0:00:01 > 0:00:11Tonight, we are in Worcester Cathedral, and welcome to Question
0:00:11 > 0:00:13
0:00:13 > 0:00:20Time. Good evening to you at home. Good evening to the audience and
0:00:20 > 0:00:24the panel, economic Secretary to the Treasury, Sajid Javid, Labour's
0:00:24 > 0:00:28shadow climate change minister, Luciana Berger, from the Liberal
0:00:28 > 0:00:38Democrats, Simon Hughes, their deputy leader, and two leaders,
0:00:38 > 0:00:48
0:00:48 > 0:00:55Natalie Bennett of the Green Party, The first question tonight comes
0:00:55 > 0:01:03from Thomas Doyle. Is George Osborne's economic plan finally
0:01:03 > 0:01:07working? We have heard today that the Chancellor has tried to spin
0:01:07 > 0:01:11the growth figures as a victory. If the Chancellor was to come out into
0:01:11 > 0:01:16the country and to speak to people up and down the country, he would
0:01:16 > 0:01:19know that people are facing a really, really tough time. There is
0:01:19 > 0:01:24a cost-of-living crisis in this country. People are really
0:01:24 > 0:01:27struggling to get by. We heard only this week that 350,000 people in
0:01:27 > 0:01:32our country had to go to a food bank because they could not afford
0:01:32 > 0:01:36to feed themselves and their families. I want to see people in
0:01:36 > 0:01:40work. There are over 2.5 million people in the country who do not
0:01:40 > 0:01:42have a job, including over 1 million young people. I want to see
0:01:42 > 0:01:46the Government come forward with a proper plan for jobs and growth.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50How many more people will it take for the Chancellor to listen and
0:01:50 > 0:01:53get on with it and get a proper plan for jobs and growth? There are
0:01:53 > 0:01:57many things he could do and I would like to see him do immediately to
0:01:57 > 0:02:00get people into work. Firstly, I would like him to repeat the
0:02:00 > 0:02:05banker's bonus tax so we can get young people into work and build
0:02:05 > 0:02:10homes that this country if desperately needs. He could reduce
0:02:10 > 0:02:15VAT temporarily to stimulate demand. He could reduce VAT in the
0:02:15 > 0:02:18construction sector. He could do all manner of things, and he does
0:02:18 > 0:02:28not have a plan. It is people up and down the country that are
0:02:28 > 0:02:28
0:02:28 > 0:02:35suffering as a result of it. Sajid Javid, there is quite a long
0:02:36 > 0:02:41list there. I think today's news was welcomed. The Zero debris
0:02:41 > 0:02:43basenji ADP figures? Yes, it shows the economy is healing but it
0:02:43 > 0:02:47equally shows there is a long way to go, the road will be bumpy but
0:02:47 > 0:02:51we are on the right track. Before I came into politics three years ago
0:02:51 > 0:02:55I used to do a tremendous amount of business in emerging markets in the
0:02:55 > 0:03:00fastest-growing countries, Brazil, China, India, countries of that
0:03:00 > 0:03:03type. I saw for myself how fast those countries are growing and
0:03:04 > 0:03:07expanding. As a result, these countries today are eating our
0:03:07 > 0:03:12breakfast, having our lunch. If we do not change our ways, they are
0:03:12 > 0:03:16also going to be having our supper. That is the simple truth of it.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20When the Prime Minister talks about us being in a global race, that is
0:03:20 > 0:03:24what he means. The world does not owe us a living and we have to
0:03:24 > 0:03:28fight hard in this global space to succeed. The Government's job is to
0:03:28 > 0:03:33make sure we equip British citizens to succeed in the global race. What
0:03:33 > 0:03:37have we done about it? It meant, when we came to office, that we had
0:03:37 > 0:03:41to deal with the largest deficit of any of the large 20 leading nations.
0:03:41 > 0:03:46We have cut that by a third. That has brought economic credibility,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50lowered interest rates and brought Investment. You mention the jobs,
0:03:50 > 0:03:53and you are right to talk about jobs. 1.2 5 million new private
0:03:53 > 0:03:58sector jobs have been created in the last three years. There are
0:03:58 > 0:04:03more people think -- employed in the private sector than at any time
0:04:03 > 0:04:07in history. We created jobs last year faster than any other G7
0:04:07 > 0:04:10nation. That is something we should be proud of. I will not pretend for
0:04:10 > 0:04:14a second that we do not have serious economic challenges, but
0:04:14 > 0:04:17once they were grown at home and ones that come from abroad, but
0:04:17 > 0:04:20this Government is walking up to those challenges, confronting them
0:04:20 > 0:04:25and dealing with them, rather than sticking its head in the sand and
0:04:26 > 0:04:33pretending the problem can just go away. Thank you very much for that.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38Why is it that the IMF does not seem that keen on what you're doing,
0:04:38 > 0:04:43if you think it is so right? And why do the credit rating agencies
0:04:43 > 0:04:48not seem to entirely approve of what you're doing? First, the IMF
0:04:48 > 0:04:51will be coming to the UK very soon. It goes to all the leading
0:04:51 > 0:04:55economies every year and does a proper assessment. It will be
0:04:55 > 0:05:00interesting to see what they say in the light of today's news. I would
0:05:00 > 0:05:05rather wait to see. I am pleased you mentioned the rating agencies.
0:05:05 > 0:05:11The two rating agencies that have downgraded our credit rating, they
0:05:11 > 0:05:14have both said the same thing, which is that if Britain deviates
0:05:15 > 0:05:18from its deficit reduction plan, its plan to make sure that our
0:05:18 > 0:05:22country once again start living within its means, they would
0:05:22 > 0:05:25downgrade us again. If we look at the two countries that have not
0:05:25 > 0:05:31been downgraded, AAA across the board from all of the rating
0:05:31 > 0:05:34agencies, Germany and Canada, if you look at both those countries,
0:05:34 > 0:05:38they fixed the roof when the sun was shining. The previous
0:05:38 > 0:05:43Government ran a deficit from 2001, long before the international
0:05:43 > 0:05:50crisis, and we are having to pay the price to Dave. George Osborne
0:05:50 > 0:05:53said it was essential that Britain was not downgraded, but they you go.
0:05:53 > 0:05:58Is the strategy working, no. This strategy was put together to get
0:05:58 > 0:06:02rid of the annual deficit. The plan was that over five years the death
0:06:02 > 0:06:07as it would disappear. The deficit is still running at �130 billion
0:06:07 > 0:06:11per year. If we go on like this, by the end of this Parliament our
0:06:11 > 0:06:16national debt will have increased by 40% in the lifetime of this
0:06:16 > 0:06:21Parliament. So it is not working. Sajid talks about living within our
0:06:21 > 0:06:29means. We have barely dented the deficit over the course of these
0:06:29 > 0:06:32last two and a half years. It is not working. Growth is anaemic. The
0:06:32 > 0:06:36international community looks at the UK, not just because of the
0:06:36 > 0:06:40downgrades, but they are pretty pessimistic and bearish about the
0:06:40 > 0:06:44outlook. I think what George Osborne is going to need to do is
0:06:44 > 0:06:47to be much more radical. We are going to have to have some real
0:06:47 > 0:06:52cuts in government spending, particularly if one looks at the
0:06:52 > 0:06:57�60 billion per year that we are spending on quangos. Again, the
0:06:57 > 0:07:01Tory party talked about a bonfire of the quangos. We need to see it.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05We also have to reduce taxation for the low-paid. If you get them out
0:07:05 > 0:07:09of the tax system, no tax on minimum wage, that money will go
0:07:09 > 0:07:17into people's pockets and get spent in the High Street. Something
0:07:17 > 0:07:20radical needs to happen. Everybody in the audience is
0:07:20 > 0:07:28experiencing what is going on here, so I am sure there are many
0:07:28 > 0:07:32different views that I would like to hear. The woman in the third row.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36The Government says the state of the economy is improving but isn't
0:07:36 > 0:07:40the 0.3% meaning that it is within the definition of not being a
0:07:40 > 0:07:45triple-dip recession, because we are still in the same position we
0:07:45 > 0:07:49were in five years ago? Simon Hughes, as a supporter of the
0:07:49 > 0:07:53coalition. I would link that question to the initial question,
0:07:53 > 0:07:58is it finally working. It is not finally working because it was
0:07:58 > 0:08:01never going to be a quick fix. Nigel is right in one respect,
0:08:01 > 0:08:09although he went on to say something inconsistent with
0:08:09 > 0:08:12something else he believes. This is very complicated, isn't it! When we
0:08:12 > 0:08:17joined the coalition we did so because we believed we needed a
0:08:17 > 0:08:21stronger economy, to rescue Britain from paying �120 million each day
0:08:21 > 0:08:24in interest on our debts. Not sustainable. Personal debt at its
0:08:24 > 0:08:29highest level ever, and an inability to understand that you
0:08:29 > 0:08:32have to make the books balance. We went into a coalition in the
0:08:33 > 0:08:36national interest to do that. But we were clear we needed a fairer
0:08:36 > 0:08:39society, because Labour and the Tories have left the gap between
0:08:39 > 0:08:44rich and poor wider than it had ever been, with a ridiculous
0:08:44 > 0:08:48bonuses while other people struggled at the bottom side. We
0:08:48 > 0:08:52have done the steps that shut -- Sajid has talked about, and many
0:08:52 > 0:08:57things have succeeded. Interest rates are low, inflation is low,
0:08:57 > 0:09:00the deficit has been reduced by one-third, we have created over 1
0:09:00 > 0:09:03million new jobs. Are you are attracted by what Luciana Berger
0:09:03 > 0:09:08has been saying about the other things that could stimulate the
0:09:08 > 0:09:11economy? There is not a difference of view in politics that we want
0:09:11 > 0:09:16unemployment to be as low as possible, as many people in work as
0:09:16 > 0:09:22possible, but we have to do it in a way that is sustainable. We have
0:09:22 > 0:09:27done that. There are more people in work. When I came into Parliament
0:09:27 > 0:09:32and Mrs Thatcher was the Prime Minister we had 18% unemployment.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36Unemployment in this constituency is something between 4% and 5%.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39Youth unemployment is lower than when you left office, and that had
0:09:39 > 0:09:43started when you were still in power. You were not in Parliament
0:09:43 > 0:09:47then, but I am not taking lectures from colleagues in the Labour Party
0:09:47 > 0:09:52who did not deal with this issue. But we need to do other things. We
0:09:52 > 0:09:56need to go on slowly and steadily making sure we get growth,
0:09:56 > 0:09:59manufacturing investment, money for small businesses to grow. I am
0:09:59 > 0:10:03committed to making sure the people at the bottom end do not pay the
0:10:03 > 0:10:10price and the people at the top pay more. We have been taking the low-
0:10:10 > 0:10:15paid out of tax. The start that the tax threshold of �6,440, it is now
0:10:15 > 0:10:20�9,400 and next year it will be �10,400. We are trying to make sure
0:10:20 > 0:10:24people on high incomes pay more, and for me that is the right way to
0:10:24 > 0:10:31go in difficult circumstances. Behind the question was presumably,
0:10:31 > 0:10:34is there a glimmer of light? The person second row from the back.
0:10:34 > 0:10:40Going back to the point about the outlook for the UK economy being
0:10:40 > 0:10:44pessimistic. Surely it would be even more pessimistic if we left
0:10:44 > 0:10:50the European Union of which, even by your figures, 40% of our exports
0:10:50 > 0:11:00go to, which is too large to brush aside and say it is not important?
0:11:00 > 0:11:00
0:11:00 > 0:11:04If you look at the cost... There is the top-line figure of the
0:11:04 > 0:11:07�50 million each day as a membership fee, but there are some
0:11:07 > 0:11:13interesting academic reports saying that the cost of unnecessary
0:11:13 > 0:11:17regulation being put on British industry is perhaps costing up to
0:11:17 > 0:11:205% of our annual GDP. I will promise you one thing, Britain not
0:11:20 > 0:11:24being a member of the European Union does not mean that Mercedes
0:11:24 > 0:11:28will not want to sell cars in this country. We will go on doing
0:11:28 > 0:11:33business with Europe. We would be free to open trade deals with the
0:11:33 > 0:11:37rest of the world which we are currently forbidden from doing.
0:11:37 > 0:11:46do it anyway. We are forbidden from making a trade deal with any other
0:11:46 > 0:11:50country in the world. The European Union can make our trade policy, we
0:11:50 > 0:11:54cannot. The sooner we get rid of the lunacy of climate change policy
0:11:54 > 0:12:03we have signed up to in Brussels and excessive employment regulation,
0:12:03 > 0:12:07we will be a wealthier countries. am going to largely ignore Nigel
0:12:07 > 0:12:10Farage's magic recipe. He is going to do one thing, leave the European
0:12:10 > 0:12:16Union, and that will solve all have our problems. I think simple
0:12:16 > 0:12:19recipes like that are not the way forward. We need to look at our own
0:12:20 > 0:12:23economy. Mystic Hughes says he is worried about the poor and
0:12:23 > 0:12:28disadvantaged, so he is part of a Government that has to seen in the
0:12:28 > 0:12:33last year the wealth of the wealthiest 10% go up by 11%. The
0:12:33 > 0:12:39Sunday Times Rich List, there are 11 new billionaires in Britain.
0:12:39 > 0:12:46Isn't that wonderful? I don't think it is. Luciana Berger referred to
0:12:46 > 0:12:49the unemployed, but it is not just the unemployed. 2.6 7 million young
0:12:49 > 0:12:54people. It is also the one in 10 people who are working fewer hours
0:12:54 > 0:12:58than they would like to be working, who are struggling to get by with
0:12:58 > 0:13:04less than full-time hours, and the one-in-five people who are on less
0:13:04 > 0:13:08than a living wage, after 13 years of a Labour government. We have a
0:13:08 > 0:13:12minimum wage that is significantly below the living wage, and that
0:13:12 > 0:13:15simply is not good enough. We need to rebuild our economy with jobs
0:13:15 > 0:13:19you can build a life on, bring manufacturing and food production
0:13:19 > 0:13:26back to Britain and rebuild our local economies around small
0:13:26 > 0:13:31business. Would you increase borrowing? The whole Government
0:13:31 > 0:13:35position, as has been explained, is about getting borrowing down. Would
0:13:35 > 0:13:41you increase borrowing? What matters is what you do with the
0:13:41 > 0:13:46borrowing. Would you increase it? We are borrowing for things like
0:13:46 > 0:13:50Trident, to cut the corporate tax rate. Would you increase borrowing
0:13:50 > 0:13:56in principle? Yes, because we believe austerity is the wrong
0:13:56 > 0:14:01direction. The IMF says we are playing with fire. This Government
0:14:01 > 0:14:06is borrowing �245 billion more than it said it would. Would you reduce
0:14:06 > 0:14:09borrowing? In terms of the next general election, with a set out
0:14:09 > 0:14:14our plans. Are you going to increase borrowing, saying to the
0:14:14 > 0:14:18voters, we are going to increase borrowing, or stick with the Tory
0:14:18 > 0:14:21plans? We do not know what the economy will be light in two-and-a-
0:14:21 > 0:14:31half years. We have a responsibility not to make promises
0:14:31 > 0:14:44
0:14:44 > 0:14:48wasn't the case. Clearly, you must want borrowing to go up. You can't
0:14:48 > 0:14:53do it any other way. The independent IFS says if Labour
0:14:53 > 0:14:56carried out its policy, borrowing would be higher by at least another
0:14:56 > 0:15:01�200 billion. It was excessive borrowing that got us into this
0:15:01 > 0:15:11problem in the first place, so how on earth can more borrowing get us
0:15:11 > 0:15:13
0:15:13 > 0:15:17out of it? That's what's happening. You, Sir, yes? We have acknowledged
0:15:17 > 0:15:21over the last few years that we were naive to believe there was an
0:15:21 > 0:15:26end to boom-and-bust, to not notice that we were carrying on spending
0:15:26 > 0:15:30when we had not enough resources to support it. Are we now being naive
0:15:30 > 0:15:33in thinking it will be sorted out in a short time without any pain?
0:15:33 > 0:15:38It's going to take years, we should realise that and accept it. It's
0:15:38 > 0:15:42bad news and we need to take care of the people mostly affected by it,
0:15:42 > 0:15:49but we are naive to think we'll have green shoots now or next year
0:15:49 > 0:15:52- it's going to take a long time. Do you agree with that? Absolutely
0:15:52 > 0:15:55right. APPLAUSE
0:15:55 > 0:16:00If ever there was a time for a British Chancellor of the Exchequer
0:16:00 > 0:16:04to go on TV and have a fireside chat with the British nation, it's
0:16:04 > 0:16:08now. We keep hearing about cuts and living within our means. The
0:16:09 > 0:16:12reality is that this annual deficit is still hopelessly and totally out
0:16:12 > 0:16:16of control and it needs somebody in the British Government to honestly
0:16:16 > 0:16:19tell the British people the mess we are in and to explain that things
0:16:19 > 0:16:24will be tough for a few years. We are not having that conversation.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28We are having a false debate about cuts. We are not cutting, we are
0:16:28 > 0:16:34borrowing �130 billion a year more every single year. Why can't you do
0:16:34 > 0:16:40what he wants to have done? I've looked at UKIP's policies. Many
0:16:40 > 0:16:46people can say that, but I have. UKIP's policies would lead to more
0:16:46 > 0:16:50borrowing as well. If you look at their central point, they want
0:16:50 > 0:16:54unfunded tax cuts, which will lead to more borrowing and at the same
0:16:54 > 0:16:59time they want to protect spending on the NHS, they want to protect
0:16:59 > 0:17:03spending on education and on this and that, so there are three people
0:17:03 > 0:17:07on this table. In the '80s, the Conservative Party used to believe
0:17:07 > 0:17:17if you cut taxes, it led to economic growth because people
0:17:17 > 0:17:18
0:17:18 > 0:17:23spent the money. If you cut people's taxes at the bottom end,
0:17:23 > 0:17:30and I agree there's been progress, there needs to be more. If there's
0:17:30 > 0:17:40no tax on the minimum wage, that would lead to people having more
0:17:40 > 0:17:41
0:17:41 > 0:17:48money in this country. That would be a flat party policy. UKIP's tax
0:17:48 > 0:17:52policy, 31% tax means the rich would pay far less tax. You are
0:17:52 > 0:17:58nervous about UKIP, the way you are talking? We have the most
0:17:58 > 0:18:05complicated tax system. The tax code was 5,000 pages long, it's now
0:18:05 > 0:18:1213,000 pages long. There is a simple argument for our tax system.
0:18:12 > 0:18:19Top rate taxpayers should have... In the policy. You haven't even got
0:18:19 > 0:18:24a policy. What is your tax policy? APPLAUSE
0:18:24 > 0:18:28Very simply, what is your tax policy? No tax on the minimum wage
0:18:28 > 0:18:32and a mass simplification of the tax policy. With a lower rate.
0:18:32 > 0:18:40We'll abolish national insurance, roll it into tax because all it is
0:18:40 > 0:18:44is tax anyway. What rate would these people pay? 25-30%, I suspect
0:18:44 > 0:18:48no national insurance. So you would change your policy from the flat
0:18:48 > 0:18:54rate? Every party changes their policies close to the general
0:18:54 > 0:18:57elections, that's right. So we shouldn't believe a word you say?!
0:18:57 > 0:19:01APPLAUSE Hang on. We stood under a different
0:19:01 > 0:19:04leader in a different general election with a policy of 31%,
0:19:04 > 0:19:08doesn't mean that will be our policy next time around.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12You, Sir? The legacy left by the Labour Government surely means no
0:19:12 > 0:19:17party can afford to make cuts? There's still too much to pay back
0:19:17 > 0:19:23to move forward, so everyone's going to have to borrow anyway.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28you think there can be no cuts in order to try and reduce borrowing?
0:19:28 > 0:19:33I can see no reason how you can cut if you have got to save money.
0:19:33 > 0:19:37think what the gentleman's getting at is the fact that this enormous
0:19:37 > 0:19:40debt the country's built up, at some point the debt needs to go
0:19:41 > 0:19:44down which means payback, so it's not just an economic problem, but
0:19:44 > 0:19:49it's a moral problem. I also believe this generation that
0:19:49 > 0:19:51wracked up the debts has no right to pass on that bill to the next
0:19:51 > 0:19:54generation, to our grandchildren and children. We have got to think
0:19:54 > 0:19:58about that as well. That makes it all the more important, we have got
0:19:58 > 0:20:02to start the economy now. We need to get back to where the legacy
0:20:02 > 0:20:06came from. It was not as a result of Government spending, it was as a
0:20:06 > 0:20:10result of the banks very nearly crashing and going down and us
0:20:10 > 0:20:15having to rescue the banks. That is why we have to look at dealing with
0:20:15 > 0:20:18the banks. That is one of the issues. The lady at the front said
0:20:18 > 0:20:22we hadn't moved on in the past three or four years. That's true.
0:20:22 > 0:20:29We haven't reformed our banks. If you want to join in this debate
0:20:29 > 0:20:39on the economy or anything else, you can always do it by text or
0:20:39 > 0:20:41
0:20:41 > 0:20:46Let us go on to a question from Amanda Galvin, please?
0:20:46 > 0:20:52Do the panel think it's justified for the UK to suspend human rights
0:20:52 > 0:20:55values in order to pursue the deportation of one individual?
0:20:55 > 0:21:01Abu Qatada, of course. Nigel Farage? Well, it isn't going to
0:21:01 > 0:21:06happen. You know, this is classic, classic of this Tory party and
0:21:06 > 0:21:09Theresa May and they keep talking tough about human rights because
0:21:09 > 0:21:13they know the vast majority of the British public are enraged that we
0:21:13 > 0:21:18are not allowed to get rid of people like account Abu Qatada. So
0:21:18 > 0:21:23they keep promising that they'll do such things. In this case, they are
0:21:23 > 0:21:26thinking about temporarily suspending our membership of the
0:21:26 > 0:21:29European Convention on Human Rights. They won't do that, they don't
0:21:29 > 0:21:35intend to do that, they are just hoping that by saying something,
0:21:35 > 0:21:40they'll kick the issue into the long grass. The real reason is this
0:21:40 > 0:21:43; that we cannot be members of the European Union unless we are full
0:21:43 > 0:21:48signatories to the European court in Strasbourg. They've become one
0:21:48 > 0:21:52and the same thing. As we know from David Cameron, he's a great lover
0:21:52 > 0:21:55of our membership of the European Union, as indeed are the Liberal
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Democrats and the Labour Party. This is short-term politicing by
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Theresa May. They are terrified about what will happen to their
0:22:01 > 0:22:10vote next Thursday in the shire counties and they are sounding
0:22:10 > 0:22:13tough but they don't mean a word of APPLAUSE
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Simon Hughes? The answer to the question is, it would be ludicrous
0:22:16 > 0:22:21to withdraw from the European convention to deal with one case.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24We were the principal authors of the European Convention on Human
0:22:24 > 0:22:28Rights. It was the post-war initiative of Churchill and his
0:22:28 > 0:22:33allies to try to make sure Europe had a civilised set of values and
0:22:33 > 0:22:37we sent British lawyers to draft it and we have been signatories
0:22:37 > 0:22:40throughout. The European convention does things like defend your right
0:22:40 > 0:22:45to freedom of expression and your right to protest if you are a
0:22:45 > 0:22:49member of a Trade Union and your right to education and family life.
0:22:49 > 0:22:54I assume everyone here would regard that as very important.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58Occasionally, occasionally, the European court finds against this
0:22:58 > 0:23:03country. If we were to pull put of the European convention, what
0:23:03 > 0:23:07message would that send to Russia, Belarus and other countries like
0:23:07 > 0:23:11the Ukraine where people are on trial wondering about their human
0:23:11 > 0:23:14rights? How do we say to the States that we want decent treatment for
0:23:14 > 0:23:19people they want to extradite and we don't want them on death row?
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Where would we stand? The answer is absolutely not, we need to hold the
0:23:22 > 0:23:27convention and the Liberal Democrats were very clear when we
0:23:27 > 0:23:30entered into the coalition that for this Parliament we would keep
0:23:30 > 0:23:34everything that's a convention right and potentially build on it
0:23:34 > 0:23:44but not reduce it. Do you think there is any chance that...
0:23:44 > 0:23:47said, do you think there's any chance that the Conservative Party,
0:23:47 > 0:23:51the coalition, might allow itself with Labour and find a way of
0:23:51 > 0:23:55getting Qatada out, ignoring the convention, or indeed temporarily
0:23:55 > 0:24:01withdrawing from the convention, leaving you high and dry? No, I
0:24:01 > 0:24:05absolutely don't think so. Why not? Firstly, because the coalition
0:24:05 > 0:24:09agreement is clear that the two parties agreed we'd build on the
0:24:09 > 0:24:12convention and not change it. That was a deal done for five years and
0:24:12 > 0:24:16it holds. Secondly, Theresa May said very clearly in the House of
0:24:16 > 0:24:20Commons this week, I asked her myself, that she thought it would
0:24:20 > 0:24:25set a very bad example to break the law of the country and she didn't
0:24:25 > 0:24:28intend to do it. Thirdly, the Labour Party have signed up to the
0:24:28 > 0:24:30European convention and have never suggested that they think it should
0:24:30 > 0:24:35be broken. Imagine the Home Secretary or the Government saying,
0:24:35 > 0:24:39we think we can break the law now and put this man, however odious he
0:24:39 > 0:24:42is, back on the plane to Jordan. He was convicted in Jordan of offences,
0:24:42 > 0:24:47he should go back, the European court says it's perfectly possible
0:24:47 > 0:24:50that he could go back and I hope now that the deal's been done with
0:24:50 > 0:24:54Jordan that she'll be ratified in about three months and he'll be
0:24:54 > 0:24:59able to go back and I wonder why he hasn't been prosecuted in this
0:24:59 > 0:25:05country for some of the odious things he said here. That should
0:25:05 > 0:25:09have happened. I agree with Simon. I very much ask him that question -
0:25:10 > 0:25:13he's a vile individual, Abu Qatada, some things he said are dreadful
0:25:13 > 0:25:18and they would clearly be incitement to murder, so why has he
0:25:18 > 0:25:22not been put on trial in this country? That's what we should be
0:25:22 > 0:25:27doing, where we can guarantee a fair trial, we can have much
0:25:27 > 0:25:30respect for the jury system, 12 members of the public can decide
0:25:30 > 0:25:34his fate. Why do you think it hasn't been? Because the evidence
0:25:34 > 0:25:39isn't there? There's a lot of things the Security Services don't
0:25:39 > 0:25:43want out. A lot of issues about extraordinary rendition and issues
0:25:43 > 0:25:48about why he was allowed into this country in the first place. He was
0:25:48 > 0:25:51seen as the philosophical basis of the Mujahideen. This goes back to
0:25:51 > 0:25:56long-term policy in Afghanistan which has come back to haunt us.
0:25:56 > 0:26:00There's a lot of potential embarrassment. So there's a
0:26:00 > 0:26:06conspiracy not to prosecute him? lot of people in the Security
0:26:06 > 0:26:10Services don't want to do it. the Police Service's decision, no-
0:26:10 > 0:26:13one else's. You were not lent on? No, listen, the reality is if they
0:26:13 > 0:26:18were, that would be extremely serious. There's no question
0:26:18 > 0:26:23they've been lent on. Why do you think he's not been prosecuted? You
0:26:23 > 0:26:27said there's evidence to prosecute him, why hasn't he not been
0:26:27 > 0:26:31prosecuted? I believe there's enough evidence and if I was the
0:26:31 > 0:26:35CPS person, I would prosecute but I hope he can be sent home before the
0:26:35 > 0:26:39trial begins. The woman at the back? Simon Hughes
0:26:39 > 0:26:43says it's one person, I pick up a newspaper every day and read about
0:26:43 > 0:26:48foreign criminals who haven't been able to be deported, rapists
0:26:48 > 0:26:56murderers et cetera and I wonder what the judiciary is up to. They
0:26:56 > 0:27:01are certainly not supporting law- abiding society, British society?
0:27:01 > 0:27:05Sajid Javid? Not supporting the society? I have a lot of sympathy
0:27:05 > 0:27:08with the lady. Abu Qatada has no respect for our way of life and he
0:27:08 > 0:27:11should be on a plane to Jordan right now. We should get him out of
0:27:11 > 0:27:14the UK as quickly as we can. One thing we also know about him is
0:27:14 > 0:27:20that because he doesn't respect our country, he also doesn't respect
0:27:20 > 0:27:24the way we, as a country, observe the rule of law and that is
0:27:24 > 0:27:29something, the rule of law we can not give up, it's vitally important
0:27:29 > 0:27:34no Government ignores the rule of law. If the courts are proufr
0:27:35 > 0:27:38frustrated in the process, we have to respect that -- however. That is
0:27:38 > 0:27:42not the same as saying politicians can't change the law. If ultimately
0:27:42 > 0:27:46we need to change the law to get Abu Qatada on a plane and out of
0:27:46 > 0:27:51the country, that's what we need to do. If that means that we need to
0:27:51 > 0:27:57look at suspending our membership of the ECHR, that's what we need to
0:27:57 > 0:28:02look at as well. It isn't going to happen, is it? You are committed to
0:28:03 > 0:28:07membership of the EU which means we have to remain signatories, simple
0:28:07 > 0:28:11as that. The lady said she thought the judicial system was working
0:28:11 > 0:28:16against the interests of law- abiding people in this country and
0:28:16 > 0:28:19you said you agreed with that snfrpblgt with aspects of that. As
0:28:19 > 0:28:22the Conservative Party, it was our intention to replace the Human
0:28:22 > 0:28:26Rights Act put in place by the previous Government and replace it
0:28:26 > 0:28:29with a British bill of rites which protects your rights and recognises
0:28:29 > 0:28:36that with rights comes responsibilities, the two things go
0:28:36 > 0:28:39together. We haven't been able to do that. It's not a consensus among
0:28:39 > 0:28:44the coalition. You heard from Simon, there's a different set of views
0:28:44 > 0:28:49from the Liberal Democrats. We have put those views aside. But that is
0:28:49 > 0:28:52still our intention. I want to replace the Human Rights Act with a
0:28:52 > 0:28:56British Bill of Rights. Strasbourg court is the highest
0:28:56 > 0:29:01court in the land, that doesn't make any difference and that's the
0:29:01 > 0:29:11lady's question. We have surrendered the ability to make the
0:29:11 > 0:29:16
0:29:16 > 0:29:20decision in our own country. If we pulled out of the Convention,
0:29:20 > 0:29:25would we have to leave the European Union? It is an option we have to
0:29:25 > 0:29:28look at more carefully. I am not a lawyer and it is terribly
0:29:28 > 0:29:33complicated because you need legal advice across-the-board for this,
0:29:34 > 0:29:43but it should remain on the table as an option. Shouldn't human-
0:29:44 > 0:29:44
0:29:44 > 0:29:50rights applied to everyone, You do not think Abu Qatada is
0:29:50 > 0:29:54being properly treated by the courts? I think this argument about
0:29:54 > 0:29:58opting out of the European Convention on Human Rights is
0:29:58 > 0:30:05arbitrary, because the whole idea of human rights should be equal to
0:30:05 > 0:30:09everyone. As I can see from the response in the audience, I want to
0:30:09 > 0:30:12see Abu Qatada on a plane. We were told last year by the Home
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Secretary that he would be sent back to Jordan and it is my
0:30:16 > 0:30:20disappointing that he has not been. Ken Clarke said yesterday that even
0:30:20 > 0:30:24if we were to pull out of the European Convention on Human Rights,
0:30:24 > 0:30:30British law would also not send him back to Jordan, because we do not
0:30:30 > 0:30:35have the assurances we need that he will not be subject to torture.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39This man is despicable. This is a man that both the Home Secretary
0:30:39 > 0:30:43and the courts have said is very dangerous. He has advocated attacks
0:30:43 > 0:30:53against Jewish people. He has praised attacks against American
0:30:53 > 0:30:54
0:30:54 > 0:30:59people. He is Europe's right hand man, as has been told, for Al-Qaeda.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02And this man should not be allowed to be in the UK. But we need
0:31:02 > 0:31:07serious action from the Government, not promises that they are not
0:31:07 > 0:31:10going to keep. Using the European Convention on Human Rights is
0:31:10 > 0:31:15essentially a smokescreen for what the action is that they will take.
0:31:15 > 0:31:20The deal with Jordan has been done and it is ratified in the next few
0:31:20 > 0:31:28weeks. That should permit that he can go to Jordan. We will see what
0:31:28 > 0:31:33happens. Linda Almond, please. the panel think we should be able
0:31:33 > 0:31:39to stem the flow of Romanians and Bulgarians expected to arrive in
0:31:39 > 0:31:42January 2014? We had a number of questions on this issue. Does the
0:31:42 > 0:31:48panel think we should be able to stem the flow of Romanians and
0:31:48 > 0:31:52Bulgarians expected to arrive in January 2014? We should be able to
0:31:52 > 0:31:56make it less attractive for them wanting to come here. That is an
0:31:56 > 0:31:59exercise that Government is engaged in now, across the board, every
0:31:59 > 0:32:03department of Government, looking at what are the attractions for
0:32:03 > 0:32:08immigrants, particularly from these two countries, to come to Britain,
0:32:08 > 0:32:13whether it is welfare, jobs and so forth. But the honest truth is that
0:32:13 > 0:32:16in terms of taking bigger action, in terms of controlling our borders,
0:32:16 > 0:32:20we cannot do that unless we renegotiate the relationship we
0:32:20 > 0:32:23have with the European Union, because those rights were given up
0:32:23 > 0:32:27by the previous Government. This Government has inherited that
0:32:27 > 0:32:32situation and we have to respect the agreements that are in place.
0:32:32 > 0:32:37Until that changes, there is preyed little we can do about it. Are you
0:32:37 > 0:32:45nervous about it? It is politically sensitive and nobody's in stab a
0:32:45 > 0:32:48clue how many people might come. -- nobody seems to have a clue. When
0:32:48 > 0:32:51other eastern European countries join, especially Poland, the
0:32:51 > 0:32:55previous Government made a prediction it would be 80,000 and
0:32:55 > 0:32:59it turned out to be 800,000 from that part of the world. In this
0:32:59 > 0:33:03case, the number of countries that can accept people from Bulgaria and
0:33:03 > 0:33:08Romania from January next year is a lot larger, so it is not just
0:33:08 > 0:33:11Britain, which will have an impact in terms of the Barbarians and
0:33:11 > 0:33:17remain is that want to leave, spreading it out, but we cannot
0:33:17 > 0:33:23rely on that. -- Bulgarians and Romanians. We are looking at how we
0:33:23 > 0:33:27can have a better relationship with the European Union. How do you make
0:33:27 > 0:33:30it unattractive for people to come to Britain? For example, we have to
0:33:30 > 0:33:35make sure that the right to benefits, whether they are out-of-
0:33:35 > 0:33:39work benefits, housing benefits and others, do not taking unless you
0:33:39 > 0:33:47have met certain conditions, unless you have got my job. There are
0:33:47 > 0:33:50other issues. There are a lot of rules any wave. Before this takes
0:33:50 > 0:33:55place in January next year, there will be initiatives announced that
0:33:55 > 0:33:59will make a difference to this. If we want to control our borders we
0:33:59 > 0:34:02have to renegotiate with the European Union. This is what the
0:34:02 > 0:34:07Prime Minister set out when he said we need a new relationship with the
0:34:07 > 0:34:11European Union, which is why he has promised that there will be a
0:34:11 > 0:34:15referendum on Europe so that we can have the leverage to have this kind
0:34:15 > 0:34:19of change. You are going further than next January when this is
0:34:19 > 0:34:23meant to be happening. You talk about taking these measures, and
0:34:23 > 0:34:28you are going to pinpoint Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants and say,
0:34:28 > 0:34:34you are not going to be entitled to this. Is that what you mean? How
0:34:34 > 0:34:37are you going to select? measures would apply to anyone from
0:34:37 > 0:34:41the European Union that wants to settle in Britain. We have been a
0:34:41 > 0:34:45soft touch for people wanting to come to Britain, whether they are
0:34:45 > 0:34:50immigrants from the European Union or from outside. The measures will
0:34:50 > 0:34:54apply across the board. We should have tightened this up in the time
0:34:54 > 0:35:00of the previous Government, and now this Government is getting on with
0:35:00 > 0:35:06the job. The rhetoric around this, the rhetoric we have just heard is
0:35:06 > 0:35:10really disturbing. We depend, the NHS for health workers, bus drivers,
0:35:10 > 0:35:15our teachers, we depend on huge numbers of migrants who come to
0:35:15 > 0:35:19Britain and give much more than we give back to them. And what we have
0:35:19 > 0:35:23seen, sadly, is that the three largest parties have played into
0:35:23 > 0:35:27the utterly pernicious rhetoric of Nigel Farage, the anti-immigration
0:35:27 > 0:35:32rhetoric. We need to accept the facts about immigration, which is
0:35:32 > 0:35:36that we have the free movement of people across the European Union.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39That is free movement for us to go where we like, and free movement of
0:35:39 > 0:35:43peoples come here and contribute. They cannot just come here and
0:35:43 > 0:35:48collect benefits. There are all sorts of rules already, and we
0:35:48 > 0:35:58simply need to say that migration is a good thing for Britain.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01
0:36:01 > 0:36:06Migrants are contributing. I know many people feel concerned
0:36:06 > 0:36:10about migration. I talk to people on the doorstep. But about 60% of
0:36:10 > 0:36:14people say they are concerned about migration. When you ask them about
0:36:14 > 0:36:19their neighbourhood, only 20% say it is a problem in their
0:36:19 > 0:36:23neighbourhood. We have a right-wing media, four parties that are
0:36:23 > 0:36:32running a consistent anti- immigration, very nasty rhetoric
0:36:32 > 0:36:37that simply has to stop. We need to speak up for migrants. Nigel Farage.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41Yes, we should stem the flow, no question about it. I have just come
0:36:41 > 0:36:45back from Bulgaria and have been to Romania in the past. You have to
0:36:45 > 0:36:49see the poverty in these places to believe it, people doing jobs that
0:36:49 > 0:36:56cannot afford to keep their houses, struggling to put bread on the
0:36:56 > 0:36:59table. Like Britain, for example. It really is not funny. What is
0:36:59 > 0:37:03happening to those people, you have millions of people living in misery.
0:37:03 > 0:37:07They are being given the opportunity next year to come to a
0:37:07 > 0:37:11country that will welcome them, allow them to work and access the
0:37:11 > 0:37:16benefits system. And you cannot blame people from Bulgaria and
0:37:16 > 0:37:19Romania for wanting to do it. But there is a problem. We have 1
0:37:19 > 0:37:24million youngsters unemployed in this country at the moment. We do
0:37:24 > 0:37:27not need an open door to masses of unskilled labour at a time when our
0:37:28 > 0:37:33youngsters cannot get work. Secondly, what has happened since
0:37:33 > 0:37:362004 is that we have driven down wages, not just for the unskilled.
0:37:36 > 0:37:41Talk to skilled people in the construction industry, working in
0:37:41 > 0:37:45the IT game, or elsewhere. We have driven wages across the country
0:37:45 > 0:37:50down. And the third reason why we really need to say no to an open
0:37:50 > 0:37:56door to Bulgaria and Romania is that we are currently in London in
0:37:56 > 0:38:00the middle of a Romanian crime epidemic. The figures are truly
0:38:00 > 0:38:05astonishing. For only 80,000 Romanians living in Britain at the
0:38:06 > 0:38:10moment, in the Metropolitan Police area alone there have been nearly
0:38:10 > 0:38:1530,000 Romanian arrests in the last five years. That is without the
0:38:15 > 0:38:20rest of the country. The one thing I picked up from Bulgaria last week,
0:38:20 > 0:38:23speaking to a well-known national figure, he said the problem is that
0:38:23 > 0:38:27what you will get in the first wave next year are a lot of criminals
0:38:27 > 0:38:30who will come to Britain. Isn't it about time we said we are not
0:38:30 > 0:38:37prejudiced against anybody but it is about time we put the interests
0:38:37 > 0:38:47of our own people and our own community first?
0:38:47 > 0:38:47
0:38:47 > 0:38:52We have a proud heritage of immigration in this country, but it
0:38:52 > 0:38:56is not wrong to address people's very serious concerns about
0:38:56 > 0:39:00immigration. I hear it all the time. We need to look at the facts and
0:39:00 > 0:39:04the challenge is that we do not have the facts from his Government.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08We do not know how many people might come because we do not have
0:39:08 > 0:39:13figures from Government. That makes this conversation incredibly
0:39:13 > 0:39:18challenging. We need to look at how many people might come here. I saw
0:39:18 > 0:39:21the film of Nigel going to Bulgaria and it was interesting to hear from
0:39:21 > 0:39:25university students in Bulgaria who said they did not want to come here
0:39:25 > 0:39:28because they did not like our culture. We heard very deprived
0:39:28 > 0:39:35people saying they did not want to come because they did not like the
0:39:35 > 0:39:39weather. And it is colder there than it is here! May come from very
0:39:39 > 0:39:43strong family units. They said, I do not want to leave my family
0:39:43 > 0:39:48behind. But this is an abstract conversation because we do not know
0:39:48 > 0:39:55the figures. What about his point about criminal elements in
0:39:55 > 0:40:01Romanians who are here? Do you agree with that? I have not seen
0:40:02 > 0:40:05those figures. Simon Hughes, have you seen the figures? I am aware
0:40:05 > 0:40:13there have been some numbers of Romanians and others who live in
0:40:13 > 0:40:17London... Oh, come on!I am dealing with the question. I am aware of
0:40:17 > 0:40:21the crime figures in London. Crime figures have come down hugely in
0:40:21 > 0:40:25recent years, but there are some people from Eastern Europe who do
0:40:25 > 0:40:29commit crimes. I think we have to try to cool down the debate,
0:40:29 > 0:40:34otherwise we end up in a very unhelpful position and I resent
0:40:34 > 0:40:38Natalie suggesting that I have joined some Nigel Farage conspiracy
0:40:38 > 0:40:44against immigration. As a Liberal all my life I have argued the
0:40:44 > 0:40:48opposite case. Can I try very quiet be contesting a couple of things?
0:40:48 > 0:40:52One, look around his audience, even in Worcester, this is a very mixed
0:40:52 > 0:40:55community. Britain is a very diverse place. We benefit from
0:40:56 > 0:40:59immigration which has come from the fact that we went round the world
0:40:59 > 0:41:03and conquered it, and then we asked people to come here and help. We
0:41:03 > 0:41:10are the Great Britain that we are because of our mixed community.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14Secondly, the reason this is a topical issue is because when the
0:41:14 > 0:41:21eight countries, of which Poland was the largest, joined the
0:41:21 > 0:41:25European Union, the Labour government took a decision not to
0:41:25 > 0:41:28phase in the seven-year opportunity for them to come, but to allow
0:41:28 > 0:41:33everybody to come immediately. Sajid is quite right, they were
0:41:33 > 0:41:37working on the prediction of 80,000. I thought that was highly unlikely.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40I asked to slow the process but David Blunkett said it would be
0:41:40 > 0:41:46fine and we would allow them to come immediately. And a lot of
0:41:46 > 0:41:50people came, 800,000 people came. That, understandably, caused
0:41:50 > 0:41:55disruption to employment and other things and has made people nervous.
0:41:55 > 0:42:00Can we get to the point? Bulgaria and Romania, their ambassadors
0:42:00 > 0:42:04predicted this week there might be a total of 25,000 people coming. We
0:42:04 > 0:42:10cannot stop that now, but what we can do is to keep our own border
0:42:10 > 0:42:14controls, have much more effective control... Know we cannot, we are
0:42:14 > 0:42:17members of the European Union and anybody can come. You know
0:42:17 > 0:42:23perfectly well that we have our own border controls which we should not
0:42:23 > 0:42:27give up. The people running the Border Agency have done a poor job.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31We have not kicked out illegal -- illegal immigrants effectively. We
0:42:31 > 0:42:35need to do that. But then we need to make sure we understand that the
0:42:35 > 0:42:41way in which we deal with the issue that the lady raises is to make
0:42:41 > 0:42:44sure we have an economy that is successful, but that we have a
0:42:44 > 0:42:48change in the immigration rules that does not allow people who have
0:42:48 > 0:42:53just arrived to get the full range of benefits and the NHS that people
0:42:53 > 0:43:01have had who have lived here all their lives. The man in spectacles.
0:43:01 > 0:43:06The woman, I am sorry. We need to understand how could
0:43:06 > 0:43:13multiculturalism is for our society. Without international students,
0:43:13 > 0:43:18university campuses would be really dull.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20Nigel, you said you saw so much poverty in Romania and Bulgaria. Do
0:43:20 > 0:43:24you not think those people should have an opportunity to come
0:43:24 > 0:43:29somewhere like here and better their lives and lives for their
0:43:29 > 0:43:38families? If we had poverty here, we do not encourage us to go to
0:43:38 > 0:43:42other places where we could make our lives better? -- would you not?
0:43:42 > 0:43:45Simon Hughes, the immigrants you were talking about earlier were
0:43:45 > 0:43:52controlled. That is what we need now, control of people who come to
0:43:52 > 0:43:59this country, not an open door. do not have an open door. This is
0:43:59 > 0:44:05why there are so many illegal ones in here. We had a very ineffective
0:44:06 > 0:44:09Border Agency. It is ineffective because the illegals are in here.
0:44:09 > 0:44:19The Border Agency has done a bad job but we do not have an open-door
0:44:19 > 0:44:23policy. All three of the people who asked questions, I would like to
0:44:23 > 0:44:27respond all at once with the same answer. All three of you are right.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30My parents were immigrants. My father came to this country,
0:44:30 > 0:44:35started work as a bus driver, contributed to this country, as did
0:44:35 > 0:44:39my mother, and a respected this country, wanted to better their
0:44:39 > 0:44:44lives, and that is what brought them here. But the gentleman there
0:44:44 > 0:44:49is absolutely right about the issue is about control. That is what has
0:44:49 > 0:44:53gone wrong's. In the last 13 years with Labour there were 3.2 million
0:44:53 > 0:44:58new immigrants to the country, one of our highest rates, the highest
0:44:58 > 0:45:02rate the country has ever seen. Our borders were not controlled. It
0:45:02 > 0:45:06puts pressure on public services and infrastructure. We want to make
0:45:07 > 0:45:12sure people who come to that -- our country respect our way of life and
0:45:12 > 0:45:16the way we do things. Respect multiculturalism but also respect
0:45:16 > 0:45:21our way of life, try to learn the language and do more to integrate
0:45:21 > 0:45:25with the rest of the communities. That is what we want. Just two days
0:45:25 > 0:45:35ago it was St George's Day. Saint George was an immigrant from
0:45:35 > 0:45:43
0:45:43 > 0:45:48charge that Labour got it seriously wrong? There were things that we
0:45:48 > 0:45:52got wrong and we put our hands up to say we should have dealt with
0:45:52 > 0:45:55transitional controls appropriately. We introduced a points system but
0:45:55 > 0:45:59we should have done it earlier. The Government should be doing other
0:45:59 > 0:46:02things to address immigration. I want them to ensure that people who
0:46:02 > 0:46:05don't pay the national minimum wage to people outside this country are
0:46:05 > 0:46:08appropriately fined because at the moment that's not the case. I want
0:46:08 > 0:46:13a Border Agency that has appropriate resources, it's been
0:46:13 > 0:46:17cut by 10,000 so they can't do the job they are supposed to do. We
0:46:17 > 0:46:20have seen an increase in people absconding and the Border Agency
0:46:20 > 0:46:24can't do their job properly. The name has changed, I understand,
0:46:24 > 0:46:27this week. I want the Government to address the fact that there are
0:46:27 > 0:46:32some certain sectors like the construction sector, the care
0:46:32 > 0:46:36sector, the hospitality sector, where we see lots of migrants come
0:46:36 > 0:46:40into the UK to fill jobs in those areas. We should provide young
0:46:40 > 0:46:43people in this country with the skill and training to be able to do
0:46:43 > 0:46:48those jobs. A couple more points from the
0:46:48 > 0:46:52audience. The woman up there? talked about making Britain a less
0:46:53 > 0:46:58attractive place. How about we keep it a more attractive place but use
0:46:58 > 0:47:01our position as a member of the EU to raise the lower poverty in these
0:47:01 > 0:47:09nations, to keep those an attractive place? The person there
0:47:09 > 0:47:13on the left with the spectacles? The Romanian crime figures were
0:47:13 > 0:47:17mentioned. Surely these are as a result of making the country less
0:47:17 > 0:47:21attractive. If these immigrants have come from hostile situations
0:47:21 > 0:47:25as Nigel said, of sheer poverty, of course they are going to be unhappy
0:47:25 > 0:47:28and if they arrive here and we make an even worse place for them, I'm
0:47:28 > 0:47:32not surprised the crime figures are so high. I'm not saying it needs to
0:47:32 > 0:47:36be easy for them to settle here. However, I don't think we can use
0:47:37 > 0:47:42the crime rates as a fact of judgment for that. A brief answer,
0:47:42 > 0:47:47Nigel Farage? In these countries, there is a large minority who're
0:47:47 > 0:47:52completely ostracised from their own societies. Now, I do feel sorry
0:47:52 > 0:47:54for those people but we need to look after our own people and our
0:47:54 > 0:47:59own country first and this rubbish you are hearing from everybody else,
0:47:59 > 0:48:03the fact is if it's an Eastern European country, there are no
0:48:03 > 0:48:08limits to the number of people that can come, we have no control over
0:48:08 > 0:48:13numbers of people coming here from Romania and Bulgaria next year and
0:48:13 > 0:48:18that's absolute madness. It can't be changed by 2014, can it?
0:48:18 > 0:48:24could be. Have a referendum! I want to pick up two points. I
0:48:24 > 0:48:28agree with Mr Javid that's -- that there's too much pressure on
0:48:28 > 0:48:33housing and the problem is, we failed to invest in housing and the
0:48:33 > 0:48:38Public Services and the transport and that's where the problem lies.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41Nothing to do with that. I agree with you Mr Farage. Under the
0:48:41 > 0:48:44Labour Government, wages were driven down. That was a huge
0:48:44 > 0:48:51problem. There was a report in the Independent last week about how
0:48:51 > 0:48:54many people are not being paid the minimum wage but less. They are not
0:48:54 > 0:48:59paid for travelling time spent travelling between clients, for
0:48:59 > 0:49:05example. To have a living, minimum wage, enforce it properly and lift
0:49:05 > 0:49:08the standards for everybody. That's what we need to do.
0:49:08 > 0:49:12APPLAUSE A question from Kate Parkhouse,
0:49:12 > 0:49:16please? Will longer school days and shorter
0:49:16 > 0:49:19holidays really improve standards of education, or will children just
0:49:19 > 0:49:22be exhausted? The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, suggested
0:49:22 > 0:49:26pupils should spend more hours at school and have shorter holidays.
0:49:26 > 0:49:31He said this just last week. Simon Hughes, do you agree with him?
0:49:31 > 0:49:36schools do have longer hours already. I am the chair of
0:49:36 > 0:49:41Governors at a primary school, we have a breakfast club, children
0:49:41 > 0:49:45come in at eight, they have an after-school club... Longer than
0:49:45 > 0:49:50who? Longer than the conventional 9-3 day, many children are in
0:49:50 > 0:49:55school, primary and secondary, from 8 in the morning to 6 in the
0:49:55 > 0:50:00evening. So you think it's a good idea? Schools often close their
0:50:00 > 0:50:02days at 3 o'clock and are empty for the weekend and evening. They are a
0:50:02 > 0:50:05community resource, people benefit from being there and youngsters
0:50:05 > 0:50:10should have the opportunity to be there for longer hours, giving them
0:50:11 > 0:50:20a chance to do lots of other things they wouldn't otherwise do. Do you
0:50:20 > 0:50:24support what Michael Gove is doing? There is a ding I think theion make
0:50:24 > 0:50:29between after school activities and education systems. I want an
0:50:29 > 0:50:33education system based on evidence. A teacher at the weekend said, has
0:50:33 > 0:50:36Mr Gove been to a school, because of all the different proposals they
0:50:36 > 0:50:40are putting forward, they can't believe he's informed. We hear time
0:50:40 > 0:50:45and time again that Mr Gove's policys are pie-in-the-sky, coming
0:50:45 > 0:50:48from a Government that doesn't consult with teachers who're
0:50:48 > 0:50:52professionals who know what they are doing. I don't know if the
0:50:52 > 0:50:55evidence is there, I know they are currently doing a study and that Mr
0:50:55 > 0:51:00Gove's come up with his proposal having looked at the east. Is that
0:51:01 > 0:51:08appropriate for the UK? I don't know. There are studies that show
0:51:08 > 0:51:12that later starts are a good idea for teenagers. That is a good idea
0:51:12 > 0:51:16and some schools are introducing it. I don't want something Michael Gove
0:51:16 > 0:51:19picks out of the sky because he thinks it's a good idea.
0:51:19 > 0:51:25You, there? You have just said what I was going
0:51:26 > 0:51:31to say in fact, that the UCL in London, the academy, have
0:51:31 > 0:51:33introduced start times of 10 o'clock and have found a much
0:51:33 > 0:51:40better attendance and concentration rate amongst teenagers.
0:51:40 > 0:51:45What do the parents do? They can't go to work until 10. Can you leave
0:51:45 > 0:51:49teenagers happily on their own? don't know, I wouldn't condone that,
0:51:49 > 0:51:53but I would have thought if you were going to change the time, it
0:51:53 > 0:51:57would be difficult to change it for primaries and young children can't
0:51:57 > 0:52:01cope with a longer day, they don't need a day that long. Older
0:52:01 > 0:52:07children, maybe it's a good way of introducing them to hours for
0:52:07 > 0:52:13working than are longer than 9-3. You could say to the tairge, do you
0:52:13 > 0:52:18prom toys get out of bed for 10 o'clock. -- teenager. What do you
0:52:18 > 0:52:23make of the idea that Michael Gove just has these ideas that are not
0:52:23 > 0:52:26worked through? I don't think that's true at all. He's
0:52:26 > 0:52:30transforming education. It was failing rapidly under Labour. We
0:52:30 > 0:52:33were falling on the league tables. On this particular issue,
0:52:33 > 0:52:38independent schools, if you look at a lot of independent schools, a lot
0:52:38 > 0:52:42of them have longer hours, some even have school days on a Saturday
0:52:42 > 0:52:45or half a day on a Saturday. I think I'm right in saying that I'm
0:52:45 > 0:52:49the only one sitting at this table that went to a state school like
0:52:49 > 0:52:5390% of the population and state schools haven't benefitted from
0:52:53 > 0:52:57things like that until Michael Gove's come forward. I would like
0:52:57 > 0:53:01to see people in state schools try to see if they can benefit from
0:53:01 > 0:53:07these changes as well. More hours and shorter holidays? I'm very open
0:53:07 > 0:53:17to the idea, I think it's very sensible. The man at the back on
0:53:17 > 0:53:17
0:53:17 > 0:53:21the gangway? It seems like Mr Gove and the Government's plan is for
0:53:21 > 0:53:27everyone to work longer, have longer days, less Bank Holidays and
0:53:27 > 0:53:32longer school days. Frankly, that's not what we need. We need better
0:53:32 > 0:53:36quality, it's not working longer. It's exactly the same with
0:53:36 > 0:53:41basically we need to also atress the work life balance as well. You
0:53:41 > 0:53:45need to enjoy yourself as a child, you don't want to be at school all
0:53:45 > 0:53:48day, along with the workers, you don't want to be at work all day.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51You have got to enjoy life at the same time. There should be just as
0:53:51 > 0:54:00much focus on that, as well as getting people in school. You would
0:54:00 > 0:54:05cut the working day, would you? Well, I wouldn't mind the working
0:54:05 > 0:54:11day cut. The lady here, who is a teacher?
0:54:11 > 0:54:18currently work an outstanding academy in Worcester. To make
0:54:18 > 0:54:22school hours longer when we are talking about family, where is the
0:54:22 > 0:54:27family time? Where is the quality time with our family for our
0:54:27 > 0:54:33children? I have a 13-year-old daugter who came home from school
0:54:33 > 0:54:38the other day xaisted -- exhausted, came in had milk, toast, fell
0:54:38 > 0:54:42asleep. 13. -- daughter. She's working so hard when she's at
0:54:42 > 0:54:47school. You think she's not the exception to the rule? I know she's
0:54:47 > 0:54:50not. Tough mum driving her hard?No, I'm not, I'm the opposite. I love
0:54:50 > 0:54:54the fact she has the summer holidays to get that rounded
0:54:54 > 0:55:00education that we all need. Holidays are just as much of an
0:55:00 > 0:55:03education as being in school. We have forgotten the fact that the
0:55:04 > 0:55:09family picnic is free, apart from the food that you take, the nature
0:55:09 > 0:55:14walk you go on with them, the beach that you can stroll along. We have
0:55:14 > 0:55:20forgotten that. That's education too. We are so concerned about
0:55:20 > 0:55:24putting our children in a classroom from 8-6! I think Mr Gove needs to
0:55:24 > 0:55:30come into our schools and have a look at what the children would be
0:55:31 > 0:55:38doing between 8-6 when it wouldn't be with their families.
0:55:38 > 0:55:43Nigel Farage? I think Michael Gove is trying to
0:55:43 > 0:55:47make things better but I think he's a meany to try to stop the summer
0:55:47 > 0:55:50holidays and I agree because it's a chance for people to excel at sport
0:55:50 > 0:55:55and do different things, try the work place on a short-term basis.
0:55:55 > 0:55:58It's not the amount of time we spend at school. Like everything in
0:55:58 > 0:56:04your life, it's what we do during that time that really matters. The
0:56:04 > 0:56:07big problem we have with British education is that the gap now, and
0:56:07 > 0:56:11Sajid touched on this, the gap between the 7% that go to the
0:56:11 > 0:56:17private schools in Britain and the 93% that don't is wider than it's
0:56:17 > 0:56:21been for 100 years. Are you for abolishing private schools? No, I'm
0:56:21 > 0:56:24for re-introducing the one thing that gave bright children from poor
0:56:24 > 0:56:29backgrounds the chance to excel in politics, media, the arts and the
0:56:30 > 0:56:33world of sport, and that was the grammar school system which we
0:56:33 > 0:56:38should never have vandalised out of here.
0:56:38 > 0:56:43APPLAUSE I very much agree with the audience
0:56:43 > 0:56:46member who said we have to let children have a childhood. I also
0:56:46 > 0:56:51agree with Miss Berger about needing to look at the evidence. We
0:56:51 > 0:56:56have three days more days in the school year than the OECD average.
0:56:56 > 0:57:01We need to look at the evidence of what works. Mr Gove is presiding
0:57:01 > 0:57:04over a great increase in class sizes, particularly for the young
0:57:04 > 0:57:09children. He's introducing performance related pay, even
0:57:09 > 0:57:15though the OECD evidence is that that doesn't raise the performance
0:57:15 > 0:57:21of the school. Mr Gove doesn't dream up a bright idea and write it
0:57:22 > 0:57:27on the back of the envelope. What you said reminds me of an old
0:57:27 > 0:57:32Etonian saying he was educated during the holidays at Eton? Well,
0:57:33 > 0:57:37I learnt a lot, you know, the School of Life, and actually, we
0:57:37 > 0:57:41all went and there's probably not one of us here during their six
0:57:41 > 0:57:46weeks summer holidays has gone "Mum I'm bored, mum I want to do
0:57:46 > 0:57:50something, what can I do? "Wtion well what happened to us having
0:57:50 > 0:57:55boredom and learning to deal with that boredom? We don't. We have to
0:57:55 > 0:57:59get our kids doing something all the time and actually, they've lost
0:57:59 > 0:58:03their imagination because of that. We have to stop. Our hour is up.
0:58:03 > 0:58:07Sorry, I would have liked to have come to you. Next week, we are
0:58:07 > 0:58:12going to be in Dartford in Kent. The panel will have on it Shirley
0:58:12 > 0:58:17Williams, Victoria Coren and David Starkey, among others, and the week
0:58:17 > 0:58:23after that, we are in Coventry when we'll have David Davis and Germaine
0:58:23 > 0:58:26Greer on the panel. If you want to Greer on the panel. If you want to
0:58:26 > 0:58:31come to Dartford or Coventry, the address is on the screen. Ck apply
0:58:32 > 0:58:37that way or you can call us -- you can apply that way or you can call
0:58:37 > 0:58:41us. Thanks to the panel and thank you to you for being a wonderful