:00:00. > :00:19.Tonight, we are in Salford, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:20. > :00:25.And welcome to our audience tonight, who are from different
:00:26. > :00:28.generations. One half under 30, and one half over 60. And welcome to the
:00:29. > :00:34.panel, Conservative Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, Labour's
:00:35. > :00:38.Shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, Liberal Democrat Olly Grender,
:00:39. > :00:48.adviser Tony Clegg until last year and is now in the House of Lords. --
:00:49. > :00:54.adviser to the Clague. -- Nick Clegg.
:00:55. > :00:59.You may have noticed only three panellists, because sad to say how
:01:00. > :01:04.two other panellists who we had asked to come, Daily Telegraph
:01:05. > :01:09.writer Tim Stanley and broadcaster Joan Bakewell, were held up on a
:01:10. > :01:14.train by a fire at the side of the track. They came halfway and then
:01:15. > :01:21.went back, lost for ever, I suspect. When they turn up, we will have them
:01:22. > :01:26.on. They will not be here tonight. Let's go to our first question. We
:01:27. > :01:30.get a lot of questions about the divide between the generations and
:01:31. > :01:34.the idea behind this programme is to explore those questions, and other
:01:35. > :01:41.things, in terms of these two generations, under 30 and over 60.
:01:42. > :01:44.The first from Anthony Robinson. Would the money spent on universal
:01:45. > :01:55.benefits for wealthy pensioners be better used to help young people?
:01:56. > :02:00.These are that list - free television licences, went a few, bus
:02:01. > :02:08.passes, I test is, even being exempt from the under occupancy charge, the
:02:09. > :02:14.bedroom tax. Olly Grender. I think, Anthony, yes, on the whole, they
:02:15. > :02:18.should. Where I think it gets difficult is that we work on an
:02:19. > :02:22.assumption that you all look very young and sprightly on this side of
:02:23. > :02:29.the audience, and we work on an assumption that you are baby
:02:30. > :02:37.boomers, and therefore reaping the rewards of a post-war era. This lot
:02:38. > :02:46.here? They look very healthy? They look very healthy to me. And so I
:02:47. > :02:53.think what we need to stop doing is to stop thinking of you as a
:02:54. > :02:57.homogenous group. There was a recent report in the place I have just
:02:58. > :03:03.become a member of, the House of Lords, which says that age is no
:03:04. > :03:07.longer an indicator of need. For instance, you might be quite a
:03:08. > :03:15.wealthy pensioner, or have a fewer assets, in terms of property, but be
:03:16. > :03:24.quite lonely. Or you might have property, but be pretty poor in
:03:25. > :03:29.terms of fuel poverty. Are you saying you cannot work out who to
:03:30. > :03:32.give benefits to? My preference would be that wealthy pensioners do
:03:33. > :03:37.give up bus passes. I would like to see that happen. But what I am
:03:38. > :03:43.saying is that I think it is much harder than people assume to say,
:03:44. > :03:49.you are all in this huge lump of quite wealthy. I do not think you
:03:50. > :03:52.are. Jeremy Hunt, do you think you can define who are wealthy among
:03:53. > :03:58.pensioners and then say, you do not need the money so we will give it to
:03:59. > :04:01.that lot? You can do it, but the reason we are not doing it is
:04:02. > :04:04.straightforward. David Cameron promised before the last election
:04:05. > :04:10.that he would protect pension benefits. He is someone who believes
:04:11. > :04:18.he must keep his word. Was it a wise promise and does it last until the
:04:19. > :04:24.next election? Absolutely. And after, if you win it? He believes it
:04:25. > :04:27.was right for the simple reason that we started the parliament with a
:04:28. > :04:32.huge deficit to tackle and big decisions to take us to the fairest
:04:33. > :04:36.way to tackle the deficit. We decided pensioners were different,
:04:37. > :04:39.because they had passed the point in their life where they are able to
:04:40. > :04:43.earn more money to make up for any shortfalls, so we should -- thought
:04:44. > :04:48.it was right to make that decision. The worry is that if you start
:04:49. > :04:52.chipping away at some entitlements, others may follow. We have been true
:04:53. > :04:56.to our word, kept our promise on protecting the state pension and
:04:57. > :04:59.pension benefits. In a very difficult period, that shows our
:05:00. > :05:05.commitment to the people who would find it otherwise most difficult to
:05:06. > :05:10.make up for their earnings. I have to admit, I am quite confused why we
:05:11. > :05:15.constantly seem to be coming back to this question of whether these
:05:16. > :05:21.benefits should be taken away from wealthier pensioners. Would this not
:05:22. > :05:25.have been done years ago if it was easy? I understand it would be
:05:26. > :05:30.difficult to administer the means test and give it to pensioners. I
:05:31. > :05:33.think we should maybe stop dividing the groups against each other.
:05:34. > :05:37.Eventually, young people are going to be pensioners, too. If we pay
:05:38. > :05:45.into the system, we should expect something back.
:05:46. > :05:55.Didn't David Cameron also promised not to top-down reorganise the NHS?
:05:56. > :06:02.I think that is what is called a rhetorical question. The man on the
:06:03. > :06:11.far left. Perhaps MPs should lead by example. There are MPs who have been
:06:12. > :06:17.claiming gas and electric rounds on their expenses. Perhaps they could
:06:18. > :06:24.donate that to pensioners. -- gas and electric allowance on expenses.
:06:25. > :06:27.The definition of a wealthy pensioner now seems to be taken as
:06:28. > :06:34.anybody who pays tax at the standard rate. That means they have an income
:06:35. > :06:42.of slightly over ?10,500. That is a ludicrous mark. Where do you get
:06:43. > :06:45.that from? Because the government do not like to means test, that is
:06:46. > :06:51.where the line is likely to be drawn. I do not want to pick the old
:06:52. > :06:55.against the young, but I think the question goes to a root issue, which
:06:56. > :06:59.is that the British promise basically is that those who are the
:07:00. > :07:02.next generation will do better than the current generation. The way that
:07:03. > :07:06.the social contract works is that it is a pyramid where those at the
:07:07. > :07:11.bottom who are working pay tax which goes towards your pension and you
:07:12. > :07:14.get out what you put in. There is a big Rob, which is that this
:07:15. > :07:19.generation will, for the first time in generations, the less well-off
:07:20. > :07:23.than that generation. I am an MP in London. The average age of a
:07:24. > :07:28.first-time property buyer in London is 38. We can have a discussion
:07:29. > :07:32.about some universal benefits staying universal. The pension. I
:07:33. > :07:36.think the bus pass is very important. Many older people need
:07:37. > :07:43.the bus passed to see friends and family, it addresses loneliness and
:07:44. > :07:46.get them out of the house. But Richard Branson and Alan Sugar do
:07:47. > :07:52.not need it but are entitled to it, which is ridiculous. Richard Branson
:07:53. > :07:56.does not use his bus pass and we are not paying for it. If you means test
:07:57. > :08:00.and shimmers for the bus pass, they will not apply for it. They will be
:08:01. > :08:05.stuck at home and it will be a huge cost to all of us. Rather than
:08:06. > :08:09.pitting you against them, make sure these guys have a future. Get them
:08:10. > :08:18.to work on the get them paying tax, get them paying national insurance
:08:19. > :08:22.and rebuild the social contract. The problem we have with the bus passes
:08:23. > :08:26.is that if the people did not use them, the buses would be empty. They
:08:27. > :08:30.still have to run, they have a schedule to keep. They run whether
:08:31. > :08:37.there are people on the bus or not will stop why take it from people
:08:38. > :08:42.who could use it and fill the buses? I agree with Sadiq Khan on this. We
:08:43. > :08:46.pay for bus passes for those who need them and we do not end up
:08:47. > :08:51.paying for the richer pensioners anyway. I also agree that I think,
:08:52. > :08:55.without wanting to dispute the premise of this programme, David, I
:08:56. > :08:59.actually do not think there is any point in trying to set one age group
:09:00. > :09:02.against another. All young people have parents and grandparents who
:09:03. > :09:07.they want to see through their old age with dignity and respect. And
:09:08. > :09:12.all grandparents want opportunities for their grandchildren. Everyone
:09:13. > :09:16.wants to make sure we have a fair society where we take the right
:09:17. > :09:19.decisions for the long-term, where everyone gets those opportunities.
:09:20. > :09:22.We can do that, but it means difficult decisions in a difficult
:09:23. > :09:29.period, when you have challenges ahead, as we all have, and those
:09:30. > :09:36.challenges do change. I think one of the problems is that if you got on
:09:37. > :09:45.the housing ladder at the age of these people and were lucky
:09:46. > :09:49.enough... Which people? The older generation. If you have built up a
:09:50. > :09:53.great deal of equity, and it is so much harder now to get into
:09:54. > :09:59.housing, and yet that is the basis, in the UK, unfortunately, of a lot
:10:00. > :10:05.of wealth. It is very hard. What we would need to do is to have quite a
:10:06. > :10:08.good and lengthy discussion about how the older people give up some of
:10:09. > :10:18.the equity, or release it to the younger people. For once, I agree
:10:19. > :10:23.with the whole panel. It is not their fault. It is not our fault. It
:10:24. > :10:31.is your fault. We were not the ones who sold off the council houses. We
:10:32. > :10:34.were not the ones who promised no Jewish in fees and as soon as they
:10:35. > :10:41.got anywhere near government sold out everybody who voted for them.
:10:42. > :10:52.You are the ones who did it. It is your fault, isn't it? All right, you
:10:53. > :10:57.made your point. The big question to grapple with, and we should be proud
:10:58. > :11:02.of this, we are living much older than we were historically. There are
:11:03. > :11:07.big questions about social care. We will be looking after our parents,
:11:08. > :11:10.because they will live longer. Also, people who are older will have to
:11:11. > :11:14.work longer. There are questions about when pension entitlement
:11:15. > :11:18.should kick in. It is an issue for all of us because we will be old one
:11:19. > :11:23.day as well. The idea of clashing generations is not the way. But
:11:24. > :11:26.tinkering with bus passes, which is a huge lifeline for many pensioners,
:11:27. > :11:32.is not the source of addressing these problems. These are big
:11:33. > :11:35.questions and need big answers. There are many pensioners who want
:11:36. > :11:40.to give up some of their benefits and have made that clear. You do not
:11:41. > :11:44.have to take the bus pass, the winter fuel allowance. You do not
:11:45. > :11:50.have to do any of these things. When you say there are people who want to
:11:51. > :11:54.give up... There are people who are saying they do not want these things
:11:55. > :12:04.and would like to give them up. Who are they? Maybe you are one of
:12:05. > :12:10.them. No. I agree, who defines a wealthy pensioner.
:12:11. > :12:21.I pay a small amount of income tax, but am I a wealthy pensioner? Could
:12:22. > :12:27.you define a wealthy pensioner? The government can do these things. The
:12:28. > :12:30.sums are much smaller. I have looked at these sums and they are much
:12:31. > :12:34.smaller than you might think. Usually, most people's definition of
:12:35. > :12:38.wealthy is the super wealthy. Actually, it does not have a huge
:12:39. > :12:43.impact because they are often not claiming benefits in the first
:12:44. > :12:47.place. The problem is that we have to recognise that we have a very
:12:48. > :12:51.expensive benefits there will, and we have to take some difficult
:12:52. > :12:58.decisions the fairest way to deal with it. And is it fair to do what
:12:59. > :13:06.David Cameron is proposing for the next manifesto, abolishing benefits
:13:07. > :13:11.for those under 25? Saving how much? What he has said is that everyone
:13:12. > :13:15.under 25 should be earning all learning, and I think that is
:13:16. > :13:20.absolutely right. It is completely wrong that someone can leave school,
:13:21. > :13:26.sign-on, find a house or flat to rent, get housing benefit and then
:13:27. > :13:30.start a life on the dole. I think it is immoral. We need a society that
:13:31. > :13:34.does not allow that. If you look at Holland, they do not allow anyone to
:13:35. > :13:39.claim benefit under the age of 27, and they have half the youth
:13:40. > :13:43.unemployment that we have. They find a combination of studying and
:13:44. > :13:53.working. That is a much better start for people. Are you in favour of
:13:54. > :13:56.that policy? No. It is shocking that it is coming at a time to tell
:13:57. > :14:03.people to earn, or to learn, when the minimum wage is so far below the
:14:04. > :14:07.then -- the living wage. Zero our contracts and the failure to provide
:14:08. > :14:12.people with work are skyrocketing, and fees for education have gone
:14:13. > :14:14.through the roof. So earning and learning is becoming increasingly
:14:15. > :14:19.difficult and you are telling people they have no safety net if they
:14:20. > :14:24.fail. You are against abolishing the benefit. Let's move on because we
:14:25. > :14:28.have a lot of questions. Are you in favour or against the proposal of
:14:29. > :14:35.under 25-year-olds not getting benefit? I am against it. I am
:14:36. > :14:41.against sweeping generalisations about young people. Many young
:14:42. > :14:45.people do not get a good job. Why does the government not focus on
:14:46. > :14:50.those who do not go to university, giving them vocational skills to get
:14:51. > :14:53.a proper job? Why not put pressure on big businesses to provide
:14:54. > :14:57.apprenticeships for young people? The way to reduce the benefit bill
:14:58. > :15:00.is not to cut and fits but to get these guys into work, give them
:15:01. > :15:07.apprenticeships, the skills they need. There are double the number of
:15:08. > :15:13.apprenticeships than under Labour. You are telling stuff that is not
:15:14. > :15:16.right. There are almost 1 million young people unemployed. In the last
:15:17. > :15:21.quarter, the number of young people unemployed for more than a year went
:15:22. > :15:25.up by 7000. There are record numbers not in employment, education or
:15:26. > :15:32.training. They are desperate for education, desperate for employment.
:15:33. > :15:36.They are in the right place, because in Salford, apprenticeship went up
:15:37. > :15:41.90% since Labour left the government. You cut education
:15:42. > :15:45.maintenance allowance, treble Jewish and fees, so do not be surprised if
:15:46. > :16:01.these guys do not go to university or college.
:16:02. > :16:11.We have one and a half million apprenticeships starting, double
:16:12. > :16:15.under Labour. We are doing those who are not in education or employment,
:16:16. > :16:19.that has gone down by 50,000, we are doing the things helping young
:16:20. > :16:28.people. That is what counts. We have got a lot of questions.
:16:29. > :16:47.You can join in the debate from home. The Red Button will let you
:16:48. > :16:54.see what others are saying. Catherine Johnson, please.
:16:55. > :17:07.If clever banks and bankers in London, and ethical banks mess up,
:17:08. > :17:15.who can Manchester girl trust? It is shocking, the revelations at
:17:16. > :17:22.the co-operative bank, and what has happened over the last few years.
:17:23. > :17:33.Had things been different they would have taken 700 Lloyd's branches as
:17:34. > :17:36.well, I welcome the enquiries. The Treasury Select Committee will be
:17:37. > :17:46.doing an enquiry, also the Financial Conduct Authority. It is about
:17:47. > :17:53.mutuals, not-for-profit, getting involved in provision for funeral
:17:54. > :17:56.services, legal services, grocery stores, financial advice. Many
:17:57. > :18:01.people back with it because it is ethical. When you bear in mind who
:18:02. > :18:09.is bailing them out, people banking with them are concerned. We are very
:18:10. > :18:18.proud of our association with them. Is it safe to bank with?
:18:19. > :18:22.It is not for me to say. We have changed the way banks are
:18:23. > :18:26.regulated. The fact they have not stepped in and gives me a source of
:18:27. > :18:32.confidence. I am pleased we are looking into the affairs. To make a
:18:33. > :18:37.sweeping assertion against the movement based on the actions of one
:18:38. > :18:42.ex-chairman and what happened is very unfair. In this part of the
:18:43. > :18:51.country in particular the co-operative movement doing a huge
:18:52. > :18:59.source of good for the population. What can Manchester girl do?
:19:00. > :19:06.If you have got savings, they are safe. The focus from the Prime
:19:07. > :19:10.Minister should not be to score party political points, but making
:19:11. > :19:28.job or worse, savers and investors are reassured their money is safe.
:19:29. > :19:35.I agree with him. Mutuals are a brilliant concept. In a period where
:19:36. > :19:40.people are mistrusting banks, the sort of trust you get with someone
:19:41. > :19:44.like John Lewis, it gives you confidence in an organisation and we
:19:45. > :19:47.should be encouraging different ownership models. We are doing a
:19:48. > :19:52.study to see if there is anything we can learn in the NHS about the
:19:53. > :20:00.mutuals movement. We should be thinking about the nearly 8 million
:20:01. > :20:05.individual holders, most of these people are not wealthy, it is their
:20:06. > :20:09.life savings invested in something they trusted, they got a dividend
:20:10. > :20:19.last year, they haven't had one this year. They are wondering how on
:20:20. > :20:26.earth the reverend flowers -- Reverend Flowers managed to become
:20:27. > :20:30.chairman. There have been a lot of newspaper headlines but how can
:20:31. > :20:36.somebody with so little knowledge of banking got to run a really
:20:37. > :20:45.important into station -- institution? I hope, we are clearing
:20:46. > :20:49.up a lot of mess after the banking crisis, but it does look like he got
:20:50. > :20:54.that job because of his connections, some of them look like political
:20:55. > :21:00.connections and I hope the Labour Party will be transparent. Their
:21:01. > :21:03.responsibility is to those 8 million bondholders to make sure we get to
:21:04. > :21:08.the truth they have a secure future for their savings and this can never
:21:09. > :21:12.happen again. Is it a cheap political point to attach blame to
:21:13. > :21:17.Labour? In fairness there were big
:21:18. > :21:28.connections between the Labour Party and the Co-op bank. Labour has still
:21:29. > :21:35.got its loans, the least it could do is be honest and transparent.
:21:36. > :21:44.Would this have ever come to light if his past haven't been exposed by
:21:45. > :21:53.a national newspaper? It is possible the answer is no. We
:21:54. > :21:59.still rely on our newspapers as thriving and vibrant and exposing
:22:00. > :22:08.organisations. For instance, we are seeing the trial, the Murdoch trial,
:22:09. > :22:13.the trial looking at the telephone hacking, and that would not have
:22:14. > :22:20.been exposed if it hadn't been for some of the newspapers. I think, as
:22:21. > :22:30.a long-term customer of the Co-op myself, I'm disappointed in all of
:22:31. > :22:36.this. What I really ask is how on earth after the banking crisis we
:22:37. > :22:40.had in 2007, why is there still a kind of regulatory system that isn't
:22:41. > :22:46.picking up these things? The one thing I would say is if we are going
:22:47. > :22:50.to have for enquiries about what happened in the past, I am not
:22:51. > :22:56.overly interested in that now, but what I am interested in is saving a
:22:57. > :23:07.great bank, it is the kind of bank we need rather than payday lenders.
:23:08. > :23:13.Mr Hunt likes winning political points with regards to blaming the
:23:14. > :23:17.Labour Party, perhaps we should start looking more into the
:23:18. > :23:21.financial organisations that made significant payments to the
:23:22. > :23:37.Conservative party and their dodgy appointments? Do you agree? He
:23:38. > :23:43.cannot stop himself. They have given no donations to the Labour Party.
:23:44. > :23:49.Recommendations were made which is implemented now would have uncovered
:23:50. > :23:52.some of this. Last year the Chancellor and the Treasury
:23:53. > :23:57.ministers spent a great deal of time lobbying Brussels to change the
:23:58. > :24:01.rules and persuade the Co-op bank to take over the Lloyds branches, the
:24:02. > :24:06.last three years, under your watch. Stop making cheap points about our
:24:07. > :24:16.connection with the Co-op bank. We are very proud with our link with
:24:17. > :24:22.the co-operative movement. Go on, Jeremy.
:24:23. > :24:31.The Chancellor lobbied on behalf of the Co-op rank which is a donor to
:24:32. > :24:47.the Labour Party. You say it doesn't lend money. What I actually said was
:24:48. > :24:51.that we need transparency from Labour to get to the bottom of this.
:24:52. > :24:55.Nearly 8 million bondholders are worrying about what will happen to
:24:56. > :24:59.their savings and we need to make sure we find out the truth stop that
:25:00. > :25:06.is all we are saying. I want to go onto a question that
:25:07. > :25:11.affects the generations we have. Let's move on. A question from Paul
:25:12. > :25:19.George. What can the government do about the
:25:20. > :25:24.housing market when house prices continue to rise? This affects the
:25:25. > :25:32.younger generation who cannot get on to the housing ladder, average wages
:25:33. > :25:36.decreasing, house prices going up. If you look at how the world has
:25:37. > :25:41.changed, when I left university until now, one of the biggest
:25:42. > :25:45.changes is it is so much harder to buy a house. There are other things
:25:46. > :25:49.that have got better for young people, the technology revolution
:25:50. > :25:52.has made huge strides, but this is very difficult thing because
:25:53. > :25:57.everybody wants to own a house rightly so. There are some big
:25:58. > :26:03.challenges if we want to get this right. We need to get new housing
:26:04. > :26:09.starts going again. They have got back to their 2008 levels but it has
:26:10. > :26:14.been a struggle. We need to look at planning laws, and my party, the
:26:15. > :26:18.government, made some controversial changes to make sure we do start
:26:19. > :26:23.building houses. The biggest betrayal of young people would be if
:26:24. > :26:27.we said we have got our houses now, we will not do what it takes to help
:26:28. > :26:31.young people get a foot on the housing ladder. The third thing is
:26:32. > :26:40.access to finance. That is why pay help to buy scheme has been
:26:41. > :26:45.significant, helping 75 families every day at their home. It is true
:26:46. > :26:50.it is still a real struggle. We have to do everything we can. It is
:26:51. > :26:55.something that hasn't changed between the generations, that they
:26:56. > :26:58.desire to own a house. Every government has a responsibility to
:26:59. > :27:03.do what it can to help people take that step.
:27:04. > :27:09.The man at the back. Part of the problem is the Labour
:27:10. > :27:14.government of the 90s set a target of sending 50% of young people into
:27:15. > :27:18.higher education. These young people cannot afford to buy a house because
:27:19. > :27:21.they are coming out of university, there are not the graduate jobs they
:27:22. > :27:26.need, and they are having to take jobs on a much lower level, less
:27:27. > :27:31.pay, in order to be able to survive so they cannot save up the money to
:27:32. > :27:43.buy a house. That is something the previous government have two out of
:27:44. > :27:46.four. -- they have to answer for. So roughly speaking 7% of that age
:27:47. > :27:53.group went to university, the older group. I am proud we wanted to have
:27:54. > :27:58.50% going to university. We have all benefited from a university
:27:59. > :28:20.education. The crisis in the housing market. Besides Ollie. -- Olly. Last
:28:21. > :28:29.year there were as many housing completes as the 1920s. We need to
:28:30. > :28:38.build more houses. The older side.
:28:39. > :28:41.There is a shortage of land yet there are property developers
:28:42. > :28:44.holding onto land for years and years waiting to maximise the prices
:28:45. > :28:52.when they should be legislation that makes them start building within 12
:28:53. > :29:01.months of buying the land. Do you own a house yourself?
:29:02. > :29:15.Yes. Your children, grandchildren? My children have got on the housing
:29:16. > :29:21.ladder. How old are they? 44, 42. They are not here on this site of
:29:22. > :29:26.the audience? This woman here. There is currently lots of three-bedroom
:29:27. > :29:31.houses empty because people affected by the bedroom tax, because nobody
:29:32. > :29:40.can move into them because they cannot afford them.
:29:41. > :29:45.The help to buy scheme is a bit scary because you are giving more
:29:46. > :29:49.people who cannot afford a house more income, jobs are not certain so
:29:50. > :29:56.why would you give more people access to more money when the
:29:57. > :30:02.economy is not stable, the income is not enough to pay the mortgage?
:30:03. > :30:07.On the help to buy scheme, there are much more checks and balances than
:30:08. > :30:11.they used to be. They used to be hundreds of schemes that would lend
:30:12. > :30:23.money at 93% of the value of the house, and it is something like 40
:30:24. > :30:28.3% -- 43 products. I know what happened in Manchester is that a
:30:29. > :30:38.whole load of single by Jim Holmes were bulldozed -- single bedroom
:30:39. > :30:43.homes. A lot of people in Manchester have been evicted as tenants. At the
:30:44. > :30:49.same time as there is money available to pay them to keep them
:30:50. > :30:55.in tenancies, unlike stop what, where tenants have been evicted
:30:56. > :30:59.under this system -- unlike Stockport. There is central
:31:00. > :31:02.government funding of ?180 million that can help people through this.
:31:03. > :31:09.If I can just say about the housing thing, I was really interested to
:31:10. > :31:15.see Ed Balls today was admitting Labour kind of screwed up on this.
:31:16. > :31:20.When I was working at backward shelter -- Shelter trying to lobby
:31:21. > :31:26.the government to build houses we got nowhere. It is good to hear Ed
:31:27. > :31:31.Balls finally admit housing was a big failure by the Labour
:31:32. > :31:34.government. I think it was. We are building and have finally managed to
:31:35. > :31:39.start building more affordable homes. For the first time we are
:31:40. > :31:51.getting more social housing after it was sold off by successive Labour
:31:52. > :32:01.and Tory governments. That is not my experience. What about what Ed Balls
:32:02. > :32:11.said? He said we should have built more houses when we were in
:32:12. > :32:13.government. We had to bring those appalling properties and social
:32:14. > :32:18.housing up to decent standard. We should have got more housing but we
:32:19. > :32:22.did not. If we build more houses, it means more builders getting into
:32:23. > :32:30.work, paying National Insurance and tack 's. We need to have a law that
:32:31. > :32:34.says you use it or you lose it. We say to property developers hoarding
:32:35. > :32:37.the land, unless you use the development plans you have to build
:32:38. > :32:45.a housing, we will take it away from you and build on the land ourselves.
:32:46. > :32:48.You mentioned earlier that you are getting to the stage where people in
:32:49. > :32:53.their 30s are only able to get onto the housing ladder for the first
:32:54. > :32:56.time. I was 30 when I got onto the housing ladder and I entered the
:32:57. > :33:05.housing market a mortgage rate of 10%. And the reason why I did that,
:33:06. > :33:08.and a lot of others did, too, was a simple fact of mobility. We were
:33:09. > :33:12.willing to go where the job market was. I was caught up in the
:33:13. > :33:18.north-east and had to move to London to get a job in order to get onto
:33:19. > :33:22.the housing market. I do not see too much of that mobility in the
:33:23. > :33:37.marketplace. Our Usain young people will not move? -- are you saying? We
:33:38. > :33:41.do move. We move around all the time. If where we go to university
:33:42. > :33:45.there are not jobs, we have to go to another city. We move around. You do
:33:46. > :33:56.not necessarily see it, but we do it. Surely basic economics tells us
:33:57. > :34:00.when demand outstrips supply, the price goes up. Jeremy has already
:34:01. > :34:04.told us we are not building enough houses. At the same time, they are
:34:05. > :34:11.making it easier for people to get mortgages. Prices go up. What do you
:34:12. > :34:20.think the effect will be on this generation, who cannot get on the
:34:21. > :34:31.housing ladder until 38? Maybe if we adopt a more European approach. In
:34:32. > :34:35.Germany, more people rent. Isn't it going to turn into a system
:34:36. > :34:38.where we end up renting and the rich get richer and we put more money
:34:39. > :34:47.into their pockets because we cannot get into the housing market? Do you
:34:48. > :34:53.have any aspiration? I cannot afford to enter the housing market at the
:34:54. > :34:57.moment so I will be forced to rent. I do not understand where the space
:34:58. > :35:03.for these houses will be. We currently have an immigration
:35:04. > :35:06.problem, a lack of job is. You are lending money to people, which seems
:35:07. > :35:11.a statistics game for the government to make itself look better.
:35:12. > :35:15.Eventually it will crash because the house prices will go down. Because
:35:16. > :35:19.there are more houses, the equity will do appreciate and it will crash
:35:20. > :35:25.eventually again. I have no intention of even wanting to get
:35:26. > :35:29.into that. We have two very different views on that. I think the
:35:30. > :35:33.answer is that we need a bit of both. We need to increase supply,
:35:34. > :35:37.but also to make sure people can afford it when you increase supply.
:35:38. > :35:42.We need to be brave and accept we will have to do that throughout the
:35:43. > :35:46.country. I think it is perfectly possible to increase supply and
:35:47. > :35:50.protect a beautiful countryside. I think there are lots of places where
:35:51. > :35:54.we could be more imaginative. The NHS is, for example, sitting on a
:35:55. > :35:59.lot of land which we could be much quicker at disposing of, and some of
:36:00. > :36:04.that could be appropriate for housing. But I think that at the
:36:05. > :36:08.heart of this is responsibility for those of us who did manage to get
:36:09. > :36:11.onto the housing ladder when houses were a lot cheaper to think about
:36:12. > :36:17.doing what it takes for people who are much younger, who have the same
:36:18. > :36:22.dreams and aspirations we had. It does not work and it is not
:36:23. > :36:26.acceptable to sit tight. I think we have to say, what are we going to
:36:27. > :36:31.do? Tackling this from all directions is the only way to do
:36:32. > :36:36.that. I want to look my children in the eye and say, I did what it took
:36:37. > :36:43.to help you enjoy the same ambitions and aspirations that I had. 13,500
:36:44. > :36:48.houses which have permission to build in Salford, but nobody is
:36:49. > :36:52.building, and the number is going up by about 2000 each year. Permission
:36:53. > :37:05.is being given but nobody is building. Why not? Profit. What can
:37:06. > :37:08.the government do? That is where the Help to Buy scheme can make a
:37:09. > :37:12.difference. Young people would be confident that they could buy the
:37:13. > :37:19.houses, and people would be confident they could build them and
:37:20. > :37:25.make a profit. You can relax planning permission. If they do not
:37:26. > :37:32.think it is profitable, they will not build. One problem is land
:37:33. > :37:36.banking. Second, it is people not having confidence in the economy and
:37:37. > :37:41.not wanting to invest in bricks and mortar. We have to use whatever
:37:42. > :37:45.levers we have two persuade them. Olly Grender is right, after a
:37:46. > :37:50.period of time, you could revoke the permission after five years. I am
:37:51. > :37:54.saying, let's go further. Unless you start building, we will take away
:37:55. > :38:02.the permission that you have. We can do it and we should. That will force
:38:03. > :38:09.them to start building houses. Onto another question. Alice Sugden,
:38:10. > :38:12.please. Will the reforms to the NHS do enough to prevent serious
:38:13. > :38:24.failings in care such as at Stafford Hospital? Olly Grender. This week,
:38:25. > :38:34.what the government has done is publish some responses to the report
:38:35. > :38:39.into Mid Staffs. I am sure Jeremy Hunt will go through quite a feud in
:38:40. > :38:44.detail, but I will look at one in particular which was actually in the
:38:45. > :38:49.Lib Dem manifesto. It is about a UK of candour. I see this as incredibly
:38:50. > :39:00.important. This is about honesty from people. When I hand my child to
:39:01. > :39:04.a nursery, I expect all of the staff to be absolutely straight with me if
:39:05. > :39:08.anything has gone wrong. It is exact in the same, as an elderly relative
:39:09. > :39:13.goes into hospital, you want to know there is an absolute expectation on
:39:14. > :39:18.both the organisation and the individuals in the organisation.
:39:19. > :39:23.That goes without saying but how would what happened at Staffordshire
:39:24. > :39:28.hospital be prevented? It does not go without saying. It goes without
:39:29. > :39:33.saying that you think it should happen. I think that is one of the
:39:34. > :39:40.reforms that will prevent things like this in future. I am confident
:39:41. > :39:48.that will happen. I think, in a way, what we need to do is to start
:39:49. > :39:52.celebrating the whistle-blowers. This is exactly the kind of thing we
:39:53. > :39:57.expect and want, people to be honest when something has gone wrong. This
:39:58. > :40:05.is exactly what did not happen in Mid Staffs. On this one particular
:40:06. > :40:15.point, I have confidence. I have confidence in the others as well. We
:40:16. > :40:17.had better not list the others! One of the reforms will criminalise
:40:18. > :40:23.doctors and nurses for wilful neglect. Will that create a culture
:40:24. > :40:36.of openness in the NHS, or a culture of fear? One of the shocking things
:40:37. > :40:40.about what happened at Mid Staffs hospital was that no nurses and
:40:41. > :40:45.doctors were brought to book for a very long time. In extreme cases, I
:40:46. > :40:49.think it is right, if someone deliberately harms a patient. Lots
:40:50. > :40:52.of doctors and nurses have said they would not want a doctor who
:40:53. > :40:57.deliberately harms a patient not to meet full force of the law. What
:40:58. > :41:02.doctor or nurse would ever agree with that. That is not the heart of
:41:03. > :41:07.the change. The heart of the changes something different, making it
:41:08. > :41:12.easier for people to speak out by giving them protection they have not
:41:13. > :41:17.had before. I meet many nurses and doctors who see things they worry
:41:18. > :41:21.about but then think what will happen if I speak out gesture more
:41:22. > :41:27.we need to change the culture so everyone understands that we all
:41:28. > :41:32.want people to speak out. Her point was about criminalising them. Are
:41:33. > :41:39.you happy with his answer? Does it answer your point? I think by
:41:40. > :41:45.criminalising people, other people will be scared to criminalise their
:41:46. > :41:53.colleagues. So they will not whistle-blowers if they think that
:41:54. > :41:57.-- they will be charged. In order for the duty of candour to really
:41:58. > :42:02.work, it depends on the culture of the organisation. It really does
:42:03. > :42:10.depend on that going from the top throughout the organisation.
:42:11. > :42:15.Otherwise a blame culture enters. What we want, and I agree that it is
:42:16. > :42:19.different, those prosecutions are different because it is where harm
:42:20. > :42:24.has been done deliberately. But where there is a mistake, we have to
:42:25. > :42:28.have it so that staff can put up their hand and say, I have messed
:42:29. > :42:33.up. I am sorry, we have to put it right, but also we have to learn
:42:34. > :42:35.from it. It is that culture of learning running through the
:42:36. > :42:46.organisations that I think will make the big change.
:42:47. > :42:51.On the point of criminalising neglect, I am going to qualify as a
:42:52. > :42:54.doctor in a couple of months. I am wondering why is it OK for other
:42:55. > :42:58.professions when they make a mistake in their job not to facing class
:42:59. > :43:02.oration, but it is a completely different story for medical
:43:03. > :43:10.professionals? -- not to face incarceration. If you deliberately
:43:11. > :43:15.harm anyone in any profession you are subject to the law. This is
:43:16. > :43:19.changing what is in common law and putting it in statute. This
:43:20. > :43:23.gentleman made the point that is right. This is not about trying to
:43:24. > :43:29.create more criminals, but a culture of openness. You have one of the
:43:30. > :43:32.best hospitals in the country here, which is the safest hospital outside
:43:33. > :43:37.London. They have done that because they have an inspiring Chief
:43:38. > :43:41.Executive and chief nurse, who have created a culture where the staff
:43:42. > :43:44.feel able to speak out. That is because they think if they talk
:43:45. > :43:50.about an error, something is going to happen and someone will learn
:43:51. > :43:54.from it. There is also another in Greater Manchester, greater
:43:55. > :44:05.Manchester mental health hospital trust. I happen to be on the board.
:44:06. > :44:10.We have that culture going. I think the Francis Report is a very good
:44:11. > :44:17.report. Unlike Olly Grender and Jeremy, I think we should implement
:44:18. > :44:21.all of the recommendations in full. Jeremy talks a great talk, but one
:44:22. > :44:26.of the problems is that the evidence is that since his party joined a
:44:27. > :44:30.coalition government, the number of nurses, and my source is the NHS
:44:31. > :44:38.information Centre today, the number of nurses is down by 6642 since May
:44:39. > :44:43.of 2010. One of the main findings of the report was that staffing levels
:44:44. > :44:46.are so low that doctors and nurses led to inadequate care and lead to
:44:47. > :44:50.bad things happening in Mid Staffordshire. One other thing is
:44:51. > :44:55.that you can have a criminal law about wilfulness collect and
:44:56. > :45:00.publicise the ratio of staff on wards, but unless you give hospitals
:45:01. > :45:11.the resources and the nurses, it is talk and no action. That is what
:45:12. > :45:14.needs to happen, Jeremy. Equally robust figures which you did not
:45:15. > :45:20.mention are that over the last three years we have had 6600 more doctors
:45:21. > :45:26.in the NHS. We have 1200 more midwives, 1000 more health visitors.
:45:27. > :45:29.Yes, I am worried about the nurses going down, not in hospitals, but in
:45:30. > :45:33.the community. District nursing numbers have gone down. That is
:45:34. > :45:37.wrong and that is why we are making the changes this week, which means
:45:38. > :45:44.everyone has to publish the number of nurses, so we know if there is
:45:45. > :45:50.safe staffing. You don't actually have anywhere to go, because your
:45:51. > :45:57.party opposed the public enquiry. You did not want to have the
:45:58. > :46:01.enquiry. It is true that Andy Burnham decided not to have a public
:46:02. > :46:06.enquiry and we decided to have it. That is why we are making, adopting
:46:07. > :46:11.so many of these recommendations today. What has happened as a result
:46:12. > :46:15.of that enquiry you did not want? Over the last year, hospitals have
:46:16. > :46:20.decided to recruit 4000 more nurses than they were planning 12 months
:46:21. > :46:25.ago. I think the climate is changing. I agree we need safe
:46:26. > :46:30.staffing in our wards, but it is not about one number for every ward. It
:46:31. > :46:33.is about a ward by ward basis, transparency and people feeling
:46:34. > :46:39.comfortable to speak out when they see something wrong.
:46:40. > :46:48.Several years ago the NHS carried out one of the biggest job
:46:49. > :46:51.evaluation surveys. Many nurses were put onto management grades which is
:46:52. > :46:56.why a lot of nurses disappeared, on the face of it. Now a ward sister
:46:57. > :47:02.isn't a ward sister, she is called a ward manager so she is not counted
:47:03. > :47:10.in the nursing numbers. So the numbers are understated? We may not
:47:11. > :47:16.have lost that number of nurses. You can talk about statistics all
:47:17. > :47:20.night, but the question was about whether the reforms the government
:47:21. > :47:28.are implementing will help. One of the root causes of the report said
:47:29. > :47:32.the management at Stafford Hospital were pushing to meet government
:47:33. > :47:35.targets and to try and get foundation status, that is why they
:47:36. > :47:43.were ignoring patients, they were more focused on getting targets. The
:47:44. > :47:47.question is, will the reforms help, wouldn't it be better removing
:47:48. > :47:52.politicians from the NHS, no offence intended, so there cannot be this
:47:53. > :47:57.constant reorganisation and change going on?
:47:58. > :48:07.We have got to go onto another point.
:48:08. > :48:12.It is about ensuring the care is wrapped around the individual. That
:48:13. > :48:18.is why the Care Bill is so important, it breaks down these
:48:19. > :48:25.politically led institutions and places them wrapped around, so that
:48:26. > :48:31.one person gets the dignity, attention, care and personal
:48:32. > :48:37.attention they need. That is the foundation of the bill we are taking
:48:38. > :48:41.three Parliament. The definition of success was meeting waiting times
:48:42. > :48:45.target and being in financial balance and we have set up this year
:48:46. > :48:48.a new chief inspector of hospitals who is going round, it will not be
:48:49. > :48:55.possible to be a good or outstanding hospital unless you have good or
:48:56. > :49:02.outstanding compassionate care. Patients need to be at the heart of
:49:03. > :49:08.what hospitals do. Jeremy talks the good talk. Patients, if they are at
:49:09. > :49:13.the heart of things, means not waiting more than four hours for
:49:14. > :49:19.accident and emergency, not queueing in an ambulance waiting to get in,
:49:20. > :49:23.not waiting for days rather than being at home. That is the problem
:49:24. > :49:35.with the ?3 billion wasted on a reorganisation nobody wanted. Let's
:49:36. > :49:39.have a question from Kelly Parker. With the UK jobless rate falling to
:49:40. > :49:43.a three-year low last week, why is it that youth unemployment remains
:49:44. > :49:49.above 20%? Lots of reasons. One of the things
:49:50. > :49:54.we had when we were in government is a guarantee for young people, if you
:49:55. > :49:58.were a graduate out of work for six months you will be guaranteed a job.
:49:59. > :50:03.The government idea of getting young people into work is just to get them
:50:04. > :50:07.stacking shelves, it is in a good -- it is inadequate. You need to give
:50:08. > :50:13.them skills making them attractive to employee. Apprenticeship schemes
:50:14. > :50:18.will be useful to the employer, the young person. Focus on 50% who don't
:50:19. > :50:23.go to university, vocational skills that will make them desirable to
:50:24. > :50:27.employers. Give young people the skills to make them attractive to
:50:28. > :50:31.employers. One of the great tragedies is the wasted talent
:50:32. > :50:35.amongst young people. I am in favour of a future jobs guarantee for a
:50:36. > :50:39.young person, if you are out of work for a year we will guarantee you a
:50:40. > :50:49.job with an employer, we will subsidise that, so they get benefits
:50:50. > :50:54.from the government, you will stop paying taxes, national insurance.
:50:55. > :51:01.Can you choose the league say you can guarantee a job? -- truthfully.
:51:02. > :51:07.Who are these employers? When you speak to small and medium-sized
:51:08. > :51:19.lawyers is the young people don't have the skills -- employers . The
:51:20. > :51:27.big concern and criticism is people from overseas taking these jobs.
:51:28. > :51:31.I am doing a four-year degree with a sandwich course right now and I am
:51:32. > :51:36.in my second year so looking for my placement. I go on websites where
:51:37. > :51:41.there are 70 placements for accounting and finance, only seven
:51:42. > :51:49.of those are written in north-west, they are all in London.
:51:50. > :51:57.Somebody earlier was saying move, would you move?
:51:58. > :52:03.I would . This all comes down to the downturn
:52:04. > :52:10.of industry, it has been eroded year after year. If we started, for
:52:11. > :52:14.example with nuclear energy, if we bought nuclear energy and the
:52:15. > :52:22.manufacture of nuclear plants back from a French company that would
:52:23. > :52:27.provide jobs. Employment is rising but employment among the young has
:52:28. > :52:30.stood still. You are always talking about young
:52:31. > :52:36.people needing skills and if they have got skills there will be a job.
:52:37. > :52:44.The jobs are not there. I have got a 28-year-old with a Masters degree,
:52:45. > :52:50.and she has got lots of skills, she has worked in Budapest, on the West
:52:51. > :52:54.Bank, she has worked for UNESCO in Paris for six-month is unpaid, she
:52:55. > :53:00.is now working in Japan on a three month contract teaching English. She
:53:01. > :53:05.cannot get a job in the UK. Use a move, the only time she has ever
:53:06. > :53:10.been able to move, she still cannot get a job that will pay for housing,
:53:11. > :53:14.so she goes and illegally sublets because that is the only way she can
:53:15. > :53:18.afford somewhere to live and a lot of her friends are in the same
:53:19. > :53:22.situation. They are trapped, they cannot move, the jobs are not there
:53:23. > :53:38.Trapped. Trapped. Jeremy Hunt?
:53:39. > :53:42.I was going to come to her point and explain the issue but I want to say
:53:43. > :53:50.this, it is not government that creates jobs, it is the private
:53:51. > :53:54.sector. Over the last three years 400,000 businesses have been
:53:55. > :54:00.created. That is why we have 1.1 million more people in employment
:54:01. > :54:03.than three years ago. There are some signs the tide is turning for youth
:54:04. > :54:06.unemployment. If you asked me what the single thing we could do that
:54:07. > :54:10.would make a big difference in this area, it is to make sure the skills
:54:11. > :54:14.people leave college or university with relevant to the jobs market. We
:54:15. > :54:18.did have a system where sometimes people getting certificate that they
:54:19. > :54:24.were not actually matched very well with the kind of things employers
:54:25. > :54:31.wanted. She seemed to have every qualification under the sun.
:54:32. > :54:41.I have been with her around Preston opening series and they say we do
:54:42. > :54:47.not want another one. -- CVs. We have let them down. What they come
:54:48. > :54:51.up with is a qualification that needs to be valued by employers.
:54:52. > :54:56.What is worrying is we have a situation where an opponent is
:54:57. > :55:01.falling, jobs are going up but it is not making a big dent in youth
:55:02. > :55:08.unemployment. We need to look at the education system and vocational
:55:09. > :55:11.education and apprenticeships. Nothing is worse than that
:55:12. > :55:14.experience of looking for a job and not being able to find it but in
:55:15. > :55:25.this area, the Northwest, there was better news. For instance, HS2,
:55:26. > :55:30.electrification. The airport development is bringing jobs, but
:55:31. > :55:35.also for greater Manchester there is a 5.8 million investment and it is
:55:36. > :55:40.specifically about helping people to get into work, young people in
:55:41. > :55:46.particular to get into work. As I said before, apprenticeships in this
:55:47. > :55:51.area, I am sorry that doesn't apply to your incredibly qualified
:55:52. > :56:00.daughter, but apprenticeships have gone up 90% since Labour were in
:56:01. > :56:07.power. I am sorry, since Labour left power. This is an important --
:56:08. > :56:10.important point with regard to the 50% that don't go to university, the
:56:11. > :56:20.gentleman raise that issue earlier, Ed Miliband talk about the 50% and
:56:21. > :56:24.he describes it as the rest, the people that almost don't matter
:56:25. > :56:30.ordered. We do count those of us who didn't go to university and the
:56:31. > :56:35.people that have done other ways to get into work.
:56:36. > :56:39.I want to bring in some people affected by this you haven't spoken
:56:40. > :56:46.yet. Don't stick your hand if you have spoken already.
:56:47. > :56:50.You say implement has gone up but what kind of jobs? Zero hours where
:56:51. > :57:00.people get 15 hours per week? Agency jobs? I have got employment agencies
:57:01. > :57:04.saying can you go down tomorrow only to find out it is a one-day
:57:05. > :57:10.contract. It is all right bashing Conservative
:57:11. > :57:15.policies and agree there are problems with part-time jobs but
:57:16. > :57:22.where will you get money from? The ads is borrowed money. Where will
:57:23. > :57:34.you get money from? Somebody who hasn't spoken from the older side.
:57:35. > :57:43.The jobs are fixed. Who can live on part-time jobs? The figures are all
:57:44. > :57:48.fixed. Are you sympathetic to the youth who cannot find jobs?
:57:49. > :57:55.Yes. The reason is people cannot get jobs
:57:56. > :58:00.the economy is structured wrongly. If you pay thousands of pounds to
:58:01. > :58:04.somebody pushing a mouse around a desk, and give the money to young
:58:05. > :58:15.people they will gain experience and we will all benefit.
:58:16. > :58:22.On that note we have two and. Our time is up. We will be in Falkirk
:58:23. > :58:25.next week, the Scottish government is posting its case for
:58:26. > :58:32.independence. The week after that we are in London. That is on the day of
:58:33. > :58:44.the prebudget report. If you want to come to either programme go to our
:58:45. > :58:48.website or you can call us. If you are listening to Radio five Live you
:58:49. > :58:53.can continue the debate, but my thanks to our panel, Tim Stanley and
:58:54. > :58:57.Joan Bakewell couldn't get here because the trainer didn't deliver
:58:58. > :59:08.them we will have them some other day. Thank you to this panel and all
:59:09. > :59:14.of you, over 60, and under 30. Thank you all very much, good night.