:00:00. > :00:18.Tonight, we are in south London, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:19. > :00:22.Welcome to you at home, to our audience for the first programme of
:00:23. > :00:26.the New Year. They will be asking questions and our panel do not know
:00:27. > :00:31.what will be put to them. They are Liberal Democrat Home Office
:00:32. > :00:34.Minister Norman Baker, Labour's Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka
:00:35. > :00:38.Umunna, Conservative backbench MP, Nadine Dorries, Deputy Leader of
:00:39. > :00:40.UKIP, Paul Nuttall, and the journalist and the blogger known as
:00:41. > :01:03.Fleet Street Fox, Susie Boniface. The first question is from Daniel
:01:04. > :01:09.Rees. Should the young and the poor pay to maintain the living standards
:01:10. > :01:12.of rich pensioners? This, in the light of the Chancellor, George
:01:13. > :01:17.Osborne's announcement that he wanted to see 12 Ilion pounds of
:01:18. > :01:25.cuts from the welfare budget in the next two years after the election.
:01:26. > :01:31.-- 12 billion pounds. I knew you were going to come to me first. This
:01:32. > :01:35.is not a policy which is set in stone. It was not a policy
:01:36. > :01:40.announcement, it was simply announcing a direction of travel
:01:41. > :01:43.that we are going to be going on after the next general election.
:01:44. > :01:48.What is a direction of travel when he says he wants ?12 billion of
:01:49. > :01:55.further welfare cuts? After the next election. He is indicating that the
:01:56. > :02:00.bad times are not over, that we are still in a position where we are
:02:01. > :02:05.going to have to make more cuts and the good days are not here yet. Does
:02:06. > :02:10.he mean it when he says ?12 billion of further welfare cuts? He could
:02:11. > :02:15.not have been missed speaking, surely. He does mean it, but I have
:02:16. > :02:18.to make a confession. I have already voted in this Parliament for
:02:19. > :02:21.something I did not agree with on principle and it is not something I
:02:22. > :02:25.will do again. So I certainly will not be going into a voting lobby to
:02:26. > :02:36.vote to remove housing benefit on the under 25-year-olds. I will not
:02:37. > :02:42.be doing that. However, having said that, savings do have to be made and
:02:43. > :02:46.I think that what we need to do is look at expanding, and we do have
:02:47. > :02:52.two all be in this together. The cuts do have to come from a wider
:02:53. > :02:58.perspective. I do not think it is right that we have pensioners, some
:02:59. > :03:04.very wealthy, who are still in receipt of various benefits. I think
:03:05. > :03:08.what we need, I am actually a supporter to a degree of the mansion
:03:09. > :03:11.tax. I think we need to look at other ways of making the savings and
:03:12. > :03:15.other areas they can come from. I am not sure we can continue to ring
:03:16. > :03:18.fence some of the big budgets, which actually means there are very few
:03:19. > :03:24.areas where the Chancellor can go to make savings. So it tends to target
:03:25. > :03:27.the young and appears to be targeting the younger people and
:03:28. > :03:31.welfare. Welfare is the right way to go. We were spending too much on
:03:32. > :03:35.welfare but I am not they support of some of the announcements that have
:03:36. > :03:41.been made. But I do think we need to look at other areas we can go to. We
:03:42. > :03:44.invited you here as a vague support of the government, but clearly you
:03:45. > :03:51.are not. George Osborne has already lost one vote. I vote on principle
:03:52. > :03:54.and I will not vote to remove benefits from the under
:03:55. > :04:00.25-year-olds. They have taken enough hits. The Liberals said these
:04:01. > :04:06.proposals were extreme, unrealistic and a monumental mistake. The desire
:04:07. > :04:10.to get some blue water between us and the Labour Party as the next
:04:11. > :04:13.election approaches. I agree we have two eliminate the structural
:04:14. > :04:18.deficit. There is more work to do on that. More has to be done. That does
:04:19. > :04:22.not mean we have to balance the deficit on the back of the poorest
:04:23. > :04:33.people in society. That is not the right way to do it. You mentioned
:04:34. > :04:39.the mansion tax and that seems a sensible proposition. Houses do not
:04:40. > :04:43.move and cannot be avoided in terms of paying tax. We should recognise
:04:44. > :04:47.that increasing council tax bands by adding two or three at the top would
:04:48. > :04:52.be a good way to raise money and not affect the poorest. We need to also
:04:53. > :04:56.look at tax loopholes. Danny Alexander has done a great deal to
:04:57. > :04:59.clamp down on tax evasion and these overseas Territories, where people
:05:00. > :05:03.have been stashing their money. Let's have some more income from
:05:04. > :05:10.that. We can look at capital gains tax, and why winter fuel allowance
:05:11. > :05:16.is paid to pensioners in Spain. Paul Nuttall, where does UKIP stand? I
:05:17. > :05:22.think what George Osborne is doing is playing politics on this issue.
:05:23. > :05:26.At first they were talking about making a start on the 12 billion
:05:27. > :05:30.from wealthy pensioners, looking at the winter fuel allowance, TV
:05:31. > :05:34.licence, the bus pass. But they backtracked because generally
:05:35. > :05:38.pensioners, wealthy pensioners vote, and will generally vote
:05:39. > :05:41.Conservative, I suspect. Instead, they are attacking the most
:05:42. > :05:47.vulnerable in society who do not generally vote Conservative. They
:05:48. > :05:51.are looking at housing benefit for under 25-year-olds, and that people
:05:52. > :05:59.who live in council houses who earn over ?60,000. To me, that only adds
:06:00. > :06:04.up to ?1 billion of savings, out of 12 William. So there is still a huge
:06:05. > :06:09.black hole. Are you in favour of cuts in welfare? The welfare budget
:06:10. > :06:15.under labour spiralled out of control to the point whereby it was
:06:16. > :06:20.costing each household ?300,000 -- ?3000 extra. It could not go on and
:06:21. > :06:23.something had to be done. There is another budget which is
:06:24. > :06:28.ring-fenced, which comes to around 12 billion, the foreign aid budget.
:06:29. > :06:34.I am not against giving money to countries in dire need. People who
:06:35. > :06:38.need to be fed. But what I'm opposed to his giving money to countries
:06:39. > :06:42.like Argentina, whose sabre rattle over the Falklands, Brazil, which
:06:43. > :06:48.has just overtaken us. You would save 12 billion that way. Let's get
:06:49. > :06:53.it clear, are you in favour of cuts in the welfare budget or not? Yes or
:06:54. > :06:57.no? I believe there have to be cuts but they are being made in the wrong
:06:58. > :07:02.area, and the way you should pay for these cuts is by going for the
:07:03. > :07:06.foreign aid budget and taking money from countries that do not need it.
:07:07. > :07:09.Frankly, that is your tax, your money, and that foreign aid budget
:07:10. > :07:15.should be spent on our own people in this country. This attack on
:07:16. > :07:22.pensioners is rather imbalanced. Most pensioners are not rich. Those
:07:23. > :07:26.that are, they pay a lot of tax. What is forgotten is five years of
:07:27. > :07:31.very low interest rates, which has decimated many older people's
:07:32. > :07:35.income. What do you make of the proposal to cut on younger people's
:07:36. > :07:40.welfare and leave the pensioners protected? I think that is something
:07:41. > :07:45.that should be very carefully reconsidered. I just do not think
:07:46. > :07:55.this divide and rule of our society, the old against Young, is to get us
:07:56. > :07:59.anywhere. Think about it. The pensioners we are talking about, we
:08:00. > :08:03.say they do not care whether their grandchildren get jobs, or if they
:08:04. > :08:06.are in work, that they can earn more. The cost of living crisis
:08:07. > :08:11.which is affecting everybody in the country is something that needs to
:08:12. > :08:14.be dealt with. We have people earning on average ?1600 less than
:08:15. > :08:18.they were when the government came to office. Norman, for you to be
:08:19. > :08:21.sitting on this panel talking about the need for fairness when you voted
:08:22. > :08:30.through the bedroom tax is beyond me. The way, ultimately, we will be
:08:31. > :08:36.able to deal with the public finances, and of course we are in a
:08:37. > :08:41.tough situation in terms of debt and deficit, is by getting more people
:08:42. > :08:45.into work. Tragically, we have almost 1 million young people out of
:08:46. > :08:49.work. And for those in work, we need to ensure that their money goes
:08:50. > :08:53.further. At the moment, at the end of the day they are working harder
:08:54. > :09:03.than ever before for less. And we need to deal with that. Are you in
:09:04. > :09:09.favour of any cuts in welfare? We accepted at the beginning of this
:09:10. > :09:13.Parliament the switch of the operating of Anna fits from RPI to
:09:14. > :09:18.CPI because we recognise there were issues that needed to be addressed.
:09:19. > :09:24.But you have to do that in a fair way. People are not earning enough,
:09:25. > :09:27.so we need to ensure, for example, that we enforce the National minimum
:09:28. > :09:31.wage. There are 300,000 people who are not getting that who should be.
:09:32. > :09:40.We need to make sure people are interesting of a living wage, that
:09:41. > :09:47.you can actually live off. -- that people are receiving a living wage.
:09:48. > :09:51.That way, you get more income tax revenue, more corporation tax
:09:52. > :09:55.revenue, and then you can deal with your deficit. The reason we have
:09:56. > :09:57.this debt and deficit issue coming out of the crash caused by the
:09:58. > :10:10.bankers was because tax receipts plummeted. The bankers!
:10:11. > :10:14.It is because you maxed out the credit cards of the country. With
:10:15. > :10:18.the greatest of respect, your solution to the situation with
:10:19. > :10:20.public finances is just to abolish the Department for International
:10:21. > :10:28.Development and everything will be OK. No. We need more people in work
:10:29. > :10:32.and earning more. At the heart of the question is more about whether
:10:33. > :10:37.we feel those with less should shoulder the burden in times of
:10:38. > :10:42.hardship. Actually, I do not think we are in it together. If you look
:10:43. > :10:44.over the last few years, people on benefits are really struggling.
:10:45. > :10:49.Rather than cutting welfare that much, we should be looking at
:10:50. > :10:52.promoting growth. I do not mean in terms of what George Osborne has
:10:53. > :10:55.been saying about doing great and coming out of the recession, because
:10:56. > :10:59.people are not feeling it at the bottom. It means job creation and
:11:00. > :11:09.opportunities, not just London focused, but everywhere. The
:11:10. > :11:15.original was question, should young people pay the cost well pension and
:11:16. > :11:19.age benefits are protected. The answer is no. But it seems that the
:11:20. > :11:23.other people around this table are operating in a state of denial.
:11:24. > :11:27.There is something we cannot argue about, which is that we have more
:11:28. > :11:33.older people than young people. People will, at a certain age, get
:11:34. > :11:37.pension age benefits. There are not enough younger people to pay for
:11:38. > :11:41.that in the future. It is coming down the track. You cannot avoid it.
:11:42. > :11:44.It is coming and the main parties need to find a way to address that
:11:45. > :11:49.problem. The problem is, as the gentleman here mentioned, older
:11:50. > :11:55.people vote in greater numbers than younger people do. And they feel
:11:56. > :11:58.they have paid into a system for all of their lives and should get
:11:59. > :12:01.something out of it towards the end. You did not pay into a saving
:12:02. > :12:10.account and have the money allotted for you when you are 65. It has been
:12:11. > :12:13.spent already. It has gone. What is your proposal? It is not me that has
:12:14. > :12:17.to make the decision, it is these guys, but they have to decide how to
:12:18. > :12:21.address pension age benefits because you cannot keep paying it to wealthy
:12:22. > :12:24.pensioners. There is no harm whatsoever in starting that debate
:12:25. > :12:28.and having a sensible debate and bringing in a voluntary opt out
:12:29. > :12:31.system, so if you do not want your winter fuel allowance and if there
:12:32. > :12:35.is a sensible government campaign that says, give up your ?300 and it
:12:36. > :12:38.will go to helping a single mum in your street, you will find some
:12:39. > :12:42.people opting out. Then it would become or palatable for some people
:12:43. > :12:47.to agree that some benefits they can give up the car they do not need
:12:48. > :12:54.them. That would be a start. -- they can give up because they do not need
:12:55. > :12:59.them. The way is to get more people into work and earning. In fact,
:13:00. > :13:03.since the general election, 1.6 million private sector jobs have
:13:04. > :13:07.been created and have been filled. Today, there are more people in
:13:08. > :13:10.work, and I queried this because I found it hard to believe, there are
:13:11. > :13:15.more people in work today than there have ever been in work in this
:13:16. > :13:20.country, ever. That is quite a statistic and an achievement. 8
:13:21. > :13:24.million of those people are women. We have 8 million women in full-time
:13:25. > :13:29.work today for the first time ever. What is the nature of the work and
:13:30. > :13:35.how much are they earning? We have a proliferation of people on zero
:13:36. > :13:43.hours contracts. Well, it is work they did not have before, work that
:13:44. > :13:45.was not there before. When this government came to power, Ed
:13:46. > :13:52.Miliband said, 1 million jobs will disappear. 1.6 million have been
:13:53. > :13:56.created. Ed Balls said it was a fantasy that each private sector job
:13:57. > :14:00.would grace a public sector job that had disappeared. Actually, private
:14:01. > :14:08.sector jobs have replaced public sector jobs by four to one. Are we
:14:09. > :14:12.really saying, though, I have said it is a good thing and I believe it
:14:13. > :14:16.is a good thing, of course, that more people are in work. But the
:14:17. > :14:23.question is, how ambitious are we for the country? Will any job do, or
:14:24. > :14:27.do we actually want to see... If you have been on welfare out of work,
:14:28. > :14:32.any job will do. I would say we want to get people earning more. If you
:14:33. > :14:40.have a job that does not pay enough that you can live off...
:14:41. > :14:44.The woman in pink? We don't need cuts to pensions. You are not
:14:45. > :14:49.getting them they are protected. ?70 billion a year is lost to the
:14:50. > :14:54.Treasury in tax evasion a further ?25 billion in tax avoidance. If
:14:55. > :14:57.that money, if there was a serious attempt, I mean not just this
:14:58. > :15:02.government, the previous government as well, if a serious attempt was
:15:03. > :15:07.made to claw that money back from the tax havens and the tricks these
:15:08. > :15:11.people use, if that was done we would have enough money to staff our
:15:12. > :15:15.hospitals, education system and bring back the libraries we have
:15:16. > :15:29.lost, replace the fire stations being closed down. It's very, very
:15:30. > :15:31.easy. APPLAUSE
:15:32. > :15:34.A serious attempt has been made and is being made and is bringing us a
:15:35. > :15:39.significant income from that particular scream. We have invested
:15:40. > :15:45.well over ?1 billion on dealing with tax avoidance. With every ?1 we have
:15:46. > :15:49.spent we got ?9. It's working. It's a top priority... They cut the
:15:50. > :15:54.number of tax inspectors. In terms of tax avoidance and evasion,
:15:55. > :16:00.particularly in overseas deposit, we are getting ?9 in for every ?1. She
:16:01. > :16:06.is saying you would get ?100 billion? We have got billions back.
:16:07. > :16:11.?93 billion. Can I make the point about income tax as well. Chuka
:16:12. > :16:15.Umunna was talking about helping, as I was, about helping the poorest in
:16:16. > :16:21.society. The reality is, under Labour, we saw the abolition of the
:16:22. > :16:30.10p tax raid rate, doubling income tax for the poorest people. We
:16:31. > :16:36.raised the tax threshold to ?10,000 - ?705 better off as a consequence
:16:37. > :16:39.of that every year. 2.7 billion taken out of tax altogether. That is
:16:40. > :16:44.what this coalition government has done for the poorest people.
:16:45. > :16:50.Employment is at its highest level. Unemployment is lower than we took
:16:51. > :16:53.over from you in 2010. You should remember Ed Balls has started to be
:16:54. > :16:58.nice to be the Liberal Democrats. You don't have to take it out on
:16:59. > :17:03.Norman any longer. OK. I will move on. I will move on to another
:17:04. > :17:04.question. As always you can join in this debate of course from home by
:17:05. > :17:27.text or Twitter. Our hashtag is: When it right to shoot someone who
:17:28. > :17:32.hasn't been unarmed? Who is unarmed? Who has been unarmed? When is it
:17:33. > :17:38.ever right to shoot someone who is unharmed. Not when is it legal, but
:17:39. > :17:42.when is it right? Mark Duggan is in Michelle's mind? I will come to your
:17:43. > :17:47.question, but I think the first thing I'd like to say about this is
:17:48. > :17:52.your heart goes out to the family here. Before we even answer your
:17:53. > :17:57.question, you know we have a family that has lost a brother, a son,
:17:58. > :18:01.above all a parent and his children were quite young. I lost a parent
:18:02. > :18:05.when I was pretty young. It's tough. This has happened under the glare of
:18:06. > :18:13.the media. On your question, which of course goes to the verdict, the
:18:14. > :18:16.inquest verdict, to many people, many won't understand how it can be
:18:17. > :18:22.that a man who can be shot who is unarmed, that is a lawful killing.
:18:23. > :18:27.Ultimately, unless we were amongst the 10 jurors, ordinary people, like
:18:28. > :18:31.all of us here, who heard the evidence, visited the scene, I'm
:18:32. > :18:36.certainly... I don't know, I'm not prepared to second guess that jury.
:18:37. > :18:39.At the end of the day, we have to be very clear what the police officer,
:18:40. > :18:41.what they were being asked to determine, which is whether the
:18:42. > :18:46.police officer concerned, who fired the shot, had an honest and
:18:47. > :18:50.reasonably held belief that Mark Duggan posed an imminent threat and
:18:51. > :18:54.obviously the inquest verdict was that he did. I tell you what I do
:18:55. > :18:58.know. I might not know what I would have done in that position, what I
:18:59. > :19:04.do know is that there are still a lot of questions to be answered. The
:19:05. > :19:07.jury found that the police should have collected, or could have
:19:08. > :19:11.collected, more evidence before stopping the car. Why? Why was the
:19:12. > :19:16.car removed from the scene in the hours after? Why was no
:19:17. > :19:21.investigating officer appointed within the first 48-hours after what
:19:22. > :19:27.had happened? Of course, we also know that if you look at confidence
:19:28. > :19:32.in the police per se, I mean I would say, in my borough, we are here in
:19:33. > :19:37.London my constituency stealth ham is in Lambeth, police community
:19:38. > :19:41.relations, the black community, is better than they were in the 1980s,
:19:42. > :19:45.no doubt about that. We have outstanding issues. For example, the
:19:46. > :19:47.disproportionate stop and search of young black people on London's
:19:48. > :19:55.streets. APPLAUSE.
:19:56. > :20:00.We have a situation where there are too many deaths in custody of black
:20:01. > :20:04.people and people wonder why. In that context, when something like
:20:05. > :20:10.what happened in the Mark Duggan case occurs, the trust isn't there
:20:11. > :20:13.because you've got things undermining that trust. We need to
:20:14. > :20:17.deal with that. I will finish by saying this though, I think the
:20:18. > :20:21.police do an incredibly difficult job, I wouldn't do it. I'm not sure
:20:22. > :20:25.I would be able to do that job. But for them to be able to do it
:20:26. > :20:30.effectively, they have got to be able to command the trust of the
:20:31. > :20:37.public who they are policing. That is the big problem right now.
:20:38. > :20:40.APPLAUSE Norman Baker, you are a Home Office
:20:41. > :20:45.Minister, do you agree with Chuka Umunna there are many questions that
:20:46. > :20:50.remain unanswered about the way the police handled this whole thing?
:20:51. > :20:55.Yes. I think the analysis was pretty accurate. The reality is that we
:20:56. > :21:00.have had a jury verdict. We have to respect juries, it's an essential
:21:01. > :21:04.part of our legal system. They did sit for three months and heard 93
:21:05. > :21:08.witnesses as part of that process. They have reached a conclusion after
:21:09. > :21:11.due consideration, but there were indeed elements of the police
:21:12. > :21:15.activity that were brought into question. It's not finished here
:21:16. > :21:17.because the Independent Police Complaints Commission is undertaking
:21:18. > :21:23.further investigations into this matter. The we are looking, a at
:21:24. > :21:25.Government Government, to strengthen the Independent Police Complaints
:21:26. > :21:30.Commission anyway and bringing in a code of conduct, ethics for all
:21:31. > :21:33.police officers. The stop and search powers that Chuka Umunna referred
:21:34. > :21:37.to. We have started a review of those last year. We are taking that
:21:38. > :21:41.very seriously. It's important we have policing by consent in this
:21:42. > :21:46.country. When we have a serious incident like this it's important it
:21:47. > :21:51.is properly looked into from all aspects to minimise any problems in
:21:52. > :21:55.the past, in the future. You sir. The Metropolitan Police Police
:21:56. > :22:02.Commissioner today suggested that armed response units should wear
:22:03. > :22:07.video surveillance, do the panel this would increase trust in the
:22:08. > :22:16.police? Yes. What do you think? It's does else world in the -- where in
:22:17. > :22:22.the world. To good effect. It would have been very reassuring to the
:22:23. > :22:25.family of Mark Duggan. APPLAUSE
:22:26. > :22:29.I think you're absolutely spot on. I think that that video cameras on the
:22:30. > :22:35.equipment of firearm officers would make a lot of sense. I think it
:22:36. > :22:38.would provide us with greater transparency and more
:22:39. > :22:42.accountability. It would give us, as people, probably a greater
:22:43. > :22:46.understanding and a great sympathy, I suppose in many ways, about the
:22:47. > :22:50.difficult job that these people do. Decisions have to be made in split
:22:51. > :22:54.decisions. We are not talking about minutes here, we are talking
:22:55. > :22:58.literally seconds. You know, it works for the armed forces. We had
:22:59. > :23:01.the prosecution which came off the back of the murder of an
:23:02. > :23:07.Afghanistan, where that type of equipment was used. It makes perfect
:23:08. > :23:11.sense to incorporate it into firearms arm services here in this
:23:12. > :23:15.country. Michelle's question wasn't whether it was legal, but whether it
:23:16. > :23:18.was right ever to shoot someone who is unarmed, slightly different
:23:19. > :23:23.question? I think the officer involved obviously thought that his
:23:24. > :23:27.or others lives were in danger and the jury have supported that
:23:28. > :23:32.version. Look, the jury have looked at this for three months. They have
:23:33. > :23:36.interviewed 93 people. You know, this has been... They had a real
:23:37. > :23:42.in-depth look at this. Let us not forget these are 10 people choosen
:23:43. > :23:47.randomly performing a civic duty. I'm sorry, I don't think it helps
:23:48. > :23:49.when politicians come out... I think it's irresponsible actually when
:23:50. > :23:53.they try to question the decision that the jury have come to. I must
:23:54. > :23:56.say that the family coming out this morning as well and calling for
:23:57. > :24:01.calm, have you to give them respect for that, absolutely.
:24:02. > :24:04.APPLAUSE I like the noises which have come
:24:05. > :24:09.out of the Metropolitan Police today and the fact that the Commissioner
:24:10. > :24:13.has gone to Tottenham to mean community leaders. Lettuce us hope
:24:14. > :24:17.for calm and that things work out and people can move forward. We have
:24:18. > :24:22.to consider the question of trust here. We have talked about that, but
:24:23. > :24:27.we are talking about what happened in the moment. What happened
:24:28. > :24:30.afterwards was that the police briefed the media. They didn't brief
:24:31. > :24:37.the family. They didn't see the family they spoke to the media. They
:24:38. > :24:40.briefed against dug Mark Duggan without seeing his family. That is
:24:41. > :24:45.the real issue of trust here. That is something we all have to
:24:46. > :24:48.consider. The Independent Police Complaints Commission misbriefed
:24:49. > :24:52.what actually happened. The woman in the second row from the back there.
:24:53. > :24:57.Yes. Sadly, this case is just one in a long line whether it was Ian
:24:58. > :25:02.Tomlinson, Stephen Lawrence, Andrew Mitchell, where the police have not
:25:03. > :25:07.only had serious failings, but also nothing seems to have changed. How
:25:08. > :25:12.do we make the police more accountable in these cases? Susie
:25:13. > :25:16.Boniface. APPLAUSE.
:25:17. > :25:20.It's more than just... The original question was, is it ever right to
:25:21. > :25:24.shoot an unarmed man. Of course the answer is no. Nobody can say it's
:25:25. > :25:29.right. Part of the problem is this use of the world "lawful" in the
:25:30. > :25:33.jury's verdict. Every day use of that word means it would be OK with
:25:34. > :25:36.us, the definition in terms of that inquest is different, it doesn't
:25:37. > :25:40.necessarily mean what it would mean in every day speech. That is why
:25:41. > :25:45.there has been confusion and upset as what comes out as a lawful
:25:46. > :25:48.verdict. It's also the fact that any of us in that situation, with the
:25:49. > :25:51.information that police officer had, at that time, with your finger on
:25:52. > :25:55.the trigger, how many of us may also have pulled the trigger? The issue
:25:56. > :26:01.was that the intelligence he was given at the time the jury foundual
:26:02. > :26:04.nanniously 10-0 he did not have the right information when he was put in
:26:05. > :26:08.that position am we asked people to do very horrible jobs for us in the
:26:09. > :26:11.police force on a regular basis and shoot people sometimes. I'm sure, I
:26:12. > :26:15.don't know who he is, I don't want to make assumptions, I'm sure he
:26:16. > :26:20.worries about that decision he made and thinking it over and over and
:26:21. > :26:23.over. If he had the right decision, had the right information he would
:26:24. > :26:30.have perhaps done differently. I wish it wasn't just miss briefing
:26:31. > :26:33.the Independent Police Complaints Commission gave to journalists. When
:26:34. > :26:37.they knew that was wrong, they did not tell the journalists. They
:26:38. > :26:40.allowed that story to continue. That's more than wrong and
:26:41. > :26:44.unethical, it's appalling. The police didn't see Duggan's mum for
:26:45. > :26:49.four weeks after her son had been killed. She was getting information
:26:50. > :26:55.from the TV news, that is what causes distrust, riots and problems.
:26:56. > :27:02.Plagues. Everyone can understand... The man up there, you, sir. Why is
:27:03. > :27:07.there this unquestioning belief in juries? Not many other countries use
:27:08. > :27:11.the same system as us. We have to look into this as well? Would you
:27:12. > :27:19.rather a judge made that decision? I have spoken to people who have been
:27:20. > :27:23.in juries, they said decisions are made on purely illogical
:27:24. > :27:28.information. The man there. Is there any strong evidence linking Mark
:27:29. > :27:32.Duggan to actually having possession of the firearm? From what it seems,
:27:33. > :27:36.if I was in the situation where I shot somebody until self-defence,
:27:37. > :27:41.they had, there was no evidence to show they were going to shoot me, I
:27:42. > :27:44.somehow think the outcome might be difficult for me compared to a
:27:45. > :27:49.police officer. I think that should be questioned.
:27:50. > :27:54.APPLAUSE. There are a number of aspects to
:27:55. > :28:01.this case, the human aspect which is Mark and Mark's family. My own
:28:02. > :28:05.brother died at the same age of Mark. I know the pain. I can
:28:06. > :28:09.understand that pain of loss of a sibling. It's... They must have been
:28:10. > :28:13.through this horrific process of waiting for the trial and all the
:28:14. > :28:19.misinformation and being briefed against. It must have compounded
:28:20. > :28:23.insult upon injury and their grief so much more intense. Then there is
:28:24. > :28:26.the other side of the case, about what actually happened. My
:28:27. > :28:29.understanding is the police had intelligence that Mark was
:28:30. > :28:35.collecting a gun. They followed the car. The gun was in the car. Mark
:28:36. > :28:40.left the car, with the gun in his hand. He lifted the gun. We know now
:28:41. > :28:43.to throw it. If you're the policeman who is facing him, when Mark lifts
:28:44. > :28:48.his hand with that gun, how do you know he is going to throw it? How
:28:49. > :28:52.can do you know he isn't going to aim at you? I would ask the question
:28:53. > :28:55.- what was Mark doing with a gun in his hand? Where was he going with
:28:56. > :29:01.that gun? What was he going to do with it? If you carry a gun in
:29:02. > :29:05.London you take a risk. I think it was an appalling situation. I'm
:29:06. > :29:10.really glad to hear that the police are now going to wear cameras so
:29:11. > :29:14.that every single second of what happeneds -- what happens, 50
:29:15. > :29:19.people, 53 people were killed by guns in London over the last three
:29:20. > :29:25.years, I think it is. Three police shots have been fired. Putting that
:29:26. > :29:30.in context, the police are keeping us safe. 53 people were killed with
:29:31. > :29:34.guns, it seems to be a growing problem, I think it's one that we
:29:35. > :29:37.need to look carefully at because the police are dealing with a very
:29:38. > :29:42.difficult situation, which is a rise in gun crime. I think cameras on
:29:43. > :29:45.their uniforms is a very good way about making this problem -- making
:29:46. > :30:00.sure this problem doesn't happen again. I think a lot of the problems
:30:01. > :30:11.with the inherent distrust between members of the community and the
:30:12. > :30:14.police probably has to do with, still very short on representation
:30:15. > :30:17.of the black and ethnic minority community among the police,
:30:18. > :30:23.especially among the senior ranks is, who have to make operational,
:30:24. > :30:32.strategic and, you know, decisions they have to make.
:30:33. > :30:37.I think what is concerning is that we now know he did not have a gun
:30:38. > :30:42.and he was shot, unarmed, and killed. And you compare it to what
:30:43. > :30:48.happened in Greenwich, where the two guys were brandishing weapons, and
:30:49. > :30:52.the police maimed them. People are now wondering, he did not have a
:30:53. > :31:00.gun, why was he killed when he could have been maimed? Maiming is usually
:31:01. > :31:03.by accident. Police tend to fire at the body mass, because it is the
:31:04. > :31:08.only way to guarantee you are getting the shot. There is also a
:31:09. > :31:13.narrative growing that it was all right to shoot Mark Duggan because
:31:14. > :31:17.he was a wrong one. That is not OK. The fact that he may have had a gun,
:31:18. > :31:23.may have thrown a gun, does not make it right to shoot him after he
:31:24. > :31:28.dropped the gun. The reports were saying he was shooting. People do
:31:29. > :31:35.not trust the information when it comes to police shooting someone
:31:36. > :31:41.dead. Let's go to another question. Now that the tidal wave of Romanian
:31:42. > :31:47.and barbarian immigrants has failed to materialise, -- Algerie and, will
:31:48. > :32:16.be racist rhetoric subside. URI mania on yourself. Yes. Will be
:32:17. > :32:23.racist rhetoric subside, Paul Nuttall? How did I know you were
:32:24. > :32:36.coming to me? We have said all along we do not know how many Romanians
:32:37. > :32:42.and barbarians -- Bulgarians will come. Migration watch UK say that
:32:43. > :32:48.50,000 will come per year for the next five years. That is 250,000.
:32:49. > :32:51.The Institute for democracy says it will be 385,000 over five years,
:32:52. > :32:58.which is a city not similar to Bristol. What we are saying in UKIP
:32:59. > :33:03.is that it makes no sense economically to have a whole open
:33:04. > :33:07.border, to the whole of Europe, because we have two welcome members
:33:08. > :33:13.of the European union because freedom of movement and peoples is
:33:14. > :33:17.enshrined in the treaties. It makes no sense to have an open door when
:33:18. > :33:20.you have 2.4 million people unemployed and 1 million young
:33:21. > :33:23.people in this country who cannot get a job. It makes no sense
:33:24. > :33:29.whatsoever to saturate the employment market any further. And
:33:30. > :33:37.on top of that, freedom of movement of people might work when you have
:33:38. > :33:40.got economies of a similar size and where the wages are similar, so
:33:41. > :33:50.ourselves, France, Scandinavian countries. When it does not work is
:33:51. > :33:56.if you take, for example, Bulgaria, where the minimum wage is 150 euros
:33:57. > :34:00.a month. The traffic will only be one way. Frankly, we do not think we
:34:01. > :34:04.can cope, and we would like to see a points -based system, where if you
:34:05. > :34:09.have the skills this country needs, yes, come and work. But it makes no
:34:10. > :34:14.economic sense to have an open door when we have 1 million of our own
:34:15. > :34:20.young people unemployed. Do you want to come back on that? There have
:34:21. > :34:22.been any number of surveys which have proved that actually
:34:23. > :34:34.immigration is of a positive economic and fit to this nation. --
:34:35. > :34:38.positive economic benefit. Actually, there have been a number
:34:39. > :34:42.of studies which prove actually it does not. Nigel Farage made the
:34:43. > :34:49.point the other day, and I concur, if it means we are a little poorer,
:34:50. > :34:52.I would like us to control our own borders. If we carry on the way we
:34:53. > :34:57.are going the population of this country will be 88 million by 2060,
:34:58. > :35:04.and I think we are pretty full already. You are full of something!
:35:05. > :35:09.The question about whether racist rhetoric will end is plainly no,
:35:10. > :35:14.because it will carry on. What was racist about that? I am descended
:35:15. > :35:18.from migrants, Danish and Irish, both of whom have been treated
:35:19. > :35:21.reasonably good and bad in this country, both of whom are
:35:22. > :35:24.hard-working. One worked in the Army and the other as a house made for
:35:25. > :35:28.very little money. Both came and have their families here and
:35:29. > :35:36.produced and were part of Britain. If you want to send me back, feel
:35:37. > :35:39.free. We have a migration issue in this country. We have always had
:35:40. > :35:44.opened doors and people can come and go. That is what has made Britain
:35:45. > :35:48.great over the years. That is what we are. Most migrants in this
:35:49. > :35:51.country, 40,000 last year, came from China. What was the Prime
:35:52. > :35:54.Minister's response to the terrible problem of Chinese migration? He has
:35:55. > :35:59.relaxed the Visa rules for the Chinese. It is all right if they
:36:00. > :36:04.come. He does not want people who looked dusky and dark and do not
:36:05. > :36:15.bring enough money in. The way we talk about immigration... Frankly, I
:36:16. > :36:18.find the way we have discussed the migration issue utterly appalling,
:36:19. > :36:23.completely disgusting, obnoxious, offensive and very un-British. I
:36:24. > :36:35.would like to grow up and be sensible. -- I would like it to grow
:36:36. > :36:39.up and be sensible. In order to go for the populist cheer, she did not
:36:40. > :36:42.mention that David Cameron has no authority whatsoever over our own
:36:43. > :36:46.borders and the European Union and how many people come here. We cannot
:36:47. > :36:51.set immigration targets on who comes to us from within the European
:36:52. > :36:54.Union. We have no idea how many people are going to come, but we
:36:55. > :37:00.know how many millions of people have the rights to come if they want
:37:01. > :37:04.to. Now, a large part of Britain this week, over the last few weeks
:37:05. > :37:07.and over Christmas has seen flooding. One of the problems with
:37:08. > :37:11.flooding is that we are building on our flood planes, so we have less
:37:12. > :37:15.and less area of the country where water can drain away from. You might
:37:16. > :37:19.think we can deal with that. You might think so, as long as you are
:37:20. > :37:24.not in the areas that have been flooded. The only way we can control
:37:25. > :37:28.immigration into this country is to leave the European Union. The only
:37:29. > :37:32.way that is going to happen is if we have a referendum, and the only way
:37:33. > :37:34.you are going to get that is making sure you get the Conservative
:37:35. > :37:40.government because it has committed to a referendum in 2017, to give
:37:41. > :37:46.British people the choice whether we are in or out. So if you do not want
:37:47. > :37:50.to have an open-ended target of people who can come to this country,
:37:51. > :37:55.you will have an opportunity to go and vote and say no, because David
:37:56. > :37:58.Cameron has no legal powers to stop anybody from in the European Union
:37:59. > :38:03.coming here and settling here if they want to. That is what our entry
:38:04. > :38:15.of the European Union means. Are you against the tidal wave of Romanian
:38:16. > :38:18.and Bulgarian immigrants? There has been no tidal wave, but there might
:38:19. > :38:28.be tomorrow or next year. We do not know. We don't know. This is the
:38:29. > :38:32.problem. And I really object to these objectives and targets - we
:38:33. > :38:35.are going to have a cap on immigration. We cannot cap
:38:36. > :38:39.immigration because we have open borders and we are legally unable to
:38:40. > :38:44.do that. The only solution is to vote Conservative and have your say
:38:45. > :38:47.in a referendum in 2017, and go to the polls and decide whether you
:38:48. > :38:51.want to be in or out of the European Union. And then you can come here
:38:52. > :38:57.and argue the case about whether or not we have open borders. I take
:38:58. > :39:02.issue with that. If you are Spanish, where unemployment among the under
:39:03. > :39:05.25-year-olds is high, you might come to London to look for a job. If you
:39:06. > :39:11.do not find a job quickly, you will probably go back to Spain. I pay
:39:12. > :39:17.?600 a month in rent and bills to live in London. I think the 1
:39:18. > :39:20.million people unemployed in the UK, which is continually rolled out,
:39:21. > :39:24.those are people in the North of England, in areas where industry has
:39:25. > :39:29.collapsed, in areas where there are no jobs for those people, there is
:39:30. > :39:34.long-term unemployment which is endemic. We have around 750,000
:39:35. > :39:39.illegal immigrant in the country and we do not know where they are. We
:39:40. > :39:43.have net migration of 200,000. The scenario of people coming here and
:39:44. > :39:47.deciding they can get a job and then going does not exist. People come
:39:48. > :39:52.and base day. The people they present the biggest threat to, those
:39:53. > :39:55.who come from Spain and Romania and other countries, who have not got
:39:56. > :40:01.skills, who come and take the jobs of what we would call blue-collar
:40:02. > :40:04.workers. So it is people in constituencies like Harlow and
:40:05. > :40:07.others who actually feel the threat of not having protection on the
:40:08. > :40:13.borders, because they feel their jobs are in competition. How do they
:40:14. > :40:17.just take the jobs? It is someone's choice to employ somebody. They do
:40:18. > :40:23.not pitch up and suddenly, I am going to have your job. They apply
:40:24. > :40:30.for jobs in the same way that everybody else those. And in a
:40:31. > :40:36.market economy, if I choose to employ someone from Spain... Because
:40:37. > :40:40.of the black market economy, people taking less than the minimum wage to
:40:41. > :40:46.work. That is a totally separate issue. It is a real issue and it
:40:47. > :40:50.exists. Reith so do something about the back market economy. Norman
:40:51. > :41:00.Baker, what do you say to him, her and him. I remember canvassing in
:41:01. > :41:05.the easterly by-election last year, and what you conclude from the UKIP
:41:06. > :41:09.campaign is that not only were the population of both those countries
:41:10. > :41:17.coming to the country but going to that constituency. You have to be
:41:18. > :41:20.very careful about language on this. Hyping a sensitive issue does not
:41:21. > :41:26.help a sensible discussion about an issue which concerns many people.
:41:27. > :41:30.There is a lack of logic applied to this. Vince Cable was telling me
:41:31. > :41:34.that one of his constituents said, I am fed up with all these people
:41:35. > :41:39.coming to the country and I am going to live in Spain, with no sense of
:41:40. > :41:42.irony. He was exercising the same rights to live in Spain that people
:41:43. > :41:47.were using to come here. We have Brits all over the European Union,
:41:48. > :41:54.working, studying, exercising their rights. If we start limiting other
:41:55. > :41:58.people's writes, they will start limiting hours as well. Of course we
:41:59. > :42:02.want people to come and work. We do not want people to come here just
:42:03. > :42:05.for treatment on the health service. The way this has been approached in
:42:06. > :42:12.some elements of the media has been destructive. We have to be careful
:42:13. > :42:20.with the language we use. Is anybody on the panel aware that 7000
:42:21. > :42:24.Romanian and Bulgarian students have been capped from financing by David
:42:25. > :42:28.Willetts? Nobody has been warned of this. The funds have been withdrawn
:42:29. > :42:31.from their own accounts and they have been given short notice by the
:42:32. > :42:43.college is to abandon their programmes. Are you one of these? I
:42:44. > :42:51.am one of their representatives. I understand the point you are making.
:42:52. > :43:02.Is that it? It is a summary cessation of financing for Romanians
:43:03. > :43:09.and Bulgarians in practice. Wires that happening? I cannot give you a
:43:10. > :43:12.direct answer to that. I am a son of an immigrant and I think immigration
:43:13. > :43:16.has been a good thing for our country. Go back to the 1950s when
:43:17. > :43:19.people arrived on the Empire Windrush and help to rebuild the
:43:20. > :43:25.country after the war. What with the NHS do without immigrants, never
:43:26. > :43:31.mind that we have got a funeral bell is as from our immigrants. The thing
:43:32. > :43:35.is, I think all that people want is a system that is properly controlled
:43:36. > :43:39.and managed. More work needs to be done on that. They want immigration
:43:40. > :43:42.to work for us, economically, and also people coming over to
:43:43. > :43:48.integrate. What I have found with this, I have heard some of the
:43:49. > :43:54.comments already, I do not think it is an issue of racism with a lot of
:43:55. > :43:56.people. In my constituency in the 2010 general election, ironically,
:43:57. > :43:59.the people who raised the immigration issue with me more than
:44:00. > :44:05.others were my African and Asian constituents. It was really about
:44:06. > :44:11.that immigration is a proxy for people's concerns about the economy.
:44:12. > :44:14.Where I have a big issue with what Nadine Dorries and Paul Nuttall are
:44:15. > :44:18.saying is that the problem with our economy is that it is too low waged
:44:19. > :44:22.and low skilled. Among Western economies, we are fifth in terms of
:44:23. > :44:25.how our percentage of the labour force is made up of those jobs. If
:44:26. > :44:30.we shut the borders and leave the European Union, it will not solve
:44:31. > :44:37.that problem. What we need to do is to transform our economy, so that we
:44:38. > :44:39.grow our manufacturing base and deliver more jobs that pay more
:44:40. > :44:46.money and that will solve the problem.
:44:47. > :44:50.Allowed in 13 years more people to come to this country than in the
:44:51. > :44:55.1,000 years. 4 million net to come. You have been apologising for it
:44:56. > :44:58.ever since? Have you been apologising for it ever since. You
:44:59. > :45:01.miscalculated. In working-class towns and cities up-and-down the
:45:02. > :45:05.country, people have come on to building sites, people have been
:45:06. > :45:13.under cut and British workers have been driven off. You find them
:45:14. > :45:17.either unemployed or driving taxis (inaudible) We heard Jack Straw and
:45:18. > :45:22.David Blunkett apologising Saaing it was a mistake. You can include Peter
:45:23. > :45:25.Mandelson, if you like. You don't apologise for, it you think Labour
:45:26. > :45:29.has made no mistake? I certainly wouldn't say that. In terms of the
:45:30. > :45:32.transitional controls in respect of the countries that joined the
:45:33. > :45:37.European Union in 2004 we made a mistake in not play transition
:45:38. > :45:41.controls. What I would say to Paul is, the way you help people is
:45:42. > :45:45.enforce the minimum wage. Get living wages and grow our economy. I see
:45:46. > :45:48.absolutely no suggestions what so ever coming from your party that
:45:49. > :45:51.will help the communities that you are talking about at all. You don't
:45:52. > :45:55.do it by saturating the job market even further. That is what is
:45:56. > :45:58.happening. You need to transform the job market. You have nothing to
:45:59. > :46:03.offer in that direction at all. Hold on a second, Paul. Hold on. What do
:46:04. > :46:08.you have, as Labour, to say to the 77% of people in this country, you
:46:09. > :46:13.have seen the statistic according to the British Social Attitudes, who
:46:14. > :46:18.want to see immigration cut? What is Labour's answer on that? We believe
:46:19. > :46:20.there was too much of it from the European Union. There is one
:46:21. > :46:24.important thing about the European Union, the founders of the European
:46:25. > :46:28.Union had in mind free movement of workers not free movement of job
:46:29. > :46:32.seekers. Undoubtedly we do have to work with our European partners to
:46:33. > :46:36.deal with that. I met with a number of them this week. They are very
:46:37. > :46:40.open to that. If we constructively engage with them instead of saying -
:46:41. > :46:46.do what we want or we will walk off. What is free movement of workers not
:46:47. > :46:52.of job seekers. You can't go and look for a job - No the point is, if
:46:53. > :46:56.you come over. A radical reform of the EU Treaty coming on. No, what
:46:57. > :46:59.people intended when they built the European Union in the first
:47:00. > :47:02.instance, people who had a job or had the skills to get a job would
:47:03. > :47:06.move around the European Union. The problem that we have had at the
:47:07. > :47:11.moment is that you had, during our time in office, this is where we did
:47:12. > :47:15.make a mistake, you had high skilled people coming from other countries
:47:16. > :47:20.to do low skilled jobs here. That is where we said... There was too much
:47:21. > :47:28.- When it was set up, it was set up with countries with pretty similar
:47:29. > :47:31.economies. When you let the whole of east Eastern Europe you let in
:47:32. > :47:36.countries that were far poorer. It's all one way. Cannot deacon instruct
:47:37. > :47:43.the argument. I promised this lady on the left she would have a quick
:47:44. > :47:48.word. Nadine, I've forgotten your surname, the liberal gentleman, I
:47:49. > :47:54.have forgotten your name. It doesn't matter. Being serious at the moment,
:47:55. > :48:03.what I object to strongly is that this coalition government which both
:48:04. > :48:10.of you belong to, use smokescreen of immigration to hide what you are
:48:11. > :48:16.doing privatising the NHS, killing the welfare service. You're a woman,
:48:17. > :48:22.you should care because women are going to be left holding the baby
:48:23. > :48:27.when you bring us back to pre-1948 because we can't... You can't go
:48:28. > :48:31.can't you can't get legal aid any more. Who suffers, women? They are
:48:32. > :48:36.in a terrible marriage, they can't get out of it. The husband has the
:48:37. > :48:43.money, or the partner. Somehow you are trying so well to make
:48:44. > :48:49.immigration the big issue while you quietly, as I say, privatise the
:48:50. > :48:54.health service, as you know, the welfare service you kill, are
:48:55. > :49:00.bringing in the gagging law. Also, Lewisham, as you know, we went to
:49:01. > :49:04.court with Mr Hunt, we won, both times, so just to say... You are
:49:05. > :49:08.losing a bigger audience, people don't know what happened in
:49:09. > :49:17.Lewisham. No. You have touched on a point which brings us to our last
:49:18. > :49:26.question. The 118 clause. I'm so tired... You can answer. Janet.
:49:27. > :49:30.Giving overcrowding in A and maternity departments, how will the
:49:31. > :49:37.ongoing programme of closures help? Nadine you can answer that and the
:49:38. > :49:42.lady on your left at the same time. Well, Section 1 18, so let us just
:49:43. > :49:51.talk about that and bring that in. If I can touch on Lewisham. You have
:49:52. > :49:55.to explain what Section 118 is, I'd rather you did. Lewisham A was
:49:56. > :50:02.under threat. It was the last time I was here on Question Time. Under
:50:03. > :50:06.Chuka Umunna government a PFI contract was set up so the hospital
:50:07. > :50:11.had to pay ?1 million in debt interest payments. There was a
:50:12. > :50:16.threat to the hospital. Section 118 has been brought in to enable an
:50:17. > :50:19.administration organisation, which again was brought in under the last
:50:20. > :50:25.government, to look at the most effective way using experts, made up
:50:26. > :50:29.of both doctors and clinical staff and accountants to speedily deal
:50:30. > :50:33.with the issues surrounding those hospitals because the reason why the
:50:34. > :50:36."speedily" is used is because people who use hospitals are patients and
:50:37. > :50:41.are ill and people's lives are important. So when a hospital is
:50:42. > :50:45.failing, as we've seen with a number of hospitals, that something has to
:50:46. > :50:50.happen quickly. For anybody who thinks, I have seen the propaganda
:50:51. > :50:56.that Section 118 will be used when it goes through on Lewisham. It will
:50:57. > :50:59.not. Lewisham is stlutly protected. I had confirmation of that from the
:51:00. > :51:04.Department of Health this afternoon. It will not apply to Lewisham. If
:51:05. > :51:13.anybody is worried about that. We know that. You have had your go. How
:51:14. > :51:22.is the ongoing programme of closures going to help? Norman Baker. I must
:51:23. > :51:25.say in response to the last question, my party, the Lib Dems,
:51:26. > :51:28.has not used immigration as a smokescreen for anything, I want
:51:29. > :51:34.that on-the-record on this programme. Secondly, in terms of the
:51:35. > :51:37.health service, this government has quaranteed above inflation funding
:51:38. > :51:43.for the health service through this parliament. Despite the difficult
:51:44. > :51:46.economic circumstances we find yourselves -- ourselfs in because of
:51:47. > :51:52.the importance of the NHS, which is something I support. Some people
:51:53. > :51:55.haven't liked the reforms. GP local commissioning and better integration
:51:56. > :51:59.between health and social services and more treatment locally without
:52:00. > :52:03.everybody having to go to A for the most minor incident. That has to
:52:04. > :52:10.be good as a direction of travel. I think we have got quite a good story
:52:11. > :52:16.to tell - Didn't they say they would stop central closure of maternity
:52:17. > :52:21.and A wards? I don't think we are directing closures of hospitals.
:52:22. > :52:27.They are happening? They may be happening because the GP
:52:28. > :52:35.commissioning might be using other means. Paul Nuttall? From what I've
:52:36. > :52:42.read. I have briefly read up on the Lewisham situation, is that the
:52:43. > :52:47.protest group took Mr Hunt to court and they won. Mr Hunt appealed in
:52:48. > :52:55.October and lost. Congratulations, well done to all you guys. Also,
:52:56. > :53:00.from what I've read, Lewisham wasn't failing anyway. However, if I can
:53:01. > :53:04.move on quickly. APPLAUSE.
:53:05. > :53:08.You want to get to the NHS anyway? I'm not against the NHS. I would
:53:09. > :53:15.like the NHS streamlined. The NHS is too big at the moment. You say, "the
:53:16. > :53:20.very existence of the NHS stifles competition" that's what you told...
:53:21. > :53:27.Look. I genuinely believe that competition drives quality, equally
:53:28. > :53:31.the NHS, the cost of the NHS trebled under Labour. We are getting older.
:53:32. > :53:34.The population is going up. We have to have a debate pretty soon in this
:53:35. > :53:39.country how we fund healthcare. I'm telling you now, within the next 20
:53:40. > :53:44.years it's going to be unsustainable if we continue on the road that
:53:45. > :53:49.we're on. When you say "it's very existence stifles competition" I
:53:50. > :53:55.quote you again "as long as it's the sacred cow of British politics" do
:53:56. > :53:59.you want us to pay for it? We need a debate in this country how we will
:54:00. > :54:06.fund healthcare in the next century. It's stuffed with managers. For
:54:07. > :54:13.every nurse, there are two managers. 48%, 48% of people who work for the
:54:14. > :54:17.NHS, in England, aren't clinically trained. I want to see money going
:54:18. > :54:21.to nurses and doctors. I want to see red tape cut. I basically want to
:54:22. > :54:29.see the NHS streamlined so we all get a better service. Thank you. The
:54:30. > :54:35.clause 118 is extremely important. Clause 118 of the bill going through
:54:36. > :54:40.the Lords at the moment. It's the Government's attempt to recover from
:54:41. > :54:44.from the Lewisham defeats. Nadine wrongly said is a thriving
:54:45. > :54:53.successful hospital -- I didn't say it wasn't. It wasn't solvent. From a
:54:54. > :54:58.neighbouring trust with financial issues decided to draw Lewisham into
:54:59. > :55:01.that. Close the A here. It was rejected by the courts. The
:55:02. > :55:05.Government is trying to change the rule that any future administrator
:55:06. > :55:13.would be able to willy nilly close other services. This is wrong. Let
:55:14. > :55:17.us leave Section 118 and return to the question. I don't know how you
:55:18. > :55:21.can sit there with a straight faces to say you are proud of your
:55:22. > :55:26.Government's record. Let's look at A Let's look at A In the last
:55:27. > :55:30.12 months over a million people have had to wait more than four hours to
:55:31. > :55:34.be treated in A The problems we've got in A are partly also
:55:35. > :55:39.triggered by the Government's cuts to social care. Which have meant
:55:40. > :55:42.it's been more difficult to discharge elderly patients. There
:55:43. > :55:46.has been a backing up in the beds. 5,000 less nurses. The Government
:55:47. > :55:53.shut down a quarter of NHS walk-in centres. You say you are proud of
:55:54. > :56:02.that? ! What planet are you on? Is The statistics of the NHS... It's
:56:03. > :56:06.shameful the We can quote statistics selectively if you want to do so.
:56:07. > :56:12.They demonstrate quite a good record on the A in this government. I'm a
:56:13. > :56:19.resident of Greenwich my hospital is the one that had this scheme started
:56:20. > :56:23.by Labour which was in debt which meant yours get closed. The question
:56:24. > :56:29.was, would closures help the problem in the NHS, the answer is no. The
:56:30. > :56:33.fundamental problem you've got, for 65 years, ever since 1948,
:56:34. > :56:37.politicians have wanted to tinker with something, very, very good.
:56:38. > :56:40.They have wanted to change it, fix it, streamline it, cut it and slice
:56:41. > :56:48.it and think they can improve it somehow. The fundamental thing about
:56:49. > :56:52.NHS, despite our financial and economic anxieties, in 1948 they
:56:53. > :56:57.were worse than they are now, despite our anxieties the most civil
:56:58. > :57:00.sized thing in the world to do is put the the welfare of the sick
:57:01. > :57:05.above everything else. That is what the NHS does.
:57:06. > :57:10.APPLAUSE. We have to stop. I will take a point
:57:11. > :57:14.from the gentleman there. You, sir, yes. This problem has been ongoing
:57:15. > :57:20.for many years that nobody has addressed. That's not rightle. In
:57:21. > :57:23.2002 I went to A, spent more than 10 hours waiting in A, I don't
:57:24. > :57:33.want to tell you the hospital where I went to. Someone said (inaudible)
:57:34. > :57:39.all politicians want to kick the football, I kick it to you and you
:57:40. > :57:42.kick it to me. We find a goal post, which is inaccurate. Someone
:57:43. > :57:47.mentioned about the managers. There are too many managers. There are a
:57:48. > :57:52.lot fewer now than there were. I have colleagues who work for the NHS
:57:53. > :57:56.practitioners who tell me they push you about. They don't know what
:57:57. > :57:59.should be happening on the ward. All right. That should be addressed. A
:58:00. > :58:03.lot of hands up. The panel would like to come back and comment on
:58:04. > :58:07.that. We only have one hour for Question Time. We have to stop. I'm
:58:08. > :58:14.sorry about that. Our time is up. Next week, we will be in Durham, the
:58:15. > :58:20.Archbishop of York will be among the panellist there. The week after that
:58:21. > :58:27.we will be in Dundee. If you want to come o to Durham or Dundee apply,
:58:28. > :58:32.the web address is on the bottom or call: If you are listening to this
:58:33. > :58:37.on Radio 5 Live the debate goes on on Question Time Extra Time. My
:58:38. > :58:44.thanks to our panellists here and all of you who came here to Lewisham
:58:45. > :58:49.to take part in this were gram. Until next Thursday, on Question
:58:50. > :58:56.Time, good night.