:00:00. > :00:17.Tonight, we're in London and welcome to Question Time.
:00:18. > :00:20.Welcome to you at home. Welcome to our audience here who will ask the
:00:21. > :00:25.questions and arguing with our panel. Our panel, the Liberal
:00:26. > :00:29.Democrats Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander. Labour's
:00:30. > :00:33.Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Rachel Reeves. The Conservative,
:00:34. > :00:38.David Davis who lost out to David Cameron for the leadership of the
:00:39. > :00:44.Tory Party. The LBC Radio presenter Nick Ferrari and Professor of
:00:45. > :00:53.classic classics at Cambridge University, Mary Beard.
:00:54. > :00:56.APPLAUSE #12k3w4r thank you very much. We
:00:57. > :01:02.take our first question from Thomas Rous, please.
:01:03. > :01:05.In right of the PISA International Student Assessment Survey sub pished
:01:06. > :01:11.this week, is it time -- published this week, is it time to send our
:01:12. > :01:16.children to school in South Korea? This was the view that the UK was
:01:17. > :01:22.way, way behind 20 or so other countries. Mary Beard, should we go
:01:23. > :01:26.to South Korea? I happen to have an ex-student who is teaching in a
:01:27. > :01:34.school in South Korea. She e-mailed me a couple of days ago and said you
:01:35. > :01:41.don't know how difficult it is to teach children, who were taught to
:01:42. > :01:46.ask a question was a weakness. Everything we see about the
:01:47. > :01:53.politician politicians being mesmerised by these PISA tables,
:01:54. > :01:58.seems to me to be bonkers. There's - clearly you can learn some
:01:59. > :02:06.things about microdifferences about countries in the UK, for example.
:02:07. > :02:11.But if you imagine that Shanghai was a dream ticket for kid's education,
:02:12. > :02:15.because they are doing well at these tests to which they have been
:02:16. > :02:21.adequately taught, you would be mad. I think that, and there are two
:02:22. > :02:25.problems here - and I think one is there is no right way of England
:02:26. > :02:30.kating kids. If we could realise there wasn't a right answer, there
:02:31. > :02:34.are some ways we can -- educating kids. If we could realise there
:02:35. > :02:40.wasn't a right answer, there are some ways we can.
:02:41. > :02:43.There is nothing simple and there's no recipe for success. Also you have
:02:44. > :02:50.to see that there's almost no country in the world that doesn't
:02:51. > :02:54.somehow project its anti-sys about -- anxieties about itself. If we
:02:55. > :03:00.were to go to Shanghai, we would find people worrying about stress,
:03:01. > :03:05.over-work, kids at school for 12 hours a day. Extra classes,
:03:06. > :03:10.weekends, no music. We would find people coming to the UK to say, so,
:03:11. > :03:15.how do you do it in the UK? How do you get a bit more laid back? The
:03:16. > :03:22.real key is, just to say education is a very inexact science and no
:03:23. > :03:28.single table, as we know from league tables, will give you the right
:03:29. > :03:31.answer to what will work. So, it should be...
:03:32. > :03:36.APPLAUSE Nick Ferrari? I am greatly
:03:37. > :03:41.disheartened by someone as well educated as you taking that stance.
:03:42. > :03:46.I would suggest there is a reason why schools in Asia are outstripping
:03:47. > :03:50.us in Britain. That is one word - thatted is competition. On the --
:03:51. > :03:56.and that is competition. On the radio show we phoned three
:03:57. > :04:01.countries. We phoned Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong. When a
:04:02. > :04:06.child enters a class they know where they are, whether they are 19th or
:04:07. > :04:11.25th. The teachers work around and they try and bring them up. It is
:04:12. > :04:14.called competition. As and when you go into the real world, that is
:04:15. > :04:19.called competition. That was outlawed in this country by mostly
:04:20. > :04:24.Labour, not solely, by mostly Labour, left wing trendy
:04:25. > :04:31.educationalists who said no child could ever win a prize, don't worry
:04:32. > :04:39.if they cannot spelt, don't worry if they don't have a piece of paper.
:04:40. > :04:46.What a load of cobblers and we are reaping the price!
:04:47. > :04:50.Danny Alexander? I am a parent of two young children. I find these
:04:51. > :04:55.tables worrying, actually. And particularly in the areas of maths
:04:56. > :05:01.and science, where we know that if, as a country, we want to succeed in
:05:02. > :05:10.the modern word, that educating people in maths and science - the
:05:11. > :05:14.academic at the OECD said math sss the best protection against
:05:15. > :05:17.unemployment. If you think about the industries where we will succeed we
:05:18. > :05:23.need to improve our performance. That is why we need to make sure we
:05:24. > :05:28.get rid of some of the disadvantages in our education system. Kids from
:05:29. > :05:34.poor backgrounds have done worse for a long time. We are introducing a
:05:35. > :05:42.pupil premium. Today, I am very proud I have announced we'll give
:05:43. > :05:51.free school meals... Can I say... ? No, let me finish. ?150 million and
:05:52. > :05:56.you had not budgeted for. You tax all of us and you turn around and
:05:57. > :06:00.say we just need another ?150 million. Let me finish the point.
:06:01. > :06:05.Absolutely - the money comes from the taxes of people in this room and
:06:06. > :06:08.from money that the Government has raised in many different ways. The
:06:09. > :06:13.point is that actually when kids have a full stomach at school they
:06:14. > :06:18.learn better. All the studies show that actually with free school meals
:06:19. > :06:22.you have kids having a 20% advantage in their education educational
:06:23. > :06:26.achievements. The truth is, as a country, we let our kids down in the
:06:27. > :06:31.first years of education and they never catch up again. That is why
:06:32. > :06:35.focussing on that age group is so important.
:06:36. > :06:44.As well as mentioning South Korea, we have to mention the fact that the
:06:45. > :06:50.kids in South Korea have a much higher rate of suicide - for young
:06:51. > :06:56.children. So this is as well something to mention. You think what
:06:57. > :07:01.- they are over-pressed. What do you think? Education is key to a
:07:02. > :07:06.competitive economy. This is the tip of the iceberg. They will trickle
:07:07. > :07:09.down into our university system. I have been to Cambridge and
:07:10. > :07:13.competition is key. It is very stressful. Everyone wants to come to
:07:14. > :07:17.these institutions and wants to come to the UK. I don't want to lose that
:07:18. > :07:21.external investment. Rachel Reeves? I don't want my
:07:22. > :07:26.children to go to school in South Korea. I want them to go to school
:07:27. > :07:31.in this country. The results from the PISA league tables are a wake-up
:07:32. > :07:37.call to us. We need to do better if we want to compete for jobs in the
:07:38. > :07:42.future. The gentleman said education is dee a successful economy. It is
:07:43. > :07:48.-- key for a successful economy I is also for those who compete. I went
:07:49. > :07:52.to my local state school, in south-east London, I got a fantastic
:07:53. > :07:57.education there. It was also at a time there were huge cuts to
:07:58. > :08:04.budgets. My sixth form was two prefab huts. There were never enough
:08:05. > :08:07.textbooks to go around. We have seen a huge transformation of schools in
:08:08. > :08:12.this country over the past 15 years. We need to do better still. I think
:08:13. > :08:22.the PISA results show we have to do that. Why are we 25th in math, 23rd
:08:23. > :08:26.in science? We have improved. Other countries are leapfrogging and doing
:08:27. > :08:33.better. We need to redouble our efforts. That means having the best
:08:34. > :08:39.teach teachers in our schools. We are still really struggling to
:08:40. > :08:43.recruit enough good teachers in maths and science. If we want to
:08:44. > :08:47.have kids who succeed in the future, we need some of the best into the
:08:48. > :08:51.hardest schools like Hackney and other areas of London, because that
:08:52. > :08:56.is what will make the difference to young people. It is fine for Mary to
:08:57. > :09:00.say you have to have creativity and all of those things, also young
:09:01. > :09:05.people have to leave schools with decent GCSEs if they are going to
:09:06. > :09:09.get jobs. There's no question but to come back to PISA. What I wonder is
:09:10. > :09:17.how many people have looked at the questions in these tests? What does
:09:18. > :09:20.it matter? Britain comes 25th. What does it matter!
:09:21. > :09:27.This is from the reading test. It is a test that shows you a receipt from
:09:28. > :09:32.a camera shop. At the bottom it says thank you for your kus up the. The
:09:33. > :09:36.question is, why do you -- custom. The question is, why do you think
:09:37. > :09:40.the shop said that. The correct answer, for which you get full
:09:41. > :09:44.marks, is in order to build up a relationship with the customer. If
:09:45. > :09:48.you were to put in order to show that the customer is valued, they
:09:49. > :09:53.would get no marks. Now, when you think, when you look
:09:54. > :09:57.through these - these questions, sometimes multiple choice, sometimes
:09:58. > :10:02.not, it is all available on the web and you say, these are the kinds of
:10:03. > :10:07.questions that Governments are using as accurate tests of how our kids
:10:08. > :10:11.are doing - I think that is crazy. It is not a wake-up call...
:10:12. > :10:17.Pla APPLAUSE
:10:18. > :10:23.David Davis? I could not disagree with Mary more. All these tests are
:10:24. > :10:29.rough and ready. None of them are perfect. But Other surveys show much
:10:30. > :10:35.the same thing. One thing they show over and over again is that the
:10:36. > :10:40.people who Come top, the countries who come top tend to be South Korea,
:10:41. > :10:46.Singapore - the various provinces of China. In other words the people who
:10:47. > :10:49.are showing clean heels in terms of the economic competition. They are
:10:50. > :10:54.winning, they are willing because their people are well educated. In
:10:55. > :11:01.this country and it exposes something Boris referred to, that is
:11:02. > :11:09.in this country... Boris? Johnson. I am in London - I thought everyone
:11:10. > :11:15.would know who I was talking about. Boris Johnson - the Mayor of London
:11:16. > :11:19.said what? He highlighted a point - we have three classes of schools in
:11:20. > :11:25.this country. We have standard state schools, state grammar schools and
:11:26. > :11:29.private schools. The private schools are as good as any of the world, the
:11:30. > :11:32.grammars are. Some of the comprehensives are. Most of our
:11:33. > :11:35.state sector does not compete well enough.
:11:36. > :11:40.This is what all these things are telling you and letting down an
:11:41. > :11:44.entire generation. If you select who goes to your
:11:45. > :11:51.school, of course you will get better results. If you are selecting
:11:52. > :11:55.on academic ability and parental in income, of course. I think our state
:11:56. > :12:02.schools should be applauded taking kids from all backgrounds.
:12:03. > :12:06.The woman there? Do you not think schools are focussing too much on
:12:07. > :12:10.getting correct statistics rather than focussing on the pupils
:12:11. > :12:14.themselves? Danny Alexander, do you want to answer that point? That is
:12:15. > :12:17.not my experience. I think that schools should focus on the
:12:18. > :12:21.performance of their pupils and on the well being of pupils too.
:12:22. > :12:26.Actually, I totally agree with what Rachel said. I went to my local
:12:27. > :12:33.comprehensive in the Highlands of Scotland. I had a good education
:12:34. > :12:37.there. This argue you should have an elitist education system is the
:12:38. > :12:41.wrong argument. Actually if you go to South Korea you find they have
:12:42. > :12:45.been able to develop a system which offers excellence in education for
:12:46. > :12:49.every child in that society. The idea we have to say unfortunately so
:12:50. > :12:54.many of our schools are not good enough and we'll only have a few
:12:55. > :12:59.which are good is a recipe of disaster. We have the most stratfied
:13:00. > :13:03.country in the world today. Look at how our country runs. People from a
:13:04. > :13:07.working class background have a low chance of getting on in Britain
:13:08. > :13:14.today, that is because of the education system. Why the grammar
:13:15. > :13:19.schools are the greatest tools for socially enabling ever known.
:13:20. > :13:24.It is a fantastic opportunity for a kid, regardless of how much mum and
:13:25. > :13:29.dad have in the bank. They should be brought back tomorrow.
:13:30. > :13:35.APPLAUSE I would definitely say that I think
:13:36. > :13:40.the system is going through some issues because of mol mollycoddling.
:13:41. > :13:44.When I went to school, we were placed on the ladder, you knew where
:13:45. > :13:47.you were on the ladder. When you went home at the end of term and you
:13:48. > :13:53.told your parent you were last, you felt a level of shame. I don't
:13:54. > :13:58.believe it is right that children can graduate at 16, 17, without
:13:59. > :14:02.basic maths and we think this is a system to adopt in today's age. It
:14:03. > :14:06.is wrong. The earlier we start to address these issues from, a very
:14:07. > :14:10.young age, the better it will be. By making schools more competitive?
:14:11. > :14:20.Definitely! Yes, you, Sir? The structure in
:14:21. > :14:26.South Korea is not prevalent in our schools here. And you, Sir, in the
:14:27. > :14:32.second row. My mum is from Malaysia. I have cousins there too.
:14:33. > :14:37.The difference between them being taught in school and I was taught
:14:38. > :14:41.here. There is a culture within the fams will that -- families that kind
:14:42. > :14:45.of pushes them along. I went to an independent school, so most of my
:14:46. > :14:50.mates were pushed by their parents. I see sometimes, I am not saying all
:14:51. > :14:54.parents, but there's no culture to push them along as well. I don't
:14:55. > :14:57.know if it is something that could be worked upon as well. I think
:14:58. > :15:02.sometimes the tables don't really show everything as well. Are you
:15:03. > :15:08.saying in Malaysia it is normal for children to be pushed more? They
:15:09. > :15:14.have outside tuorring. All my suss tins, once they -- all my cousins,
:15:15. > :15:17.once they finish school they go to a tuor.
:15:18. > :15:28.-- tutor. Why did both governments allow grade
:15:29. > :15:33.inflations year after year, why did you allow that? I was fortunate to
:15:34. > :15:38.get through on O levels just before GCSEs came behind. I saw it degrade
:15:39. > :15:42.the A-levels. I saw it degrade the universities. They lost a whole
:15:43. > :15:46.year. Now why did the politicians allow that to happen? Just for your
:15:47. > :15:51.cheap political tricks. That's the future of the country you're talking
:15:52. > :15:55.about. The generation ahead. I think the big challenge we've got in our
:15:56. > :15:59.education system today is not too many kids getting good results, but
:16:00. > :16:05.too many kids not getting decent GCSE results. We should be - Sorry,
:16:06. > :16:10.you're not answering his point. You make it sound like every kid leaves
:16:11. > :16:16.school with straight As. We still have 40% of kids who aren't leaving
:16:17. > :16:21.school... Year after year it went up. He's right. No, but there's
:16:22. > :16:28.better teaching. There's better teaching in schools. Why do they do
:16:29. > :16:32.the exams of years past and have the same rate as before, you just have
:16:33. > :16:35.higher grade. Partly because different things matter. Yeah the
:16:36. > :16:39.future of the children matter. I don't take my children to school in
:16:40. > :16:45.the UK... You asked the question and I'm trying to give an answer. If you
:16:46. > :16:49.today went and looked at a GCSE paper in physics, science or in
:16:50. > :16:53.English literature for A-level for further maths, I bet you would
:16:54. > :16:56.struggle with a lot of those questions. I don't think they are
:16:57. > :17:00.simple questions. I don't think you should devalue the achievements of
:17:01. > :17:05.our young people, whether GCSEs, whether it's GNVQs, A-levels or
:17:06. > :17:09.university degrees. Kids are working incredibly hard. We put huge
:17:10. > :17:13.investment into schools and into teacher training. Those things do
:17:14. > :17:17.lead to better results. We should applaud that. I did mechanical
:17:18. > :17:20.engineering and the exams were tough. You had to remember the form
:17:21. > :17:29.Las before you actually had to go into the exam. Now they're given
:17:30. > :17:32.multiple choice. It's dumbed down. These children can only take the
:17:33. > :17:36.exams that are put in front of them. We must applaud what they do. You
:17:37. > :17:39.have to address the fact, particular under your Government, every year,
:17:40. > :17:43.supposedly the population got brighter and it's simply not true.
:17:44. > :17:46.Look at Manchester United, they're sinking like a stone, it doesn't
:17:47. > :17:52.always get there. That's the reality. The woman on the right.
:17:53. > :17:58.Yeah, I just want to agree with Mary and back up a point that point that
:17:59. > :18:02.the woman made there. South Korea has one of the highest suicide rates
:18:03. > :18:06.within high school students and you cannot just simply look at another
:18:07. > :18:10.nation with rose-tinted glasses based on facts and figures and
:18:11. > :18:14.statistics, having taught English in South Korea for four years, I can
:18:15. > :18:20.tell you it was really distressing to see the amount of competition
:18:21. > :18:24.that students were taught to, you know, utilise in everyday life. The
:18:25. > :18:29.stress that they were put under. There was students who were ten
:18:30. > :18:36.years old would come home at 10pm at night, being in private tuition up
:18:37. > :18:39.until then. It was really unhealthy and really quite distressing to
:18:40. > :18:42.witness. We can't just look at another nation with rose-tinted
:18:43. > :18:46.glasses. We have to look at everything.
:18:47. > :18:51.APPLAUSE Were you expected to put them under
:18:52. > :18:55.pressure too, as an English teacher? I taught in a state school, so there
:18:56. > :19:00.wasn't that much pressure on me. Most of the emphasis on their
:19:01. > :19:04.education is actually, well, it's normal for a South Korean child to
:19:05. > :19:11.go to a private institution and go and get after-school lessons until
:19:12. > :19:16.about 11pm. This starts about eight years old. Really it's quite
:19:17. > :19:19.serious. It puts into perspective this notion that competition is
:19:20. > :19:24.necessarily good. I absolutely take your point that some kids would go
:19:25. > :19:27.back home at the end of term, shamed by their position at the bottom of
:19:28. > :19:31.the ladder and determined to do better. But we also know that there
:19:32. > :19:35.are other kids who came home devastated by their position at the
:19:36. > :19:40.bottom of the ladder and never could ever get back into that subject
:19:41. > :19:45.again. It doesn't always work the same way.
:19:46. > :19:49.The lady there made a very important point. Too often we allow and
:19:50. > :19:52.tolerate the gaps in attainment to emerge at a young age. Your point
:19:53. > :19:56.about investing in kids when they're two, three, four, five, six years
:19:57. > :20:00.old, that's the most important time. Once the gap emerges, the history of
:20:01. > :20:05.our education system shows you it is never put back together again.
:20:06. > :20:08.Investing in kids with a young age, with high quality education is the
:20:09. > :20:11.best way to make sure every child has the best start in life. That's
:20:12. > :20:16.the best way to get a fairer society. Do you agree? I would
:20:17. > :20:19.agree. Though childhood suicide is obviously wrong, we have some
:20:20. > :20:24.lessons to learn. I mean, you can't have a situation where we say we
:20:25. > :20:29.don't want to put you under stress, we don't want you to compete. In the
:20:30. > :20:33.real world you compete. I work until 11pm at night. So the whole purpose
:20:34. > :20:39.of education is to prepare them for real life. I'm sorry, I don't
:20:40. > :20:46.believe we can cover our children from what life is really like.
:20:47. > :20:50.One more point. Quite a few points, one... Can you make one. OK then.
:20:51. > :20:54.The competition in very young children, I don't think is very
:20:55. > :20:57.healthy. It's OK for children to know their place in a class. I'm a
:20:58. > :21:00.primary teacher. If children know their place in a class, it's great
:21:01. > :21:04.if they've got the academic ability to get near the top, but if they
:21:05. > :21:09.haven't and they're constantly at the bottom, or bottom five in a
:21:10. > :21:14.class, year after year, that is no way that's good for them. That is so
:21:15. > :21:18.demoralising. What do you do then? You give them as much extra help as
:21:19. > :21:22.you can. Are you against what she was saying about children knowing
:21:23. > :21:26.their place? I am against it. It would be nicer if they didn't. I'd
:21:27. > :21:31.like to keep them closeted for a little while. Life is painful enough
:21:32. > :21:36.when they're older. Her point is that life is painful enough, you
:21:37. > :21:42.have to make it early on. Not at all. It depends what result you
:21:43. > :21:44.want. If you want these people to be interesting members of the
:21:45. > :21:48.community, whichever way they're contributing, making them feel
:21:49. > :21:57.failures at the age of five is not a great way to start.
:21:58. > :22:02.Sorry for those of you who wanted to get on this. If you're watching this
:22:03. > :22:16.at home, you can debate by text or Twitter.
:22:17. > :22:25.A question from Lisa Lariccia. I'm 31, should I expect to work until
:22:26. > :22:30.I'm 70. We know that today the announcement was made, you have to
:22:31. > :22:33.expect to work until you were 68 or 69 very soon, probably 70 and then
:22:34. > :22:39.75 and goodness knows where we'll be. David Davies? Well, the truth of
:22:40. > :22:43.the matter is we all have to work longer than our previous generations
:22:44. > :22:47.did. I think and in that respect the Government is right. It can't defy
:22:48. > :22:58.mathematics. We haven't got the money to pay for the length of
:22:59. > :23:03.retirement. The problem in the policy we have got, whereas
:23:04. > :23:08.everybody around this table have no trouble to work until they're 70.
:23:09. > :23:12.They do a job which is not particularly manual. If I dug
:23:13. > :23:15.trenches or I was a nurse and lifted patients a lot, had a lot of
:23:16. > :23:20.physical activity, I think that's different. I think we really have to
:23:21. > :23:25.think, as we extend the ages higher up, what sort of occupation the
:23:26. > :23:29.people have, what sort of health do they have? And address that. We have
:23:30. > :23:32.20 years to do it. It's not something we have to think about
:23:33. > :23:37.very quickly. We should address the issue of not everybody retiring at
:23:38. > :23:41.the same age. People with very tough jobs, physical jobs should have a
:23:42. > :23:50.better crack at having a decent retirement than they currently do.
:23:51. > :23:53.APPLAUSE Well, a couple of years ago, the
:23:54. > :23:58.Government tried to increase the state pension age for women in their
:23:59. > :24:03.mid-50s with just six years' notice. I thought that was totally wrong.
:24:04. > :24:08.Peep need -- people need time to prepare for the future. You need
:24:09. > :24:11.years notice so that you can save more, so you can train, so you know
:24:12. > :24:15.how long you're going to be expected to be in the workforce. I do think
:24:16. > :24:19.it's right as people live longer and we should celebrate that, it's a
:24:20. > :24:21.huge achievement, put it down to our National Health Service that people
:24:22. > :24:24.are living longer and healthier lives. So it's right that people
:24:25. > :24:28.work longer because if they don't, they'll have a poorer retirement
:24:29. > :24:32.because the money that you can save during working life won't be enough
:24:33. > :24:37.to support you during those years of retirement. But, David is right, we
:24:38. > :24:41.need to change quite a few things if this is going to be a reality. It's
:24:42. > :24:44.fine for us in the House of Commons to say to construction workers and
:24:45. > :24:49.shop workers, you have to work until you're 70. But if we're going to
:24:50. > :24:53.ensure that's fair and people can work in dignity until they're 70, we
:24:54. > :24:56.need to change the world of work as well. We need to ensure we offer the
:24:57. > :25:00.training to people in their 50les to get the jobs that are available. We
:25:01. > :25:05.need to work with employers to do more to value the experience that
:25:06. > :25:08.older workers have to offer, but also change those jobs, so sometimes
:25:09. > :25:13.they're not frontline workers, if you're a construction worker, you
:25:14. > :25:16.might not want to be up the scaffolding, but they can make a
:25:17. > :25:22.huge contribution. Are you alarmed at the prospect of working till
:25:23. > :25:26.you're 70 or more? It's not just the physically demanding jobs, I'm a
:25:27. > :25:32.social worker, so I think as well, jobs that also involve quite a lot
:25:33. > :25:38.of emotional stress, you do need to be well equipped and to think about
:25:39. > :25:45.always delivering quality. You go in to do meaningful work. If it's
:25:46. > :25:51.becoming quite a slog. You'd want to be excluded from the provision you
:25:52. > :25:55.retire at 70. Yes. Two-tier retirement. The nature of the work
:25:56. > :26:01.should be looked at. Taking lessons from politicians about pensions is
:26:02. > :26:08.like being lectured about sobriety about the Reverend flowers. These
:26:09. > :26:12.are the most Kos eked bunch of -- cossetted bunch of people you will
:26:13. > :26:18.come across. The sort of pensions that they will enjoy, not like you,
:26:19. > :26:23.they'll be slaving until you're 110 and lucky enough to get your first
:26:24. > :26:28.house when you're 90. They retire on the sort of pension that you and I
:26:29. > :26:33.would be north of ?2 million in a pension pot to generate. Unless you
:26:34. > :26:37.were Wayne Rooney or a hopeless BBC boss who have been slung out and
:26:38. > :26:45.given a payment, you're never going to have the money.
:26:46. > :26:50.You guys, I'm a 16-year-old, and you have spent the past ten minutes
:26:51. > :26:54.cueing -- accusing me of being a retard, I'm finding it really hard
:26:55. > :27:01.to accept that you're making me work until I'm 70, when A, I'm not
:27:02. > :27:07.promised a job when I leave uni, and I won't be able to get a house. What
:27:08. > :27:12.do I retire on? On the magical couch that my parents are going to leave
:27:13. > :27:17.me? And you'll be stacking shelves in B Q when you're 82. You're
:27:18. > :27:22.going to retire on the equivalent of a ?2 million pension, you have it
:27:23. > :27:26.curby and you're making life hell. If Nick is visiting this 16-year-old
:27:27. > :27:31.when he's stacking shelves at the age of 82 he'll be doing well. I
:27:32. > :27:34.want to pass my 11-plus. Maybe not. The answer to the question, both
:27:35. > :27:37.that gentleman's question and the original question, yes, you will
:27:38. > :27:42.have to work probably until you're 69 in your case, maybe 70 at your
:27:43. > :27:45.age, but and this is a consequence of some simple facts that
:27:46. > :27:51.politicians have ignored for a very long period of time. As health care
:27:52. > :27:54.improves, as societies improve, life expectancy is rising. People are
:27:55. > :27:58.living longer, healthier lives on average across our country and
:27:59. > :28:02.across the developed world. The fact is unless we set rules now about
:28:03. > :28:06.what proportion of your working life you'd expect to spend in retirement
:28:07. > :28:10.and how long you have to work for, then we simply won't be able to pay
:28:11. > :28:14.out. The state basic pension that everyone in this room would expect,
:28:15. > :28:17.much less to build up the entitlements in work-place pensions
:28:18. > :28:22.or other pension that's we can all afford. What about the two-tier
:28:23. > :28:28.retirement that was suggested, that people doing hard work or social
:28:29. > :28:33.workers can get an exception. I didn't include social workers.
:28:34. > :28:36.Social workers. In the argument there you hear part of it, every
:28:37. > :28:40.profession would say they have a special case. Make a special case
:28:41. > :28:44.for people who have physical labour? I spent quite a lot of time
:28:45. > :28:48.negotiating through tough changes to public service pensions, two years
:28:49. > :28:51.ago, including for MPs, changing the terms of pensions for a lot of
:28:52. > :28:55.public sector workers. It was quite unpopular with a lot of those groups
:28:56. > :28:58.because we had to put those pensions back on a footing that was
:28:59. > :29:01.affordable to the taxpayer and those people made a reasonable
:29:02. > :29:04.contribution. Every group says she need particular exceptions. The
:29:05. > :29:07.truth is every pension scheme has early retirement provisions within
:29:08. > :29:10.it. It's really the responsibility of the health care system and of
:29:11. > :29:13.other parts of society to make sure that people can live longer,
:29:14. > :29:17.healthier lives. You can't expect the pensions system, in this
:29:18. > :29:23.country, since Lloyd George, a liberal, first introduced the state
:29:24. > :29:25.pension back in the early part of the Twentieth Century, a common
:29:26. > :29:29.retirement age for everybody. I don't think the pensions system can
:29:30. > :29:33.take care of the problems in our health care system. There are
:29:34. > :29:36.objective differences between the effect on your health of digging a
:29:37. > :29:42.trench when you're 70 or being Chief Secetary when you're 70. The wear
:29:43. > :29:50.and tear on you is somewhat different. When I've been to a
:29:51. > :29:57.70-year-old nurse that has to lift me out of bed! It might take any two
:29:58. > :30:01.of us on the panel to do that particular job, Nick. I know who I'm
:30:02. > :30:05.picking. People also change jobs as they move through their lives.
:30:06. > :30:09.That's part of it. Actually, one of the things employers in this country
:30:10. > :30:12.need to get their heads around better, is that older workers can
:30:13. > :30:17.make a huge huge contribution. Dodging one question, somebody is
:30:18. > :30:20.digging trenches or building hougss, carrying hods of bricks, physical
:30:21. > :30:29.work, are you saying that the same rule would have to apply to them?
:30:30. > :30:36.I am saying there should be a single state pension age for everybody,
:30:37. > :30:40.yes. The woman at the back, yes? Hi there. I am a nurse. I would find it
:30:41. > :30:45.very difficult to lift this young man up over here and I'm in my 30s.
:30:46. > :30:49.There's a point here to be made that you can't put everybody under the
:30:50. > :30:53.same bracket. I agree with the social worker down here, not only
:30:54. > :30:57.are they physically straining jobs, but they are mentally straining as
:30:58. > :31:00.well. Sometimes you can go home absolutely exhausted by what you've
:31:01. > :31:05.had to deal with that day. I think you need to look at manual workers,
:31:06. > :31:09.nurses, professionals slightly differently.
:31:10. > :31:13.What is your thought to working still at 69? I don't think you will
:31:14. > :31:18.be able to provide quality care at that age. I work in a medical
:31:19. > :31:23.additions unit, which is linked to accident and emergency. We take
:31:24. > :31:30.emergencies in through A I would not be able to do it at 68. What is
:31:31. > :31:40.your retirement age now? I would get my NHS tension at -- pension at 60.
:31:41. > :31:44.What I liked about Danny's contribution is this is about cash,
:31:45. > :31:50.about saving money. It is about making things affordable
:31:51. > :31:54.to the country. I was giving you a compliment... I am not used to that!
:31:55. > :32:01.I will not resist telling you this has a history going back 2,000 years
:32:02. > :32:06.and exactly 2,000 years ago today the Emperor Augustus could not
:32:07. > :32:10.afford to pay the pension of the soldiers, so he postponed their
:32:11. > :32:18.retirement date. What do you think the consequence was? A vast mutiny.
:32:19. > :32:24.There are lessons to be learnt here. I think, in general, the points that
:32:25. > :32:30.David and Rachel have made, this has to go along, whatever its basic
:32:31. > :32:33.financial driver - it has to go along with re-thinking some of the
:32:34. > :32:37.nature of work and what a working career looks like.
:32:38. > :32:42.If you have been spending your life as a fireman, at what point do we
:32:43. > :32:46.think you want to stop. We have to remember, all of you, you are using
:32:47. > :32:51.the slogan, longer and healthier lives, which is almost as bad as
:32:52. > :32:54.hard-working families. Some people out there who actually are not going
:32:55. > :32:59.to have longer and healthier lives and they are not going to have
:33:00. > :33:05.healthier lives. There is a way this is building in a, in a sense a
:33:06. > :33:11.sub-class of those of us who will not go on happy until we are 85 and
:33:12. > :33:14.then drop down dead suddenly on the bus.
:33:15. > :33:19.All this came out of course today from the Autumn Statement. Let's
:33:20. > :33:23.just move on a little bit wide tore the Autumn Statement and take a
:33:24. > :33:28.question from Grace Hunt. Does the Autumn Statement show the
:33:29. > :33:34.economy is in full recovery? Full is the key word. Danny Alexander - is
:33:35. > :33:38.it in full recovery? The Autumn Statement shows the recovery is
:33:39. > :33:41.under way. I would not say it is a full recovery. There is a lot more
:33:42. > :33:45.work to be done to make sure the recovery which is starting to show
:33:46. > :33:49.positive signs for this country gathers pace. It is worth saying our
:33:50. > :33:54.growth figures have improved in the last few quarters. Our borrowing is
:33:55. > :34:00.coming down at a time our debt starts to fall is getting nearer.
:34:01. > :34:04.1.4 million net jobs have been passed in the sector in the last few
:34:05. > :34:09.years. That is a huge tes meant to the businesses and individual whoss
:34:10. > :34:13.are powering the recover -- who are powering the recovery in this
:34:14. > :34:16.country. Progress is being made because the Government's economic
:34:17. > :34:19.plan is working. Because we have been willing to take the decisions
:34:20. > :34:22.to get this country back on the right track, to invest in some of
:34:23. > :34:27.the things we have been talking about over some of the last
:34:28. > :34:30.questions which helped raise productivity in future. The
:34:31. > :34:35.coalition Government came together. Liberal Democrats, my party and
:34:36. > :34:38.David's party to clear up a massive economic mess made by the previous
:34:39. > :34:46.Government. We are on the way. The job is not finished and there is a
:34:47. > :34:50.lot more work to do. Rachel Reeves? The economy is finally growing after
:34:51. > :34:53.three years of flatlining. For many people, people in this room,
:34:54. > :35:01.watching on the television, things are incredibly tough at the moment.
:35:02. > :35:04.In the 40 months David Cameron has been Prime Minister, prices have
:35:05. > :35:08.risen faster than wages. Whether it is your gas or electricity bills,
:35:09. > :35:11.the rent - the prices of everything are going up. Wages are standing
:35:12. > :35:16.still. That's making it very difficult for
:35:17. > :35:20.people to make ends meet. Can you square that circle yourself? Well,
:35:21. > :35:28.we have said, for example, that we would freeze energy prices. That we
:35:29. > :35:33.would introduce the bonus to guarantee a job for young people out
:35:34. > :35:38.of job for more than a year, introduce a 10 p starting rate of
:35:39. > :35:42.tax. We could not do all we would like to do because the fiscal
:35:43. > :35:48.situation we're in is difficult. We would make difference choices and
:35:49. > :35:52.prioritising those on low and modest incomes rather than giving a tax cut
:35:53. > :35:56.for people earning more than ?150,000. If you look, at the
:35:57. > :36:01.moment, at the very bottom you have people who this Christmas will have
:36:02. > :36:06.to go to food banks and are going to loan sharks to make ends meet. You
:36:07. > :36:11.have people in the middle who are also incredibly worried about paying
:36:12. > :36:17.for the energy bills, what to do if the boiler breaks down or you need a
:36:18. > :36:23.new washing machine, not to mention - people have alluded, about their
:36:24. > :36:27.children and their grandchildren and what live has in terms for them -
:36:28. > :36:31.paying off the university debt. There are choices to be made. The
:36:32. > :36:36.Government made some today. Labour will be make making different ones
:36:37. > :36:41.in Government. Firstly, Rachel, you said the economy is flat-lining. It
:36:42. > :36:44.is not, that would mean zero growth. What is the current Government
:36:45. > :36:49.doing? You said in the Autumn Statement by 2015 you want to reduce
:36:50. > :36:59.unemployment by 7%. What is being done about youth unemployment, which
:37:00. > :37:03.stands at 21%? Yes, there are some ifs. If you are
:37:04. > :37:06.in work at the moment and possibly if you work in the south, because I
:37:07. > :37:12.fear we are more a divided nation than we have been for some time,
:37:13. > :37:16.then, yes, you probably are doing OK. While the economy improves you
:37:17. > :37:22.don't necessarily feel that because you are not getting more in your pay
:37:23. > :37:26.packet or wallet. What chilled me to the bone is when Rachel said, when
:37:27. > :37:35.Labour are in Government we'll do this and this and this. Let's not
:37:36. > :37:39.forget these were the people Ed Balls, he was the man who
:37:40. > :37:42.brilliantly sold the gold at the worst possible time when the price
:37:43. > :37:50.was at the lowest. He decided to sell it, so we lost it. If that lot
:37:51. > :37:55.came in we would all be queueing outside Wonga!
:37:56. > :38:00.This lot sold Royal Mail at half the price it was worth. A terrible
:38:01. > :38:07.decision. I think that will be part of a parliamentary inquiry. Maybe
:38:08. > :38:12.been around to see Nigella. What happened with that, he certainly got
:38:13. > :38:18.the price wrong. We were all told when I first entered the City that
:38:19. > :38:23.the best thing to do was to put money into pensions. Which myself
:38:24. > :38:27.and my good lady did. No-one told us a man called Brown was going to tax
:38:28. > :38:32.the pensions and make the money I saved in my pensions worth almost
:38:33. > :38:37.nothing! Do you feel the economy is recovering? It is recovering. I can
:38:38. > :38:46.feel it. It is better than it was. Davis? First off, when we supposedly
:38:47. > :38:50.had a double dip recession, we didn't - the numbers were wrong. Now
:38:51. > :38:57.we are improving, but we don't want to get too manic about that either.
:38:58. > :39:02.We are, in round numbers 1.5% growth rate, hopefully 2.5% next year. It
:39:03. > :39:07.takes about 3% growth to actually spread the income around the
:39:08. > :39:10.country. I mean, most of the western countries have this problem - the
:39:11. > :39:15.Americans, 2% growth rate. Nearly all the income into the top couple
:39:16. > :39:17.of per cent of the population. We are actually just at the beginning
:39:18. > :39:25.of this. That's why this austerity policy is
:39:26. > :39:29.going to have go on for some time. That's why the Treasury and Danny
:39:30. > :39:34.and his colleagues are going to have to work incredibly hard to make this
:39:35. > :39:38.actually keep going. We started out talking about the education system.
:39:39. > :39:41.We are up against ferocious competition around the world, in
:39:42. > :39:46.China and Singapore and other places. We'll have to earn our way.
:39:47. > :39:50.So, yes, we are beginning, but only just beginning to recover. Would you
:39:51. > :39:55.like to see tax cuts at this stage? Interestingly, one of the things...
:39:56. > :40:03.The answer is, yes. Let me tell you why. Let's pick up Rachel's point
:40:04. > :40:07.about the supposedly the top 1% or whatever getting tax breaks.
:40:08. > :40:12.Actually, since the tax was reduced, the amount of money, the amount of
:40:13. > :40:21.our tax paid by the top 1% has gone from 27% to 30%. As high as it's
:40:22. > :40:26.ever been. This was the cut from 50-45%. . Which we debated on your
:40:27. > :40:30.programme on the day it was announced. We are getting more money
:40:31. > :40:34.out of the rich. That is how we pay for health service and so on. We
:40:35. > :40:39.heard from the Chancellor, we also heard from the Chancellor today that
:40:40. > :40:45.you have done a dynamic study into the effects of corporation tax. By
:40:46. > :40:50.having a local corporation tax for more jobs and inward investment. The
:40:51. > :40:53.policies are not popular, they are difficult. Which taxes would you
:40:54. > :40:58.like to see cut now, right now? Would you like to have seen cut
:40:59. > :41:02.today? I approved... It is unusual for me. I approved of everything
:41:03. > :41:08.they did today, which is a novelty. But the... Falling off his chair
:41:09. > :41:13.here! We kept corporation tax low. We did
:41:14. > :41:18.a lot to help small businesses. Where are the jobs coming from -
:41:19. > :41:23.small businesses. All the rated capping, all the actions to improve
:41:24. > :41:27.-- all the rate capping, all the actions to improve the high street
:41:28. > :41:31.are a benefit and will show next year. I don't know how the
:41:32. > :41:37.Chancellor can claim we are in full recovery today. We have one in five
:41:38. > :41:40.children living in poverty. 800,000 children, 80,000 children living in
:41:41. > :41:45.temporary accommodation in the capital. I think we are a long way
:41:46. > :41:49.from full recovery. APPLAUSE
:41:50. > :41:54.Can I come back on that? The truth is, and it is something
:41:55. > :41:59.that Rachel said as well, that we are, the recovery is under way, but
:42:00. > :42:04.it is not fully, it is not, the country is by no means fully
:42:05. > :42:08.recovered. And having recovered from the deepest economic crisis we have
:42:09. > :42:11.seen for many decades, where the loss was on average ?3,000 a
:42:12. > :42:16.household during the economic crisis, of course it is the case it
:42:17. > :42:21.takes time to repair people's living standards. The only way to repair
:42:22. > :42:24.people's living standards is for a strong economic recover, it is only
:42:25. > :42:28.because we have a plan that is doing that that we have been able, for
:42:29. > :42:32.example, to cut income tax for 26 million working people in this
:42:33. > :42:35.country. Something my party and the Liberal Democrats promised at the
:42:36. > :42:40.last election. From next May, every working person in this country will
:42:41. > :42:45.keep ?700 more of their own money. We cut fuel duty, frozen council
:42:46. > :42:48.tax. We are doing a great deal to help people with the cost of living
:42:49. > :42:55.pressures. Rightly so, we are only doing it because we have a plan...
:42:56. > :43:00.It sounds like you are back on the bulletins! It is true. I find the
:43:01. > :43:05.Autumn Statement slightly irritating. Oh, dear! Not the
:43:06. > :43:10.contepts, but the reason we have seen -- contents. But the reason we
:43:11. > :43:15.have seen tonight. It adds like a penny in the slot and for you to
:43:16. > :43:20.swap percentages, which we don't get and we suspect you don't entirely
:43:21. > :43:24.get either! APPLAUSE
:43:25. > :43:29.I said, "Suspect! " Also we know what it is in it already, because
:43:30. > :43:35.you only had to read the up from newspapers. -- read the newspapers
:43:36. > :43:40.for the past few days. I read it, thanks to you Danny did lend me the
:43:41. > :43:46.Autumn Statement so I could prepare. I did, actually. I thought what is
:43:47. > :43:52.this for, if it is not what it looks like it is for. I read it as an
:43:53. > :43:57.election message. This is the beginning of the manifesto. You are
:43:58. > :44:03.very careful to say, not yet full recovery. Because actually, if we
:44:04. > :44:08.had a full recovery we could go back and have a Labour Government and
:44:09. > :44:12.that would be hunky dory! I don't think this country could afford a
:44:13. > :44:17.Labour Government under any circumstances. We are nearly there.
:44:18. > :44:20.There is some blue sky over there. We are on the right track and what
:44:21. > :44:24.you cannot trust is going back to those guys. It is very important for
:44:25. > :44:29.your election not to say we are fully recovered, but to say we are
:44:30. > :44:31.pointing in the right direction! It does not feel like fully
:44:32. > :44:43.recovered to me. I come from the north of England and
:44:44. > :44:47.you won't pretend there's a full row coverery -- recovery in the north of
:44:48. > :44:51.England. Danny is right. We are beginning. 1. 5% is just a
:44:52. > :44:57.beginning. We cannot afford to stay at this left. We have to get better.
:44:58. > :45:03.You're doing percentages again. The economy is running at a huge
:45:04. > :45:06.deficit, we are up to our necks in debt. Living standards are going to
:45:07. > :45:11.have to fall. I think no politician admits to that. We are not earning
:45:12. > :45:15.enough. Everything we buy this Christmas is coming from China or
:45:16. > :45:20.the Far East. If we don't make stuff, we don't actually generate
:45:21. > :45:23.wealth, we can't live at our current living standards. We have to get
:45:24. > :45:28.used to a changing environment. There is a report that what growth
:45:29. > :45:32.there is is because people are using savings not because of increased
:45:33. > :45:37.manufacturing, increased prosperity and increased productivity. Do you
:45:38. > :45:40.agree with that? Yes. That's the problem. This Christmas I think we
:45:41. > :45:47.find people are asked to increase their level of debt, their personal
:45:48. > :45:52.debt in order to help the country's national debt. I think it's a
:45:53. > :45:57.complete fallacy that there's even a recovery, never mind a full recover
:45:58. > :46:01.-- recovery. People are buying things they don't need with money
:46:02. > :46:04.they don't have which they're going into debt for. When we buy the
:46:05. > :46:11.things, we don't make them in the country. We buy them from Korea or
:46:12. > :46:17.China. The whole point is that if we're really going to have a proper
:46:18. > :46:22.recovery we need a growth policy. You don't have a growth policy. The
:46:23. > :46:25.office of budget responsibility have made several predictions, all of
:46:26. > :46:29.which have transpired to be wrong. The Government used that data to
:46:30. > :46:33.make spending decisions which affect all of us. There is no recovery.
:46:34. > :46:37.We're all spending money which we don't have, which we're borrowing on
:46:38. > :46:42.goods that we don't make. We need to make things in this country, rather
:46:43. > :46:47.than buy them from abroad. APPLAUSE
:46:48. > :46:51.And you, Sir. I would just like to know how many
:46:52. > :46:55.of the MPs on the panel would voluntarily take a pay cut or pay
:46:56. > :47:06.freeze to contribute towards the country that the majority of us work
:47:07. > :47:11.so hard for? I don't think I can put that on that. You're free to answer
:47:12. > :47:15.any of you that question about the pay cut. When we came into
:47:16. > :47:20.Government, all ministers took a 5% pay cut and ministerial salaries
:47:21. > :47:25.have been frozen for the Parliament. MPs' pay has been frozen for two
:47:26. > :47:27.years. And restrictions are in place like every other public sector
:47:28. > :47:32.worker. It's right because we have to show and have restraint in pay to
:47:33. > :47:36.help the country recover the mess in its public finances. Just a point
:47:37. > :47:42.from the person who is just about to start talking there. 1. Something
:47:43. > :47:46.per cent is a tiny amount. I'm worried that people will think that
:47:47. > :47:49.we are on the road to recovery and vote for Labour. We don't need to
:47:50. > :47:53.continue to spend until we're paying back our debt. We're in a bad
:47:54. > :47:57.situation. I want to get a couple more questions in. One from John
:47:58. > :48:01.Golden. Does the extensive media coverage of
:48:02. > :48:07.Tom Daley's new relationship suggest that it's, in fact, still not O'-Kay
:48:08. > :48:11.to be gay? -- OK to be gay. Interesting question, huge coverage
:48:12. > :48:15.of Tom Daley saying he was in a gay relationship. Does the coverage
:48:16. > :48:20.suggest it's still not OK? No, I don't think it does. I think you
:48:21. > :48:24.have to accept This is a Man's World was an scrord -- you have to accept
:48:25. > :48:27.this was an extraordinarily successful young man. There may have
:48:28. > :48:33.been issues about his sexuality in the past. He was an Olympic hero, he
:48:34. > :48:36.will be front-page news. I would suggest the tone of the papers
:48:37. > :48:41.radically different to how papers would have reported this two decades
:48:42. > :48:46.ago. I would argue it spoke it a better and more tolerant Britain. It
:48:47. > :48:51.was totally embracing. Everybody said we couldn't care a damn, get on
:48:52. > :48:56.with it and enjoy your life. Thats what I took from it.
:48:57. > :49:01.Surprisingly, I absolutely agree. We're not doing very well, Mary,
:49:02. > :49:08.tell me why. I thought my own reaction was that I wasn't terribly
:49:09. > :49:12.interested. Don't read it then. I wasn't terribly interested, but I
:49:13. > :49:18.think many people thought fine. But just led the lad get back and dive,
:49:19. > :49:25.I thought and not worry about his sex life. I guess, the time when
:49:26. > :49:28.we're really a mature society is when he doesn't need to bother to
:49:29. > :49:34.tell us. That's the real thing. Nobody cares one way or the other.
:49:35. > :49:39.APPLAUSE In one respect, Nick is right. This
:49:40. > :49:45.is a sporting hero. He's somebody who everybody idolises, the girls
:49:46. > :49:49.allise olised too. There will be -- idolised too. There will be some sad
:49:50. > :49:54.girls! He did it the way he did it. He did it very tastefully. And he
:49:55. > :49:58.chose to do it. Nobody forced it, his choice. Wonderful. Good luck to
:49:59. > :50:03.him. If it was truly like not an issue, it wouldn't have been
:50:04. > :50:08.mentioned. The fact that there is newspaper articles about his
:50:09. > :50:11.sexuality shows that to some extent, it's an issue in someone's head. If
:50:12. > :50:15.it was mentioned briefly in an interview or something, that would
:50:16. > :50:21.be more understandable. Why was it necessary to make these remarks?
:50:22. > :50:26.Look, no-one would come out and say, I've got something to tell you, I'm
:50:27. > :50:30.straight. There is still an issue. It is fantastic that Tom has done
:50:31. > :50:34.this. The public reaction has been fantastic. If you take football,
:50:35. > :50:39.there isn't a single professional footballer in this country who is
:50:40. > :50:42.out as gay or bisexual. Maybe there's no professional footballers
:50:43. > :50:46.who are gay or bisexual or it might be that they are afraid of telling
:50:47. > :50:50.us they are, because they're worried about the reaction on the pitch when
:50:51. > :50:56.they're playing in matches. I think there is still an issue. We've come
:50:57. > :51:01.a long way. But there is still further to go. Until it's regarded
:51:02. > :51:05.as it doesn't matter at all. I address the gentleman there, it only
:51:06. > :51:09.made news because it's Tom Daley. I remind the audience, this is Great
:51:10. > :51:13.Britain, and orientation or disability is treated far more
:51:14. > :51:20.liberally here than other parts of the world. I agree with that, I
:51:21. > :51:24.think. It's right Tom Daley is a famous guy. He's a celebrity and
:51:25. > :51:29.successful athlete. There's bound to be a bit of attention when he says
:51:30. > :51:33.this. Butch it's a mark of -- but it's a mark of our tolerance in our
:51:34. > :51:36.society that it's been received as it has been. Rachel makes an
:51:37. > :51:41.important point, which is that there are other sports where perhaps
:51:42. > :51:45.there's not as much tolerance as there needs to be, there are very
:51:46. > :51:48.few footballers, cricketers, rugby players who've been able to make the
:51:49. > :51:53.sort of statement that Tom Daley has. It's a good example that you
:51:54. > :51:57.can make these sorts of statements, be well received by the public and I
:51:58. > :52:01.hope very much we will continue to become more tolerant as we have by
:52:02. > :52:06.supporting same-sex marriage in this country too.
:52:07. > :52:14.Which you were against, I think. Yeah. You are still? Yeah, well,
:52:15. > :52:20.it's over, it's past, it's done. The important point, when we took
:52:21. > :52:23.through the civil partnership legislation, the Labour Party did
:52:24. > :52:27.and we supported it, we talked to people at that time and said do you
:52:28. > :52:32.want same-sex marriage and they said no. Making a double issue out of it
:52:33. > :52:38.was a waste of time. One more question, that was something that
:52:39. > :52:42.David Davies preefl mentioned. -- briefly mentioned. Do you agree with
:52:43. > :52:46.Boris that greed is good. This was the speech, the Margaret Thatcher
:52:47. > :52:50.lecture, that Boris Johnson made, it goes to the heart of the economy and
:52:51. > :52:55.indeed of education, we've been talking about. This is the quote,
:52:56. > :53:00."Some measure of inequality is essential for the spirit of envy and
:53:01. > :53:08.keeping up with the joneses, that is like greed, a valuable spur to
:53:09. > :53:12.economic activity." True or false? Neither true nor false. It's another
:53:13. > :53:17.example of us being rather dim and handing Boris publicity on ape
:53:18. > :53:21.plate. -- a plate. APPLAUSE
:53:22. > :53:26.He says something kind of arguably controversial and he gets thousands
:53:27. > :53:29.of column inches. He then comes back and said, well, actually, if you
:53:30. > :53:34.read my speech, I didn't quite say that. He said exactly what I quoted.
:53:35. > :53:37.If you put it in context, it was rather different. I read the speech
:53:38. > :53:43.in full. He said that and he said other things, which he then puts in
:53:44. > :53:47.the Scotsman or Scotland or Sunday and gets more column inches. In some
:53:48. > :53:51.ways, we all have a good time, he goes on your programme. Can you
:53:52. > :53:59.address the issue. Is it true or false what he said that inequality,
:54:00. > :54:06.envy, keeping up with the joneses and greed is a spur to activity.
:54:07. > :54:08.Ah... LAUGHTER
:54:09. > :54:14.Delete the valuable and in some cases, I have no doubt that greed is
:54:15. > :54:18.a spur to economic activity. I have no doubt. Whether it's a valuable
:54:19. > :54:24.spur, I would have much bigger cause to doubt.
:54:25. > :54:27.In fact I think it's not valuable. Anybody who says greed wasn't a spur
:54:28. > :54:33.to some forms of economic activity would be mad. Boris used to work on
:54:34. > :54:40.my team when I was Shadow Home Secretary, which is why I have so
:54:41. > :54:45.much grey hair. You should see his! He was an interesting handful. Mary
:54:46. > :54:55.has a point. Mary is an historian. She'd think of Henry Ford, Edison,
:54:56. > :54:57.Vand erbilt, who made the great Industrial Revolution. They did it
:54:58. > :55:04.because they wanted to make a fortune and they did. The point that
:55:05. > :55:09.Boris is making is this is a driver. It actually makes economies run. It
:55:10. > :55:12.makes companies grow bigger. It makes people create wealth for
:55:13. > :55:17.everybody, not just themselves. But what he also said, I have to do it
:55:18. > :55:22.from memory, but something like, I hope that Gordon Gekkos of the City
:55:23. > :55:26.of tomorrow will give back and create more. He made the point, of
:55:27. > :55:32.course he recognised that there were a problem with unfettered greed
:55:33. > :55:36.doing things that aren't necessarily socially useful. He also made the
:55:37. > :55:40.point that it's necessary for people who are at the top of society to
:55:41. > :55:45.give a lot back. That was really the point of the whole speech.
:55:46. > :55:50.Boris clumsily put, which is ridiculous of a man of his level of
:55:51. > :55:55.education, though he didn't do very well in the IQ test - but there is
:55:56. > :55:59.nothing wrong with keeping up with the Joneses. The audience has
:56:00. > :56:03.brought it round in full circle. As we talked about competition at the
:56:04. > :56:05.start, the young lady back there, an the gentleman over there, you've
:56:06. > :56:09.expressed how important it is. That is why, as a when you have children,
:56:10. > :56:15.you want your children to do better than you. That's what it's all
:56:16. > :56:19.about. That drives it. That is wholesome and correct. Well, you
:56:20. > :56:23.talk about what you want for your children. You want them to be
:56:24. > :56:28.successful, happy, but I don't want my children to be greedy. I don't
:56:29. > :56:36.think greed is a virtue. It is a vice. Take what he said on the
:56:37. > :56:41.whole. The question was about greed being good. I don't think greed is
:56:42. > :56:46.good. Wanting to do well to create wealth and to create new things, of
:56:47. > :56:51.course that is. You mention people like Henry Ford. If you look at some
:56:52. > :56:57.of the most successful business people, Gates, Ford or Carnegie,
:56:58. > :57:00.they were successful in business, but they gave a huge amount back.
:57:01. > :57:07.They weren't greedy. They were successful, but they cared about the
:57:08. > :57:12.places where they worked. ? . -- worked. Common sense is important
:57:13. > :57:20.too, as perhaps Boris has learned this time. You are an optimist! I
:57:21. > :57:23.am. Yes, I am. But what was so wrong about what Boris seemed to be saying
:57:24. > :57:26.was that there's a group of people in our population who should be kept
:57:27. > :57:32.down and some people are always going to succeed. He did not say
:57:33. > :57:36.that. I want a stronger conmy in a fairer society -- economy in a
:57:37. > :57:40.fairer society. You want people to have the opportunity. Everyone will
:57:41. > :57:44.succeed to different levels because of their ability, effort,
:57:45. > :57:48.application. But you want a society where everyone has the chance to get
:57:49. > :57:52.on. That's what we should be and are working to achieve. What's been a
:57:53. > :57:55.somewhat gloomy programme, as a country we have brilliant people,
:57:56. > :57:59.institutions, brilliant businesses. I believe we can succeed in that
:58:00. > :58:04.way. I'm sorry, we've got to stop there. Our time's up. We're in
:58:05. > :58:09.Swansea next week. We have Eric Pickles for the Tories and the First
:58:10. > :58:15.Minister for Wales. For Labour, we're off the air while Parliament
:58:16. > :58:19.takes a break. We are in Lewisham in January to take part in those
:58:20. > :58:28.programmes, Swansea or Lewisham, go to our website. Or call: If you're
:58:29. > :58:35.listening on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes on. Our thanks to our
:58:36. > :58:38.panel here, to all of you who came here, good night.