:00:12. > :00:15.the youngest audience we have ever had on Question Time, 16 and
:00:15. > :00:25.17-year-olds, the first week of this age to have the vote in the UK.
:00:25. > :00:28.
:00:28. > :00:31.Welcome to Question Time. On the panel tonight, the leader of
:00:31. > :00:38.the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson. Labour's deputy leader in
:00:38. > :00:43.Scotland, Anas Sarwar. Respect MP George Galloway. The SNP leader at
:00:43. > :00:48.Westminster, Angus Robertson. The broadcaster and columnist, Lesley
:00:48. > :00:58.Riddoch. And the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage, back in Edinburgh for
:00:58. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:10.the first time since he was chased The reason we have this young
:01:10. > :01:15.audience is that a Scottish parliament voted to allow 16 and
:01:15. > :01:20.17-year-olds to vote in next year's referendum on Scottish independence.
:01:20. > :01:24.But the debate is not about Scottish independence. We just want to know
:01:24. > :01:32.what this section of society think about some of the issues we face, as
:01:32. > :01:36.always, Question Time. The first question from Kieran Fitzgerald.
:01:36. > :01:41.surveillance of internet activity and acceptable price for national
:01:41. > :01:47.security? This is in light of revelations from the United States
:01:47. > :01:52.this week. George Galloway. Benjamin Franklin said those who will
:01:52. > :01:58.sacrifice liberty for security will, in the end, enjoy neither. The
:01:58. > :02:04.sacrificing of our liberties can only lead to a victory for those who
:02:04. > :02:07.wish to destroy liberty. And I think that the revelation, the
:02:07. > :02:12.whistleblower, instead of being extradited and sent to prison for
:02:12. > :02:19.the rest of his life, should be given a medal, should be given a
:02:19. > :02:25.Nobel Prize, because he has revealed illegal state surveillance on a
:02:25. > :02:33.truly gargantuan scale. The United States NSA, National Security
:02:33. > :02:38.Agency, has bugged three trillion telephone calls each year. Trillion
:02:38. > :02:43.telephone calls each year. There is mass surveillance of people in the
:02:43. > :02:48.United States, and that is bad enough. What is worse is that the
:02:48. > :02:55.British security services have been making use of the intelligence of us
:02:55. > :03:00.garnered in breach, actually, of British law. William Hague tried to
:03:00. > :03:08.play it down this week by saying he had authorised it. Frankly, I would
:03:08. > :03:14.not trust William Hague to guard our liberties in any respect. The best
:03:14. > :03:18.way to deal with the threat of terror in the world is to address
:03:18. > :03:28.the causes of terror in the world. And that will not be done by the
:03:28. > :03:32.
:03:32. > :03:36.state becoming ever more terrorist itself. I think the first thing we
:03:36. > :03:39.should do is recognise the important role that public servants in-house
:03:39. > :03:44.surveillance and security industry make to all of us to keep us safe
:03:44. > :03:48.every day. I think all of us should show appreciation to them. It is
:03:48. > :03:51.right that we have a system in place with democratic accountability and a
:03:51. > :03:57.tight legal framework and important the public has confidence in the
:03:57. > :04:00.work intelligence agency does. One, so they can have the support of the
:04:00. > :04:06.public, but secondly to make sure they are working within a legal
:04:06. > :04:11.framework. George Galloway says they are breaking it. It is right that
:04:11. > :04:15.citizens know the security agencies are law-abiding. That is why William
:04:15. > :04:20.Hague has serious questions to answer. Did he sign off on the
:04:20. > :04:24.surveillance agencies from the US to tap into British people's phones and
:04:24. > :04:28.e-mails? And if he did not, it is very clear that there has -- that if
:04:28. > :04:35.there has been any breach of UK law, those people and agencies should
:04:35. > :04:37.feel the full force of UK justice. But you actually want more
:04:37. > :04:44.surveillance. You are with the Home Secretary in wanting more
:04:44. > :04:48.surveillance. You have to get the balance right. You have to get the
:04:48. > :04:50.balance right in terms of keeping ourselves secure but protecting the
:04:50. > :04:54.rights to privacy. That is where you have to have a democratically
:04:54. > :04:59.accountable process but a tight legal framework. It is not
:04:59. > :05:02.acceptable to say to people, we expect you to be law-abiding
:05:02. > :05:05.citizens, and government ministers and agents themselves are not
:05:05. > :05:10.law-abiding. That is not accept the ball and it undermines public trust
:05:10. > :05:17.in what we are trying to do, keep us safe and stop terrorist attacks on
:05:17. > :05:20.the streets of the UK. As George Galloway said, the whistleblower is
:05:20. > :05:23.getting punished for breaching privacy laws, but the government
:05:23. > :05:33.does not get punished for breaching our privacy. What is the fairness in
:05:33. > :05:34.
:05:34. > :05:37.that? George Galloway was trying to trade off liberty against security.
:05:38. > :05:43.A responsible government has to balance one with the other. It is
:05:43. > :05:47.not picking one or the other, but finding the right balance. GCHQ, the
:05:47. > :05:51.agency in charge of this kind of monitoring in the UK, works within
:05:51. > :05:58.an incredibly tight legal framework. When it does surveillance
:05:58. > :06:01.operations, these have to be signed off by the Secretary of State. It is
:06:01. > :06:05.not 6000 desk jockey James Bonds looking through your e-mail account
:06:05. > :06:08.to see who you fancy. They are called the intelligence agency
:06:08. > :06:13.because they work on intelligence. If they were looking at everybody's
:06:13. > :06:18.date, they would not find anything because they would be snowed under.
:06:18. > :06:21.We have an incredibly important link with the United States. We have
:06:21. > :06:31.worked with the US to foil terror plots before and we will do again to
:06:31. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:49.keep people safe, but the framework that else's data sharing. But is it
:06:49. > :06:51.arriving from GCHQ, this information from the States? You say you would
:06:51. > :06:57.be snowed under, but as George Galloway said, trillions of calls
:06:57. > :07:03.have been checked. We have a guarantee that any data obtained in
:07:03. > :07:08.the UK from the US involving UK nationals is subject to the same UK
:07:08. > :07:13.statutory controls. What is the guarantee? William Hague's word for
:07:13. > :07:16.it? William Hague would have no time to do anything else if he was
:07:16. > :07:21.signing warrants every day for the British share of 3 trillion
:07:21. > :07:29.telephone calls each year. It stands to reason that the James Bonds that
:07:29. > :07:34.you talk about - although to me they look more like Austin Powers - at
:07:34. > :07:37.GCHQ, they must be freelancing on this. Otherwise we would never see
:07:37. > :07:47.William Hague's face because he would be in his office signing
:07:47. > :07:47.
:07:47. > :07:52.warrants all day. APPLAUSE
:07:52. > :07:55.To get specific to what I understand Edward Snowden to have done, he was
:07:55. > :07:58.not actually whistleblowing on the scale of phone call tapping, which
:07:58. > :08:03.we knew about. He was actually looking at Google
:08:03. > :08:07.and Facebook handing over details that you and your generation had
:08:07. > :08:14.thought you gave in trust to someone who was not a government, who was,
:08:14. > :08:17.in effect, your friend, who was perhaps an intermediary that let you
:08:17. > :08:20.connect with other friends. And it is that that is the most significant
:08:20. > :08:27.aspect of this. It is also significant that we cannot we sure
:08:27. > :08:31.now that the rules, the outlook that we have in Britain, is something
:08:31. > :08:36.that is at the heart of the way Google and Facebook are working.
:08:36. > :08:40.Because they are in an American jurisdiction. Just before we came on
:08:40. > :08:44.air, the US Supreme Court found against two companies that were
:08:44. > :08:49.trying to patented part of the DNA we are built from. That is the
:08:49. > :08:55.degree to which American companies very often want to get in and
:08:55. > :08:59.patents and control what actually belongs to all of us. Do you accept
:08:59. > :09:03.what Mark Zuckerberg said, which is that Facebook is not and never has
:09:03. > :09:10.been part of any programme to give the US or any government direct
:09:10. > :09:14.access to their servers? Or do you think he is deceiving us? As I
:09:14. > :09:20.understand it, Twitter were the only company that could save eight did
:09:20. > :09:25.not cooperate with PRISM. -- that could say they did not cooperate.
:09:25. > :09:30.Europe has a whistleblower charter in effect since 1998 that would not
:09:30. > :09:33.prosecute Edward Snowden. We need to stand up for different values. Let's
:09:33. > :09:38.set up our own Google and Facebook. Let's think of an opportunity out of
:09:38. > :09:46.this. We need to pull back our values from where they are at the
:09:46. > :09:49.moment because they are not safe in those hands. I agree we need to find
:09:49. > :09:54.a balance between surveillance and actually giving everyone privacy.
:09:54. > :10:02.But how do we find that balance and not crossover into being like big
:10:02. > :10:06.brother? Where would you come from that? Are you on Facebook? And are
:10:06. > :10:11.you unnerved about the access security people have too it? Yes. I
:10:11. > :10:19.feel I have made my account private and I should be allowed to keep that
:10:19. > :10:23.information private. And do you agree? Yes. I believe the national
:10:23. > :10:29.security is important but in this case it has been a case of behind
:10:29. > :10:33.our back is. Little Brother, Great Britain, bowing down to big mother,
:10:33. > :10:38.United States. It is time we stand up and put our foot down and say,
:10:38. > :10:47.these are our laws and what our democracy has decided and we should
:10:47. > :10:51.not bow down to the United States being more powerful. Do you agree?
:10:51. > :10:56.What worries me is that it is not just about surveillance but about
:10:57. > :11:02.storage. So it is what you are chatting about with other people on
:11:02. > :11:10.Twitter, on Facebook, on Skype, on e-mail traffic. It is much more than
:11:10. > :11:14.phonecalls, or thinking somebody is suspicious so let's start recording.
:11:15. > :11:21.It is recording billions of your conversations. I feel very uneasy.
:11:21. > :11:25.It is not just about GCHQ and the NSA in the United States of America.
:11:25. > :11:28.There are other places that what you are conversing with other people is
:11:28. > :11:34.being stored as well. An issue for me is about the storage of your
:11:34. > :11:37.information. I agree with George on this point. The idea that we should
:11:37. > :11:43.just trust in William Hague because he has said something in the House
:11:43. > :11:46.of Commons. Everything is all right now! I am sorry but I do not think
:11:46. > :11:50.everything is all right and I think this will be one of the big debates
:11:51. > :11:58.of years ahead. Your generation, more than any so far, has grown up
:11:58. > :12:02.using IT in a way that us on the panel never have. It is going to be
:12:02. > :12:05.even more important to you than it is to us, and we need to get it
:12:05. > :12:08.right. How would you change the framework? You are saying the
:12:08. > :12:12.protections in place, the idea that it has to be signed off by the
:12:12. > :12:17.Secretary of State, is not enough. What do you suggest? As soon as you
:12:17. > :12:20.tell people there as a whole area online which we will never look at
:12:20. > :12:25.and security services will not access, that is where people who
:12:25. > :12:30.want to do harm will move their activity. That is not my point.
:12:30. > :12:33.Everybody agrees that when there is a risk to society from extremists
:12:33. > :12:36.who are prepared to use violence, there should be appropriate measures
:12:36. > :12:42.in place to make sure that one can intercept telephones or other
:12:42. > :12:46.traffic. Nobody disagrees with that and those safeguards are in place.
:12:46. > :12:51.But we are dealing with an entirely new threat on the one hand, and on
:12:51. > :12:55.the other hand a whole big issue about how can one intercept but also
:12:55. > :13:04.store this information? Do you really think this is going to be
:13:04. > :13:08.destroyed? It is going to be kept for ever and ever. I think we need
:13:08. > :13:13.to start addressing issues as to why we are under threat in the first
:13:13. > :13:16.lace. It goes back to issues like the war on terror, where we are
:13:16. > :13:21.sending working-class people to fight illegal wars overseas for
:13:21. > :13:23.America's economic interest. It is time we stopped sending
:13:23. > :13:28.working-class people to fight for America's economic interest and
:13:28. > :13:38.started to bring people like Tony Blair and others up to The Hague to
:13:38. > :13:39.
:13:39. > :13:43.face the warcrimes tribunal that they deserve to face. I think we
:13:43. > :13:46.have a schizophrenic debate on this. We are horrified with what we have
:13:46. > :13:49.heard but three weeks ago in the wake of the Woolwich murders people
:13:49. > :13:56.were screaming and shouting and saying, the security services knew
:13:56. > :13:59.who these men were, so why was more not done? It is about balance.
:13:59. > :14:06.However, is what is potentially happening here and accept double
:14:06. > :14:10.price, was the question. I think when the Americans launched the war
:14:10. > :14:14.on terror under George Bush, they have gone so far down a road where,
:14:14. > :14:18.frankly, in America they have now launched a war on liberty and
:14:18. > :14:22.freedom. It applies not just to surveillance, but to a plea
:14:22. > :14:26.bargaining system, where if the state says you are guilty you have
:14:26. > :14:31.almost no choice but to plea-bargain, guilty. I would say
:14:31. > :14:35.Leslie is right, these are big American companies. And users have
:14:35. > :14:39.to be aware that if they are going through American internet service
:14:39. > :14:43.providers, their stuff is not safe. I hope we get some alternatives out
:14:43. > :14:47.of it and I do not want us to go down the route where we allow the
:14:47. > :14:50.liberty of millions of people in this country to be destroyed because
:14:50. > :15:00.we are following the Americans, who have frankly gone completely over
:15:00. > :15:03.the top. How you prevent it if you have got Facebook, if that's where
:15:03. > :15:07.you are working? How do you prevent it? People have to be cautious when
:15:07. > :15:17.using all forms of social media, about what they say and do. Do not
:15:17. > :15:17.
:15:17. > :15:21.think the that whatever you say on Facebook is private. It isn't.
:15:21. > :15:25.make the point of Internet companies such as Google and Facebook have
:15:25. > :15:31.come out and said, we have never been approached by national security
:15:31. > :15:36.agencies, so this is rubbish, but in fact, if the NSA did approach
:15:36. > :15:42.Facebook and Mark zukerburg said I've never heard of it, if they
:15:42. > :15:52.asked for information, under US law, Facebook would be obliged to deny
:15:52. > :15:53.
:15:53. > :15:57.any involvement from the NASA at all. That shows that if Governments
:15:57. > :16:01.are found to be showing information that they shouldn't be or requesting
:16:01. > :16:05.information they have no access to, they'll find a way to cover it up
:16:05. > :16:11.and do everything in their power to gag it. I actually agree with George
:16:11. > :16:14.Galloway when he says that people like Edward snowdon who it was
:16:14. > :16:17.revealed in the Guardian last week showed how easy it was for him to
:16:17. > :16:24.access information, we should be giving people like him a medal
:16:24. > :16:29.instead of prosecuting hum. One more point then we'll move on. You in the
:16:29. > :16:34.checked shirt there on the gangway? Yes, we have talked about justice
:16:34. > :16:37.and what should be allowed. I think we can all agree that Internet
:16:37. > :16:41.surveillance can be used for good and a way forward for this to
:16:41. > :16:44.improve the situation is for there to be an international law to mean
:16:44. > :16:49.that whenever Internet surveillance is used, it's completely transparent
:16:49. > :16:51.with the co-op Russian of both Governments and both intelligence
:16:52. > :17:00.agencies so that we don't have this American citizen stying on British
:17:00. > :17:06.citizens which is unjust -- cooperation. Before we leave this,
:17:06. > :17:10.put your hands up if you are on social media, Facebook or otherwise?
:17:10. > :17:14.Everybody. Put your hands up if you are worried about what you have
:17:14. > :17:21.heard this week? About half of you. OK. We'll go on to another question.
:17:21. > :17:31.Just to say before we do, you can join in tonight's debate from home,
:17:31. > :17:33.
:17:33. > :17:37.text or Twitter - watch out, you are Fiona Murray's question, please?
:17:37. > :17:40.What benefits would independence bring for young people in Scotland?
:17:41. > :17:46.Very straightforward question. What benefits would independence bring?
:17:46. > :17:52.Who'd like to start on this? Maybe you should, Angus? The advantages...
:17:52. > :17:57.Not at too great a length. There are six of us a here. Haver good.
:17:57. > :18:02.Although I notice on the panel we have four politicians from other
:18:02. > :18:10.political parties who're of posed and only one who's in favour -- of
:18:10. > :18:13.pose and one o only one in favour. APPLAUSE
:18:13. > :18:17.Parity would be good. It's worth observing we have a really important
:18:18. > :18:22.election in Scotland taking place next week in Aberdeen and we have
:18:22. > :18:31.two representatives who have much to say on the panel tonight from
:18:31. > :18:32.parties who don't have any representation. Pf
:18:32. > :18:36.There are two political parties representing the Scottish Parliament
:18:36. > :18:39.who're part of the election next week. Sorry, Question Time does not
:18:39. > :18:45.follow by-elections, never has, national elections yes. Sorry, we
:18:45. > :18:50.never do. By-elections. On the independence issue, this audience is
:18:51. > :18:53.divided 50/50 on that issue. Now make your point? I will. One of the
:18:53. > :18:56.big differences with independence is that we wouldn't be mucked around in
:18:56. > :19:00.the way that we have in the relation to this programme tonight. We'd
:19:00. > :19:04.always have the Parliament that we elect, we'd always have the
:19:04. > :19:08.Government that we wish and the decisions that would be made in the
:19:09. > :19:13.Scottish Parliament, not just about things limited at the present time
:19:13. > :19:16.with devolution, education, health and so on, working much better
:19:17. > :19:20.eunder devolution would happen with the other powers over the economy,
:19:20. > :19:25.over Foreign Affairs and over defence, things that really matter.
:19:25. > :19:29.It's about how do we create jobs and make our economy grow quicker? How
:19:29. > :19:38.do we play a role in the world and get nuclear weapons out of our
:19:38. > :19:41.country? We never wanted them here in the first place.
:19:41. > :19:45.APPLAUSE So the difference is there for
:19:45. > :19:50.everybody, especially for the young. That's why I'm so proud that it's
:19:50. > :19:54.the SNP who propose that 16 and 17-year-olds should have a vote in
:19:54. > :19:57.this very important referendum. My first speech was about lowering the
:19:57. > :20:01.vote to 16 and 17-year-olds, it's important for democracy to get the
:20:01. > :20:05.young and next generation to be part of the democratic process. I'm proud
:20:05. > :20:09.the SNPs delivered it and weapon the arguments have been had, you are
:20:09. > :20:16.going to be an important part of that yes vote that will make
:20:16. > :20:21.Scotland an independent, successful country. - woman on the right?
:20:21. > :20:25.You say that we are getting mucked about right now, but do you not
:20:25. > :20:29.think the SNP are mucking us about because we are not getting answers
:20:29. > :20:35.on free tuition, how are you going to subsidise education and how do we
:20:35. > :20:43.know it will be as good as it is right now? Because the NSP in -- SNP
:20:43. > :20:48.is in Government right now. I The remarkable thing about the
:20:48. > :20:53.intervention there is that he's so worked up about representation on
:20:53. > :20:56.the panel today. You have the SNP saying we want to keep the pound but
:20:56. > :21:00.lose our influence over it, the Bank of England set our mortgage and
:21:00. > :21:03.interest rates. We want the UK sharing of the welfare state. He
:21:03. > :21:09.wants political representation but less representation for Scots and
:21:09. > :21:13.important UK institutions have a say on every day life in Scotland. Young
:21:13. > :21:17.people need not politics of grudge and grievance, they need gin win
:21:17. > :21:21.offers of how to get not just constitutional change which talks
:21:21. > :21:26.about which politicians and what building, about how to get genuine
:21:26. > :21:29.social and economic change so every young person has the ability, no
:21:29. > :21:34.matter where they live, whether London, Edinburgh, Manchester, has
:21:34. > :21:40.the opportunity to get a quality education. You don't think that will
:21:40. > :21:44.be delivered? By independent? the wrong solution for the wrong
:21:44. > :21:47.problem. How do we make sure everyone can maximise their full
:21:47. > :21:52.potential and have a country based on social justice and fairness, not
:21:52. > :21:57.division. That's not just a priority for people in my constituency, that
:21:57. > :22:01.ends with the line in England and Scotland. Let's stop obsessing about
:22:01. > :22:07.the issues of politics and talk about the real issues about how to
:22:07. > :22:13.get genuine change in communities so every young person can be an asset
:22:13. > :22:18.to this country and get jobs. APPLAUSE
:22:18. > :22:22.You, there? George said it was his idea to introduce the 16 and
:22:22. > :22:26.17-year-olds get. Ing the right to vote. When I voted 17, I wouldn't
:22:26. > :22:29.have knew what to vote for, I don't think particularly giving it to
:22:29. > :22:38.young people is the right option. Angus said that, yes. The person
:22:38. > :22:46.over there in suspecticals on the left? Yes. -- stect Kells. An dues
:22:46. > :22:50.-- spectacles. Angus mentioned jobs. Thousands of jobs are going to be
:22:50. > :22:54.lost from companies moving down to England and moving down to the
:22:54. > :23:01.defence contracts in this country. How on earth can you justify those
:23:02. > :23:05.unemployed people? APPLAUSE
:23:05. > :23:13.I've got a very clear idea of the kind of country I want to live in
:23:13. > :23:13.and it's a country that doesn't use Trident or nuclear weapons for its
:23:13. > :23:20.defence... APPLAUSE
:23:20. > :23:25.It's a country that puts equality as THE most important social goal on
:23:25. > :23:30.all policies which understands that inequality basically erodes trust
:23:30. > :23:33.between us, between Government and citizens. It's a country that puts
:23:33. > :23:37.education top and recognises early years education would transform life
:23:37. > :23:43.and it's a country that embraces renewables, particularly Scotland,
:23:44. > :23:48.because we are the Saudi Arabia of renewables and starts our engineer
:23:48. > :23:51.engineering prospects back again by basing it on that. I have to ask
:23:52. > :23:57.myself, how is that going to happen in my lifetime? Mine will be shorter
:23:57. > :24:05.than yours. I would like to see change in my lifetime and I've
:24:05. > :24:09.actually voted every party, I have to say except sorry Ruth, the
:24:09. > :24:11.Tories... Still time.No, there's not.
:24:11. > :24:18.APPLAUSE We have to make a judgment and next
:24:18. > :24:23.year, as things stand, I will vote yes. Now, the reason I will vote yes
:24:23. > :24:26.is not the great big yes that Angus has to do as a member of the
:24:26. > :24:31.Scottish National Party and I just want to say this, I'm a journalist
:24:31. > :24:35.and I want to be automobile to keep question policies that don't sound
:24:35. > :24:40.quite right. All the sorts of aspects of the debate that make it a
:24:40. > :24:43.hard one to be in and there's an important point in this. I come from
:24:43. > :24:48.Northern Ireland originally and there are camps there, there's yes
:24:48. > :24:53.and no, people who don't talk to each other now after 50 years of
:24:53. > :24:57.trouble. We don't want to get to a stage where we can't talk to each
:24:57. > :25:00.other easily about our future together. That's a consideration.
:25:00. > :25:07.Having said all these qualifications, on balance I'll vote
:25:07. > :25:12.yes. APPLAUSE
:25:12. > :25:18.The man at the very back by the camera with the spectacles on, yes?
:25:18. > :25:22.I would just like to say that I know that some of you say that if we
:25:22. > :25:26.become independent we lose our influence in the Bank of England,
:25:26. > :25:30.but the Bank of The UK is needed. Scotland has a 10% influence in the
:25:30. > :25:35.Bank of England which we would maintain after independence if we
:25:35. > :25:40.kept the pound. So there is no guarantee we'd lose it whatsoever.
:25:40. > :25:45.Angus is churl churlish in his introductory remarks on the SNP.
:25:45. > :25:52.They are a pointer, illuminating as to the kind of Scotland you as 16
:25:52. > :25:56.and 17-year-olds would inherit. His belief that someone like me has to
:25:56. > :26:01.right to be on a BBC Question Time programme because I don't currently
:26:01. > :26:08.have an address in Scotland is rather typical of the narrow minded
:26:08. > :26:17.and narrow outlook that informs his kind of politics, similarly when
:26:17. > :26:20.Nigel Farage was run out of Edinburgh as David put it...
:26:20. > :26:25.APPLAUSE Not sure whether you are applauding
:26:25. > :26:32.because you believe that. I wasn't run out, I was locked in a pub, all
:26:32. > :26:37.right. That's what happened! George Galloway? Must have been
:26:37. > :26:40.hell, Nigel, must have been hell. This is the point. When he was
:26:40. > :26:46.treated in the way he was when he was in Edinburgh, Alex Salmond had
:26:46. > :26:50.the opportunity to be statesmanlike, to deplore what had happened, to say
:26:50. > :26:55.that everyone was welcome in Scotland, everyone with an elected
:26:55. > :27:05.position, everyone with a following in the country had a right to speak
:27:05. > :27:08.and be heard. But he didn't. He backed the people that saw the lead
:27:09. > :27:11.of the UKIP which I deplore as a party, as it happens. But he is an
:27:11. > :27:19.elected leader of a party with substantial support in these
:27:19. > :27:24.islands. Not in Scotland. That's not the point. It is the point.
:27:24. > :27:29.APPLAUSE Can I... There you go. Lesley is...
:27:29. > :27:33.I'm not going to shout louder than you. Do you know the percentage vote
:27:33. > :27:43.they got at the last election here? That's not the point. It's never the
:27:43. > :27:49.
:27:49. > :27:53.point. It was 0. 2... All of us have got the right to speak. Unless the
:27:53. > :27:57.kind of Scotland you have in mind. Angus Robertson will decide who
:27:57. > :28:01.appears on the BBC Question Time, rather than David Dimbleby. I don't
:28:01. > :28:06.want to be in that kind of Scotland. I don't want to be in the kind of
:28:06. > :28:10.country where politicians sit with a slide roll and say, you can be on,
:28:10. > :28:14.but you can't because you no longer live here, you can't because you
:28:14. > :28:18.have only got X number of votes. What I'm saying to you is, what
:28:18. > :28:24.happened to Farage looked ugly in the rest of the country and the rest
:28:24. > :28:29.of the world. And the SNP I fear will take you down a road where
:28:29. > :28:37.grudge is everything. All right. Where grudge and
:28:37. > :28:40.churlishness is everything. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:28:40. > :28:44.Angus, can you just reply on the narrow point of what George was
:28:44. > :28:47.saying and the quote from Alex Salmond was "we can frankly do
:28:47. > :28:55.without UKIP who dislike everybody and know absolutely nothing about
:28:55. > :29:01.Scotland? " Do you concur with all that? I concur with it absolutely.
:29:01. > :29:09.I'm proud that Scotland is a country that welcomes people from other
:29:09. > :29:13.countries. It wasn't like that the other week, was it?
:29:13. > :29:17.APPLAUSE It's hatred. Hatred. It's a country
:29:17. > :29:21.built on immigration and welcoming people from other places. That's a
:29:21. > :29:26.world of difference to disagreeing with the politics that you
:29:26. > :29:32.represent, Nigel. It's a politics I deplore and I'm pleased you do not
:29:32. > :29:36.have a single elected MP, MSP, or councillor in Scotland. You
:29:36. > :29:43.represent next to nobody in Scotland. I'll defend your right to
:29:43. > :29:48.speak but I would also like the right of people... I will reflect
:29:48. > :29:58.and respect the right of people to protest and say, we do not like your
:29:58. > :30:03.
:30:03. > :30:07.to have a debate about what independents really means because I
:30:07. > :30:15.think you have been sold a false debate. UKIP does exist in Scotland
:30:15. > :30:20.and we are growing in the polls. are not. You seem to be of the same
:30:20. > :30:23.school of thought, and it is astonishing that the UKIP -- the
:30:23. > :30:26.Scottish media seem to think UKIP should not be allowed to express
:30:26. > :30:30.their opinion in Scotland. What happened was an attempt to close
:30:30. > :30:34.down my press conference when I was trying to have a debate. Any proper
:30:34. > :30:39.democratic party will say whether we agree or disagree, you can put your
:30:39. > :30:43.arguments. Your leader, Alex Salmond, made clear he was quite
:30:43. > :30:47.happy for the nationalist movement to have within it very extreme
:30:47. > :30:50.anti-democratic people that behaves like yobs. And that does not
:30:50. > :30:53.represent the vast majority of decent Scottish people and I thought
:30:53. > :31:03.Alex Salmond showed there is a very ugly side to this independence
:31:03. > :31:04.
:31:04. > :31:11.debate. You were saying you did not agree. Coming back to what the UKIP
:31:11. > :31:20.leader said, Scottish people receive the same treatment heading down
:31:20. > :31:28.south. Not politically, but within the streets themselves. I am sorry.
:31:28. > :31:33.I am sorry. Enlarge on that point. What are you saying? Think about it.
:31:33. > :31:41.You were seen out why these yobs, yet England is seen as a country
:31:41. > :31:44.that defends itself, correct? England, glorious England. But when
:31:44. > :31:54.we come down south, we are treated with the same disrespect that you
:31:54. > :31:54.
:31:54. > :31:59.were. Ruth Davidson. We have got away from what the question was
:31:59. > :32:03.supposed to be about. What elephants would independents bring to young
:32:03. > :32:08.people? All that we have had is three alpha males on the panel
:32:08. > :32:10.shouting about petty niggles. Everyone should have a voice, but
:32:10. > :32:17.people who ask legitimate questions should have them answered and should
:32:17. > :32:21.not be told, when they are asking questions like this, that just
:32:21. > :32:25.because you are asking a question you are doing Scotland down. People
:32:25. > :32:28.deserve answers in the debate on independence. They deserve an
:32:28. > :32:33.informed choice. I believe young people growing up in Scotland have a
:32:33. > :32:36.gradient of opportunity because we are part of the United Kingdom.
:32:36. > :32:40.Because we are part of the biggest trading block we have. We trade more
:32:40. > :32:43.in Scotland with the rest of the UK than with the rest of the world
:32:44. > :32:46.combined. One in five jobs in private-sector employment in
:32:46. > :32:51.Scotland is in a company that is headquartered in England, or
:32:51. > :32:55.Northern Ireland. We all benefit from the kind of research network
:32:55. > :32:59.the question asked about among universities. We benefit from being
:32:59. > :33:05.part of the United Kingdom that sits at the top table, whether at the
:33:05. > :33:12.UN, the IMF, in the EU, the G8 group of developed nations. I think we
:33:12. > :33:20.gain an awful lot. Whether it is even something as small to some
:33:20. > :33:26.people... If you want to throw war into the mix, let's talk about
:33:26. > :33:30.Kosovo. As a junior reporter, I saw what our forces did over there. We
:33:30. > :33:35.helped to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide. We did that. Scottish
:33:35. > :33:41.soldiers did that. I was watching the Black Watch do that. What has
:33:41. > :33:46.that got to do with independence? Angus was saying we are not a force
:33:46. > :33:51.for good in the world. I believe the UK is a force for good and we have
:33:51. > :33:55.demonstrated that with the work our Armed Forces do overseas. I said at
:33:55. > :34:01.the beginning of this question that you are divided fifth a 50, those
:34:01. > :34:08.who are inclined to vote yes and no. I do not want to pick haphazardly.
:34:08. > :34:16.-- 50 to 50. I would like to ask who is going to vote yes. The person
:34:16. > :34:22.right at the back. We are talking about the benefits of independence
:34:22. > :34:26.to young people. I do not feel young people within the UK are seeing many
:34:26. > :34:31.benefits as being a member of the UK, because currently the child
:34:31. > :34:38.poverty rate is so high. I do not believe it is helping us at all.
:34:38. > :34:42.You, over there. Something came out that this is the first generation of
:34:42. > :34:49.young people in the UK that are going to grow up poorer than their
:34:49. > :34:52.parents since the early 1950s. Also, since the early 1950s, if you take
:34:52. > :34:55.back the result of every general election in the UK and take
:34:55. > :35:00.statistics out of it, you will see that the Scottish vote made
:35:00. > :35:03.absolutely no difference. So representation does not come into it
:35:03. > :35:11.and values do not come into it because it would not have made a
:35:11. > :35:21.difference in the first place. I believe if we become independent
:35:21. > :35:23.
:35:23. > :35:31.we will be one step closer to finding aliens. What? In the front.
:35:31. > :35:35.Did he say what I think he said? the list of the most peaceful
:35:35. > :35:39.countries in the world, Ireland scored in the top ten and the UK did
:35:39. > :35:42.not score anywhere near the top ten. In an independent Scotland without
:35:42. > :35:47.Trident and things like that, we would be able to become one of the
:35:47. > :35:51.more peaceful countries in the world. That might be true, but
:35:51. > :35:56.remember, this independence debate is being had. The SNP are saying
:35:56. > :35:59.vote for legal separation from the United Kingdom, and then let's join
:35:59. > :36:04.the European Union, which, of course, is developing its own
:36:04. > :36:07.foreign policy, its own military. And the most remarkable thing,
:36:07. > :36:10.getting back to the original question, is that actually there
:36:10. > :36:15.will be no benefits for young people, middle aged people or old
:36:15. > :36:19.people, because you are not being asked to vote on independence. You
:36:19. > :36:23.are swapping your masters from Westminster to Brussels. That is the
:36:23. > :36:33.debate that needs to be had in Scotland. The SNP are not offering
:36:33. > :36:36.independence. There are a couple of things that are important to
:36:36. > :36:40.understand in the context of the independence debate, especially for
:36:40. > :36:43.people who are not in Scotland. It is not just the SNP in favour of
:36:43. > :36:48.independence. There are people in other parties in favour of
:36:48. > :36:55.independence. There are people who are left of centre, right of centre,
:36:55. > :37:00.young and old. This is not just a proposal from one political party.
:37:00. > :37:03.Point two, this is about changing Scotland and Scottish democracy. At
:37:03. > :37:11.the present time, we are governed by the leading party, the Conservative
:37:11. > :37:16.party, that has one MP. Can you imagine a normal democracy where you
:37:16. > :37:22.have governments elected with so little present nation? That is not
:37:22. > :37:25.democracy. To go back to Nigel's point, if Scotland is sovereign, our
:37:25. > :37:29.Parliament can make all the decisions. It can make the decision
:37:29. > :37:35.to share sovereignty. I am in favour of sharing sovereignty and working
:37:35. > :37:39.with other countries. It is about the ability to make law. The reality
:37:39. > :37:43.is that we need to work with other countries, but what is critical is
:37:43. > :37:47.that once Parliament is able to make all the decisions. The decisions
:37:47. > :37:54.that will make the economy grow, make society more just and allow us
:37:54. > :38:00.to play a direct role in the world. That is why I am sure that people
:38:00. > :38:04.will vote for it. Why? Because 100 years ago there really were not that
:38:04. > :38:09.many independent states in the world and members of the United Nations.
:38:09. > :38:14.Now, there are over 200 and there is nobody going back and saying, I want
:38:14. > :38:17.to be run from the masters, or the form of governance from the past.
:38:17. > :38:23.Independence is the normal state for nations and gives the best
:38:23. > :38:27.opportunity to everybody, young and old, and that is why I think we will
:38:27. > :38:30.vote for it. I have to get in here because there are a lot of
:38:30. > :38:35.pejorative words. Can you pick up the point that Angus made that there
:38:35. > :38:42.is only one Tory MP in Scotland and yet a Tory government in Westminster
:38:42. > :38:46.decides and that is not right and fair. There are SNP MPs in
:38:46. > :38:51.Westminster. The point I wanted to pick up on was the pejorative terms
:38:51. > :38:57.Angus is using about slaves and masters. I do not feel that the UK
:38:57. > :39:00.is a master and I am a slave. We are part of a shared endeavour we have
:39:00. > :39:03.built over 300 years. All of the things we have built and created
:39:03. > :39:06.together, the work we have done together. When Angus Robertson talks
:39:06. > :39:10.about polls and some people from some parties believing in
:39:10. > :39:17.independence, not just the SNP, let's look at that. The last poll of
:39:17. > :39:22.SNP voters, only 61% said they would vote yes. That was fewer than the
:39:22. > :39:27.number of SNP voters that wanted an in-out referendum, which was 63%.
:39:27. > :39:31.But they will not offer that. He is twisting the facts to fit his
:39:31. > :39:39.agenda. We have to remember we are an integral part of the UK and
:39:39. > :39:43.because Scotland is part of the UK, the UK is better for it. Recent
:39:43. > :39:49.surveys show that the UK is the most regionally balanced country in
:39:49. > :39:55.Europe. We have an overheated south that is causing problems for every
:39:55. > :39:58.other part of the UK, probably more for northern parts of England than
:39:58. > :40:02.for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Is anybody else willing to
:40:02. > :40:08.tackle that? Can we have a conversation in the UK about a
:40:08. > :40:14.system here in which, unbelievably, according to analysts, one in 29
:40:14. > :40:17.Londoners are dollar millionaires. I checked that about three times. It
:40:17. > :40:23.is almost impossible to believe. We have massive disparities of wealth
:40:23. > :40:29.in this country. They are not just unequal. We are the fourth most
:40:29. > :40:33.unequal state in the world, the UK. Now, is that the best we can do? And
:40:34. > :40:39.is that really the future the UK offers? Is the mother of Parliament
:40:39. > :40:43.is proud of having turnouts of 30%. We are the laughing stock of Europe
:40:43. > :40:48.with these low turnouts, upon which massive decisions are made by a
:40:48. > :40:54.centralised state in London, which is passing laws and policies that
:40:54. > :40:59.suit that particular corner of the UK at the expense of everyone else.
:40:59. > :41:05.If the rest of the UK was up for it, and in 2004 the north-east of
:41:05. > :41:09.England, the Geordies, had the chance to vote, and 77% of them said
:41:09. > :41:15.no. I started life, good grief, as a liberal. I believed in a federal
:41:15. > :41:19.Britain. Is it ever going to happen? Evidently not. You have to get to a
:41:20. > :41:22.stage when you think, what is likely to happen in my lifetime? Having a
:41:22. > :41:28.proper, reasoned conversation about changing the whole lot written is
:41:28. > :41:32.not possible when we are the Scots, we are the tail wagging the dog. The
:41:32. > :41:35.dog is not interested in the vision we have for the future. And I think
:41:35. > :41:43.that is why many people will finally come to a decision that they have to
:41:43. > :41:46.do something a bit more radical to get that. We do not want to stay on
:41:46. > :41:49.this for the rest of the programme but we will now switch and I would
:41:49. > :41:55.like comments on what Leslie and Angus have said from those who say
:41:55. > :42:02.they will vote no when the time comes next year. You, with the pink
:42:02. > :42:06.shirt. I do not think that is what Scotland needs. It needs stability
:42:06. > :42:16.and construction. This will lead us down a path where we have nothing to
:42:16. > :42:17.
:42:17. > :42:21.go. And you in the front.I would say I would vote to know at the
:42:21. > :42:25.moment but I am on the fence. At the moment, the independence debate has
:42:25. > :42:31.ended up being quite ugly, in that we have people very much for it and
:42:31. > :42:34.spouting the good things, and people very much against it. I do not think
:42:34. > :42:38.we are hearing much balance in terms of, this is what would happen to the
:42:38. > :42:44.economy, these are the benefits for young people and these are the
:42:44. > :42:50.drawbacks. I think there needs to be more clarity. I absolutely agree
:42:50. > :42:56.with that. We need politics and debate based on fact and not on myth
:42:56. > :42:59.and assertion, which is what we have had from the SNP so far. It is a
:42:59. > :43:03.case of saying, what you like will stay the same and the things you do
:43:03. > :43:06.not like will not happen any more. People in big business will cut
:43:06. > :43:10.corporation tax, and at the same time it is saying to trade unions
:43:10. > :43:14.and the third sector we will have record levels of public services.
:43:14. > :43:21.That is not being straight. You cannot have Scandinavian levels of
:43:21. > :43:23.public services and the tax system of Monaco. It is not credible, not
:43:23. > :43:26.good arithmetic. But the wider point about the politics you have seen on
:43:26. > :43:30.the panel today, you have one political party that wants to divide
:43:30. > :43:35.by people's origin within communities, another that wants to
:43:35. > :43:38.divide our country by those who are in work and those who are out of
:43:38. > :43:42.work, those who are skiving and those who are striving, and one
:43:42. > :43:46.political party that wants to divide based upon where you live in the UK.
:43:46. > :43:50.We need a politics and government in this country that does not run by
:43:50. > :43:52.the politics of division in principle -- and grievance, but by
:43:52. > :44:02.the principle of equality for everyone, no matter where they live
:44:02. > :44:04.
:44:04. > :44:06.in the UK. This is to the SNP and it's in terms of education and an
:44:06. > :44:12.independent Scotland. Showerly the SNP can be accused of using the sort
:44:12. > :44:18.of tactics that now 16 and 17-year-olds are allowed to vote,
:44:18. > :44:22.it's the exact point the SNP have decided to introduce the new higher
:44:22. > :44:25.literature and English. Surely this is tactical by the SNP and therefore
:44:25. > :44:28.just like providing nationalism to 16 and 17-year-olds to hope to trick
:44:28. > :44:38.us into voting, rather than presenting a case as to why
:44:38. > :44:40.independence is actually good? It would be tremendously patronising
:44:41. > :44:45.for any politician or political party to suggest that because you
:44:45. > :44:52.learn the literature or the history or your own country, you are going
:44:52. > :44:56.to vote in your own way and make up your own mind.
:44:56. > :45:00.APPLAUSE One in 29 members of the Groucho
:45:00. > :45:03.club in London might be dollar millionaires, but I can assure you,
:45:03. > :45:08.there are millions of people in London that are very far from being
:45:08. > :45:14.millionaires. This kind of false dichotomy that Lesley drew is the
:45:14. > :45:20.same as the one Angus drew, that there are masters and servants. I'll
:45:20. > :45:25.tell you where that leads - to the misguided young man in the front row
:45:25. > :45:29.who thinks that English people set about Scottish people in England. If
:45:29. > :45:35.you turned on the television, if you read the major newspapers, if you
:45:35. > :45:40.listened to Parliament, if you look at the captains of business and
:45:40. > :45:45.industry and Trade Unions in England, it's full of Scottish
:45:45. > :45:50.people. Scottish people are never set upon in England. But the fact
:45:50. > :45:55.that that young man, fine young man, thought that, thinks that, is a
:45:55. > :46:03.direct result of this kind of talk that in London they are all dollar
:46:04. > :46:08.millionaires. In London they are all dollar millionaires, masters and we
:46:08. > :46:14.are servants. There are no English tanks in Scotland. Scottish people
:46:14. > :46:19.could have voted to be a separate country at any time in the last 90
:46:19. > :46:26.years of universal sufferage. They decided not to on every occasion. I
:46:26. > :46:30.pray they'll do so again when the reference referendum comes. What we
:46:30. > :46:34.end up doing here, and I also didn't say everyone in London is a dollar
:46:34. > :46:38.millionaire, can we just stop this, some things are like this in life,
:46:38. > :46:42.some things are others. We can get to a stage where we can surely
:46:42. > :46:46.accept there is no guarantees for anything in the future. Could you
:46:46. > :46:51.guarantee what, for example, the UK Government will give us by way of
:46:51. > :46:55.benefits for Bradford, even? I'm astonished, George, because, can I
:46:55. > :46:58.ask you a question, I know you are used to holding fort, but I would
:46:58. > :47:03.like to ask you something. There is mass unemployment throughout this
:47:03. > :47:09.country, mass poverty throughout this country, stop making false
:47:09. > :47:15.divisions, false dichotomies. ask you a question? David, can I ask
:47:15. > :47:18.him a question. It's simply not true and giving this emthe wrong
:47:18. > :47:22.impression, they are not dollar million theirs. Can I ask you a
:47:22. > :47:26.question? Ask a question, by all means. Keep it brief. George, answer
:47:26. > :47:31.briefly. I want to keep moving because we have only got ten minutes
:47:31. > :47:37.left in this programme and we are not sticking with independence.
:47:37. > :47:41.the bedroom tax help people in Bradford? No.Then why... You have
:47:41. > :47:45.had one question. Fine. It could have been turned into David
:47:45. > :47:49.Cameron's poll tax and could have brought him down. That's a bigger
:47:49. > :47:55.betrayal of working class people throughout these islands.
:47:55. > :47:58.All right. Just as a coder, a tail point to
:47:58. > :48:03.this, Scott Mann has a question and I want the panel to say what they
:48:03. > :48:07.think of it having heard what you have all said. Scott Mann? It's been
:48:07. > :48:11.referred to briefly but I would like to point out that 16 and
:48:11. > :48:19.17-year-olds aren't experienced enough to vote in the referendum. Do
:48:19. > :48:23.the panel agree? Do you agree? He thinks 16 and 17s don't have enough
:48:23. > :48:29.experience to vote? Do you agree? think they should vote. They can get
:48:29. > :48:34.married, join the Army, smoke. APPLAUSE
:48:34. > :48:37.You are against this? It's not about age, it's about a cut-off. You don't
:48:37. > :48:42.change the vote for just one poll, which is what is happening at the
:48:42. > :48:45.referendum. We have taken advice, we looked at the majority, they said 18
:48:45. > :48:51.was about right, it's where a lot of countries have it around the world,
:48:51. > :48:56.we are happy with that and don't see an overwhelming need for change.
:48:56. > :49:03.vast number of 18-year-olds is not voting in any form. Should 16 or
:49:03. > :49:07.17-year-olds vote on this? For a one-off basis, doing this once, is
:49:07. > :49:12.silly and cheap. Lesley? 16-year-olds can vote because you
:49:12. > :49:17.can be taxed. If you leave school, you can have a job and you can be
:49:17. > :49:21.taxed. If the old taxation without representation. You should be able
:49:21. > :49:26.to vote when you are going to be paying tax in a world that expects
:49:27. > :49:31.you to be acting as an adult. APPLAUSE
:49:31. > :49:34.Behind the question, would you like a gruen versal franchise for 16 and
:49:34. > :49:38.17-year-olds? Not just the referendum but in every election
:49:38. > :49:43.campaign. I'm delighted that 60% of the people in the poll last week
:49:43. > :49:46.said they would vote. But the important point is not enough just
:49:46. > :49:49.to give young people the vote. We need to make sure politics talks
:49:49. > :49:55.about issues that young people talk about so they come out and use the
:49:55. > :50:00.vote when they have the right to do it. We don't need to ask you, we
:50:00. > :50:08.know the answer. I'm Scottish, why don't I have a vote on the future of
:50:08. > :50:10.the country. You don't live here. It's a big decision.
:50:10. > :50:14.Self-determination is for people who live somewhere to make a decision
:50:14. > :50:20.that. 's why those registered o vote in Scotland will be making that
:50:20. > :50:25.decision. Should 16, 17-year-olds be able to vote? Yes, we proposed it.
:50:26. > :50:29.It shouldn't just be for the referendum but for all elections, we
:50:29. > :50:34.need o to reconnect the young with the democratic process. This is a
:50:34. > :50:39.good way of doing it. The last question, it's not about
:50:39. > :50:42.independence for Scotland. It's from Cameron Gilchrist? I would like to
:50:42. > :50:48.ask, should the UK intervene in Syria?
:50:48. > :50:52.Should the UK intervene in Syria? Do you have a view on this? Yes, fire
:50:52. > :51:02.away and we'll come to the panel next? I think yes, obviously
:51:02. > :51:07.
:51:07. > :51:08.definitely, it should be allowed to intervene in Syria. All the
:51:08. > :51:11.ridiculous things that are happening there, but, you know, the current
:51:11. > :51:13.issue is actually the UN. The UN has this thing called the UN Security
:51:14. > :51:16.Council where there are five permanent seats and they are allowed
:51:16. > :51:19.to veto which means that you can stop, it's China, Russia, France,
:51:19. > :51:23.USA and Britain, and then you have like other countries, so that's like
:51:23. > :51:27.say, and if you can veto, that means no matter what, if nine out of ten
:51:27. > :51:37.voted yes, it just doesn't happen. But go to the point, you would like
:51:37. > :51:42.to see the UK intervening now? Almost 100,000 people killed since
:51:42. > :51:46.the uprising began. You have got 1. 6 million refugees, half of whom are
:51:46. > :51:50.children and 4. 6 million people in need of urgent humanitarian
:51:50. > :51:54.assistance. This is time for urgent national response, not to get
:51:54. > :51:57.weapons to people to they can kill each other, but to get a peaceful
:51:57. > :52:03.resolution and get people round the table and have a diplomatic
:52:03. > :52:07.solution. Let's be clear and learn the lessons from history. The rebels
:52:07. > :52:11.may have the negative effect of escalating the violence, prolonging
:52:11. > :52:16.Civil War and having a Cold War biproxy between the UK and others
:52:17. > :52:21.and Russia. That's not a good thing. Let's learn lessons from Iraq and
:52:21. > :52:29.Afghanistan and let's have a solution that brings a meaningful
:52:29. > :52:32.dialogue and supports peace, not violence. Violence solves nothing.
:52:32. > :52:35.APPLAUSE Nigel Farage? Go into war and
:52:35. > :52:39.intervening in war is the biggest decision a Government can make. Yet
:52:39. > :52:43.from the time of Blair onwards, we seem to, with glee, go to war or
:52:43. > :52:47.intervene in wars, without ever thinking through who is it we are
:52:47. > :52:52.actually supporting, what is the long-term consequence of our action
:52:52. > :52:57.going to be? It's perfectly clear that within the rebel groups in
:52:57. > :53:02.Syria, there is some very strong linkage with Al-Qaeda. We could load
:53:02. > :53:05.these guys up with guns and rockets that one day might actually be used
:53:05. > :53:10.against British soldiers. We don't know what we are doing, our history
:53:10. > :53:14.of intervening in wars in the Middle East over the course of the last
:53:14. > :53:18.decade shows we have not made anything better without a clear
:53:18. > :53:27.objective, without understanding who the rebels are. We shouldn't even
:53:27. > :53:30.consider getting involved in my opinion.
:53:30. > :53:34.APPLAUSE Ruth? There are two priorities, to
:53:34. > :53:40.deal with the people being affected by this, the families of the 93,000
:53:40. > :53:43.dead, the 1. 5 million refugees, that will rise to 3. 5 million
:53:44. > :53:47.people, that's more than the entire population of Wales and the
:53:47. > :53:51.Government's put aid in to help those directly affected. The second
:53:51. > :53:55.priority is to find some way of a negotiated settlement, a peace
:53:55. > :54:00.transition Government. What does that mean to you, to intervene?
:54:00. > :54:05.have to get Assad around the table at the conference being planned.
:54:05. > :54:12.He's waiting for the opposition to arrive. He's already at the table.
:54:12. > :54:15.George, far be it for me to see you stand up and defend another dictator
:54:15. > :54:22.in that part of the world, but... APPLAUSE
:54:22. > :54:26.The idea that Assad is coming to that table, He's already there.To
:54:26. > :54:31.form a transition Government and to take himself out of the government
:54:31. > :54:36.is an absolute nonsense. This brief that you have been given from
:54:36. > :54:41.William Hague's Foreign Office just won't do. The Syrian regime has been
:54:41. > :54:47.at the negotiating table from the beginning, following the Kofi Annan
:54:47. > :54:51.plan. The UN Special Envoy had exactly the democratic transition
:54:51. > :54:56.that you are talking about. It's the fact that you are already
:54:57. > :55:03.intervening, giving guns and money to Al-Qaeda who cut people's chests
:55:03. > :55:08.open and eat their hearts on video and post it on YouTube. If that
:55:08. > :55:14.murderer in Woolwich had gone to Damascus instead, William Hague
:55:14. > :55:18.would have given him money because we are backing these kind of
:55:18. > :55:28.extremist Al-Qaeda maniacs in Syria. You are already intervening. The
:55:28. > :55:32.intervention we need is to force the Syrian opposition to go under US and
:55:32. > :55:36.Russian chairmanship to Geneva and make them sit around the table until
:55:36. > :55:45.they've got an agreement that will be a political transition to
:55:45. > :55:49.democracy. How's that for you? ! We are being exhorted quite rightly
:55:49. > :55:52.to learn the lessons from history and it's not that long ago that we
:55:52. > :55:54.armed the Taliban because we thought it was a tremendously good thing
:55:54. > :55:57.that they should fight the Soviet Union.
:55:57. > :56:01.APPLAUSE Them a number of decades later,
:56:01. > :56:06.those very same people are killing service people from the UK and
:56:06. > :56:10.elsewhere. We haven't learned the lesson of history in Afghanistan and
:56:10. > :56:14.I fear we are not going to learn the lesson of history in relation to
:56:14. > :56:19.Syria. Should we intervene? We should not do that by arming one
:56:19. > :56:23.side. Do we actual actually thawns Russia is arming the Assad regime to
:56:23. > :56:27.the teeth? Do we think that selling arms to one side of the conflict
:56:27. > :56:32.which will then be answered by the Russians providing more weapons opt
:56:32. > :56:36.other side will bring peace? That is the road to disaster. The young man
:56:36. > :56:39.brought up the United Nations but it's hardly even been reported so
:56:39. > :56:43.far, the United Nations is finding it unable to provide peacekeepers to
:56:43. > :56:48.the border between Israel and Syria. Danger is not just the nearly
:56:48. > :56:52.100,000 people who've died in Syria, it's the potential for a confluct
:56:52. > :56:59.across that region you and we should not be helping a disaster like that
:56:59. > :57:05.-- conflict. I think there is a lot of agreement
:57:05. > :57:09.here. If you remember the pictures that have been coming in, it's the
:57:09. > :57:13.sense of impotence you have when you watch children and they've been the
:57:13. > :57:16.biggest casualties, the report out today saying 93,000 people have been
:57:16. > :57:23.killed disproportionately children have died in Syria. Now, watching
:57:23. > :57:28.that, as we have done, without feeling any way that we can manage
:57:28. > :57:31.to effect some fairness and relief for those people or encourage any
:57:31. > :57:35.kind of hope that there would be a resolution there, has been a
:57:35. > :57:41.horrible thing to sit through to not be able to effect this. But now we
:57:41. > :57:45.are at a stage where some of the rebel groups are a dangerous group,
:57:45. > :57:50.set of groups, to arm. So I think we have to get to a stage, and I sigh
:57:50. > :57:56.there's been a bit of backtracking now from the Conservatives, we have
:57:56. > :57:59.to get to a stage with we get some peace talks on the go. That might
:57:59. > :58:05.sound like Pius hopes, but despite what we have seen, it's the best
:58:05. > :58:08.hope and we have to go for it. people with hair hands up and I
:58:08. > :58:12.can't call on any of you. Very sorry. Thank you for the part you
:58:12. > :58:15.have played so far, time's up. I can't do anything about that. I
:58:15. > :58:19.would like to go on longer but I can't. Next week, when Question Time
:58:19. > :58:23.is going to be in London, and we have the Mayor of London, Boris
:58:23. > :58:28.Johnson, on the panel, the comedian Russell Brand, you are welcome to
:58:28. > :58:32.come! The Daily Mail columnist Melanie
:58:32. > :58:35.Phillips, Tessa Jowell for Labour and Ed Davey for the Liberal
:58:35. > :58:40.Democrats. After that we'll be in Newcastle and if you want to come to
:58:40. > :58:44.London or Newcastle, the rules are the same as they always are, the
:58:44. > :58:48.address is on the screen or you can call us. If you are listening on
:58:48. > :58:52.Five Live, you can call in and continue the debate now on Question
:58:52. > :58:56.Time Extra Time. I hope you can do that. Meantime from here, just to