:00:00. > :00:16.Here we are in Liverpool. Welcome to Question Time.
:00:17. > :00:21.Good evening. Welcome to our audience here who will be putting
:00:22. > :00:24.the questions to our panel who, I swear to God, do not know what the
:00:25. > :00:30.questions are until they're asked them by the audience, despite what
:00:31. > :00:34.people say. Our panel is the Conservative education minister, Liz
:00:35. > :00:39.Truss, Labour's shadow energy secretary, Caroline Flint, president
:00:40. > :00:51.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron, Peter Hitchens, and author
:00:52. > :00:55.of the book "Chavs", Owen Jones. APPLAUSE Now,
:00:56. > :00:59.we will take our first question from Joy Buoyed, please. Should the
:01:00. > :01:05.government introduce a windfall tax, ditch green levies or should we just
:01:06. > :01:09.wear more jumpers? This is the third time we've discussed this and it
:01:10. > :01:12.comes up all the time because picture keeps changing. Peter
:01:13. > :01:17.Hitchens? None of those things. What the government should do is abandon
:01:18. > :01:23.the ridiculous drive towards green energy, which is the main part of
:01:24. > :01:27.this price increase which we can control. We can't control the world
:01:28. > :01:32.price of energy, but we can get rid of this crazy system of milking the
:01:33. > :01:36.public to subsidise landowners and others to build useless windmills
:01:37. > :01:43.which most of the time don't produce any power anyway, and which are only
:01:44. > :01:46.there to serve and a mistaken dogma about man made global warming. How
:01:47. > :01:49.much could you bring down the price of energy? If you had your way, how
:01:50. > :01:56.much would it bring down the price of energy? I couldn't give you an
:01:57. > :02:01.exact figure but I think probably quietly, I would guess, ?50 or ?60
:02:02. > :02:04.off an average bill would come off as a result of those things, but
:02:05. > :02:08.what is much more important is far more will come off because all these
:02:09. > :02:11.green levies and things like the carbon floor tax, are due to hit
:02:12. > :02:15.even more heavily on the public in the next few years than they are
:02:16. > :02:19.now. That part of your electricity and bass bill is due to go up. At
:02:20. > :02:23.the same time, this country is risking serious energy problems
:02:24. > :02:28.because here we are, a country sitting on huge piles of coal which
:02:29. > :02:31.refuses to burn it on the grounds that it will create global warming,
:02:32. > :02:35.while China, for instance, builds another couple of coal-fired power
:02:36. > :02:38.stations every month. Should we reopen coal mining? I think we
:02:39. > :02:42.probably should. It is the cheapest form of energy, one we produce
:02:43. > :02:45.ourselves. It is absolutely absurd to deprive ourselves, as we are
:02:46. > :02:49.doing at the moment, we have shut down and are in the course of
:02:50. > :02:53.shutting down more perfectly efficient coal-fired power stations
:02:54. > :02:56.in this country, not because they don't work but because of European
:02:57. > :03:00.Union regulations which force us to do this crazy thing. Tim Farron?
:03:01. > :03:05.Politicians you talk about putting an extra jumper on, or politicians
:03:06. > :03:09.who have never known what is like to work hard to get next week's rent
:03:10. > :03:12.and pay the bills, and that is an outrageous suggestion to make. When
:03:13. > :03:17.it comes to the green levies, it is important to remember what they pay
:03:18. > :03:22.for: the two million lowest income households to have ?135 off their
:03:23. > :03:24.energy bills. Those are not green levies, they're redistribution.
:03:25. > :03:28.Absolutely. Why do you call them green, then? It also includes the
:03:29. > :03:32.money that we give to elderly people to insulate their homes. That's not
:03:33. > :03:37.what they're talking about. It's fair. The element of green levies
:03:38. > :03:42.talk about is not about windmills it's about making sure that people
:03:43. > :03:44.in this city have jobs in green manufacturing. If we're concerned
:03:45. > :03:47.about our children today, we've got to be considered about our children
:03:48. > :03:52.tomorrow and in the future tomorrow. Climate change is happening, the
:03:53. > :03:55.single biggest threat that this country faces in the decades to
:03:56. > :04:00.come. What is your policy for the general complaint that prices have
:04:01. > :04:06.gone up by eight to ten per cent? We have the weakest and most useless of
:04:07. > :04:15.the regulator looking after our energy sector. Ofgem is pathetic in
:04:16. > :04:20.the extreme. Ofwat is able to water companies putting up their prices.
:04:21. > :04:25.If you've to the a watchdog like Ofgem that has no tooth, bite, or
:04:26. > :04:34.bark, you put that flaming watchdog down and replace it one that can
:04:35. > :04:37.genuinely cut prices. Liz Truss? I grew up in a house
:04:38. > :04:41.where my dad was constantly telling me to put a jumper on and turning
:04:42. > :04:46.the heating off, and once the pipes froze because it was so cold and we
:04:47. > :04:50.got flooded, so, there is a limit to what you can do with a jumper. We do
:04:51. > :04:54.need - More should be done with jumpers, though? I am just saying
:04:55. > :04:59.there is a limit, and we do need. Obviously, there is, but should
:05:00. > :05:02.people take the advice of wearing a jumper like Number ten said last
:05:03. > :05:06.week? I don't think it's about jumpers. This is about how expensive
:05:07. > :05:09.energy is, and the fact that gas prices doubled under the previous
:05:10. > :05:14.government, because we didn't see investment in new power sources. We
:05:15. > :05:18.just signed a deal on Hinkley Point which will mean that there is new
:05:19. > :05:23.energy coming forward in 2023. Nuclear. But we have had years and
:05:24. > :05:26.years of a lack of investment, lack of a clear energy strategy. Yes,
:05:27. > :05:34.coal is important in the short-term. We also need to get gas going. We
:05:35. > :05:37.need to make sure we've got Shell gassing -- shale gassing exploited
:05:38. > :05:41.in this country. We also need to look at liquid natural gas. One of
:05:42. > :05:44.my previous jobs was working in a liquid natural gas shipping where
:05:45. > :05:48.you can sign in long-term contracts. But if we do need to look at the
:05:49. > :05:52.green taxes to be able to do that because, at the moment, they're
:05:53. > :05:58.incentivising particular forms of energy that are extremely expensive.
:05:59. > :06:02.You talk about - there is a point, you talk about gas. No-one is taking
:06:03. > :06:05.up this point about the green levies. I am just about to say it
:06:06. > :06:08.before you interrupted me. The point about the gas is we have to import
:06:09. > :06:14.increasing amounts of it because we no longer make our own, and we have
:06:15. > :06:18.to import it to run power stations to provide power for the enormous
:06:19. > :06:21.amounts of time that the windmills don't work because the wind isn't
:06:22. > :06:24.blowing. What is your point about rolling back the green taxes that
:06:25. > :06:27.the Prime Minister said he was going to do? What would you like to see
:06:28. > :06:29.happen? I would like to see that. I think it's wrong that we are
:06:30. > :06:33.implementing green taxes faster than other countries. We may be
:06:34. > :06:37.potentially exporting jobs out of our country because energy. You
:06:38. > :06:42.decided to do it. Because energy is so expensive. 60 per cent of taxes -
:06:43. > :06:46.These policies were put in place by Ed Miliband. You voted for them, the
:06:47. > :06:50.Tories voted for them. (All talk at once) Not everybody at once. The
:06:51. > :06:54.Prime Minister has said he wants to rue them because he now feels we're
:06:55. > :06:58.moving faster than other countries, and it is potentially damaging to
:06:59. > :07:04.our economy. It is absolutely not. It is absolutely sensible economics
:07:05. > :07:07.when people are facing high costs of energy prices. We are taking the
:07:08. > :07:13.action that Labour didn't take. A nuclear power station hasn't been
:07:14. > :07:16.built since 1995. We all knew these problems were in the pipeline for
:07:17. > :07:20.years and years. Labour did nothing to put the new energy supplies into
:07:21. > :07:24.place, they did nothing to do any nuclear power, which is a renewable
:07:25. > :07:28.source that has half the emissions of coal to be able to still hit our
:07:29. > :07:31.carbon targets, but I think there are better ways to grebe targets
:07:32. > :07:39.which were important. Which are what? Well, investing in nuclear,
:07:40. > :07:43.investing in shale gas will help us achieve those targets. The man there
:07:44. > :07:47.Perhaps the public would be more supportive of green taxes if we knew
:07:48. > :07:54.that would then generate more jobs in the future. I agree with that.
:07:55. > :07:58.Caroline Flint? First of all to Joy. What we witnessed in the last 24
:07:59. > :08:04.hours is David Cameron again making up policy on-the-hoof. He's in a
:08:05. > :08:09.panic, he is clearly sensing there is a huge public discontent with the
:08:10. > :08:13.way their bills are rising in the last few weeks, but also the last
:08:14. > :08:16.three years. We've seen ?300 go on bills. Liz, actually, the House of
:08:17. > :08:19.Commons library has confirmed that bills are going up three times
:08:20. > :08:23.faster since the general election. They doubled under your government.
:08:24. > :08:26.Three times since the general election. Let me be clear about
:08:27. > :08:30.something: what we are witnessing here is a Prime Minister who is
:08:31. > :08:34.using green levies - and of course we've got to have value for money
:08:35. > :08:39.and of course we should get jobs out of it - but he's using these green
:08:40. > :08:42.levies as an excuse for not standing up to these energy companies and the
:08:43. > :08:44.way they operate. He hasn't got the bottle to do that.
:08:45. > :08:51.APPLAUSE Can I just make a point? Caroline,
:08:52. > :08:55.he says your policies are a con trick, that you can't do it. He's
:08:56. > :09:00.flapping around because he hasn't got any. Let me be clear about what
:09:01. > :09:05.our policies are. It's not a con We've said when we look at wholesale
:09:06. > :09:08.prices, not the green levies, we looked at 2009 wholesale prices
:09:09. > :09:13.dropped by 46 per cent. We never saw that reflected in a reduction in our
:09:14. > :09:18.bills. Why is that? Because we have ended up after decades since
:09:19. > :09:23.privatisation with six companies dominating 98 per cent of the
:09:24. > :09:30.market. They create energy, sell it to themselves and sell it on to us.
:09:31. > :09:34.The reason why reduce was because John Major took away generation from
:09:35. > :09:40.supply which led to the big six today. Something needs to be done
:09:41. > :09:45.about that. Cameron is not up to it. APPLAUSE
:09:46. > :09:50.A brief answer. A lot of companies drop from 14 to six under Labour.
:09:51. > :09:57.Don't interrupt, please. Let people have a say. From - From 14 to six
:09:58. > :10:01.under Labour. What did Labour do to get high-quality low-cost energy
:10:02. > :10:04.into our country? They say that we needed nuclear power stations, they
:10:05. > :10:08.didn't build anything; they didn't do anything to promote competition
:10:09. > :10:13.in the gas and energy markets which we're now doing. That's not true.
:10:14. > :10:17.Why did the number of companies fall? Now we've got seven new
:10:18. > :10:20.entrants into the energy markets. We've got in the last two years -
:10:21. > :10:25.Don't interrupt each other. Caroline, we will see your legacy.
:10:26. > :10:27.Let's hear from Owen Jones and then one or two members of the audience.
:10:28. > :10:33.Hold the point you want to counter. I find this new Tory war on green
:10:34. > :10:42.levies fascinating. Do you remember David Cameron poncing around the
:10:43. > :10:49.Arctic hugging huskies, the Tory party that changed their logo to a
:10:50. > :10:52.tree and now they are all against these levies. The important question
:10:53. > :10:58.about how we deal with this crisis, and it is a crisis. I think it's
:10:59. > :11:03.fascinating because we heard the swivel-eyed talk, neo- McCarthyite
:11:04. > :11:09.talk of socialism and markism because of a temporary - price
:11:10. > :11:13.freeze. What Ed Miliband was proposing was too moderate because
:11:14. > :11:15.nearly seven out of ten want our energy supply back under the control
:11:16. > :11:22.of the British people in public ownership. I tell you why that is so
:11:23. > :11:29.- APPLAUSE I will tell you why that is the road
:11:30. > :11:32.we have to go down. Last year, the big six made ?3.7 billion worth of
:11:33. > :11:37.profit. They're now hiking up their prices by ten per cent. They're
:11:38. > :11:46.going to drive nine million people into fuel poverty, people lying
:11:47. > :11:50.awake at night panicking between choosing their hom and - heating
:11:51. > :11:56.their homes go and feeding their kids. Already 20,000 elderly people
:11:57. > :11:58.eeding their kids. Already 20,000 elderly people die in "excess winter
:11:59. > :12:02.deaths". According to Age UK you're three more times likely to die and a
:12:03. > :12:06.cold home as a warm home. For that reason, they have forfeited their
:12:07. > :12:09.right to control energy supply. Why would nationalisation, you've heard
:12:10. > :12:12.about the discussion of shortages of fuel and all the rest of it, why
:12:13. > :12:17.would nationalisation make any difference? Instead of lining the
:12:18. > :12:24.pockets of greedy shareholders and CEOs, the likes of whom are now
:12:25. > :12:28.building a ?2 million mansion squeezed from the bills of
:12:29. > :12:32.pensioners - Two million isn't going to go very far - We can invest that
:12:33. > :12:37.in saving lives and actually having energy prices which people can
:12:38. > :12:44.afford. The gentleman there who has had his hand up some time. It's true
:12:45. > :12:46.that the deal at Hinkley is brilliant for British jobs and
:12:47. > :12:50.business, but it just astounds me that, given the comments the panel
:12:51. > :12:54.have made tonight, why the government haven't looked at the
:12:55. > :12:59.consumer side of the deal in as much depth as the other economics within
:13:00. > :13:03.the deal. You think the pricing of what Hinkley is going to provide has
:13:04. > :13:11.not been thought about? Not as in-depth as possibly the job
:13:12. > :13:16.creation? Over there in the person with the spectacles. Why don't we
:13:17. > :13:21.get rid of the green levy tax and put more money into nuclear and
:13:22. > :13:25.coal, getting far more jobs out of nuclear and coal power stations than
:13:26. > :13:29.you are in windmills. Not in Germany. They've created hundreds of
:13:30. > :13:36.thousands of new energy jobs. Those are the jobs of the future. Just as
:13:37. > :13:40.Owen was saying there, in Germany, two thirds of energy generated,
:13:41. > :13:44.which is solar and wind, is actually coming from individuals and
:13:45. > :13:48.community-based organisations. The truth is we are apparently the
:13:49. > :13:51.windiest country in Europe, and it is not just about onshore but
:13:52. > :13:55.offshore. When I look at the places around our coastline that are
:13:56. > :13:59.looking to use offshore wind as a way of getting jobs and skills, it
:14:00. > :14:02.is an important part of the mix. I believe nuclear is part of the mix.
:14:03. > :14:05.When we were discussing nuclear under the Labour government, David
:14:06. > :14:08.Cameron said it should be a last resort and the Liberal Democrats
:14:09. > :14:12.were against using nuclear power, so they've come on a bit since then.
:14:13. > :14:17.We've doubled renewable energy under the last government and we need to
:14:18. > :14:21.do more. Investment in renewables has halved in the last two years.
:14:22. > :14:25.It's about thenism and where we need to be ahead of the curve on jobs,
:14:26. > :14:29.and also cleaner, cheaper energy in the long run. Let's come back to the
:14:30. > :14:32.current problem and the winter ahead. This point about nuclear
:14:33. > :14:35.power, Caroline is saying she's in favour of it, why did Labour do
:14:36. > :14:40.nothing when they were in government? We have signed a deal
:14:41. > :14:43.which is more affordable - We set it in train for the deal to be signed.
:14:44. > :14:47.The electricity price is more affordable than wind power based on
:14:48. > :14:50.an offshore. Let's talk about the winter ahead and what's going to
:14:51. > :14:56.happen and what your party is going to do to help people who are in
:14:57. > :15:00.difficulties as John Major put it, choose between heating in eating.
:15:01. > :15:05.What is your party going to do about it? We have a cold winter payment,
:15:06. > :15:08.we have the - That is all in place. A winter fuel allowance. These
:15:09. > :15:11.policies that were announced in the House of Commons on Wednesday, are
:15:12. > :15:13.they going to take effect immediately, quickly? Are people
:15:14. > :15:20.going to see a reduction? I think it's very important that we do
:15:21. > :15:31.support families struggling to heat their homes. How? We do find
:15:32. > :15:39.solutions. What are you going to do for those elderly people freezing in
:15:40. > :15:41.their homes? We're enabling people to get cheaper energy bills by
:15:42. > :15:43.asking companies to make sure people are on the lowest tariffs. If
:15:44. > :15:47.everybody is putting up their prices, what is the point of that?
:15:48. > :15:49.Not everybody is. Four out of six it. You've slashed the money going
:15:50. > :15:52.to the fuel poor. It is a cheek when you did nothing in office to create
:15:53. > :15:55.the supply - Only a third of that - The other - (All talk at once).
:15:56. > :15:58.Watching the two political parties handling our industry is like
:15:59. > :16:10.watching a drunken man running about with a Mingvase these -- ming vase.
:16:11. > :16:14.The Tories by privatisation breaking up the electricity generating board
:16:15. > :16:19.destroyed what was probably the most advanced and skilled centre of
:16:20. > :16:24.nuclear power generate - generation in the world. Labour finished the
:16:25. > :16:28.process off by selling Westinghouse, and we now have to beg the French
:16:29. > :16:34.and Chinese to build nuclear stations for us who pioneered civil
:16:35. > :16:40.nuclear power. It is so pathetic, it is almost beyond grief. None of them
:16:41. > :16:43.will be honest about the extent to which our policies are controlled by
:16:44. > :16:47.the European Union, which as I say is forcing us to close down
:16:48. > :16:52.perfectly coal-fired power stations which actually means that, as the
:16:53. > :16:57.power fails, which it will do as a result of this, great parks full of
:16:58. > :17:00.diesel generators which are terribly eco-friendly will have to be brought
:17:01. > :17:03.in. They don't know what they're doing. The question of this winter
:17:04. > :17:14.is of course important but the real question is from between now and
:17:15. > :17:18.2020 these insane green levies will push the prices up - push the prices
:17:19. > :17:23.of your gas and electricity up more and more and these people won't even
:17:24. > :17:29.talk about it, won't do anything about it. They're minute. They're
:17:30. > :17:33.not minute. All of them are committed to this green lunacy.
:17:34. > :17:36.Blame them not me. It's basic economics of demand and supply.
:17:37. > :17:40.There's insufficient supply of energy. It's not because of green
:17:41. > :17:47.levies. Green levies is about making sure we guarantee the future for our
:17:48. > :17:50.children. You're not answering the question. The economic point, if you
:17:51. > :17:56.want to invest in green energy that will create real jobs in this city,
:17:57. > :18:00.95 per cent of the supply chain of tidal and hydro-energy is completely
:18:01. > :18:04.and utterly British. That's the way to create jobs. Would you like to
:18:05. > :18:08.see this spending on green energy come out of taxation and therefore
:18:09. > :18:12.by implication the richer paying more than the poorer, or are you
:18:13. > :18:16.happy to have it loaded on to the bills of everybody? I am not
:18:17. > :18:22.dogmatic about it. Why not? Why should you be? Because it's a
:18:23. > :18:25.regressive tax. Are you in favour of that? The favour is to be
:18:26. > :18:28.progressive and green if you can do both. That is the right thing to do.
:18:29. > :18:32.The critical thing looking at this winter it is life and death, Owen is
:18:33. > :18:35.dead right. It will be life and death for many people. We have to
:18:36. > :18:40.tackle supply, which means creating that more creation of energy from
:18:41. > :18:44.within these shores, but it also means we regulate and regulate now
:18:45. > :18:48.because within the profit margins of the big six is the ability to cut
:18:49. > :18:55.bills for millions of people in this country. You know as well of the
:18:56. > :19:00.bill, of the average dual-fuel bill, about ?1,300 a year, ?50 of that is
:19:01. > :19:03.going to support the development of renewable energies. That's why we
:19:04. > :19:07.can't let David Cameron off the hook by blaming these green levies when
:19:08. > :19:11.the bigger issue is tackling the energy companies. We need reform of
:19:12. > :19:16.that market, and our policy is to get rid of the present regulator,
:19:17. > :19:25.and establish a tougher energy watchdog. We've heard in the news
:19:26. > :19:34.that Ed Miliband wants to put a temporary freeze on bills, and we've
:19:35. > :19:41.heard John Major wants to put a windfall tax, but should we maybe
:19:42. > :19:47.not cap the energy companies' - Proper regulation. Cap it at the
:19:48. > :19:56.rate of inflation? Yes. We can't allow the big six to keep strangling
:19:57. > :20:00.like us. Liz Truss, is it in the power of the control of Ofgem to
:20:01. > :20:05.say, "You bring those prices down" as a matter of fact? They could. You
:20:06. > :20:10.won't accept - They could do that and we did have our RPI minus X
:20:11. > :20:13.regulation in the industry. The issue is that we don't control
:20:14. > :20:18.international gas and oil prices. Those go up and down. Ed Miliband
:20:19. > :20:24.has admitted that his fairy godmother act work if international
:20:25. > :20:28.prices went up. The point is that if you cap prices and prices go up
:20:29. > :20:34.internationally, then you end up with the three-day week and the
:20:35. > :20:37.lights going off. What we need to do is enable investment into our
:20:38. > :20:42.industry and encourage investment. You didn't do the investment. You
:20:43. > :20:46.didn't do the investment, Caroline. We believe a tough energy watchdog
:20:47. > :20:50.should have the power to ensure the energy companies, not just the big
:20:51. > :20:57.six, pass those reductions on to consumers. We know when they go up,
:20:58. > :21:01.they go on our bills. You can do that now. We will move on to another
:21:02. > :21:05.topic. That's the third time in four weeks we've discussed this and each
:21:06. > :21:08.time brings out something new. If you're listening at home and want to
:21:09. > :21:23.comment, I am sure you may want to comment. You can text us or you can
:21:24. > :21:31.Twitter, both at your command. I want to take a question, please
:21:32. > :21:37.from Helena Brian, please. Is spying on our allies ever acceptable? This
:21:38. > :21:40.is in the light of Angela Merkel's complaint to President Obama that
:21:41. > :21:48.she was being spied on, and it turns out now that 35, I am told,
:21:49. > :21:52.according to tomorrow's Guardiola that 35 heads of state are being
:21:53. > :21:55.spied on. Is it acceptable? I don't think it's acceptable to use
:21:56. > :21:58.surveillance and a way which is spying on people who are our allies
:21:59. > :22:02.who work with us through international organisations, both on
:22:03. > :22:08.defence and other matters as well. I don't think it's acceptable. Why did
:22:09. > :22:14.Labour spy on the G20 participants in 2009? I am just saying unless
:22:15. > :22:19.there's a threat to our security, you have to have a rationale for
:22:20. > :22:22.this. I don't think fishing trips for spying in that way is the right
:22:23. > :22:26.thing to do. Our security services, let me say, do a fantastic job for
:22:27. > :22:31.us in all sorts of ways to help keep us safe, but there have to be rules
:22:32. > :22:36.within the that and how they operate. Next week, for the first
:22:37. > :22:39.time, the heads much MI5, MI6 and GCHQ, are going to give public
:22:40. > :22:42.evidence to the intelligence committee at the House of Commons,
:22:43. > :22:46.but there have to be rules around this. I think it's quite right that
:22:47. > :22:51.Angela Merkel is aggrieved at what she has found out. What do you think
:22:52. > :22:55.they were trying to find out? The whole rationale for spying which a
:22:56. > :22:58.lot of us security services, which few would quibble is to protect our
:22:59. > :23:02.security, stop using blown up on buses. The last time I checked,
:23:03. > :23:05.Angela Merkel wasn't likely to sign up to international terrorism,
:23:06. > :23:08.neither was, for example, the Mexican president who was also
:23:09. > :23:12.apparently spied on. Apparently, that was actually for industrial
:23:13. > :23:15.espionage, effectively. It was the US spying on them for those reasons.
:23:16. > :23:19.I think there needs to be a wider debate about this. I think it's
:23:20. > :23:23.welcomed the likes of Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning who I think
:23:24. > :23:27.are genuine American heroes. APPLAUSE What
:23:28. > :23:33.they've done is they've shone a light on the dark recesses of power,
:23:34. > :23:36.how extensive this spying is, they've revealed secrets like the
:23:37. > :23:39.facts of some of the outrageous things that have happened in Iraq
:23:40. > :23:43.because of the American occupation. The results, for example, of drone
:23:44. > :23:46.attacks in Pakistan which are increasing the risk of terrorism,
:23:47. > :23:51.not reducing it, and instead what we should be doing is instead of having
:23:52. > :23:54.this spying on allies, on ordinary people as well, who were law-abiding
:23:55. > :23:58.people going about their own business, we should make sure the
:23:59. > :24:01.security services are accountable, that they don't have this argument,
:24:02. > :24:05.they're protecting our liberty, therefore they can do exactly what
:24:06. > :24:08.they want, and we have an accountable security service, and we
:24:09. > :24:16.have freedom of information to know exactly the sort of things they're
:24:17. > :24:21.doing. Peter Hitchens? The first problem is
:24:22. > :24:26.that our allies today might be our enemies tomorrow. Also - Angela
:24:27. > :24:29.Merkel? People who appear to be our allies might be our rivals. I think
:24:30. > :24:32.you'll find an awful lot of intelligence work is commercial and
:24:33. > :24:37.industrial, not military. I think that that is where much of it is
:24:38. > :24:39.concentrated. If you don't want your country to have that kind of
:24:40. > :24:44.information, then of course you can take a moral decision and say we're
:24:45. > :24:47.not going to do it. What do they want to know about Angela Merkel? I
:24:48. > :24:52.don't know. What would you want to know? Almost nothing I want to know
:24:53. > :24:57.about Angela Merkel. Except how it was her family came to move to East
:24:58. > :25:00.Germany which puzzled me when everybody else was trying to get
:25:01. > :25:04.out. What? Leaving that aside, I don't think tapping her telephone is
:25:05. > :25:08.going to discover that. I think it's much more worrying that, not the
:25:09. > :25:11.politicians who ought I think reasonably to assume that probably
:25:12. > :25:14.has tried to tap their telephones all the time anyway, not the
:25:15. > :25:18.politicians having their telephones tapped but ordinary citizens are
:25:19. > :25:21.having their telephones tapped and their e-mails registered and read by
:25:22. > :25:27.people who have no business doing so. That does outrage me. When the
:25:28. > :25:31.journalists were found to have hacked into the phones of
:25:32. > :25:36.politicians like John Prescott, they were hung, drawn and quartered,
:25:37. > :25:40.regulation was bandid round, everybody went to town on them. I
:25:41. > :25:47.agree what they did was completely wrong, and it was overreaching to
:25:48. > :25:50.the enth degree, but why should we feel any different when politicians
:25:51. > :25:54.are the victims than when the general public are the victims, and
:25:55. > :26:01.it is the politicians who are actually initiating it?
:26:02. > :26:04.APPLAUSE Do you think the politicians are
:26:05. > :26:10.initiating in the sense that he means, agreeing to it? In this
:26:11. > :26:13.country, any activity of that kind, surveillance activity, ultimately
:26:14. > :26:18.has to be signed off by the Foreign Secretary, and the home secretary,
:26:19. > :26:23.and I think that's right because it is a very important matter. When we
:26:24. > :26:26.spied on the G20 participants, that had been agreed by Labour's home
:26:27. > :26:31.secretary? That's certainly the case under our government, that it does
:26:32. > :26:33.have to have senior level sign-off within government. I think the
:26:34. > :26:38.difficulty here is we're dealing with a much more complex world than
:26:39. > :26:42.we are in the Cold War where it was clear who the enemies were and where
:26:43. > :26:45.they were. Now we have terrorist networks embedded in our own country
:26:46. > :26:49.and other countries. It may be something who looks entirely
:26:50. > :26:54.innocent, and I I am worried about the way the way GCHG operating
:26:55. > :27:01.exposed in public so those terrorists find out about the nature
:27:02. > :27:04.of the surveillance that's going on. We now have much more open world,
:27:05. > :27:08.technology makes it easier to share secrets, it's easier to get those
:27:09. > :27:13.things out, and our law enforcement agencies do I think have to have the
:27:14. > :27:19.power to be able to deal with those threats as they arise, otherwise we
:27:20. > :27:24.will all be in serious danger. Do they do themselves any service by
:27:25. > :27:27.tapping Angela Merkel's telephone? I am not defending her telephoning
:27:28. > :27:30.tapped. If anyone tapped the telephones that the department of
:27:31. > :27:36.education, they wouldn't find anything more interesting than
:27:37. > :27:40.what's in the new maths GCSE. Terrorism is being used as a pretext
:27:41. > :27:42.to do this. You're talking about the Brazilian Prime Minister.
:27:43. > :27:49.APPLAUSE The head of Germany. I am not
:27:50. > :27:53.defending heads of states' telephoning tapped. I am responding
:27:54. > :27:57.to Owen's points about the secreting put out in the public domain, about
:27:58. > :28:01.how we find out about these activities, because we are in
:28:02. > :28:06.serious danger from very worrying terrorist networks. Also danger in
:28:07. > :28:10.having our hard-won liberties and freedoms that our enseverities
:28:11. > :28:16.fought for,ing taken away from us using the pretext of terrorism. We
:28:17. > :28:20.must not let that happen. It's about time our government
:28:21. > :28:25.started standing up for the people of this country instead of leaning
:28:26. > :28:29.backwards for the Americans all the time. We need to stand up to the
:28:30. > :28:34.Americans and start fighting back and stop cutting our armed forces as
:28:35. > :28:37.well. To expand on what the gentleman said there. I am worried
:28:38. > :28:41.about how long before the EU countries start pointing the finger
:28:42. > :28:45.at us. It's been known that GCHQ has a close working relationship with
:28:46. > :28:51.the NSA, so we don't know how far they're going. In all likelihood,
:28:52. > :28:55.this is happening. I don't know why Angela Merkel moved to East Germany.
:28:56. > :29:01.It was her parents. Another former communist who moved to the right, I
:29:02. > :29:04.don't know. This wasn't just intelligence gathering, this is
:29:05. > :29:08.tapping the phone of a friendly head of state. Let's just ignore for a
:29:09. > :29:11.moment, and I will come to the civil liberties and a minute, how utterly
:29:12. > :29:15.stupid is that? Whatever game that the US thought they might get from
:29:16. > :29:18.this was always going to be completely outweighed by the damage
:29:19. > :29:22.it has done to the diplomatic relations between two very, very
:29:23. > :29:26.important countries. The post war effort through the European Union,
:29:27. > :29:29.NATO, the United Nations, the G20 more recently, in bringing countries
:29:30. > :29:35.together, sharing interests to make sure we don't go to war again, is
:29:36. > :29:39.undermined by stupid reckless decisions like this. It forms part
:29:40. > :29:42.of a culture that runs through certainly the US administration, and
:29:43. > :29:45.has run through the administration before this one in this country,
:29:46. > :29:48.where we think people's civil liberties are not as important as
:29:49. > :29:56.whatever the agenda of the political leaders of the day happen to be. All
:29:57. > :30:00.more points and we go to another question. I think when you get into
:30:01. > :30:03.the realm of spying, we're fooling ourselves if we think this is the
:30:04. > :30:09.first time allies have spied on allies. I am sure the British spied
:30:10. > :30:12.on the Americans before they came into the Second World War. Once you
:30:13. > :30:17.get into the realms of spying, well, yes, it's just spice will be spice,
:30:18. > :30:21.and that is not to kind of give an excuse to them, but I am saying once
:30:22. > :30:24.you get into that, they've got all this technology, I think they've
:30:25. > :30:28.been greedy, spoilt for choice and have tapped Angela Merkel's phone
:30:29. > :30:32.because they can, simply. It's going to blow back on them now.
:30:33. > :30:37.I think any time you sacrifice liberty for security, it's a recipe
:30:38. > :30:41.for disaster, flat out. Any time you sacrifice what? Liberty for
:30:42. > :30:46.security. Like the other people were saying with the spying going on,
:30:47. > :30:51.it's just been going on for years, and the only difference now is that
:30:52. > :30:56.you're telling us about it. Thank you very much.
:30:57. > :31:01.The next question. A nuclear engineer? The question is what is
:31:02. > :31:05.wrong in having unqualified teachers in preschools if they're qualified
:31:06. > :31:12.enough in the subject they teach? This is the row about free schools
:31:13. > :31:15.which is pretty much the same as academy schools between, actually,
:31:16. > :31:19.between two sides of your party, it seems, because you all said it was a
:31:20. > :31:23.good idea to have free schools with unqualified teachers, and David Laws
:31:24. > :31:28.said how brilliant the unqualified teachers were, and suddenly Nick
:31:29. > :31:32.Clegg saying they've all got to be qualified in the future. What is
:31:33. > :31:36.wrong with having unqualified teachers who are good for for the
:31:37. > :31:38.subjects they teach. I agree with the proposals and policies of this
:31:39. > :31:41.government in terms of the decision to give teachers and head teachers
:31:42. > :31:45.far more freedom and autonomy. That's right. It's right to use
:31:46. > :31:48.experts in the classroom to bring them in. Use Lord sugar to talk
:31:49. > :31:56.about business on a one-off occasion. For your PE lessons, bring
:31:57. > :32:00.this Suarez. I worked in higher education for for 13 years before I
:32:01. > :32:04.became an MP, so I don't want to offend everyone I worked with, but
:32:05. > :32:09.one of the problems we've been moving away from in universities is
:32:10. > :32:13.we had people with PhDs coming out of their ears, geniuses, and some of
:32:14. > :32:17.them incapable of communicating that genius to anybody else. It's no
:32:18. > :32:27.gooding a brilliant expert if you can't teach. What about if you are a
:32:28. > :32:31.brilliant expert and you can teach? If you're a brilliant expert and you
:32:32. > :32:34.can teach then don't undermine the teaching profession by not taking
:32:35. > :32:37.the qualification. I am happy for people to be taken on with a free
:32:38. > :32:41.school or academy so long as they learn and do it on the job. We need
:32:42. > :32:46.to remember iffing an expert is a good thing, butting a qualified
:32:47. > :32:52.teacher is also an incredibly good thing. Our teachers are trained and
:32:53. > :32:55.we undermine the entire profession and damage our children if we throw
:32:56. > :33:00.away the importance of having a qualified teacher in the classroom.
:33:01. > :33:05.What is going on in your party, because you signed up to this policy
:33:06. > :33:08.in part of the coalition, then David laws comes in as the schools
:33:09. > :33:11.minister and he says the exact opposite of what you just said. Now
:33:12. > :33:16.you as president say what you have just said, and your leader says
:33:17. > :33:20.something else. What's going on? You seem to be all over the shop. I am
:33:21. > :33:25.not of the view that we are. David Laws defended the free schools. You
:33:26. > :33:28.said there are plenty of teachers who may not have formal
:33:29. > :33:31.qualifications but do a superb job. In a specific instance, and you can
:33:32. > :33:37.say you bring somebody into a class and use them as an expert. You know
:33:38. > :33:41.that's like that. My take is, and Nick Clegg's take, and it's been
:33:42. > :33:44.repeated again today, is that you do not, must not, undermine the
:33:45. > :33:48.teaching profession. This isn't about the ideology about whether it
:33:49. > :33:51.is right or wrong, this is about the experience of our children in our
:33:52. > :33:54.schools. Which Liberal Democrat do you listen to? Children in our
:33:55. > :33:59.schools deserve to be taught by children who know what they are
:34:00. > :34:03.doing and are capable of teaching. Liz Truss, you're the children's
:34:04. > :34:07.minister. I think we have to look at why we are doing this. We had a
:34:08. > :34:11.report from the OECDsy said we have some of the lowest rates of literacy
:34:12. > :34:14.and numeracy in our population compared to other countries. We need
:34:15. > :34:19.to make sure that our children get the skills they need at schools so
:34:20. > :34:22.they can go and get good jobs. We're not doing that at the moment. That's
:34:23. > :34:29.why we are raising standards in GCSEs, that's why we are changing
:34:30. > :34:32.the curriculum to make it more effective and have academies and
:34:33. > :34:37.free schools so they can deliver. The evidence is they are deliver.
:34:38. > :34:40.Academies are performing better, free schools are getting better
:34:41. > :34:44.Ofsted reports than other schools are. It is because they have those
:34:45. > :34:48.freedoms that schools like independent schools, which of course
:34:49. > :34:52.the Deputy Prime Minister went to, have that they're able to do that.
:34:53. > :34:56.They're able to bring this the experts, able to bring this the
:34:57. > :35:00.great physics teachers, engineers, and great artists. Ultimately,
:35:01. > :35:04.Ofsted goes and inspects those schools to make sure teaching is up
:35:05. > :35:08.to scratch, and if it is not, we haul them in pretty quickly. We've
:35:09. > :35:13.also got the exam results to judge by Howell those schools are doing.
:35:14. > :35:15.We need to do something serious to reform education in this country,
:35:16. > :35:19.because we know that education is vitally important for the economy,
:35:20. > :35:26.but we know that we're not getting enough talented people with the
:35:27. > :35:31.skills they need. One of the things that motivates me so much is I grew
:35:32. > :35:34.up in Leeds, I went to a comprehensive school, like Owen, I
:35:35. > :35:39.got into Oxford, but I was one of only a few children to be able to do
:35:40. > :35:42.that. We need to make sure we don't waste our talent. We've got so many
:35:43. > :35:45.talented young people, and we're not giving them the education we
:35:46. > :35:50.deserve. And unqualified teachers is the way to do it. Is that is the
:35:51. > :35:54.question? Giving best teachers the power to hire the best possible
:35:55. > :35:59.person, whether they're a great teacher, mathematician, is the way
:36:00. > :36:05.to do it. Owen Jones? Firstly, I don't want to be too brutal on the
:36:06. > :36:09.Liberal Democrats, they've done so many U-turns and policy shifts and
:36:10. > :36:14.terms, Tim, I am surprised you can walk! I've changed nothing. Often
:36:15. > :36:20.you have the rhetoric of Tony Benn and the voting record much George
:36:21. > :36:24.Osborne. In terms of the specifics of free schools, Finland has one of
:36:25. > :36:28.the best education systems in the whole world and they train up their
:36:29. > :36:31.teachers to a best possible degree. There is a difference knowing how to
:36:32. > :36:35.teach and being an expert in your particular field. What free schools
:36:36. > :36:39.are doing, in my view, and I am a person like yourself, proudly
:36:40. > :36:43.comprehensively educated, my primary school is bottom five per cent by
:36:44. > :36:46.results, the only boy to go to university, far more ended up in
:36:47. > :36:50.prison, it wasn't because I was brighter, it was because I had odds
:36:51. > :36:59.stacked in my favour from day one. If you look in the gap at vocabulary
:37:00. > :37:03.at age five between an affluent and a poor child, if you look at
:37:04. > :37:07.children turning up hungry, poor housing or health, these are the
:37:08. > :37:09.issues that are driving divisions in our education system, not the
:37:10. > :37:14.structure of schools, and free schools, frankly, on average, and
:37:15. > :37:17.we've seen in 2011, they're less likely to take in kids from free
:37:18. > :37:22.school meals, sucking resources from other schools, and going in areas
:37:23. > :37:28.often where there is a surplus of places. Let's stop scapegoating
:37:29. > :37:31.comprehensive education for all the ills of society, let's wage war on
:37:32. > :37:41.the causes of education system inequality, and build an education
:37:42. > :37:47.system we can be proud of. I want to go back to the questioner. My
:37:48. > :37:52.thinking is if you are passionate about science, passionate about
:37:53. > :37:55.mathematics, you have a degree in mathematics and science to back it
:37:56. > :38:00.up, you can teach. You can? APPLAUSE
:38:01. > :38:04.Peter Hitchens? I don't know what the evidence is that our current
:38:05. > :38:06.system much teacher training is particularly successful in training
:38:07. > :38:09.teachers. As far as I know, it was introduced in the days of Harold
:38:10. > :38:14.Wilson, and before then, we had rather effective state schools
:38:15. > :38:17.called grammar schools which have been subsequently abolished in acts
:38:18. > :38:23.of extraordinary spite. I think it is also true that the independent
:38:24. > :38:28.schools don't have the requirement that the most state schools have to
:38:29. > :38:30.employ teachers who have gone through the ordinary teacher
:38:31. > :38:34.training. It is different, privileged people from privileged
:38:35. > :38:38.educational backwards. We don't start from the same place in life,
:38:39. > :38:42.Peter. I will carry on if I might. The point I am trying to make here
:38:43. > :38:44.is the fact that someone has a qualification doesn't necessarily
:38:45. > :38:48.make them a good teacher any more than anything else does. What makes
:38:49. > :38:50.them is a good teacher is that ability to teach, the desire to
:38:51. > :38:54.teach and communicate which some people have, some people don't, and
:38:55. > :38:57.that has to be sorted out actually in practice, as all of us found at
:38:58. > :39:00.school, with the teachers who inspired us, and the teachers who
:39:01. > :39:05.didn't. What you really need to worry about most of all is making
:39:06. > :39:08.sure that those children who, at the moment, are denied access to good
:39:09. > :39:12.education because their parents are not rich, have access to good
:39:13. > :39:16.education. I think a lot of that good education will be provided by
:39:17. > :39:22.teachers who don't have formal teacher training qualifications.
:39:23. > :39:25.Free schools are a stunt and a gimmick as are academies. Free
:39:26. > :39:32.schools will never, ever change the lives of most people. What all the
:39:33. > :39:35.parties need to do is admit they made a catastrophic in 1965 by
:39:36. > :39:39.abolishing selection by ability and bring it back. Those people who sit
:39:40. > :39:43.on this panel and say they went to comprehensive schools will for the
:39:44. > :39:47.most part will turn out not to have gone to normal comprehensive schools
:39:48. > :39:49.but the ones where only some people can go to. How is it they go to
:39:50. > :39:54.them? Generally because their parents lived in areas that other
:39:55. > :40:01.people couldn't afford to live in. That is selection by money. That's
:40:02. > :40:03.selection by money, and it is very, very unfair, and it is quite
:40:04. > :40:08.extraordinary that parties which claim to be in favour of improving
:40:09. > :40:13.the situation of the poor constantly refuse to reintroduce a system which
:40:14. > :40:16.selects by ability. We have it in Kent, and poorer kids are less
:40:17. > :40:26.likely to do well in Kent where selection is still in place. It is
:40:27. > :40:32.distorted because it's - Caroline Flint hasn't spoken on this, your
:40:33. > :40:37.comprehensive school in a - I grew up in Kale Green in Stockport. My
:40:38. > :40:42.secondary school was above the national average, my sixth form was
:40:43. > :40:47.below the national average. The comprehensive I went to is an
:40:48. > :40:50.average comprehensive in Leeds. I checked once with a mate of mine,
:40:51. > :40:56.and the people of my year, five went to prison, four went to university.
:40:57. > :41:03.That was a good school, then. We were a bad year. My sister's was
:41:04. > :41:07.quite good. I went to a comprehensive school in Twickenham
:41:08. > :41:12.London, my children went to - Twickenham is a middle-class area of
:41:13. > :41:16.course. Yes, I suppose, but I am not from a middle-class family. It was a
:41:17. > :41:20.former grammar school. Whenever we have these conversations about how
:41:21. > :41:24.good the grammars were, only a few young people got the benefit.
:41:25. > :41:31.Secondary modern wrote off generations of young people and did
:41:32. > :41:37.nothing for them. Can I come to the free schools. There are 174 free
:41:38. > :41:43.schools, there are over 21,000 state schools, and the amount of time we
:41:44. > :41:46.are spending on free schools seems completely a ridiculous amount of
:41:47. > :41:50.time for the government. On the issue of unqualified teachers, look,
:41:51. > :41:55.I know from my own children's education we had sports people, we
:41:56. > :41:58.had other people come in who did master classes, who worked alongside
:41:59. > :42:02.the teachers. We've always had that provision in the state school system
:42:03. > :42:05.to use light that skill, but I believe strongly that actually we
:42:06. > :42:08.should support qualifications for teachers, and if that means we bring
:42:09. > :42:13.people from industry, or from the army, or elsewhere, they can come in
:42:14. > :42:20.but they should qualify. Let's listen to the examples of what has
:42:21. > :42:25.happened recently. The Al Medina school in Derby had unqualified
:42:26. > :42:29.teachers. In Pimlico, a 27-year-old was put in charge of that school
:42:30. > :42:33.with no qualification for teaching, no management experience, and
:42:34. > :42:37.walked, and this is what is going on with this free school policy. I'm
:42:38. > :42:41.afraid to say, Tim, that when Labour put forward some restrictions on the
:42:42. > :42:44.legislation around the use of unqualified teachers, I don't know
:42:45. > :42:49.what you did, but Nick Clegg didn't support Labour on that, and now once
:42:50. > :42:52.again we've seen when the going gets tough, he walks and tries to cover
:42:53. > :42:58.himself in glory. Thank you. Just a couple more
:42:59. > :43:01.points. As a teacher myself, I am absolutely disgusted that it is
:43:02. > :43:04.acceptable for people not to be trained. It is a profession. You
:43:05. > :43:13.know, other professions are not treated like that.
:43:14. > :43:16.APPLAUSE Other professions are treated with a
:43:17. > :43:20.lot more respect than teachers, and it seems to have a go at teachers
:43:21. > :43:24.all the time. Anyone can teach. That's what people think. You think?
:43:25. > :43:29.It's a very, very difficult job. You can't teach until - You need to be
:43:30. > :43:35.trained how to teach. I agree. I just want to say, I have a PhD and I
:43:36. > :43:39.am incredibly passionate about my subject but I still think I should
:43:40. > :43:45.be qualified, and it brings the whole reputation of the job into
:43:46. > :43:51.question if we can't make sure that people have - You wouldn't have an
:43:52. > :43:56.unqualified doctor. What is your PhD in? Classics. People should study
:43:57. > :44:01.Greek and Latin. Do you teach it? I go into schools and I don't think I
:44:02. > :44:06.am so brilliant that I can then just teach. I volunteer, but I would do a
:44:07. > :44:12.PGCE if I became a teacher. Well done.
:44:13. > :44:16.We have to keep moving. The next question, please.
:44:17. > :44:21.As politicians and political commentators, would you say it is -
:44:22. > :44:24.what would you say to those who may feel disillusioned with the current
:44:25. > :44:26.political system. You know well, anybody watching this programme, and
:44:27. > :44:31.listening to the audiences know, that there is a great disillusion
:44:32. > :44:37.with everybody involved in politics, so, as politicians and political
:44:38. > :44:39.commentators, what would you say to people who feel disillusioned? Owen
:44:40. > :44:42.Jones? I am very passionate about this. I think there's a huge
:44:43. > :44:46.disconnect with politics and ordinary people in this country. I
:44:47. > :44:50.think that is partly because politics is increasinglying treated
:44:51. > :44:53.not as a duty or a service but as a profession where you increasingly
:44:54. > :44:56.get politicians who have never had a job outside the Westminster bubble,
:44:57. > :45:00.where you get a situation where if you look at the background of MPs,
:45:01. > :45:04.they're increasingly not drawn from working class background - actually,
:45:05. > :45:08.Caroline is an exception, really, if you look at MPs, because over two
:45:09. > :45:11.thirds of MPs are now from professional middle class backwards.
:45:12. > :45:14.I think this has a consequence because it means MPs can't relate to
:45:15. > :45:18.people and their everyday issues. I will give you one example, and I
:45:19. > :45:22.don't often quote Hazel Blears, I'll be honest with you. I interviewed
:45:23. > :45:25.her before the last election. I said five million are stuck on social
:45:26. > :45:29.housing waiting lists in this country. Why didn't Labour do
:45:30. > :45:32.anything about it. She said to her credit, "We just - there just wasn't
:45:33. > :45:36.anyone in government who was interested in housing." But if you
:45:37. > :45:40.had people who had been stuck in a social housing waiting list, someone
:45:41. > :45:43.in their community or family, and you get those people into
:45:44. > :45:47.parliament, those issues would be far more widely addressed. How do
:45:48. > :45:53.you traditionally get them into parliament? Traditionally it was
:45:54. > :45:57.trade unions and government, they trained up working class people, but
:45:58. > :46:00.as well as that, I beg people, and I really want to emphasise this point,
:46:01. > :46:03.politics isn't just the soap opera at the toe, it's not about
:46:04. > :46:08.parliament. When we look at all the things we won throughout history,
:46:09. > :46:14.whether it be women's rights, LGBT rights, workers' rights, it wasn't
:46:15. > :46:17.won because of those above, it was because ordinary people, our mothers
:46:18. > :46:24.and fathers, grand fathers and grandmothers, often faceless, they
:46:25. > :46:28.got out there, and fought, and mademade their voice heard. We stand
:46:29. > :46:32.as a country on the shoulders of giants. We own our gains and rights
:46:33. > :46:36.to those people. Don't let politicians just be the one if you
:46:37. > :46:40.like, who pass these laws the. Get out there, be organised and make
:46:41. > :46:49.your voice heard. That's a proud tradition in this country.
:46:50. > :46:54.APPLAUSE So you're going to stand for
:46:55. > :46:57.parliament, then? No, I am not. And I actually want people outside the
:46:58. > :47:04.Westminster bubble, like people here to stand and put themselves forward.
:47:05. > :47:08.Peter Hitchens? Those who feel disillusioned with the current
:47:09. > :47:14.system? Are right to do so. They've been systematically betrayed. I see
:47:15. > :47:21.no end to it. There are so many issues which have been visited on
:47:22. > :47:23.this country by an elite of self-selecting closed-minded people,
:47:24. > :47:27.who are well represented here this evening, and largely incompetent as
:47:28. > :47:34.well, which have done enormous damage to our way of life. For
:47:35. > :47:37.instance, who now has anything to say about the deindustrialisation of
:47:38. > :47:40.this country and the destruction of manufacturing jobs under the
:47:41. > :47:46.Thatcher government? Who can reverse it? Who can do anything about it?
:47:47. > :47:50.Who will say anything on this panel about the catastrop of mass
:47:51. > :47:53.immigration which has changed this country irrevocably into somewhere
:47:54. > :47:57.completely different from what it was. They won't talk about it, won't
:47:58. > :48:00.ta seriously about the immense problems of crime and disorder which
:48:01. > :48:05.affect millions of people in their homes and leave them utterly
:48:06. > :48:09.vulnerable to all kinds of unpleasantness and violence, and
:48:10. > :48:12.menace which they never used have to undergo, and there is no sense
:48:13. > :48:14.whatsoever that there will be any reform of the criminal justice
:48:15. > :48:21.system or any attempt to put it right again. These are just some of
:48:22. > :48:26.the subjects which this elite just constantly, constant, refuse to
:48:27. > :48:32.discuss. Why? Because they themselves have an ideology, have
:48:33. > :48:36.the ideology of metropolitan bourgeois bow peoplians, they - Are
:48:37. > :48:40.you a man of the people, then? Well - You're the only person on this
:48:41. > :48:46.panel who is from - I know - I don't claim to be, but you're making a - I
:48:47. > :48:49.am simply staying these are the things which they will not do
:48:50. > :48:52.anything about which they will not say because they themselves benefit.
:48:53. > :48:55.They themselves benefit from many of the things which do immense damage.
:48:56. > :49:00.They've benefited from globalisation. They've benefited
:49:01. > :49:04.from mass immigration. You talk about mass immigrants, immigrants -
:49:05. > :49:09.They're not effective, their children don't go to bog-standard
:49:10. > :49:14.comprehensives. They're not - Who are you talking about? They're not
:49:15. > :49:18.affected by crime. I know what they do. All the time, they will not
:49:19. > :49:21.discuss these things, they will not do anything about them. They ignore
:49:22. > :49:24.what you say. You think that a general election time you can do
:49:25. > :49:28.something about it, no. The people who stand before you at general
:49:29. > :49:30.election time for the political parties are people who have been
:49:31. > :49:34.pre-selected. You have no control. If I stood for parliament, or if he
:49:35. > :49:38.stood for parliament from our positions, which are quite popular,
:49:39. > :49:44.the fact is the party machines would erase us. The immense amounts of
:49:45. > :49:48.money they are able to spend, the enormous access they have to
:49:49. > :49:53.broadcast - You have more access than I have, Peter. It would make it
:49:54. > :49:57.impossible for anyone - Peter, sorry, the question was what would
:49:58. > :50:03.you say to people who feel like you clearly do? I just said it. Wait a
:50:04. > :50:07.moment. What would you say to them about how to change things? Are you
:50:08. > :50:11.going to stand as an MP? I am sorry. Are you going to stand as an MP? No,
:50:12. > :50:14.because for the reasons I've just explained. I wouldn't have the
:50:15. > :50:20.faintest chance. My advice to anybody young enough to do so is to
:50:21. > :50:26.emigrate before it is too late. For goodness sake. This is a
:50:27. > :50:29.ridiculous counsel of despair. I think our country's best days are
:50:30. > :50:32.ahead of us, not behind us, and Peter Hitchens needs to get with the
:50:33. > :50:37.programme. I got involved politics actually through my mum who was a
:50:38. > :50:40.member of the CND and used to take me on marches, and I thought this is
:50:41. > :50:46.interesting and exciting, it was 1980s, there was a big debate about
:50:47. > :50:48.ideas. I think that if you want to be involved in politics, you can be
:50:49. > :50:52.involved in politics, and I want more people to be involved in
:50:53. > :50:58.politics. I think we should make parliament more open, more easy to
:50:59. > :51:01.access, more friendly to people from different backwards. I think it is
:51:02. > :51:05.becoming quite an elite of a particular type of professional - I
:51:06. > :51:08.think that's a problem. I think we need to this about the way it
:51:09. > :51:11.operates, the terms and conditions, all those kinds of things. I am
:51:12. > :51:14.excited by the primaries we've done in the Conservative Party to get a
:51:15. > :51:20.wider group of people involved in politics. Given that up now. You
:51:21. > :51:22.tried it and gave it up. New ones coming up, actually, David. Maybe
:51:23. > :51:26.Question Time might be involved. What we need to do is we need to
:51:27. > :51:29.open up politics, we need to make local government count through
:51:30. > :51:33.localism so that people are involved. But this idea that
:51:34. > :51:37.everything is always awful, that's one of the reasons why people turn
:51:38. > :51:41.off politics because they just here this constant moaning. The Daily
:51:42. > :51:49.Mail might call you the man who hates Britain after what you just
:51:50. > :51:53.said! Feel free to call me - It's not Britain I hate, I love the
:51:54. > :51:58.country, it's the people who run it. The people who live here? The
:51:59. > :52:02.immigrants? Who are wrecking it, so like anybody who cares about this
:52:03. > :52:05.country, I am stressed by it. I see no hope from these interchangeable
:52:06. > :52:18.people. She was a Liberal Democrat. For all I know, she still is.
:52:19. > :52:21.APPLAUSE I am 19, and so I haven't had the
:52:22. > :52:25.chance to vote yet, I missed the last general election, and,
:52:26. > :52:28.unfortunately, missed the Welsh referendum as well, and I guess
:52:29. > :52:32.going back to the disenchantment point, I guess I hate to use the
:52:33. > :52:35.argument that they're all the same, or that they're all liars, but I
:52:36. > :52:41.feel as though coming from a Labour background myself, I feel as though
:52:42. > :52:46.there is really no difference in itself. They've become, I would hate
:52:47. > :52:50.to South it, but a centre-right party. I wish there was a new party
:52:51. > :52:53.on the left, but I feel as though they would never stand a chance of
:52:54. > :53:01.this private party of three big groups. I wish somebody would
:53:02. > :53:04.address that. One point of view is that the trade unions represent the
:53:05. > :53:11.common people, the common man. Wouldn't be it a good idea if the
:53:12. > :53:18.trade unions put forward their common people. That's what they're
:53:19. > :53:22.accused of doing. One of the ways in which we measure political
:53:23. > :53:25.disillusion is by analysing voter turnout at elections. This has been
:53:26. > :53:30.very low in recent times. Perhaps we could do something practical about
:53:31. > :53:34.it by having elections on Sundays instead of Thursdays as they do in
:53:35. > :53:38.some other European countries. I am not sure that would change the views
:53:39. > :53:44.of politicians. People don't vote because they don't liking what is
:53:45. > :53:50.offered to them. Tim Farron. Before I answer the question, we've got to
:53:51. > :53:55.get away from this nonsense peddled by people and people like him that
:53:56. > :54:03.immigration is a curse in this country. It is a blessing.
:54:04. > :54:06.See! Look at the hard facts: it is worth ?7 billion to our economy,
:54:07. > :54:09.never mind anything else. Are people disillusioned with politics and
:54:10. > :54:13.should they be? People are disillusioned with it, and I am
:54:14. > :54:18.often myself sometimes, if I am honest with you. I joined the
:54:19. > :54:22.Liberals when I was 16, I joined Shelter first, I watched Cathy Come
:54:23. > :54:26.Home and made me cry. People do vote but don't join political parties any
:54:27. > :54:29.more. I saw around me in the 1980s a bit further north than here half the
:54:30. > :54:33.parents of the kids in my class, including sometimes at my own, out
:54:34. > :54:37.of work, and out of hope, and despairing, and the waste of those
:54:38. > :54:40.lives, and I thought I can either sit back and let that happen or get
:54:41. > :54:45.involved and I can try and do something about it. I joined the
:54:46. > :54:48.Liberals not as a career move. I would have been stupid if I had. It
:54:49. > :54:55.wasn't a glittering route to politics. We're talking about
:54:56. > :55:01.people's view of you, not your view of yourself! What are people's view
:55:02. > :55:03.of you? Don't get involved involved in politics because you want to
:55:04. > :55:06.become a member of parliament. I thought the world is grimmer than it
:55:07. > :55:10.could be, and we can make a difference, and you will make
:55:11. > :55:13.certain the people like Peter are proved right if you don't - You're
:55:14. > :55:16.part of the problem because the Liberal Democrats inspired to their
:55:17. > :55:20.credit hundreds of thousands of people for the last election, and
:55:21. > :55:23.then they betrayed them on every single pledge.
:55:24. > :55:31.APPLAUSE Those people will never trust a
:55:32. > :55:37.politician again because of what you did. Silence. Caroline Flint. I
:55:38. > :55:43.think there's lots of examples where we have let ourselves down as
:55:44. > :55:47.politicians. You therefore can't blame people forking cynical about
:55:48. > :55:52.what they've seen. But when I joined the Labour Party at FE College, it
:55:53. > :55:55.was because there was a Labour Club at the further education college. I
:55:56. > :55:59.had never met an MP in my life, and I joined because I wanted to change
:56:00. > :56:05.things. I looked at my own family and I felt as passionately then as I
:56:06. > :56:08.do now that your chance in life shouldn't be determined from the
:56:09. > :56:12.family you come from and the wealth you have. Everybody should have a
:56:13. > :56:15.chance to succeed and that's why I joined the Labour Party. But I also
:56:16. > :56:20.accept after many years now in politics that we should not become
:56:21. > :56:27.complacent about how we operate. For me, one of the most enjoyable parts
:56:28. > :56:29.of being a member of parliament is living in Doncaster and going down
:56:30. > :56:33.on the train to the House of Commons and coming back on a Thursday night
:56:34. > :56:37.and being where my constituents are and doing the best I can for them.
:56:38. > :56:40.All right. For me that is about the connection. You said about the
:56:41. > :56:42.political system. We have a system here where, because of the
:56:43. > :56:45.constituency link, you can actually see what the laws in Westminster do
:56:46. > :56:49.to the lives of people in our constituency. If everybody was like
:56:50. > :56:55.you, nobody would be disillusioned? No, I am not saying that, I think
:56:56. > :57:00.it's a positive part of what MPs do, and long should that continue.
:57:01. > :57:04.Everybody is disillusioned with Question Time. So many hands up. You
:57:05. > :57:07.have to be very, very quick. Thank you. I just want to say that I am
:57:08. > :57:12.one of the thousands that is very disillusioned. I've always voted
:57:13. > :57:17.Liberal, exactly Owen, I did feel completely betrayed after the last
:57:18. > :57:21.election. I did selfishly want to live through a coalition but I hoped
:57:22. > :57:25.it would be with Labour, not with the Tory party. I don't know where I
:57:26. > :57:29.would vote exactly now, all I know is I wouldn't vote for the Tories
:57:30. > :57:34.with with the wreck that you are making of our education system.
:57:35. > :57:40.APPLAUSE Anyway. That's dishing it out all
:57:41. > :57:47.round. Our time is up, I'm afraid. Next week, we will be inst Autell in
:57:48. > :57:50.Cornwall, and the week after that, in Boston in Lincolnshire.
:57:51. > :57:57.There is the address which is the best way to do it, frankly. You can
:57:58. > :58:04.telephone: The website just is probably the best
:58:05. > :58:07.way, and there is a form to fill in. If you're on BBC Radio five Live
:58:08. > :58:11.listening to this, the debate goes on on Question Time Extra Time. For
:58:12. > :58:15.us on television, it comes to an end. My thanks to our panel, to the
:58:16. > :58:20.audience here in Liverpool. Thanks for coming until next Thursday in St
:58:21. > :58:25.Austell. From Question Time, good night.