:00:00. > :00:19.Tonight, we are in Falkirk, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:20. > :00:25.And a welcome to you at home, and to our audience. On the panel last week
:00:26. > :00:31.we only had three panellists. We are making up for it tonight with six
:00:32. > :00:35.panellists. Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon of the
:00:36. > :00:40.SNP. From Westminster, the Liberal Democrat Secretary of State for
:00:41. > :00:44.Scotland, Alistair Carmichael. Labour's shadow Scottish secretary,
:00:45. > :00:50.Margaret Curran. The ex-leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Annabel
:00:51. > :00:55.Goldie. One of the leaders of the Scottish Greens, and a member of the
:00:56. > :00:56.Scottish Parliament, Patrick Harvie. And the singer and independence
:00:57. > :01:15.campaigner Eddi Reader. So, it is just ten months before
:01:16. > :01:20.Scotland is asked to decide whether it wants independence. This week the
:01:21. > :01:24.SNP published its argument for independence. Tonight, we will be
:01:25. > :01:31.debating that with an audience that is pretty well divided 50-50 on the
:01:32. > :01:37.issue, evenly split. Let's take our first question from Stephanie Pride.
:01:38. > :01:48.Can Scotland achieve true independence without an independent
:01:49. > :01:52.currency? Nicola Sturgeon. Yes, absolutely, we can. France and
:01:53. > :01:56.Germany share a currency but nobody would argue that they are not
:01:57. > :02:00.independent countries. I want Scotland to the independent so that
:02:01. > :02:05.we can be responsible for our own decisions, take decisions in our
:02:06. > :02:10.best interest. But sometimes those decisions will be to cooperate with
:02:11. > :02:15.others, in particular our friends in other parts of the UK. A shared
:02:16. > :02:18.currency would not just be in Scotland's interests, but also in
:02:19. > :02:25.the best interests of other parts of the UK. Why? Firstly, Scotland is
:02:26. > :02:30.the second biggest export market for England, and England is Scotland's
:02:31. > :02:35.biggest export market. Unless we want to incur unnecessary costs for
:02:36. > :02:39.businesses, it makes sense to stay in the same currency. What do you
:02:40. > :02:45.make of the argument John Major put today in his speech? He said a
:02:46. > :02:49.currency union, which you assume is negotiable, would require the UK to
:02:50. > :02:53.underwrite Scottish debt and that cannot and will not happen if
:02:54. > :03:00.Scotland leaves the union, there will be no halfway house, no quasi
:03:01. > :03:04.independence. I would recommend to John Major that he reads the work
:03:05. > :03:08.done by the fiscal commission, that set out in some exhaustive detail
:03:09. > :03:11.how this arrangement would work, including the governments
:03:12. > :03:15.arrangements of the Bank of England, and what would happen if
:03:16. > :03:20.there was any need, which we hope there would never be, to stabilise
:03:21. > :03:24.the financial system, and the shared contributions that would be made by
:03:25. > :03:29.Scotland and other parts of the UK. I do not accept that argument. The
:03:30. > :03:32.second point about why it is the right arrangement is that Scotland
:03:33. > :03:37.contributes massively to the UK balance of payments. Our oil and gas
:03:38. > :03:40.exports are ?30 billion. If that was taken out of the UK balance of
:03:41. > :03:44.payments, the balance of payments deficit would almost double, which
:03:45. > :03:50.would be back -- damaging to the sterling currency. My final point is
:03:51. > :03:54.that it is as much Scotland's pound as it is the rest of the UK, and we
:03:55. > :03:58.will be expected to take on our share of the liabilities of the UK.
:03:59. > :04:08.It is only right that we get our share of the assets as well.
:04:09. > :04:15.Alistair Carmichael, do you believe it can work as simply as that? No, I
:04:16. > :04:19.don't. Basically, we almost that currency unions are very difficult
:04:20. > :04:23.to make work. You just need to look at what has happened in the eurozone
:04:24. > :04:27.to see that. Effectively, what Nicola is offering to the rest of
:04:28. > :04:34.the UK is the opportunity to import into the rest of the UK the problems
:04:35. > :04:38.of the eurozone. Currency unions only work if you can align your
:04:39. > :04:43.economy so they go in the same place, the same direction, at the
:04:44. > :04:48.same speed, at the same time. If you are going to do that, to take your
:04:49. > :04:52.point, I do not think you have a properly independent country at that
:04:53. > :04:57.point. Why would Scotland, on day one, say, we are independent, and on
:04:58. > :05:00.day two hand over control of interest rates, borrowing levels,
:05:01. > :05:06.taxation and all the rest of it back to an institution in the rest of the
:05:07. > :05:10.UK? From the point of the rest of the UK, you would be asking them to
:05:11. > :05:15.underwrite banks and to have taxpayers in the rest of the United
:05:16. > :05:19.Kingdom stand behind the Bank of England, the lender of last resort,
:05:20. > :05:25.in circumstances where they had no control over these banks. It is not
:05:26. > :05:30.in either party's interests to have it, and it just would not happen.
:05:31. > :05:34.When you say it would not happen, if Scotland voted for independence you
:05:35. > :05:36.are saying the Treasury, the Bank of England, the government at
:05:37. > :05:42.Westminster would refuse to countenance it? George Osborne has
:05:43. > :05:47.said it is highly unlikely. Different from saying it will not
:05:48. > :05:50.happen. That can only be said by the government of the remainder of the
:05:51. > :05:59.United Kingdom when it is constituted in that way. He said it
:06:00. > :06:04.was logical and desirable. He did not, that is a misrepresentation. It
:06:05. > :06:07.is not just Ed Balls George Osborne, but Carl Wynn Jones, First Minister
:06:08. > :06:12.of Wales, says that he would not want it. This is not just a contest
:06:13. > :06:16.between Westminster and Edinburgh. This is going to involve people in
:06:17. > :06:19.all parts of the United Kingdom. Nobody should vote for independence
:06:20. > :06:24.next year thinking that if they do so they will keep the pound. On
:06:25. > :06:28.Tuesday, we should have heard what the alternative was. I think Patrick
:06:29. > :06:39.Mabey has an interesting alternative, but you cannot vote yes
:06:40. > :06:44.on the basis of keeping the pound. Nicola Sturgeon mentioned France and
:06:45. > :06:48.Germany. That is the euro with Germany very much the lead country.
:06:49. > :06:56.Is that not what we should be doing, entering the euro? And secondly, is
:06:57. > :07:01.Alex Salmond in Wales to see if the Welsh Mint will make Scottish
:07:02. > :07:07.pounds? You are saying the euro would be preferable to going into
:07:08. > :07:15.sterling. Eddi Reader. Well, I ain't a politician, but, you know... I
:07:16. > :07:18.don't have any problem with England and I don't think England has a
:07:19. > :07:23.problem with us. The people of England and the people of Scotland
:07:24. > :07:29.are sane people. They would not choose to have a fight about
:07:30. > :07:32.something like this. Once it is simply explained what the actual
:07:33. > :07:36.deal is, this union we are supposed to have, once it is explained to the
:07:37. > :07:42.English and the Scottish people properly, by people with no agenda,
:07:43. > :07:46.by the way, anybody, once it is said what it is, and I did a bit of
:07:47. > :07:51.investigation. I was neutral this time. This time last year I was
:07:52. > :07:56.neutral, completely neutral. I was a Labour traditional voter. And then I
:07:57. > :08:02.started looking at what this was that was floating into our laps,
:08:03. > :08:07.this referendum idea. What is it? I like the union. What is this
:08:08. > :08:12.breaking up? I don't think it is that. I actually went and found out
:08:13. > :08:15.what the deal is. Our deal is not that. Our vote does not affect what
:08:16. > :08:24.happens in the rest of the United Kingdom. Our vote in Scotland is
:08:25. > :08:30.generally centre-left, and the bottom part of England tend to vote
:08:31. > :08:35.centre-right. Therefore, we have to put up with that. And there was a
:08:36. > :08:40.time when they did go for a kind of socialist, socially useful
:08:41. > :08:46.compromise with Tony and Gordon, but that had to go so far right that it
:08:47. > :08:49.was not the Labour Party that I voted for, and it wasn't what
:08:50. > :08:56.Scotland votes for. Scotland votes for welfare. It votes for people. I
:08:57. > :09:02.do not want to deflect you, but we are coming to this question. All
:09:03. > :09:06.right, what I want to say is that if we decide to be independent, I do
:09:07. > :09:14.not see it as having a fight with anybody. Margaret Curran, do you
:09:15. > :09:19.agree? No, I do not. The currency is absolutely fundamental to the
:09:20. > :09:23.interests of Scotland. It is at the heart of what the SNP has proposed
:09:24. > :09:26.and has not been explained at all. We were promised the answers in the
:09:27. > :09:30.White Paper and we have not got them. To me, it is a strange
:09:31. > :09:34.independence that says we will have all about tax powers, keep control
:09:35. > :09:38.of tax powers, but the monetary powers, which determine interest
:09:39. > :09:43.rates, mortgages, has huge imprecations for our economic
:09:44. > :09:46.interests, they will be set by the Bank of England. The Bank of England
:09:47. > :09:50.is under the legislative competence of the UK, but under Nicola
:09:51. > :09:55.Sturgeon's model, will withdraw all political influence in that. I think
:09:56. > :10:04.that is a very strange form of independence. Why would we give away
:10:05. > :10:06.those economic powers? What is it that you independent Scottish
:10:07. > :10:10.government would not be able to do if it had sterling as its currency?
:10:11. > :10:23.We would have influence over interest rates. You say you set them
:10:24. > :10:27.already? They are set for Scotland at the moment. We will debate this
:10:28. > :10:32.as the year goes on but this is important. Under the proposals put
:10:33. > :10:35.forward by the SNP, which their own experts have said it is stupid not
:10:36. > :10:41.to have a back-up plan to this, under their proposals, they propose
:10:42. > :10:44.to split tax powers from interest rates. The interest rates would be
:10:45. > :10:50.determined by the Bank of England. The Bank of England, the legislative
:10:51. > :10:53.framework of the governance of the Bank of England is determined by the
:10:54. > :10:57.UK Parliament, from which the SNP want us to withdraw. What you think
:10:58. > :11:03.they should do, if they for independence, have their own
:11:04. > :11:06.currency or go into the euro? I think the best way to keep the pound
:11:07. > :11:16.and economic stability is to vote no in the referendum. People are
:11:17. > :11:19.saying, two panellists, saying we will lose control of interest
:11:20. > :11:25.rates. That assumes we have control at the moment. In the waiting room,
:11:26. > :11:30.we had Mark Carney's announcement which did not get much past the
:11:31. > :11:33.property market in London. I would like to go for interregional
:11:34. > :11:41.cooperation, rather than attacking the yes campaign. Can you answer his
:11:42. > :11:46.point specifically, that interest rates are not fixed by the
:11:47. > :11:50.government anyway? Interest rates come within the macroeconomic
:11:51. > :11:53.framework. We have seen what has happened as the government has
:11:54. > :11:58.struggled to cut the overall deficit in the UK. The government is trying
:11:59. > :12:02.to do that to try to protect, for example, mortgage rates, to ensure
:12:03. > :12:06.interest rates are not leaping out of control and people are facing
:12:07. > :12:12.impossible bills to pay. Going back to the heart of this, Nicola used an
:12:13. > :12:16.interesting example, I thought, to illustrate a currency operation.
:12:17. > :12:21.That was the euro. Most people would look at the euro, with all of its
:12:22. > :12:24.challengers recently, and regard it as an instructive experience. The
:12:25. > :12:30.first part of the experience is, thank goodness we are not in the
:12:31. > :12:35.euro. The other very instructive ins -- experience is, and the gentleman
:12:36. > :12:37.was quite right, Germany actually controls the euro. It does not
:12:38. > :12:42.matter what the other countries think, Germany is calling the shots
:12:43. > :12:48.and Germany is determining what the borrowing and taxation levels are in
:12:49. > :12:54.these other countries which use the euro. Is this a crunch issue for
:12:55. > :12:58.you, the issue of currency? I think it goes to the heart, David, as to
:12:59. > :13:02.whether or not we should go for separation and independence, or
:13:03. > :13:07.whether to keep the pound the best thing to do is stay within the UK. I
:13:08. > :13:11.think currency, frankly, is about the most important thing we can
:13:12. > :13:15.think about. It affects us all, at any stage of life. There is no way
:13:16. > :13:22.of not having sterling which would work for Scotland? Having its own
:13:23. > :13:27.pound, or the euro? Theoretically, Scotland as an independent currency
:13:28. > :13:33.could float its own currency. I think currency is a crunch issue,
:13:34. > :13:39.yes. Why could it not float its own currency? Every expert has said that
:13:40. > :13:43.is a very risky thing to do. You immediately placed yourself at the
:13:44. > :13:47.mercy... Hang on, you have had an extensive survey. The markets,
:13:48. > :13:52.David, would determine the worth of your currency. You would have no
:13:53. > :13:55.control over that. With the pound, we have an established, tried and
:13:56. > :14:00.proven currency which has actually stood up well to the very
:14:01. > :14:05.considerable challenges. The markets decide the value of sterling. Yes,
:14:06. > :14:11.but they have made a good judgement on sterling. Why would they not on
:14:12. > :14:15.Scotland? There is no track record. The markets could say, we do not
:14:16. > :14:21.know what this currency is like, or the economic policies. You are not
:14:22. > :14:36.proposing it, but if you could not negotiate terms acceptable to you
:14:37. > :14:43.and Alex Salmond... I am going to go to the audience again. The woman on
:14:44. > :14:47.the left. I want to go back to Eddi Reader. I am sitting on the fence
:14:48. > :14:52.and I cannot make up my mind. There is a lot of scaremongering. You are
:14:53. > :15:00.saying all that about money, euros and pounds and it does not bother
:15:01. > :15:06.me. I do not care. You said that in February... Was it February? I was
:15:07. > :15:12.musing on it and I pose the question, what was this debate?
:15:13. > :15:19.Somebody must have got through to you. Nobody has got through to you
:15:20. > :15:24.about it. It is things that go right above your head. To get to the
:15:25. > :15:38.people that matter the most, you need to come down to their level.
:15:39. > :15:46.What would that be? We all need money. I find it surprising that you
:15:47. > :15:50.all clap that it is about that. Is it not about democracy? As so often
:15:51. > :15:55.in this debate, there is a bit of truth on both sides. I have no doubt
:15:56. > :15:59.that in answer to the original question, yes, we could become
:16:00. > :16:03.independent and continued to share a currency. I suspect the issue is a
:16:04. > :16:05.bit of truth on both sides. I have no doubt that in answer to the
:16:06. > :16:07.original question, yes, we could become independent and continued to
:16:08. > :16:19.share a currency. I suspect the issues the UK Government currently
:16:20. > :16:32.wants currency union would be increasingly different -- difficult.
:16:33. > :16:37.In the longer term, and it might be a matter of years or longer than
:16:38. > :16:41.that, but I do believe the Scottish Government should hold open the
:16:42. > :16:46.option of creating an independent currency. Otherwise, UK Government
:16:47. > :16:52.could impose limits on borrowing, public spending and services and
:16:53. > :16:57.impose some form of austerity on us. I think we need to get away from
:16:58. > :17:02.that. We have spent quarter of an hour on that and I want to get
:17:03. > :17:06.through two or three aspects. I will move on to a question which perhaps
:17:07. > :17:12.will touch on what you are saying. Chris Mulholland has the question.
:17:13. > :17:16.How will the Scottish Government accommodate the latest influx of
:17:17. > :17:25.European migrants in January giving the lack of jobs and housing? How
:17:26. > :17:31.will you... The SNP says it wants to encourage immigration. How will that
:17:32. > :17:36.work? I think that this should be prepared to welcome people to come
:17:37. > :17:40.here from other parts of the world. Especially from the European Union.
:17:41. > :17:46.If there are jobs and if they are coming here to make a contribution.
:17:47. > :17:50.I take your point that we still have over 7% of our own people unemployed
:17:51. > :17:54.so we should be looking at everything we can do to get them
:17:55. > :17:59.into work. The truth of the matter is, whatever happens, we have an
:18:00. > :18:03.ageing population in Scotland and that is the future. It will be
:18:04. > :18:07.especially true if Scotland were to be an independent country. We will
:18:08. > :18:14.need more people of working age to pay the pensions of people who are
:18:15. > :18:17.retired. At the moment, the way things are going, Scotland is going
:18:18. > :18:25.to be in an even more challenged position than the rest of the United
:18:26. > :18:29.Kingdom in that regard. What do you make of what the Prime Minister
:18:30. > :18:32.announced in Westminster about all these changes on benefits? You
:18:33. > :18:36.originally said it would put us on the wrong side of the European Union
:18:37. > :18:43.and I do not want to buy myself in that territory. I said, if you make
:18:44. > :18:47.these changes solely in relation to people coming from the new accession
:18:48. > :18:52.countries, Romania and Bulgaria, these changes that are being
:18:53. > :18:55.announced today, which are pretty straightforward and sensible
:18:56. > :18:59.managerial issues, if you come from another EU country, you're not going
:19:00. > :19:03.to be able to claim jobseeker's allowance for the first three months
:19:04. > :19:08.of being here. That will put us in the same position as Germany, the
:19:09. > :19:14.Netherlands and other places. I have absolutely no difficulty with that.
:19:15. > :19:21.The SNP has said Scotland needs immigration. What Scotland needs is
:19:22. > :19:31.a people to come here, work here and contribute here. We know that. There
:19:32. > :19:35.may not be too much difference between Alistair and I on this
:19:36. > :19:41.issue. The first point, we're a nation of immigrants. We are also a
:19:42. > :19:45.nation of immigrants. Scots and descendants of Scots are living in
:19:46. > :19:48.every corner of the globe. The starting principle should be we
:19:49. > :19:52.should give people coming to live in Scotland the same welcome as we
:19:53. > :19:57.would expect for Scots going to live in other parts of the world. There
:19:58. > :20:00.are big issues here that make for important discussions. I represent
:20:01. > :20:05.the part of Glasgow that has the biggest concentration of migrants
:20:06. > :20:10.from Central and Eastern Europe in glass go. There are challenges. It
:20:11. > :20:15.is not challenges associated with where people come from, it is
:20:16. > :20:21.challenge is challenges associated with the very significant and rapid
:20:22. > :20:24.rise in an area which was already densely populated. You need to make
:20:25. > :20:30.sure the investment, services and work done to integrate and make
:20:31. > :20:34.people welcome, we need to do that. The bigger issue is about the future
:20:35. > :20:42.need of Scotland for people to come and do skilled jobs here, to have
:20:43. > :20:47.targeted emigration -- immigration. Having an ageing population does not
:20:48. > :20:51.make us unique. It is a good thing that our population is ageing. We
:20:52. > :20:56.need to make sure a working population is going to support that
:20:57. > :21:00.ageing population. Taking away the right of young people we educate to
:21:01. > :21:05.stay here after they graduate to work, particularly after they get
:21:06. > :21:08.degrees, is the wrong thing to do. We could put in place policies that
:21:09. > :21:15.are sensible for our economy and that, I think, is one of the big
:21:16. > :21:19.benefits. Want to go back to the question. Chris Mulholland, you
:21:20. > :21:23.clearly had concerns. Can you explain your concerns? Both these
:21:24. > :21:29.speakers have said as far as they are concerned, everything is fine. I
:21:30. > :21:34.have no problem with people coming here with something to offer. It
:21:35. > :21:37.seems too easy for people to come into Scotland and the UK and is get
:21:38. > :21:41.preferential treatment over people already living here. I think that is
:21:42. > :21:45.wrong. I have been in a situation where I have worked every week since
:21:46. > :21:51.I left school, 23 years. I could not get a mortgage, I went to the local
:21:52. > :21:56.council office. They more or less said to me, you are the wrong
:21:57. > :22:02.nationality. To get anywhere on the housing list. I was forced into an
:22:03. > :22:10.astronomical private letter which I can barely afford and I cannot save
:22:11. > :22:15.up for a deposit. You are the wrong nationality in what sense? The
:22:16. > :22:17.people who are immigrants are placed higher up the housing list than
:22:18. > :22:21.people who are already living here and I think that is wrong. Do you
:22:22. > :22:27.think that is the doing of the Scottish Parliament or that of
:22:28. > :22:35.Westminster? I think it is both. Certainly, the issue is one reserved
:22:36. > :22:39.for Westminster. That is correct. I found myself in agreement with
:22:40. > :22:46.Nicola and Alistair. There is an issue for Scotland and that is we do
:22:47. > :22:49.know, without a shadow of doubt, that our population is ageing
:22:50. > :22:53.proportionately at a greater pace than the rest of the UK. As one of
:22:54. > :22:59.the other questions indicated, we have two good thought about how we
:23:00. > :23:05.support those who will have two have pensions paid and other service
:23:06. > :23:12.needs. I think it is the case that we are a welcoming country. We are a
:23:13. > :23:17.welcoming set of countries in the United Kingdom. We do need skills
:23:18. > :23:21.that are not currently available. I am delighted if people can bring
:23:22. > :23:25.these skills and can work. What Alistair was talking about was where
:23:26. > :23:32.people were coming and may very well have been expecting to go on benefit
:23:33. > :23:35.indefinitely, goes that if the system of welfare provision. What
:23:36. > :23:39.the UK Government has said in relation to Bulgaria and Rumania,
:23:40. > :23:49.no. You're going to have to qualify for benefits and you are simply not
:23:50. > :23:56.going to get that after a certain time. That is all about it. The
:23:57. > :24:00.women in green. Instead of encouraging migrants from whatever
:24:01. > :24:04.country they come from, I know that they have two and EU rules, let them
:24:05. > :24:11.come in. Instead of actively encouraging them to come in and
:24:12. > :24:13.bring skills with them, why don't we concentrate on upscaling and
:24:14. > :24:22.training and investing in our own young people?
:24:23. > :24:27.APPLAUSE I think that is a very important
:24:28. > :24:30.point. I do think, sometimes, the apparent failure to take action
:24:31. > :24:37.sometimes does cause Al-Qaeda conflict and tension around the
:24:38. > :24:48.debate on immigration. -- does cause conflict. We do need to tackle it in
:24:49. > :24:53.order to go forward. On the general question, most people would accept
:24:54. > :24:56.that immigration in principle is a good thing. It needs to be managed
:24:57. > :25:01.and it needs to be fair and effective and we should be clear
:25:02. > :25:05.about the rules that are applied to everyone. The rules should apply
:25:06. > :25:10.fairly. I would be very concerned at any housing person saying, you
:25:11. > :25:17.cannot get a house on the basis of your nationality. Do you think it
:25:18. > :25:20.happens? I assume he is not a liar. I am sure I would have agreement
:25:21. > :25:28.from my colleagues that that should be addressed. People should get
:25:29. > :25:33.housing on basis of need and not nationality. It will have
:25:34. > :25:42.implications on independence and we will need to think that through. I
:25:43. > :25:46.came up from Gretna Green, travelling and listening to the
:25:47. > :25:51.Richard Bacon show, they had several politicians and people talking on
:25:52. > :25:55.their about this very subject. David Cameron, the Labour politician was
:25:56. > :26:01.saying, they hate this policy he is bringing in from 1st of January. It
:26:02. > :26:05.is a little too late. If the SNP gets the referendum and they start
:26:06. > :26:09.pushing, Scotland is going to be wonderful, we are going to be the
:26:10. > :26:15.land of milk and honey and there will be more people coming. We will
:26:16. > :26:18.sort out David Cameron 's immigration problem out because they
:26:19. > :26:23.will not want to stay in England, they will want to come to Scotland.
:26:24. > :26:26.I am against it. We are the first line of defence and the ones whose
:26:27. > :26:32.houses are getting taken over. People may laugh. Anyone who does
:26:33. > :26:37.not know where they are going, they filter out from the border. They do
:26:38. > :26:44.not pick up point on the map and think, I'm going to Aberdeen or
:26:45. > :26:48.Falkirk. They say, where do we go? Talking about the first line of
:26:49. > :26:52.defence is a wee bit of overkill. It's kind of pretends that foreign
:26:53. > :26:59.equals bad and that immigrant equals threat. There are some real myths.
:27:00. > :27:07.Immigration contributes more to the economy across the whole of UK than
:27:08. > :27:13.welfare -- band received welfare payments. Where there are problems
:27:14. > :27:17.around the supply of social housing, and there are, we should be
:27:18. > :27:21.investing in building more social housing. Where there are problems
:27:22. > :27:25.around public services, we should be investing more in public services.
:27:26. > :27:30.Where there are economic problems which lead to a lack of skills and
:27:31. > :27:35.employment, that is what we should be investing in. You are not
:27:36. > :27:39.persuading him. He is shaking his head. We do not have the
:27:40. > :27:46.infrastructure to have thousands, and hundreds of thousands of people
:27:47. > :27:53.who may come in. These houses are not going to get made. There are not
:27:54. > :27:59.the schools in place. There are not hospitals and the Fire Service.
:28:00. > :28:02.There is capacity to invest in housing in Scotland for domestic
:28:03. > :28:06.need and migration need. That is something we should be doing
:28:07. > :28:10.regardless. If you look at the numbers coming in and out, it is
:28:11. > :28:15.mostly the same country that people are coming in and out of the UK to
:28:16. > :28:19.and from. Let's get this into a bit of perspective and recognise that
:28:20. > :28:26.migration is as much an opportunity and we should not talk about it like
:28:27. > :28:32.that. Who is frightening new about this big influx of people? Who is
:28:33. > :28:36.frightening new about that? It is not a question of who is
:28:37. > :28:41.frightening, it is the reality. It is what is going to happen. We are a
:28:42. > :28:47.very prosperous European countries. All the other countries, the 29 that
:28:48. > :28:51.are in Europe, a lot of them are not as prosperous as we are. It is just
:28:52. > :28:56.natural that people will want to better themselves. They want to up
:28:57. > :29:00.skill themselves. They want to financially provide for their
:29:01. > :29:04.family. There has to be the infrastructure, the housing. When
:29:05. > :29:08.that gentleman up there cannot get a house, and he has lived and paid his
:29:09. > :29:14.taxes, gone to school, cannot get them, there is something morally
:29:15. > :29:22.wrong. Whoever told him that, has to be fired.
:29:23. > :29:31.We do not need Mr Cameron's suggestions that rich people should
:29:32. > :29:35.be able to move. Surely there is a question about membership of
:29:36. > :29:39.Europe. If we were an independent country, if we did not become a
:29:40. > :29:41.member of the European Union there would not be the issue of
:29:42. > :29:45.immigration, because the issue is migrants coming from the rest of
:29:46. > :29:50.Europe. You would like an independent Scotland to be outside
:29:51. > :29:54.the European Union? Not necessarily, but there does seem to be a question
:29:55. > :29:58.about whether we would automatically become members, given the comments
:29:59. > :30:02.from the Spanish Prime Minister. Do you think it is likely that it will
:30:03. > :30:08.not be automatic? I think it is like the currency debate, where it is
:30:09. > :30:11.something that people are putting up barriers at the moment but if we got
:30:12. > :30:17.a yes vote in the referendum it would not be such an issue. Is it
:30:18. > :30:22.really possible that Scotland would not be allowed into the EU, in your
:30:23. > :30:26.view, as an independent country? I think it is not automatic. I would
:30:27. > :30:30.hope Scotland could join the EU and be welcomed into it, but the
:30:31. > :30:34.critical issue is the conditions attached to that. In terms of the
:30:35. > :30:40.rebate, open borders, the euro, other member states, on whom we
:30:41. > :30:44.would need their unanimous agreement, would put conditions on
:30:45. > :30:46.that. It is the conditions attached to that which would materially
:30:47. > :30:52.affect life in Scotland going forward. You think it might be
:30:53. > :30:58.different from that position now. It could be very different. We might
:30:59. > :31:02.not get the rebate. We currently have the opt out on open borders and
:31:03. > :31:06.that might not apply, so it is very significant and there are no
:31:07. > :31:12.guarantees and the white paper from the SNP gave no guarantees or
:31:13. > :31:18.answers on this. To listen to Margaret Curran, you have to wonder
:31:19. > :31:26.how 150 countries have managed to become independent since the end of
:31:27. > :31:31.the Second World War. They clearly did not want to join the EU. Some of
:31:32. > :31:35.the members of that you are newly independent countries. If we vote
:31:36. > :31:40.yes next year, we do not become independent the day after. By
:31:41. > :31:47.definition, we negotiate the transition of our membership. We are
:31:48. > :31:51.not asking for any special terms. We are asking for the terms we have
:31:52. > :31:55.right now to continue. The bottom line is, is anybody seriously
:31:56. > :31:59.suggesting that Scotland, with everything we bring to the European
:32:00. > :32:09.table, would not be warmly welcomed as a continuing member? That is
:32:10. > :32:13.simply not credible. This is an endorsement of Scotland's strengths.
:32:14. > :32:18.This comes to the crux of it. Nicola says we are not asking for special
:32:19. > :32:21.terms. We have got special terms. If we walk away from the United
:32:22. > :32:26.Kingdom, we walk away from these special terms. That is the fact,
:32:27. > :32:30.that is what we heard from the Spanish Prime Minister, who told us,
:32:31. > :32:37.yes, you can apply but you will have two apply as a new entrant. We would
:32:38. > :32:42.not be able to get the same opportunities that we currently
:32:43. > :32:46.have. We got a pretty clear signal of that from the Spanish Prime
:32:47. > :32:54.Minister last night. The cars it is not in his interest to make it look
:32:55. > :32:58.easy for an independent Scotland. I know you want to send a signal to
:32:59. > :33:01.the Catalans, and he does not really support the idea that the Catalonian
:33:02. > :33:07.'s should decide their fate in a referendum. But the one thing I
:33:08. > :33:11.thought we all agreed about in this referendum was it is the decision of
:33:12. > :33:23.the Scottish people, not the Spanish prime minister. Briefly, what would
:33:24. > :33:27.not be available to Scotland that is available as a member of the United
:33:28. > :33:34.Kingdom? You have to wonder if Croatia, for example... We are
:33:35. > :33:37.talking about the United Kingdom. Croatia has been told she cannot
:33:38. > :33:45.have the same favourable terms as we have, but as joint anyway. So why
:33:46. > :33:48.would Croatia agree? What are the special terms? The rebate on budget
:33:49. > :34:01.contributions, the commitment to join the euro. The only risk of
:34:02. > :34:07.Scottish membership of the euro is the in-out referendum being promised
:34:08. > :34:11.by David Cameron. Perhaps the rest of the EU might be willing to accept
:34:12. > :34:20.the swap of an independent Scotland for Spain or Greece? Let's move on
:34:21. > :34:23.because we have many other questions. You can join in the
:34:24. > :34:43.debate at home by text or Twitter. Let's take this question from Carol
:34:44. > :34:46.Fox. The one certainty of independence after March 2016 would
:34:47. > :34:50.be that Scotland would never again be ruled by a Tory government. Is
:34:51. > :35:09.that not more than enough reason to vote yes? Margaret Curran, does that
:35:10. > :35:18.put you on the yes side? Well, there is a curious thing about democracy,
:35:19. > :35:22.and that is, you can't always guarantee what governments are going
:35:23. > :35:25.to be in the future. Let me say to you, do not make a decision, the
:35:26. > :35:31.momentous decision we have next year, just on the basis you think
:35:32. > :35:35.you can have a guarantee that Tories will never have power and influence
:35:36. > :35:37.in Scotland. Sometimes when I look at Alex Salmond and see what they
:35:38. > :35:42.are doing to the poverty programmes in Scotland, I have my doubts about
:35:43. > :35:48.some of the things that are currently happening. They have a lot
:35:49. > :35:52.of Tories on their side as well. If Scotland decide to vote Tory, then
:35:53. > :35:59.they decide to vote Tory. It does not make any difference. The point
:36:00. > :36:05.is that Scotland has the choice. Scotland has the choice. Not all the
:36:06. > :36:11.time. Are we a country? Of course we are, and a very proud nation and
:36:12. > :36:16.very patriotic. Then why ignore the mandate of the Scottish people then?
:36:17. > :36:22.I am not ignoring the mandate. I do not accept that. You know we vote
:36:23. > :36:28.centre left all the time. Please let me make the point. Why can't we have
:36:29. > :36:35.a government that reflects us. Why can't we do that? The last 16 years,
:36:36. > :36:39.Scotland has voted Labour and Scotland got a Labour government. We
:36:40. > :36:48.do get to vote in Scottish Parliament. They had to lean so far
:36:49. > :37:01.to the right that it was unrecognisable. And went toward in
:37:02. > :37:11.Iraq. I voted for that Labour. Hold on, hold on, hold on! Enough! Eddi,
:37:12. > :37:15.enough, for the moment, please. You are having a conversation among
:37:16. > :37:22.yourselves. There are four other people here and 120 audience
:37:23. > :37:25.members. I think the real reason Margaret Curran does not want
:37:26. > :37:35.independence is because she realises Labour will never be in power again
:37:36. > :37:41.in the UK. Not at all. You need the Scottish vote to get into
:37:42. > :37:44.Westminster. Four governments since 1945, Labour governments, have been
:37:45. > :37:48.supported by the Scottish vote and would not have been there if it had
:37:49. > :37:51.not happened. Annabel Goldie, what do you say to the question that the
:37:52. > :37:58.Tories would be dead meat in Scotland if Scotland votes
:37:59. > :38:01.independence? That is very in courage in, implying a present state
:38:02. > :38:06.of life, which I know there to be. I can understand why the lady poses
:38:07. > :38:14.the question and why Eddi launches into her impassioned diatribe. I
:38:15. > :38:19.actually think... I actually think there is something much deeper to
:38:20. > :38:25.this about the whole constitutional debate. Because actually there are
:38:26. > :38:29.many reasons why people may form a view. We have listened to some of
:38:30. > :38:33.the views from those who favour independence for Scotland. They can
:38:34. > :38:39.have that view, they are titled to it and I respect it. I would argue
:38:40. > :38:43.very strongly that if you do believe, and according to the
:38:44. > :38:46.opinion polls a lot of people do believe this, if you do believe that
:38:47. > :38:50.this extraordinary and unusual social and economic and political
:38:51. > :38:54.union which is the United Kingdom has actually worked well for the
:38:55. > :38:58.last 300 years, and that does not mean you always get the government
:38:59. > :39:01.you want at Westminster, for 13 years I did not get the government I
:39:02. > :39:05.wanted at Westminster, but I still believed in the concept of the
:39:06. > :39:09.United Kingdom, because I think it has served Scotland well and there
:39:10. > :39:13.is a lot of evidence to demonstrate how effective the union has been.
:39:14. > :39:16.What I am saying is that I think there are deeper, broader and bigger
:39:17. > :39:20.issues which should determine Scottish minds when they make that
:39:21. > :39:24.decision next year. For my own part, I have never said Scotland could not
:39:25. > :39:29.be independent. Theoretically, Scotland could be independent. That
:39:30. > :39:33.is not the question. The question is, which arrangement suits Scotland
:39:34. > :39:38.better? My apartment is that I think we have the best of both worlds. We
:39:39. > :39:43.have the benefit of ace drunk Scottish Parliament which looks
:39:44. > :39:46.after domestic issues, and we have the framework of the bigger
:39:47. > :39:50.partnership which gives arenas of influence on the international
:39:51. > :39:54.stage. We have seen that to good effect in recent days, whether the
:39:55. > :39:58.talks taking place about Iran, and how we stop Iran's nuclear
:39:59. > :40:02.programme, whether it is all of the help we are managing to give in the
:40:03. > :40:07.tragic situation confronting the Philippines, we are able to do all
:40:08. > :40:10.that. We would not have these arenas if we were independent, so there are
:40:11. > :40:27.bigger, broader issues than whether you like or do not like the Tories
:40:28. > :40:30.in Scotland. No wonder people become disinterested in politics when we
:40:31. > :40:37.have seen a display like this this evening, and just in the last few
:40:38. > :40:42.minutes. People want the facts that they can then make up their own
:40:43. > :40:52.minds. We want the truth. We want to know what is going to happen. OK, so
:40:53. > :40:56.you can have power with uncertainty, or you can have no power with
:40:57. > :41:02.uncertainty. Because nobody can tell us what is going to happen if we
:41:03. > :41:04.stick with the status quo. We have 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds
:41:05. > :41:09.getting the vote for the first time. They need to be helped to make up
:41:10. > :41:16.their mind. Therefore, they need the truth. We cannot have people
:41:17. > :41:20.bickering. You cannot turn on the TV or open a newspaper and get the
:41:21. > :41:26.facts. I had to find it on the internet, had to look for it. Do you
:41:27. > :41:32.believe there is a truth to be got at? I believe... I am not talking to
:41:33. > :41:36.you. Do you believe there is a truth to be got at, or do you believe it
:41:37. > :41:41.is a matter of judgement which nobody can ascertain at this stage?
:41:42. > :41:48.I do not think we have heard any truth from any of the politicians on
:41:49. > :41:52.this. We have published a White Paper and I hope people will read
:41:53. > :41:55.it. We have tried to answer as many questions as possible and we will
:41:56. > :42:00.answer more if we can. People have to look at the arguments and come to
:42:01. > :42:04.their own decision. On the democracy point, I am no fan of the Tories but
:42:05. > :42:11.for me this is not an anti-Tory point. It is a pro-democracy point.
:42:12. > :42:15.Never in my life has Scotland voted Tory and yet for more than half of
:42:16. > :42:20.my life we had a Tory government. That is not democratic and cannot be
:42:21. > :42:24.right. With independence, we do not get landed with a government we have
:42:25. > :42:29.rejected. I do not understand the Labour position on the referendum.
:42:30. > :42:32.On many social and economic things, Labour supporters, SNP supporters
:42:33. > :42:37.probably want much the same things. We want a fairer economy, a decent
:42:38. > :42:41.welfare state, to see the back of nuclear weapons, and we are far more
:42:42. > :42:45.likely to get these things through independence than through Labour
:42:46. > :42:54.teaming up with the Tories in a Better Together campaign. Wouldn't
:42:55. > :42:57.the argument about being represented by Tories for a long period of time
:42:58. > :43:00.and not getting what you want, wouldn't that be equally applied to
:43:01. > :43:05.parts of England that are consistently Labour voting and
:43:06. > :43:08.support Tory governments, and parts of Britain that are consistently
:43:09. > :43:14.Tory voting and support Labour governments? Why should Scotland be
:43:15. > :43:17.so special? My grandmother was from Sunderland and that part of England
:43:18. > :43:23.I am sure does not like Tory government is any more than we do.
:43:24. > :43:26.You are not saying independence for Sunderland. My grandmother probably
:43:27. > :43:31.would have argued that, but that is a different story. We are a nation
:43:32. > :43:34.and we have the opportunity to assert that, to be independent and
:43:35. > :43:39.take our own decisions. That is what it is about. I believe passionately
:43:40. > :43:43.in the social, cultural, family union with other parts of the UK,
:43:44. > :43:53.but I want us to be politically and economically responsible and we only
:43:54. > :43:59.get that if we are independent. Alistair Carmichael. The lady in
:44:00. > :44:07.blue said this was bound for politics because we were all
:44:08. > :44:13.bickering. -- bad. I have two point out it is the one non-politician in
:44:14. > :44:21.the middle who is bickering. It is my home and it is where I live. I
:44:22. > :44:27.live here as well. I am a Scot and I am also passionate about being
:44:28. > :44:30.British. It is possible to have more than one national identity. We have
:44:31. > :44:39.lived with that for long enough. Part of the danger is how you
:44:40. > :44:43.consider things in a referendum with how you would consider them at an
:44:44. > :44:47.election. In an election, if you make a decision and decide to vote
:44:48. > :44:53.for a government you do not burn like, you can change it at the next
:44:54. > :44:57.general election. -- then like. If we make the wrong decision next
:44:58. > :45:05.September, if we vote for an independence we do not like, there
:45:06. > :45:12.is no going back. I am afraid Nicola just does not seem to get the grasp
:45:13. > :45:19.of democracy. In my community, I live in Otley, we have never voted
:45:20. > :45:25.for the Nationalists. -- I live in Orkney. We still have a Nationalist
:45:26. > :45:29.government. That is how democracy works. Are you saying it is
:45:30. > :45:44.undemocratic to have a vote on independence? Absolutely not. Who
:45:45. > :45:48.says we cannot go back? All I am saying is why have we not got the
:45:49. > :45:52.power to make the decision? If we speak to the English about what kind
:45:53. > :45:58.of alliances we have, why do we have to have this old, ancient empire
:45:59. > :46:03.structure. I think they could do with a bit of a rejuvenation of the
:46:04. > :46:07.electoral system as well. The women in the bedroom from the back. You do
:46:08. > :46:20.not need to be nationalist to vote yes. Working-class women are not
:46:21. > :46:28.able to make equal pay claims in Scotland. No one in Scotland ever
:46:29. > :46:32.voted for that. If you want to change that their new boat for other
:46:33. > :46:39.parties at the next general election. -- then you vote for other
:46:40. > :46:46.parties at the next general election. I want to start actually
:46:47. > :46:50.by agreeing with something that Annabel from the Conservatives and
:46:51. > :46:54.Margaret from the Labour Party said. It is a deeper, longer-term issue
:46:55. > :46:59.than who will form the next government. I hope if you are
:47:00. > :47:02.undecided, or if you are sat at home watching the programme and you are
:47:03. > :47:07.undecided, I hope you do not make the decision on who the next
:47:08. > :47:12.government will be. I have made my decision on the basis of a political
:47:13. > :47:16.landscape I think needs to be fundamentally challenged. The UK
:47:17. > :47:21.political landscape, whichever party is in power, has been delivering
:47:22. > :47:26.minor variations on a centre-right scheme for far too long. It is the
:47:27. > :47:30.opportunity for fundamental change. I think we will get that changes we
:47:31. > :47:35.decide to take responsibility for ourselves and build our own
:47:36. > :47:38.political culture in Scotland, our own political landscape which
:47:39. > :47:43.reflects the values of the Scottish people. It is not easy and it is not
:47:44. > :47:52.a guarantee. The only way to guarantee failing to achieve that is
:47:53. > :47:55.not to try. The woman in red. We are talking about democracy and
:47:56. > :47:58.democracy for Scotland and the future of Scotland. Democracy is
:47:59. > :48:02.something Scotland is very passionate about. I would like to
:48:03. > :48:08.ask Alistair Carmichael to explain the democracy of him bolstering a
:48:09. > :48:15.Tory government, imposing legislation in Scotland like the
:48:16. > :48:22.bedroom tax. Also the these good job tribunal is, except read. How can he
:48:23. > :48:36.possibly justify that to be Scottish people? -- also the fees for job
:48:37. > :48:40.tribunal 's. It is the government of the United Kingdom. The two parties
:48:41. > :48:45.in the coalition across the whole of the United Kingdom got 57% of the
:48:46. > :48:54.votes. I think we are perfectly entitled to Govan. Let me take
:48:55. > :48:59.another point. Margarets, four years, the Labour Party in Scotland
:49:00. > :49:09.says do not vote SNP or the Tories will get in. -- Margret. There is a
:49:10. > :49:14.basic premise I would put forward. I think we have a strong Scottish
:49:15. > :49:18.parliament. Because we have a shared interest with the rest of the United
:49:19. > :49:22.Kingdom, I do not believe Scotland should pull away from that because
:49:23. > :49:28.of family and connections. I think the best way to do that if the
:49:29. > :49:33.alliance that Eddie talks about. We have a democratic structure in
:49:34. > :49:37.Scotland and a Democratic structure will shared interests. Let me
:49:38. > :49:41.finish. I think we have to make sure we put forward these arguments. You
:49:42. > :49:46.can have a strong Scottish parliament but you also, where you
:49:47. > :49:51.have shared interests, be it the currency or macro economic issues, I
:49:52. > :49:54.ran some European membership, defence, foreign affairs, I think
:49:55. > :50:01.that is best governed by having the UK Parliament with representation
:50:02. > :50:07.across the UK and is accountable to the people it represents. Want to
:50:08. > :50:11.take the woman there. Can I ask the panel, if we vote for a yes vote
:50:12. > :50:15.next year and the SNP did not get in, is there anything in the White
:50:16. > :50:20.Paper, all these promises that have been given to us in this huge
:50:21. > :50:26.document yesterday, that any of the other parties would accept? Would
:50:27. > :50:31.they take that on board or would a completely new paper be written up?
:50:32. > :50:36.All the political parties will put forward the manifesto. The yes or no
:50:37. > :50:41.choice on independence is simply about that question, should Scotland
:50:42. > :50:44.govern itself and make its own decisions decided by the Scottish
:50:45. > :50:49.Parliament and the political balance that the people of Scotland choose
:50:50. > :50:53.to put into that Parliament? There are things in the White Paper that
:50:54. > :51:06.the SNP has put forward which sound like political proposals, like
:51:07. > :51:11.childcare. It is like a manifesto for an election rather than
:51:12. > :51:16.independence. We have been very open about that. Some things are very
:51:17. > :51:20.important in terms of fundamentals like the currency and to the EU. We
:51:21. > :51:24.have said we want to demonstrate and illustrate how you can use the
:51:25. > :51:29.powers of independence to make Scotland better and grow the
:51:30. > :51:32.economy. That is why we have put forward proposals. You are
:51:33. > :51:44.absolutely right, we may not be the government. We have managed to do it
:51:45. > :51:48.in Westminster. Childcare in the rest of the United Kingdom is far
:51:49. > :51:52.ahead of where it is in Scotland. You have the power, you have the
:51:53. > :52:02.money, why don't you just get on with it? We can only do that if we
:52:03. > :52:08.are independent. We have had a lot of questions about Falkirk. One
:52:09. > :52:13.question from John McCall, on an issue that has been exercising the
:52:14. > :52:20.political classes and other people. My MP, Eric Joyce, has brought shame
:52:21. > :52:25.on for Kirk. Should his constituents and myself be able to vote for his
:52:26. > :52:36.dismissal? APPLAUSE
:52:37. > :52:41.In other words, Eric Joyce was fined ?3000 and banned from pubs and even
:52:42. > :52:46.a 12 month community order for committing an assault on another MP.
:52:47. > :52:52.Should you be able to get rid of him in this period or should he be able
:52:53. > :52:58.to sit there? I think lots of stuff goes on we do not get a clear
:52:59. > :53:02.picture of. There are definite agenda is going on. I think there
:53:03. > :53:07.has been some sneaky behaviour happening. I do not want to be
:53:08. > :53:13.trashing all trade unions because people make mistakes or Eric Joyce,
:53:14. > :53:18.I do not really... I do not live in this part of the country and I do
:53:19. > :53:25.not know much about him. I know he punched somebody in the face. I am
:53:26. > :53:31.not clear what is going on between Unite and the Labour Party. Unite
:53:32. > :53:38.are accused of fixing the choice of candidate. Eric Joyce did bring
:53:39. > :53:45.shame on for Kirk and the Labour Party and we were right to suspend
:53:46. > :53:51.him. Should it go to the wider population? The legislation did not
:53:52. > :53:56.come forward in the House of Commons. It becomes a very complex
:53:57. > :54:00.process and that will need to be discussed. As Labour come clean
:54:01. > :54:11.about what goes on in the selection process? -- has Labour come clean?
:54:12. > :54:16.When concerned became public, the Labour Party took immediate action
:54:17. > :54:20.to deal with that. We put the constituency into special measures.
:54:21. > :54:29.You bring in senior officials. What we did do was to ensure that the
:54:30. > :54:35.members, through that investigation, the members were now floating in the
:54:36. > :54:39.new selection procedure all predated any of the concerns. Has Labour come
:54:40. > :54:49.out with a clean face from this, do you think? It has not been the
:54:50. > :54:58.happiest of experiences. Has it all being cleared up? All parties have
:54:59. > :55:03.problem with candidates. That has happened in Scotland in the recent
:55:04. > :55:07.period. You must investigate it. What is important is moving forward.
:55:08. > :55:22.It is about addressing the needs of the people of Falkirk will stop we
:55:23. > :55:26.have a good candidate. What has happened to Falkirk is very
:55:27. > :55:37.unfortunate. I think it is regrettable that, I am a
:55:38. > :55:40.politician, I am acutely aware that the public perception of politicians
:55:41. > :55:52.is not high. When something like this happens, it reaffirms public
:55:53. > :55:57.perception. I think that is profoundly regrettable. There are
:55:58. > :56:02.broader strands and two things will have helped. I do not think a bad
:56:03. > :56:08.smell will go away unless whatever the report was that the Labour Party
:56:09. > :56:15.commissioned is made public. Why should it not be made public? You
:56:16. > :56:20.have suffered. You have been the victims. Another aspect is
:56:21. > :56:26.troubling. Let me say I believe in trade unions. That may sound
:56:27. > :56:32.improbable. Responsible trade unions have an important role to play. I am
:56:33. > :56:38.deeply concerned at the way Unite has operated. Since Ed Miliband
:56:39. > :56:49.became leader of the Labour Party, the biggest element of donations has
:56:50. > :56:55.come from Unite. All of that is made public. There is no dependents to
:56:56. > :57:01.the extent that Labour is dependent on trade unions. Why can't Labour
:57:02. > :57:07.disengaged itself from Unite, come clean, hold its hands up and say, we
:57:08. > :57:14.are trying to put it right. Why is Ed Miliband not doing that? This
:57:15. > :57:25.whole thing stems back from the time when the Labour Party
:57:26. > :57:30.disenfranchised Dennis Canervan. He was an excellent MP for this area.
:57:31. > :57:35.Eric Joyce made it no easier. When the whole thing started, he should
:57:36. > :57:39.have stepped down immediately. The thing has been started by the fact
:57:40. > :57:43.we have got, if you like, a clean slate coming up with the new
:57:44. > :57:49.selection of the new three candidates. I think the whole thing
:57:50. > :57:56.is, our MP, Mr Joyce, should have stepped down immediately. Falkirk
:57:57. > :58:01.has had a bad press because of that. I will have two stop there. We have
:58:02. > :58:07.run out of time. I have two stop or I shall be hung, drawn and
:58:08. > :58:12.quartered, which I would not like. Next week we will be in east London.
:58:13. > :58:17.It is on the day of the Chancellor 's prebudget report. Politicians
:58:18. > :58:21.will include the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, David Davis for the
:58:22. > :58:26.Conservatives, Mary Beard will be on the panel and Amanda Patel. The week
:58:27. > :58:32.after that we will be in Swansea. If you want to come to ease London or
:58:33. > :58:42.Swansea, applied to the address on the screen. -- east London.
:58:43. > :58:53.The debate goes on on radio five live. From Falkirk, thank you to our
:58:54. > :59:18.panel and all of you who have taken part in the programme. Good night.
:59:19. > :59:21.But you're saying the scale of theft is huge.