:00:07. > :00:18.Tonight, we are in Boston, in Lincolnshire. Welcome to Question
:00:19. > :00:22.Time. As ever, welcome to our audience at
:00:23. > :00:29.home, to all of you who have come to put the questions, and to our panel.
:00:30. > :00:33.Conservative defence Minister, Anna Soubry, Labour's Shadow Attorney
:00:34. > :00:39.General, Emily Thornberry, the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage, the
:00:40. > :00:45.poet Benjamin Zephaniah, and the Economist has Mac Vicky Pryce,
:00:46. > :00:49.Ridley detained at her Majesty's leisure earlier this year for taking
:00:50. > :01:01.her husband's speeding points, which she has written a book about.
:01:02. > :01:09.Kay Brown has the first question. Have 1000 shipbuilding jobs in
:01:10. > :01:15.Portsmouth been sacrificed to save the United Kingdom? No more Royal
:01:16. > :01:21.Navy ships to be built in Portsmouth. 1000 jobs lost there,
:01:22. > :01:26.over 800 in Scotland. Was it done to save the United Kingdom by keeping
:01:27. > :01:31.Scotland on side, Nigel Farage? To an extent, yes, but if so, it is
:01:32. > :01:36.rather silly. Because if the Scots were to vote to divorce themselves
:01:37. > :01:40.from Westminster next year and our ship building found itself on the
:01:41. > :01:43.Clyde, not in England, through EU procurement rules we would not be
:01:44. > :01:48.allowed to source ships from Scotland. Even if it was done for
:01:49. > :01:52.that reason, it is a mistake. I have to say that I find what has been
:01:53. > :01:56.done to the Royal Navy by the last Labour government but particularly
:01:57. > :02:00.by this coalition, even before the 1000 jobs in Portsmouth were
:02:01. > :02:05.announced to be lost yesterday, Portsmouth had already turned into a
:02:06. > :02:09.museum city. Pray God that the Argentinians do not invade the
:02:10. > :02:13.Falklands, because if they did, we would not even be able to do a
:02:14. > :02:24.single thing about it. The whole thing, in my view, is a crying
:02:25. > :02:29.shame. I don't want you to go on much longer but you did not address
:02:30. > :02:33.the key issue of the motive. Do you believe the motive was commercial,
:02:34. > :02:39.or was it, you can have these ship 's, but if you vote for independence
:02:40. > :02:43.you will lose the contract? I think that was part of it, but whether it
:02:44. > :02:48.will really have a massive effect in the Scottish elections, I do not
:02:49. > :02:53.know. Whether that is the motive or not, it is a massive strategic
:02:54. > :02:57.mistake to take away from this country's premier naval city, that
:02:58. > :03:02.has been building ships for nearly six centuries, the ability to go on
:03:03. > :03:09.doing it. We are now building ships in Korea for the whale may be. What
:03:10. > :03:16.on earth are we thinking about? -- for the Royal Navy. That is simply
:03:17. > :03:25.not true. You said we were building ships for the Royal Navy in career.
:03:26. > :03:29.Supply ship is, yes. The majority, the big ships, costing billions of
:03:30. > :03:36.pounds, we are building in this country. I did not interrupt you.
:03:37. > :03:46.Are we building the supply ships there, or not? Hold on, Anna Soubry,
:03:47. > :03:53.are we having supply ships built in South Korea for the Royal Navy? I do
:03:54. > :04:01.not know. What I do know... Please let me explain. The two huge
:04:02. > :04:06.aircraft carriers that are between them well over ?7 billion, which
:04:07. > :04:09.will be the two largest aircraft carriers are Royal Navy has ever had
:04:10. > :04:17.are being built in this country. And they will have planes on them.
:04:18. > :04:22.Again, you are misleading people. Nigel, you have been on often enough
:04:23. > :04:28.to know that the rules are you do not interrupt all the time, just
:04:29. > :04:32.occasionally. Those planes will be built by 2017, when the aircraft
:04:33. > :04:40.carriers will be doing sea trials. One will go into full operation. The
:04:41. > :04:44.question was about Portsmouth. This day, unfortunately, was always going
:04:45. > :04:47.to come, because we knew that the two big orders had been placed. We
:04:48. > :04:50.knew that as a result of those orders being fulfilled there would
:04:51. > :04:57.be a shortfall in the amount of work until we get the type 26s up and
:04:58. > :05:03.running. And even if we go ahead and commission those, there will still
:05:04. > :05:07.be a shortfall in work. That was always known, unfortunately, when we
:05:08. > :05:09.entered into this agreement, the last government entered into a
:05:10. > :05:16.contract which everybody agreed was dreadful. We have sorted that out,
:05:17. > :05:21.fully to our credit. And we have filled a ?38 billion black hole we
:05:22. > :05:25.inherited from the last government. And far from people running down and
:05:26. > :05:30.criticising our Royal Navy, we should be praising it for the
:05:31. > :05:36.outstanding work that it does. Nobody has been questioning that.
:05:37. > :05:43.Going back to Portsmouth, there will be 11,000 jobs still in Portsmouth
:05:44. > :05:47.supporting our Royal Navy. What happens if Scotland votes for
:05:48. > :05:56.independence, to those contracts? We do not know. Haven't you thought
:05:57. > :06:00.about it? Why don't you know? Am I going to be allowed to finish my
:06:01. > :06:04.sentence? This is important stuff. We take the view that the Scottish
:06:05. > :06:08.people will do the right thing, that they will not vote to leave the
:06:09. > :06:14.United Kingdom. They will remain in the United Kingdom. If that happens,
:06:15. > :06:18.a decision will be made sometime after the referendum, a decision
:06:19. > :06:22.which was always planned to take place after the referendum. There is
:06:23. > :06:32.no connection between the two. The absolutely clear about that. -- be
:06:33. > :06:34.absolutely clear about that. If Scotland voted for independence you
:06:35. > :06:40.would reconsider whether to build warships in Scotland? We will take a
:06:41. > :06:45.decision on the type 26s, as we always planned to do, after the
:06:46. > :06:48.referendum. The referendum is separate to all of this, and
:06:49. > :06:52.separate to yesterday's announcement. Yesterday's
:06:53. > :06:58.announcement was made by BAE Systems on commercial grounds. Why did your
:06:59. > :07:03.boss, Philip Hammond, Defence Secretary, say that the UK has not,
:07:04. > :07:08.except in two world wars, placed orders for complex warships outside
:07:09. > :07:11.the UK. I do not anticipate the UK would wish to do that in future, and
:07:12. > :07:16.I think there is something they're the people in Scotland need to think
:07:17. > :07:24.about very carefully. And the question is? Why did he say that?
:07:25. > :07:29.You would have to ask him but it makes sense to me. He is saying it
:07:30. > :07:37.Scotland votes for independence they will not get the contracts. The
:07:38. > :07:40.decision about the type 26s, my view is that the people of Scotland will
:07:41. > :07:47.make the right decision, which is to stay within the United Kingdom. It
:07:48. > :07:51.sounds on the face of it as if there was a political decision-making,
:07:52. > :07:53.whether we like it or not. However, underneath all that there is a
:07:54. > :07:59.commercial reason why this has happened. Unfortunately Portsmouth
:08:00. > :08:05.has suffered from this. That is that orders are not forthcoming. So there
:08:06. > :08:09.has to be some reorganisation. The greatest issue for me is what
:08:10. > :08:13.happens to defence policy in this country. Is it an indication that we
:08:14. > :08:18.are going downhill? Or is there still a future? Of course we have
:08:19. > :08:21.these big orders coming up. We have the aircraft carriers being built.
:08:22. > :08:28.There will be some planes also that will fit on them, and there will be
:08:29. > :08:31.more stuff being done. But in terms of GDP, our percentage that goes on
:08:32. > :08:36.defence, which is very high at present, fourth in the world after
:08:37. > :08:41.the US, China and Russia, is going to be going down, without doubt,
:08:42. > :08:47.because we are not, in fact, going to be ordering the huge amount of
:08:48. > :08:52.stuff we had been before. We had an upswing during labour. Huge amounts
:08:53. > :08:57.was spent on defence. Do you think it should go down further? Yes, but
:08:58. > :09:04.in line with our obligations in Europe. It should go down regardless
:09:05. > :09:08.of jobs on the Clyde or elsewhere? You can still do an awful lot of
:09:09. > :09:11.supply. What we were hoping for Portsmouth was that we would be
:09:12. > :09:15.doing a lot of work for other countries that are in fact spending
:09:16. > :09:19.quite a lot now refurbishing their own capability, such as, for
:09:20. > :09:22.example, Japan, which is now spending quite a lot, surprisingly,
:09:23. > :09:27.on this. But those are not forthcoming. It was not that we were
:09:28. > :09:30.going to be doing a lot of things for us, but for others. The best
:09:31. > :09:37.thing to do is to do a European initiative. The UK politics of it,
:09:38. > :09:41.do you think the orders were placed on the Clyde to keep Scotland
:09:42. > :09:45.onside? The way it has been expressed, you cannot draw any other
:09:46. > :09:48.conclusion, which is unfortunate. I do not know whether they meant it,
:09:49. > :09:57.but that is certainly what it sounds like to me. It seems to me as if it
:09:58. > :10:07.is political blackmail. That is how it strikes me. In what sense? There
:10:08. > :10:12.is one saying, we will go into the Scottish if they elect to stay in
:10:13. > :10:20.UK. That's about it. You don't think there's a commercial reason for it?
:10:21. > :10:23.No. I understand David Cameron has
:10:24. > :10:27.pledged to make apprenticeships the norm for all school leavers that
:10:28. > :10:31.choose not to go to university. How will closing shipyards in Portsmouth
:10:32. > :10:42.improve the employment prospects for young people?
:10:43. > :10:48.I served in the Navy in the 1970s and 1980s, and we had ten times the
:10:49. > :10:52.amount of warships then. The Conservative government of the day
:10:53. > :10:58.caused the Falklands War. They have done nothing since then but cut our
:10:59. > :11:07.services, not only the Navy but all the services. They have treated us
:11:08. > :11:11.very badly. In the second row. I am surprised, with the reduced size of
:11:12. > :11:15.our Armed Forces, that we require even one shipyard these days. Having
:11:16. > :11:20.done 26 years in the Royal Air Force, the MOD has indicated an
:11:21. > :11:28.ability to spend, but not to spend wisely. Can I bring you back to the
:11:29. > :11:35.point made by the gentleman that this was blackmail of Scotland, this
:11:36. > :11:38.decision? I take what people say that mixed messages have come out of
:11:39. > :11:41.the government in terms of the reasoning behind this, but I think
:11:42. > :11:45.on the face of it it looks like it was a commercial decision they had
:11:46. > :11:50.to make, and they had to decide which yards to go for. And I think
:11:51. > :11:56.it is tragic that Portsmouth has lost its place as building ships for
:11:57. > :12:00.the Navy. As has been said, they have been doing this since the time
:12:01. > :12:05.of Henry VIII. It is tragic that they shipyard needed to close and
:12:06. > :12:08.the decision was made. I think in future, though, with the referendum
:12:09. > :12:13.coming up, it may well be that there will need to be a political decision
:12:14. > :12:19.to be made. We should be clear eyed about that. The UK must not lose its
:12:20. > :12:22.ability to build ships for the Navy. If Scotland becomes independent, I
:12:23. > :12:25.think it is quite likely there will be a political decision made as to
:12:26. > :12:31.whether to go ahead with building those ships in Glasgow. Sorry, can I
:12:32. > :12:36.also say, because I thought this was going to come up and I haven't
:12:37. > :12:40.written on my pad, ?38 million black hole? Can I just say, we are getting
:12:41. > :12:44.this from the Tories all the time. They have been asked to tell us
:12:45. > :12:48.exactly how it adds up, where they get their numbers from, how it
:12:49. > :12:51.figures. There is not one reputable economic organisation that can
:12:52. > :12:57.back-up they say, including the National Audit Office. We asked them
:12:58. > :13:02.to work out what the ?38 million is, and they do not have an answer. The
:13:03. > :13:06.sums do not add up. It is -- it has obviously come out of Lynton
:13:07. > :13:23.Crosby's back pocket, but it does not make any sense. It is not simply
:13:24. > :13:26.that Portsmouth have lost. People in Scotland, I don't think they are
:13:27. > :13:32.celebrating, because people in Scotland have also lost jobs. I
:13:33. > :13:39.think about the workers and their jobs. I do not think about the war
:13:40. > :13:46.machine. Nigel says, what would happen if Argentina invaded. I look
:13:47. > :13:57.at it like this, what would happen if absolute peace broke out? What
:13:58. > :14:01.would happen then? We are so fixated on this thing about war. There are
:14:02. > :14:08.loads of men and women who have skills to build ships and do other
:14:09. > :14:12.things, that I think we should start thinking about a civilian ship
:14:13. > :14:23.making industry here, making ships for people like me, when I retire,
:14:24. > :14:27.to go on a cruise. I am going to move on, because we spend quarter of
:14:28. > :14:31.an hour on that. Just to say, we are moving Question Time next week for
:14:32. > :14:36.reasons that will be apparent to you, from Brighton, just a few
:14:37. > :14:40.miles, to Portsmouth. Details of how to come to the programme are on the
:14:41. > :14:53.bottom of the screen. You can comment on what is being said
:14:54. > :15:01.tonight by text or Twitter. Richard Laight. My family have lived in
:15:02. > :15:04.Boston for nearly 200 years, and we have to fight for services that seem
:15:05. > :15:17.to get handed to newcomers on a plate. How can this be right? It is
:15:18. > :15:23.not right. It is completely unfair and it is wrong. You have the
:15:24. > :15:27.crisis, and I met a recently retired consultant from a hospital earlier.
:15:28. > :15:33.What this town has been through is a population explosion over the course
:15:34. > :15:37.of the last 15 years. That is a direct result of our membership of
:15:38. > :15:42.the European Union. It is astonishing that since 2001 the
:15:43. > :15:49.number of EU nationals living in Boston has increased, officially, by
:15:50. > :15:52.467%. However, that figure is undoubtedly wrong, because that
:15:53. > :15:56.would say there are an extra 10,000 people from Eastern Europe who have
:15:57. > :16:03.moved here. We suspect the figure is nearer 20,000. I think it is
:16:04. > :16:08.important that we conduct this debate along sensible, grown-up
:16:09. > :16:11.lines. This country has always been welcome to people that have come
:16:12. > :16:15.from across the world from different cultures, different religions,
:16:16. > :16:20.people who have claimed refugee status. And we did it since World
:16:21. > :16:25.War II, 30,000 to 50,000 people each year used to come to this country.
:16:26. > :16:28.The figure is now half a million each year, and we see our hospitals,
:16:29. > :16:32.we see primary schools where there are many kids who cannot get into
:16:33. > :16:38.primary schools being sent 20 miles away. We see a benefit system
:16:39. > :16:41.designed primarily for people and families who have paid for
:16:42. > :16:46.generations now being opened up to people who have been here literally
:16:47. > :16:50.for a few. On top of all of this we are about to open the door on
:16:51. > :16:54.January the 1st to the whole of Bulgaria and Romania. It is not
:16:55. > :17:05.right and it is not fair and it is about time we started to put our own
:17:06. > :17:09.people first. The rhetoric is so negative. I work in a college where
:17:10. > :17:14.there are students from different back rounds, and the positives that
:17:15. > :17:20.that brings and the situation where they are prepared for real life
:17:21. > :17:23.where they will work for international businesses, why are we
:17:24. > :17:35.so negative about the fact that our children are spending time with
:17:36. > :17:39.children from other places? I agree with the previous comment,
:17:40. > :17:43.but we also have to look at the latest OECD report, which indicates
:17:44. > :17:56.that migrants have been beneficial to this country, not in a negative
:17:57. > :18:08.way. Mr Farage, please stop scaremongering the majority of
:18:09. > :18:12.people. It doesn't work. You talked about having a grown-up debate.
:18:13. > :18:22.Let's have a grown-up debate with facts. I couldn't agree more. I sat
:18:23. > :18:29.here ten years ago on this panel with David lunk it. As we were about
:18:30. > :18:32.to open the door to eastern Europe in 2004 -- David Blunkett. He said
:18:33. > :18:37.there would be a population increase of 13,000 people per year in this
:18:38. > :18:41.country. I said that was nonsense, because logic said that if you
:18:42. > :18:45.extend to poor people the ability to come to a rich country, they will
:18:46. > :18:53.come in huge numbers. And in the first two years, 800 thousand people
:18:54. > :19:03.came. That, mad, is a fact. -- madam. Mr Farage, that is not backed
:19:04. > :19:09.up by the figures. You are bandying about figures that don't match the
:19:10. > :19:17.OECD report. We are talking about the positive contribution. What
:19:18. > :19:19.about the 1 million young people in Britain who have not got jobs
:19:20. > :19:33.because they are priced out of the market? I am a working taxpayer!
:19:34. > :19:36.People come here to work. They come to Boston to work, and they work in
:19:37. > :19:44.the fields. They pick the vegetables. I am from
:19:45. > :19:48.Nottinghamshire, and I am old enough to remember the days of the migrant
:19:49. > :19:54.workers that would, to the fields and do the jobs. Those days have
:19:55. > :20:04.gone. The real debate is about why there are so many people in our
:20:05. > :20:10.country who choose not to work. I don't like your tone, Mr Farage. You
:20:11. > :20:16.are interrupting again. You talk about facts. In my constituency,
:20:17. > :20:19.your party put out a leaflet saying 29 million people from Romania and
:20:20. > :20:25.Bulgaria were going to flood into our country. Well, the population is
:20:26. > :20:33.only 27.5 million between the two of them! You do not talk facts, you
:20:34. > :20:42.talk prejudice. So everyone can come? Times are tough, we know that.
:20:43. > :20:47.But when times are tough, there is a danger. History tells us that when
:20:48. > :20:51.things are not good, you turn to the stranger and blame them, and that is
:20:52. > :20:55.wrong. I am proud of our country's history, and I am proud that good
:20:56. > :21:08.people come here. Sometimes, not all of them. But they come here to work,
:21:09. > :21:12.which we should welcome. Is it a question of immigration or
:21:13. > :21:18.integration that we have got in this area? There seem to be so many of
:21:19. > :21:21.our foreign friends in our area, but they live separately. As a nation,
:21:22. > :21:27.we don't embrace them and ask them to join in what we are doing, and
:21:28. > :21:30.they don't ask us to join in with what they do. Having lived abroad
:21:31. > :21:34.for five years and lived in a country where when I went there, I
:21:35. > :21:41.did not speak the language properly, I had my eldest child in a country
:21:42. > :21:54.that I don't speak the language, I can see how they are intimidated by
:21:55. > :21:58.us and people like Mr Farage. I think immigration, managed properly,
:21:59. > :22:03.has huge benefits for this country. This week, we saw a report from
:22:04. > :22:07.University College London saying that immigrants in the last ten
:22:08. > :22:13.years from the EU have paid 34% more in taxes than they have received in
:22:14. > :22:18.benefits. There was an overall benefit for our country, but it does
:22:19. > :22:22.need to be properly managed, and it does seem that mistakes have been
:22:23. > :22:26.made. People get anxious about that. You are right, ten years ago, Labour
:22:27. > :22:31.made a mistake. We did not put in the controls we should have done for
:22:32. > :22:35.the new accession countries. We have learned from that, and we should
:22:36. > :22:45.make sure we put controls in again. We have made mistakes, and people
:22:46. > :22:52.get anxious about that. They see people, and they believe they are
:22:53. > :22:56.being exploited. They see them not being paid properly, they see
:22:57. > :23:02.multi-occupancy, where a house will have eight people in it. They see
:23:03. > :23:05.people having to pay gang masters, they see it not being properly
:23:06. > :23:10.controlled and they see themselves being undercut and people having to
:23:11. > :23:14.work in unsafe conditions which no one else would agree to do. People
:23:15. > :23:19.should be paid a decent wage. They should not be exploited. It should
:23:20. > :23:23.not have to pay these sorts of rents, and there needs to be some
:23:24. > :23:27.control over that. That is right, and we should not allow this to
:23:28. > :23:34.continue. This is the sort of management we need. You speak of
:23:35. > :23:39.management, and I agree with you. I want is to have a sensible
:23:40. > :23:47.immigration policy. I don't want is to have an open door to 29 million
:23:48. > :23:52.people. Given that you want managed immigration, would you agree that it
:23:53. > :23:56.is irresponsible, on the 1st of January next year, to say to 29
:23:57. > :24:06.million people, as many of you that want to come, can? You want to do
:24:07. > :24:15.this race to the bottom. I have got a note here of your policy. When it
:24:16. > :24:20.comes to people's writes for work, you want to get rid of maternity
:24:21. > :24:25.leave, sickness leave. You want to make sure migrants are not allowed
:24:26. > :24:28.to come into the country, and people here have to work in the same
:24:29. > :24:39.conditions that those migrants were in. Don't all talk at once. Nobody
:24:40. > :24:43.can hear what you are saying. I want to hear from members of the
:24:44. > :24:46.audience. We have had a lot of opposition to the things Nigel
:24:47. > :24:49.Farage is saying. I want to hear from people who perhaps agree, and
:24:50. > :25:00.then we will have a debate about it. I live near Mansfield, and we do
:25:01. > :25:07.have an awful lot of Eastern European is in our area. No
:25:08. > :25:11.disrespect to them half the time, but my children can't get housing.
:25:12. > :25:17.If you want to have managed immigration, shouldn't you first of
:25:18. > :25:21.all have a decent infrastructure? Shouldn't our children or their
:25:22. > :25:28.children be able to speak the English language first, and have our
:25:29. > :25:32.primary schools teach English, not Polish and all these other languages
:25:33. > :25:38.first? By all means have them coming, but have the infrastructure
:25:39. > :25:53.there so that we have jobs for our children. To cover what has been
:25:54. > :25:56.discussed, first of all, in my view, I will get back to your
:25:57. > :26:04.question about housing and so on, I think it was a mistake by the Labour
:26:05. > :26:10.government to let the Poles and others coming. The forecasts were
:26:11. > :26:14.made on the assumption that the other countries were going to open
:26:15. > :26:17.up, and they didn't. So instead of going to Germany, where the Poles
:26:18. > :26:25.would have gone, they came here because we opened up. Of course, it
:26:26. > :26:28.has caused social tensions. During the period of substantial migration
:26:29. > :26:34.from those countries, we had one of the fastest growth rates of any
:26:35. > :26:39.country in Europe. It was beneficial in many ways. Of course, we don't
:26:40. > :26:43.have enough housing. Over the last decade, housing construction has
:26:44. > :26:48.declined substantially for whatever political reasons of the time. There
:26:49. > :26:54.were huge cut tax in that area. No audible housing has been built in
:26:55. > :27:00.this country to meet the needs of people in Boston or anywhere else.
:27:01. > :27:03.It is not just the fact that they are coming here and have special
:27:04. > :27:15.freedoms, we simply have failed everybody who needs affordable
:27:16. > :27:20.housing. Now, in terms of the scaremongering we are hearing, we
:27:21. > :27:22.will not get 29 million. I agree that that figure is an
:27:23. > :27:30.exaggeration, because the other countries are opening up. So the
:27:31. > :27:33.Bulgarians, mostly, go to Germany and Austria. The Romanians mostly go
:27:34. > :27:38.to France and Italy cos of the languages. That is what will happen.
:27:39. > :27:44.We will get a certain percentage, but nothing like what Nigel Farage
:27:45. > :27:50.is worried about. And we should welcome that. There are 2 million
:27:51. > :27:51.Brits who live abroad in Europe. If we want to start putting in
:27:52. > :28:02.controls... As a foreigner, I lived in England
:28:03. > :28:07.for quite a long time. Since I moved to Boston two years ago, integration
:28:08. > :28:11.worries me. I work with people in places where they do not want to
:28:12. > :28:14.speak English. You talk to them in English, and they answer in their
:28:15. > :28:18.own languages. They don't want to learn. You try to explain things,
:28:19. > :28:22.and they talk to you again in their language. The kids in Boston are
:28:23. > :28:27.suffering with these languages, because my son is only 11 and he has
:28:28. > :28:32.started swearing in Russian. As I am a foreigner, I tried to teach them
:28:33. > :28:35.the things of England. They are going to good schools and trying to
:28:36. > :28:43.study everything in the proper way. But unfortunately, there is a lot of
:28:44. > :28:48.effects on integration, which does not exist. I agree with Nigel,
:28:49. > :28:53.despite being a foreigner. That is all right! It is the system of
:28:54. > :29:04.benefits. Most of them come here and start claiming for kids that do not
:29:05. > :29:07.exist. They want to claim and get benefits. They have said, there is a
:29:08. > :29:11.lot of money in England, I am going to take as much as I can. I have
:29:12. > :29:16.been working all the time I have in here and I have worked hard, but
:29:17. > :29:18.integration is a big problem and the government has to make it clear to
:29:19. > :29:31.people when they come to England, otherwise we will lose the identity
:29:32. > :29:40.of the British way. Be careful, my friend. It is not most of them. It
:29:41. > :29:45.could never be most of them. My father is from Barbados, my mother
:29:46. > :29:49.from Jamaica. I was born in Birmingham. When I moved into this
:29:50. > :29:55.area, I remember coming to Boston and standing by the church. When you
:29:56. > :29:57.are a black person in Britain and you start to travel, people argue
:29:58. > :30:03.that it you get a culture clash when you go to Jamaica. Did you have a
:30:04. > :30:09.cultural experience, some kind of culture shock? Or when you go to
:30:10. > :30:11.Africa? When I came to Boston and I stood in the town centre near the
:30:12. > :30:17.church, I remember standing there and looking and seeing all these
:30:18. > :30:26.people that to me looked white, but I didn't hear any English. And I
:30:27. > :30:31.remember standing there, thinking, what is this? Now, I am not saying
:30:32. > :30:35.this negatively. I started to think about this and I started to
:30:36. > :30:38.understand about migration. I ended up making two television programmes
:30:39. > :30:44.about it. A lot of the things that people say about the houses and
:30:45. > :30:48.services are real myths. We have had about three enquiries into them. For
:30:49. > :30:56.example, one year, a lot of local people said crime had gone up. It
:30:57. > :31:01.had actually decreased by 2%. The Pilgrim Hospital said that if it was
:31:02. > :31:09.not for the migrants, they would probably have closed their maternity
:31:10. > :31:12.ward. Imagine if you had to have a baby and you had to go to Lincoln or
:31:13. > :31:17.Peter Brooke. You would then really big complaining -- Peterborough.
:31:18. > :31:21.When I made the film, a farmer took me to one side and said to me,
:31:22. > :31:27.Benjamin, I used to be a good old-fashioned racist. He was honest.
:31:28. > :31:33.He said, I would never talk to black people or foreigners. But I tried to
:31:34. > :31:37.get local people to work on my land, and he couldn't. He said he
:31:38. > :31:43.couldn't even get his own family to work on his land. And he would
:31:44. > :31:50.prefer to employ local people, but he couldn't. I understand the
:31:51. > :31:56.problem with integration, but there are very few foreigners, very few
:31:57. > :32:00.Eastern European 's now that do not get involved in the political and
:32:01. > :32:04.cultural life of the area. When my parents came to the Caribbean, they
:32:05. > :32:08.settled in Austen and Handsworth, and they did not go anywhere else.
:32:09. > :32:13.They didn't integrate either. It takes a bit of time for you to get
:32:14. > :32:16.confidence. It takes time to settle and have financial freedom to move
:32:17. > :32:32.on. The panel talk about scapegoating
:32:33. > :32:36.and anxiety, at my anxiety for the migrants is a reality. Now, two
:32:37. > :32:40.weeks for eight Doctor's appointment, four and a half hours
:32:41. > :32:49.in Accident Emergency waiting to be seen. But you get that all over
:32:50. > :32:52.the country. We know there are particular difficulties when it
:32:53. > :32:57.comes to funding in Boston, and I know that the local schools, for
:32:58. > :33:00.example, make a very good case that because so many children do not have
:33:01. > :33:06.English as their first language, they actually need more money. The
:33:07. > :33:12.government has given them a large amount of money. 88% of parents get
:33:13. > :33:18.their first choice school. I wish in my burrow they had 88% of parents
:33:19. > :33:20.getting their first choice. We know there are problems with funding for
:33:21. > :33:28.local authorities and that has been taken up by the local MP. But I
:33:29. > :33:30.would also say, yes, we do have to control immigration and manage
:33:31. > :33:33.things properly, and we do have to make sure that when people come
:33:34. > :33:42.here, frankly, they do not take the make. They do not exploit our
:33:43. > :33:48.system. How do you manage it with an open border? Vicki made that
:33:49. > :33:51.argument very well. You are putting fear into it when people do not need
:33:52. > :34:01.to have that fear. They really do not. It is not them and us. It is
:34:02. > :34:06.about immigrant -- integration. Integration takes time. The town
:34:07. > :34:10.needs money. We are waiting too long for appointments. But the other
:34:11. > :34:14.thing is, as a counsellor, I am finding some of the youngsters that
:34:15. > :34:18.come, eastern European is coming to the college where I work, I am
:34:19. > :34:21.having lots of problems with them with anxiety, because when they come
:34:22. > :34:26.to this country, their parents do not speak English. They go to school
:34:27. > :34:29.to learn English and they end up feeling with the council, the gas
:34:30. > :34:34.board, the telephone people. They become the adults within the house.
:34:35. > :34:37.When they get their teenage years, they are having problems with panic
:34:38. > :34:41.attacks and anxiety and they have their childhood. The government
:34:42. > :34:45.should be looking at what happens and we have immigrants coming in.
:34:46. > :34:49.There's nothing wrong with it. We need them, we want them and they
:34:50. > :34:55.integrate well. We have too many in Boston because we cannot cope. The
:34:56. > :35:08.cannot cope. Doctors, hospitals, schools cannot cope. The man up
:35:09. > :35:16.there on the right, the far right. The original question I mentioned
:35:17. > :35:23.newcomers. Immediately, Nigel Farage assumed that to mean Eastern
:35:24. > :35:33.European is. My wife and myself are newcomers, but we come from
:35:34. > :35:39.Northamptonshire. We are also using the local doctor. And we also have
:35:40. > :35:47.to wait. But we are not blaming the Eastern Europeans because we have to
:35:48. > :35:55.wait. Hopefully from Northampton you have integrated fairly quickly here.
:35:56. > :36:00.It is no different. The figures show that the population of EU migrants
:36:01. > :36:06.in Boston has risen by 500% since 2001, and that is an underestimate.
:36:07. > :36:14.That figure holds. That was pressure on schools, hospitals and local
:36:15. > :36:20.services. That is a fact. It's because it is a nice place to live.
:36:21. > :36:24.There is a problem with immigrants taking seasonal jobs, but they must
:36:25. > :36:29.come on a one-way ticket because there are not many people going back
:36:30. > :36:37.after the jobs have finished. Is the work still largely seasonal? It is
:36:38. > :36:45.round here. Has it not spread to the 12 months? Not on farms and things.
:36:46. > :36:49.It does unfortunately make sense, and I am sure you are right, because
:36:50. > :36:53.going back home does not give them the jobs they would like to have,
:36:54. > :36:57.because Europe has been in a bit of a mess and crisis. We have certainly
:36:58. > :37:02.seen lots of people come who would have normally gone back, either
:37:03. > :37:06.seasonally, or pretty quickly after they made money, because their
:37:07. > :37:11.economies were doing reasonably well. But that has stopped for a
:37:12. > :37:16.while. Hopefully you might see lots of people leaving if the Polish
:37:17. > :37:21.economy does as well as it has done recently. So it may happen.
:37:22. > :37:25.Unfortunately, we have been hit, which is why there is so much
:37:26. > :37:30.negative sentiment about it the fact that Europe has done so poorly
:37:31. > :37:35.economically. I have one case study to tell you and why we need to worry
:37:36. > :37:39.about what Nigel is saying. I am Greek myself and I came here to
:37:40. > :37:43.study and I stayed. What has been going on in Greece is that it has
:37:44. > :37:48.become the entry point for all of the immigrants trying to coming to
:37:49. > :37:52.Europe. And the population has increased exponentially. It is
:37:53. > :37:55.extraordinary. What we have there is a strange system where the
:37:56. > :37:58.Constitution says everyone has to go, the kids have to go to Greek
:37:59. > :38:04.schools, so they have to learn Greek. Within a couple of years,
:38:05. > :38:08.they are Greek. They have a problem that the kids then take over. They
:38:09. > :38:12.are Greek and the parents had to adjust. What has happened is that
:38:13. > :38:16.the nationalistic tendencies have increased hugely, and we ended up
:38:17. > :38:21.with a party which took right a lot of seats in government which has now
:38:22. > :38:26.had its leaders arrested because they were inciting violence against
:38:27. > :38:30.immigrants. That has become a serious issue in Europe, not just in
:38:31. > :38:34.Greece. We need to watch that we do not end up in the same situation of
:38:35. > :38:44.blaming the foreigners for whatever it is that maybe wrong with our own
:38:45. > :38:51.economy. I just want to remind people, you people here know that
:38:52. > :38:53.400 years ago people left from this Boston and they migrated to the
:38:54. > :38:58.United States of America to form another Boston. Nigel, you should go
:38:59. > :39:02.on a programme called who do you think you are, because I am sure you
:39:03. > :39:13.would find you have migrants in your family. Actually, Benjamin, what is
:39:14. > :39:16.interesting about this debate is that everybody around this table
:39:17. > :39:20.says we should have a managed migration policy into this country,
:39:21. > :39:24.which I completely agree with. But the elephant in the room, and what
:39:25. > :39:28.the three parties will not talk about, is the fact that if you are a
:39:29. > :39:31.member of the European Union which has now admitted very poor
:39:32. > :39:36.countries, you have no management at all. There are no restrictions on
:39:37. > :39:41.the number of people coming to Britain next year from Romania and
:39:42. > :39:51.Bulgaria, and that is irresponsible, stupid and against the interests of
:39:52. > :40:01.our own people in this country. I still think you are a migrant.
:40:02. > :40:04.Undoubtedly. I go back to what the lady said about our youths not
:40:05. > :40:09.wanting to work and not wanting these jobs. Is it a coincidence that
:40:10. > :40:18.since 2004, youth unemployment has doubled? Is it coincidence? I think
:40:19. > :40:22.in terms of youngsters, all local jobs should be advertised in the job
:40:23. > :40:30.centre. I do not think all of them are. 800,000 jobs were not
:40:31. > :40:36.advertised in this country, only abroad. Yes, and I think they should
:40:37. > :40:40.be advertised in job centres here. If people want to advertise
:40:41. > :40:44.elsewhere, that is fine. You might then get a break-up of the
:40:45. > :40:47.workforce, as opposed to there being an advert somewhere else and people
:40:48. > :40:50.coming over, which I don't think is right. The future is with the
:40:51. > :40:55.youngsters and what people have been saying about schools is important.
:40:56. > :41:00.In my part of inner London we have people from all over the world come
:41:01. > :41:03.to my area. Many of the mothers do not speak English. We started
:41:04. > :41:07.teaching English as a second language attached to the school, so
:41:08. > :41:12.the mothers will come in with the kids. The kids have no problem
:41:13. > :41:15.learning English. There was a boy arrived from South Korea and in six
:41:16. > :41:19.months he was speaking fluently, but his mother was a different matter.
:41:20. > :41:23.The school set up classes attached to the school, because the mums
:41:24. > :41:27.wanted to be able to talk to the teachers and that was their
:41:28. > :41:35.motivation. In that way, we can work towards integration. But the key to
:41:36. > :41:38.this is youngsters. Why did Labour, according to Peter Mandelson, send
:41:39. > :41:50.out search parties for people to come to this country to work in
:41:51. > :41:56.2004? I think the point was that at a time of a booming economy, not all
:41:57. > :42:01.the vacancies could be filled. So we looked around. As I started off,
:42:02. > :42:05.managed migration can be a huge benefit to a country. And please do
:42:06. > :42:08.not forget, we have in talking about the National Health Service, and it
:42:09. > :42:15.would be nowhere without people coming to this country and working
:42:16. > :42:26.in the national health service. Paul Tuplin, please. With a suspected
:42:27. > :42:30.terrorist successfully evading the police this week by wearing a
:42:31. > :42:38.burka, is there now a clear case for banning the burka? This has been
:42:39. > :42:43.causing some trouble to the Home Secretary, and we will hear from
:42:44. > :42:47.Anna Soubry in a moment. This is Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed, 27, who was
:42:48. > :42:53.in a mosque and then was curiously, he put on a burka and was then
:42:54. > :42:56.spotted by CCTV leaving in a burka, which I thought would be no disguise
:42:57. > :43:03.at all, because how would they know it was him? Apparently they did.
:43:04. > :43:08.Vicky Pryce, is there a case for banning the burka? I think there
:43:09. > :43:14.should be freedom for people to wear what they like. So we should look at
:43:15. > :43:18.the two things separately. Whether someone disguise themselves by
:43:19. > :43:22.throwing a sheet over their heads and are able to disappear is nothing
:43:23. > :43:27.to do with whether we approve of women wearing the burka, so let's
:43:28. > :43:31.agree with that. But in theory, people should be free to choose and
:43:32. > :43:36.look the way they like, and cover themselves if they want to. My worry
:43:37. > :43:41.is that a lot of the decisions to wear what ever it is, perhaps your
:43:42. > :43:48.religion or your family think is appropriate, they may be made either
:43:49. > :43:51.under duress, or the girls are already indoctrinated enough to
:43:52. > :43:59.believe this is what they should do, and in the end they may not have
:44:00. > :44:04.a choice. Because of that, I think the burka is a bad thing. I am not
:44:05. > :44:07.sure it should be banned, but certainly it should be discouraged
:44:08. > :44:13.as much as possible, because women should be able to be, like any other
:44:14. > :44:18.member of the community, engage in any other activity. I was shocked.
:44:19. > :44:22.Strangely enough, I was about to do a fringe event at the Conservative
:44:23. > :44:27.Party conference, and I was in some hotel and I saw this lady wearing a
:44:28. > :44:36.full garment, with her children, trying to eat and egg. I did not
:44:37. > :44:42.know how they do it, really. She was lifting her veil and eating it. And
:44:43. > :44:46.I felt so sorry for her at the time. I thought, surely, no one in their
:44:47. > :44:52.right mind could make a decision to wander around completely covered
:44:53. > :44:58.up. So my view is, if we can manage to reduce it as much as we possibly
:44:59. > :45:03.can, but I would not ban it, no. Anna Soubry, your hero, Kenneth
:45:04. > :45:07.Clarke, said this week that it is a most peculiar costume for people to
:45:08. > :45:15.adopt, a kind of pie. Is that your view? -- a kind of bag. He was
:45:16. > :45:19.talking about whether people should be allowed to wear it in court, and
:45:20. > :45:24.he is right, you should not be allowed to give evidence if your
:45:25. > :45:28.face is covered. I am absolutely with Vicky Pryce, I would not ban
:45:29. > :45:32.the burka to be worn around the streets. I am an old feminist. I
:45:33. > :45:39.wish people did not do it. I wish women did not feel the need to cover
:45:40. > :45:45.their faces with veils. But I would not deny them the right of doing it.
:45:46. > :45:51.But as Vicky Pryce says, I think we have to look at why some women do
:45:52. > :45:53.it. I accept that there are some women who subscribe to Islam who do
:45:54. > :45:58.it saying that they are feminists and they do it from free choice and
:45:59. > :46:10.so on and so forth. I find it a peculiar concept, but I would not
:46:11. > :46:14.and it. I agree with the women. We should
:46:15. > :46:18.have freedom of expression and religion in this country. However,
:46:19. > :46:24.we should recognise that there are certain occupations where the burka
:46:25. > :46:30.in inhibits the interaction between the caregiver and do care receiver,
:46:31. > :46:42.such as a teacher, nurse or doctor. I would not like it for those
:46:43. > :46:49.situations. The woman behind you? Oh, the man. The woman. There is a
:46:50. > :46:55.differentiation between the full face covering burka and wearing a
:46:56. > :46:58.headscarf. Is it not more of a cultural issue than a religious
:46:59. > :47:04.issue? If we are a society that accepts the
:47:05. > :47:08.wearing of the burka in the UK, I appreciate that we are a
:47:09. > :47:12.multinational country, our western women similarly welcomed wearing
:47:13. > :47:19.their choice of clothing in strongly Muslim countries? Not, I think.
:47:20. > :47:26.Nigel Farage, the French have banned the burka. And the Belgians. I don't
:47:27. > :47:30.know how successfully. UKIP started this debate for years ago. We talked
:47:31. > :47:34.about whether the burka was appropriate, and we received abuse
:47:35. > :47:41.from all sides. Now the argument is changing. The important thing here
:47:42. > :47:44.is that in this country, wherever you come from, whatever your
:47:45. > :47:52.religion, we have to have equality before the law. That means that if
:47:53. > :47:59.we can't wear grey -- a crash helmet walking into a bank, then a burka
:48:00. > :48:02.should not be allowed in a bank. And the same goes for airport security
:48:03. > :48:11.or getting on the London Underground. Travelling on the
:48:12. > :48:14.underground 's if I donned a balaclava and went around on the
:48:15. > :48:22.Circle line all day, it would not be long before I got a call from the
:48:23. > :48:27.police, worried about who I was. So let's have equality before the law.
:48:28. > :48:31.I would not say we should and wearing the burka and walking down
:48:32. > :48:43.the high street. I am sure there are all sorts of unusual clothes that
:48:44. > :48:49.are worn on Boston high street. Don't forget, one of the bombers
:48:50. > :48:59.from 7/7 escaped wearing a burka. But not on a bus? Can you clarify
:49:00. > :49:04.UKIP policy on this? Equality before the law. We do not wish to see the
:49:05. > :49:07.burka being worn in places where the rest of us would not be allowed to
:49:08. > :49:16.cover our heads or faces. Simple as that. Emily Thornberry, you are
:49:17. > :49:22.shadow attorney general. Equality before the law, is that right? I
:49:23. > :49:26.certainly think that in court, witnesses and defendants should not
:49:27. > :49:29.cover their face. It is important that juries get an opportunity to
:49:30. > :49:34.assess people, and they can't do that if their face is covered. The
:49:35. > :49:41.lady at the back said certain carers, it is important for that as
:49:42. > :49:43.well. I agree, I would not want my four-year-old or my elderly mother
:49:44. > :49:48.being looked after by somebody wearing a burka. They need to show
:49:49. > :49:51.their face. I would not mind if they work in records in the hospital.
:49:52. > :49:56.They could wear whatever they like in those circumstances. But the
:49:57. > :50:03.question begins with the idea that there is a man who escaped wearing a
:50:04. > :50:09.burka, so should we ban the burka? A few weeks ago, somebody underage
:50:10. > :50:18.TPIM escaped in a taxi. Should we now banned taxis? Benjamin
:50:19. > :50:26.Zephaniah. This is a keystone cops moment. Police officers used to
:50:27. > :50:30.chase kids playing truant. One of them got me one day and put me in
:50:31. > :50:35.the back-seat of car, and I went through the other door. He jumped in
:50:36. > :50:40.the car and drove off without me! It reminded me of that moment. Look,
:50:41. > :50:47.there is nowhere in the Koran where it is a woman has to wear a burka.
:50:48. > :50:54.I had a secretary that used to wear a burka. She did not wear it until
:50:55. > :50:57.she went on the Underground. She was sitting on the underground and
:50:58. > :51:01.somebody said to her, you look suspicious, can I look in your bag?
:51:02. > :51:07.She said, I am a student, why do you want to look in my bag? You make me
:51:08. > :51:11.nervous, they said. The whole carriage turned against this young
:51:12. > :51:18.girl. She came to my office that day. I took her home, and she became
:51:19. > :51:23.politicised. She said, if you can't accept me like I am, I am going to
:51:24. > :51:29.go back to my shell. I believe that if you are in court, there should be
:51:30. > :51:35.some kind of compromise where you can give evidence in private and
:51:36. > :51:40.show your face. But the main thing I would say to the Islamic community
:51:41. > :51:44.is, look. Women wear veils because they say they don't want to be seen
:51:45. > :51:52.as sexual objects. Who are you being seen as sexual objects by? Men. So
:51:53. > :52:00.the problem is with men. We have got five minutes. Mark Finney has a
:52:01. > :52:10.question. I would like some brief answers to this, but it is topical.
:52:11. > :52:16.Is the possibility of somebody snooping on our personal e-mails a
:52:17. > :52:19.small price to pay our security? We had the three heads of security
:52:20. > :52:23.services before the House of Commons today. Is it a small price to pay to
:52:24. > :52:31.have them snooping on us, Emily Thornbury? It is a really difficult
:52:32. > :52:35.balance to get. It is our first duty as politicians to make sure the
:52:36. > :52:38.citizens are safe. But we also have a duty to ensure that our
:52:39. > :52:42.fundamental rights are not encroached on unless there is a
:52:43. > :52:46.really good reason. I don't see why there is a good reason for the
:52:47. > :52:53.security people to be able to browse people's females. They need a strong
:52:54. > :52:57.reason to look at people's e-mails. There was a certain amount of
:52:58. > :53:00.evidence that can be gathered by looking at simply who has contacted
:53:01. > :53:05.who, and when. That is a different issue. But looking at the content of
:53:06. > :53:08.any mail, you need to get a court order or permission from someone
:53:09. > :53:14.else. They should not be allowed access. The checks and balances we
:53:15. > :53:25.have on our security services at the moment need to be looked at again.
:53:26. > :53:30.Benjamin Zephaniah? Please be brief. You always want me to be brief! I
:53:31. > :53:34.would like you to go on for ever! Our adversaries are rubbing their
:53:35. > :53:38.hands with glee, that is what they said about the leaks from Edward
:53:39. > :53:44.Snowden in the committee today. Do you agree? No. I hate the idea of
:53:45. > :53:52.people looking at my e-mails, snooping on me. This has all come
:53:53. > :53:57.because of the Snowdon thing. When children are in school, we keep
:53:58. > :54:01.telling them to tell the truth. If they see something that is wrong and
:54:02. > :54:07.corrupt man they see people in power abusing power, tell the truth. The
:54:08. > :54:09.National Health Service has had whistle-blowers lately,
:54:10. > :54:13.whistle-blowers who have asked their jobs and are suffering because of
:54:14. > :54:21.it. And we punish them for telling the truth. So what are we saying?
:54:22. > :54:27.That people who are powerful, they don't tell the truth? It is
:54:28. > :54:30.important that we acknowledge exactly what our security services
:54:31. > :54:37.are doing. If they are going to snoop on us, they should have orders
:54:38. > :54:45.from higher up in government. A lot of the investigations they have
:54:46. > :54:52.done, how many, 34... Most of them come to nothing. So I am completely
:54:53. > :55:00.against it. They should not be snooping on us. I largely agree. It
:55:01. > :55:03.is a question of checks and balances. It is difficult, because
:55:04. > :55:08.it is the duty of every government to make sure all citizens are safe,
:55:09. > :55:12.and sometimes that means there are an on civil liberties and privacy.
:55:13. > :55:17.But if the right checks and balances are put in place, whether it is
:55:18. > :55:25.orders obtained by judges or some form of judicial oversight and
:55:26. > :55:29.appeal to two judges, I think we can get the right checks and balances.
:55:30. > :55:33.But it is difficult, because the overriding duty of us all must read
:55:34. > :55:37.to make sure we are safe, and sometimes that means we have to
:55:38. > :55:41.encroach on people's privacy. That is too high a price to pay, and that
:55:42. > :55:46.has been reflected in the shock we have all had. Look at what is going
:55:47. > :55:50.on in Germany. Why are people adding Angela Merkel's phone? It has gone
:55:51. > :55:55.crazy and we have had no checks and balances. It has gone too far, and
:55:56. > :56:07.bringing it back will be very hard to do. We have to be much tougher
:56:08. > :56:11.about what goes on. It is not very nice in snoop on, but it is better
:56:12. > :56:20.than being blown up and other people getting blown up. Which
:56:21. > :56:24.unfortunately now is a reality. I hate the Button, I hate the thought
:56:25. > :56:27.of being snooped on, but you know what? There are billions of e-mails
:56:28. > :56:31.and texts being sent every day, and they have not got the facility to
:56:32. > :56:36.snoop on all of us. They are not looking for you, they are not
:56:37. > :56:42.worried about any of you. They might want to monitor 12 of the panel.
:56:43. > :56:46.That really, I take the view of the last contributor, that we do face
:56:47. > :56:49.serious threats. Benjamin, one of the reasons why 34 potential
:56:50. > :56:54.terrorist attacks in this country have thwarted is that they have been
:56:55. > :56:58.able to get on top of it before time . We face tremendous threats in this
:56:59. > :57:12.modern world, and I think we need to have some faith in our security
:57:13. > :57:16.services. Our hour is up with those fateful words. Sorry to those who
:57:17. > :57:19.have not been able to get in. Some members of the panel spoke longer
:57:20. > :57:23.than they were allowed. We will be in Portsmouth next week. We will
:57:24. > :57:27.have Ed Davey for the lip of the cats, former Chancellor of the
:57:28. > :57:31.Exchequer Nigel Lawson and Stella Creasy for Labour on the panel among
:57:32. > :57:35.others. The week after that, we will be in Salford, in Greater
:57:36. > :57:39.Manchester. This is a rather curious programme. It has divided the
:57:40. > :57:45.audience between people who are 30 or under, and 60 or over. You get
:57:46. > :57:50.the idea. It is a kind of crude generation gap.
:57:51. > :57:58.We will be seeing what their views are on the education, housing, the
:57:59. > :58:03.economy and all those things. If you want to come to Portsmouth next
:58:04. > :58:12.week, you can be any age. Or Salford, if you are under 30 or over
:58:13. > :58:16.60, go to our website or call us. If you listening to this on Radio 5
:58:17. > :58:22.Live, you can continue the debate. Here, we have to shut up . My thanks
:58:23. > :58:26.to our panel and everybody who came here to take part. From Austen, in
:58:27. > :58:30.Lincolnshire, good night. -- from Austen.