:00:00. > :00:18.Tonight, we are in Durham, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:19. > :00:22.And welcome to you watching at home, to our audience, who asked the
:00:23. > :00:26.questions and argue with the panel, who do not know what will be asked
:00:27. > :00:30.of them. The chairman of the Conservative Party, Grant Shapps,
:00:31. > :00:34.Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary, Mary Creagh, president of the
:00:35. > :00:40.Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron, radio talk show host Julia Hartley-Brewer,
:00:41. > :00:51.and the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu.
:00:52. > :01:01.Our first question is from Matthew Ferguson. Is Benefit Street an
:01:02. > :01:04.example of broken Britain, and what more can be done to stop people
:01:05. > :01:11.living off the state for their entire lives? This was the programme
:01:12. > :01:14.put out by Channel 4. Is it an example of broken Britain, and what
:01:15. > :01:23.can be done to stop evil living off the state their entire lives? -- to
:01:24. > :01:29.stop people living off the state. There have been a lot of people
:01:30. > :01:35.complaining about that programme. To characterise all those on benefit to
:01:36. > :01:39.be that is really what is going on in our society, I do not think it is
:01:40. > :01:44.right. I used to be Bishop of Birmingham and I know the problems
:01:45. > :01:47.in that city. I also know there are people at the moment who are not
:01:48. > :01:50.just on benefits but working and finding it very difficult to make
:01:51. > :01:54.ends meet. So I think it took a particular section of people and
:01:55. > :01:59.tried to give the impression that everybody on benefit is just like
:02:00. > :02:01.that, so we had better stop it. I believe individual responsibility
:02:02. > :02:07.matters and people have to be careful what they do. Also, there
:02:08. > :02:11.are some places where to get a job is very difficult. But it is
:02:12. > :02:16.readable -- reasonable to talk about that part of Birmingham. It is
:02:17. > :02:19.clearly a place with an interesting story and the problem. It is an
:02:20. > :02:22.interesting story and a problem but the problem we have at the moment is
:02:23. > :02:27.the suggestion that people are feckless and that is why they are
:02:28. > :02:32.all on benefits. We have to be very careful. The money that has been
:02:33. > :02:36.taken out of welfare and caring is so huge, and we are expecting people
:02:37. > :02:41.to just make ends meet. It is good to be in and study it, but do not
:02:42. > :02:44.sensationalise it in the sense of suggesting that most people on
:02:45. > :02:48.benefits are just as that particular street. That street needs a lot of
:02:49. > :02:54.help, support, care and encouragement, and make sure it is
:02:55. > :02:58.not simply a question of out of benefits into work. Some problems
:02:59. > :03:04.actually to break the cycle of this dependency takes a long time, and
:03:05. > :03:12.sometimes generations. Matthew Ferguson, what did you make of it? I
:03:13. > :03:15.think it shows what is wrong with the welfare system that people on
:03:16. > :03:19.benefits can go and spend all of their money on cigarettes, alcohol
:03:20. > :03:23.and drugs, but people who are working cannot do the same thing. I
:03:24. > :03:26.think the government should start giving people food vouchers for
:03:27. > :03:29.supermarkets and travel passes, so they can get to the job centre and
:03:30. > :03:39.work, instead of giving them free money. And did you see it as typical
:03:40. > :03:45.of broken Britain, the phrase used by the Conservatives at the last
:03:46. > :03:47.election? I think it is. The cap the government has put on welfare is
:03:48. > :03:54.probably the right step and more needs to be done. You, in the second
:03:55. > :03:58.row. What do you think? Many of the benefits are paid to the working
:03:59. > :04:02.poor. There are other feckless, but they are not the majority. I have
:04:03. > :04:07.seen some deprivation around the world, which makes that street
:04:08. > :04:12.looked like luxury. But many benefits are paid to older people,
:04:13. > :04:16.to working people who have been badly treated in this country with
:04:17. > :04:21.regard to the minimum wage, living wage, zero hours contracts and what
:04:22. > :04:23.have you. Yes, there is a bad picture in Benefits Street. I
:04:24. > :04:29.certainly believe it has been edited. But politicians, look at
:04:30. > :04:32.yourselves. What are you going to do to deal with it, to help people?
:04:33. > :04:39.What are you going to do, admittedly, with less money? I do
:04:40. > :04:43.not know about the production quality and standards of that rogue
:04:44. > :04:48.RAM. There have been accusations about whether it was complete. --
:04:49. > :04:51.that programme. This morning on the radio there was a couple who work in
:04:52. > :04:56.that street who have not featured in the programme is shown. But the
:04:57. > :04:59.worst thing of all, as has been suggested, is the idea that when you
:05:00. > :05:04.try to get out of the trap of benefits, it does not pay. In other
:05:05. > :05:10.words, work must always pay in this country. And that is a fundamental
:05:11. > :05:13.change is to the benefits system. Through the universal credit that
:05:14. > :05:16.Iain Duncan Smith has spent so much time bringing in, that is the most
:05:17. > :05:20.important thing that could happen in this country. The gentleman
:05:21. > :05:24.mentioned the working poor. You may not have heard this afternoon but
:05:25. > :05:29.the Chancellor has said that the government would like to see that
:05:30. > :05:33.minimum wage rise to perhaps something like ?7, to take into
:05:34. > :05:38.account inflation. He said that is possible because we have taken some
:05:39. > :05:41.of those really difficult decisions, as the Archbishop says. We came into
:05:42. > :05:47.government at a time when this country was about to go bust. When
:05:48. > :05:53.we had the same debts as Greece, where your family had all been cost
:05:54. > :05:58.?3000 because of the great recession. We had to do something,
:05:59. > :06:02.and that included making sure that benefits, like housing benefits,
:06:03. > :06:05.came under control. But the biggest help we can give is making sure that
:06:06. > :06:16.when people work they are always better off by doing a days work than
:06:17. > :06:19.on benefits. My first reaction to the programme was that I did not
:06:20. > :06:25.need to watch the television to see the effects of poverty on the lives
:06:26. > :06:28.of people, because my casework, my surgeries are full of people
:06:29. > :06:32.describing the effects of the government's welfare changes on
:06:33. > :06:35.their lives. And they come to me when their disability living
:06:36. > :06:40.allowance has been stopped, and they are waiting for six months, 12
:06:41. > :06:44.months on a reduced income with the same outgoings, waiting for an
:06:45. > :06:49.assessment. And I see people who have delays in their benefits, and I
:06:50. > :06:53.talk to my local church and the food bank they are running, and I see the
:06:54. > :06:57.heartbreaking letters. I visited a food bank in Stevenage last week,
:06:58. > :07:01.and they described to me the people crying as they got their Christmas
:07:02. > :07:06.hampers, as they came just before Christmas and there was a hamper and
:07:07. > :07:10.they were collecting outside Asda. That was my first instinct, but then
:07:11. > :07:13.I watched the second episode. What I saw in that episode was the church
:07:14. > :07:18.and the counsellors working together to try to enter the street into
:07:19. > :07:22.Britain in Bloom. I saw people trying to brighten up the area,
:07:23. > :07:25.clearing up the rubbish, planting hanging baskets. I also saw people
:07:26. > :07:31.coming to work on the fields as labourers, working 17 hours a day
:07:32. > :07:35.and getting ?10. What is the government doing to tackle the
:07:36. > :07:39.abuses in the employment industry that means that we effectively, in
:07:40. > :07:42.the agricultural sector and other sectors of the economy, are having
:07:43. > :07:54.people working effectively in slave like conditions? You, sir, over
:07:55. > :07:56.there. I worked for 21 years, and Jude to this government's policies I
:07:57. > :08:02.was made unemployed for three months. To be labelled a scrounger
:08:03. > :08:05.by someone like Matthew at the back of the room is an absolute
:08:06. > :08:11.disgrace. I am not a scrounger. I paid taxes for 21 years. I did not
:08:12. > :08:17.think you called him a scrounger. He labelled me as a drug addict. I
:08:18. > :08:23.don't think he did. He didn't even see you from where he was. It was
:08:24. > :08:29.more the people who cheat the system and stay on it for their whole
:08:30. > :08:33.lives. The woman in the middle. I just think people are rude equipped
:08:34. > :08:38.to say, go and get a job, if you are not in that situation. -- people are
:08:39. > :08:42.really quick to say it. We have graduates who cannot get a job and
:08:43. > :08:46.we expect people with possibly no work experience to get a job. I
:08:47. > :08:49.tried getting a job when I had no work experience when I was younger
:08:50. > :08:53.and they said, you do not have work experience. How do you expect people
:08:54. > :08:57.to get it? If you want people to volunteer, that does not pay money.
:08:58. > :09:01.They still need benefits, so you don't realise how much people are
:09:02. > :09:11.trying to get these jobs. Did you see the programmes? Yes, and I agree
:09:12. > :09:15.that they generalised way too much. The vast majority of people who are
:09:16. > :09:21.unemployed wants to get work but there is a minority working the
:09:22. > :09:25.system. Why can't we talk about that? Why is a programme that
:09:26. > :09:30.highlights that being accused of demonising them? Isn't that
:09:31. > :09:34.something we can talk about? Exactly. There seem to be two
:09:35. > :09:38.different criticisms this week of Benefits Street as poverty porn. One
:09:39. > :09:41.was that these people do not exist and this is outrageous, a
:09:42. > :09:47.generalisation. And then there was, if they do exist, we should not
:09:48. > :09:50.demonise them. The vast majority of people claiming unemployment benefit
:09:51. > :09:54.do so for a matter of months between getting jobs, but there is an
:09:55. > :09:59.underclass, a section, a small but growing minority of people who are,
:10:00. > :10:02.you say working the system, but I think the system is working them. I
:10:03. > :10:06.think the problem is not people being angry at these people, but
:10:07. > :10:09.people should be angry at the system and the politicians, including those
:10:10. > :10:16.on this panel, who have allowed this to happen. We have an entire section
:10:17. > :10:19.of society being left to rot. How would you stop it happening if you
:10:20. > :10:24.were a politician, because you are in the comfortable position of being
:10:25. > :10:28.a commentator? It is very difficult to get people into work when we have
:10:29. > :10:32.so many unemployed. There are not enough jobs for everybody who is
:10:33. > :10:35.under -- unemployed. But in the boom years, under Labour, there were
:10:36. > :10:39.enough jobs. We were importing people to do the jobs while we left
:10:40. > :10:43.an underclass out of work on the scrapheap with no incentive to get
:10:44. > :10:48.up. You have no skills or qualifications. But it does not
:10:49. > :10:53.matter, we will pay you to live a life like that. Drinking lager at
:10:54. > :10:57.10am. If I had nothing to get up for, I would be drinking lager at
:10:58. > :11:00.10am. These people are making rational choices. They can do a
:11:01. > :11:03.minimum wage job if they can get it and they will be a couple of quid
:11:04. > :11:08.better off than they would be on the dole. Why would they bother? We have
:11:09. > :11:13.created a system, and voters have allowed to happen as well, where we
:11:14. > :11:17.will accept that there are 500,000 people left on the scrapheap for the
:11:18. > :11:21.rest of their lives. It is a terrible economic waste, but also a
:11:22. > :11:24.terrible waste of a human life and potential. Everyone who has been a
:11:25. > :11:33.politician in the last 20 years should be ashamed of themselves. Is
:11:34. > :11:39.she right? Is it the fault of the politicians? I suspect that when the
:11:40. > :11:44.welfare state was set up, Beveridge never intended it to be something
:11:45. > :11:50.for nothing. It was always something for something. He intended it to be
:11:51. > :11:55.a social insurance through which people could be helped in the
:11:56. > :11:59.short-term. The problem is that we have 5 million low paid workers who
:12:00. > :12:06.are now, most of them, needing to depend on food banks. So it isn't
:12:07. > :12:09.true that work pays. Until you lift the 5 million out of poor wages so
:12:10. > :12:12.they can actually support their families properly, you will always
:12:13. > :12:15.have this problem. The other thing is that the Prince of Wales trust
:12:16. > :12:21.bought out a report that three quarters of a million young people
:12:22. > :12:25.feel they have no future, no hope. How are you going to do that unless
:12:26. > :12:29.you get a system in which, that is why I am on the living wage
:12:30. > :12:35.commission, it is good that the Chancellor talks about ?7, but
:12:36. > :12:38.Professor Baines, who started the minimum wage actually said, had it
:12:39. > :12:43.kept up with inflation people would now be paid ?19 and our, not just
:12:44. > :12:53.?7. So you need something more dramatic than that. -- ?19 per hour.
:12:54. > :12:57.It is not dishonest journalism. It is a better programme than some of
:12:58. > :13:00.the press has suggested that it is selective. These are real people and
:13:01. > :13:05.they represent a proportion of the UK. But you could just as easily
:13:06. > :13:08.picked a street in Kensington and Chelsea with people on seven figure
:13:09. > :13:15.salaries who are absolutely scrounging and not paying any tax.
:13:16. > :13:18.That is absolutely absurd! No more observed than what we are talking
:13:19. > :13:23.about. Those people exist in this country. It is appalling that you
:13:24. > :13:28.have a group of people, represented by this programme, who, whether they
:13:29. > :13:33.realise it or not, are effectively robbed of their dignity. It is right
:13:34. > :13:36.that we understand that the way out of poverty has to be work. What I
:13:37. > :13:41.find intolerable is the way that many people decide to divide and
:13:42. > :13:46.rule between the working poor and the nonworking poor. The average
:13:47. > :13:49.person who is out of work desperately wants to get into work,
:13:50. > :13:52.and we need to support them to do that, which is why I am delighted
:13:53. > :13:55.that George Osborne has caught up with Vince Cable and wants to
:13:56. > :13:59.increase the minimum wage. That should happen. It is right that the
:14:00. > :14:05.government has lifted the income tax threshold so you now have 24 million
:14:06. > :14:08.people with an ?800 tax cut and the lowest paid 2 million paying knowing
:14:09. > :14:15.contacts. I meet tonnes of people in my constituency in the late strict
:14:16. > :14:18.with low unemployment, who are better off on benefit. -- my
:14:19. > :14:24.constituency in the late district. The answer is not to demonise those
:14:25. > :14:28.who through no fault of their own are on benefits.
:14:29. > :14:36.You, Sir? Poverty is a disease. It's very difficult to get out of that
:14:37. > :14:41.disease. The people that are in poverty are the people that are
:14:42. > :14:47.being exploited by the power companies, the gas companies and the
:14:48. > :14:52.landlords that are supplying their houses. This is a big problem. The
:14:53. > :14:57.exploitation of people in poverty because most of the people in
:14:58. > :15:02.poverty have came from poverty and the benefits system is only improved
:15:03. > :15:06.in the last 20 years. You can't say it's always been a fantastic
:15:07. > :15:11.benefits system. I must admit, it is a wonderful benefits system we have.
:15:12. > :15:18.But people in poverty have came from poverty. It is very difficult to
:15:19. > :15:21.escape it. OK. You? Being a recent graduate from the North East, I have
:15:22. > :15:24.struggled to get a job here. I want to stay in the North East. I know in
:15:25. > :15:30.order to do what I want to doily have to move to London. Why can't we
:15:31. > :15:37.recognise that decentralisation of jobs and opportunities need to be
:15:38. > :15:42.brought to the North East? What did you make of the stories that were
:15:43. > :15:46.told in Benefits Street and the conundrum that was posed there? I
:15:47. > :15:50.think, there are people who genuinely do want to work. Those
:15:51. > :15:54.people are not represented on reality TV shows. It's always like
:15:55. > :15:58.the archbishop said, the people wo we think are the feckless ones in
:15:59. > :16:03.society. The woman up there, on the left? I don't believe in "Broken
:16:04. > :16:07.Britain." I think there's part of Britain that is rubbing along quite
:16:08. > :16:10.nicely, thank you very much. There are broken communities within
:16:11. > :16:13.Britain. Successive governments through changes in industry, which
:16:14. > :16:17.has been completely removed from this community, have robbed people
:16:18. > :16:21.of the chance for a really decent working wage. Then we had a
:16:22. > :16:25.Government after that that created an over-reliance on state handouts.
:16:26. > :16:29.People don't need money, they need community-led initiatives that will
:16:30. > :16:33.help them find their own opportunities out of the situation
:16:34. > :16:37.they find themselves in. APPLAUSE
:16:38. > :16:42.I'm from the other side of the Pennines. I loved every minute of
:16:43. > :16:46.the four years I spent up here at university in Newcastle. What I saw
:16:47. > :16:50.in this part of the world - and you see it in the North West as well -
:16:51. > :16:55.is you have big industries where people work really hard all their
:16:56. > :17:00.lives that collapsed in the '80s. What happened then was you got a
:17:01. > :17:04.sequence of inherited welfare dependency, a one generation ended
:17:05. > :17:07.up out of work and without hope. That almost became inherited. That
:17:08. > :17:11.is why we have to understand that the solution to "Broken Britain," or
:17:12. > :17:14.whatever it is, is not to concentrate everything on the City
:17:15. > :17:17.of London and on the South East of England. There are proud cities like
:17:18. > :17:23.this one that can lead from the front. #6 Let's come back to
:17:24. > :17:29.Matthew's question -- let's come back to Matthew's question. Grant
:17:30. > :17:32.Shapps, what can be done to stop people living off the state?
:17:33. > :17:37.Archbishop John Sentamu says it should be ?18 or ?19? I don't think
:17:38. > :17:45.the figure is correct. He is sitting on the Committee. Alright, let's
:17:46. > :17:49.check it now. Lord Baines who started the minimum wage said that
:17:50. > :17:53.had the Government followed his recommendation and his policies, it
:17:54. > :18:05.would now be about ?19. Why? Because of the rising prices and even the
:18:06. > :18:09.Office of National Statistics said the drop to 2% was due to two
:18:10. > :18:15.things. First, the slow rising of food prices. Then they went on to
:18:16. > :18:20.say the trouble is prices are still rising twice the ordinary wage is
:18:21. > :18:25.rising and therefore the crisis is still very strong. As I sit on the
:18:26. > :18:28.Living Wage Commission, we will make recommendations so people can get
:18:29. > :18:33.income on which they can live and the companies that can afford it,
:18:34. > :18:37.they may not at the beginning, but it is important to recognise why
:18:38. > :18:43.should I earn a lot of money and pay the same amount of gas like anybody
:18:44. > :18:47.else, and then those on very low wages struggling and we say to them,
:18:48. > :18:52."Come on, do better than that." They can't. Grant Shapps? What this rise
:18:53. > :18:59.would do would bring it back to where it was pre-recession. That is
:19:00. > :19:02.what the ?7 will do. What I - I listened to the audience - what I
:19:03. > :19:06.think about the Benefits Street programme, it doesn't reflect true
:19:07. > :19:10.realities of Britain, as other panel members have said. You wouldn't know
:19:11. > :19:13.that there are fewer workless households in Britain from ever
:19:14. > :19:25.before watching that programme. You wouldn't know there were more people
:19:26. > :19:32.in work in this country. As Julia was saying, there are many changes
:19:33. > :19:37.that still need to be made. You talked about the universal credit.
:19:38. > :19:42.It hasn't come in because it is in universal chaos. No. You had a vote
:19:43. > :19:46.yesterday. You and Tim, yesterday, there was a vote from the Labour
:19:47. > :19:50.Party on the National Minimum Wage saying it needed to be strengthened,
:19:51. > :19:53.restored and proper enforcement. Two firms have been prosecuted for
:19:54. > :19:58.non-payment of the National Minimum Wage since you two came into power
:19:59. > :20:05.and you voted against that. You insulted both the parties? The idea
:20:06. > :20:09.that... George Osborne is going to raise the National Minimum Wage...
:20:10. > :20:14.The fine is... Let's talk about the work that people are doing, Grant.
:20:15. > :20:18.Low-paid, zero hours, poverty pay, part-time contracts and they aren't
:20:19. > :20:21.able to feed their families and pay their bills at the end of the week.
:20:22. > :20:26.APPLAUSE In which case, you will be pleased
:20:27. > :20:31.to hear we are about to quadruple the fine on firms who don't pay a
:20:32. > :20:35.minimum wage... Means nothing if you are not prosecuting them. Do you
:20:36. > :20:39.know how many prosecutions in the last year of Labour there were for
:20:40. > :20:44.firms not paying the minimum wage? One. You have done two in four
:20:45. > :20:52.years. What we have got to have is HMRC staff... We brought it in. This
:20:53. > :20:57.is getting very tedious. You, there? I think - I would like to continue
:20:58. > :21:01.on what Tim Farron was saying. No-one in the UK doesn't want to be
:21:02. > :21:04.working. No-one wants to live a pointless existence for nothing and
:21:05. > :21:08.the problem is that there are too many people in this country
:21:09. > :21:11.directing their anger and passions towards the most vulnerable people
:21:12. > :21:15.in society rather than directing their passions where it should be on
:21:16. > :21:20.companies like Vodafone and Amazon that have robbed our high street of
:21:21. > :21:26.jobs, robbed money from the public pocket and do nothing for this
:21:27. > :21:32.country but rob us from tax. One last point from you? I personally
:21:33. > :21:36.think that when it comes to Benefits Street that I saw - sorry - the
:21:37. > :21:40.positives that came out of that. There was great community spirit and
:21:41. > :21:44.the fact of the matter is when we have got an aging population, more
:21:45. > :21:50.than half of our population is going to be over 70 and we are almost
:21:51. > :21:53.doubling our dementia cases. Who is going to be making the best dementia
:21:54. > :21:58.communities with that kind of spirit? You thought that was a good
:21:59. > :22:02.community? I did, in its spirit, I definitely thought it was. Benefits
:22:03. > :22:04.Street, or whatever, if you want to join in the debate from home, you
:22:05. > :22:21.can text or Twitter us. You can push the red button and see
:22:22. > :22:26.what other people are texting. This question is from William
:22:27. > :22:30.Kilvington-Shaw. Despite the potential hazards, the economic
:22:31. > :22:37.benefits and job opportunities of fracking are too good to miss? What
:22:38. > :22:40.is your view? We look in America - there was quite a lot of opposition
:22:41. > :22:44.and problems with it. Now, we see a lot of investment in it and they are
:22:45. > :22:48.reaping the rewards with lower gas prices. We just discussed the
:22:49. > :22:52.problems with people finding jobs, so it will create a large number of
:22:53. > :23:01.jobs, so I can't see why it is a bad thing. You are excited by fracking?
:23:02. > :23:04.LAUGHTER Yes. Tim Farron? I am less excited. It is not for some of the
:23:05. > :23:08.reasons that have been put out there. I don't know really the
:23:09. > :23:13.geological consequences, the science is not all that clear. The impact on
:23:14. > :23:19.the water table, the impact on the landscape and all those things. They
:23:20. > :23:24.are interesting points made on both sides. The most serious problem is
:23:25. > :23:28.climate change. What on earth are we doing signing up to another fossil
:23:29. > :23:33.fuel? What do you make of David Cameron's proposal of tax relief and
:23:34. > :23:38.all the rest of it? If a community is going to be blighted by any
:23:39. > :23:42.development, there is a fairness in that there should be some
:23:43. > :23:46.compensation. I wouldn't say what I have said about the securing of
:23:47. > :23:51.shale gas if I didn't think there were obvious other alternatives.
:23:52. > :23:55.This island is surrounded by water because islands tend to be! Lack of
:23:56. > :23:58.use that we make of tidal power. You think of Germany with something like
:23:59. > :24:03.a fifth of the coastline that we have, yet several times more tidal
:24:04. > :24:10.energy than we are making use of here. 95% of the supply chain of the
:24:11. > :24:14.Hydro and tidal energy industry is British, unlike shale gas, unlike
:24:15. > :24:18.nuclear. Not only would you be able to set a future that can protect and
:24:19. > :24:23.mitigate against climate change, you will create hundreds of thousands of
:24:24. > :24:28.British jobs. You are a funny old party, the Liberal Democrats, aren't
:24:29. > :24:32.you? Well spotted! You are President of the Liberal Democrats. One of
:24:33. > :24:36.your senior Ministers in this Government, the Energy Minister, has
:24:37. > :24:44.responsibility for this. He says the exact opposite? We compromise. Where
:24:45. > :24:47.is the compromise? I retain the right to stand up for what I
:24:48. > :24:52.believe. To pull the rug from under his feet? I understand the argument.
:24:53. > :24:57.We have to look for where does the energy come from. The argument in
:24:58. > :25:01.favour of shale gas are about energy security and the speed about being
:25:02. > :25:05.able to get it. I just think there are arguments on both sides. The
:25:06. > :25:09.bottom line is, when we are trying to fight climate change, going for
:25:10. > :25:15.another form of carbon emission is just foolish and short-sighted. OK.
:25:16. > :25:21.Mary Creagh? Gas is an important part of our energy mix. If shale can
:25:22. > :25:26.replace our dwindling North Sea reserves and improve our energy
:25:27. > :25:34.security, we need to look at it seriously. However... Looking at
:25:35. > :25:43.something seriously is... Of course it is serious. "Yes" or "no"? It
:25:44. > :25:48.needs to be regulated and monitored. What that means is... Is? Testing
:25:49. > :25:53.the water supplies before anything happens. Monitoring for seismic
:25:54. > :25:56.activities for 12 months beforehand. Working out what impact this is
:25:57. > :26:00.going to have on the local community and making sure there is a proper
:26:01. > :26:05.Environmental Impact Assessment that is carried out. What we must not
:26:06. > :26:10.have is a sort of feeling that the Government offering bribes to local
:26:11. > :26:14.councils saying you can keep 100% of the business rates. Councils that
:26:15. > :26:26.are making the planning decisions on these fracking applications have to
:26:27. > :26:30.do that in a quasijudicial role. Should communities not benefit from
:26:31. > :26:34.taking on fracking? Communities should benefit. Not through the
:26:35. > :26:38.councils? I don't think it should be done through the business rates.
:26:39. > :26:42.That creates perverse outcomes. I also think - to go back to Tim's
:26:43. > :26:47.point about climate change - gas is half the carbon footprint of oil and
:26:48. > :26:53.coal. If we could reduce our carbon footprint by 50% in one go, most
:26:54. > :26:58.people would be happy. Grant Shapps, it is a bribe? I will come to that
:26:59. > :27:09.in a second. Go to it straight, that is what she said? OK. I don't think
:27:10. > :27:13.it is a bribe. 1% of the revenue and all of the business rates, it does
:27:14. > :27:16.provide incentives for the communities to benefit. If you are
:27:17. > :27:22.going to have inconvenience in your community - fracking is nowhere near
:27:23. > :27:26.as inconvenient as a coal mine for instance - there should still be
:27:27. > :27:31.benefits back. On the wider question that was asked: If the shale is to
:27:32. > :27:36.be ex-plated in this country -- exploited in this country, don't we
:27:37. > :27:40.owe it to the hard-working families in this country to give them that
:27:41. > :27:44.secure energy supply? Of course it does. They are doing it in America.
:27:45. > :27:47.There is no international evidence at all of problems to do with
:27:48. > :27:52.earthquakes or contaminated supplies. We want to make sure we
:27:53. > :27:55.have got the safest possible rules and regulations in place. We will do
:27:56. > :27:59.that. It makes sense for hard-working families to be able to
:28:00. > :28:04.access cheaper energy to heat their homes. Yes. Where is the evidence
:28:05. > :28:08.that it will be cheaper? The Conservative policy was the large
:28:09. > :28:15.uninhabited and desolate areas of the North East that were suitable
:28:16. > :28:21.for it. You can only frack for shale gas where it is. It is all over the
:28:22. > :28:26.country! So it is not Tory policy to follow Lord Howe and deal with -
:28:27. > :28:30.yes, Sir? Tim Farron suggests we should use renewables as much as
:28:31. > :28:35.possible. That is a good idea. You cannot rely on them. If we want to
:28:36. > :28:39.have electricity 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, we have got to have
:28:40. > :28:46.something as a back-up supply. You are in favour of fracking? I am. We
:28:47. > :28:50.have to use gas to make electricity when the renewables are not making
:28:51. > :28:58.enough for us. There is nothing more reliable than the tide. It happens
:28:59. > :29:06.all the time. No, it does not. Twice a day. It is particularly expensive.
:29:07. > :29:12.No, it lasts forever. Does it, with salt? Does it last forever? You have
:29:13. > :29:15.to maintain things. When the shale is gone, the shale is gone. The sea
:29:16. > :29:20.will be there for some time. What do you think, Sir? Unless it is allowed
:29:21. > :29:24.to go ahead, nobody will ever know if it's totally viable. Absolutely.
:29:25. > :29:29.You would like to see experiments with it? I would. The woman in
:29:30. > :29:32.yellow, what do you think? I disagree with the original
:29:33. > :29:36.questioner. We are not America. We haven't got the vast spaces that
:29:37. > :29:40.America has. We are a tiny island and the impact on us would be
:29:41. > :29:45.enormous. I agree with you, Tim Farron, that we should be going for
:29:46. > :29:50.renewables. Apparently, in America, the shale is already beginning to
:29:51. > :29:53.run out. It hasn't led to lower prices because they have been
:29:54. > :30:09.exporting the coal that they continue to mine in order to raise
:30:10. > :30:22.the prices. I disagree with fracking. Lets not follow the
:30:23. > :30:26.example of the French economy. The problem in this country is that we
:30:27. > :30:30.have no say in energy policy. In fact, we do not have an elegy policy
:30:31. > :30:36.at all and we have not for a long time. -- and energy policy. Every
:30:37. > :30:40.government has kicked it into the long grass. The problem I have with
:30:41. > :30:44.those who oppose fracking, is that they seem to be the same people who
:30:45. > :30:50.oppose nuclear energy, coal, gas, oil, people who will not be happy
:30:51. > :30:54.until we are sitting in mud huts surrounded by wind turbines and
:30:55. > :30:59.reading by candlelight. I like heat and light. I do not want the lights
:31:00. > :31:05.to go off. I want factories to be able to stay working. I would like
:31:06. > :31:09.heat and light 24 hours a day. We need new energy resources. It's all
:31:10. > :31:14.very well saying that gas supplies might run out. We have been a gas
:31:15. > :31:19.importer for ten years. We need energy we can rely on that will be
:31:20. > :31:23.secure. Yes, we need it to be saved, but we have tighter regulation in
:31:24. > :31:27.this country than in America. Shale gas is not running out in America.
:31:28. > :31:32.What has happened there is that energy prices have come down. That
:31:33. > :31:35.will not happen here because it is a French company that is doing all the
:31:36. > :31:40.work. I want it to go ahead but I wanted to be a British company. I do
:31:41. > :31:44.not want French shareholders benefiting. I want British people
:31:45. > :31:47.who buy their energy here to be benefiting from it, and I do not
:31:48. > :31:54.know why the government cannot make this happen. Why can't the
:31:55. > :31:57.government make it happen? We need to welcome investment from anybody
:31:58. > :32:02.who wants to invest in this industry. Nobody in Britain does?
:32:03. > :32:11.There is British expertise and investment going into shale. How
:32:12. > :32:23.much is Total putting in? 40% gesture marked here is the expert.
:32:24. > :32:27.You are now. We have lots of oil and gas expertise in this country, so
:32:28. > :32:32.lots of expertise will go into this. Because we are getting into it
:32:33. > :32:35.before France, for example, who have banned it at home and are happy to
:32:36. > :32:40.carry on paying high prices, we will be able to X -- export that
:32:41. > :32:45.expertise in future, in the same way as North Sea oil enabled this
:32:46. > :32:52.country to export that expertise. But rises will not come down. Nobody
:32:53. > :32:56.has predicted prices will come down. There are new ways of generating
:32:57. > :33:03.electricity, including through nuclear. Why don't prices come down?
:33:04. > :33:10.When these things come online, they will come down. They will not. You
:33:11. > :33:16.are speculating. I am quoting reports from select committees.
:33:17. > :33:20.Nobody knows for sure. Nobody is predicting that prices will come
:33:21. > :33:24.down. I am predicting that prices will come down if we can get more
:33:25. > :33:29.and different supplies of energy. The oil will run out and we need to
:33:30. > :33:36.be replacing it with other things. Gas is environmentally much better
:33:37. > :33:41.for the environment. You cannot pipe shale gas out of the US, but you can
:33:42. > :33:44.out of the UK. As long as you can pipe it to Europe, that is what the
:33:45. > :33:51.energy companies will do because that is what they always do. It is
:33:52. > :33:54.extremely annoying when you hear politicians such as Mary Creagh talk
:33:55. > :33:58.about looking at things very seriously. We are not looking to
:33:59. > :34:03.reinvent the wheel. The Japanese and Americans have led the way in
:34:04. > :34:07.fracking, so much so that America will be entirely producing their own
:34:08. > :34:12.energy within half a generation. We should be embracing the comments
:34:13. > :34:18.that were slightly misspoken by the Tory peer, who said we should be
:34:19. > :34:21.fracking in the north-east. We should be looking at Northumberland,
:34:22. > :34:26.County Durham, and rebuilding the industry in the area. This is a
:34:27. > :34:31.novel industrial process. If you want communities to come with you,
:34:32. > :34:36.it is a novel process and we do not have the regulatory regimes set up
:34:37. > :34:39.and the processors are not there. We need to ensure the Environment
:34:40. > :34:43.Agency is able to issue the permits. That is how you get communities to
:34:44. > :34:52.have confidence. Let's not make those points again. John Sentamu. On
:34:53. > :34:56.this question, I am ambivalent, simply because I am not so sure that
:34:57. > :35:00.we have secured the whole question of the environment, that there will
:35:01. > :35:05.be security that can be sustained, proper controls. I am also not
:35:06. > :35:08.persuaded about prices. Remember when everything was privatised in
:35:09. > :35:14.times of oil, and gas and electricity? We were told it would
:35:15. > :35:16.bring down prices and it is gas companies and oil companies that
:35:17. > :35:22.have been charging us far, far too much. The same thing will happen
:35:23. > :35:27.here unless we know that the end result will lead to lower prices.
:35:28. > :35:30.The fact that the chairman of the Conservative Party cannot commit
:35:31. > :35:35.himself to this. I do not want to live in a mud hut, by the way. I
:35:36. > :35:48.left that back in Uganda when I left it. The people who really are asking
:35:49. > :35:52.questions, they must be answered. And the government has to come up
:35:53. > :35:57.with very clear answers why it must be done, that we will be secure in
:35:58. > :36:00.terms of geology. Remember Blackpool, there was a difficulty
:36:01. > :36:05.there when they first started to experiment? I am not sure the
:36:06. > :36:09.questions have gone away. I wish them well but I remain slightly
:36:10. > :36:14.sceptical. Because I do not want to live in a mud hut, I do not know why
:36:15. > :36:17.the government, for example, does not work on nuclear fusion, because
:36:18. > :36:27.that would be a much cleaner power to use. Why not? I actually think
:36:28. > :36:33.again we are taking our eye off the ball here. One of the big issues we
:36:34. > :36:36.have in the north-east is fuel poverty. People are finding it very
:36:37. > :36:41.hard to heat their homes and afford to eat as well. Actually, I think we
:36:42. > :36:48.are missing a trick, because there is a huge amount of opportunity to
:36:49. > :36:50.invest in our existing housing, to save energy and prices through
:36:51. > :36:55.investment in the housing structure, and give people that
:36:56. > :37:02.opportunity to actually do more with their own income. That is an area we
:37:03. > :37:06.need to focus more on. Insolation rather than fracking? Insulation,
:37:07. > :37:10.efficient boilers, easy measures without the environmental risks.
:37:11. > :37:15.Steps have taken to encourage that and they do not seem to have helped.
:37:16. > :37:22.Lee they need further investment and support and that is what I am
:37:23. > :37:25.looking to see from the government. In relation to the north-east,
:37:26. > :37:29.fracking would be a great opportunity for the area. Many
:37:30. > :37:33.people when they think of the north-east think about the loss of
:37:34. > :37:37.industry. I think David Cameron's suggestion of 1% revenue as soon as
:37:38. > :37:45.gas starts coming out would be beneficial to many communities in
:37:46. > :37:50.this area. The land grab that is going on,
:37:51. > :37:53.historic land owners are clamouring to establish boundaries, so what is
:37:54. > :37:56.coming back to the communities might not be as much as the government
:37:57. > :38:11.says. They will claim their share first. Just one comment. A couple of
:38:12. > :38:15.the audience have mentioned the industrial benefits. The Institute
:38:16. > :38:19.of directors reckon 74,000 jobs could eventually be created through
:38:20. > :38:23.the fracking industry. This gives a chance to help to end fuel poverty
:38:24. > :38:31.and bring down fuel prices. Why on earth would we not, as a country,
:38:32. > :38:34.want to go ahead and do this? I don't know much about the
:38:35. > :38:38.environmental arguments for war against fracking, but what I do
:38:39. > :38:41.think is that the energy companies and utility companies have not
:38:42. > :38:46.exactly proved themselves to be trustworthy, or to put consumers
:38:47. > :38:57.first, so I don't see why we should trust them on this issue either.
:38:58. > :39:00.Alix Bell, let's go to you. In an area of high unemployment, what
:39:01. > :39:08.impact will mass immigration have on the north-east? Alix Bell, what is
:39:09. > :39:12.your view of that? Overall, it would be a negative impact. There is lots
:39:13. > :39:17.of unemployment and it would create higher competition for jobs. It
:39:18. > :39:21.would also put further strain on public services which are already
:39:22. > :39:29.under pressure. You are worried about it. Yes. Obviously, I work for
:39:30. > :39:32.a radio station in London, where there has been a massive impact of
:39:33. > :39:39.immigration, and around the south-east as well. I am not as
:39:40. > :39:42.familiar with the situation up here. We have a lot of reports from
:39:43. > :39:47.politicians saying about the economic cost, the overall cost.
:39:48. > :39:51.There was a report from the office of budget responsible this week
:39:52. > :39:55.saying there is a small net benefit to Treasury coffers of immigration.
:39:56. > :39:58.We keep hearing about the ratio of people who claim tax and claim
:39:59. > :40:03.benefits compared to people who come from abroad. I think that ignores
:40:04. > :40:06.the real issue. The cost of immigration is to individual
:40:07. > :40:11.people, local families and communities. It is the competition
:40:12. > :40:16.for jobs, housing, competition certainly in London for school
:40:17. > :40:20.places, for maternity services, access to your GP and Accident
:40:21. > :40:23.Emergency. I have nothing but admiration and respect for someone
:40:24. > :40:26.who leave their homeland, their family and goes to make a new life
:40:27. > :40:30.and tries to better themselves and their family. They deserve
:40:31. > :40:35.absolutely nothing but respect and admiration. But there is
:40:36. > :40:38.nevertheless an effect on people who are already living here,
:40:39. > :40:42.particularly on people who are often the children of previous immigrant
:40:43. > :40:45.families, because they tend to be at the bottom of the economic and
:40:46. > :40:50.social pile. Those are the people they are competing with the jobs. My
:40:51. > :40:54.problem is that we have a political and media class, of which I am one,
:40:55. > :40:58.where immigration on a mass scale as has happened in the last 14 years
:40:59. > :41:06.means that we get nannies, gardeners, and I suppose the bankers
:41:07. > :41:08.get help walkers, we have Eastern European immigrants, immigrants from
:41:09. > :41:13.across the world who provide services. Are you saying you are
:41:14. > :41:20.influenced by having someone to walk your dog? I do not have a dog. I
:41:21. > :41:27.have a guinea pig. I am saying that the political and media class who
:41:28. > :41:34.control the debate... RU Sirius? Let me finish. Are you saying that
:41:35. > :41:38.politicians and the media, because they get cheap servants from
:41:39. > :41:41.immigration... Their experience of immigration is that they get a
:41:42. > :41:45.lovely nanny, not their children going to a school where half the
:41:46. > :41:49.children do not speak English, not the entire neighbourhood changing
:41:50. > :41:53.irrevocably over a matter of years. It is not about racism or
:41:54. > :41:57.xenophobia, not about fear or hatred, it is about the ability of
:41:58. > :42:02.any country, regardless of colour or cult, the ability to absorb large
:42:03. > :42:07.numbers of people who can assimilate and join those communities and be
:42:08. > :42:12.part of those communities. What should the policy be? I am largely
:42:13. > :42:17.in favour of the UKIP side of the policy, in terms of having a stall
:42:18. > :42:22.on mass immigration in this country. The Tory cap does not appear to be
:42:23. > :42:31.working. And having a realistic look at how many people can live on a
:42:32. > :42:42.very small island. The woman in spectacles. I believe that most
:42:43. > :42:45.people in this country would welcome immigrants if they come and are able
:42:46. > :42:52.to support themselves and have a job to come to. Most people in this
:42:53. > :42:56.country are against immigrants when they come and in three months time
:42:57. > :43:04.they can claim benefits, they can ask for a council house. I don't
:43:05. > :43:07.think that is right. We are a very small island. We have a large
:43:08. > :43:13.population and it is growing all the time. We cannot support all these
:43:14. > :43:17.people coming. If it was reversed, and we could go to their countries
:43:18. > :43:27.and claim the same, which I don't think we can, then it would be a
:43:28. > :43:30.fair and level playing field. Immigration is a massive issue, and
:43:31. > :43:35.a big issue in my constituency of Wakefield. The government has a
:43:36. > :43:39.target on net migration which it is not meeting. Net migration is up
:43:40. > :43:44.cost the target depends on the number of Brits who go abroad to
:43:45. > :43:50.live and work. -- because the target. My parents came here to live
:43:51. > :43:55.and work in the 60s. Most people who move abroad to work wants to build a
:43:56. > :43:59.better life for themselves and their family. And they contribute to the
:44:00. > :44:05.tax revenue, and they build a home and a life for themselves. The point
:44:06. > :44:11.about the question was, in an area of high unemployment, is it
:44:12. > :44:15.desirable? Migrants tend not to move to areas of high unemployment to
:44:16. > :44:19.find work, which is why we see the population growing in London and the
:44:20. > :44:23.south-east. Some of the very big pressures on schools, public
:44:24. > :44:28.services and housing. That is not to say those pressures do not exist in
:44:29. > :44:31.my constituency in Wakefield. We have a very multicultural education
:44:32. > :44:35.system and that has changed over the last 10-year is. But we are seeing
:44:36. > :44:39.the government failing to take action on illegal migration, failing
:44:40. > :44:43.to tackle the exploitation of vulnerable workers, failing to
:44:44. > :44:46.tackle the overcrowded housing in which they are living, and failing
:44:47. > :44:51.to deport those who should not be here and who are here illegally.
:44:52. > :45:00.My personal Experience is it impacts on our public services. I thought I
:45:01. > :45:05.should learn Polish because it was - the amount of time that we had to
:45:06. > :45:12.spend getting an interpreter in so we were able to communicate and
:45:13. > :45:16.effectively treat patients and interestingly, on the subject of
:45:17. > :45:21.whether people, when we were talking about benefits, the same cohort
:45:22. > :45:25.misused the service. People who haven't been in the country for a
:45:26. > :45:29.long time haven't registered with GPs, use services inappropriately,
:45:30. > :45:31.it means we can't operate efficiently as an Accident
:45:32. > :45:42.Emergency department. There are a lot of people who use
:45:43. > :45:46.A inappropriately. It is not helpful to say - people find it very
:45:47. > :45:50.difficult to get access to their GPs. We have seen the unfurling of
:45:51. > :45:54.the Government's reorganisation will haves Let's come back to the point.
:45:55. > :46:01.We have had this week the fact that the amount of locums going up...
:46:02. > :46:06.Let's not go into the NHS. Julia said, Grant Shapps, that she was in
:46:07. > :46:09.favour of UKIP's policy on this. Nigel Farage said he would rather
:46:10. > :46:15.give up growth than have more immigration. Do you agree with that?
:46:16. > :46:25.No, I don't. Is that a fair choice? It's not. Is it a false dichotomy? I
:46:26. > :46:30.believe over the decades and the centuries immigration has enriched
:46:31. > :46:34.this country. It has helped Britain develop the economy it's got today.
:46:35. > :46:38.The problem is that when the system is completely unchecked and nobody
:46:39. > :46:42.is paying attention to the system, the pressure on the Health Service
:46:43. > :46:46.that you work in, or on housing, the area that I used to look after, or
:46:47. > :46:50.on benefits, gets out of control. Frankly, to hear a Labour politician
:46:51. > :46:53.on this panel attack this Government, which has brought net
:46:54. > :46:59.immigration down by nearly a third, when they were responsible for 2.3
:47:00. > :47:03.million more people coming into this country under a completely broken
:47:04. > :47:07.system, that Lord Mandelson has written that in 2004 as a Labour
:47:08. > :47:11.Government, they were not only welcoming people into this country,
:47:12. > :47:15.but sending out search parties for people to be savaged by Labour
:47:16. > :47:20.politician on record on immigration, it is completely ludicrous. We are
:47:21. > :47:24.getting... The effect on a place with high unemployment. This part of
:47:25. > :47:28.Britain has unemployment higher than the rest of the United Kingdom. Is
:47:29. > :47:32.it going to be adversely affected? As I said, in answer to the
:47:33. > :47:36.question, the problem is when services get squeezed and that is
:47:37. > :47:40.why we have taken action, for example, to make sure some of those
:47:41. > :47:45.false colleges have been closed down, that we ensure that people
:47:46. > :47:51.can't come here and bring other family members here from outside of
:47:52. > :47:57.the EU and that even with the new EU immigration, they don't get
:47:58. > :48:02.automatic access... You don't want to stop immigration dead? We are in
:48:03. > :48:08.Europe. We must have a referendum on Europe and the only way we can do...
:48:09. > :48:12.Any time you want! We are ready. Are you going to vote out of Europe? We
:48:13. > :48:16.won't have that referendum. You want have it? Until it passes through
:48:17. > :48:22.Parliament. I have been voting for that Bill. The Lib Dems failed to
:48:23. > :48:28.vote for that... Will you vote for leaving Europe or not? He won't
:48:29. > :48:34.answer my question! I will answer it. Will you vote "yes" or "no"? I
:48:35. > :48:38.can't vote for it until there's a referendum. As soon as that
:48:39. > :48:42.referendum comes, which we can all have by 2017, with a Conservative
:48:43. > :48:46.Government elected next time round, I will vote depending on how the
:48:47. > :48:54.negotiation has gone to get powers back to Britain. Alright. Archbishop
:48:55. > :48:59.John Sentamu? In an area of mass unemployment, Alix Bell, I think
:49:00. > :49:04.that if more people came into that area, sometimes willing to take jobs
:49:05. > :49:08.which others won't want to take, that would create much better
:49:09. > :49:13.pressure. We have to be honest about it. It would create great pressure
:49:14. > :49:17.on those already unemployed and trying to look for work. All I would
:49:18. > :49:22.say, this particular region by the way, has got a much balanced surplus
:49:23. > :49:27.of trade than any other region in the rest of the country. Nissan cars
:49:28. > :49:32.and all they have been doing, amazing what they have done. That
:49:33. > :49:42.doesn't take away, they have to tackle youth unemployment. It seems
:49:43. > :49:44.to me that should not be just purely the region that looks after it, the
:49:45. > :49:49.Government has to have a responsibility for it as well.
:49:50. > :49:55.Finally, I would say, I'm answering that question because myself I've
:49:56. > :50:01.got an interest, I'm an immigrant, too. I'm glad nobody shut the door
:50:02. > :50:09.on me. Did you seek asylum? We are, too. You were an asylum seeker, not
:50:10. > :50:20.an economic - a religious immigrant as it turned out. No, Uganda, I had
:50:21. > :50:23.taken the decision of law, which he didn't appreciate. My wife and I had
:50:24. > :50:28.to get out. I'm very grateful for the support. Most people were coming
:50:29. > :50:31.here - let's be very careful - the Polish who are willing to come and
:50:32. > :50:37.work, some of them were willing to be paid very, very low wages. That
:50:38. > :50:41.is why, it seems to me, that this minimum wage question has to be
:50:42. > :50:45.answered. They all saw - it displaced a lot of people. It is a
:50:46. > :50:53.small island. It cannot constantly take in everybody. Please could we
:50:54. > :50:58.take the kind of, what I call it, ideology and be more civil? Could we
:50:59. > :50:59.take out the blame culture and be more interested about solutions?
:51:00. > :51:18.Thank you. Is Tim Farron? I want to, without
:51:19. > :51:21.hesitation, say immigration is a blessing and not a curse. More
:51:22. > :51:25.politicians need to say that. When you think about what immigration and
:51:26. > :51:29.the diversity of our communities has done for this country over the
:51:30. > :51:34.years, it has been a net benefit. Look at the financial side of it,
:51:35. > :51:38.the OECD estimates immigration is worth ?7 billion to the British
:51:39. > :51:44.economy. It is not one-way street. 1. Million British people are living
:51:45. > :51:47.elsewhere in the EU. 10,000 are on the dole in Germany at the moment.
:51:48. > :51:51.The idea that this is a country that is allowing itself to be sponged off
:51:52. > :51:54.is nonsense. This is a country that has always been proud of being
:51:55. > :52:03.inclusive and open and that is how I want it to remain. OK. We have only
:52:04. > :52:12.got a few minutes left. I will take a question from Dorothy Puchala. Is
:52:13. > :52:16.Francois Hollande's affair a public matter? Or should he be allowed to
:52:17. > :52:20.conduct his private life in any way he chooses? Francois Hollande's
:52:21. > :52:25.affair a public matter? Who would like to answer this one? Me. Go for
:52:26. > :52:29.it. What consenting adults do between themselves after work is a
:52:30. > :52:33.matter for them and them alone. What's been interesting is the way
:52:34. > :52:38.that the French press and the French public don't really seem to care a
:52:39. > :52:41.jot and have shrugged their shoulders and moved on. He is the
:52:42. > :52:49.President. Where does he get the time? Alright. You in the front
:52:50. > :52:53.here? One of the things I think is that somebody who cheats on their
:52:54. > :52:59.partner or wife, or something, if they will cheat in one way, they
:53:00. > :53:05.will cheat in another way. Right. Can I come back? Yes? I absolutely
:53:06. > :53:17.do agree with that. I don't think it excludes someone from high office.
:53:18. > :53:23.He believes it's a "construction" I believe. Francois Hollande is lucky
:53:24. > :53:27.that I'm not the First Lady of France, he would be the one in
:53:28. > :53:31.hospital! I have admiration for a man who looks like he is the middle
:53:32. > :53:36.manager in a small branch of ASDA that has done so well with the
:53:37. > :53:44.ladies. For many decades, the French haven't taken an interest. It is
:53:45. > :53:52.down to what he is is doing to the French economy! The man there?
:53:53. > :53:56.Another example of personal integrity seems unimportant in the
:53:57. > :54:02.world of politics. I thought leaders were supposed to lead by example?
:54:03. > :54:05.Tim Farron? You got your own local difficulty over Lord Rennard,
:54:06. > :54:16.haven't you? You are trying to get him to say sorry for inappropriate
:54:17. > :54:23.behaviour - he won't - and you won't do anything? On the Rennard issue,
:54:24. > :54:27.I'm not here to defend the Liberal Democrats. Over a decade, this issue
:54:28. > :54:30.has been allowed to fester. What has happened this week is not the source
:54:31. > :54:40.of the problem. If you are in an organisation - let this be a lesson
:54:41. > :54:44.for any party - if you allow issues to fester like that, you end up with
:54:45. > :54:49.the appalling situation we found ourselves in. He denies wrongdoing?
:54:50. > :54:54.He is entitled to do so. He makes it very clear... You didn't give him
:54:55. > :54:59.the QC's report? In the statement that he's made, that Chris Rennard
:55:00. > :55:03.has seen, he made it clear that he must apologise. Alright. That is an
:55:04. > :55:14.unsatisfactory situation. What was it you said? We have forgotten it
:55:15. > :55:19.now. It was another example of how personal integrity seems unimportant
:55:20. > :55:26.in the world of politics? People are entitled to a private life. My heart
:55:27. > :55:30.goes out to Valerie Trierweiler, and it is not a laughing matter that she
:55:31. > :55:34.was hospitalised as a consequence of this. My concern for Hollande's
:55:35. > :55:38.privacy stretches as far as her in this respect. You mentioned earlier
:55:39. > :55:42.on, the reality is the character of a politician, a leader, anybody, is
:55:43. > :55:46.demonstrated not just in what they do in the public's sphere, but what
:55:47. > :55:51.they do in their private lives. If you cheat on people close to you,
:55:52. > :55:56.you might cheat on others in another way. Grant Shapps, do you agree,
:55:57. > :56:00.that if you commit adultly, you will commit adultery on the economy, on
:56:01. > :56:04.the voter, on industry? I don't quite see it that way. I'm probably
:56:05. > :56:09.closer to the view that what he does with his private life is his
:56:10. > :56:15.business. I will say this: When he was over here in France's fifth
:56:16. > :56:21.biggest city, London, before his election, I do remember Ed Miliband
:56:22. > :56:25.saying that he wanted to follow in Hollande's footsteps. I don't think
:56:26. > :56:29.he meant in this regard. The bit that I should think worries the
:56:30. > :56:33.French people right now and will worry Brits is that unemployment in
:56:34. > :56:37.France is 11%, there are more companies going bust in France than
:56:38. > :56:41.ever before. The country is heading back into recession. His policies
:56:42. > :56:44.have been a disaster and they have hurt the poorest people in society
:56:45. > :56:48.the most. It is a warning sign for us. It is something we must never
:56:49. > :56:53.make allow to happen in this country. Archbishop John Sentamu,
:56:54. > :57:02.last word to you. Is it a public matter what Francois Hollande does
:57:03. > :57:05.with his private life? It is genuinely a private matter, that is
:57:06. > :57:11.the French way of looking at life. The problem is this. They have been
:57:12. > :57:14.asking do we have a First Lady. They are beginning to realise it has
:57:15. > :57:21.limits. You can't go all the way. All I would say, once you are in
:57:22. > :57:25.public life, the private can't easily be separated. As my mother
:57:26. > :57:29.said, "Never point a finger at anybody because when you do, if the
:57:30. > :57:35.others are pointing at you, I'm a sinner who is needing the grace of
:57:36. > :57:38.God." You can't separate public from private. That seems to me a cop out.
:57:39. > :57:51.OK. Thank you very much. That's our hour up. Next week we
:57:52. > :57:55.will be in Dundee and the week after that we will be in Norwich. If you
:57:56. > :58:00.would like to come to Dundee or to Norwich to argue with our panel,
:58:01. > :58:03.take part, ask them questions, do the usual thing. You can apply to
:58:04. > :58:04.the website - www.bbc.co.uk/questiontime. You can
:58:05. > :58:16.call the number there: If you are listening to Radio Five
:58:17. > :58:22.Live, the debate goes on on Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to all my
:58:23. > :58:27.panelists. And to all of you who came to take part in the programme.
:58:28. > :58:29.Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.