0:00:02 > 0:00:06Tonight we're in Aldershot and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14And good evening to you at home, good evening to our audience here
0:00:14 > 0:00:16and welcome to our panel -
0:00:16 > 0:00:19the former leader of the Conservative party, Michael Howard.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Liberal Democrat who used to be in the Cabinet looking after
0:00:25 > 0:00:27children's affairs, Sarah Teather,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30the Daily Mail columnist Amanda Platell,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33and the comedian and television presenter Griff Rhys Jones.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Excellent. Thank you very much.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50A question from Hector Cameron to kick off, please.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54Why should some people get more than £500 per week on benefits
0:00:54 > 0:00:59when I only earn £450 a week working 46 hours?
0:00:59 > 0:01:02Why should some people... This is what happened this week,
0:01:02 > 0:01:05the introduction of the cap on benefits at £500.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09Why should some people get over 500 when I only earn 450,
0:01:09 > 0:01:13- says Hector Cameron. As what, incidentally?- I do CNC engineering.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17- Engineering? - CNC work on CNC machines.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21- You probably won't know what that is.- No, I'm afraid I don't.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23I won't ask you. Amanda Platell.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27Well, Hector, the simple truth is it is completely unfair that people
0:01:27 > 0:01:31who go out to work like you take home less money than people
0:01:31 > 0:01:34who stay at home. This is quite...
0:01:34 > 0:01:36It's quite controversial, this cap,
0:01:36 > 0:01:40but it's probably the most popular thing that this government has ever
0:01:40 > 0:01:42brought in. I wish they were doing it...
0:01:42 > 0:01:44I know Iain Duncan Smith is doing it through conviction,
0:01:44 > 0:01:48I'm not sure David Cameron has embraced it for the same reason.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51But, basically, the cap is £26,000, which is
0:01:51 > 0:01:53the average take-home income.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58And you have to be earning £35,000 a year to have that £500
0:01:58 > 0:01:59in your pocket.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03And all I would say is, there had to be a huge change and these
0:02:03 > 0:02:04are huge changes,
0:02:04 > 0:02:08but underneath it all is a moral argument that anyone who goes out
0:02:08 > 0:02:13to work should not be worse off than someone who stays at home.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15And there are two simple points to make here.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19The benefit system is there for, has always been there for, people who
0:02:19 > 0:02:22cannot look after themselves, and people who fall on hard times.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24It is not a lifestyle choice.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27And too often in this country that's what it's become,
0:02:27 > 0:02:29and that's why it is so unfair to people like you.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Sarah Teather, you were part of this coalition government
0:02:40 > 0:02:43until a bit ago, you're still there presumably supporting.
0:02:43 > 0:02:44What do you think?
0:02:44 > 0:02:47I think the problem with a lot of the debate around this is that it
0:02:47 > 0:02:49misses the human cost involved.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52And I know that it sounds like a large amount of money,
0:02:52 > 0:02:55but if you're one of my constituents living in a very...
0:02:55 > 0:02:58an area with very high housing cost,
0:02:58 > 0:03:01you're going to face a really invidious choice when this
0:03:01 > 0:03:04benefit cap comes in. You will lose perhaps many hundreds of pounds.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08And the choice then for you is, do you move a long way away,
0:03:08 > 0:03:12do you move a long way out of London, away from your support network,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16away from where you're going to have any chance of getting work,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18where your children are in school?
0:03:18 > 0:03:23Or do you go into a much smaller property and become very overcrowded?
0:03:23 > 0:03:25Or do you split up your family?
0:03:25 > 0:03:29So we have to remember what the real cost of this type of policy is,
0:03:29 > 0:03:31and I don't think it's going to save any money.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34All of the evidence suggests that it is going to save very little money.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38It doesn't seem to be getting people back into work. In fact,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41it's likely to be counter-productive as people get moved a long way away
0:03:41 > 0:03:44from where they live and where they've previously been in work.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47And the danger is just that it's a political device.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50For me, this is about demonstrating whose side you're on
0:03:50 > 0:03:52and I don't like that type of politics.
0:03:52 > 0:03:53Let me go back to Hector.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00If, if...the landlords know that they get this rent
0:04:00 > 0:04:03from the government, so they keep the rents high.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05If they know their rents are going to be lower,
0:04:05 > 0:04:09- they'll have to lower their rents. But they charge.- Michael Howard.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Well, the question is right.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15Of course, Sarah's right too, there is a human cost involved.
0:04:15 > 0:04:20And all change of this kind will lead to some hard cases.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24And that is very, very regrettable.
0:04:24 > 0:04:25But the truth is that,
0:04:25 > 0:04:30quite apart from the moral argument which Amanda put forward, which
0:04:30 > 0:04:33I agree with, we have to understand
0:04:33 > 0:04:37that, as a country, we are in hock.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42And we just can't afford to carry on as we have been carrying on.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44But there's no evidence this will save any money.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47It will save money, it's bound to save money.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50- Why is it bound to save money? - Because people will be getting less.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52Let me finish.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55People will be getting less than they otherwise would have got.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59We are in the situation where we are borrowing money,
0:04:59 > 0:05:03believe it or not, from countries which have a far lower standard
0:05:03 > 0:05:06of living than we have, which don't have any welfare at all.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09And it is completely unsustainable,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12so we've got to start living within our means and this is
0:05:12 > 0:05:16one of the steps which is necessary in order to achieve that.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18- I need to...- No, hold on a second, I'll come to you in a moment.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22The figure offered is 110 million-a-year savings.
0:05:22 > 0:05:23Do you accept that figure?
0:05:23 > 0:05:25I don't know whether that's absolutely right.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27But these figures add up.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30This is not the only step which the Government's taking in order
0:05:30 > 0:05:34to reduce the welfare bill. And you have to add them all together
0:05:34 > 0:05:37and we have to save money in order to start living within our means.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40I'll come back to you, Sarah. Let Caroline Flint come in.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44The Government is borrowing 245 billion more pounds
0:05:44 > 0:05:47than they were planning to,
0:05:47 > 0:05:50because their economic policies are failing
0:05:50 > 0:05:52and they haven't got the jobs and growth....
0:05:52 > 0:05:53APPLAUSE
0:05:53 > 0:05:55..to get this country back on its feet.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58And, in answer to Hector's question,
0:05:58 > 0:06:02I fundamentally believe that actually people should be better off in work
0:06:02 > 0:06:08than on benefits. I also believe in a benefit cap, but one that can work.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12And the problem is, is that because there are different housing costs
0:06:12 > 0:06:15around the country, the Government have introduced
0:06:15 > 0:06:19this sort of standardised benefit cap that will cause problems.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23We argued that we should have localised benefit caps that
0:06:23 > 0:06:25did reflect some of the housing costs,
0:06:25 > 0:06:27and the truth is, particularly in London, and you make
0:06:27 > 0:06:31a very valid point about whether this will bring the rents down.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34On the front page of the Evening Standard tonight it says that
0:06:34 > 0:06:38rents have gone up by eight times in London, and the truth is, because
0:06:38 > 0:06:42there are so many people looking for private rented accommodation, and
0:06:42 > 0:06:46because we haven't got enough social homes, council homes to put these
0:06:46 > 0:06:50people into, we've got a problem that will emerge because of this.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53And the Government say they want to tackle idleness.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56Well, why are they making changes that are going to take money away
0:06:56 > 0:07:00from people who are actually in work and supporting them in work?
0:07:00 > 0:07:01It doesn't add up.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05They are putting through incompetent policies that actually aren't
0:07:05 > 0:07:06going to achieve what you want.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16Are you saying the principle is right but the execution is wrong?
0:07:16 > 0:07:19I think the principle is right, I think the execution is wrong, I don't
0:07:19 > 0:07:22think it takes account of different housing costs around the country.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24And it doesn't solve the problem.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28We need to build more social homes for people, that is vital.
0:07:32 > 0:07:33We certainly do.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37The number of social housing units fell dramatically under the last
0:07:37 > 0:07:40Labour government. But I'd like to ask Caroline this question.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43If you support regional caps on benefits,
0:07:43 > 0:07:47do you support regional benefit levels to start with?
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Because you can't have one without the other.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52No, I think there is a different issue when it comes to housing.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55If you look around the country, Michael, you can see that there are
0:07:55 > 0:07:57disparities in terms of housing costs.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00The ability in my constituency, in Doncaster,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04for people on relatively low medium incomes to buy a house is far
0:08:04 > 0:08:08greater opportunity than people on low middle incomes in, say, London.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12So I think it needs to reflect that. And the truth is, the truth is,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16people in work are having tax credits taken away from them,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19so the Government can't argue that they're supporting people in work
0:08:19 > 0:08:22because two-thirds of the people affected by some of those changes
0:08:22 > 0:08:26are working families who are trying to make ends meet and make work pay.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29The problem with this one overall cap is, what it does is
0:08:29 > 0:08:32disentangle the link that we have at the moment that recognises
0:08:32 > 0:08:35that housing costs different amounts in different areas.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38That's the reason why housing benefit rates are different
0:08:38 > 0:08:41in different areas. So, it doesn't make any sense.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43What really confuses me about this argument is...
0:08:43 > 0:08:46I've lived in Britain for a long time now, more than 25 years.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49I've known loads of people who, through their circumstances
0:08:49 > 0:08:51when their families grew or they lost their job or
0:08:51 > 0:08:54they got another job, they moved. They took their kids out of schools.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57They accepted that you don't have a God-given right to stay
0:08:57 > 0:08:59in the same house.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01And I think that your protestations
0:09:01 > 0:09:05and Caroline's seem to say that it's a different set of rules.
0:09:05 > 0:09:06This goes back to the moral argument.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09- Why should there be a different set of rules for people...- Wait!
0:09:09 > 0:09:11- CAROLINE:- Where are these people going to go?
0:09:11 > 0:09:13There isn't social housing for them to go into
0:09:13 > 0:09:15beyond the inner city of London.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19- I think it's been very courageous of the Government to do it.- Griff.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22Lots of people want to speak but, Griff, your turn.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Well, I'm sitting on the edge here.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29And I basically agree with everybody and disagree with them all
0:09:29 > 0:09:30at the same time.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34The problem that comes here is that we have a welfare system that
0:09:34 > 0:09:39has not really been sorted for quite a long time.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41It's been fiddled with.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45And we live in an unsustainable... equation.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47The equation goes like this.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50We are... our welfare is billowing and it was predicted,
0:09:50 > 0:09:55at the time of the Lisbon Accord by economists who came together
0:09:55 > 0:09:59and said, "Look, Western Europe is not basically going to be able
0:09:59 > 0:10:03"to afford what it wants to do in the way of welfare.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06"And it will have to take some pain along the way."
0:10:06 > 0:10:09But what I also recognise, and what is very, very true,
0:10:09 > 0:10:12is that because we have left it so late, because we're now
0:10:12 > 0:10:15engaged in a form of tinkering, we're going to cause some real,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17genuine pain to people
0:10:17 > 0:10:22who have become reliant on a system which is so complicated that,
0:10:22 > 0:10:24as we sit to discuss it here,
0:10:24 > 0:10:28we can't even find a sort of conclusion about what we are
0:10:28 > 0:10:32talking about, and this is the first of 20, at least 20 measures
0:10:32 > 0:10:35which are going to play with a really complicated welfare system.
0:10:35 > 0:10:36There are...
0:10:36 > 0:10:40We have a situation in this country where we have encouraged people,
0:10:40 > 0:10:41quite rightly,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45to stay in higher education till the age of 21 or later,
0:10:45 > 0:10:49and then we retire at a relatively early age, I mean, and then
0:10:49 > 0:10:52we try to live, thanks to the National Health Service,
0:10:52 > 0:10:54till beyond 100.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57And under those circumstances, the actual time we spend
0:10:57 > 0:11:01as productive people putting money into the pot is not quite working.
0:11:01 > 0:11:02It's not adding up.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09The woman there in the striped...
0:11:09 > 0:11:11Striped thing, yes.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13I would quite like to agree with Amanda.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16I don't understand why there seems to be two different rules,
0:11:16 > 0:11:20one if you're on benefits and one if you're working.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23I work. I can't afford to live in London - so guess what? I don't.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30Yes? Woman up there in white.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33There's only a certain number of people in the country that
0:11:33 > 0:11:37the money is taken from their taxes to pay the benefits.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41And we can't already sort out the benefits that people are getting,
0:11:41 > 0:11:45so why is it that when people from abroad come into our country, they
0:11:45 > 0:11:49are not here for very long before they also are receiving benefits?
0:11:49 > 0:11:52We can't make what we've got go round with the people that we've got
0:11:52 > 0:11:54here already without this additional number of people
0:11:54 > 0:11:57- coming in from outside.- All right.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03We'll take the woman there and then I'll come to you, Sarah.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06The point that everyone seems to have overlooked is that the vast
0:12:06 > 0:12:10majority of benefits recipients in this country are working people.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12- APPLAUSE - And...
0:12:14 > 0:12:18What the benefit system is actually doing is subsidising big companies
0:12:18 > 0:12:20to pay starvation wages,
0:12:20 > 0:12:23and the solution would be to raise the minimum wage....
0:12:23 > 0:12:24APPLAUSE
0:12:24 > 0:12:28If the minimum wage were raised to a living standard,
0:12:28 > 0:12:31then not only would fewer people claim benefits,
0:12:31 > 0:12:33but there would be greater tax revenue as well.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35And are you in favour of, in that context,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38- of a cap on welfare payments? - No, I don't think it's the answer.
0:12:38 > 0:12:39Michael Howard,
0:12:39 > 0:12:42what do you say to the idea of raising the minimum wage?
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Well, it sounds very attractive in principle.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48But there would be many companies that simply couldn't afford
0:12:48 > 0:12:51to pay a higher minimum wage,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54and they would then start laying people off.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56They might even go out of business.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59And the result might be that you would actually have fewer people
0:12:59 > 0:13:01in work than you started off with.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04That would not be what you want, and certainly not what I want.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06Isn't that the same argument the Tories used
0:13:06 > 0:13:09- when it was first introduced? - And it all depends on the level
0:13:09 > 0:13:11at which you put the minimum wage.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14- Of course.- Exactly. - £50 an hour might be tricky.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17And if you increase it, you may well get the kind of...
0:13:17 > 0:13:19This is the argument you used when the minimum wage first came in.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23You said all hell will be let loose, jobs will disappear. Did they?
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Depending on the level at which it was fixed.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27The level it was fixed, did they disappear? No.
0:13:27 > 0:13:29Because it was fixed at a low level.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32The answer to this is also about access to jobs.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35There's something like 1.5 million people working part-time
0:13:35 > 0:13:37who are desperate to work full-time,
0:13:37 > 0:13:40and they really do want to do that but the jobs are not there.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42And the truth is,
0:13:42 > 0:13:45unemployment has gone up again in the figures this week.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Unemployment is higher today than it was in 2010, and Osborne and Cameron
0:13:49 > 0:13:52have to listen to organisations like the IMF and others who say...
0:13:52 > 0:13:55- AMANDA:- Let's not talk about the IMF! - No, I'm sorry.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57..who say you have to do something to tackle growth,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00cos the way out of this is through jobs and growth
0:14:00 > 0:14:02and giving people the chance to earn more.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Let's just come back, come back to the question Hector asked
0:14:05 > 0:14:08originally. The man there in the very back row, you, sir.
0:14:08 > 0:14:13The majority of welfare goes on pensions, not on benefits.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15Shouldn't we be focusing on pensions instead?
0:14:15 > 0:14:19And to the lady talking about immigrants claiming benefits,
0:14:19 > 0:14:22the majority of immigrants, the claim rate amongst immigrants
0:14:22 > 0:14:25is much lower, of benefits, than it is amongst the general population.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29So are you saying you'd favour a cut in state pensions,
0:14:29 > 0:14:30as a way of reducing the welfare bill?
0:14:30 > 0:14:33We're focusing on the wrong thing by focusing on welfare
0:14:33 > 0:14:35in a divisive campaign by the Conservatives,
0:14:35 > 0:14:38when the whole point is that we should focus on pensions
0:14:38 > 0:14:41but we won't because Cameron has made a promise about not
0:14:41 > 0:14:43cutting pensions because that's where his voter base is.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45You'd like to see pensions cut?
0:14:45 > 0:14:46I think it has to be put on the table.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50Pensions have to be put on the table instead of this divisive attack
0:14:50 > 0:14:51on people on benefits.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53The woman here in the third row.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Honestly, I think instead of cutting benefits
0:14:56 > 0:14:59we should be not encouraging big developers to move into our areas.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02I'm part of a campaign to save a company,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05to stop it from being turned into a McDonald's drive-thru.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08It does not offer a full-time liveable wage.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11Instead of encouraging people to go to these companies,
0:15:11 > 0:15:12why not encourage local businesses?
0:15:12 > 0:15:16Why not encourage local communities to look after themselves
0:15:16 > 0:15:19- to basically stop other people from going on benefits?- OK.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21And the man up there on the far left. You, sir.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25I just want to ask Michael Howard.
0:15:25 > 0:15:30Tesco spent 1.2 billion in costs of winding up their US arm this week.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34Couldn't that have been spent on giving their workers a better wage?
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Well, Tesco will make their own decisions.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39They're an independent, private company and they will
0:15:39 > 0:15:43make their own decisions as to how that money can best be used.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48And the more successful Tesco are, the more shops they open,
0:15:48 > 0:15:52then the more people they employ and the better off everyone is.
0:15:52 > 0:15:57They're the best people to decide how to spend that money.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00What you're saying is that they actually can't afford it.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04Clearly they can because, like I said, they spent 1.2 billion.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06I'm not saying they can't afford it.
0:16:06 > 0:16:10They're the best people to decide how to use their resources.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13And they're using it in a way which makes them more prosperous,
0:16:13 > 0:16:17which creates more jobs and which is for the benefit of the country.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20One more point from over there and then, Sarah, one point from you.
0:16:20 > 0:16:21Yes?
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Just going back to the point about a living wage,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27you say that companies may not be happy to pay it, but yet again
0:16:27 > 0:16:32this week we found out another company paid no tax to this country.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35And it seems that your government are more concerned with keeping
0:16:35 > 0:16:38your friends in business happy
0:16:38 > 0:16:41than keeping the welfare and the happiness of your population
0:16:41 > 0:16:44in general, because you'd rather not upset the businesses
0:16:44 > 0:16:47and upset people who are trying to make their way in life.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57I just want to come back on some of the points being raised.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Just one point. We can't go on for much longer on this.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02Consistently people are saying it's going to save a lot of money.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04I think we have to put it in perspective.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07Many people in my constituency who are going to be affected by this
0:17:07 > 0:17:09have been housed by the council.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11That means the council's going to have to move them.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13There will be costs,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16so even if it looks like there are some savings in welfare, there are
0:17:16 > 0:17:19going to be massive costs to councils in order to deal with this.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21There won't be any savings, and Eric Pickles knows this
0:17:21 > 0:17:25because we know that he was writing letters around Government
0:17:25 > 0:17:29that ended up in the Observer about 18 months ago,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32so we know full well that there really aren't going to be...
0:17:32 > 0:17:34Your Liberal colleagues have voted with this in Government.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37- You may not have, but the rest did. - I didn't vote with it.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40You seem to differ from the Government on quite a lot of things.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42Not on quite a lot of things, no.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44You do still approve of the coalition?
0:17:44 > 0:17:47- I do approve of the coalition. - You sure?- But on this...
0:17:47 > 0:17:49- LAUGHTER - On this...
0:17:49 > 0:17:51I don't like this type of politics.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54The setting up of dividing lines just to prove which side you're on.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56It's not good for the country.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00I just wanted to say that the examples of bad practice,
0:18:00 > 0:18:05whether it's people exploiting the system, the welfare system,
0:18:05 > 0:18:09or people being hurt, individuals being hurt
0:18:09 > 0:18:12by the welfare system, or, indeed, businesses,
0:18:12 > 0:18:16individual businesses that don't pay any tax
0:18:16 > 0:18:20and become a sort of exemplar of bad behaviour,
0:18:20 > 0:18:26don't actually help us with trying to deal with the major problem.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29- The major problem is still... - They're exceptional cases.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33Exceptional cases which tend to become part of the political
0:18:33 > 0:18:36language don't really help us in this problem.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39We will go on to another question, thanks.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41APPLAUSE
0:18:41 > 0:18:43It's a good debate.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47You can join in on text or Twitter, as you know.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53And you can text us.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57The red button, if you push it, will tell you what others are...
0:18:57 > 0:19:01texting. A question now from Alison Fox, please. Alison Fox.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Are we all Thatcherites now?
0:19:06 > 0:19:08Are we Thatcherites now?
0:19:08 > 0:19:10This is in the light of what the
0:19:10 > 0:19:12Prime Minister said yesterday,
0:19:12 > 0:19:14before Lady Thatcher's funeral,
0:19:14 > 0:19:16- on the radio, apparently.- Yes.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19He said, "In a sense, we are all Thatcherites now."
0:19:19 > 0:19:23So we just want to tease this out a bit with Michael Howard, perhaps.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26- Michael?- Well, in a sense we are.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29- No surprise that I agree with the Prime Minister.- What does it mean?
0:19:29 > 0:19:31Well, I think it means this.
0:19:31 > 0:19:37Let me suggest a test, which you can apply to this argument.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41We've had 13 years of Labour government
0:19:41 > 0:19:45between Margaret Thatcher's leaving office and today.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51If you look back on the major reforms which she put in place,
0:19:51 > 0:19:55reform of the trade unions, privatisation...
0:19:56 > 0:20:01..13 years of Labour government didn't reverse any of them.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03Look at the tax rate.
0:20:03 > 0:20:09Not long before she became Prime Minister, income tax was at 98%.
0:20:09 > 0:20:15It was reduced gradually under her office to 40 pence in the pound.
0:20:15 > 0:20:19And it stayed the maximum rate of income taxed at 40p in the pound
0:20:19 > 0:20:23until just a few days before the 2010 election.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27So if you look back at the major reforms which she put in place,
0:20:27 > 0:20:32very controversial at the time, they've largely been accepted.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36The gap between the major parties now
0:20:36 > 0:20:41is much smaller than it was when I entered Parliament in 1983.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45Michael Foot was leading the Labour Party, they were committed to more
0:20:45 > 0:20:49public ownership, higher taxation, unilateral nuclear disarmament.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52The gap has closed, largely because
0:20:52 > 0:20:56the Labour Party has moved towards us, and not vice versa.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59And in that sense, we are all Thatcherites now.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01So you mean we're all Conservatives now?
0:21:02 > 0:21:04I think...
0:21:04 > 0:21:07I think Margaret Thatcher won the major arguments
0:21:07 > 0:21:10and that's responsible for a new -
0:21:10 > 0:21:14divisive figure though she was in her time - a new consensus.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16Of course we don't agree on everything,
0:21:16 > 0:21:20but on the major issues, yes, we're all Thatcherites now.
0:21:20 > 0:21:21Caroline Flint.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24Um, I am certainly not a Thatcherite.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29I profoundly disagree with many policies that Margaret Thatcher
0:21:29 > 0:21:30led on in government.
0:21:30 > 0:21:36I think she oversaw mass unemployment in our country, I think
0:21:36 > 0:21:39even though clearly, in terms of parts of our industry
0:21:39 > 0:21:42during that time, it had to change, I think
0:21:42 > 0:21:45she devastated communities by treating hard-working people
0:21:45 > 0:21:48in our industrial heartlands as the enemy within.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50And I think some of the legacy of Margaret Thatcher...
0:21:50 > 0:21:53It was specifically the miners, wasn't it?
0:21:53 > 0:21:55That wasn't a general attack on people in industry.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58- Well, if you look at... - It was about the miners' strike.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01And what she did, though, David, was rather,
0:22:01 > 0:22:04in terms of her head-to-head with people like Arthur Scargill,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07she broadened that out to devastate mining communities
0:22:07 > 0:22:11and steel communities, and the legacy of that is there today.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13Many people, many men...
0:22:13 > 0:22:16We were just talking about welfare.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19Many men were put on incapacity benefit as a way to hide
0:22:19 > 0:22:22the unemployment figures. It was unacceptable.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26It was unacceptable to me that she didn't support economic sanctions
0:22:26 > 0:22:29against South Africa. It was unacceptable that she
0:22:29 > 0:22:32supported the poll tax. It was unacceptable to me that she
0:22:32 > 0:22:36stigmatised gay and lesbian people through section 28.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38So I am not a Thatcherite.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41But all parties have to adapt to change.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45The Labour government introduced a national minimum wage.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49The Tories and the Liberal Democrats voted against it.
0:22:49 > 0:22:53They wouldn't change it now, so are they all Blairites?
0:22:53 > 0:22:56APPLAUSE
0:23:01 > 0:23:08Why did your two Labour Prime Ministers make a point of inviting
0:23:08 > 0:23:13Lady Thatcher to Number 10, hosting her, shaking hands on the steps?
0:23:13 > 0:23:16- Were you in favour of that? - I think... Well, I think...
0:23:16 > 0:23:19- Michael Howard is right?- I don't think that means that they agree
0:23:19 > 0:23:22with all the policies that she led on in government for one minute.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25You wouldn't have invited her if you'd been Prime Minister?
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I think there's lots of things that happen in politics and,
0:23:28 > 0:23:30rather like the funeral this week, which was agreed to,
0:23:30 > 0:23:34I understand, I don't know the details of it, by Gordon Brown
0:23:34 > 0:23:37and Tony Blair, some of the arrangements were agreed to before.
0:23:37 > 0:23:39Some of it is about what you do in politics.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42We do not spend our time in the House of Commons attacking each other
0:23:42 > 0:23:43in the corridors.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46I think there'd be people having strokes and heart attacks
0:23:46 > 0:23:49if they spent their time so hyped up on that,
0:23:49 > 0:23:52but you can be polite, you can respect people
0:23:52 > 0:23:57and I have said she deserves credit for the fact that she overcame
0:23:57 > 0:24:00opposition in her party to become the first woman leader.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04She did win three general elections, but I do not believe that
0:24:04 > 0:24:07overall what she did for our country was good.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12And the legacy of that in communities is still being felt today.
0:24:12 > 0:24:13You, sir.
0:24:16 > 0:24:17- Yes?- Thank you.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21Caroline, you mentioned Mrs Thatcher's policies in South Africa.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24Two or three weeks ago there was a wonderful article
0:24:24 > 0:24:27in The Times by one of her ambassadorial staff that said
0:24:27 > 0:24:30she was for inclusion because she didn't feel that economic sanctions
0:24:30 > 0:24:33would be productive and you'd only further isolate South Africa.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36But yet in your final sentence you said you had to be polite
0:24:36 > 0:24:39and respectful, and that's exactly what she was trying to achieve,
0:24:39 > 0:24:43so whilst there was an outside view that she was being confrontational
0:24:43 > 0:24:45and gladiatorial with South Africa,
0:24:45 > 0:24:47that was the furthest thing she wanted to do.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49She wanted to take an inclusive route.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51The problem was, both anti-apartheid...
0:24:51 > 0:24:54I'm sorry, but at the time, and I was
0:24:54 > 0:24:58involved in campaigning against apartheid in South Africa, but
0:24:58 > 0:25:03at the time anti-apartheid and the ANC said, we need economic sanctions.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05That is what they were asking for.
0:25:05 > 0:25:08People in South Africa, black people, were being treated appallingly.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11Their economic circumstances were bad anyway.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14And that is one thing she refused to do.
0:25:14 > 0:25:15Let's not go down this road.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17What the Prime Minister said was that,
0:25:17 > 0:25:20"We are all, in a sense, Thatcherites now."
0:25:20 > 0:25:23Griff Rhys Jones, do you think we're all Thatcherites now?
0:25:23 > 0:25:28Well, we have funerals to reach a state of closure, don't we?
0:25:28 > 0:25:32And I really think it's time we all moved on.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35APPLAUSE
0:25:40 > 0:25:42When I was a boy,
0:25:42 > 0:25:46we were slightly brought up with an obsession with the Second World War.
0:25:46 > 0:25:47Everything was related to the war
0:25:47 > 0:25:49and we couldn't watch a TV programme without it
0:25:49 > 0:25:52being about the war, and now the only historical thing that
0:25:52 > 0:25:55seems to have happened to Britain since then is Thatcher.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59I feel that we are, in a way, Thatcher's children, but one
0:25:59 > 0:26:03of the things that's very important to me is that we're being accused
0:26:03 > 0:26:06now - we're digging up apartheid again, digging up all sorts of....
0:26:06 > 0:26:08Either Thatcher was a marvellous thing,
0:26:08 > 0:26:11but also a sort of rather strange idea that we, as a nation,
0:26:11 > 0:26:16have become people who are extremely greedy as a result of Mrs Thatcher.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19A sort of nonsense notion, we are
0:26:19 > 0:26:22still human beings with our own decisions to make
0:26:22 > 0:26:25and we should stick by those and believe in ourselves
0:26:25 > 0:26:28and start looking to the future instead of referring
0:26:28 > 0:26:31all the time to what Mrs Thatcher did and what she achieved.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40You could say there's an Attlee generation as well
0:26:40 > 0:26:41as a Thatcher generation.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44Well, we don't hear so much from them, do we, these days?
0:26:44 > 0:26:48- I don't know. Sarah Teather.- I think we are Thatcher's children.
0:26:48 > 0:26:50Certainly, if I think back,
0:26:50 > 0:26:52I can't remember anything before she came to power.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54- AMANDA:- She asked, were we Thatcherites.- Exactly.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57I was about to say, we're Thatcher's children
0:26:57 > 0:26:58but I don't think we're all Thatcherites.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01I'm certainly not a Thatcherite.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03In terms of my politics,
0:27:03 > 0:27:05it was formed out of opposing Margaret Thatcher.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08I can't remember anything before she came to power,
0:27:08 > 0:27:11and all of my political growing up was formed by disagreeing
0:27:11 > 0:27:13with almost everything that she did.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16And I've continued to disagree with an awful lot of what she did.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19Why weren't those things undone then?
0:27:19 > 0:27:22The key things - trade union reform, for instance, wasn't changed,
0:27:22 > 0:27:26privatisation - nobody is suggesting re-nationalising everything.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28You can disagree with an awful lot of...
0:27:28 > 0:27:30But these are the main planks Michael is putting forward.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33It doesn't mean that it's right to undo everything
0:27:33 > 0:27:35and, on some things, we're not going to go back to suddenly
0:27:35 > 0:27:37nationalising all of the industries again.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40But there are lots of things on which I profoundly disagreed
0:27:40 > 0:27:43and which were reversed and which we wouldn't want to do again.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46I profoundly disagree with her attitudes towards Europe,
0:27:46 > 0:27:48for example, her attitude towards the poorest, her attitude
0:27:48 > 0:27:52around unemployment, thinking it was OK to let unemployment rise,
0:27:52 > 0:27:56rather than actually seeing that it was really important
0:27:56 > 0:27:57to focus on getting people into work.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00Will you ever credit her with the fact that, when she came to power,
0:28:00 > 0:28:03she inherited rising unemployment and she brought it down?
0:28:03 > 0:28:07It just seems like there are endless lies, like about South Africa,
0:28:07 > 0:28:10about the notion of society, about unemployment.
0:28:10 > 0:28:11She brought unemployment down.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14There were more people working when she left power.
0:28:14 > 0:28:20This country was a cot case when she took over and even Russia
0:28:20 > 0:28:22wouldn't buy goods from us because they were badly made,
0:28:22 > 0:28:26they couldn't deliver them on time and we couldn't keep to any agenda
0:28:26 > 0:28:29because of the unions. She changed that.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31Harold Wilson closed more mines than Margaret Thatcher.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33It was the Tories who got rid of her!
0:28:33 > 0:28:36Tony Blair oversaw more of the closure of manufacturing
0:28:36 > 0:28:38in this country than Margaret Thatcher did.
0:28:38 > 0:28:42Can we just get a bit of perspective? Without her,
0:28:42 > 0:28:46this country would be, you know, the cot case of Europe, and it ended up
0:28:46 > 0:28:49the third or fourth richest economy in the world when she left.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52That creates jobs and that created a future for people in this
0:28:52 > 0:28:54country, people like me. And I would say, with her example
0:28:54 > 0:28:58as first woman Prime Minister, people like both of you here too.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06The woman on the gangway. Yes.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09I don't actually like being categorised as one thing or another.
0:29:09 > 0:29:10I'm actually my own person
0:29:10 > 0:29:14and I'm not a Thatcherite, I'm a nothingite!
0:29:14 > 0:29:18You know, it's like, I have my own beliefs, I don't live in the past.
0:29:18 > 0:29:19I'm looking towards the future.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22And I don't think there's anything to be gained by keep
0:29:22 > 0:29:26going over and over, and over things that have already been debated for
0:29:26 > 0:29:31the last 20-odd years, and why don't we move on, and look to the future?
0:29:31 > 0:29:35We don't have to change everything, like the recent coalition has done,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38as soon as you get into power you've got to undo everything and then
0:29:38 > 0:29:43you make a real mess of everything, and it costs more, and more money.
0:29:43 > 0:29:47OK. And you, sir, in the middle. Third row from the back, there.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50Today it was announced in Liverpool that Anne Williams
0:29:50 > 0:29:55died of her illness, her son died, Kevin, died in Hillsborough
0:29:55 > 0:29:59and he never saw justice because of Margaret Thatcher,
0:29:59 > 0:30:03and is Cameron really suggesting that the people of Liverpool,
0:30:03 > 0:30:06Yorkshire, the miners, are Thatcherites
0:30:06 > 0:30:09because he's seriously, seriously deluded.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12All right, I think we might...
0:30:12 > 0:30:14Don't you think, though, in a funny way, they are
0:30:14 > 0:30:17because they seem to be unable to forget Mrs Thatcher,
0:30:17 > 0:30:20just as Michael doesn't seem to be able to forget her either.
0:30:20 > 0:30:22I just think, to a certain extent, we do have to try
0:30:22 > 0:30:27and bury the past, move on and accept that what we've done is move...
0:30:27 > 0:30:29One thing that is good that has happened, in a strange way,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32is we have moved more slightly more to the middle
0:30:32 > 0:30:37and it will be a pity if the current economic crisis drives us,
0:30:37 > 0:30:43as a nation, into a...a right and left position again.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47I think we are debating what works instead of where we stand
0:30:47 > 0:30:48in the political spectrum.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50We're halfway through, Michael, just a brief comment.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52I just want to say a word about Hillsborough
0:30:52 > 0:30:55because I care deeply about the,
0:30:55 > 0:30:57about the 96 who lost their lives at Hillsborough
0:30:57 > 0:31:01and, indeed, I started an investigation internally
0:31:01 > 0:31:02when I was Home Secretary,
0:31:02 > 0:31:06which ultimately led to the further investigations.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08I can tell you this,
0:31:08 > 0:31:12that if Margaret Thatcher had known that the police
0:31:12 > 0:31:17had behaved as we now know they behaved at Hillsborough,
0:31:17 > 0:31:21she would have been at least as deeply shocked
0:31:21 > 0:31:23as you, sir, and as I.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27OK. Do you want to have a say? Go on then.
0:31:27 > 0:31:29I was just going to say, do you not think that,
0:31:29 > 0:31:31regardless of, sort of, separate beliefs and everything,
0:31:31 > 0:31:34do you not think that still, like, for our, sort of, figurehead,
0:31:34 > 0:31:36our country's image, do you not think that
0:31:36 > 0:31:39that was a ridiculously, kind of, inflammatory thing to say
0:31:39 > 0:31:41at a time when the country is so divided?
0:31:41 > 0:31:44- What, for David Cameron to say?- Yeah.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47It was, I actually haven't had the chance to answer this question
0:31:47 > 0:31:49so, very quickly, I think it was, I agree with you, I think
0:31:49 > 0:31:50it was a little bit silly.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53He should not have gone on your show and given an interview
0:31:53 > 0:31:55which looked as though he was trying to capitalise
0:31:55 > 0:31:56upon Lady Thatcher's death...
0:31:56 > 0:31:59It wasn't to me, it was on the radio.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02Oh, I apologise, I thought everything great appeared on your show!
0:32:02 > 0:32:05It does but he said other things...
0:32:05 > 0:32:07But he said that we were all Thatcherites now, we're not.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10I think Andrew Marr got it right with the History Of The World show
0:32:10 > 0:32:13when he said we're Thatcher's children cos we are products of it
0:32:13 > 0:32:15but not all children like their mothers.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19- Right. Let's go on. - LAUGHTER
0:32:19 > 0:32:22Lucy Ivey, a question from you, please.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Should vaccinations for children be compulsory?
0:32:25 > 0:32:27Should vaccinations for children be compulsory?
0:32:27 > 0:32:29This, of course, in the light of what's going on in Wales
0:32:29 > 0:32:31with a number of people who have not been vaccinated
0:32:31 > 0:32:36and are getting measles, and it is compulsory in some countries -
0:32:36 > 0:32:38in the United States, in particular.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41Should it be compulsory here? Griff Rhys Jones?
0:32:41 > 0:32:43No, I don't think it should be compulsory
0:32:43 > 0:32:48but I think we are facing a difficult thing with self-diagnosis.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50It's complicated for me.
0:32:50 > 0:32:54My father was a doctor and he hated watching Dr Kildare.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57He wouldn't allow us to watch it because the following day,
0:32:57 > 0:33:01you're all, many of you, too young even to remember Dr Kildare,
0:33:01 > 0:33:04but the following, it's probably the same with Casualty,
0:33:04 > 0:33:07the following day his patients would arrive exhibiting exactly
0:33:07 > 0:33:11the same symptoms as they had seen in the programme.
0:33:11 > 0:33:16And I think what happened here was tragic and bad,
0:33:16 > 0:33:21and that is that a media debate started on the basis of some
0:33:21 > 0:33:26rather dodgy evidence which would have been better discussed
0:33:26 > 0:33:29by clinicians in the safety of their own hospital.
0:33:29 > 0:33:36And we've had another scare with, with the heart centre in Leeds,
0:33:36 > 0:33:39which was similarly discussed in the papers.
0:33:39 > 0:33:45The evidence, which should have been left to doctors to discuss privately,
0:33:45 > 0:33:47became a public issue.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51When these things happen people naturally become scared
0:33:51 > 0:33:53and I think that's a pity.
0:33:53 > 0:33:58I was brought up to trust doctors and, to a certain extent, we should.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01Very difficult sometimes because it's also true to say that there have
0:34:01 > 0:34:04been some terrible public health scares and, particularly,
0:34:04 > 0:34:08in the 19th century where it was newspapers that led the way.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12But the idea behind this is that in the United States
0:34:12 > 0:34:16it's seen as a social duty to be vaccinated against measles
0:34:16 > 0:34:19because if you're not your child is going to give it to another child,
0:34:19 > 0:34:20or to another child
0:34:20 > 0:34:23- and therefore you actually have a social obligation.- Well...
0:34:23 > 0:34:26it's complicated because there is an element of personal freedom here
0:34:26 > 0:34:28but we also know that the use of antibiotics
0:34:28 > 0:34:32is now becoming a really dreadful problem, future problem,
0:34:32 > 0:34:38for the world and the idea of not, not using the law to control
0:34:38 > 0:34:42the use of medicines is, obviously, becoming very, very complicated.
0:34:43 > 0:34:45You, sir, over there.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48Like Griff's father, I am also a doctor and I sympathise,
0:34:48 > 0:34:51I empathise with his sentiments regarding TV programmes
0:34:51 > 0:34:54concerning medicine in hospitals but I would say that
0:34:54 > 0:34:57there is no ethical problem with compulsory vaccination.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00We already have laws in progress that allow
0:35:00 > 0:35:02the detention of people with communicable diseases
0:35:02 > 0:35:06who refuse treatment, such as tuberculosis, in hospitals.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09Counterbalanced with the severity of diseases like measles,
0:35:09 > 0:35:10measles is a killer,
0:35:10 > 0:35:14there is absolutely no doubt about that, it kills young children.
0:35:14 > 0:35:19For me, there is no ethical problem that would, you know,
0:35:19 > 0:35:22prevent me from administering compulsory vaccinations,
0:35:22 > 0:35:26when one looks at the severity of the diseases involved.
0:35:26 > 0:35:28The reason why we're talking about this
0:35:28 > 0:35:34is around, what, ten years ago, a guy called Andrew...
0:35:34 > 0:35:36- Wakefield, was it Wakefield?- Yes.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39He decided, based on what was some dodgy research,
0:35:39 > 0:35:41that there was a link between the MMR vaccination...
0:35:41 > 0:35:44We know about that cos Griff was talking about that.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46Yeah, but just, you know,
0:35:46 > 0:35:48the guy has been found to be completely wrong,
0:35:48 > 0:35:50he was struck off by the GMC
0:35:50 > 0:35:52and he's somewhere in America now doing something else
0:35:52 > 0:35:56but the truth, the result of this, is a combination of what he's said,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00I'm afraid a combination of the influence of sections of the press,
0:36:00 > 0:36:04I'm afraid, including the Daily Mail, and some politicians as well.
0:36:04 > 0:36:09We had around 70 cases, I think, ten years ago, of measles, a year,
0:36:09 > 0:36:11it is now up at around 2,000
0:36:11 > 0:36:14and what we are seeing is the consequences
0:36:14 > 0:36:17of people not getting their children vaccinated,
0:36:17 > 0:36:20who were scared into doing it, and, therefore, a number of children
0:36:20 > 0:36:22in Wales and elsewhere now are suffering....
0:36:22 > 0:36:25But that is the background, what about the question,
0:36:25 > 0:36:27which was, should they be made to be vaccinated compulsorily?
0:36:27 > 0:36:30Well, the point about the question is this is that in America
0:36:30 > 0:36:32people aren't forced to vaccinate
0:36:32 > 0:36:35because there's a difference between saying you have to vaccinate
0:36:35 > 0:36:37and saying if your child isn't vaccinated
0:36:37 > 0:36:39you can't come into a public school. There is a difference in that.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41- Is there a real difference? - I think there is...
0:36:41 > 0:36:45Not for most people, surely, because you can't educate your children.
0:36:45 > 0:36:47You are giving a choice to someone not to vaccinate
0:36:47 > 0:36:48but there are consequences with that.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51But we used to have very high rates of vaccination
0:36:51 > 0:36:53and the reason why they've dipped
0:36:53 > 0:36:56is because of the scare stories that were put around about MMR.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58Even people, for example,
0:36:58 > 0:37:01who suggested that we should have single jabs.
0:37:01 > 0:37:02There was an inference in that
0:37:02 > 0:37:05that there was something wrong with the vaccination...
0:37:05 > 0:37:07But I'm interested in your view about the ethics
0:37:07 > 0:37:08of saying to people.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11You say in the States you're only banned from public education.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14- So, you can go around the streets and still...- Yes, that's right.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17- That's right.- So, it seems a rather weird thing to do
0:37:17 > 0:37:19because you're not protected by going to a public school.
0:37:19 > 0:37:23What I'm trying to clarify here, David, it is not compulsory
0:37:23 > 0:37:25but you're not allowed admission to areas where it could put
0:37:25 > 0:37:28children most at risk. And that's the public school system.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31What I'm saying is, is that it is fair to have a debate about that.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34I'm not sure if that is the answer.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36I think the answer is to get back to where we were,
0:37:36 > 0:37:40which was high rates of take-up in every community in our country
0:37:40 > 0:37:42that brought measles down to 70 a year
0:37:42 > 0:37:46and was going down even further but as a result of the scaremongering,
0:37:46 > 0:37:49as a result of newspapers being irresponsible,
0:37:49 > 0:37:50and other individuals,
0:37:50 > 0:37:53a whole generation of kids did not get vaccinated,
0:37:53 > 0:37:55and it put a whole number of other people at risk.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58Can I just say, this absolutely infuriates me.
0:37:58 > 0:38:02This is the reason it is up to, it is a newspaper's responsibility,
0:38:02 > 0:38:04and I'm proud that the Daily Mail takes this very seriously,
0:38:04 > 0:38:06to report the facts.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09You know, there was a man who claimed...
0:38:09 > 0:38:10- LAUGHTER - He was struck off!
0:38:10 > 0:38:12He was struck off by the GMC!
0:38:14 > 0:38:16We hear at the time that he made these claims
0:38:16 > 0:38:20- they were taken as credible... - By the Daily Mail.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23That is ridiculous, they were taken by everyone, Caroline,
0:38:23 > 0:38:27don't be silly, darling. It makes you just sounds silly to say that.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29It was run by every single...
0:38:29 > 0:38:31can you just let me finish for a second
0:38:31 > 0:38:33because you've been quite having a good time today.
0:38:33 > 0:38:37And who was, there was one person who could have stood up,
0:38:37 > 0:38:39and we asked again and again,
0:38:39 > 0:38:43"Could you please just say that you are sure that this jab is safe
0:38:43 > 0:38:46"and that you will give it to your son," and that man was Tony Blair.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50- You misunderstand science. - Excuse me, let me just finished.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53He refused to say whether or not he would give his own son the jab...
0:38:53 > 0:38:56That was an immoral question to ask him.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58..that could have doused the whole argument.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00I'm sorry, but to suggest that people, public figures,
0:39:00 > 0:39:03should have to talk about what they give their children
0:39:03 > 0:39:08- is completely...- ..crisis...- No, no, you, your newspaper.- ..800 people.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10Your newspaper helped to create the crisis
0:39:10 > 0:39:11and you can't walk away from that.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15Darlings, have we learned our lesson? That's what I want to know.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18Now we've had the argument, have we learnt the lesson?
0:39:18 > 0:39:20It's newspapers' jobs to report...
0:39:20 > 0:39:23One at a time, please. I'm going back to the doctor, yes?
0:39:23 > 0:39:26It's just regrettable that Amanda Platell's paper,
0:39:26 > 0:39:30their version of the facts there is very little evidence of very little,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33kind of, agreement with the actual science behind the vaccinations.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35APPLAUSE
0:39:35 > 0:39:38And is the Daily Mail the only newspaper you read, sir?
0:39:38 > 0:39:40It was covered by all newspapers and, in fact,
0:39:40 > 0:39:43the biggest one that's been laid to blame is one of the local newspapers,
0:39:43 > 0:39:45which I think is completely unfair.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48With hindsight, do you regret the scale of coverage
0:39:48 > 0:39:50that the Mail gave it and, it has to be said,
0:39:50 > 0:39:52it has to be said, some parts of the BBC covered this too.
0:39:52 > 0:39:57Look, nobody knew whether or not this was dangerous, nobody knew
0:39:57 > 0:39:59and if ever there's a health issue,
0:39:59 > 0:40:01you know, people dying on the Liverpool Pathway,
0:40:01 > 0:40:04the elderly not being treated in hospitals,
0:40:04 > 0:40:06we see it as our duty to report that.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10OK, hold on, you, sir, and then I'll come. All right. Yes?
0:40:10 > 0:40:13You said it was the newspaper's job to report the facts.
0:40:13 > 0:40:15The newspaper's job, at the end of the day, is to sell papers.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18So, what you're doing isn't necessarily going to be fact.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20You're going to twist it to what ever way
0:40:20 > 0:40:22- is going to make you sell the most copies.- All right.
0:40:22 > 0:40:26- I think the Daily Mail has, kind of, perfected that. - APPLAUSE
0:40:26 > 0:40:29Let's go away from the Daily Mail, for the moment,
0:40:29 > 0:40:31and come to the issue, Sarah Teather,
0:40:31 > 0:40:33should vaccinations for children be compulsory
0:40:33 > 0:40:35- and forget the history, for a moment.- OK.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38I mean, I'm not in favour of compulsory medication.
0:40:38 > 0:40:40I think if you start down that road I, you know,
0:40:40 > 0:40:42goodness knows where an earth it will end.
0:40:42 > 0:40:45If you're going to deal with this we need to actually understand science
0:40:45 > 0:40:48and a lot of the problem with this debate, I'm afraid, Amanda,
0:40:48 > 0:40:50you're falling back into the same trap.
0:40:50 > 0:40:51I mean, to ask Tony Blair
0:40:51 > 0:40:53to say categorically whether something is safe.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Apart from the fact that you're putting a man and his child
0:40:56 > 0:40:59into the public, which is just completely unacceptable,
0:40:59 > 0:41:00whichever party you're in,
0:41:00 > 0:41:03you have to think that that is completely unacceptable
0:41:03 > 0:41:05but, also, science doesn't proceed like that.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08Science proceeds on the basis of risk and the problem with newspapers
0:41:08 > 0:41:10is that they report things as polarities.
0:41:10 > 0:41:13It's either completely safe or completely dangerous and that...
0:41:13 > 0:41:16That is so not true, Sarah, I'm sorry, it shows, darling,
0:41:16 > 0:41:19it shows, actually, that you're not a regular reader of the Daily Mail
0:41:19 > 0:41:21during that period.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24LAUGHTER That's possibly true but I am also a scientist
0:41:24 > 0:41:26and I did work for an organisation
0:41:26 > 0:41:28that, for quite a long time, tried to make sure,
0:41:28 > 0:41:30I worked for the Royal Society a long time before I was elected,
0:41:30 > 0:41:32and one of the big things we were involved in
0:41:32 > 0:41:34was talking about science advice,
0:41:34 > 0:41:35and the problem is people don't understand
0:41:35 > 0:41:39the scientific information they have, they don't know how to interpret it.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41So, this type of thing happens over and over, and over again.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43So, to answer Griff's problem,
0:41:43 > 0:41:46we haven't learned our lessons, I don't think.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49We see scares all the time on the front page of newspapers
0:41:49 > 0:41:53with one report with half a dozen people treated as if this is true
0:41:53 > 0:41:57when, in fact, scientific information just doesn't proceed like that.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59That this man a charlatan, wasn't he?
0:41:59 > 0:42:02They decided, in the end, that he had behaved dishonestly
0:42:02 > 0:42:06- and irresponsibly.- Indeed.- So, how could the Daily Mail know that?
0:42:06 > 0:42:07How could anybody know that
0:42:07 > 0:42:09until the thing had spent two or three years...
0:42:09 > 0:42:13It was a tiny study that was published in the Lancet
0:42:13 > 0:42:15- but, of course...- The Lancet, the goodness sake!
0:42:15 > 0:42:18Let me finish, David, let me finish, let me finish.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21But the claims he made were not made in the Lancet
0:42:21 > 0:42:24they were made at a press conference later.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26You know, you can't just, I think we need to have,
0:42:26 > 0:42:28what would be really helpful is if something like this,
0:42:28 > 0:42:30if everybody reflected on what's happened.
0:42:30 > 0:42:34We have 800 cases, we're lucky, at the moment, nobody has died.
0:42:34 > 0:42:35If people reflected on,
0:42:35 > 0:42:38and scientists and newspaper journalists came together,
0:42:38 > 0:42:40and had a proper sensible discussion
0:42:40 > 0:42:42about how we report scientific facts...
0:42:42 > 0:42:44But there isn't an issue now about MMR, the question, now,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47- and you're against compulsory vaccination.- I am against.
0:42:47 > 0:42:48I want to go to the woman up there
0:42:48 > 0:42:50and then I will come to you, Michael Howard. Yes?
0:42:50 > 0:42:53I did a little bit of research around the MMR when my daughter
0:42:53 > 0:42:56had to have it and I did decide to give it to her
0:42:56 > 0:42:58but I did also come across some information
0:42:58 > 0:43:03about the possibility of changing the ages at which the children
0:43:03 > 0:43:07receive their jabs so that it didn't coincide with the age that
0:43:07 > 0:43:11autism also began to appear in young children,
0:43:11 > 0:43:14so that we could, you know, effectively see and, you know,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18put up some research for parents saying, "Look, we've changed
0:43:18 > 0:43:21"the ages where be given the MMR to children and there is, you know,
0:43:21 > 0:43:24- "we can categorically prove..." - There is just no link with autism.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27No, that's not the point she's making, the point is there was,
0:43:27 > 0:43:30there was an apparent coincidence of autism and MMR.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32That's what lots of people said and if we, somehow, give them...
0:43:32 > 0:43:34Separate, we could then see...
0:43:34 > 0:43:37Yeah, separate them and give people, sort of, unequivocal proof
0:43:37 > 0:43:39that these two events happened separately,
0:43:39 > 0:43:41I think a lot more parents might be happy.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44And are you in favour of compulsory vaccination?
0:43:44 > 0:43:47- I mean, you say you've vaccinated your children.- I don't know,
0:43:47 > 0:43:50I, sort of, in a protective nature towards my own daughter,
0:43:50 > 0:43:51I'd, sort of, say, yes,
0:43:51 > 0:43:54I'd want as many children to be protected as possible
0:43:54 > 0:43:59but then I also have a slight moral issue with compelling people
0:43:59 > 0:44:02- to vaccinate their children against their will.- Michael Howard.
0:44:02 > 0:44:07It is absurd, in this context, to demonise the Daily Mail.
0:44:07 > 0:44:11This controversy was covered by almost every newspaper,
0:44:11 > 0:44:14it was covered extensively on the BBC
0:44:14 > 0:44:18and it continued to rage for quite a long time,
0:44:18 > 0:44:21despite the fact that Yvette Cooper, to her credit,
0:44:21 > 0:44:24who I think was Health Minister at the time, said that she had
0:44:24 > 0:44:28arranged for her children to be vaccinated.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31So, it was a controversy and, in an ideal world, Sarah,
0:44:31 > 0:44:33things would happen as you've described
0:44:33 > 0:44:35but they're never going to happen like that
0:44:35 > 0:44:38- because when controversies... - We could improve things a bit...
0:44:38 > 0:44:41..when controversies arise you must expect the media to cover them.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44That was in the past.
0:44:44 > 0:44:46I agree with those who have said
0:44:46 > 0:44:51that it would be wrong to make it compulsory, I agree with Caroline,
0:44:51 > 0:44:55what you've got to try and do is get back to a situation
0:44:55 > 0:44:57where, on an entirely voluntary basis,
0:44:57 > 0:45:02the overwhelming majority of parents arranged for their children
0:45:02 > 0:45:05to have the vaccine and I hope we can get back to that,
0:45:05 > 0:45:07the sooner the better.
0:45:07 > 0:45:08You, sir.
0:45:08 > 0:45:12I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with a Liberal Democrat
0:45:12 > 0:45:15but, at the end of the day, surely, the natural conclusion for things
0:45:15 > 0:45:19that are this important, that are best understood by scientists,
0:45:19 > 0:45:22is that scientists and doctors should make the decision
0:45:22 > 0:45:26and, as a result of that, don't you agree that the natural conclusion
0:45:26 > 0:45:28is that compulsory vaccination is the way forward,
0:45:28 > 0:45:30and if we had compulsory vaccination
0:45:30 > 0:45:33measles would be something we were discussing in the history.
0:45:33 > 0:45:34I don't think you can abdicate
0:45:34 > 0:45:36all of the role of a politician to a scientist,
0:45:36 > 0:45:38that's not what I was, actually, arguing,
0:45:38 > 0:45:41- politicians still need to make decisions.- The woman at the back.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43But we need to understand the advice.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46I don't think politicians always understand advice from scientists.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48The woman at the back, then you, sir, then we'll go on.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51I'm a new parent so I've just been through this process myself,
0:45:51 > 0:45:53of vaccinations,
0:45:53 > 0:45:57and I can say you're given a lot of information about the vaccinations.
0:45:57 > 0:45:59You know, so you know what you're doing
0:45:59 > 0:46:02and I personally believe that getting your child vaccinated
0:46:02 > 0:46:07is the responsible thing to do and I want to make sure there's,
0:46:07 > 0:46:09any risks I can get rid of for my child I can.
0:46:09 > 0:46:13So, if the parents of other children, your neighbours,
0:46:13 > 0:46:15weren't vaccinating their children
0:46:15 > 0:46:17would you think they should be compelled to?
0:46:17 > 0:46:20No, I think you should want to do what is best for your child.
0:46:20 > 0:46:24I know that's an ideal world and I think getting your child vaccinated
0:46:24 > 0:46:26is the best thing to do for your child
0:46:26 > 0:46:31but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the state forcing parents
0:46:31 > 0:46:35into a decision if they have a moral objection.
0:46:35 > 0:46:38I can't imagine what it would be like to have your child taken away
0:46:38 > 0:46:41and vaccinated against your will, I think that would be wrong.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43Your child, once vaccinated, is protected anyway
0:46:43 > 0:46:46so the issue barely arises. Over there, yes.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50I agree with the gentleman earlier on. He said that we have
0:46:50 > 0:46:53lots of different rules that are for the good of the community,
0:46:53 > 0:46:58- you know, rules of the road, national curriculum...- Seat belts?
0:46:58 > 0:47:00Seat belts. I see this as no different,
0:47:00 > 0:47:03for the good of the community,
0:47:03 > 0:47:07- vaccinations like this should be compulsory.- OK.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10You were going to pick me up on one point
0:47:10 > 0:47:13I said that if her child is vaccinated it's safe.
0:47:13 > 0:47:16If there are a large numbers of people who aren't vaccinated
0:47:16 > 0:47:19that can still have an impact, in terms of these diseases,
0:47:19 > 0:47:21on those who are and there are some people -
0:47:21 > 0:47:24and I was talking to someone today who knows someone who's got
0:47:24 > 0:47:26a small child who's got leukaemia,
0:47:26 > 0:47:29they can't, because of their leukaemia, get vaccinated
0:47:29 > 0:47:30so they are not protected.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33The herd immunity protects those people as well
0:47:33 > 0:47:36and this is why these things are so important.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39It actually brings it together, collectively,
0:47:39 > 0:47:41in collective responsibility together
0:47:41 > 0:47:43and we need to make sure that, actually, you know,
0:47:43 > 0:47:47last time round there were many, many, many more doctors
0:47:47 > 0:47:50and scientists saying, "It's safe, stick with the MMR,"
0:47:50 > 0:47:52and we allowed an individual and a couple of others
0:47:52 > 0:47:55- to take us off course. - OK, thank you.
0:47:55 > 0:47:56Hannah Martin, please.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00Does the threat from North Korea justify Trident?
0:48:00 > 0:48:03Does the threat from North Korea
0:48:03 > 0:48:07justify keeping the Trident missile system?
0:48:07 > 0:48:09Who'd like to start on this?
0:48:09 > 0:48:11Griff Rhys Jones.
0:48:11 > 0:48:12Thank you(!)
0:48:12 > 0:48:14LAUGHTER
0:48:14 > 0:48:17Erm...we are, in a funny way,
0:48:17 > 0:48:22seeing the downside of the nuclear deterrent here
0:48:22 > 0:48:28because it's complicated, in as much as we live in a world
0:48:28 > 0:48:32which has been protected by these fearful weapons.
0:48:32 > 0:48:36But if we look back to the end of the Second World War, historically...
0:48:37 > 0:48:43..had Adolf Hitler had nuclear weapons
0:48:43 > 0:48:46he would have used them indiscriminately
0:48:46 > 0:48:49because he was madman, and, to a certain extent,
0:48:49 > 0:48:52he believed at the end of the war that the German people had failed
0:48:52 > 0:48:54and he wanted to take them,
0:48:54 > 0:48:58and the rest of the world, down with him if he could.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02And one of the problems about such dangerous weaponry
0:49:02 > 0:49:08is that in the hands of people who are failing to rule their country,
0:49:08 > 0:49:11and they are a failing regime, in North Korea,
0:49:11 > 0:49:14they become increasingly dangerous.
0:49:14 > 0:49:20Whether Trident will stop them ultimately taking some ghastly
0:49:20 > 0:49:25and terrible action is not necessarily any more true.
0:49:25 > 0:49:33I mean, in a way, it's a weapon which we know we SHOULD believe in
0:49:33 > 0:49:37to protect us from a sort of sense of mutual destruction,
0:49:37 > 0:49:43and to say that it hasn't is to misunderstand the post-war world
0:49:43 > 0:49:45because, in a funny way, we have avoided really,
0:49:45 > 0:49:49we've had a lot of war but we've avoided really major,
0:49:49 > 0:49:51major wars, like the Second World War,
0:49:51 > 0:49:56in which 68 million people, it's now estimated, died...
0:49:58 > 0:50:02..and, under those circumstances, it's an important thing.
0:50:02 > 0:50:04For us to have as well as the United States to have?
0:50:04 > 0:50:05Yes, yes, I believe so.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08Michael Howard, because Michael Portillo,
0:50:08 > 0:50:10the former Defence Secretary of the Conservative government,
0:50:10 > 0:50:12said, "It's absurd to believe the United Kingdom
0:50:12 > 0:50:15"would use nuclear weapons against North Korea.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17"If anyone's going to do it and provide a deterrent
0:50:17 > 0:50:19"it's the United States." Do you agree with that?
0:50:19 > 0:50:21I don't think that's quite the point.
0:50:21 > 0:50:24The point is that we live in an extraordinarily uncertain world
0:50:24 > 0:50:29in which you cannot predict every eventuality that might occur.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34But let me, let me give you a hypothetical example.
0:50:34 > 0:50:35Erm, we...
0:50:37 > 0:50:38..take it upon ourselves...
0:50:39 > 0:50:42..normally together with other countries,
0:50:42 > 0:50:46to be preferred to intervene in certain circumstances
0:50:46 > 0:50:49for what you regard as humanitarian reasons.
0:50:49 > 0:50:56We did it most recently, together with the French, in Libya.
0:50:56 > 0:51:01Now, if Libya had still had nuclear weapons...
0:51:04 > 0:51:06..then some people might have thought
0:51:06 > 0:51:10that Colonel Gaddafi might been prepared to use them,
0:51:10 > 0:51:11in those circumstances.
0:51:11 > 0:51:15I don't think he would have been prepared to use them, why?
0:51:15 > 0:51:19Because he knew that we and the French had them.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22And you cannot discount the possibility that we might,
0:51:22 > 0:51:26for the very best of reasons, for humanitarian reasons,
0:51:26 > 0:51:30want to intervene in a part of the world which was within
0:51:30 > 0:51:33reach of North Korea's nuclear arsenal...
0:51:35 > 0:51:40..and we might be deterred from intervening.
0:51:40 > 0:51:43And achieving those humanitarian objectives,
0:51:43 > 0:51:46if they had those nuclear weapons, and we didn't.
0:51:46 > 0:51:50And so you've got to take into account the enormous uncertainty
0:51:50 > 0:51:52of the world in which we live,
0:51:52 > 0:51:54the fact that we can't predict
0:51:54 > 0:51:56all the likely situations that might arise
0:51:56 > 0:52:00and that's why I believe we do need to keep our nuclear deterrent.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03APPLAUSE
0:52:05 > 0:52:07Yes, to you.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09I see the problem at the moment,
0:52:09 > 0:52:12with maintaining independent deterrents,
0:52:12 > 0:52:16is that, well, the problem is cost, mainly
0:52:16 > 0:52:20because it's highly expensive to develop, say, the submarines
0:52:20 > 0:52:24which we do, there are other ways you could do it, but at high cost...
0:52:24 > 0:52:26I do agree with Michael on this point
0:52:26 > 0:52:28that you can't predict the world.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30We've seen this with the Arab Spring,
0:52:30 > 0:52:32lots of countries changing into ways
0:52:32 > 0:52:35which we probably wouldn't like them to,
0:52:35 > 0:52:38such as we've seen in Egypt, lots of problems rising up there.
0:52:38 > 0:52:41We've seen, mainly in North Africa and so on.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44It's important to maintain it but another point on North Korea,
0:52:44 > 0:52:48North Korea is, will probably never use it.
0:52:48 > 0:52:51They are just trying to join this club of nuclear nations
0:52:51 > 0:52:53where they can try and be respected
0:52:53 > 0:52:58but when their friends down south are more economic prospects.
0:52:58 > 0:53:00I think it was quoted,
0:53:00 > 0:53:03it was something the Prime Minister said, that it was an example,
0:53:03 > 0:53:06a good example of why you might need a nuclear deterrent.
0:53:06 > 0:53:07Sarah Teather?
0:53:07 > 0:53:10I mean, I'm not convinced that North Korea is the main threat
0:53:10 > 0:53:11to our security.
0:53:11 > 0:53:14I think the main threat to our security is, is terrorism
0:53:14 > 0:53:19and it's all sorts of random groups around the world and, for that,
0:53:19 > 0:53:21Trident is very poorly equipped.
0:53:21 > 0:53:26It is phenomenally expensive, as the gentleman here just said,
0:53:26 > 0:53:30and, funnily enough, listening to what Michael was saying about,
0:53:30 > 0:53:33about Libya, I, kind of, drew a different conclusion, actually.
0:53:33 > 0:53:37I fear that we just end up in an arms race, really,
0:53:37 > 0:53:40and that countries with rogue, you know,
0:53:40 > 0:53:43rogue governments think that the best way to protect themselves
0:53:43 > 0:53:45is to get nuclear weapons
0:53:45 > 0:53:48and the argument which is going, kind of, round and round and round
0:53:48 > 0:53:51and round, that if they have nuclear weapons we need more nuclear weapons.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53And I wonder whether or not this is, actually,
0:53:53 > 0:53:56a particularly sensible use of money at the time.
0:53:56 > 0:53:58I mean, we've had a debate all evening, on and off,
0:53:58 > 0:54:01it's been the undercurrent of what we've been talking about
0:54:01 > 0:54:04has been about the financial difficulties we have in this country,
0:54:04 > 0:54:05and with what money we have,
0:54:05 > 0:54:08I wonder whether we might be better protecting ourselves in other ways
0:54:08 > 0:54:10and thinking about how to protect ourselves,
0:54:10 > 0:54:13particularly, against terrorism. APPLAUSE
0:54:13 > 0:54:16You, sir, at the back, there. Yes?
0:54:16 > 0:54:19Sarah, I agree with your point around terrorism
0:54:19 > 0:54:23but Trident is just part of a whole defence solution
0:54:23 > 0:54:26and, surely, it's better to have it and not need it
0:54:26 > 0:54:27than need and not have it.
0:54:27 > 0:54:29APPLAUSE
0:54:32 > 0:54:35Caroline Flint, do you agree with him?
0:54:35 > 0:54:37Yeah, I do agree with the last gentleman.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39I mean, the world is very different, in many respects,
0:54:39 > 0:54:42from the days of the Cold War where we pointed at them
0:54:42 > 0:54:45and they pointed at us, and there seemed to be,
0:54:45 > 0:54:48despite everything, certain rules of engagement.
0:54:48 > 0:54:51And I think, I remember one senior person in the Army saying,
0:54:51 > 0:54:52"Well, when it was the Cold War
0:54:52 > 0:54:54"it was like conducting a symphony orchestra,
0:54:54 > 0:54:56"since then and all the other things that have occurred,
0:54:56 > 0:54:59"in terms of risk, it's more like jazz because you just don't know
0:54:59 > 0:55:01"what's going to happen
0:55:01 > 0:55:03"and you've got to be prepared for all eventualities."
0:55:03 > 0:55:05I think what has happened,
0:55:05 > 0:55:08since the end of the Cold War, is that we have seen a reduction,
0:55:08 > 0:55:11I think, in the, sort of, stockpile of nuclear warheads
0:55:11 > 0:55:15and I welcome that but the truth is I think it's not only
0:55:15 > 0:55:20for our benefit but it's also the umbrella with other responsible
0:55:20 > 0:55:24nuclear nations that we provide a defence for other countries as well.
0:55:24 > 0:55:27And, so, therefore, I think it's just part of what we have to deal with
0:55:27 > 0:55:29but you are absolutely right, and so is Sarah,
0:55:29 > 0:55:32it isn't the only answer to deal with conflict,
0:55:32 > 0:55:34and it certainly isn't the only answer at all
0:55:34 > 0:55:37to deal with issues around terrorism that we face today,
0:55:37 > 0:55:39and the many forms that that arrives in.
0:55:39 > 0:55:41The woman, there, and then I'll come to you, Amanda,
0:55:41 > 0:55:44and then I think we'll have to close. Yes, you.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47I find there's a real, sort of, loss with what we teach our kids,
0:55:47 > 0:55:51to turn the other cheek and to, if a bully hits you, don't hit them back,
0:55:51 > 0:55:55and then we hold onto war weapons, and nuclear things,
0:55:55 > 0:55:57so, if they do it we can do it.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00And it's something that we demonise them for having nuclear weapons
0:56:00 > 0:56:03but it's OK because we have it, because we trust ourselves,
0:56:03 > 0:56:05and I don't understand this imbalance
0:56:05 > 0:56:07- of we're allowed to have it but they're not.- Amanda Platell.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10APPLAUSE
0:56:10 > 0:56:13I am, unsurprisingly, no nuclear expert
0:56:13 > 0:56:16but I completely agree with this gentleman over here.
0:56:16 > 0:56:19There's a club out there of countries, some of them reliable,
0:56:19 > 0:56:22some of them completely fragile, and I would much rather
0:56:22 > 0:56:29- be among the club of the, as you called it, "the nuclear nations."- OK.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32I'll take one more point. Who hasn't spoken yet? You haven't, sir.
0:56:32 > 0:56:34Briefly, please.
0:56:34 > 0:56:35The lady at the end, there,
0:56:35 > 0:56:38said she'd rather be in the club of the nuclear nations.
0:56:38 > 0:56:39What, including the USA
0:56:39 > 0:56:42who has destroyed cities with nuclear weapons?
0:56:42 > 0:56:44What sort of club is that?
0:56:44 > 0:56:48- Sorry you, what cities is...?- Japan. - In the Second World War?
0:56:48 > 0:56:50Yes, in the Second World War.
0:56:50 > 0:56:52Right, well, I think this is going to stop.
0:56:52 > 0:56:56I know you're very keen to speak. All right. What?
0:56:56 > 0:57:01On the last question, I'd like to ask Griff Rhys Jones...
0:57:01 > 0:57:06you reckon that Hitler was mad, do you think the same of Harry Truman?
0:57:07 > 0:57:12No, I think that what happened was that the use of nuclear weapons
0:57:12 > 0:57:17was a restrained use of force at the end of the Second World War.
0:57:17 > 0:57:22I think it was an appalling use of force but what that actually...
0:57:22 > 0:57:26Both those explosions have effectively put an end
0:57:26 > 0:57:30to the use of that weapon, and they have done.
0:57:30 > 0:57:34Nobody has, effectively, used another nuclear weapon in anger since that
0:57:34 > 0:57:38time and I think, in a way, we bought a level of peace as a result of it.
0:57:38 > 0:57:41- All right.- And, although, that may,
0:57:41 > 0:57:44that's a totally terrible thing for the world to have achieved
0:57:44 > 0:57:48I think that if that happened as a result of those ghastly explosions.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50You can't escape the attack.
0:57:50 > 0:57:54You cannot escape the attack on innocent men,
0:57:54 > 0:57:56women and children - civilians.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58There was no need for it at all!
0:57:58 > 0:58:00All right.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03Time's up, I'm afraid. Thank you for the point.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05Next week we're going to be in Worcester
0:58:05 > 0:58:09and Nigel Farage is going to be on the panel and Robert Winston,
0:58:09 > 0:58:12the scientist, and television presenter.
0:58:12 > 0:58:14Everybody seems to be a television presenter these days!
0:58:14 > 0:58:17- Anyway, the week after that we're going to be...- It's a club!
0:58:17 > 0:58:19It's a club. We're going to be in Dartford, in Kent.
0:58:19 > 0:58:21Now, if you'd like to come to either programme,
0:58:21 > 0:58:23that's Worcester and Dartford, then go to our website,
0:58:23 > 0:58:25the best way of doing it or you can call us...
0:58:28 > 0:58:30Let us know your details, we'll get in touch.
0:58:30 > 0:58:32Thanks very much to our panel, here,
0:58:32 > 0:58:35thank you, all, for coming here to Aldershot.
0:58:35 > 0:58:37I know many of you don't live in Aldershot
0:58:37 > 0:58:39and have come here especially for this programme.
0:58:39 > 0:58:42I'm very grateful to you, we'll see you all again,
0:58:42 > 0:58:44those watching at home, next Thursday, I hope.
0:58:44 > 0:58:47- From all of this here, good night. - APPLAUSE
0:59:09 > 0:59:12Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd