:00:00. > :00:18.Tonight, we are in Basingstoke, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:19. > :00:22.Welcome to all of you in our audience, the people who ask
:00:23. > :00:25.questions, to our panel, who do not know what they are until they hear
:00:26. > :00:31.them from your lips. Conservative Immigration Minister Mark Harper,
:00:32. > :00:36.Labour's new Education Secretary, Tristram Hunt, Diane James from
:00:37. > :00:41.UKIP, who got their best ever parliamentary result in the East the
:00:42. > :00:44.by-election, Daily Telegraph political commentator Peter Oborne
:00:45. > :00:48.and playwright Bonnie Greer, who wrote an opera about Question Time
:00:49. > :00:59.last time she was here alongside Nick Griffin, so watch out.
:01:00. > :01:07.We will take our first question from Scarlett Russell. Is the government
:01:08. > :01:14.too weak to stand up to the energy companies? We have had British Gas
:01:15. > :01:22.announcing over a 9% increase in prices today. Peter Oborne. I think
:01:23. > :01:25.we know what we are going to get from the panel tonight. We will be
:01:26. > :01:30.told the government should act, that there is a cartel in the energy
:01:31. > :01:36.companies, that there is some sort of illicit skulduggery going on and
:01:37. > :01:40.somebody has to keep prices down. This is a return to the illiterate
:01:41. > :01:45.financial, economic arguments of the political class that we used to get
:01:46. > :01:52.in the 1970s and 1980s. I know they are going to say it. All of them?
:01:53. > :01:56.With luck we might get some sense from Mr Harper but a lot -- apart
:01:57. > :02:02.from that we will get absolute drivel from the politicians on the
:02:03. > :02:08.panel. We might as well go home! We have chosen, we have a capitalist
:02:09. > :02:13.system in this country. It depends on supply and demand. And the reason
:02:14. > :02:19.energy prices are going up business thing to do, as far as I can see,
:02:20. > :02:23.unless somebody can prove it, with the greed of the energy companies.
:02:24. > :02:28.It is to do with movements in global energy prices, which we are stuck
:02:29. > :02:32.with. What to do about it? The Labour leader has very wisely and
:02:33. > :02:36.rightly raised the issue. It is something which affects people in
:02:37. > :02:40.their pocket. But what you cannot do is hold down prices. That is
:02:41. > :02:46.interference with the capitalist system. It will not work. It is the
:02:47. > :02:52.state taking over. So why did you call him brave? I thought he spoke
:02:53. > :02:56.bravely about socialism. I quite admired that, that is a role for
:02:57. > :03:00.politicians. What I think we need to do is to look at the structural
:03:01. > :03:03.problems we have. If we really want to deal with high energy prices in
:03:04. > :03:08.this country there is only one solution. That is getting more
:03:09. > :03:16.supply, and that is fracking on a massive scale throughout Britain.
:03:17. > :03:22.Tristram Hunt, you have had your card marked, so you had better have
:03:23. > :03:26.a go. I do not think the capitalist system is working at the moment in
:03:27. > :03:29.the interests of consumers. The market is not working, not
:03:30. > :03:35.delivering for people. Week after week we will see the big six cartel
:03:36. > :03:39.companies racking up the prices. For capitalism to really work, you have
:03:40. > :03:43.to interfere. The thing about capitalism is that it consolidates
:03:44. > :03:47.power and wealth. If you want it to work for the majority, you need a
:03:48. > :03:51.hand on the tiller, which is why we have competition law and regulation
:03:52. > :03:54.law. What we are saying in the Labour Party is that we want to
:03:55. > :03:58.break up the control the big six have, which is racking up energy
:03:59. > :04:03.prices for families. It is going to get really bad over the course of
:04:04. > :04:07.this winter. We are saying we will introduce a price freeze. Ed
:04:08. > :04:11.Miliband wants to make sure, during the price freeze, we reform the
:04:12. > :04:17.regulatory market, reform the system so that we can get prices down for
:04:18. > :04:21.consumers. Just as in the past we put a tax on utility companies when
:04:22. > :04:26.they overcharged, and just as the Conservative Party in the early
:04:27. > :04:29.1980s put a tax on North Sea oil because of excessive profits there,
:04:30. > :04:32.these are the moments when politicians interfere in the market
:04:33. > :04:37.for the good of the public. We had all of this stuff about the 1970s
:04:38. > :04:41.and the rest of it, but I think Ed Miliband is more in line with Adam
:04:42. > :04:45.Smith, who believed that you need to control the market and manage the
:04:46. > :04:51.market to deliver good results the consumers and a market working
:04:52. > :04:57.properly. -- good results for consumers. Mark Harper. What you
:04:58. > :05:02.need in the market is more competition. We want more entrants
:05:03. > :05:05.into the market. What Tristram says would be more compelling if when
:05:06. > :05:12.Labour were in power we had not started with 14 energy companies and
:05:13. > :05:15.ended with six. How do you get more? First, investment in the industry.
:05:16. > :05:19.The Chancellor has been overseas and we will have more investment. We had
:05:20. > :05:24.to diversify away from reliance on fossil fuels, and we need more
:05:25. > :05:30.companies. How do you get them into gas, oil and electricity? We have
:05:31. > :05:32.two new companies. We want more competition, and we should encourage
:05:33. > :05:36.consumers to switch from companies when they put up prices. We have
:05:37. > :05:40.seen a price rise today and everybody who is not happy with it
:05:41. > :05:43.should switch. Do you really believe other companies will keep tariffs
:05:44. > :05:49.low once they have sucked in the people who switch? I was looking at
:05:50. > :05:51.available tariffs. There are some fixed rates available which if you
:05:52. > :05:55.switch into them you will not be hit. I think people should switch
:05:56. > :06:01.from companies that put up prices. What about more of this green stuff
:06:02. > :06:06.which costs over 11% on bills? Do you want to cross some of this off?
:06:07. > :06:11.We need to move away from dependence on imported gas. We need a mix of
:06:12. > :06:15.energy supplies, more nuclear, renewable energy, some gas and some
:06:16. > :06:18.coal. Being completely dependent on imported energy means we are very
:06:19. > :06:23.dependent on the world global gas price. Ed Miliband admitted that if
:06:24. > :06:25.global gas prices go up he would not be able to deliver his price freeze,
:06:26. > :06:31.which is why the Prime Minister called it a con. But the second
:06:32. > :06:36.biggest buyer of gas in the UK is Deutsche Bank. I do not know how
:06:37. > :06:40.much gas that users, but I imagine it is very little, so what you have
:06:41. > :06:44.is a market where they are racking up prices. I represent a part of the
:06:45. > :06:47.country which uses gas great deal for kilns, potteries in
:06:48. > :06:52.Stoke-on-Trent, and our businesses being absolutely hammered by not
:06:53. > :06:56.being able to get competitive gas rates because the government is not
:06:57. > :07:04.investing in gas storage. Let's hear from the audience. Is it fair to say
:07:05. > :07:09.that privatisation of the energy companies has not worked and the
:07:10. > :07:17.only way to bring down prices is to renationalise? Is that your view? I
:07:18. > :07:20.wonder how many of the chief executive officers of the big fuel
:07:21. > :07:30.companies worry about paying their fuel bills when they come through
:07:31. > :07:34.the door. The man in the blue shirt. Peter Oborne was probably right.
:07:35. > :07:39.When the Labour Party was last in, they allowed the producers to merge
:07:40. > :07:46.with the distributors, which has distorted the market. They installed
:07:47. > :07:50.a whole set of green energy policies which are taking an ever-increasing
:07:51. > :07:56.proportion of the bills. And a lot of the investment in infrastructure
:07:57. > :08:01.used to tie in windmills and other energy sources. But do you think the
:08:02. > :08:06.government can stand up to energy companies? I think they should get
:08:07. > :08:09.out of the way of energy companies and stop putting up taxes and
:08:10. > :08:18.forcing these inefficient energy sources. Thank you for all of your
:08:19. > :08:21.comments, ladies and gentlemen. I am listening to this argument and
:08:22. > :08:24.thinking I have Ed Miliband and David Cameron completely out of
:08:25. > :08:30.touch with what is going on out there. You have one political party
:08:31. > :08:35.leader saying fix prices. You can do that. That has a ready been found.
:08:36. > :08:38.There are fixed rates out there. And you have another suggesting there is
:08:39. > :08:42.suddenly going to be this magical new company which will be immune to
:08:43. > :08:48.what is happening with the market and is suddenly going to make price
:08:49. > :08:51.of energy massively cheaper. This blame culture worries me. We have
:08:52. > :08:56.had bashed the bankers. We are bashing the next sector in the
:08:57. > :09:01.economy. When it comes down to it, if we took out this huge element of
:09:02. > :09:04.the EU obligations in terms of energy, the reliance that we have
:09:05. > :09:09.now got on imported gas to make up for the fact that we have closed so
:09:10. > :09:13.many coal-fired power stations, we have taken away in indigenous power
:09:14. > :09:17.source that we had here, and we are now saying we are going to go for
:09:18. > :09:21.fracking, which I agree with Peter, I would do it because it is UKIP
:09:22. > :09:24.Wallasey. But that will take at least ten years before it comes on
:09:25. > :09:29.stream to such an extent that will make up for the deficit that we are
:09:30. > :09:36.in. So it is the fault of the EU, according to you, not surprisingly.
:09:37. > :09:40.Everything is, according to UKIP. You might well think so, Mark, but
:09:41. > :09:43.when it comes down to it, we have an emphasis on the renewables sector
:09:44. > :09:48.which is going to suddenly, like a white charger, coming to the energy
:09:49. > :09:54.market. The gentleman made the point, in terms of inefficient wind
:09:55. > :09:59.turbines, for instance. What about home improvements, which cost nearly
:10:00. > :10:04.half the bill? 12 households have taken up the green deal. 12
:10:05. > :10:15.households! What a waste of money, everybody. More people with their
:10:16. > :10:19.hands up. We have seen this increase in energy prices coming in, and it
:10:20. > :10:23.is the start of more to come. We have also seen an increase in the
:10:24. > :10:27.use of food banks. Does this mean we are now going to see winter coats,
:10:28. > :10:35.blankets, candles, as well as food at the food banks? Don't dwell on
:10:36. > :10:40.the food banks because we might come to that later? I do not have a
:10:41. > :10:44.strong, long, conference of answer about fracking and all of this. I am
:10:45. > :10:48.opposed to fracking but I do not have a long answer about it. The
:10:49. > :10:52.original question is, is this government too weak to face up to
:10:53. > :10:57.the energy companies? No, it is not weakness, it is a matter of Trier at
:10:58. > :11:03.ease. This government is interested in Britain plc. It wants to shrink
:11:04. > :11:08.the state and make us stand up and be grown-ups and handle it, while
:11:09. > :11:12.they reshape the country. So I don't think it is a matter of that. I
:11:13. > :11:16.think it is frankly a matter to see how long we can take it, and if we
:11:17. > :11:21.can take it. So I do not think we will see them stand up to these
:11:22. > :11:23.companies, because they do not attack the financial sector. They
:11:24. > :11:32.are much more interested in doing it to us. Hold on a second. See how
:11:33. > :11:36.long we can take what? Well, see how long, as this lady was saying, see
:11:37. > :11:43.how long we can be cold, to be honest with you. The idea and the
:11:44. > :11:47.reality is that this government is more interested in big business, in
:11:48. > :11:52.helping business, in appearing to be the friend of business, and not
:11:53. > :12:00.necessarily on the side of the consumer or the population. The
:12:01. > :12:03.problem with capitalism in this instance is that there is no
:12:04. > :12:10.competition, so who do you switch to? What is the government's answer?
:12:11. > :12:14.We want more competition in the market. So we need to do things to
:12:15. > :12:18.make it easier. Part of the reason we want people to switch to the
:12:19. > :12:21.lowest tariff, to encourage people to switch, is so that you get more
:12:22. > :12:26.competition, that smaller new entrants will come into the market
:12:27. > :12:30.base. We inherited a market with only the big six. When we left
:12:31. > :12:33.power, there were 14 energy companies to choose from, you have
:12:34. > :12:37.more competition, more options for people to switch to. That is what we
:12:38. > :12:45.need to get back to, so people have real choice. There is a stage in the
:12:46. > :12:49.political cycle at which you cannot keep blaming previous governments.
:12:50. > :12:53.After three and a half years in power not taking any effective
:12:54. > :12:57.action in this round, and now we are seeing the consequences of this. It
:12:58. > :13:00.is part of a pattern of the Hague. When we look at the Prime Minister,
:13:01. > :13:06.he is incapable of standing up against strong. When it comes to the
:13:07. > :13:10.banks, to the Murdoch press, David Cameron is always on the wrong side,
:13:11. > :13:15.and so it is with the energy companies. He is not on the side of
:13:16. > :13:20.consumers, facing price hike is. He is on the side of the big energy
:13:21. > :13:30.companies, and small businesses and consumers are taking the hit for it.
:13:31. > :13:33.I think we live in this illusion that we live in an open and
:13:34. > :13:37.transparent energy market and it is simply not the case. The amount of
:13:38. > :13:43.subsidies, tax breaks and backroom lobbying that happens, and influence
:13:44. > :13:48.on those energy companies. So now we have a discussion about fracking.
:13:49. > :13:51.The only reason we are discussing that is because of lobbyists
:13:52. > :13:56.exerting power. It will not bring down energy prices. It is locking us
:13:57. > :14:01.into a fossil fuel future which we do not need. This is only weeks
:14:02. > :14:05.after the IPCC report saying we need to move away from fossil fuels. This
:14:06. > :14:11.is a path which is going to lead us towards greater fuel poverty. In the
:14:12. > :14:15.winter, people will die. We have this political wrangling about
:14:16. > :14:26.fracking, which has been forced upon us by big companies, and people will
:14:27. > :14:30.die. When you make your attack on the government, how do you account
:14:31. > :14:36.for us having very low fuel prices relative to the rest of Europe? What
:14:37. > :14:41.I know about the prices is that when Ed Miliband was energy Secretary,
:14:42. > :14:46.prices came down by ?100. And since David Cameron has been Prime
:14:47. > :14:51.Minister, they have gone up by ?300. We live in a global market. And
:14:52. > :15:05.everything the Minister said about dying in to much foreign gas is
:15:06. > :15:07.absolutely right. But I do not accept the idea that we have
:15:08. > :15:10.competitive energy rates relative to Europe. You look, for example, at
:15:11. > :15:11.what is happening for German energy rates, particularly in the
:15:12. > :15:14.industrial sector. They have vast hidden subsidies, to go back to the
:15:15. > :15:21.gentleman's point, which allow businesses to compete. The world
:15:22. > :15:26.demand is growing, China, India, a fume or companies. It is a
:15:27. > :15:32.short-term fix. Surely we need to become independent and find a mix of
:15:33. > :15:37.energies. What I was about to say myself. The argument we have been
:15:38. > :15:42.having about more competition or energy prices exploiting us isn't
:15:43. > :15:47.really true. I think that Mr Hunt knows it's not really true. We have
:15:48. > :15:52.to look at the fundamental structural issues. One is much more
:15:53. > :15:59.fracking, nuclear power. We need much more nuclear power, more wind
:16:00. > :16:07.power. There is a problem, can we... The problem is democracy. At local
:16:08. > :16:13.level you have no politician can devie his vouters saying let us have
:16:14. > :16:17.fracking here, they are not going to do it. The same problem with nuclear
:16:18. > :16:22.power. We have to understand that there are certain issues where
:16:23. > :16:28.democracy is an absolute impediment. Instead of listening to winging from
:16:29. > :16:33.left-wing politicians to the cartels that don't exist, let us have
:16:34. > :16:38.long-term thought, please, Mr Hunt. I will tell you exactly.
:16:39. > :16:44.APPLAUSE In Stoke-on-Trent we have huge
:16:45. > :16:49.amounts of coal bed methane and exploit it to the full which is the
:16:50. > :16:54.long-term energy strategy we need. On nuclear power, I don't agree with
:16:55. > :16:56.it, on my constituency we have an existing nuclear power station. When
:16:57. > :17:00.you confront people with some of these choices they can see you need
:17:01. > :17:04.to make more investment. Hopefully, there will be new investment until
:17:05. > :17:09.new nuclear power station there. The Chancellor has made positive
:17:10. > :17:13.announcements today while he is in China about new investment into the
:17:14. > :17:18.energy market so we have more diverse set of energy supplies for
:17:19. > :17:33.the country. Thank you. Join in this debate, Twitter, text, you can
:17:34. > :17:37.follow us at BBCquestiontime. This question from Aaron Dewey, please.
:17:38. > :17:43.Can the UK cope with any more immigration after Christmas? Diane
:17:44. > :17:46.James, UKIP has strong views on immigration? We do indeed. Thank you
:17:47. > :17:52.for your question. I don't believe we can, it's as simple as that. We
:17:53. > :17:55.have no idea, I'm sure everyone will agree, exactly how many people are
:17:56. > :18:02.going to come from the two countries in question. Where the current
:18:03. > :18:07.restrictions on... Them coming into the UK... About r Bulgaria and
:18:08. > :18:11.Romania. There are two million of them in Spain. They have made that
:18:12. > :18:15.move. The likelihood of them coming to the UK is pretty high. We also
:18:16. > :18:21.know that the Government will not admit what sort of forecast they
:18:22. > :18:27.have. We have this latest EU Commissioner report, this whole
:18:28. > :18:31.issue of over 600,000 inactive EU migrants here already. 3% increase
:18:32. > :18:34.in the number that haven't got a job. What that does mean, if we
:18:35. > :18:38.translate that, I think we can translate that, I'm not going to
:18:39. > :18:42.detract from that, there is going to be a pressure when these two
:18:43. > :18:46.countries, their restrictions are lifted those people will come here.
:18:47. > :18:51.They are going to come here. It's a very, very nice deal coming to the
:18:52. > :18:55.UK, in terms of access to benefits. I'm sure Mark will try and come back
:18:56. > :18:58.on me and say, we have this under control, the coalition, the
:18:59. > :19:02.Conservatives haven't got it under control. What would you have a
:19:03. > :19:06.government do that within the law of the EU, of which we are members
:19:07. > :19:10.until you kip gets its way? I wouldn't mess about with this
:19:11. > :19:15.discussion of repatriation of powers it would be a straight-forward, no,
:19:16. > :19:24.they cannot come in. The way to achieve that is out of the EU. It's
:19:25. > :19:25.as simple as that. APPLAUSE
:19:26. > :19:28.Mark Harper? It's worth getting facts out there. It's worth
:19:29. > :19:35.reminding people of the immigration into the country, only half of it is
:19:36. > :19:40.from outside of the EU. A third of immigration is from the EU. When
:19:41. > :19:44.Labour was in power and let European immigration get out of control, it
:19:45. > :19:48.was the case that twice as much immigration was outside the EU. The
:19:49. > :19:52.idea it's about the EU and there is nothing we can do, which is UKIP's
:19:53. > :19:57.contention, is nonsense. The Government has reduced net migration
:19:58. > :20:02.by a third. Rubbish. That is absolutely true. You can't count
:20:03. > :20:06.them in, you can't count them out. They are robust figures. It's down
:20:07. > :20:09.by a third. We have more skilled workers coming to Britain. We have
:20:10. > :20:12.more students coming to Britain. The most important thing is, unlike when
:20:13. > :20:17.Labour was in power, the growth in employment we have seen in Britain.
:20:18. > :20:20.The million more people in employment, the bulk of that benefit
:20:21. > :20:26.has gone to British people, which is not the case when Labour was in
:20:27. > :20:33.power. What about after Christmas? We have been quite... A European
:20:34. > :20:39.question it's Bulgaria and Romania? We haven't secret forecasts. There
:20:40. > :20:43.are eight European countries who will remove them at the end of the
:20:44. > :20:47.year. It's not like 2004 when we were the only country that let
:20:48. > :20:50.people come to Britain when the Eastern Europeans joined, eight
:20:51. > :20:55.other European countries, clearly, some people will come here. We have
:20:56. > :20:59.to see what happens. They can go to eight other European countries. You
:21:00. > :21:04.have not made a forecast? We haven't. Why not? Our experts said
:21:05. > :21:09.trying to make a forecast when you have eight other countries... You
:21:10. > :21:12.survey public opinion in this country every five minutes of the
:21:13. > :21:17.day. Both parties. You alter your policies to fit every little tiny
:21:18. > :21:23.change. You are saying you can't go to Bulgaria and Romania to ask them
:21:24. > :21:26.what their plans are? Most of the people that Nigel talked to said
:21:27. > :21:31.they didn't want to come to Britain at all, thank you very much. For the
:21:32. > :21:37.Chinese to come? If they are coming to study and invest and spend money
:21:38. > :21:43.in our shops. To visit? We have 200,000 coming to visit Britain. We
:21:44. > :21:52.are talking about immigration, not Chinese visitors. Bonnie Greer.
:21:53. > :21:56.Listen, I'm not a politician, I will not throw figures around at you. I'm
:21:57. > :22:00.sick and tired of this conversation. I'm sick and tired every year and
:22:01. > :22:05.every government talking about immigration. What we don't want to
:22:06. > :22:10.have. I think that what this government has done, I think what
:22:11. > :22:16.this government has done is allowed a vigorous, necessary discussion in
:22:17. > :22:24.a thriving democracy to descend in a xenophobia. It is beneath the
:22:25. > :22:29.British people to do that. It is beneath this democracy. Let's have a
:22:30. > :22:35.sane, reasonable discussion. We are not going to have on January 1st
:22:36. > :22:40.Bulgarians and Romanians coming over with their wagons and their horses
:22:41. > :22:44.and their children and thieves and robbers. It's not going to happen.
:22:45. > :22:48.We have to be very, very careful. We have to be very careful in talking
:22:49. > :22:54.about this and make sure that we don't appear to be a replica of the
:22:55. > :22:58.National Front in France. It's very, very important. Don't go to
:22:59. > :23:10.xenophobia. Calm down and let's talk about this reasonably. You, sir. I'm
:23:11. > :23:14.a district councillor in the neighbouring borough, and one of our
:23:15. > :23:18.biggest issues is the development of all the houses they have to put in.
:23:19. > :23:22.We had our local plan thrown away by the Government because they are
:23:23. > :23:27.saying we fact Order in a zero net migration number. They have said
:23:28. > :23:34.absolutely not. That's not the case. You have to develop more houses. We
:23:35. > :23:39.are talking about 3,500 houses over the next 15 years. The Government
:23:40. > :23:44.wants us to double that. Where will we put 7,000 new houses? How are we
:23:45. > :23:48.going to have the bandwidth in our schools and hospitals and so on so
:23:49. > :23:56.forth to accommodate all of those people? Can you pick up his exact
:23:57. > :24:01.point? I don't know what the Government is proposing for you as
:24:02. > :24:08.an elected Cllr in terms of how you will manage the migration --
:24:09. > :24:11.councillor. This Government is not learning the lessons of our time
:24:12. > :24:16.when the Labour Party was in government. We didn't have the
:24:17. > :24:21.correct numbers for the number of EU nationals coming in to work. The
:24:22. > :24:26.figures we were given by civil servants were wildly off. We didn't
:24:27. > :24:31.drill down into the data effectively, as a result - Why not?
:24:32. > :24:36.We believed the officials figures we were given they proved wildly off.
:24:37. > :24:42.I'm hoping Mark Harper is drilling into this fracking-like vigour in
:24:43. > :24:49.terms of some of these statistics. Hang on. What goodwill it do if he
:24:50. > :24:53.finds out that the gentleman from Harte is correct he has to build
:24:54. > :24:57.7,000 instead of 3 ,500 homes? You have to plan. Let us not under
:24:58. > :25:00.estimate the importance of free movement of labour across the
:25:01. > :25:04.European Union. Your children will want to work in France or Spain. You
:25:05. > :25:08.might want to retire in France or Spain. You might have business
:25:09. > :25:13.connections in Italy. The free movement of labour is an important
:25:14. > :25:18.part of the European Union and we have grown in prosperity as a result
:25:19. > :25:21.of it. Yes, we have to manage the transition as well, let us not lose
:25:22. > :25:27.sight of the importance of where we are in the European Union in this. I
:25:28. > :25:31.agree with Mr Hunt that free movement of Labour is a wonderful
:25:32. > :25:35.thing -- labour. The problem with the European Union is it has gone
:25:36. > :25:40.forward too fast. As it went much too fast towards the euro which is
:25:41. > :25:45.causing utter destruction in southern Europe. It is moving too
:25:46. > :25:50.fast on the freedom of labour. Here is one fact which is central to this
:25:51. > :25:56.whole argument. That issing, the average wage in Bulgaria and Romania
:25:57. > :26:02.is approximately half the minimum wage in Britain. So, this is why,
:26:03. > :26:08.last time when Labour got it wrong, we had Polish professors coming
:26:09. > :26:15.along to be cleaners in Britain. It does have, I'm afraid, what the
:26:16. > :26:19.councillor described it beautifully, a massive effect on public services,
:26:20. > :26:26.schools, housing, all of these things, I reckon that we... Europe
:26:27. > :26:31.itself needs to admit it has made a frightful nonsense. It is going to
:26:32. > :26:35.be the same problem in Germany and in France. I think it's time to look
:26:36. > :26:41.again. I think you have time to look again and say to Bulgaria and
:26:42. > :26:46.Romania, it's not a good idea at the moment to go-ahead with this.
:26:47. > :26:50.Actually, for the sake of Europe, and for the sake of Bulgaria and
:26:51. > :26:57.Romania which doesn't want to lose their best people, let us just put
:26:58. > :27:01.it on hold for a few years. APPLAUSE
:27:02. > :27:06.You at the back. The Tory elite in this area have got it totally wrong.
:27:07. > :27:11.In my town we are close to waiting 21 days for a doctor's appointment.
:27:12. > :27:16.In my county, there are about to pull down four care homes. Those
:27:17. > :27:21.care homes are the family silver. They love, they look after, they
:27:22. > :27:26.manage our elderly well. We are going to pull them down and put out
:27:27. > :27:30.to privatisation. We are so out of touch in this area it's
:27:31. > :27:34.unbelievable. Let him finish the point. They have completely lost
:27:35. > :27:41.control of what is happening at a local level. The cuts, the cuts have
:27:42. > :27:45.gone far too far. It's time to start rebuilding the fabric of our society
:27:46. > :27:56.Raith rather than the Tory way of destroying it. Absolutely. How is
:27:57. > :28:01.that relevant to immigration from Bulgaria and Romania? Quite simple,
:28:02. > :28:06.we cannot take any more. Our county cannot absorb any more. We are full.
:28:07. > :28:13.We are are going to close the business pretty soon. First of all,
:28:14. > :28:16.we recognise some of the pressures on public services, housing the
:28:17. > :28:21.gentleman made on immigration. Which is why we reduced it by a third we
:28:22. > :28:25.will continue to reduce it from the uncontrolled levels we had under
:28:26. > :28:28.Labour. Which immigration? Net immigration to the country. Most
:28:29. > :28:31.immigration is from outis side the European Union. They are the people
:28:32. > :28:36.you send vans around saying - go home if you are illegal? I don't see
:28:37. > :28:40.in any problem with saying people who don't have a right to be in the
:28:41. > :28:48.United Kingdom they shouldn't be any more. That gentleman's point at the
:28:49. > :28:53.back... You still support that? Well, it was a pilot. We are
:28:54. > :28:58.assessing the results at the moment. If the pilot shows that we were
:28:59. > :29:03.successful in persuading people... How many? How many? I will not give
:29:04. > :29:08.a running commentary. We will publish the results when we have
:29:09. > :29:11.done the evaluation. If it's successful we will look at running
:29:12. > :29:15.it out. If it's not successful we won't. I want people who have no
:29:16. > :29:21.right to be here should leave the country. The immigration bill which
:29:22. > :29:24.we published, which we debate next week, is about welcoming people to
:29:25. > :29:30.the country who contribute and deterring those that don't. Holding
:29:31. > :29:34.those views, you are not alarmed at the open door policy on both
:29:35. > :29:41.Bulgaria and Romania? We don't have an open door policy. Who is not
:29:42. > :29:47.allowed in? We have tightened up... On January 1st? We tightened up the
:29:48. > :29:53.access to benefits. We tightened up access to services and social
:29:54. > :29:56.housing. Local councils can prioritise access... You make it
:29:57. > :30:04.undesirable to come here? If they come to work, pay taxes and make a
:30:05. > :30:10.contribution I have no problem with that. Abuse of free movement is not
:30:11. > :30:12.OK. This is one of the examples of why we don't trust politics or
:30:13. > :30:26.politicians any more. I am not saying it to get applause
:30:27. > :30:31.or anything. I am sitting here listening to Mark and Tristram, and
:30:32. > :30:34.I am sure they are nice guys. But a sickly, Labour did not get the
:30:35. > :30:40.numbers right. What are they hired for if they don't get the numbers
:30:41. > :30:46.right? Mark is saying something about doing a pilot with a white
:30:47. > :30:50.van. This is not what we expect. We expect our politicians to get it
:30:51. > :30:55.right, to prepare us for whatever is going to happen, and not to start
:30:56. > :31:01.some kind of dog whistle xenophobic rant about people coming in and out
:31:02. > :31:06.of the country. At the end of the day, we pay for it, no matter what
:31:07. > :31:17.the deal is. It is not a xenophobic rant. Not from you. But it descends
:31:18. > :31:22.to that level. Why are you accusing these two men of a xenophobic rant?
:31:23. > :31:34.I did not say they are making a xenophobic rant. Bonnie is right.
:31:35. > :31:38.She is not accusing those men of being xenophobic. She is saying
:31:39. > :31:47.there is an air of xenophobia. She is not pointing the finger. Thank
:31:48. > :31:51.you. The discussion has nothing to do with xenophobia. It is about jobs
:31:52. > :31:56.and services. We have large amounts of youth unemployment in this
:31:57. > :32:06.country. What effect will more immigration have on that?
:32:07. > :32:10.I agree that there is a nasty xenophobic wing of this argument.
:32:11. > :32:14.Those go home bands are just horrible. But we have a housing
:32:15. > :32:18.crisis. Thousands of people live in bed-and-breakfast with their
:32:19. > :32:24.families. Thousands of the plant going to come to this country, and
:32:25. > :32:28.where are they going to stay? It is easy to say it is xenophobic, which
:32:29. > :32:32.a horrible amount of it is, but behind that is a logistical
:32:33. > :32:48.argument. I do not disagree with that. I feel for our young people.
:32:49. > :32:51.Despite what Mark would like to convince us, the Conservatives and
:32:52. > :33:02.the coalition are not controlling immigration. I am a fellow borough
:33:03. > :33:04.councillor by the way, so I sympathise with you completely. The
:33:05. > :33:06.comment has been made that even with the current national housing
:33:07. > :33:09.targets, we would have to build one new home every seven minutes, and if
:33:10. > :33:13.we do not control immigration, when we get to the end of the next 15
:33:14. > :33:18.year programme the Coalition Government has introduced, we will
:33:19. > :33:23.have to embark on another huge round of house-building. We have to start
:33:24. > :33:27.saying enough is enough at some stage, and bring control back into
:33:28. > :33:32.this country, as to where the infrastructure goes, where the
:33:33. > :33:35.housing goes, where it is allocated. That is not happening with Mark and
:33:36. > :33:40.his team in government at the moment. I do not know whether you
:33:41. > :33:44.have seen the same issues and papers that have come out. Allocating the
:33:45. > :33:54.housing as it is, you can drive a coach and horses through it. It is
:33:55. > :34:00.an absolute nonsense. Peter has highlighted the concerns with
:34:01. > :34:06.immigration from the New Year. He has highlighted those quite
:34:07. > :34:15.correctly. Whereas one he has talked about the wagon train scenario --
:34:16. > :34:18.Bonnie Greer. I think it will be worse than the wagon train scenario
:34:19. > :34:21.and I have a major concern about the social structure in this country and
:34:22. > :34:26.what it will do to our English society. Having seen it happen
:34:27. > :34:32.throughout Europe in Austria, in Switzerland, with people coming in
:34:33. > :34:35.from the two countries mentioned and causing major issues there, and I
:34:36. > :34:44.think it's going to be ten times worse over here. I am going to move
:34:45. > :34:50.on. A question from Philippa Messenger. Should I still believe my
:34:51. > :34:58.mother's advice that you can always trust a police officer? This is in
:34:59. > :35:02.the light, of course, of what Deborah Glass, the deputy chair of
:35:03. > :35:05.the Independent Police Complaints Commission said in this whole
:35:06. > :35:09.business over what Andrew Mitchell did or did not say at the gates of
:35:10. > :35:12.Downing Street. I do not want to go to the story because I am sure you
:35:13. > :35:16.know it, but three police officers went to see him to see if they could
:35:17. > :35:20.sort the thing out and then gave a description of what he had said, but
:35:21. > :35:24.he had recorded it and that police officers gave a different view, and
:35:25. > :35:28.the Independent Police Commissioner said that in her opinion the
:35:29. > :35:31.surrounding circumstances do give an indication of an issue of honesty
:35:32. > :35:36.and integrity and discreditable conduct, not merely naive or poor
:35:37. > :35:39.professional judgement. There is more to go on this because they have
:35:40. > :35:43.not decided whether to prosecute other people involved. But let's
:35:44. > :35:49.deal with this issue and what was said, and not for too long. But
:35:50. > :35:55.should Philippa Messenger trust a police officer? Tristram Hunt? It is
:35:56. > :35:59.desperately depressing, this week's events. We have had two is
:36:00. > :36:03.significant events this week in terms of police trustworthiness. We
:36:04. > :36:08.are looking at the Mark Duggan inquest, which led to the riots, and
:36:09. > :36:11.accounts of what happened there, and then this report from the IPCC about
:36:12. > :36:18.what the police officers did or did not say in that meeting. The
:36:19. > :36:23.instinctive, quite rightful, sense is always to trust a police officer.
:36:24. > :36:28.But it does enormous amounts of damage to their integrity, this
:36:29. > :36:33.situation. And the real issue is that if they could do this to a
:36:34. > :36:39.cabinet minister, could they do this to a young lad from Bradford,
:36:40. > :36:43.Brixton? If they are able to work together like this, arguably to
:36:44. > :36:51.undermine a democratically elected political representative, what hope
:36:52. > :36:55.does a young boy or girl have in the criminal justice system? That is the
:36:56. > :37:09.real fear. So I feel a lot of angst about it. Today, I wrote a letter to
:37:10. > :37:15.Andrew Mitchell, just a personal note of apology, because I believed
:37:16. > :37:19.the police. I believed it was right that he should be removed from the
:37:20. > :37:23.government. And, of course, we now know that the police lied. These
:37:24. > :37:28.three officers lied. And let's bear in mind that they will be no
:37:29. > :37:33.punishment to these officers. They are all going to go into the court.
:37:34. > :37:38.Their power to arrest people, to give evidence against people, these
:37:39. > :37:44.are officers who lied. They are going to expect to be listened to
:37:45. > :37:49.with respect by a jury. And yet the police seem completely relaxed about
:37:50. > :37:53.this. Look, this is not just about Mr Mitchell. Mr Mitchell had
:37:54. > :37:56.powerful friends, influential people who came to his aid and made sure
:37:57. > :38:07.this came out into the open. I absolutely agree with Doctor Hunt,
:38:08. > :38:12.that the real issue is that the same thing is happening on working class
:38:13. > :38:16.estates. Young youths are being framed. For them, that is the end of
:38:17. > :38:20.their life, because they are going to jail. They are being framed and
:38:21. > :38:24.going to jail. But Mr Mitchell, it was a career set back. These youths
:38:25. > :38:29.have a criminal record and will not be employed. I think it is fair to
:38:30. > :38:32.say these officers have made no comment since and the chief
:38:33. > :38:35.constables who decided not to discipline them have asked to go
:38:36. > :38:44.before a parliamentary committee to explain why. There are two stories.
:38:45. > :38:48.And Andrew Mitchell still has not made an official complaint. Let's
:38:49. > :38:54.put this into context. I would like to see a statement from him. To go
:38:55. > :38:58.back to the question very quickly, I think the element of trust has been
:38:59. > :39:03.severely undermined. And the next time, I hope it is not stopped for
:39:04. > :39:07.speeding points or something, but if I am going to be questioned, am I
:39:08. > :39:12.going to get a rightful hearing? But what worries me more than anything
:39:13. > :39:17.is that what was effectively a relatively simple spat that involved
:39:18. > :39:21.rather colourful language, if we look at this, has suddenly developed
:39:22. > :39:26.into something much more serious. And the seriousness of it is, is
:39:27. > :39:32.this the police fighting against the cutbacks and using this as
:39:33. > :39:37.ammunition, or is it just the usual cover-up type scenario? And that is
:39:38. > :39:42.what worries me more than anything. Are we just watching this battle
:39:43. > :39:46.being fought out over something very fundamental? Recognising your
:39:47. > :39:54.question, undermining our trust in the police. The IPCC did say they
:39:55. > :39:56.were running a successful, high profile and teacups media campaign.
:39:57. > :40:06.Do you think Andrew Mitchell should be reinstated? Let me answer
:40:07. > :40:12.Philippa Messenger's question first. Don't forget mine. Generally, the
:40:13. > :40:15.vast majority of police officers behave with honesty and integrity
:40:16. > :40:19.and we often ask them to put their lives on the line. This evening, the
:40:20. > :40:22.Prime Minister and Home Secretary are at the police bravery awards,
:40:23. > :40:27.honouring officers who put themselves in danger. But Tristram
:40:28. > :40:31.is right, this kind of behaviour does cause real damage to the image
:40:32. > :40:35.of the police, which is why I think those chief constables or to deal
:40:36. > :40:40.with it. Listening to what the IPCC have said, I think they ought to
:40:41. > :40:43.have a disciplinary process so they can tease out what happened. If
:40:44. > :40:47.those officers have behaved badly, it needs to be dealt with. That is
:40:48. > :40:51.why we put reforms in place with the College of policing, strengthening
:40:52. > :40:54.the IPCC. We want to change the culture in the police to make it
:40:55. > :40:58.more open and these things less likely. The answer is, yes, you
:40:59. > :41:02.should trust the police but we need to take action to make sure this
:41:03. > :41:06.type of behaviour does not happen. Tristram was right, Andrew Mitchell
:41:07. > :41:09.was a person who looks like he has been wronged but was in a position
:41:10. > :41:13.where he was able to do something about it. The concern for people
:41:14. > :41:17.watching is, for someone without that ability to do something about
:41:18. > :41:20.it, how many other people are going to suffer? That is why we need to
:41:21. > :41:28.take action to improve the integrity of the police force overall. You
:41:29. > :41:33.heard what the Home Secretary said in the House of Commons. You know
:41:34. > :41:39.that David Cameron sacked him. Do you think the Prime Minister should
:41:40. > :41:45.apologise? He did not sack him. He was there one day and gone the next.
:41:46. > :41:48.As Chief Whip, it ended on the confidence of the Parliamentary
:41:49. > :41:52.party and he said he was not able to do his job. I hope the situation is
:41:53. > :41:57.resolved. I cannot comment on the original events because they are
:41:58. > :42:02.subject of a police investigation. You want him back in office? That is
:42:03. > :42:06.a matter for the Prime Minister. It is looking increasingly like he was
:42:07. > :42:10.wronged. I do not know what happened in the original set of
:42:11. > :42:13.circumstances. Clearly, if he is completely cleared, the Prime
:42:14. > :42:18.Minister would be free to ask him back into government. To go back to
:42:19. > :42:20.the question, there are many communities in this country who
:42:21. > :42:26.would never even asked that question in the first place because they do
:42:27. > :42:34.not trust the police. So they have not lost anything, to be honest with
:42:35. > :42:37.you. The second thing, it is interesting to me as the only
:42:38. > :42:43.immigrant on the panel, I think, to say that I come from a country, a
:42:44. > :42:50.part of the country where you do not have police walking around unarmed.
:42:51. > :42:56.Probably in the whole world, British policing is unique. It is called a
:42:57. > :43:02.police service. Therefore, our police do their work in conjunction
:43:03. > :43:09.with the consent of the people. And if they break that trust in any way,
:43:10. > :43:15.they need to be accountable for it. It is as simple as that.
:43:16. > :43:22.If it takes a Conservative whip to actually bring this to the fore and
:43:23. > :43:25.make the Home Secretary asked for an apology or whatever, so be it. And
:43:26. > :43:31.if these police officers have actually done something, or done
:43:32. > :43:40.wrong, they need to go down, and it is as simple as that. Have we any
:43:41. > :43:54.police officers in the audience who want to say anything? I will go to
:43:55. > :44:00.the man on the right. I was wondering if the lady's mother is
:44:01. > :44:04.still alive, and whether she heard the PM programme last night, because
:44:05. > :44:09.there was a retired Deputy Assistant Commissioner from The Met red fires
:44:10. > :44:13.-- advised people to record their encounters with the police. I think
:44:14. > :44:18.it is a sad state of affairs if we have to say that. Philippa
:44:19. > :44:25.Messenger, do you still believe your mother's advice? I liked Bonnie
:44:26. > :44:30.Greer's point about the fact that it is hopefully a small minority that
:44:31. > :44:34.are causing problems. I would like to continue to believe my mother's
:44:35. > :44:39.advice and to follow it, because it is a bit depressing otherwise if I
:44:40. > :44:42.do not. The trouble with a small minority is that you never know who
:44:43. > :44:46.is a member of that minority in advance, do you? Let's go onto
:44:47. > :44:56.another question. One from Bruce Mellstrom, please. Should teachers'
:44:57. > :45:09.pay the performance related? -- should it be performance related? We
:45:10. > :45:12.had strikes in several parts of Britain today, and that is one of
:45:13. > :45:15.the issues. You are the new man on the block on education. Do not tell
:45:16. > :45:17.us everything you know about it, but what on this particular point. I am
:45:18. > :45:21.in favour of performance related pay. We had a great report today
:45:22. > :45:25.from Alan Milburn on social mobility and the chapters on education are
:45:26. > :45:30.totally compelling. And the difference which a good teacher, a
:45:31. > :45:33.great teacher can make to the life chances, particularly of children
:45:34. > :45:41.from deprived communities, is absolutely stunning. Conversely, the
:45:42. > :45:45.difference which are bad teacher can make tickets from low income
:45:46. > :45:50.communities is devastating. So we want to reward excellence in the
:45:51. > :45:54.classroom, but we also want to create new pathways for teachers. At
:45:55. > :45:57.the moment, great teachers get sucked into senior management,
:45:58. > :46:02.become heads, deputy heads, super heads. I think we need a pathway for
:46:03. > :46:07.teachers where we can -- they can excel in the classroom. Where they
:46:08. > :46:10.have a career that means their love of teaching and imparting learning
:46:11. > :46:19.gives a pathway, as a teaching career. So I am in favour of
:46:20. > :46:24.performance related pay. I am in favour of making sure we do not have
:46:25. > :46:27.bad teachers in schools. But what I am really in favour of is continuing
:46:28. > :46:32.professional development of teachers, so we get the kind of best
:46:33. > :46:37.quality teachers in the world. We have brilliant teachers at the
:46:38. > :46:41.moment, but we can do more. It's fantastic that we should have
:46:42. > :46:47.performance related pay. I I absolutely agree with every single
:46:48. > :46:53.word by Dr Hunt. I'm hoping the important thing about him is has
:46:54. > :46:57.been made Education Spokesman. He seems to agree with the wonderful
:46:58. > :47:02.things that Michael Gove is doing. It's marvellous. The free schools,
:47:03. > :47:08.the academy schools... No what he said this morning. He changes his
:47:09. > :47:14.mind a little bit. I think the virtuous side of his character will
:47:15. > :47:18.win out. I take the good bits. You mentioned free schools. Are you in
:47:19. > :47:25.favour of free schools or not? We are in favour of keeping good free
:47:26. > :47:31.schools and academies where you have qualified teachers... Why did you
:47:32. > :47:37.call them vanity projects forumy mummies? They are. Maybe you would
:47:38. > :47:43.enlighten us what a yummy mummy is. It' a female version of a faddy
:47:44. > :47:49.daddy. What is that? The fael version of a yummy mummy. Was that a
:47:50. > :47:52.stupid thing to say? Yes, it was a stupid thing to say. At least you
:47:53. > :47:55.are honest about that. All parents should be involved with the schools
:47:56. > :48:02.of their children. As many parents involved in the education of their
:48:03. > :48:06.children is wonderful. Bethey yummy mummies, faddy daddies or
:48:07. > :48:14.grandparents all the rest of it. We need local bureaucracy not involved
:48:15. > :48:20.in local schools. Yes and no, Peter. I agree with introduced performance
:48:21. > :48:25.related pay. Let me answer the gentleman's question. You are very
:48:26. > :48:29.controlling tonight. No, no I want to answer the audience questions
:48:30. > :48:35.first, it's their show, not ours. In answer to performance relating pay I
:48:36. > :48:39.agree with performance related pay. Head teachers should have the
:48:40. > :48:44.ability to reward good teachers and, you know, give them the rewards in
:48:45. > :48:51.the classroom. It's disappointing today we have seen strikes across
:48:52. > :48:54.the country. It inconvenienced parents and damaged the education of
:48:55. > :49:00.the children. On the issue of free schools, free schools and academies
:49:01. > :49:05.are great thing. He was trying to prevent he was now in favour of free
:49:06. > :49:08.schools. Good ones. Changed his previous approach. He was scathing
:49:09. > :49:12.about them this morning in the House of Commons. The fact, is the free
:49:13. > :49:16.schools that we set up already, three quartersers of them are good
:49:17. > :49:20.or outstanding. I want to make sure that all parts of the country we
:49:21. > :49:24.have the ability for people to set up new schools, for those schools to
:49:25. > :49:27.be successful. Where he is right, I want people who come from
:49:28. > :49:30.working-class backgrounds, who went to state schools, like I did, to
:49:31. > :49:35.have the same opportunities for having an excellent education that
:49:36. > :49:42.people who went to private schools... There was the issue of
:49:43. > :49:47.the Al-Madinah school in Derby. Let us hear from that lady. Specifically
:49:48. > :49:51.to the pay related to attainment. This is going to be judged by the
:49:52. > :49:55.the improvement of students in the class. I was actually with teachers
:49:56. > :49:59.yesterday when I was told I was going to be coming here. The
:50:00. > :50:03.allegations they wanted me to put forward to you, do you think it will
:50:04. > :50:07.be detrimental to the lower atang students. Who will make the most
:50:08. > :50:10.improvement relestically, the people at the top of the class already?
:50:11. > :50:19.What will happen to the people at the bottom of the class? Thank you,
:50:20. > :50:22.thank you. I have been a teacher in this country. I don't know if
:50:23. > :50:34.anybody else on this panel has been. I want... Have you, sorry...
:50:35. > :50:39.Unqualified though. Pardon? Performance related pay for teacher,
:50:40. > :50:44.they are not performing seals or dogs, how do you measure how good a
:50:45. > :50:51.teacher is? How do you do that? Do you do that... Let me finish. I only
:50:52. > :50:55.have a second. Do you do that by seeing how many As come out of your
:50:56. > :51:01.class? Do you do that by how clean the kids are? Do you do that by how
:51:02. > :51:05.quiet they are? How do you do it? Teachers is one of the highest jobs
:51:06. > :51:09.any civil sized society can have. We need to make teaching again
:51:10. > :51:19.honourable. We need to make it an important vocation. It's not just a
:51:20. > :51:26.job, it's a vocation. And this, this Education Secretary has made it a
:51:27. > :51:31.position for chomps and how horrible is that? When you think at the, at
:51:32. > :51:35.the end of the day, our children, eight, nine hours of the day are in
:51:36. > :51:41.the hands of people who are going to shape them as human beings. Have
:51:42. > :51:46.some respect for teachers, please. I will come back to you both. The
:51:47. > :51:50.woman, three in in the back row. Looking at the other side of the
:51:51. > :51:56.spectrum, looking at the students, my son, there is a guy in my son's
:51:57. > :52:03.class who has just finished secondary school. He got all A
:52:04. > :52:08.pluses for his exams and he comes from a working-class background. I'm
:52:09. > :52:13.not sure if the family are on benefits. He passed all the exams
:52:14. > :52:17.and qualifications to get into private school, but was turned down
:52:18. > :52:21.because he couldn't have funding to go to that private school. Now, I
:52:22. > :52:27.thought the Government was going to do something about that to reward
:52:28. > :52:32.the lower classes if they made the grade? That is a slightly different
:52:33. > :52:37.issue. Maybe it will be picked up here. Diane James, I haven't brought
:52:38. > :52:45.you in on this issue of performance related pay for teachers. You heard
:52:46. > :52:52.the attack from Jermaine? You always do that! You always do that,
:52:53. > :52:55.Jonathan. I don't see the need for performance related pay. That is my
:52:56. > :53:00.straight answer on this because the minute we start putting targets in
:53:01. > :53:05.place, minute we start engineering abuse of those targets. We have
:53:06. > :53:08.already seen a situation where employers have lost confidence in
:53:09. > :53:11.the exam results, no matter how well the children think they have done
:53:12. > :53:18.and how proud the parents might be. We have seen teachers already
:53:19. > :53:21.manipulating results. Focussing on certain students that at the lower
:53:22. > :53:27.end to push them up into a different category. The minute we start social
:53:28. > :53:32.engineering on that scale, in the teaching profession, I think is the
:53:33. > :53:36.wrong way to go. OK. We have a very, very clear message out there which
:53:37. > :53:39.at the moment is there has been too much political interference in the
:53:40. > :53:43.education system. You only have to look at countries like Singapore,
:53:44. > :53:48.which maintains its system unchanged for years. It has held up as being a
:53:49. > :53:52.top model, in terms of student quality output and this sort of
:53:53. > :53:57.thing. Michael Goef, to give him credit, he is going back to
:53:58. > :54:02.fundamentals, which is a good solid syllabus, focus, if you like, the
:54:03. > :54:08.three Rs, that is what is needed if we are prepare our young people in a
:54:09. > :54:19.global and very demanding world. Simple as that. Bonnie Greer said
:54:20. > :54:28.there was no way... I will call him Jonathan. He is coughing too. She's
:54:29. > :54:32.a friend of mine. The issue of whether you can actually measure
:54:33. > :54:39.performance in teachers, which is what this is about? You say you are
:54:40. > :54:44.in favour of it? We have systems of performance related pay already. The
:54:45. > :54:50.industrial action today is a sort of almost a slightly narrow question
:54:51. > :54:56.about the degree to which you judge it. To go back to the lady's point,
:54:57. > :55:01.I will go to her point, how do you measure progression, particularly
:55:02. > :55:07.for low attaining kids? We had a reform from the Government which we
:55:08. > :55:12.are broadly in support of, you get rid of the A* to C which just
:55:13. > :55:16.supported, in a sense, often coasting schools in wealthier
:55:17. > :55:21.areas... The point is. We only have a few minutes left. Are you saying
:55:22. > :55:26.you can measure the teachers? She says you can't? Absolutely. What is
:55:27. > :55:30.the difference between you and the Conservatives? If you are going to
:55:31. > :55:35.turn out to be them mark two, what is the point? We believe...
:55:36. > :55:39.APPLAUSE What is the point? We believe in
:55:40. > :55:45.improving teacher quality am we have a Government here which believes in
:55:46. > :55:51.deskilling teacher quality. How do you measure it? Do you believe in
:55:52. > :55:55.measurements? You can improve young people's life chances from very
:55:56. > :56:01.difficult communities. It's not acceptable to say... We are talking
:56:02. > :56:05.about the teachers Teachers. That is how you improve their life chances.
:56:06. > :56:11.I'm concerned about the pupils above all. Well said. I have applied for
:56:12. > :56:15.university, I'm very aware this is the third strike relating to
:56:16. > :56:21.teaching in five months. It's vital for me to get the same standards of
:56:22. > :56:25.education. Now is not the time for political interference in the
:56:26. > :56:30.teaching sector. We don't need any more. It's done now. We need a good
:56:31. > :56:35.education across the board. Have we teachers here, for a last comment,
:56:36. > :56:40.who have a strong view about this? Are you a teacher? I've left the
:56:41. > :56:44.school system. I was a visiting tutor, a music tutor. I wasn't
:56:45. > :56:49.affected by this. I left because I was completely demoralised by the
:56:50. > :56:53.school environment. Teachers in the staff room crying because they are
:56:54. > :56:58.over stressed and can't deal with it. It is having a knock-on effect
:56:59. > :57:02.on their pupils. They are picking up on the stress levels. It's a
:57:03. > :57:07.depressing state of affairs. That is difference from the issue of whether
:57:08. > :57:11.performance related pays, is that part of the stress? Teachers are
:57:12. > :57:15.under pressure because of these performance related. The woman
:57:16. > :57:19.behind? I'm a special needs Tate teacher and performance related pay
:57:20. > :57:24.just doesn't apply to those children. OK. There are so many
:57:25. > :57:31.hands up, I have to stop, our hour is up. My apologies to Bonnie
:57:32. > :57:40.Greer... Say it again. Say it again. Say it once more. Bonnie Greer.
:57:41. > :57:43.Good. APPLAUSE
:57:44. > :57:47.OK. Next week we will be in Liverpool, the week after that we
:57:48. > :57:54.will be in Cornwall. If you would like to come to Liverpool or St
:57:55. > :57:58.Austell. Go to our website. The address is on the screen there:
:57:59. > :58:13.if you have been listening to this on Radio 5 Live you can continue the
:58:14. > :58:15.debate on Question Time Extra Time. From basing
:58:16. > :58:16.debate on Question Time Extra Time. From Basingstoke and Question Time,
:58:17. > :58:43.good night. Some crimes defy description.
:58:44. > :58:46.Why did you choose me to lead this? We may dislike Mr Foyle,
:58:47. > :58:52.but we do not have to like him to defend him. I'm just not
:58:53. > :58:55.a very nice person.