16:26 > 2:16:31On that she was weak, I will concede that, I agree with Polly on that.
2:16:31 > 2:16:35but her very example made an extraordinary difference.
2:16:35 > 2:16:36It broke a taboo.
2:16:36 > 2:16:40When we elected her as leader I can remember old boys
2:16:40 > 2:16:43on the backbenches saying, "It's all right here in London
2:16:43 > 2:16:47"but in the North they won't vote for a woman as Prime Minister."
2:16:47 > 2:16:50All of this was blown out of the water in 1979
2:16:50 > 2:16:54by the fact that she could lead, and boy could she lead!
2:16:54 > 2:16:59It's a pity that cut-out cardboard caricatures of her have been created
2:16:59 > 2:17:03by the left, which young people who weren't even born then,
2:17:03 > 2:17:08appear to believe. We deregulated the banks, Polly? We didn't!
2:17:08 > 2:17:11We had the big bank bang, which stopped old boys...
2:17:11 > 2:17:15To be a stockbroker you had to be a chap who knew the chaps.
2:17:15 > 2:17:21It was a closed little silly circle. We let international companies in.
2:17:21 > 2:17:25It was Gordon who abolished the Bank of England, which regulated...
2:17:25 > 2:17:27He didn't abolish the Bank of England.
2:17:27 > 2:17:29As a regulator, he did.
2:17:29 > 2:17:33He put in the utterly useless Financial Services Authority,
2:17:33 > 2:17:37which did no macroeconomic regulation, and we are still
2:17:37 > 2:17:41suffering from the banking crisis which new Labour caused
2:17:41 > 2:17:45by one of the very first actions they took when they took over office.
2:17:45 > 2:17:47A number of women...
2:17:49 > 2:17:52- I don't mind.- That is the rewriting of history, by the way.
2:17:52 > 2:17:53It is not rewriting.
2:17:53 > 2:17:56I don't want to leave the issue of women.
2:17:56 > 2:17:59There's a number of women with their hands up.
2:17:59 > 2:18:01I'd like to go to them and then we'll carry on.
2:18:01 > 2:18:03- Over there on the left, yes.- Hi.
2:18:03 > 2:18:06I'd like to agree with the two ladies over there.
2:18:06 > 2:18:10Whether you agree or disagree with some of her policies, I think
2:18:10 > 2:18:13Margaret Thatcher's a really good example to young women in politics.
2:18:13 > 2:18:16I study politics now at university.
2:18:16 > 2:18:19There are only a few girls on my course.
2:18:19 > 2:18:23About 20 girls out of 110 boys, so we always look up to Margaret Thatcher
2:18:23 > 2:18:28and see her as a great example that women can be successful in politics.
2:18:28 > 2:18:30OK, and... Three women in a row.
2:18:30 > 2:18:33Let's start over here and go to the right.
2:18:33 > 2:18:35Yes, you first of all.
2:18:35 > 2:18:41A single-minded self-righteous woman who really taught people
2:18:41 > 2:18:45only to think about themselves and their family
2:18:45 > 2:18:48and not care about anybody else in society.
2:18:48 > 2:18:51- What kind of role model is that?- OK.
2:18:56 > 2:18:59- Do you agree with her? - Yes, I think I would have to agree.
2:18:59 > 2:19:03Isn't it dangerous to have this idea that just because she was
2:19:03 > 2:19:07the first female Prime Minister that we'll remember her just for that
2:19:07 > 2:19:11- and forget all of the policies that have been detrimental?- OK.
2:19:11 > 2:19:12David.
2:19:12 > 2:19:17I don't think it's to disagree with those who've said that it inspired
2:19:17 > 2:19:22women to believe, "We can do it," and to be proud of someone becoming
2:19:22 > 2:19:26the first woman Prime Minister,
2:19:26 > 2:19:29to say that there is a contradiction.
2:19:29 > 2:19:32The contradiction is this. People are always telling me,
2:19:32 > 2:19:35and I want it to be true, that women do things differently,
2:19:35 > 2:19:37that their approach is different,
2:19:37 > 2:19:40that they don't have to be a mimicry of men.
2:19:40 > 2:19:44They don't have to be tough and big boots and all the rest of it.
2:19:44 > 2:19:47But the successful women in politics are,
2:19:47 > 2:19:50including Angela Merkel in Germany,
2:19:50 > 2:19:51so how do we square the circle
2:19:51 > 2:19:54where people want really tough, strong leaders,
2:19:54 > 2:19:57and in the next breath they want people who are gentle,
2:19:57 > 2:20:00who are thoughtful, who are feminine?
2:20:00 > 2:20:02- How do we get round that one? - SOME APPLAUSE
2:20:02 > 2:20:03I'll tell you how.
2:20:03 > 2:20:08If you started by having... 50% of the Cabinet were women,
2:20:08 > 2:20:11you would find the atmosphere would change.
2:20:11 > 2:20:14- Only if they were competent, Polly. - You mean as competent
2:20:14 > 2:20:16- as all the male politicians?- Yeah.
2:20:16 > 2:20:20No, I'm not saying they wouldn't be. I'm saying, only if they were.
2:20:20 > 2:20:24True, the next state of feminism is going to be achieving that.
2:20:24 > 2:20:27In those days, it is true, when I started in politics,
2:20:27 > 2:20:30to be a woman you had to be tougher than any average woman.
2:20:30 > 2:20:34The Labour Party only had Barbara Castle who could have led them.
2:20:34 > 2:20:37- Yes, she could. - I was a great admirer of Barbara
2:20:37 > 2:20:39but she was a harridan. Her style...
2:20:39 > 2:20:44- I shadowed her.- What does a harridan mean?- She was ferocious.
2:20:44 > 2:20:46Was Margaret Thatcher ferocious?
2:20:46 > 2:20:48I specialised in getting her to lose her temper.
2:20:48 > 2:20:53I loved sitting opposite her and having this red-headed woman
2:20:53 > 2:20:57flaring away at me, trying to tear me apart across the dispatch box.
2:20:57 > 2:20:59Are you describing Mrs Thatcher in Cabinet?
2:20:59 > 2:21:02I hope the next generation of politicians will have
2:21:02 > 2:21:05ordinary women of ordinary temperament.
2:21:05 > 2:21:09But I'm afraid when Margaret and Barbara were making their way
2:21:09 > 2:21:13in a man's world, from an ordinary background, not privileged women
2:21:13 > 2:21:17who got in on the edges, they did have to be that much tougher.
2:21:17 > 2:21:19That explained her style, I think.
2:21:19 > 2:21:22- She had to make sure nobody walked over her.- OK, Ming Campbell.
2:21:22 > 2:21:26I wonder if the test of all this is, would it be as easy as a woman
2:21:26 > 2:21:29to become the leader of the Conservative Party today
2:21:29 > 2:21:30as it was for Mrs Thatcher?
2:21:30 > 2:21:32She had a unique opportunity
2:21:32 > 2:21:37because Ted Heath was very substantially devalued.
2:21:37 > 2:21:42She had a quite remorseless determination.
2:21:42 > 2:21:45She had all the qualities.
2:21:45 > 2:21:47She also had the opportunity.
2:21:47 > 2:21:52You are an amazing Thatcher fan! I'm really surprised!
2:21:52 > 2:21:55She had all the qualities which David Blunkett's been suggesting
2:21:55 > 2:21:58- are essential if you want to prove leadership.- Hobnail boots?
2:21:58 > 2:22:02- I don't think he was suggesting that. - Pretty nearly.
2:22:02 > 2:22:07What is certainly the case is that the opportunity presented itself.
2:22:07 > 2:22:12The difficulty for women in the House of Commons, particularly,
2:22:12 > 2:22:14is that a lot of local associations,
2:22:14 > 2:22:17and I don't exempt mine from this criticism,
2:22:17 > 2:22:19simply won't have women candidates.
2:22:19 > 2:22:24There'd be more women in the Commons if local political associations
2:22:24 > 2:22:27were much more willing to accept them as candidates.
2:22:27 > 2:22:29- And your party's the worst, isn't it?- Yes, indeed.
2:22:29 > 2:22:32You could have all-women shortlists, like the Labour Party.
2:22:32 > 2:22:35- If I may say so, one at a time. - Why do you have fewer women?
2:22:35 > 2:22:38I think the answer is as I provided it...
2:22:38 > 2:22:41I think the answer is as I provided it...
2:22:41 > 2:22:46local associations of all parties are often reluctant to have women
2:22:46 > 2:22:50and they often make quite extraordinary demands
2:22:50 > 2:22:53on women candidates, which they're unable to fulfil
2:22:53 > 2:22:56because of their other obligations.
2:22:56 > 2:22:57Charles Moore.
2:22:57 > 2:23:00I want to try and explain why Mrs Thatcher behaved about women
2:23:00 > 2:23:02in the way that Polly describes,
2:23:02 > 2:23:05because she describes it accurately in a way, but she misses the point.
2:23:05 > 2:23:11She believed that if she always talked of herself as a woman,
2:23:11 > 2:23:13she would be ghettoising women.
2:23:13 > 2:23:16She wanted to conquer everything.
2:23:16 > 2:23:20What she kept saying all the time in her early years as an MP was,
2:23:20 > 2:23:24"I want to be Chancellor of the Exchequer." She didn't want
2:23:24 > 2:23:28to do the things which were always associated with women.
2:23:28 > 2:23:32So she wanted to do things not associated with women,
2:23:32 > 2:23:33like money, war and power.
2:23:33 > 2:23:38She wanted to take over them because only when those had been
2:23:38 > 2:23:42taken over would women really be equal or even more than equal.
2:23:42 > 2:23:45It also brought in a completely different way of looking
2:23:45 > 2:23:50at politics, a whole different way, particularly economics.
2:23:50 > 2:23:54She used the fact that she was a woman to talk about economics
2:23:54 > 2:23:58in common-sense terms, about what happens in the household budget.
2:23:58 > 2:24:03She didn't practise it. Honestly, she didn't.
2:24:03 > 2:24:07We can debate that. The point I'm making is that she changed
2:24:07 > 2:24:11the language, argument and thought of politics and economics
2:24:11 > 2:24:14and that arose to a large extent from her sex
2:24:14 > 2:24:16and her understanding of her sex
2:24:16 > 2:24:20and her different perception of the world from men, and that's key.
2:24:20 > 2:24:23It led from her obsession with the Chicago School of Economics,
2:24:23 > 2:24:27that's where it came from, nothing to do with her sex.
2:24:27 > 2:24:29No, no, it is to do...
2:24:29 > 2:24:31She was intellectually persuaded of something
2:24:31 > 2:24:34that proved to be intellectually barren.
2:24:34 > 2:24:38Even in the 1950s, she was arguing in her election addresses,
2:24:38 > 2:24:40she was only 25, she was saying,
2:24:40 > 2:24:44don't listen to what all the expert men tell you.
2:24:44 > 2:24:48Think about, you're a woman and you have to manage your household budget
2:24:48 > 2:24:51and you know what it's like and I will tell you, and so on.
2:24:51 > 2:24:55This is a very big change, it's a very big spread of democracy
2:24:55 > 2:24:58and a very big taking away from an elite
2:24:58 > 2:25:01- and making something clear, clever and true.- It was clever.
2:25:01 > 2:25:04It's not just clever, it's big and true and different.
2:25:04 > 2:25:07The man in the pink shirt? We must keep moving.
2:25:07 > 2:25:13Going back to what Ming said about the lack of women in politics
2:25:13 > 2:25:17and how it's down to local constituencies, why don't the other
2:25:17 > 2:25:21parties follow Labour's lead and introduce women-only shortlists?
2:25:21 > 2:25:24- Which you would like to see?- Yes, to start with.- You, sir, on the left?
2:25:24 > 2:25:28Were Mrs Thatcher's policies the forerunner to the banking crisis
2:25:28 > 2:25:34- and the scandals from 2008 until now?- We have touched on that.
2:25:34 > 2:25:40- Yeah, but Ken then rewrote history. - You said Ken rewrote history.
2:25:40 > 2:25:46- He did.- I did not. The Bank of England was the regulatory body.
2:25:46 > 2:25:47And it was utterly useless.
2:25:47 > 2:25:51The big bang we introduced in the '80s, which Labour did not oppose,
2:25:51 > 2:25:55because they could hardly get into bed with the kind of people
2:25:55 > 2:25:58that dominated the City of London before the big bang.
2:25:58 > 2:26:02Were you in favour of the Americans buying our finance houses and banks?
2:26:02 > 2:26:04I'm in favour of attracting inward investment,
2:26:04 > 2:26:07the City of London was transformed into the capital of Europe.
2:26:07 > 2:26:10Were you in favour of what happened in the banking sector?
2:26:10 > 2:26:12I'm entirely in favour
2:26:12 > 2:26:14of allowing international banks to come to London.
2:26:14 > 2:26:17London was very nearly the biggest financial centre in the world.
2:26:17 > 2:26:21What it lacked, thanks to the changes Gordon Brown made,
2:26:21 > 2:26:23- was a proper regulatory body. - No, no, no.
2:26:23 > 2:26:26I think we're going to get nowhere with that.
2:26:26 > 2:26:30You, sir, with the spectacles, then a question from over here.
2:26:30 > 2:26:34Ken, at the end of the day, it was Gordon Brown who gave
2:26:34 > 2:26:38independence to the Bank of England of England because you people
2:26:38 > 2:26:41were manipulating interest rates in order to win elections.
2:26:41 > 2:26:43No, we weren't.
2:26:43 > 2:26:45We're talking about Thatcher
2:26:45 > 2:26:48and I want a question from Mr Fernando, please?
2:26:48 > 2:26:53What does it say about our country in the eyes of the world when some
2:26:53 > 2:26:57citizens are celebrating or rejoicing the death of a prime minister?
2:26:57 > 2:27:00It's a question that picks up on the point that the lady
2:27:00 > 2:27:05from Russia made - what does it say about this country that
2:27:05 > 2:27:09citizens celebrate the death of a prime minister? Charles Moore?
2:27:09 > 2:27:14I think what you have to think about is how this is being covered.
2:27:14 > 2:27:16At any one time, there will always be some people
2:27:16 > 2:27:19who are horrible and misbehave.
2:27:19 > 2:27:22The question is, how much attention do you pay to them
2:27:22 > 2:27:23and how many are there?
2:27:23 > 2:27:28What's going on here is the media, and very particularly the BBC,
2:27:28 > 2:27:31which tried for 24 hours to be nice about Mrs Thatcher
2:27:31 > 2:27:34but the strain couldn't stand any longer,
2:27:34 > 2:27:36- is... - LAUGHTER
2:27:38 > 2:27:41..is promoting day after day
2:27:41 > 2:27:45the idea that she's very divisive and particularly the idea
2:27:45 > 2:27:48that people are trashing her reputation by celebrating it.
2:27:48 > 2:27:52There are lots of very rational, sensible criticisms of Mrs Thatcher,
2:27:52 > 2:27:54it's important to hear them.
2:27:54 > 2:27:56There are a tiny number of people being vile
2:27:56 > 2:28:01but they're being bigged up every day on the TV and the radio,
2:28:01 > 2:28:04and particularly on the BBC, and I heard today a ludicrous thing
2:28:04 > 2:28:08on the PM programme, the BBC's trying to get this
2:28:08 > 2:28:11Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead up to the top of the charts
2:28:11 > 2:28:15by going on and on and on about whether it should be banned
2:28:15 > 2:28:16and all this nonsense.
2:28:16 > 2:28:19By the way, Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead,
2:28:19 > 2:28:23the reason that song is sung, I think, is that the witch that's dead
2:28:23 > 2:28:27- is the Wicked Witch of the East and...- It's the Wizard of Oz.
2:28:27 > 2:28:31Yes, and the Wicked Witch of the East is the witch who's died
2:28:31 > 2:28:36and it was Mrs Thatcher who defeated the East, and in this tale...
2:28:36 > 2:28:38AUDIENCE: Ohhhh!
2:28:38 > 2:28:45- I didn't mean that.- In this tale, Mrs Thatcher is Dorothy!
2:28:45 > 2:28:50- So in that case...- So you're walking the Yellow Brick Road.
2:28:50 > 2:28:52So you'll be voting for it to go top?
2:28:52 > 2:28:56THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE
2:28:56 > 2:28:59At least...don't come the Tin Man.
2:28:59 > 2:29:00Ming Campbell.
2:29:00 > 2:29:06This notion of conspiracy of the BBC to do down Mrs Thatcher...
2:29:06 > 2:29:08It comes naturally to them,
2:29:08 > 2:29:11they don't have to conspire. It's in there.
2:29:11 > 2:29:13It's a persecution complex.
2:29:13 > 2:29:18If you look at the total coverage in the last four or five days,
2:29:18 > 2:29:22it's almost universally been favourable to Mrs Thatcher.
2:29:22 > 2:29:26Can I say, I'm ashamed of people, for example, in Glasgow,
2:29:26 > 2:29:32where I come from, who danced Scottish reels in the main square
2:29:32 > 2:29:36because I think that's thoroughly distasteful and unacceptable.
2:29:36 > 2:29:42The idea that this is somehow part of a natural built-in revulsion
2:29:42 > 2:29:45fostered by the BBC is frankly
2:29:45 > 2:29:50to exhibit a persecution complex which is unjustified.
2:29:50 > 2:29:53David Blunkett?
2:29:56 > 2:30:00Well, there are people in South Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire,
2:30:00 > 2:30:04the areas I know very well, whose fathers and sons still don't
2:30:04 > 2:30:09talk to each other, whose neighbours don't talk to each other.
2:30:09 > 2:30:13People fell out so badly, the hurt was so great, the anger remains.
2:30:13 > 2:30:19I don't justify them going out in the street and celebrating.
2:30:19 > 2:30:22We need to respect our past leaders if we disagree with them,
2:30:22 > 2:30:26we need to respect those who've given their lives to public service
2:30:26 > 2:30:29even if we detest their policies.
2:30:29 > 2:30:33But I think to understand why a very few people have behaved the way
2:30:33 > 2:30:37they have, you have to understand the bitterness that still remains.
2:30:37 > 2:30:40I really hope that from next Wednesday
2:30:40 > 2:30:42families can come back together again,
2:30:42 > 2:30:45communities can be healed and people can put this behind them.
2:30:45 > 2:30:49- So now he's criticising Mrs... - No, I'm not.
2:30:49 > 2:30:54What David is doing is criticising Mrs Thatcher for dying.
2:30:54 > 2:30:58- Oh, come on.- He's saying she's being incredibly divisive.
2:30:58 > 2:31:00I'd rather she hadn't died
2:31:00 > 2:31:05in the lead-up to the county council elections, you're right,
2:31:05 > 2:31:11- I'd have liked her to have been out there for ever.- Polly Toynbee?
2:31:11 > 2:31:15Of course people should have the right to protest and demonstrate.
2:31:15 > 2:31:16She was very divisive.
2:31:16 > 2:31:20The best person on this subject was Charles Powell,
2:31:20 > 2:31:25her life-long confidante and great ally, and he said,
2:31:25 > 2:31:30"She'd have been disappointed if they hadn't," and he's quite right.
2:31:30 > 2:31:34She was divisive, she liked to fight, she got a lot of fights,
2:31:34 > 2:31:37she stirred up huge passions on both sides,
2:31:37 > 2:31:41as we see in this audience, of people who were passionately devoted to her
2:31:41 > 2:31:44and people who thought she was destroying the country.
2:31:44 > 2:31:48It remains the case, and particularly now that we have a government...
2:31:48 > 2:31:53In the very week when these enormous £19 billion of cuts to benefits
2:31:53 > 2:31:56have come in, and she happens to die that very week
2:31:56 > 2:32:01when all those old sores are being re-opened, all the old wounds,
2:32:01 > 2:32:04when this government is following absolutely in her track
2:32:04 > 2:32:07and actually, as Ken said, doing things she never did.
2:32:07 > 2:32:09She didn't dismantle the Health Service,
2:32:09 > 2:32:12nor did she make such deep cuts in benefits either.
2:32:12 > 2:32:14We're not dismantling the Health Service.
2:32:14 > 2:32:18What we are seeing is Thatcher Mark Two, but infinitely worse and deeper.
2:32:18 > 2:32:20OK, I'll come to you in a moment.
2:32:28 > 2:32:30We only have a few minutes left.
2:32:30 > 2:32:32I would like to get some more comments from the audience.
2:32:32 > 2:32:36I'll come to you, Ken, in a second. The man in spectacles there?
2:32:36 > 2:32:37Was it right to recall Parliament
2:32:37 > 2:32:41to eulogise Margaret Thatcher for so long?
2:32:41 > 2:32:47- Ken Clarke?- I was surprised it was done. It's never been done before.
2:32:47 > 2:32:50Actually, I sat through most of it, it was perfectly all right.
2:32:50 > 2:32:55Inevitably you start deteriorating into people re-running
2:32:55 > 2:33:00political arguments but you want to be tasteful and sensible,
2:33:00 > 2:33:03but these are divisive politics.
2:33:03 > 2:33:08The trouble was the 1980s was a deeply divided time.
2:33:08 > 2:33:12On the hard right and the hard left, people continue to create,
2:33:12 > 2:33:17for the benefit of today's young, a caricature of what it was about.
2:33:17 > 2:33:19The bitterness was not all caused by Margaret Thatcher,
2:33:19 > 2:33:23with Arthur Scargill being an innocent player in the division
2:33:23 > 2:33:25between the Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire coalfields,
2:33:25 > 2:33:28which David and I remember only too well.
2:33:28 > 2:33:32The nation was divided. Bitter and difficult changes were taking place.
2:33:32 > 2:33:34Then people add silly things like,
2:33:34 > 2:33:37"The present government is destroying the Health Service,
2:33:37 > 2:33:38"just like Mrs Thatcher."
2:33:38 > 2:33:41- The Health Service continued throughout Mrs Thatcher.- You didn't.
2:33:41 > 2:33:45Keith Joseph tried to reform as soon as she got in,
2:33:45 > 2:33:47because it was a hopeless bureaucracy,
2:33:47 > 2:33:50it was struggling to meet the demands upon it. That didn't work.
2:33:50 > 2:33:53I had long discussions with Margaret, we started a health reform
2:33:53 > 2:33:57to try to make it work, and were accused of privatising it.
2:33:57 > 2:34:02New Labour took the purchaser-provider divide,
2:34:02 > 2:34:04our approach to bringing in other providers,
2:34:04 > 2:34:08much further than before and it's silly to say,
2:34:08 > 2:34:12"This dreadful woman's destroying the National Health Service."
2:34:12 > 2:34:15- It's this government. This government!- I have to stop you all,
2:34:15 > 2:34:19in favour of the person in blue in the second row from the back.
2:34:19 > 2:34:22There's been a lot thrown round about history
2:34:22 > 2:34:25and how things have been inevitable in all the topics we've touched on
2:34:25 > 2:34:29and I'm a history student and I think a lot of people are misusing
2:34:29 > 2:34:34the idea of, everything's inevitable and how things are linked.
2:34:34 > 2:34:38I think a lot of what the discussion on Mrs Thatcher's been about
2:34:38 > 2:34:40is actually deflecting attention
2:34:40 > 2:34:42and denying responsibility from today's politicians
2:34:42 > 2:34:45for the problems they face by relating them to a time
2:34:45 > 2:34:51which, let's face it, was very, very different and was also 30 years ago.
2:34:51 > 2:34:55- OK.- It's good to learn from history rather than living in it, really.
2:34:55 > 2:34:57You, sir.
2:34:57 > 2:35:00I wasn't alive during her reign but parts of her legacy...
2:35:00 > 2:35:03- Her reign! - LAUGHTER
2:35:03 > 2:35:05I know what you mean.
2:35:05 > 2:35:09..but part of her legacy's still evident today and you can't fault her
2:35:09 > 2:35:11for the policies she tried to bring in
2:35:11 > 2:35:13with, as Charles said, the trade unions,
2:35:13 > 2:35:17the numbers going down from 29 million to two million,
2:35:17 > 2:35:20the privatisation she done and the other stuff.
2:35:20 > 2:35:24But most importantly, this country was seen as a laughing stock,
2:35:24 > 2:35:26the sick man of Europe,
2:35:26 > 2:35:29and we weren't at the end, so all credit for that.
2:35:29 > 2:35:32All three parties now believe in free-market economics
2:35:32 > 2:35:34combined with a social conscience.
2:35:34 > 2:35:37We have a different version, each of us,
2:35:37 > 2:35:41of what that means policy by policy, but that is a new consensus and
2:35:41 > 2:35:46the events of the 1980s shattered a nasty, dying and bitter consensus.
2:35:46 > 2:35:49The old left is now dead and we have right-of-centre parties.
2:35:52 > 2:35:54There are hands still up. I have to stop.
2:35:54 > 2:35:57MAN: You ought to be shouting about the social housing system!
2:35:57 > 2:35:59Our hour is up, unfortunately,
2:35:59 > 2:36:01and we have therefore to stop, I'm sorry.
2:36:01 > 2:36:04Next week, we're going to be in Aldershot,
2:36:04 > 2:36:07and the politicians on our panel, I don't know who they are yet,
2:36:07 > 2:36:12but they'll be joined by comedian and TV presenter Griff Rhys Jones
2:36:12 > 2:36:15and Daily Mail columnist Amanda Platell.
2:36:15 > 2:36:18The week after that, we're in Worcester.
2:36:18 > 2:36:21If you would like to come to Aldershot next week
2:36:21 > 2:36:24or Worcester the week after, you can apply to the website,
2:36:24 > 2:36:25the address is there.
2:36:25 > 2:36:30You can call us on:
2:36:30 > 2:36:31My thanks to our panel,
2:36:31 > 2:36:34my thanks to all of you who came here to Finchley.
2:36:34 > 2:36:38Particular thanks to the Catholic high school here who allowed us
2:36:38 > 2:36:41to take over their hall at very short notice for obvious reasons.
2:36:41 > 2:36:44From Question Time, until next Thursday, good night.
2:36:44 > 2:36:46APPLAUSE
2:37:02 > 2:37:05Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd