:00:00. > :00:11.Tonight, a special edition of Question Time. We are in
:00:12. > :00:14.Johannesburg. Our panel is partly made up of a new generation worried
:00:15. > :00:19.about the way this country is going, partly made up of people who worked
:00:20. > :00:22.with Nelson Mandela, and with our audience here to debate what the
:00:23. > :00:38.future holds now that Mandela is gone. Welcome to Question Time.
:00:39. > :00:40.On the panel, Lindiwe Zulu, on the NEC of the African National
:00:41. > :00:47.Congress, an adviser on international relations to President
:00:48. > :00:49.Zuma. Lindiwe Mazibuko, parliamentary leader of the official
:00:50. > :00:55.opposition party, the Democratic Alliance, and one of South Africa's
:00:56. > :00:58.youngest MPs. Pik Botha, Foreign Minister in the last apartheid
:00:59. > :01:01.government, who later joined the African National Congress. The
:01:02. > :01:08.radical black consciousness activist, Andile Mngxitama.
:01:09. > :01:14.Journalist and radio presenter, Eusebius McKaiser, and the African
:01:15. > :01:25.born British Labour MP, leading campaigner against apartheid, Peter
:01:26. > :01:32.Hain. Our first question. Given the booing
:01:33. > :01:36.and jeering towards the president which we witnessed a few days ago,
:01:37. > :01:44.does the ANC is still have the majority of South Africans behind
:01:45. > :01:48.it? I think it was an interesting moment for South Africans. Many
:01:49. > :01:52.people are saying it was outrageous to interrupt the funeral, the
:01:53. > :01:57.memorial with the jeering of President Zuma, who was not the
:01:58. > :02:00.person we gathered to honour. Many people are saying it was great South
:02:01. > :02:06.Africans felt free to express their discontent. I think it was not
:02:07. > :02:10.ideal. I would have liked President Mandela to have had an honourable
:02:11. > :02:13.sendoff without those kind of politics, but perhaps the world
:02:14. > :02:17.needs to know where South Africa is. To answer your question, there
:02:18. > :02:22.is dissatisfaction with President Zuma. There is massive
:02:23. > :02:25.dissatisfaction with the ANC, but he is at the centre of that. Issues
:02:26. > :02:29.around corruption, lack of delivery, he is a symbol of what is wrong with
:02:30. > :02:35.the ANC and increasingly people are speaking up about that. I hope it
:02:36. > :02:39.will materialise at the ballot. It does not help to only complain
:02:40. > :02:42.during times of mourning. People must express themselves
:02:43. > :02:48.democratically and perhaps we can start to move towards a more vibrant
:02:49. > :02:53.multiparty democracy. Yes, it was very unfortunate, the choice of
:02:54. > :02:58.expression, the freedom of expression and the booing of the
:02:59. > :03:03.president on a day like this. It is something that as South Africans,
:03:04. > :03:07.all of us, including in the African National Congress, are completely
:03:08. > :03:10.disgusted with, as a matter of fact. The bottom line is that in the
:03:11. > :03:14.African National Congress if people have got issues that they need to
:03:15. > :03:18.deal with, they have a platform within the African National Congress
:03:19. > :03:22.to raise those issues. They have been opened to do that. If the
:03:23. > :03:26.African National Congress needs to take a decision on the basis of its
:03:27. > :03:29.principles, that decision will be taken by the African National
:03:30. > :03:37.Congress how to deal with this. This is what should not have happened. We
:03:38. > :03:42.are respecting the greatest man to have lived during our time. What
:03:43. > :03:47.about the antagonism it shows towards President Zuma? It does not
:03:48. > :03:50.matter what antagonism people might have had on President Zuma at that
:03:51. > :03:57.point in time. The fact of the matter is that we had almost 100 and
:03:58. > :04:01.something heads of state visiting South Africa to give respect to
:04:02. > :04:07.Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. That should have never been a platform
:04:08. > :04:11.for anybody who was unhappy with anything, irrespective of which
:04:12. > :04:16.political party he comes from. The worst is when it comes from the
:04:17. > :04:19.African National Congress, because the African National Congress
:04:20. > :04:23.believes that its own members should not find themselves in that space.
:04:24. > :04:38.But put it into the context of the fact that we have a memorial
:04:39. > :04:43.service. I would like to mention something. During the time of
:04:44. > :04:54.apartheid, people worshipping and comrades. Within funerals, the ANC
:04:55. > :04:57.would say Long live ANC and that is where we mobilise, within funerals.
:04:58. > :05:04.People are tired of the president that spits Mandela's name. The
:05:05. > :05:15.president that oppresses the poor, the president that keeps introducing
:05:16. > :05:19.things we are annoyed at. So are you saying it was right, if you felt
:05:20. > :05:24.like that, during the memorial? I think we all loved that, and we all
:05:25. > :05:29.respect what he did for this country. There is no dispute about
:05:30. > :05:36.that. But I am saying there is no platform to express our feelings.
:05:37. > :05:40.How can you say that? You are sitting here. This is the very
:05:41. > :05:52.platform where people have to express themselves. Like the
:05:53. > :05:56.government of the day, Lindiwe is misreading the mood of the country.
:05:57. > :06:04.That is what it is fundamentally about. As a South African, I am not
:06:05. > :06:09.disgusted by the booing. What is too easy to do is to say it is ad
:06:10. > :06:14.decorum at a memorial service for the greatest global icon, two blue.
:06:15. > :06:17.What is harder to do is to ask yourself, why would a nation in
:06:18. > :06:29.mourning do something that goes against what is decent? That is the
:06:30. > :06:40.question to ask. Pik Botha. If I may. Yes, you may. There is a
:06:41. > :06:48.challenge. He passed away, but his legacy cannot die. And I think there
:06:49. > :06:55.is a challenge for all of us, for the government, the citizens, the
:06:56. > :07:06.churches, the private sector. I think we must go and reflect. Are we
:07:07. > :07:10.honouring his legacy, or are we violating that legacy? And did you
:07:11. > :07:20.think the booing violated the legacy? I am hesitant. I am making
:07:21. > :07:30.an appeal now. Let us do what he did. He refused to be dictated to by
:07:31. > :07:37.the bitterness of his past and 27 years in prison, and decided for
:07:38. > :07:45.himself that if we want to make progress in this country, we must
:07:46. > :07:56.forgive and we must move forward. His words to me, when we often met,
:07:57. > :08:01.alone, privately, at his request, Pik, we need each other to succeed.
:08:02. > :08:04.But the question is whether President Zuma is unpopular and
:08:05. > :08:10.whether it was right of a section of the crowd to boo him, despite the
:08:11. > :08:17.fact that it was Mandela's memorial. It drew a lot of international
:08:18. > :08:30.attention, as you know. David, listen. The memorial is for Mr
:08:31. > :08:36.Mandela. I think we must not argue and have unpleasant discussions. I
:08:37. > :08:42.think we must concentrate on his legacy and what he did for all of us
:08:43. > :08:46.and his dreams. And the ANC included, not excluded, they must
:08:47. > :08:53.also ask themselves, are we true to his legacy? Do we know him? How
:08:54. > :08:59.often have you met him? How often have you had discussions with him?
:09:00. > :09:04.Where were you when he divorced Winnie? Did you phone him, did you
:09:05. > :09:10.side with him? This is my point. We were together. We had discussions of
:09:11. > :09:14.a private nature. When I had a cancer operation, when I came round
:09:15. > :09:19.he was standing next my bed holding my hand and saying, Pik, we want you
:09:20. > :09:27.to get well. I went through the same ordeal. We need each other. This is
:09:28. > :09:34.what the purpose must be. I think it is unfortunate that there is an
:09:35. > :09:39.emphasis on one aspect of Mandela's legacy, and this legacy is
:09:40. > :09:43.reconciliation without justice. In fact, Mandela is a revolutionaries.
:09:44. > :09:50.He takes up arms, he questioned authority, he wants justice. So if
:09:51. > :09:53.Jacob Zuma is the representative of a government that does not listen to
:09:54. > :10:04.people, then we are going to question that. We must question it
:10:05. > :10:08.at all times. I want to argue that the booing is consistent with
:10:09. > :10:20.questioning of an authority that refuses to listen to the people. The
:10:21. > :10:27.woman at the very back. I would like to ask to the ANC lady, because she
:10:28. > :10:35.is telling us about the right platform. And yet the ANC never show
:10:36. > :10:40.us the respect in the first place. If the ANC did listen to the people
:10:41. > :10:46.in the first place, that booing would not even try to be happening
:10:47. > :10:55.on that day. Because the ANC never give us the rightful platform. You
:10:56. > :11:00.do not give them the platform to make their voices heard. The
:11:01. > :11:04.platform that she is talking about is a platform where each and every
:11:05. > :11:12.one of us, each and every time we have to vote for a government, we
:11:13. > :11:17.have freely gone to elections, without any harassment, without any
:11:18. > :11:21.intimidation. That is a platform, because it is a platform for you to
:11:22. > :11:26.decide who you want to vote for, number one. Number two, we have
:11:27. > :11:32.given the platform because the in which we live, we have said
:11:33. > :11:36.ourselves, those communities have a platform where they can express
:11:37. > :11:40.themselves. You have the local structures, where unique to know
:11:41. > :11:45.where those local structures are. You need to know who your MP is. You
:11:46. > :11:49.need to know who is your local struck. Those are the structures
:11:50. > :11:54.that you have to express yourself. At the bottom of all of Lindiwe's
:11:55. > :11:57.responses is the fundamental refusal to engage with why people are angry.
:11:58. > :12:02.You say there are platforms and structures, and you have a lady
:12:03. > :12:09.saying, where are they? People feel they do not have a way to engage the
:12:10. > :12:14.ANC to make it change its behaviour. You are asking the wrong question.
:12:15. > :12:17.It is not right to ask whether it was wrong or right, it is simply a
:12:18. > :12:32.reflection of where South Africa is. I want to say that Jacob Zuma
:12:33. > :12:37.has lost the aspect and the popularity of the South African. The
:12:38. > :12:45.lady who is sitting on the panel, she is defending the indefensible.
:12:46. > :12:52.She is falling herself. -- fooling herself. I was startled by it
:12:53. > :12:56.because this was an event to commemorate probably the greatest
:12:57. > :13:01.figure of our generation, not just in South Africa but across the
:13:02. > :13:05.world. So I was startled. But having a year ago made a documentary for
:13:06. > :13:10.the BBC on what was going on in South Africa after the Maricana
:13:11. > :13:13.massacre, I was not surprised, because there is a lot of resentment
:13:14. > :13:16.at the grassroots about an unwillingness on the part of the
:13:17. > :13:22.leadership in that it will, the president, to actually listen to
:13:23. > :13:26.people and reflect their wishes. In a way I was not surprised but I
:13:27. > :13:30.think the key thing for the ANC leadership is to take the country
:13:31. > :13:35.forward and listen to people. If it does so, as a supporter of the ANC,
:13:36. > :13:41.I believe it can succeed. But many people here, I have down, including
:13:42. > :13:45.ANC members and past activist 's, like one of the leaders of an
:13:46. > :13:49.underground organisation alongside Nelson Mandela, very critical of the
:13:50. > :14:02.present leadership. It is important the present leadership listens to
:14:03. > :14:08.that. The lady in white. About this thing of platforms, now she is
:14:09. > :14:14.saying we have been given the platforms with our votes, which
:14:15. > :14:20.means they are going to give us the platform on the dates of the votes.
:14:21. > :14:32.After, they are no longer coming back to us until the five years.
:14:33. > :14:34.I want to ask the lady of the ANC, President Zuma did not ask the
:14:35. > :14:44.mission to build his house, his swimming pool. Why must we ask the
:14:45. > :14:54.permission not to boo him? The house being one that cost something like
:14:55. > :14:58.?12 million. I don't think the President has come out to say he
:14:59. > :15:03.wants to have permission to boo or not to boo. Let's put things in
:15:04. > :15:08.perspective because if we are going to be jumping all over the show,
:15:09. > :15:12.we're going to end up not being focussed. Firstly, we are talking
:15:13. > :15:16.about the booing. I make the statement clearly from the African
:15:17. > :15:21.National Congress point of view. That what happened there was not
:15:22. > :15:26.illegal, but it was ethically not correct because the platform
:15:27. > :15:32.which... APPLAUSE
:15:33. > :15:37.Was a platform of giving respect to former President Nelson Mandela. You
:15:38. > :15:42.were reported as saying those responsible - it was human lighting
:15:43. > :15:51.and those responsible would be dealt with - did you say that? Absolutely.
:15:52. > :15:56.Yes. I did! These are members... How can you... These are members of the
:15:57. > :16:01.African National Congress. We have a constitution in the ANC. We have
:16:02. > :16:05.regulations in the ANC. We've got rules in the ANC, so when you break
:16:06. > :16:11.those rules of the ANC, there must be a consequence. If it was not
:16:12. > :16:14.members of the ANC, some other people, then would not say we will
:16:15. > :16:19.deal with them. In this particular case, we know as a matter of fact it
:16:20. > :16:28.was... How can you know that? This is chilling! What will you do - will
:16:29. > :16:36.you get surveillance footage? Can I get this opportunity? Can I get this
:16:37. > :16:41.opportunity... You were saying it is only... We know because when it
:16:42. > :16:45.happened it was embarrassing. Therefore, the people who are
:16:46. > :16:50.responsible for the event which is Government, had to go and speak to
:16:51. > :16:54.them and ask them, that even if you have programmes, can we at least get
:16:55. > :17:05.this event over? And then you can deal with your programmes.
:17:06. > :17:12.A quick point. Firstly, I thought the first propaganda defence was it
:17:13. > :17:20.was... In addition to that, David, the most important point is the ANC,
:17:21. > :17:27.because of its large elect ral majority feel invensible. They --
:17:28. > :17:33.invincible. They could potentially commit suicide. You don't deal with
:17:34. > :17:36.people, you... APPLAUSE
:17:37. > :17:41.You've all had your say. We have many more questions our audience
:17:42. > :17:45.want to raise. We only have an hour for the debate. We have done quarter
:17:46. > :17:49.of an hour already. I will move on to another question. You can join
:17:50. > :17:52.the debate on Twitter in Britain, or indeed wherever you are in the world
:17:53. > :18:13.watching this. Right, let's move on to a question.
:18:14. > :18:20.This from Esau Mudau, please. Is racism over?
:18:21. > :18:31.Certainly not. South Africa remain remains by and
:18:32. > :18:38.large a Racist society. In 1994, we did not end racism. Our ideal of the
:18:39. > :18:43.konslation meant we did not address the question, which shape shapes
:18:44. > :18:47.racism. The land question. 20 years later only 7% of the land has gone
:18:48. > :18:51.back to black people. The issue of transformation of the labour market.
:18:52. > :18:55.The issue of poverty. The issue of even the housing, where black people
:18:56. > :19:00.live. We have continued to exist, as it was under apartheid. The ANC, to
:19:01. > :19:05.make thicks worse, has provide -- make things worse, has provided
:19:06. > :19:09.services to black people which is sometimes inferior to those applied
:19:10. > :19:15.by the regime. The house - you must go and look at one of those things
:19:16. > :19:17.so. The truth of the matter is structurely South Africa remains
:19:18. > :19:26.antiblack, because black people suffer in South Africa. That is when
:19:27. > :19:32.the miners demanded the living wage, the police were sent in and they
:19:33. > :19:37.were massacred, instead of - and that was done to protect white
:19:38. > :19:44.capital. That was done to protect the interests of the ANC leadership,
:19:45. > :19:49.which has joined white to oppress black people. The black majority in
:19:50. > :19:56.South Africa have a vote, but let us be clear, we remain marginalised.
:19:57. > :20:02.The ANC manages the project. If you go to cape town, see the conditions
:20:03. > :20:07.of black people. APPLAUSE
:20:08. > :20:10.It is only 20 years since Nelson Mandela was elected President in the
:20:11. > :20:17.first ever democratic election. We've had racism in South Africa
:20:18. > :20:21.started under British colonial rule and was intensified under apartheid.
:20:22. > :20:25.When I was a boy, my parents were active in the struggle in Pretoria.
:20:26. > :20:30.Black people could not sit on the same park bench. Couldn't go into
:20:31. > :20:34.the same parks. I could not play football or cricket with anybody who
:20:35. > :20:39.did not have a white skin. That has stopped. So apartheid in its formal
:20:40. > :20:43.institutional sense has been abolished. You cannot abolish the
:20:44. > :20:48.legacy just in 20 years. Of course you still have racist attitudes. Of
:20:49. > :20:51.course you still have a lot of institutional heritage here. But
:20:52. > :20:55.when I come back to South Africa, compared to when we left in '66,
:20:56. > :20:59.this is a completely different country. It is a country in which
:21:00. > :21:04.people do have rights. It may not be perfect. You cannot become perfect
:21:05. > :21:08.in just 20 years when you have this long history. There 's a lot of work
:21:09. > :21:10.to do. Recognise what has been achieved.
:21:11. > :21:18.APPLAUSE The man on the right there. You,
:21:19. > :21:21.Sir, yes. Yes, you, fire away. Vy say institutional racism in South
:21:22. > :21:25.Africa still continues. Right. The thing is, there has been
:21:26. > :21:29.transformation of some sort. That has not been helped by ANC policy.
:21:30. > :21:36.There needs to be a redress in policy. What do you mean by that?
:21:37. > :21:39.Racism so, you still have massive racism in corporate environments.
:21:40. > :21:42.You still have black kids who struggle to get into private
:21:43. > :21:47.schools, who are still, because they are in lower classes and because ANC
:21:48. > :21:52.handed out education, it is so interior, they have an inability to
:21:53. > :21:56.move on and get into university and liberate themselves. On that point,
:21:57. > :22:00.it needs to be noted that you cannot have and you simply cannot have this
:22:01. > :22:05.redress happening in three years, five years - it needs to be over the
:22:06. > :22:11.long-term. APPLAUSE
:22:12. > :22:15.I think what is happening here is we're not answering the gentlemen's
:22:16. > :22:18.question. Racism is a fundamental problem we live with in your
:22:19. > :22:24.country. We have to acknowledge it and look it in the eye and talk
:22:25. > :22:28.about how to deal with it socially. Racism inequality is the economic
:22:29. > :22:33.fruit of apartheid. Poverty is black. Access to education and lack
:22:34. > :22:37.to resources is black. All these fruitses of apartheid are with --
:22:38. > :22:41.fruits of apartheid are with us today. I would articling a lot of
:22:42. > :22:45.what you just said -- I would argue a lot of what you just said is
:22:46. > :22:51.racism. Under apartheid it is better, is a shock indictment. To
:22:52. > :22:55.say... I am from the Democratic Alliance. I do not deny the ANC has
:22:56. > :23:00.not made massive strides... You cannot say a Government that was
:23:01. > :23:04.guilty of a crime against humanity did a better job. You are trying to
:23:05. > :23:08.be radical. I don't think that is responsible. Also what you are, what
:23:09. > :23:13.you are also doing is stirring up this white capital, black capital
:23:14. > :23:17.question and ignoring theishes at play, that is the ANC has got
:23:18. > :23:21.labour, big business, politics all in one point, working together
:23:22. > :23:35.against the vast majority of people who don't have access to these power
:23:36. > :23:39.blocks. -- power blocks. If you go to the western Cape, where the
:23:40. > :23:44.Democratic Alliance is in power and you look at the conditions of black
:23:45. > :23:47.people, where we live, on farms, you know, you said our people are being
:23:48. > :23:54.shot and removed by your Government there. I mean, the farmers were
:23:55. > :23:58.killed by a demanding a living wage. You say it is not racism. You accept
:23:59. > :24:02.that less than 10% of the wealth of this country is owned by black
:24:03. > :24:06.people. The majority of wealth is in white hands. For you, that is not
:24:07. > :24:12.racism? I do not accept that. I agree with you when you say that
:24:13. > :24:21.there hasn't been enough success... One at a - don't... Please, don't
:24:22. > :24:26.speak... Rather than a battle to eradicate racial equality. You want
:24:27. > :24:30.to create a race war and you want to intensify and accentuate racism in
:24:31. > :24:38.order to ensure you get platforms to speak on. And instead of issues you
:24:39. > :24:47.should be dealing with. Malcolm X spoke about those who
:24:48. > :24:58.identify with the oppressors. You speak like... And you speak like...
:24:59. > :25:02.And you speak like a racial nationalist and a... Is racism over?
:25:03. > :25:05.I want to get back to the real question. Not the colourful
:25:06. > :25:09.rhetoric, even if it gets you applause. It does not help us. On
:25:10. > :25:19.the issue, I actually only partly agree with you on the question. I
:25:20. > :25:24.agree there is a difference between racism and the structural racism.
:25:25. > :25:28.You cannot divorce the two. Because the reality is that when we talk
:25:29. > :25:31.about apartheid geography, for example, that is not an economic
:25:32. > :25:37.problem, not a social economic problem. As black people we
:25:38. > :25:40.experience that as black exclusion there the democratic South Africa.
:25:41. > :25:52.APPLAUSE Pik Botha? Yet again I want to make
:25:53. > :25:57.an appeal. I think our people here would be interested to know that at
:25:58. > :26:06.one stage during a discussion with Mr Mandela, he reprimanded me,
:26:07. > :26:09.saying to me, you are driving your white right wing into rebellion. I
:26:10. > :26:18.said, would you rather negotiate with him? He said to me, no. No. You
:26:19. > :26:22.know and I know that none of us would wish to live or govern a
:26:23. > :26:31.country where we are threatened by the devastation of violence.
:26:32. > :26:35.Mr Mandela seriously and earnestly believed that political power
:26:36. > :26:43.acquired by violence is not sustainable. And that is why he was
:26:44. > :26:49.prepared not to be dictated to by the bitterness that he had
:26:50. > :26:53.experienced, but said at times, a leader must move ahead of his flock.
:26:54. > :27:01.These are his words. There are times when a leader must move ahead of his
:27:02. > :27:05.flock and make decisions even if they are unpopular, on the condition
:27:06. > :27:07.the leader is convinced it is for the benefit and the long-term
:27:08. > :27:11.benefit of his question. The question was - is racism over in
:27:12. > :27:17.this country? Is it over in your view?
:27:18. > :27:24.There are signs of it. Then it is our duty, it is our duty
:27:25. > :27:30.to try and eradicate it in a way that doesn't give offence. You take
:27:31. > :27:34.the Cape Province, for instance, where this lady has an important
:27:35. > :27:43.role to play. The whole world knows that the so-called brown people, I
:27:44. > :27:53.consider them also as - we speak Afrikaans.
:27:54. > :27:56.So, my point is, we know that since then the brown people were in the
:27:57. > :28:01.majority there. To come and tell the brown people, no, you are only so
:28:02. > :28:06.many per cent of the population, that's only so many per cent can get
:28:07. > :28:12.jobs. This is the closest to racism that I ever got.
:28:13. > :28:20.The issue of racism in South Africa is on its way out. If we were to
:28:21. > :28:23.implement the legacy of comrade Nelson Mandela, it is on its way out
:28:24. > :28:31.and it is our responsibility to make sure that it walks out of the lives
:28:32. > :28:37.of South African people. The African National Congress has always stood
:28:38. > :28:43.for nonracial. We fought for it to say we want a South Africa that is
:28:44. > :28:50.none racial, none sex unionist and democratic. In order -- sexist and
:28:51. > :28:55.democratic. In order to get there we have to stop scratching each other's
:28:56. > :28:59.faces and get to the question how we collectively move towards the way
:29:00. > :29:02.Madiba did. I tell you when Nelson Mandela walked out of prison, there
:29:03. > :29:07.were many of us who were not in the country here, who were outside in
:29:08. > :29:12.exile, who were ready to come and fight if it meant killing somebody,
:29:13. > :29:17.we were going to do this. However this man here walked into our camps
:29:18. > :29:22.and said to us, I hear you, that this is what you want to do -
:29:23. > :29:29.however the South Africa that you need is a South Africa that is
:29:30. > :29:33.reflected in your own document freedom charter. That said South
:29:34. > :29:37.Africa belongs to all that live in it. Black and white.
:29:38. > :29:48.APPLAUSE The woman in the front. The problem
:29:49. > :29:52.is that like people always remain at the bottom, whether you are
:29:53. > :29:56.middle-class or wealthy, you remain at the bottom. The white people
:29:57. > :30:01.always remain at the top. We have mental issues am aware we need to
:30:02. > :30:07.eradicate white supremacy thinking and black inferiority thinking. The
:30:08. > :30:11.important question I want to ask is, Nelson Mandela gave the oppressor
:30:12. > :30:16.property rights, peace, but what did the oppressor gives the black
:30:17. > :30:20.people? I'm sorry, let's hug and kiss. Until we address that issue,
:30:21. > :30:29.we will realise that racism is still a big issue. What did Nelson Mandela
:30:30. > :30:32.give? Nelson Mandela assisted in giving South Africa across the
:30:33. > :30:38.board. He gave his own life to make sure that all of us, black and
:30:39. > :30:43.white, take responsibility. The whites, as you say, they might have
:30:44. > :30:47.their superiority complex. The blacks might have so-called
:30:48. > :30:51.inferiority complex, but one thing I can assure you is that there is a
:30:52. > :30:55.difference between his time when he was here and now. I would not be
:30:56. > :31:04.sitting here, you would not be sitting there. We would not be
:31:05. > :31:12.living where we live. I think we owe it to the legacy of Madiba, as this
:31:13. > :31:17.panel, as this house. He says in his speech, I have fought against black
:31:18. > :31:21.domination and white domination. In other words, we need to come to a
:31:22. > :31:26.point where we realise that democracy is a system, and freedom
:31:27. > :31:32.is a way of life. We need to accept each other, from where we come from
:31:33. > :31:36.and from where we intend to go. As the panel is sitting there, I see
:31:37. > :31:39.the leaders of South Africa who are giving us hope that they will work
:31:40. > :31:44.together to a better South Africa. This cheap political scoring is not
:31:45. > :31:53.going to assist this country and the legacy of Mandela. We spoke earlier
:31:54. > :31:55.about the ANC listening to how people feel, understanding where
:31:56. > :32:00.they are coming from, and what is happening here is that we are
:32:01. > :32:03.talking about an anger that exists, particularly among black South
:32:04. > :32:07.Africans, a sense of dispossession and lack of access to economic
:32:08. > :32:14.resources, but also to dignity and pride, that comes with what is left
:32:15. > :32:19.from the apartheid past. I think what is dangerous is that that anger
:32:20. > :32:22.can be turned into a cheap political tool for people to then turn each
:32:23. > :32:26.other into racial opponents, people who say they stand for black people
:32:27. > :32:31.against white people, for Indian people against coloured people. That
:32:32. > :32:35.is a huge danger that exists in our country. If there is a legacy of
:32:36. > :32:39.Mandela it must be that we cannot accept that all addicts can be
:32:40. > :32:43.turned into a racial battle in which only the heads of political parties
:32:44. > :32:49.that advance racist policies become the victors. I wanted to make a
:32:50. > :32:55.British point, which is that there was a British youngster, young black
:32:56. > :33:00.youngster murdered on our streets called Stephen Lawrence, by racist
:33:01. > :33:04.white folks. Britain has never had apartheid but we have had racism
:33:05. > :33:09.deeply embedded in our society and it takes a long time to get it out.
:33:10. > :33:12.We should distinguish between that and the difficulty the ANC is facing
:33:13. > :33:15.in government and maybe the shortcomings it is criticised for.
:33:16. > :33:25.There is a difference between these issues. Go onto another question. I
:33:26. > :33:30.would like to know, is it not time for South Africa to pursue a more
:33:31. > :33:43.radical approach to wealth redistribution, similar to that of
:33:44. > :33:48.Zimbabwe? Well, Robert Mugabe, approach, if you want to use that as
:33:49. > :33:52.an example, to land distribution, I believe in land distribution. I
:33:53. > :33:56.think that is right. What Robert Mugabe did was to grab the land,
:33:57. > :34:01.putting not just the odd white farmer out of work, but 100 black
:34:02. > :34:07.farmers on every farm. The farms fell into destitution. Zimbabwe,
:34:08. > :34:11.which used to feed the whole of southern Africa, had to start
:34:12. > :34:14.importing food. If you are going to tackle land redistribution, you have
:34:15. > :34:17.to do it sensibly and make sure if you are transferring ownership the
:34:18. > :34:22.farms are farmed in an efficient way, to feed the people, and not end
:34:23. > :34:31.up like Zimbabwe, having to import food, which is a crazy and
:34:32. > :34:36.reactionary policy. We do not need European methods of doing our land
:34:37. > :34:42.reforms. There is no way you can justify, Peter Hain, to tell us how
:34:43. > :34:51.it should be done. We will do it our own way. In fact, we need our land
:34:52. > :34:55.as a matter of urgency. We are not talking ANC. The ANC is a tiny dot
:34:56. > :35:00.on the map of South Africa, because we have many parties here. Even the
:35:01. > :35:05.people who vote to not even make up half of the population of this
:35:06. > :35:11.country. And we are saying, look at me, I am still fairly young, a
:35:12. > :35:27.future decision-makers. We are going to do quite rapid what Mugabe did.
:35:28. > :35:27.future decision-makers. We are going will not address the issue of
:35:28. > :35:32.Zimbabwe here, because I fully agree that when we talk about
:35:33. > :35:39.redistribution of wealth, it is important that it also addresses the
:35:40. > :35:45.past imbalances. Number two, the whole issue of redistribution of the
:35:46. > :35:51.land, the African National Congress put in place proper legislation and
:35:52. > :35:55.regulation in order for us to address that. The reason we did that
:35:56. > :36:02.was simply because we are not going to collapse our South Africa. We are
:36:03. > :36:06.not going to kill any of the systems that were going to be good for us as
:36:07. > :36:10.a way forward. The African National Congress has access did that some of
:36:11. > :36:15.the mechanisms that were put in place to address those issues are
:36:16. > :36:21.not effective. It is this very African National Congress that has
:36:22. > :36:25.come out to say the policy is not working. Let us look for another way
:36:26. > :36:30.of dealing with it. Because at the end of the day, the black people who
:36:31. > :36:34.have been without land for a very long time, we need to give them
:36:35. > :36:40.their land. However, as a matter of principle, we are not going to take
:36:41. > :36:45.the land and give it to people when you have not empowered them enough
:36:46. > :36:56.to be able to produce, in order for the land to be productive. My answer
:36:57. > :37:00.to the question is that we do not need radical land redistribution
:37:01. > :37:03.policies like Zimbabwe. The reason is that it is an unnecessarily high
:37:04. > :37:10.risk solution to a correctly identified problem. But what is the
:37:11. > :37:14.problem? The problem is actually implicitly conceded in what Lindiwe
:37:15. > :37:19.has just said. It is that the existing policies, in terms of their
:37:20. > :37:24.design, are perfectly adequate but the ANC has not faithfully and
:37:25. > :37:27.efficiently implemented it. They are behind their targets of land
:37:28. > :37:33.redistribution. I cannot do a proper government audit of how much land is
:37:34. > :37:38.owned by the state. They have messed up black economic empowerment.
:37:39. > :37:42.Education is in a poor state. My question to South Africans in this
:37:43. > :37:45.audience is that if our indices on inequality, employment and poverty
:37:46. > :37:49.looks different and the land redistribution policy had been
:37:50. > :37:58.faithfully implemented, would that gentlemen have posed that question?
:37:59. > :38:02.The gentleman in the front. I would like to agree with what you are
:38:03. > :38:08.saying. The ANC and this government need to smell the coffee. They do
:38:09. > :38:12.not need to use politics and diplomacy and talking about having
:38:13. > :38:16.peaceful talks and the rest of it. What we need to smell the coffee
:38:17. > :38:21.over is basically, you are talking about redistribution of wealth, when
:38:22. > :38:26.the ANC is redistributing this wealth among their leaders. We need
:38:27. > :38:32.this money to be redistributed to the people. If you go and look at
:38:33. > :38:41.employment, if you go into the history of 1920, or 1930, like the
:38:42. > :38:48.boat's time, the African farmers of this land taught the white man how
:38:49. > :38:52.to farm in this land. It is those old governments that created the
:38:53. > :38:55.railway lines to create employment. The problem is we do not have
:38:56. > :39:00.qualified leaders to run the government. We need people that are
:39:01. > :39:03.qualified, leaders who will not redistribute the wealth to
:39:04. > :39:14.themselves but rather redistribute it to the people that need it.
:39:15. > :39:21.Peter Hain, it would be good for you to update yourself on development in
:39:22. > :39:28.Zimbabwe. There are four books written by Europeans on the success
:39:29. > :39:36.of the programme, as we speak. Our former president, Thabo Mbeki... Why
:39:37. > :39:40.do they have to import food? There was a crisis in Zimbabwe. The UK and
:39:41. > :39:45.the US refused to honour their part of the agreement with President
:39:46. > :39:52.Mugabe and ZANU-PF. They took the land. It is not true that they gave
:39:53. > :39:56.the land to their cronies. Land in Zimbabwe, more than 275 families
:39:57. > :40:00.have the land is now whereas before it was 4000 white people supported
:40:01. > :40:05.by the UK. You have not done your part and you have no moral right to
:40:06. > :40:09.talk about Zimbabwe. But let's talk about South Africa. There is not
:40:10. > :40:16.land reform here. You save the is, you say it is a perfect Wallasey
:40:17. > :40:19.that must be implemented. You say as black people we must buy back our
:40:20. > :40:24.land which was taken from us, stolen from us, and take this money and
:40:25. > :40:28.give it to those who have done so. It is unacceptable. The ANC does not
:40:29. > :40:37.have a land reform programme. It is a piece of paper which says buy back
:40:38. > :40:42.the land. I will give you one factual example. The ANC, for
:40:43. > :40:45.example, labours under the legal ill illusion that it is compulsory in
:40:46. > :40:51.law to pay market price. It does not even understand its own difficulty.
:40:52. > :41:06.It is a government problem, not a policy problem. Instead of policies
:41:07. > :41:09.serving the interest of the people, they are still keeping on serving
:41:10. > :41:18.the interest of the few, you get the pick. So already, as a result of
:41:19. > :41:21.that, we cannot actually visualise anything that will actually be of
:41:22. > :41:28.any benefit to those who are dispossessed. We are here to discuss
:41:29. > :41:35.the legacy of Nelson Mandela and what is going to mean for the future
:41:36. > :41:40.our country. Andy Lay spoke earlier about how it is difficult to choose
:41:41. > :41:44.which Mandela to celebrate. I would argue that this very fashionable
:41:45. > :41:47.word, radical, which is just another word for let's throw out
:41:48. > :41:53.reconciliation, the Constitution and do what our gut tells us, get
:41:54. > :41:57.revenge, all of this talk about radicalism is to fundamentally
:41:58. > :42:01.abandon Mandela's legacy. He was at the forefront of the construction of
:42:02. > :42:05.our constitution, which does advocate a willing buyer, willing
:42:06. > :42:09.seller system. Not for fun, but because we need an economic base
:42:10. > :42:13.from which to grow our economy and enable more people to buy land and
:42:14. > :42:18.become part of the rural economy. You know who buys the land, the
:42:19. > :42:22.government buys the land on behalf of black people who are dispossessed
:42:23. > :42:27.from land ownership under apartheid and colonialism. Let me finish. It
:42:28. > :42:31.is not black people who are funding land reform, it is meant to be
:42:32. > :42:35.funded by the state. The state is meant to provide black South
:42:36. > :42:39.Africans with capital to buy land, provide them with the training and
:42:40. > :42:43.the means to farm the land, enable us to grow our rural economy and
:42:44. > :42:46.feed the nation. That is how to grow and economy and drive
:42:47. > :43:00.reconciliation, not with cheap answers to complex questions. The
:43:01. > :43:05.woman on the far right. When we talk about the land, I feel heavy back
:43:06. > :43:12.pain, because to me land is part of what you call economy. It is our
:43:13. > :43:22.wealth as South Africans. When you talk about the land issue, we are
:43:23. > :43:31.facing a problem here. I am talking to all of the panel. We are facing a
:43:32. > :43:40.problem where there will be the issue of waiting. We are still doing
:43:41. > :43:46.policies. Wait. But while we are looking and watching, this cake of
:43:47. > :43:53.wealthy is finished. You are eating, deleting this cake. And at the
:43:54. > :44:00.grassroots level, we don't even get the leftovers of what you are trying
:44:01. > :44:11.to distribute, whatever slice of cake to yourselves. We are facing
:44:12. > :44:21.that problem. This legacy, we know, we have been crying. You cannot even
:44:22. > :44:25.see us. You say we must respect the legacy of Mr Mandela of saying,
:44:26. > :44:38.reconciliation, forgiveness, but can it happen without reparation?
:44:39. > :44:43.All this debate about racism and everything, is the oppressor white
:44:44. > :44:47.in South Africa. Yes, there is a place for whites in South Africa and
:44:48. > :44:54.that place must be in a just society. The idea and the idea of it
:44:55. > :45:02.is important. We cannot say, let us unite. Let us in a consy lay Tory
:45:03. > :45:06.mood. You cannot say, I must be friends with you. When you come to
:45:07. > :45:10.my house, you kick me out. We meet in the street. You say we must be
:45:11. > :45:18.friends. You have not taken the house, you have taken pr me.
:45:19. > :45:23.-- from me. Can I make this point? No, you always make three when you
:45:24. > :45:32.have room for one. Pik Botha? If I may be allowed.
:45:33. > :45:41.David, I really think that first of all, we must at least have a
:45:42. > :45:49.credible picture of the total South Africa. More than half is so arid
:45:50. > :46:07.and unproductive that it is very difficult to survive. The most
:46:08. > :46:11.productive agricultural lands are in different areas, Eastern and Western
:46:12. > :46:17.Cape. The problem at the moment is, of course land that was taken away
:46:18. > :46:24.must be restore restored, but there is also a duty on us to make sure
:46:25. > :46:28.that our black commercial farm farms have the experience and must be
:46:29. > :46:33.assisted, you know, to do the right choices as far as seeds, the crops.
:46:34. > :46:38.When you say land that was taken away must be restored - do you mean
:46:39. > :46:48.all white land must be taken back and given? No. What do you mean? In
:46:49. > :46:53.many cases, black tribal people, traditional land was taken away to
:46:54. > :46:58.consolidate the homelands. The National Party thought we could
:46:59. > :47:09.escape from the immorality of apartheid by creating independent
:47:10. > :47:14.state states. We p spent billions creating these. That was part of
:47:15. > :47:20.apartheid, the homeland was. You cannot justify it? I didn't try and
:47:21. > :47:30.justify. Would you listen for a moment before you make more remarks.
:47:31. > :47:34.My point is this - it was for us an escape route to escape from the
:47:35. > :47:37.immorality of apartheid. You could not measure the economic
:47:38. > :47:42.integration. That is why the great challenge was in South Africa, you
:47:43. > :47:47.either have to remove apartheid all together. You can could not reform
:47:48. > :47:56.it. You had to remove it all together and start negotiating with
:47:57. > :48:00.the A nsmt NC lead leadership for a new constitution with all the values
:48:01. > :48:03.we must adhere to and that would contain the legacy of Nelson
:48:04. > :48:10.Mandela. We succeeded in that. We did succeed in this.
:48:11. > :48:18.I am going to - no, we only have a few minutes left, sadly. I wish, if
:48:19. > :48:23.more women put their hands up I will call on them. Let's talk this
:48:24. > :48:29.question now from Kgotso Mashabela, please.
:48:30. > :48:37.How does the Government deal with crime and corruption, especially
:48:38. > :48:48.when it has been committed by those who occupy the highest offices?
:48:49. > :48:55.Zulu, a question for you. It is this Government that has put these
:48:56. > :48:59.systems in place. And you know, it is also good for people to be
:49:00. > :49:07.tolerant. We came here to listen to each other. We came here not to poke
:49:08. > :49:16.at each other. So, this... It is this very Government that has put in
:49:17. > :49:21.place systems to deal with white colour crime. It is this -- white
:49:22. > :49:28.collar crime. It is this institution, through institutions
:49:29. > :49:31.which has put - by the way the very public protector was not born
:49:32. > :49:35.somewhere - it is this Government that put that office of the public
:49:36. > :49:41.protector in place. And the public protector is doing
:49:42. > :49:47.her responsibility. She has all the powers to catch, and by the way,
:49:48. > :49:50.everybody has got the right to complain, write letters to all
:49:51. > :49:53.institutions that deal with corruption. Are people convinced
:49:54. > :49:57.this is happening, do you think? Of course they are convinced. There's
:49:58. > :50:01.no problem? No, no, no. I am not saying there is no problem. I am not
:50:02. > :50:07.saying there is no problem. Yes, there is a problem.
:50:08. > :50:11.The fact that they are institutions in place, that our citizens have to
:50:12. > :50:15.take advantage of, means this Government is committed. It doesn't
:50:16. > :50:21.matter where, what level of the office. Here, I am talking about the
:50:22. > :50:28.public protector. The public protector is investigate... Your
:50:29. > :50:35.audience must listen to the response. This is a political lie on
:50:36. > :50:39.the part of the ANC. There are two important wrongs in
:50:40. > :50:42.what she is saying. Number one, the fact that in theory we had
:50:43. > :50:47.institutions of oversight doesn't mean they are culturally embedded in
:50:48. > :50:51.the political system. The public protector she's talking about is
:50:52. > :50:56.coming under very explicit pressure from the ANC Government, that gets
:50:57. > :51:00.it to ask her whether she has a political agenda. Don't praise the
:51:01. > :51:05.public protector's office for existing, but then secretly put
:51:06. > :51:08.pressure on her. Number two... If you want to deal to answer the
:51:09. > :51:13.question directly with this problem, there are things which have not been
:51:14. > :51:16.done yet which you can. In the private sector. Firstly let's call
:51:17. > :51:21.it corruption. Make sure we it corruption. Make sure we
:51:22. > :51:25.criminalise the debaif Yorks, not just fine -- behaviour. Not just
:51:26. > :51:29.fining them. Finally, when it comes to staying in pace corruption, you
:51:30. > :51:33.have something which you lack currently, withsy a political
:51:34. > :51:37.leadership which can publicly flog public corruption. Where is the best
:51:38. > :51:41.example, President Jacob Zuma being silent while we are asking questions
:51:42. > :51:47.about a swimming pool apparently being security.
:51:48. > :51:51.Yes. I said I would come to you. On the gangway there. You say the
:51:52. > :51:56.Government is very committed to dealing with white collar crime. I
:51:57. > :52:00.am very aware there's a lot of crime within the Government and there's a
:52:01. > :52:05.lot of corruption. I am very aware the media tend to focus on that as
:52:06. > :52:09.if corruption is of a black Government thing, whereas there's a
:52:10. > :52:14.lot of corruption in the private sector. Just an example. Any
:52:15. > :52:22.Government corruption story is on the front-page. I myself, when the
:52:23. > :52:28.corruption came out - it was on page ten or something. I leave to a side
:52:29. > :52:34.and put it out there. If the Government is dedicated to rooting
:52:35. > :52:42.out white collar corruption, this is a platform for us to discuss such
:52:43. > :52:48.issues. What will the ANC do if it is found, and I am sure we all have
:52:49. > :52:54.an opinion on this, but if it is found that Jacob Zuma actually did
:52:55. > :52:58.use taxpayers' money, incorrectly so and immorally so, to build his
:52:59. > :53:07.house? Don't give me a political answer. What will the ANC do?
:53:08. > :53:11.You'll have to... You'll have to answer - it is fair you should
:53:12. > :53:15.answer, but briefly. It is not complicated. It's not complicated.
:53:16. > :53:20.Give the answer then. Once there is an investigation, there is an open
:53:21. > :53:24.investigation. The processes for that investigation. Number one.
:53:25. > :53:30.Number two, there is Parliament. And this question, by the way, don't
:53:31. > :53:34.forget it came from her sitting here. She's had the opportunity,
:53:35. > :53:39.even in Parliament, to question the President, standing there at the
:53:40. > :53:45.podium and pose her questions. When I talk about institutions, I mean we
:53:46. > :53:49.have never said as the African nags African National Congress just...
:53:50. > :53:52.All right, she has given her answer. All right!
:53:53. > :53:55.Because you are a President does not give you immunity from the
:53:56. > :54:00.institutions taking action against you. That is your answer.
:54:01. > :54:04.I think you have hit the nail on the head. Is that not the answer you
:54:05. > :54:08.were hoping for? That is not an answer. You have hit the nail on the
:54:09. > :54:12.head. The problem with corruption is people feel there's no
:54:13. > :54:17.accountability. Somebody misuses public funds for personal use. Big
:54:18. > :54:22.business engages in cartels and collusion - it is corruption,
:54:23. > :54:25.straightforward. They are able to budget in their budget for how much
:54:26. > :54:28.they'll have to pay the competition's commission for
:54:29. > :54:32.engaging in that. It feels like there are no consequences for people
:54:33. > :54:35.who misuse public money or who misuse public trust. So the real
:54:36. > :54:39.question you are posing is important. I am committed to the
:54:40. > :54:43.fact if President Zuma has been found to misuse public money for his
:54:44. > :54:47.home, he must be fired. Parliament has the power. Parliament is the
:54:48. > :54:51.institution that hires him. We elect him at the end of the election. The
:54:52. > :54:58.constitution enables us to fire them. What is what she said. I don't
:54:59. > :55:04.think you did say it. I did. I did! You are not an MP. You are not a
:55:05. > :55:14.representative of the ANC - what can the ANC do... . ? Do you think the
:55:15. > :55:20.ANC, if true, should be A nsmt NC be recalled? If any of us are found in
:55:21. > :55:32.any space of corruption, action must be taken. OK. All right - the man in
:55:33. > :55:38.the third row. You, Sir. What you just said - I don't agree with with
:55:39. > :55:42.you. From what happened recently where the mayor got caught doing
:55:43. > :55:48.corruption and got promoted by the ANC, how can you say... The major
:55:49. > :55:54.got caught in -- mayor got caught in corruption. He got promoted. This is
:55:55. > :56:00.an extraordinary occurrence. ANC fired its own mayor. The ANC
:56:01. > :56:04.councillors were fired by the ANC from the city council. There's no
:56:05. > :56:10.accountability. No accountability in this country? The problem the ANC is
:56:11. > :56:14.facing in Government seems to be with two things. One from local
:56:15. > :56:18.Government to the top and secondly, lack of delivery. For example,
:56:19. > :56:23.educating more, double the number of children than pre-apartheid days,
:56:24. > :56:26.but very poor school standards. That has to be dealt with. I want to say,
:56:27. > :56:30.celebrate what you have achieved and what the ANC has achieved. Millions
:56:31. > :56:35.more getting housing. Millions more getting electricity. Millions more
:56:36. > :56:42.getting water.ful incomes going up. A great deal has been achieved. You
:56:43. > :56:45.cannot forget that. Peter, there is an important qualification. If I
:56:46. > :56:50.may, just in 20 seconds. The entire theme which has run out of Peter's
:56:51. > :56:56.commentary in an attempt to create balance. I love you to bits. You are
:56:57. > :57:00.one of my favourite South African born British politicians. The only
:57:01. > :57:04.one. You guys are doing what. What is important for us as South
:57:05. > :57:08.Africans to do, Peter, is say, do you know what we are sick of
:57:09. > :57:14.thinking of ourselves as a teenage democracy. Let's not engage in an
:57:15. > :57:18.troll poll gi of expectations. We must have high standards of
:57:19. > :57:22.expectations. APPLAUSE
:57:23. > :57:28.Go on! The man on the gangway here. No, no, no, I want to go to the man
:57:29. > :57:34.on the gangway there. You, Sir, yes. In the brown jacket. In the question
:57:35. > :57:36.of corruption, I think this lack of emphasis on supporting the
:57:37. > :57:45.whistle-blowers, for example. That is one element T other question I
:57:46. > :57:49.wanted to direct to her, is when will they recall Jacob Zuma? That
:57:50. > :57:57.point has been made. You know, the terrible thing is our hour is up.
:57:58. > :58:02.It is. Go on, then! No, you have spoken
:58:03. > :58:06.already. You have, haven't you? No. I am not going to go to somebody who
:58:07. > :58:10.has already. The lady in the front here.
:58:11. > :58:18.All right, somebody there... Wait, wait, wait! The lady in the front.
:58:19. > :58:24.Yes? One point over there. We know when all is said and done
:58:25. > :58:26.this is a much nicer country than it was pre-1994.
:58:27. > :58:30.APPLAUSE Thank you very much. Our hour is up.
:58:31. > :58:34.I am afraid. Question Time is off the air for three weeks now while
:58:35. > :58:39.the UK Parliament takes a break over Christmas. We will be back on
:58:40. > :58:45.January 9th in lieu wish ham in London. Then on 16th January in
:58:46. > :58:49.Durham. If you would like to come to either, apply via our website or
:58:50. > :58:55.call us on: If you are listening to this on 5
:58:56. > :58:59.Live, you can continue the debate on Question Time Extra Time. I am
:59:00. > :59:02.grateful to all our panelists who came here to take part. Sorry to
:59:03. > :59:07.those of you who did not get a word in. I am grateful to those who did
:59:08. > :59:09.speak. Thank you very much indeed. From Question Times in Johannesburg,
:59:10. > :59:16.good night.