23/01/2014

0:00:02 > 0:00:06Tonight, we're in Dundee, and welcome to Question Time.

0:00:13 > 0:00:15Good evening to you at home, welcome to our audience here,

0:00:15 > 0:00:18who are going to be asking the questions and arguing with our panel,

0:00:18 > 0:00:20who don't know what those questions will be.

0:00:20 > 0:00:23They are the Finance Secretary in the Scottish Government -

0:00:23 > 0:00:25John Swinney,

0:00:25 > 0:00:30Scottish Labour Shadow Education Secretary - Kezia Dugdale,

0:00:30 > 0:00:33the leader of the Scottish Conservatives - Ruth Davidson,

0:00:33 > 0:00:36and the former Deputy Leader of the SNP,

0:00:36 > 0:00:39who supports independence but is a critic of the way the campaign

0:00:39 > 0:00:42is being fought - Jim Sillars.

0:00:53 > 0:00:56And, as you'll have noticed, our panel is four tonight,

0:00:56 > 0:00:59not our usual five, for a very straightforward reason -

0:00:59 > 0:01:01we wanted to get a panel that was equally balanced

0:01:01 > 0:01:03on the issue of independence.

0:01:03 > 0:01:05Of course, five would not allow us to do that.

0:01:05 > 0:01:08But independence is not the only thing, by any means, that we're

0:01:08 > 0:01:09going to talk about tonight.

0:01:09 > 0:01:12Anyway, let's take our first question.

0:01:12 > 0:01:14Daniel Herron has it. Daniel Herron, please.

0:01:14 > 0:01:19Would Scotland be better or worse off in an independent Scotland?

0:01:19 > 0:01:22Would Scotland be better or worse off as an independent Scotland?

0:01:22 > 0:01:23Ruth Davidson.

0:01:23 > 0:01:26Well, I think we've had certainly an answer from people

0:01:26 > 0:01:29across Scotland this week with the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey.

0:01:29 > 0:01:33Now, John Swinney's government has been in power for seven years

0:01:33 > 0:01:36here in Holyrood, and for seven years they've been telling us

0:01:36 > 0:01:38everything will be better in an independent Scotland,

0:01:38 > 0:01:41the country will be richer, everybody in it will be richer.

0:01:41 > 0:01:44They've said that you can't flourish as part of the United Kingdom,

0:01:44 > 0:01:49and we've seen with the statistics this week from people's attitudes

0:01:49 > 0:01:51that only 9% of people in Scotland - fewer than one in ten -

0:01:51 > 0:01:54think they'd be better off in an independent Scotland.

0:01:54 > 0:01:56And also, we've seen this week...

0:01:56 > 0:01:58- Are they right, is the question, surely?- I think...

0:01:58 > 0:02:01You're asked your opinion, not what the public opinion polls show.

0:02:01 > 0:02:04Sure. Well, I think if you look at the growth rates in Scotland,

0:02:04 > 0:02:08if you look at the positive indicators that we've had

0:02:08 > 0:02:10just this week in terms of unemployment -

0:02:10 > 0:02:12that's dropped to 6.4%, which is great news -

0:02:12 > 0:02:15if you look at the manufacturing output in Scotland, you're seeing

0:02:15 > 0:02:17that we're coming out of a tough recession.

0:02:17 > 0:02:20And one of the things that has been very good for us,

0:02:20 > 0:02:22I feel, particularly when we were in the difficulties with

0:02:22 > 0:02:25the Scottish banks, is that we had a strong economy behind us.

0:02:25 > 0:02:29When you look at the fact that we export twice as much

0:02:29 > 0:02:32to the rest of the UK as we do to the rest of the world...

0:02:32 > 0:02:35So, you add all your Americas, your European Unions, your Indias,

0:02:35 > 0:02:37your Chinas all together,

0:02:37 > 0:02:40we sell more to England, Wales and Northern Ireland

0:02:40 > 0:02:43than we do to all of those put together.

0:02:43 > 0:02:45You know, we see, every day,

0:02:45 > 0:02:48the benefits from being in the United Kingdom.

0:02:48 > 0:02:50John Swinney.

0:02:50 > 0:02:52I think Scotland will be better off as an independent country.

0:02:52 > 0:02:55The reason why I think that is twofold.

0:02:55 > 0:03:00Firstly, I think the decisions that affect the people of Scotland

0:03:00 > 0:03:01are best taken here in Scotland

0:03:01 > 0:03:03by people who care most about the future

0:03:03 > 0:03:05of our country, and that's the people who choose to live

0:03:05 > 0:03:08and to work here and to build the future, their future,

0:03:08 > 0:03:11and our country's future together here.

0:03:11 > 0:03:14The second reason is because, if we look at the economic progress

0:03:14 > 0:03:18that we've made in Scotland since we got the Scottish Parliament,

0:03:18 > 0:03:21and got some limited control over these issues here in Scotland,

0:03:21 > 0:03:23the Scottish economy has got stronger.

0:03:23 > 0:03:25We're in a position, as Ruth quite rightly says,

0:03:25 > 0:03:28where we've got progress on employment,

0:03:28 > 0:03:31we've got lower unemployment than the rest of the UK,

0:03:31 > 0:03:33higher employment than the rest of the UK...

0:03:33 > 0:03:36That's because we've been able to exercise different choices

0:03:36 > 0:03:39on a limited basis within the economy

0:03:39 > 0:03:42to boost the performance of the Scottish economy.

0:03:42 > 0:03:43So, I deduce from that,

0:03:43 > 0:03:46if we can use the powers of devolution to make Scotland

0:03:46 > 0:03:49a stronger economy, then the powers of independence will give us

0:03:49 > 0:03:52a much greater opportunity to do that even further.

0:03:52 > 0:03:53OK.

0:03:58 > 0:04:00Ruth mentioned this opinion survey,

0:04:00 > 0:04:05social attitudes survey this week, which suggested there's only £500 in

0:04:05 > 0:04:08the issue for the people, the voters of Scotland.

0:04:08 > 0:04:10If they're £500 better off independent,

0:04:10 > 0:04:12they'll vote independent.

0:04:12 > 0:04:14If they're £500 worse off, they won't.

0:04:14 > 0:04:16- Do you agree with that? - I don't agree with that, no.

0:04:16 > 0:04:19As an assessment? As a judgment of public opinion, I mean?

0:04:19 > 0:04:22Well, obviously, if the survey says that's what people said,

0:04:22 > 0:04:24that's what people said to the survey.

0:04:24 > 0:04:26But I think the judgment is actually a deeper judgment.

0:04:26 > 0:04:30I think people will tend to form their opinion based on what

0:04:30 > 0:04:33they think the economic prospects will be for Scotland

0:04:33 > 0:04:35as an independent country,

0:04:35 > 0:04:38but that will be balanced against what they think the economic

0:04:38 > 0:04:41prospects of Scotland will be by remaining in the United Kingdom.

0:04:41 > 0:04:44And the economic prospects of remaining part of the United Kingdom,

0:04:44 > 0:04:47for me, are very, very poor for people in Scotland,

0:04:47 > 0:04:49and that's why I think they'll vote yes in September.

0:04:49 > 0:04:51Kirsty, I'll come to you...

0:04:51 > 0:04:53APPLAUSE

0:04:53 > 0:04:55I'd just like to go to the questioner, if I can.

0:04:55 > 0:04:56Daniel, what do you think?

0:04:56 > 0:05:01Well, it was only because of that £500 if they voted yes...

0:05:01 > 0:05:06And the no campaign saying, "You'll be £500 worse off."

0:05:06 > 0:05:09Do you think... Is that the way you'd make your mind up?

0:05:09 > 0:05:11Well, where do you get this £500 from?

0:05:11 > 0:05:12Where do you get the £500 from?

0:05:12 > 0:05:14Yeah, do you just pluck that figure out the air?

0:05:14 > 0:05:17I think the questioners - the people who wrote the survey -

0:05:17 > 0:05:20did just pluck it out the air, because that hasn't been a figure

0:05:20 > 0:05:23that either John or myself or anyone has particularly banded about...

0:05:23 > 0:05:24Is slightly like somebody standing

0:05:24 > 0:05:27at the end of the pier and saying, "Here's £500, vote...",

0:05:27 > 0:05:29you know, "..I'll take it away if you don't."

0:05:29 > 0:05:31Yeah, but there could be two sides of that.

0:05:31 > 0:05:35There could be someone SNP saying, "We'll give you £500 to vote," and

0:05:35 > 0:05:38there could be the other one standing at the other side saying,

0:05:38 > 0:05:40"We'll give you..."

0:05:40 > 0:05:43But I think the argument, Daniel, is about the extent to which

0:05:43 > 0:05:45people see where their economic future lies,

0:05:45 > 0:05:49- and I think if people look... - It has nothing to do with £500, then.

0:05:49 > 0:05:53- I don't think it hinges on £500. - But if it's not £500...

0:05:53 > 0:05:55It's whether people think

0:05:55 > 0:05:58- their long-term economic future is more secure.- But if it's not £500,

0:05:58 > 0:06:02would it be £1,000? £2,000 would switch it? Or is money irrelevant?

0:06:02 > 0:06:05- What figure do you put on it, then? - Sorry? Say that again.

0:06:05 > 0:06:06What figure do you put on it?

0:06:06 > 0:06:10There is no figure. You have to make your own mind up.

0:06:10 > 0:06:13OK. You, sir. Yes, with the moustache.

0:06:13 > 0:06:17The negativity we're getting from the Better Together campaign against

0:06:17 > 0:06:20the "streets are paved with gold" from the Scottish National Party

0:06:20 > 0:06:22I think is a disgrace for the Scottish people,

0:06:22 > 0:06:24that we can't see a proper debate

0:06:24 > 0:06:26as to what would actually be better for Scotland.

0:06:26 > 0:06:28Can we not do away with the rhetoric

0:06:28 > 0:06:31and start talking about what is going to be better for Scotland?

0:06:31 > 0:06:33And what do you mean by that?

0:06:33 > 0:06:34APPLAUSE

0:06:35 > 0:06:39What are you getting at, what kind of things do you want talked about?

0:06:39 > 0:06:42We really want to hear from both sides of the argument

0:06:42 > 0:06:43what the pros and cons are.

0:06:43 > 0:06:46At the minute, the Better Together campaign is giving us

0:06:46 > 0:06:48a lot of scaremongering, which is bad,

0:06:48 > 0:06:51it's just not good for the debate, and the SNP, frankly, are saying,

0:06:51 > 0:06:54"Well, you'll be better off here or better off there."

0:06:54 > 0:06:57We need an honest debate, and time is running out.

0:06:57 > 0:06:58OK. Kezia.

0:06:58 > 0:07:00APPLAUSE

0:07:00 > 0:07:02You know, that guy's point is absolutely right,

0:07:02 > 0:07:05and I hear people around the country saying what they want is facts,

0:07:05 > 0:07:07they want to understand what the issues are

0:07:07 > 0:07:08and come to their own conclusions,

0:07:08 > 0:07:11in many ways without party politics driving it.

0:07:11 > 0:07:13So don't listen to the SNP position or the Labour position,

0:07:13 > 0:07:16look at what the IFS are saying, who are saying that

0:07:16 > 0:07:19the gap between what we spend and what we raise in tax

0:07:19 > 0:07:22would be twice what it would be in the United Kingdom

0:07:22 > 0:07:25if we were independent. I think that's some pretty strong evidence.

0:07:25 > 0:07:27In real terms, what does that mean? It's £1,000.

0:07:27 > 0:07:30To the guy over there who was talking about 500 quid,

0:07:30 > 0:07:33we would have to increase tax by £1,000 per person,

0:07:33 > 0:07:35or reduce public spending to that same effect.

0:07:35 > 0:07:38Now, you might choose that. You might believe to your core,

0:07:38 > 0:07:41like John and Jim do, that nationalism is worth whatever price,

0:07:41 > 0:07:43but you might also look to your own pocket,

0:07:43 > 0:07:45think about your kids' future

0:07:45 > 0:07:48- and decide that we're stronger as part of the United Kingdom.- OK.

0:07:48 > 0:07:49APPLAUSE

0:07:51 > 0:07:53Yes, the lady with the blonde hair.

0:07:53 > 0:07:55In the White Paper, it states that

0:07:55 > 0:07:59English students would continue to pay tuition fees

0:07:59 > 0:08:01if Scotland went independent.

0:08:01 > 0:08:05However, recently we found out this is actually against EU law.

0:08:05 > 0:08:09I was wondering how they think they can go about this.

0:08:09 > 0:08:13That's not quite the question, not quite a central issue, is it?

0:08:13 > 0:08:16- For...- I mean, it is AN issue whether English students...

0:08:16 > 0:08:19English students, Northern Ireland students...

0:08:19 > 0:08:21It comes back to what this gentleman was saying,

0:08:21 > 0:08:23about having facts rather than having assertions.

0:08:23 > 0:08:27You know, sometimes, I absolutely take the gentleman's point

0:08:27 > 0:08:28that sometimes it does seem as if

0:08:28 > 0:08:31people on the Better Together side of the argument are saying,

0:08:31 > 0:08:34"Hold on, hang on a minute, try and explain yourself here."

0:08:34 > 0:08:37But when you have people entering the debate saying, "We have legal advice

0:08:37 > 0:08:40"and we'd waltz into the EU and there would be no question about it,"

0:08:40 > 0:08:42and you challenge them on it and they say,

0:08:42 > 0:08:47"Actually, after spending £20,000 of taxpayers' money to fight a case,

0:08:47 > 0:08:50"we just have to admit we never had the legal advice in the first place."

0:08:50 > 0:08:53When they say, of course students would be able to have

0:08:53 > 0:08:56the organisation we have now, when all the European law says no,

0:08:56 > 0:09:00then you have to challenge those assertions, because you're right,

0:09:00 > 0:09:03people deserve to not just have "this is the vision and the dream".

0:09:03 > 0:09:06They need to show that there's evidence behind that too.

0:09:06 > 0:09:08I think both of these points are true.

0:09:08 > 0:09:10APPLAUSE

0:09:10 > 0:09:13Jim, I said at the beginning you were a former member of the SNP

0:09:13 > 0:09:16and I described you as being in favour of a yes vote

0:09:16 > 0:09:20but critical of the way the campaign is being put forward by the SNP.

0:09:20 > 0:09:23Is that right? Is that a fair description?

0:09:23 > 0:09:25Yeah, well, I am in the SNP in a sense,

0:09:25 > 0:09:28not OF it at the present time.

0:09:28 > 0:09:31This has nothing to do with £500 either way.

0:09:31 > 0:09:33This is a ridiculous argument.

0:09:33 > 0:09:39This is about the question of whether Scotland remains part

0:09:39 > 0:09:45of a state which is in its final stages of imperial decline.

0:09:45 > 0:09:47And all my life...

0:09:47 > 0:09:49APPLAUSE

0:09:52 > 0:09:56Portugal had an empire in decline, Spain had an empire in decline,

0:09:56 > 0:10:00Rome, Persia, it always happens.

0:10:00 > 0:10:04We are now at the final end of

0:10:04 > 0:10:08the decline of the English-stroke-British Empire.

0:10:08 > 0:10:11And the home unit, which is basically England

0:10:11 > 0:10:15because it is the major part of the United Kingdom,

0:10:15 > 0:10:18has been in serious economic trouble,

0:10:18 > 0:10:21not for the last four or five years, but for decades.

0:10:21 > 0:10:24I can remember as a boy

0:10:24 > 0:10:28everybody tuning in to Sir Stafford Cripps' emergency budget,

0:10:28 > 0:10:30and it's been like that ever since.

0:10:30 > 0:10:34- That's taking us back a long way. - Yes, of course.- That's the point.

0:10:34 > 0:10:37- Can you really remember Stafford Cripps?- That's the point.

0:10:37 > 0:10:39As a matter of fact, when I was a boy,

0:10:39 > 0:10:41there were two things that mattered.

0:10:41 > 0:10:45One was the emergency budget and the other was the harvest.

0:10:45 > 0:10:48Because when I was a boy, we knew where food came from.

0:10:48 > 0:10:49It came from farms,

0:10:49 > 0:10:52not like supermarkets, as some folk think now.

0:10:52 > 0:10:56So we've had this decline. What's the future?

0:10:56 > 0:11:01At the moment, we are heading, if we stay in the United Kingdom,

0:11:01 > 0:11:06for a national debt of £1.5 trillion.

0:11:07 > 0:11:13George... This is not scaremongering. That's a fact.

0:11:13 > 0:11:18..Osborne says that come 2015, 2016,

0:11:18 > 0:11:24after the next election, there are £25 billion worth of cuts coming.

0:11:24 > 0:11:28And there'll be more after that as well.

0:11:28 > 0:11:33So the question is, do we want to stay in an austerity-bound country,

0:11:33 > 0:11:37the United Kingdom, or do we want to do something different,

0:11:37 > 0:11:42with an entirely different economic model in the years ahead,

0:11:42 > 0:11:46where, independently, we can go in an entirely different direction?

0:11:46 > 0:11:47That's the choice.

0:11:47 > 0:11:49APPLAUSE

0:11:53 > 0:11:56So you'd be free of debt, John Swinney, as Finance Secretary

0:11:56 > 0:11:57of an independent Scotland.

0:11:57 > 0:12:00You won't have anything to pay back to anybody. Is that right?

0:12:00 > 0:12:03We'd certainly be saddled with a tremendous amount of debt

0:12:03 > 0:12:07that's been run up by the successive leaders of the United Kingdom

0:12:07 > 0:12:10in the fashion Jim has just outlined.

0:12:10 > 0:12:12But what we've got the opportunity to do,

0:12:12 > 0:12:14which is where I entirely agree with Jim,

0:12:14 > 0:12:16is that we have the opportunity

0:12:16 > 0:12:19to chart a fundamentally different course

0:12:19 > 0:12:21from the austerity agenda of the UK,

0:12:21 > 0:12:24to concentrate on expanding employment, growing the economy,

0:12:24 > 0:12:28creating the opportunities, getting people to stay in this country,

0:12:28 > 0:12:31not to leave to get their economic opportunities elsewhere,

0:12:31 > 0:12:33- and to build a stronger and more vibrant economy.- John...

0:12:33 > 0:12:35That's the opportunity we've got

0:12:35 > 0:12:38- and we should take it in September. - But John...

0:12:38 > 0:12:41APPLAUSE

0:12:41 > 0:12:42That is what you say in public.

0:12:42 > 0:12:45But what you say in private is a completely different story.

0:12:45 > 0:12:47I don't know if you've picked this up, but a leaked paper

0:12:47 > 0:12:50from John Swinney's department showed you would have to question

0:12:50 > 0:12:52the affordability of pensions,

0:12:52 > 0:12:54- and you would have to make cuts. - But you see...

0:12:54 > 0:12:57No, she's attacking you. Let her attack you.

0:12:57 > 0:12:59- Then you can answer.- I will do.

0:12:59 > 0:13:01But do you disagree that you say one thing in public

0:13:01 > 0:13:04and then you are briefing your own cabinet behind the scenes

0:13:04 > 0:13:07that the future of Scotland as an independent country is quite stark

0:13:07 > 0:13:10and you will face really serious cuts, that are just as serious,

0:13:10 > 0:13:14- if not more serious, than the UK would as a whole?- Well...

0:13:14 > 0:13:15APPLAUSE

0:13:17 > 0:13:20The paper I discussed with my cabinet colleagues was about

0:13:20 > 0:13:24how we can marshal the arguments to put forward the strong proposition

0:13:24 > 0:13:26of how, with the powers in Scotland,

0:13:26 > 0:13:29we can create a stronger economy that generates the wealth

0:13:29 > 0:13:32that enables us to deliver prosperity for people in Scotland.

0:13:32 > 0:13:34As for the affordability of pensions,

0:13:34 > 0:13:38any responsible finance minister that does their job properly

0:13:38 > 0:13:40makes sure we can pay pensions to our pensioners,

0:13:40 > 0:13:44- which is the solemn promise we've made to people in Scotland.- No.

0:13:44 > 0:13:47That is what writing these papers is about, to get the facts in place,

0:13:47 > 0:13:49to get the arguments in place

0:13:49 > 0:13:52so we can deliver the prosperity for the people of Scotland.

0:13:52 > 0:13:53All right. You, sir.

0:13:53 > 0:13:55APPLAUSE

0:13:55 > 0:13:58I absolutely believe that giving young people the vote at 16

0:13:58 > 0:14:00was the right thing to do. However,

0:14:00 > 0:14:03I believe the scaremongering currently going on between parties,

0:14:03 > 0:14:06for example from the Liberal Democrats today stating there

0:14:06 > 0:14:09would have to be border controls between Scotland and England,

0:14:09 > 0:14:11is scaremongering young people

0:14:11 > 0:14:15and I believe that education should be put forward for young people

0:14:15 > 0:14:17on an independent side of that argument.

0:14:17 > 0:14:20- Are you saying... - RUTH DAVIDSON: Can I jump in on that?

0:14:20 > 0:14:23Are you saying all parties are scaremongering to get your vote?

0:14:23 > 0:14:27- Currently, I think both parties... - Yes and no.

0:14:27 > 0:14:30Both the yes and no parties are currently scaremongering,

0:14:30 > 0:14:33and especially young people, who will be voting for the first time,

0:14:33 > 0:14:36I think they should be given a fair chance at voting.

0:14:36 > 0:14:37OK. Hold on a second, Ruth.

0:14:37 > 0:14:41Let's hear from the man up there in the second row from the back.

0:14:41 > 0:14:44I think Mr Swinney is being disingenuous.

0:14:44 > 0:14:47He's always banging on about the economic levers of power

0:14:47 > 0:14:50that he requires to make Scotland progress,

0:14:50 > 0:14:53but he already has tax-raising powers.

0:14:53 > 0:14:58He can increase or decrease them by 3%, and by 2016

0:14:58 > 0:15:02he will have full tax-raising powers through the Scotland Act.

0:15:02 > 0:15:07On top of that, he is forfeiting the right of managing interest rates

0:15:07 > 0:15:10by handing that over to the Bank of England.

0:15:10 > 0:15:13So what does he want? He has a great deal of autonomy

0:15:13 > 0:15:16and a great deal of power in his hands already,

0:15:16 > 0:15:20and he's denying that he does have it.

0:15:20 > 0:15:22So you're saying he's got what he needs

0:15:22 > 0:15:25and doesn't need any more powers?

0:15:25 > 0:15:27I feel he has a great deal of autonomy,

0:15:27 > 0:15:32and he would be forfeiting quite a lot of power

0:15:32 > 0:15:36by developing this sterling zone which he refers to.

0:15:36 > 0:15:40With the Bank of England. And the woman over there, at the back. Yes.

0:15:40 > 0:15:44Jim noted that if we were to leave the UK,

0:15:44 > 0:15:47the main reason would be to avoid the vast amount of debt,

0:15:47 > 0:15:51then why are the main policies that we are focusing on

0:15:51 > 0:15:54is massive services for everyone, freeze on council tax,

0:15:54 > 0:15:58freeze in childcare, possibly a reduction in corporation tax?

0:15:58 > 0:16:00Money doesn't grow on trees.

0:16:00 > 0:16:02You either have to increase tax

0:16:02 > 0:16:05or you will get yourself into a lot of debt.

0:16:05 > 0:16:07APPLAUSE

0:16:10 > 0:16:12There's a few points I want to pick up on.

0:16:12 > 0:16:13I can start with the gentleman here

0:16:13 > 0:16:16when he spoke about giving votes to 16-year-olds.

0:16:16 > 0:16:18I was actually against giving votes to 16-year-olds

0:16:18 > 0:16:21because I don't believe you change the franchise for just one vote.

0:16:21 > 0:16:24If you want a wider discussion about who gets to vote or who doesn't...

0:16:24 > 0:16:28but you don't just pauchle who does the voting in one poll.

0:16:28 > 0:16:32But what I found really interesting, actually, over the last year

0:16:32 > 0:16:34is how engaged young people have been.

0:16:34 > 0:16:37It's been a revelation. It's been, I think, really good for Scotland.

0:16:37 > 0:16:41When he talks about people, young people understanding the issues,

0:16:41 > 0:16:44I think they ask some of the most sensible questions in this debate.

0:16:44 > 0:16:47We've had one of the biggest polls across Scotland in the last year

0:16:47 > 0:16:49was done in Aberdeenshire,

0:16:49 > 0:16:53and every single secondary school in the whole of Aberdeenshire

0:16:53 > 0:16:55had a project where they looked at both sides of the argument,

0:16:55 > 0:16:58they had Yes Scotland material, they had Better Together material,

0:16:58 > 0:17:00they did a project on it

0:17:00 > 0:17:03and then they all went to the polling station on the same day

0:17:03 > 0:17:04and cast their ballots,

0:17:04 > 0:17:07and they had the returning officer from the council doing it.

0:17:07 > 0:17:10It was 75% no, 25% yes.

0:17:10 > 0:17:13Over 10,000 people were polled there.

0:17:13 > 0:17:16For me, this is what I pick up in all the school events I do

0:17:16 > 0:17:18and the university events I do,

0:17:18 > 0:17:20people don't understand in this day and age

0:17:20 > 0:17:23why you are part of a wider union, you want to remove yourself from it.

0:17:23 > 0:17:26Why would you want to break up being part of something bigger?

0:17:26 > 0:17:29As a young person, you are so used to being part of a global society.

0:17:29 > 0:17:33You listen to rock music from America and films from everywhere.

0:17:33 > 0:17:35You've made the point. I'll come to you in a second, Jim.

0:17:35 > 0:17:36APPLAUSE

0:17:36 > 0:17:38While we are on all this,

0:17:38 > 0:17:40I should say you can join in from home on this

0:17:40 > 0:17:43either by text or Twitter, whether in Scotland, England,

0:17:43 > 0:17:44Wales, Northern Ireland.

0:17:44 > 0:17:46The details are on the screen now.

0:17:55 > 0:17:58Twitter seems to be the most popular way of getting in touch

0:17:58 > 0:18:00at the moment. Get Twittering.

0:18:00 > 0:18:02I'd like to hear from some people who...

0:18:02 > 0:18:06We've had a lot of complaints about the way that Scotland might go

0:18:06 > 0:18:10if it votes yes. Have we got people here in favour of a yes vote?

0:18:10 > 0:18:13Are you in favour of a yes vote? OK, give us your view.

0:18:13 > 0:18:14Yes, I would just like to say that

0:18:14 > 0:18:16there's been a lot of focus on the economics,

0:18:16 > 0:18:18and obviously that's important,

0:18:18 > 0:18:21but you have to think about, OK, if we have to make cuts either way,

0:18:21 > 0:18:24let's say that's true, but let's think, do we want to be part

0:18:24 > 0:18:27of a country that decides to make cuts for the most vulnerable,

0:18:27 > 0:18:29the most sick, they want to...

0:18:29 > 0:18:32Basically, it sounds to me like the Coalition Government's policies

0:18:32 > 0:18:35will push a lot of women back into the home,

0:18:35 > 0:18:37or do we want to make cuts in different places

0:18:37 > 0:18:40that could maybe see women and other ethnic minorities

0:18:40 > 0:18:42and the whole of Scotland flourish a lot more?

0:18:42 > 0:18:46That's not just about economics, as well. That's also about culture.

0:18:46 > 0:18:49Are we currently having enough space for Scottish culture?

0:18:49 > 0:18:52Are we having enough space for Scotland to make the most of itself?

0:18:52 > 0:18:54And I think that independence is the way to go

0:18:54 > 0:18:56to make sure that happens.

0:18:56 > 0:18:59APPLAUSE

0:19:00 > 0:19:04John Swinney, just a slight switch of emphasis here.

0:19:04 > 0:19:07You've had quite a lot of time campaigning.

0:19:07 > 0:19:10Why do you think that public opinion appears to be

0:19:10 > 0:19:13two-to-one against voting yes for independence?

0:19:13 > 0:19:14Why do you think that is?

0:19:14 > 0:19:17And I'll ask you this, too, Jim, in a moment.

0:19:17 > 0:19:19I think the answer, David,

0:19:19 > 0:19:22lies in the fact that the debate is

0:19:22 > 0:19:26only now just beginning to be engaged by people in Scotland.

0:19:26 > 0:19:28If you look, the two-to-one figure

0:19:28 > 0:19:31has broadly been the figure for many, many years.

0:19:31 > 0:19:34We are now actively engaged in a debate where people have got

0:19:34 > 0:19:36to make a choice.

0:19:36 > 0:19:39It's not a question that's some years in the future.

0:19:39 > 0:19:41In a few months' time, members of the public

0:19:41 > 0:19:43in Scotland will have to make that choice.

0:19:43 > 0:19:45They're beginning to engage in the debate.

0:19:45 > 0:19:48What we're finding is that when we go into that active discussion,

0:19:48 > 0:19:52when we engage people in these questions, people become more

0:19:52 > 0:19:56supportive of independence as we explain the arguments and rationale.

0:19:56 > 0:19:59That's why it's so important that we get out and about

0:19:59 > 0:20:02around the country, we persuade people of these arguments.

0:20:02 > 0:20:04- It's why we... - I heard this argument six months ago

0:20:04 > 0:20:08when we debated independence on Question Time in Scotland.

0:20:08 > 0:20:10It's been a constant refrain.

0:20:10 > 0:20:12"When people hear the arguments, they'll come to our side."

0:20:12 > 0:20:15They don't show any signs of doing it?

0:20:15 > 0:20:17What we've done in the last few weeks,

0:20:17 > 0:20:20and long after the social attitudes survey

0:20:20 > 0:20:22was put together, we've published the White Paper

0:20:22 > 0:20:24setting out the Government's arguments as to what the

0:20:24 > 0:20:27prospectus is for Scottish independence.

0:20:27 > 0:20:29We'll sustain that argument with people over the course of the

0:20:29 > 0:20:31next eight months and get that to

0:20:31 > 0:20:35as wide an audience as we possibly can.

0:20:35 > 0:20:38Jim Sillars, why do you think it's been,

0:20:38 > 0:20:40at best, very, very slow,

0:20:40 > 0:20:42to grow the yes vote

0:20:42 > 0:20:44or people saying they'll vote yes? What is it?

0:20:44 > 0:20:46I'll come to that in a minute, David.

0:20:46 > 0:20:50But the lady up there said money doesn't grow on trees.

0:20:50 > 0:20:52- The lady up there? Yes. - The lady up there.

0:20:52 > 0:20:54Actually, it does.

0:20:54 > 0:20:55- It does?- Oh, yes.

0:20:55 > 0:20:57- What's the tree?- Can I have one?

0:20:57 > 0:21:00Not everybody's heard... Oh, yes, yes.

0:21:00 > 0:21:03That's just something you obviously don't know about.

0:21:04 > 0:21:07Have you all heard of quantitative easing?

0:21:07 > 0:21:08- AUDIENCE:- Yes.

0:21:08 > 0:21:09That's printing money,

0:21:09 > 0:21:11same as it growing on trees.

0:21:11 > 0:21:17We're now in the ridiculous position where a third of the national debt

0:21:17 > 0:21:22is held by a Government institution, the Bank of England.

0:21:22 > 0:21:27It holds the debt of another Government institution, the Treasury.

0:21:27 > 0:21:31The Treasury pays interest to the Bank of England,

0:21:31 > 0:21:33another Government institution,

0:21:33 > 0:21:37and then takes the money back as interest -

0:21:37 > 0:21:39£35 billion last time.

0:21:39 > 0:21:41This is very funny money, if you think about it.

0:21:41 > 0:21:44I don't want to stop you on that, but I am going to.

0:21:44 > 0:21:48Because John Swinney said there will be debt in an independent Scotland.

0:21:48 > 0:21:52- But I want you to address this question.- I will do.

0:21:52 > 0:21:54Please. We haven't got all day.

0:21:54 > 0:21:58- There's no problem in addressing it very quickly.- OK.

0:21:58 > 0:22:01If you think of it, almost a third of the debt

0:22:01 > 0:22:03is in the Bank of England.

0:22:03 > 0:22:06Is that real debt? Could that be written off debt?

0:22:06 > 0:22:07Probably could be.

0:22:07 > 0:22:11So the debt issue is much more complex than people realise.

0:22:11 > 0:22:16And don't forget, quantitative easing is a form of money grown on...

0:22:16 > 0:22:19So why are those arguments not winning the day?

0:22:19 > 0:22:20I'll tell you why.

0:22:20 > 0:22:23In my opinion, there are two reasons,

0:22:23 > 0:22:26particularly in respect of the Labour voter.

0:22:26 > 0:22:30We are finding that people think

0:22:30 > 0:22:32that if you vote yes you endorse

0:22:32 > 0:22:34Alex Salmond and the SNP,

0:22:34 > 0:22:36and they don't want to do that.

0:22:36 > 0:22:39That's been picked up, that's been talked about,

0:22:39 > 0:22:42sotto voce, everybody know that's the case.

0:22:42 > 0:22:44That's one reason.

0:22:44 > 0:22:49The other reason is that the White Paper was far too large -

0:22:49 > 0:22:55670 pages - and was also launched at the wrong time.

0:22:55 > 0:22:59You don't launch just about three weeks before Christmas.

0:22:59 > 0:23:02Cos, come 12th December, everybody switches off.

0:23:02 > 0:23:04What's the objection to Alex Salmond?

0:23:04 > 0:23:07They voted him in as First Minister of Scotland under devolution.

0:23:07 > 0:23:09Why would people say,

0:23:09 > 0:23:11"Oh, it means we've got to have Salmond"?

0:23:11 > 0:23:14I think there are two types of people.

0:23:14 > 0:23:18One, I think, is using this as an excuse -

0:23:18 > 0:23:21that we don't like Alex Salmond and the SNP.

0:23:21 > 0:23:24That gets them off the hook of engaging in the dialogue.

0:23:24 > 0:23:27The other one is, they've been in Government for some considerable

0:23:27 > 0:23:31period of time, therefore people have taken against them, to some extent.

0:23:31 > 0:23:33- We're tribal in Scotland.- OK.

0:23:33 > 0:23:36Labour voters don't like the SNP.

0:23:36 > 0:23:37But Jim...

0:23:37 > 0:23:40But plenty of Labour voters voted for the SNP in the 2011 election,

0:23:40 > 0:23:42because they thought we were a competent Government

0:23:42 > 0:23:44that did a good job for Scotland.

0:23:44 > 0:23:46Nowhere near the same amount

0:23:46 > 0:23:48are saying they'll vote for yes at the moment.

0:23:48 > 0:23:50Let's wait and see what Labour voters are saying,

0:23:50 > 0:23:52cos I think Jim's right.

0:23:52 > 0:23:54There's an engagement from Labour voters.

0:23:54 > 0:23:56Look at the folk who've come out. Sir Charles Gray, one of the most

0:23:56 > 0:23:59distinguished Scottish Labour politicians,

0:23:59 > 0:24:01who's been former leader of Strathclyde Regional Council.

0:24:01 > 0:24:04Alex Mosson, former Labour Lord Provost of Glasgow.

0:24:04 > 0:24:06- All right.- These are fine Labour individuals

0:24:06 > 0:24:08who've come out to back independence...

0:24:08 > 0:24:11Let's hear from our fine Labour member of the panel.

0:24:11 > 0:24:13What do you say to all this talk about what Labour is

0:24:13 > 0:24:14doing or not doing?

0:24:14 > 0:24:16I'm listening to Jim, and the problem with

0:24:16 > 0:24:18Jim's argument is, unfortunately,

0:24:18 > 0:24:19for the Labour Party in Scotland

0:24:19 > 0:24:22at the moment, the public like the SNP Government.

0:24:22 > 0:24:23It's a popular Government.

0:24:23 > 0:24:25What they don't like is independence.

0:24:25 > 0:24:29That's why I think it will be rejected come September in the vote.

0:24:29 > 0:24:31APPLAUSE

0:24:31 > 0:24:34There is a wider point to that.

0:24:34 > 0:24:37I was interested in your comments about the White Paper.

0:24:37 > 0:24:40It's not really a White Paper, it's an SNP manifesto.

0:24:40 > 0:24:41It's a wish list...

0:24:41 > 0:24:43APPLAUSE

0:24:45 > 0:24:47I have nothing but respect for Jim,

0:24:47 > 0:24:49because he has spent an absolute lifetime

0:24:49 > 0:24:51advocating a cause and he's done it with a level

0:24:51 > 0:24:54of transparency that we're actually not seeing from the SNP Government.

0:24:54 > 0:24:57Now, I disagree with the cause you're espousing.

0:24:57 > 0:24:59Frankly, I disagree with your analysis that Britain is over.

0:24:59 > 0:25:01I actually think the best days are ahead of us

0:25:01 > 0:25:04and the successes of the UK are our successes too

0:25:04 > 0:25:05and, as Scots, we should own them.

0:25:05 > 0:25:09But what I think is decent and honest about you, Jim, is you

0:25:09 > 0:25:12do say things like, "This idea of a currency union is nonsense."

0:25:12 > 0:25:15And I think you've said it's dreamt up on the back of a fag packet.

0:25:15 > 0:25:17This idea of dipping in and out of NATO.

0:25:17 > 0:25:19This idea of making a mess about the EU.

0:25:19 > 0:25:24People can smell when folk aren't necessarily telling the whole truth,

0:25:24 > 0:25:25and I think what's great about you is that

0:25:25 > 0:25:27at least you're unvarnished about what

0:25:27 > 0:25:29you've wanted for an entire lifetime.

0:25:29 > 0:25:30People look at Alex Salmond

0:25:30 > 0:25:33and they know he's trying to play the numbers and he'll say

0:25:33 > 0:25:35or do anything to try and shift the polls

0:25:35 > 0:25:37and get a few hundred votes here or there.

0:25:37 > 0:25:39APPLAUSE

0:25:42 > 0:25:44I'd like to hear a bit more from the audience.

0:25:44 > 0:25:46I said we weren't going to stick

0:25:46 > 0:25:48with independence as an issue right the way through and we won't.

0:25:48 > 0:25:52The woman there with spectacles, on the right. You, madam. Yes.

0:25:52 > 0:25:54I just wanted to say, I think it's fairly apparent

0:25:54 > 0:25:56why people aren't moving in droves

0:25:56 > 0:25:58to change their vote to yes,

0:25:58 > 0:26:01because, let's be honest, the default right now is no.

0:26:01 > 0:26:02We're currently in the UK.

0:26:02 > 0:26:04We have to make a decision to move away from the UK.

0:26:04 > 0:26:06If you asked me tomorrow, I'd probably vote yes.

0:26:06 > 0:26:09But, I tell you what, I wouldn't be that happy about it.

0:26:09 > 0:26:11I'd vote yes cos I want to jettison Westminster.

0:26:11 > 0:26:14I'd vote yes cos I like Scotland's electoral system better.

0:26:14 > 0:26:16I'd vote yes cos I don't think they represent me in London.

0:26:16 > 0:26:18They've got too much power.

0:26:18 > 0:26:20I wouldn't be voting yes because I necessarily think

0:26:20 > 0:26:23the ideas behind an independent Scotland are that great.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25I think that's not coming across.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27In some respects, that's possibly good for you.

0:26:27 > 0:26:29I actually think probably far more people tomorrow

0:26:29 > 0:26:31would vote yes than you think.

0:26:31 > 0:26:33- But they wouldn't enjoy it.- OK.

0:26:33 > 0:26:35APPLAUSE

0:26:35 > 0:26:37And the woman there. Yes.

0:26:37 > 0:26:40When Ruth talks about people not telling the truth,

0:26:40 > 0:26:43Scotland's resources have been eroded for a long time.

0:26:43 > 0:26:46The Scottish waters past Dundee now come under England.

0:26:46 > 0:26:48The House of Lords voted a couple of weeks ago.

0:26:48 > 0:26:51They've taken away the Scottish rights for our renewable energy.

0:26:51 > 0:26:54Where's the truth on that? Not many people know about it.

0:26:54 > 0:26:56That's not in the media.

0:26:56 > 0:26:57All right. And that man.

0:26:59 > 0:27:02I think media control's got a lot to do with things.

0:27:02 > 0:27:05In the week that's seen a university study revealing a bias

0:27:05 > 0:27:08in the media against Scottish independence,

0:27:08 > 0:27:11I think that bears a big part on what people believe

0:27:11 > 0:27:12- and what they read.- The media? OK.

0:27:12 > 0:27:15But also, we're referring to opinion polls a lot

0:27:15 > 0:27:18and look at the opinion polls before the last Scottish elections.

0:27:18 > 0:27:22None were predicting a landslide for the SNP and that's what happened.

0:27:22 > 0:27:24APPLAUSE

0:27:27 > 0:27:28September 18th.

0:27:28 > 0:27:32Let's go on to another question, from Eileen Murray, please.

0:27:32 > 0:27:34Eileen Murray.

0:27:34 > 0:27:37Can Nick Clegg force Lib Dem's peer Lord Rennard

0:27:37 > 0:27:40to apologise for harassment claims

0:27:40 > 0:27:42when he believes he is innocent?

0:27:42 > 0:27:45The Liberal Democrats obviously in some confusion over this.

0:27:45 > 0:27:48But can Nick Clegg force Lord Rennard,

0:27:48 > 0:27:51the man who strategised their election campaigns,

0:27:51 > 0:27:55to apologise for harassment claims when he, Lord Rennard,

0:27:55 > 0:27:58believes he's innocent? John Swinney?

0:27:58 > 0:28:01I don't know if Nick Clegg can force him to do that, but I think...

0:28:01 > 0:28:04I think she means should he, as well as can he.

0:28:04 > 0:28:08I think the issue that I would...

0:28:08 > 0:28:11The lesson I would take from what the Liberal Democrats have

0:28:11 > 0:28:13done about Lord Rennard this week is that when you have

0:28:13 > 0:28:15an issue like this, you have to deal

0:28:15 > 0:28:18with it promptly and effectively

0:28:18 > 0:28:23and to address the issues that people have reasonably and properly set out.

0:28:23 > 0:28:25And if there is information that

0:28:25 > 0:28:28leads to a conclusion that action needs to be taken,

0:28:28 > 0:28:30then action needs to be taken.

0:28:30 > 0:28:33I think the terrible mistake the Liberals have made is to let

0:28:33 > 0:28:35this drag on and to become ever more complicated

0:28:35 > 0:28:39and not to address fundamentally the issues that are at stake.

0:28:39 > 0:28:40And what is the fundamental issue?

0:28:40 > 0:28:42Because you put a QC in charge,

0:28:42 > 0:28:47and he says the women's claims are credible,

0:28:47 > 0:28:49and Lord Rennard says it's not true?

0:28:49 > 0:28:51That essentially...

0:28:51 > 0:28:54When you join a political party, you sign up to a set of rules.

0:28:54 > 0:28:58Part of the rules will be that processes will be applied

0:28:58 > 0:28:59in certain circumstances.

0:28:59 > 0:29:01If you set up an inquiry which says...

0:29:01 > 0:29:04by a QC, to take an independent look and it comes up with

0:29:04 > 0:29:05a conclusion of that type,

0:29:05 > 0:29:07then, if you respect your political party,

0:29:07 > 0:29:11you should follow it and implement the conclusions of that review.

0:29:11 > 0:29:13Which means that Lord Rennard should apologise.

0:29:13 > 0:29:15Ruth Davidson.

0:29:15 > 0:29:17APPLAUSE

0:29:18 > 0:29:21I think what was quite clear here is

0:29:21 > 0:29:24there was a member of a political party, Lord Rennard,

0:29:24 > 0:29:28who made other members of that party feel grossly uncomfortable.

0:29:28 > 0:29:30They felt as if, in some ways,

0:29:30 > 0:29:32their personal space had been invaded.

0:29:32 > 0:29:36They felt in some ways threatened and violated by his actions.

0:29:36 > 0:29:39Now, I think, as somebody...

0:29:39 > 0:29:43as an organisation, a political party has a duty of care

0:29:43 > 0:29:45and pastoral care for its members.

0:29:45 > 0:29:47If a number of members are coming to you...

0:29:47 > 0:29:50And this happened years ago, this isn't just a new thing.

0:29:50 > 0:29:53There were complaints made about this gentleman a long time ago.

0:29:53 > 0:29:56You have to be firm and say to that person,

0:29:56 > 0:29:58"Address your behaviour, because

0:29:58 > 0:30:00"this is affecting other people in the team."

0:30:00 > 0:30:04Even if he denies that he's guilty of any improper behaviour?

0:30:04 > 0:30:06He says that he doesn't think he acted badly.

0:30:06 > 0:30:10But there are members of that party and organisation who felt threatened

0:30:10 > 0:30:11and violated by his actions.

0:30:11 > 0:30:13- And that would be enough? - And who are credible.

0:30:13 > 0:30:17I think you have a duty of care for people and you have to explain to

0:30:17 > 0:30:20someone, "Your actions are affecting other people in the team."

0:30:20 > 0:30:22- OK.- You either send them...

0:30:22 > 0:30:24- They either address that or they're out.- All right.

0:30:24 > 0:30:26That's how you deal with it.

0:30:26 > 0:30:28You don't have to have someone in a political party.

0:30:28 > 0:30:31It's like a publican doesn't have to serve a customer.

0:30:31 > 0:30:34You can say, "Change this or you're gone."

0:30:34 > 0:30:36- You've every right to do so. - Jim Sillars.

0:30:36 > 0:30:38APPLAUSE

0:30:41 > 0:30:43I don't think, in the scale of

0:30:43 > 0:30:45the problems facing humanity,

0:30:45 > 0:30:48that this is the biggest one.

0:30:48 > 0:30:50APPLAUSE

0:30:52 > 0:30:56I don't know what the allegations were.

0:30:56 > 0:30:58They've never been made public,

0:30:58 > 0:31:03so I don't know how any one of us can draw any conclusions whatsoever.

0:31:03 > 0:31:06And as they say in some of the panel games,

0:31:06 > 0:31:08as far as I'm concerned, pass,

0:31:08 > 0:31:12because I don't know enough about it to comment sensibly.

0:31:12 > 0:31:14OK. Kezia.

0:31:16 > 0:31:18I think part of the problem is too many people turned away from it and

0:31:18 > 0:31:20said, "I don't want to be involved in that,

0:31:20 > 0:31:23"I don't want to front that, I don't want to address it."

0:31:23 > 0:31:26And the people I really feel for are the women who have had to

0:31:26 > 0:31:29put themselves on the front of our newspapers to be

0:31:29 > 0:31:32heard about something as simple as everyday sexism.

0:31:32 > 0:31:35Women right across the country every single day

0:31:35 > 0:31:37face this type of experience at work,

0:31:37 > 0:31:39and the world has to change.

0:31:39 > 0:31:41What is the allegation? I've never heard it.

0:31:41 > 0:31:44I've heard inappropriate behaviour,

0:31:44 > 0:31:46but what did he actually do?

0:31:46 > 0:31:50If we knew that, then you could make some judgment.

0:31:50 > 0:31:52The allegations are that he groped a woman.

0:31:52 > 0:31:54Ah, well, that's the first time I've heard that.

0:31:54 > 0:31:57And if you read the Channel 4 blog, I think it's

0:31:57 > 0:31:59Cathy Newman that doggedly pursued this, Channel 4 journalist.

0:31:59 > 0:32:03She's the only reason that this is still with us as an issue.

0:32:03 > 0:32:06I just think it talks a lot about the nature of our society and

0:32:06 > 0:32:09our culture just now, that we do not live in an equal world.

0:32:09 > 0:32:11Women are still oppressed by men.

0:32:11 > 0:32:13This is the experience of women at work every single day,

0:32:13 > 0:32:15and let's talk about it as a country.

0:32:15 > 0:32:17If we don't start talking about it, we can't change it.

0:32:17 > 0:32:19Actually, this... This is not...

0:32:19 > 0:32:21APPLAUSE

0:32:21 > 0:32:23Briefly. Briefly..

0:32:23 > 0:32:25In a weird way, although I agree pretty much, actually, with almost

0:32:25 > 0:32:29everything Kezia's said, I don't think the story is a sex story.

0:32:29 > 0:32:31I think it's a power story,

0:32:31 > 0:32:34and it's about a man who was in a great deal of power

0:32:34 > 0:32:37in his organisation, who'd helped fund it, who was picking who

0:32:37 > 0:32:41was going to be, "I'll make you an MP, darling, I'll make you an MP,"

0:32:41 > 0:32:44and he was exercising that power in a way that was inappropriate.

0:32:44 > 0:32:47And I fully accept you don't want to tread on areas where you haven't

0:32:47 > 0:32:50heard the allegations, Jim, but other people have,

0:32:50 > 0:32:52because there have been victims of Lord Rennard who have

0:32:52 > 0:32:55gone on television and have given up their anonymity,

0:32:55 > 0:32:58even though they found it embarrassing and uncomfortable,

0:32:58 > 0:33:01to say, "This has to stop, because it didn't just happen to me -

0:33:01 > 0:33:04"it happened to others and it shouldn't ever happen again."

0:33:04 > 0:33:06OK. Hold on.

0:33:06 > 0:33:08We're going to move on because, as you say,

0:33:08 > 0:33:13this is not the greatest issue we have to face this evening.

0:33:13 > 0:33:17But I just should comment that Lord Rennard, of course,

0:33:17 > 0:33:21says that he regrets if he caused any hurt or embarrassment

0:33:21 > 0:33:25but will not offer an apology, doesn't believe people should be

0:33:25 > 0:33:29forced to say what they know they should not say or do not mean.

0:33:29 > 0:33:31"I've never hurt or embarrassed or upset anyone,

0:33:31 > 0:33:34"and if I had, I would regret it."

0:33:34 > 0:33:36So he does deny the allegations we've been talking about.

0:33:36 > 0:33:39I'm going to move on because we've got a lot to get through.

0:33:39 > 0:33:42We spent a good half of the programme on Scottish independence.

0:33:42 > 0:33:47I want a question from Patrick Sweeney. No relation, I take it.

0:33:47 > 0:33:51Are the UK Government's changes to the welfare benefit system

0:33:51 > 0:33:56setting the poor free from dependence or punishing them?

0:33:56 > 0:33:59Are the changes that are being made - Iain Duncan Smith's changes

0:33:59 > 0:34:03and the cutbacks on welfare, housing benefit for the young

0:34:03 > 0:34:07and the attempt to produce a single benefit and all that -

0:34:07 > 0:34:11setting people free from dependence?

0:34:11 > 0:34:14Which is what Iain Duncan Smith, in a speech today, said.

0:34:14 > 0:34:17He said he had a historic mission, the Conservatives.

0:34:17 > 0:34:19"Just look at Wilberforce and Shaftesbury,

0:34:19 > 0:34:22"the ending of slavery and of child labour.

0:34:22 > 0:34:25"And it's like that - to put back hope where it's gone."

0:34:25 > 0:34:29Kezia, is that how you see it? Is it freeing people from dependence?

0:34:29 > 0:34:33I think that's probably the intention but it's not working.

0:34:33 > 0:34:36It's not working and Labour, this week, have come out with

0:34:36 > 0:34:39what I think is a good idea - the idea of a compulsory jobs guarantee.

0:34:39 > 0:34:42What we'll do is get people into work, we'll give them

0:34:42 > 0:34:45six months of paid employment, paid at the national minimum wage.

0:34:45 > 0:34:48Because it's all very well for Iain Duncan Smith to tell people

0:34:48 > 0:34:49to go out and get work but there aren't jobs.

0:34:49 > 0:34:51We need to create jobs. Specifically,

0:34:51 > 0:34:54if you're young and don't have work experience,

0:34:54 > 0:34:57you're competing with 20, 30 people for each job that's going.

0:34:57 > 0:35:01And that experience of being dejected time and time again is scarring

0:35:01 > 0:35:04and young people need a chance, a bit of hope, a bit of opportunity.

0:35:04 > 0:35:07And, hopefully, that's what they'll get when Labour is back in power.

0:35:07 > 0:35:10But how is your claim about how you will deal with people

0:35:10 > 0:35:15trying to get jobs any less oppressive

0:35:15 > 0:35:18to people who haven't got work than Duncan Smith's?

0:35:18 > 0:35:21You say, "If they don't have the skills for a job,

0:35:21 > 0:35:25"you lose your jobseeker's allowance, have to take up training,

0:35:25 > 0:35:28- "or you lose your benefits."- What we're saying is, if you don't have

0:35:28 > 0:35:31the skills, we're going to offer you the chance to get them.

0:35:31 > 0:35:33If you don't take the chance, you lose your benefits.

0:35:33 > 0:35:36- That's a sanction.- You're in Iain Duncan Smith's camp.

0:35:36 > 0:35:38I think the Tories support sanctions, the SNP support sanctions,

0:35:38 > 0:35:41the Labour Party support sanctions.

0:35:41 > 0:35:43But what we're trying to do is to give young people a chance.

0:35:43 > 0:35:46We're going to give them a job - that's what they need.

0:35:46 > 0:35:49I spoke on youth unemployment for two years in the Scottish Labour Party.

0:35:49 > 0:35:52I met hundreds of young unemployed people across Scotland

0:35:52 > 0:35:54and all they want is a chance -

0:35:54 > 0:35:57they just want a job, they just want a start in life -

0:35:57 > 0:36:00- and this is our answer, and I think it's a good one.- OK.

0:36:00 > 0:36:02The man up there at the back on the right. You, sir.

0:36:02 > 0:36:05I'm totally opposed to the benefit culture but I'm not talking about

0:36:05 > 0:36:09the working poor or the unemployed or the sick or the elderly.

0:36:09 > 0:36:14I'm talking about the seven billion of welfare money - our taxes -

0:36:14 > 0:36:17that goes straight into the pockets of employers

0:36:17 > 0:36:21who are paying their workers at below the minimum wage. I'm also...

0:36:21 > 0:36:26I'm also annoyed at the £23 billion of our money

0:36:26 > 0:36:29that goes straight into the bank accounts of landlords

0:36:29 > 0:36:33who charge exorbitant rents because there's a housing shortage.

0:36:33 > 0:36:38And I'm totally opposed to the massive tax avoidance

0:36:38 > 0:36:42and evasion that is taking place today on the part of the...

0:36:42 > 0:36:46What do they call them? ..the rich individuals and corporate Britain.

0:36:46 > 0:36:50They're paying next to zero in corporation tax

0:36:50 > 0:36:52and in tax on the rich.

0:36:52 > 0:36:56It's about time welfare dependency was ended and the ordinary people

0:36:56 > 0:37:00of this country got their say and allowed to change what's happening.

0:37:00 > 0:37:03CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:37:09 > 0:37:11Ruth Davidson.

0:37:11 > 0:37:13Some of the things that have happened in this country

0:37:13 > 0:37:15- have been a disgrace. - The things he's describing?

0:37:15 > 0:37:18- No, I think it's an absolute... - No, his points.

0:37:18 > 0:37:19I'm going to come to that.

0:37:19 > 0:37:23I think it's an absolute disgrace that 1.4 million people

0:37:23 > 0:37:26were left unemployed for most of the last decade.

0:37:26 > 0:37:28They were just left in unemployment.

0:37:28 > 0:37:29And what we're trying to do now -

0:37:29 > 0:37:31what the Coalition Government is trying to do -

0:37:31 > 0:37:34is get a route for people back into work,

0:37:34 > 0:37:36and that's why it's about making work pay.

0:37:36 > 0:37:38We even saw the Bank of England, just this week,

0:37:38 > 0:37:40saying the benefits changes are helping do that.

0:37:40 > 0:37:43And it comes in two parts. It is about the biggest work programme,

0:37:43 > 0:37:45which is taking people, treating them as individuals,

0:37:45 > 0:37:48finding out what's stopping them getting into work -

0:37:48 > 0:37:50is it retraining, problems with literacy? -

0:37:50 > 0:37:52putting them on the skills they need.

0:37:52 > 0:37:54It's also about giving people incentives, too.

0:37:54 > 0:37:57That's about taking the lowest paid people out of tax altogether,

0:37:57 > 0:37:59so they've got more money in their pockets.

0:37:59 > 0:38:01That's about raising the minimum wage,

0:38:01 > 0:38:03which we've heard George Osborne will do, so that it always pays

0:38:03 > 0:38:07to be in work and not left for about a decade on benefits.

0:38:07 > 0:38:09I take this gentleman's point here

0:38:09 > 0:38:12about putting money into the pockets of landlords.

0:38:12 > 0:38:14That's why capping of housing benefit,

0:38:14 > 0:38:17so it doesn't go beyond a certain amount, is to reduce

0:38:17 > 0:38:21the exorbitant rates that some private landlords are charging.

0:38:21 > 0:38:24So there's lots of work that's going on to try and reform benefits

0:38:24 > 0:38:26right across the country,

0:38:26 > 0:38:28and the idea is to get people into work,

0:38:28 > 0:38:31cos that is the best route out of poverty in this country -

0:38:31 > 0:38:33getting the country working again.

0:38:33 > 0:38:36- OK. Let's... - APPLAUSE

0:38:36 > 0:38:39Let's hear from one or two... What's your view of this?

0:38:39 > 0:38:41This is mainly for John, really.

0:38:41 > 0:38:42Or everyone, I suppose.

0:38:42 > 0:38:45Basically, you're on about putting people back into work,

0:38:45 > 0:38:47encouraging them to work, right?

0:38:47 > 0:38:51So, why, when people - working people -

0:38:51 > 0:38:55are currently struggling to pay childcare fees,

0:38:55 > 0:38:59in August will you give workless people free childcare?

0:38:59 > 0:39:01Where's the justice in that?

0:39:01 > 0:39:04Why are the working people not getting free benefits?

0:39:04 > 0:39:07Why are the jobless people getting them?

0:39:07 > 0:39:08John Swinney, do you want to answer that?

0:39:08 > 0:39:11Well, certainly for the cohort in August,

0:39:11 > 0:39:14there will be a proportion

0:39:14 > 0:39:18of unemployed parents who will get access to childcare to assist them

0:39:18 > 0:39:21to get back into employment and support them back into employment.

0:39:21 > 0:39:25The childcare expansion is absolutely critical

0:39:25 > 0:39:28to enable people to get into the labour market,

0:39:28 > 0:39:31to support them on that journey out of unemployment

0:39:31 > 0:39:35and into working again, and to give the type of assistance

0:39:35 > 0:39:37which we all know is one of the principal barriers...

0:39:37 > 0:39:40What about working people? Do they deserve nothing?

0:39:40 > 0:39:43What do I get for getting up and going to work every day? Nothing!

0:39:43 > 0:39:47Let me come onto... I... Right... APPLAUSE

0:39:47 > 0:39:49Let me just address the point you're making there.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50I agree entirely with you.

0:39:50 > 0:39:53One of the big problems with the welfare reform programme

0:39:53 > 0:39:57of the UK Government is that it's an attack on the working poor.

0:39:57 > 0:39:59- That's what it is.- It's a kick in the teeth to every working man.

0:39:59 > 0:40:01Say it again.

0:40:01 > 0:40:04It's a kick in the teeth to every working parent that has to...

0:40:04 > 0:40:08- They're crippling costs.- Are you a working parent?- No, my partner is.

0:40:08 > 0:40:11- Your partner is?- I've got family, obviously,

0:40:11 > 0:40:12but I witness it every day.

0:40:12 > 0:40:17It doesn't mean that it doesn't, you know, anger me slightly.

0:40:17 > 0:40:19- More than slightly!- Yeah!

0:40:19 > 0:40:21But your objection is that if you're working,

0:40:21 > 0:40:22you don't get the benefit and then...

0:40:22 > 0:40:26Aye, basically, why are you giving people who aren't working,

0:40:26 > 0:40:28for two-year-old children...

0:40:28 > 0:40:30You're giving them child care - three hours of childcare -

0:40:30 > 0:40:33when they're not working and got nothing...

0:40:33 > 0:40:35They HAVE got stuff to do - I don't mean to categorise like that -

0:40:35 > 0:40:37but, you know, working people are out.

0:40:37 > 0:40:39They're putting back into the system.

0:40:39 > 0:40:43How are you not encouraging people to get into the system?

0:40:43 > 0:40:46Well, that's my point.

0:40:46 > 0:40:49The attack that's been made by the welfare reform programme

0:40:49 > 0:40:51is an attack on the working poor within the society

0:40:51 > 0:40:54and it's a disgrace that that's the focus of the UK Government's attack.

0:40:54 > 0:40:57The other folk who are getting attacked are some of

0:40:57 > 0:40:59the most vulnerable individuals in our society,

0:40:59 > 0:41:04who are on the receiving end of the most disturbing and distressing news

0:41:04 > 0:41:07that they get as part of the whole welfare reform programme,

0:41:07 > 0:41:10which causes upset and distress and difficulty for some of the most

0:41:10 > 0:41:12- vulnerable in our society. - Which is what?

0:41:12 > 0:41:14I'm not trying to deny the vulnerable help.

0:41:14 > 0:41:17- I'm not saying that.- Well, the bedroom tax, for example...

0:41:17 > 0:41:19I had constituents in to see me on Friday

0:41:19 > 0:41:23who are on the receiving end of a visit from the state

0:41:23 > 0:41:27which says that their house is too big to accommodate a couple

0:41:27 > 0:41:30and a daughter who's got disabilities,

0:41:30 > 0:41:33who requires an extra room to store the equipment to support her

0:41:33 > 0:41:34in dealing with a disability.

0:41:34 > 0:41:37Are you against all the things Iain Duncan Smith is bringing in?

0:41:37 > 0:41:39Well, I'm completely against the bedroom tax.

0:41:39 > 0:41:41I think it's an iniquitous attack

0:41:41 > 0:41:44and an attack on some of the most vulnerable within our society today.

0:41:44 > 0:41:46APPLAUSE

0:41:51 > 0:41:54I'm actually appalled

0:41:54 > 0:41:59at how poor people are now being used as scapegoats

0:41:59 > 0:42:03in the political debate that's going on at the present time.

0:42:06 > 0:42:09A lot of folk in that Birmingham street -

0:42:09 > 0:42:13and we had a programme here in Kilmarnock called The Scheme...

0:42:13 > 0:42:18They are, in a sense, the victims of the de-industrialisation

0:42:18 > 0:42:20that took place during the 1980s.

0:42:20 > 0:42:22APPLAUSE

0:42:24 > 0:42:27They are not attractive people.

0:42:27 > 0:42:31We really wouldn't like them as next-door neighbours.

0:42:31 > 0:42:33But both the Labour Party and the Tory Party

0:42:33 > 0:42:36are using them as scapegoats.

0:42:36 > 0:42:42The Shadow person on the front bench in the Labour Party this week

0:42:42 > 0:42:47says, "If you become unemployed, you go along to the jobcentre

0:42:47 > 0:42:51"and you must sit a test to see whether you can read,

0:42:51 > 0:42:55"whether you can count." Now, just think about it -

0:42:55 > 0:42:59suppose you're a very highly skilled man,

0:42:59 > 0:43:04an engineer in British Aerospace down in Preston,

0:43:04 > 0:43:07and you're made redundant, and you go along

0:43:07 > 0:43:10and somebody behind a counter says to you,

0:43:10 > 0:43:14"You're going to sit a test as to whether you can count."

0:43:14 > 0:43:20This man has been dealing with highly complex machinery

0:43:20 > 0:43:24all his life. That's a humiliation, and I think that's appalling.

0:43:24 > 0:43:27OK. Let Ruth answer that. Ruth, will you answer that point? Jim...

0:43:27 > 0:43:30- That's the Labour Party. - That's the Labour Party?

0:43:30 > 0:43:32Yeah, that's Rachel Reeves.

0:43:32 > 0:43:35What do you think of what Rachel Reeves is suggesting?

0:43:35 > 0:43:37To be honest, I think Rachel Reeves' first big foray

0:43:37 > 0:43:41into speaking about welfare showed a real lack of ideas

0:43:41 > 0:43:45or understanding from the Labour Party of what's going on in Britain.

0:43:45 > 0:43:49And I think if Jim wants to raise programmes like Benefits Street,

0:43:49 > 0:43:52I think we have to ask ourselves, why is Benefits Street

0:43:52 > 0:43:55one of these programmes that has shocked many people?

0:43:55 > 0:43:59Because we know that so many people, under the last Labour government,

0:43:59 > 0:44:01were just left out of work...

0:44:01 > 0:44:06- It happened under your government, as well.- For years, Jim. For years.

0:44:07 > 0:44:10The woman there, and then I'll come to you, Kezia. Yes? You.

0:44:10 > 0:44:13Leading on from the lady at the front,

0:44:13 > 0:44:16it's not just people on benefits that need help.

0:44:16 > 0:44:18I have friends who are working, both full time,

0:44:18 > 0:44:21that are using food banks, they can't afford to get

0:44:21 > 0:44:24gas and electric for their children.

0:44:24 > 0:44:27It should not be happening in today's society.

0:44:27 > 0:44:28- APPLAUSE - Yeah.

0:44:32 > 0:44:35You, sir, in the fourth row. Yes?

0:44:35 > 0:44:37Yes, you.

0:44:37 > 0:44:39Going by what Ruth said earlier on,

0:44:39 > 0:44:43I don't think the problem is to do with capping the benefit.

0:44:43 > 0:44:47The Government should legislate against what the landlord takes.

0:44:47 > 0:44:51I think that should be more better off than capping the benefit.

0:44:51 > 0:44:56The landlord should not be allowed to have rent above a certain amount.

0:44:56 > 0:44:59Yes. APPLAUSE

0:44:59 > 0:45:02Let's go back to Rachel Reeves.

0:45:02 > 0:45:05Kezia, what do you make of the attack on her

0:45:05 > 0:45:07for being callous and ruthless?

0:45:07 > 0:45:11Ruth accuses the Labour Party of having a lack of understanding

0:45:11 > 0:45:15and also, in the same answer, says that work should pay.

0:45:15 > 0:45:17Well, I believe work should pay but it's her government that

0:45:17 > 0:45:22has built a recovery on temporary contracts and zero-hour contracts.

0:45:22 > 0:45:23APPLAUSE

0:45:23 > 0:45:2675% of over a million jobs that have been created across the UK

0:45:26 > 0:45:28are full-time jobs.

0:45:28 > 0:45:3275% of over a million jobs that have been created in the UK

0:45:32 > 0:45:35since the Coalition Government came to power are full-time jobs.

0:45:35 > 0:45:38So don't just make assertions when you don't have the figures to back it up.

0:45:38 > 0:45:41Let me tell you a story and it will be a brief one, I promise you that.

0:45:41 > 0:45:44I do a lot of campaigning against debt in Scotland.

0:45:44 > 0:45:46I spent a morning with a debt charity on the phones

0:45:46 > 0:45:48listening to people call in.

0:45:48 > 0:45:51I heard a guy talk about how he'd been on benefits for ages.

0:45:51 > 0:45:54He'd got a job working for a big warehouse company,

0:45:54 > 0:45:55you can imagine which one it is,

0:45:55 > 0:45:58and he came off benefits onto a zero-hour contract.

0:45:58 > 0:46:01Because he was under employment at that point,

0:46:01 > 0:46:03he couldn't get benefits any more. He was living from one week

0:46:03 > 0:46:06to the next trying to find out if he had any hours.

0:46:06 > 0:46:09He was taking out a payday loan debt to try and get from one week to

0:46:09 > 0:46:12the next because there was just too much month at the end of his money.

0:46:12 > 0:46:14That is no existence.

0:46:14 > 0:46:17That's the kind of recovery that George Osborne has been on the telly

0:46:17 > 0:46:18gloating about this week.

0:46:18 > 0:46:21For the vast majority of low-paid Britain just now,

0:46:21 > 0:46:24people are hurting. They're putting things back on the shelf,

0:46:24 > 0:46:26they can't pay the electricity bills.

0:46:26 > 0:46:29- We have the cost-of-living crisis. - You doubled those people's taxes.

0:46:29 > 0:46:31- APPLAUSE - They had a 10p tax rate.

0:46:32 > 0:46:35The Labour Party doubled the lowest-paid tax rate.

0:46:35 > 0:46:38They were paying 10p and you doubled it to 20p.

0:46:38 > 0:46:42All those people who were on 10p are paying nothing under the Coalition.

0:46:42 > 0:46:44We've taken millions of people out of taxation.

0:46:44 > 0:46:48- How much are they saving?- £700 a year, which is a huge difference

0:46:48 > 0:46:52when you are living that close on low pay.

0:46:52 > 0:46:55You accept this figure, £700 better off?

0:46:55 > 0:46:57And also raising the minimum wage

0:46:57 > 0:47:00beyond £7 will make a huge difference to people too.

0:47:00 > 0:47:02- All right.- It's about making sure

0:47:02 > 0:47:05that work will always pay more than being on benefits.

0:47:05 > 0:47:07- That's what these changes are about. - But you need jobs!

0:47:07 > 0:47:10There's over a million jobs been created.

0:47:10 > 0:47:13Unemployment is down to 6.4% in Scotland.

0:47:13 > 0:47:17I'm utterly amazed when people say, "It's down to 6%."

0:47:17 > 0:47:226% means thousands and thousands of people unemployed.

0:47:22 > 0:47:26They all talk about making work pay. APPLAUSE

0:47:26 > 0:47:30How do you make work pay when there are no jobs

0:47:30 > 0:47:32available when you're at 6%?

0:47:32 > 0:47:36APPLAUSE

0:47:36 > 0:47:38In the front from you, sir, yes. The man in spectacles there.

0:47:38 > 0:47:41Then I will come to you, yes.

0:47:41 > 0:47:45The minimum wage would be increased, I think, very soon.

0:47:45 > 0:47:48Would that put a pressure on inflation

0:47:48 > 0:47:52and minimum wages already are increasing?

0:47:52 > 0:47:54They are saying it's inflation adjusted

0:47:54 > 0:47:57but what about the increasing house prices,

0:47:57 > 0:48:00because the house prices goes at a faster rate than CPI inflation.

0:48:00 > 0:48:04We've got a question on minimum wage, I'll take it now because that is the next step.

0:48:04 > 0:48:08The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said he's planning to introduce,

0:48:08 > 0:48:11subject to agreement with the commission that does it.

0:48:11 > 0:48:14Colin MacNab has got the question on the minimum wage.

0:48:14 > 0:48:15Let's have that, can we?

0:48:15 > 0:48:18Can small and medium-sized private businesses

0:48:18 > 0:48:20afford a 10% rise in the minimum wage?

0:48:20 > 0:48:23Is that a thing that worries you, that they may not be able to?

0:48:23 > 0:48:27Well, you talk about childcare, is that going to go up 10% overnight?

0:48:27 > 0:48:31People trying to work in the global market.

0:48:31 > 0:48:35Is their wage rates going to go up by 10% overnight?

0:48:35 > 0:48:38The small shopkeepers struggling to make a living.

0:48:38 > 0:48:41Would we not be better going for the top 10%,

0:48:41 > 0:48:45working from the top down rather than from the bottom up?

0:48:45 > 0:48:49OK, Ruth, can the country's economy

0:48:49 > 0:48:51afford this, and the small businesses

0:48:51 > 0:48:55and medium-sized private businesses afford this?

0:48:55 > 0:48:58Well, actually one question kind of answers the other,

0:48:58 > 0:49:00in that the minimum wage had fallen slightly behind.

0:49:00 > 0:49:03I think it's right that it gets up-rated now.

0:49:03 > 0:49:06I think it's right that, as the country comes out of

0:49:06 > 0:49:09one of the worst recessions that we've ever had,

0:49:09 > 0:49:11and we're beginning to get on the right track.

0:49:11 > 0:49:14I absolutely take on board that we have a long way to go.

0:49:14 > 0:49:17We have a lot of hard medicine to take, and we've a long way to go,

0:49:17 > 0:49:20but we are seeing signs this week of a recovery coming into gear.

0:49:20 > 0:49:22You are not answering his question,

0:49:22 > 0:49:24which is, can small businesses afford it?

0:49:24 > 0:49:26- I'm getting to it. - Get to it, if you would.

0:49:26 > 0:49:29I don't mean to be rude, we haven't much time.

0:49:29 > 0:49:31I think the people that we have a duty to help first

0:49:31 > 0:49:33are the lowest paid, to make sure that

0:49:33 > 0:49:36the recovery does benefit them first.

0:49:36 > 0:49:39But if you close small businesses as a result,

0:49:39 > 0:49:41is it going to be any benefit to anybody?

0:49:41 > 0:49:44We've helped a number of small businesses in terms of reducing

0:49:44 > 0:49:46National Insurance contributions when you take on a new person.

0:49:46 > 0:49:49They don't have to pay National Insurance for the first time.

0:49:49 > 0:49:51That's a huge benefit to business.

0:49:51 > 0:49:53There are small business bonus schemes in operation.

0:49:53 > 0:49:57- So there's work going on there too. - Is Labour in favour of this increase?

0:49:57 > 0:49:59In terms of how much money people have in their pockets,

0:49:59 > 0:50:02the lowest paid, we have a duty to make sure that they are one of

0:50:02 > 0:50:04the first people to feel the benefits from an upturn.

0:50:04 > 0:50:07Is Labour in favour of this increase in the minimum wage?

0:50:07 > 0:50:10Yes, Ed Miliband is committed to increasing the national minimum wage

0:50:10 > 0:50:12by above inflation rates.

0:50:12 > 0:50:15What do you say to the questioner about people who won't be able

0:50:15 > 0:50:19- to afford it?- I have sympathy for that point of view, without a doubt.

0:50:19 > 0:50:22What small businesses need is stability and a fighting chance,

0:50:22 > 0:50:25but there's a socially just argument

0:50:25 > 0:50:27for a living wage and a higher national minimum wage.

0:50:27 > 0:50:31There is an economic case for a higher national minimum wage.

0:50:31 > 0:50:34That's better productivity of staff, happier staff,

0:50:34 > 0:50:36reduced sick leave, lower retention rates.

0:50:36 > 0:50:39I think, as politicians, if we make the economic case for why

0:50:39 > 0:50:42paying your staff more is a good thing

0:50:42 > 0:50:44then I think there will be less resistance to it.

0:50:44 > 0:50:45So it's about the arguments you make as well.

0:50:45 > 0:50:48Why does it increase productivity to pay people more?

0:50:48 > 0:50:52For a start, they don't have to have three jobs to make ends meet.

0:50:52 > 0:50:54That's one point. People are just happier.

0:50:54 > 0:50:57You can go home after a hard-working week, put food on the table

0:50:57 > 0:50:58and do things with your family

0:50:58 > 0:51:02and that work pays in the way that Ruth clearly doesn't understand.

0:51:02 > 0:51:05OK. I'll come to you, John. The man in the blue shirt there.

0:51:05 > 0:51:07Could you not reduce the base rate of tax

0:51:07 > 0:51:09instead of making small businesses pay,

0:51:09 > 0:51:13to increase people's money for the cost of living?

0:51:13 > 0:51:17- John Swinney?- I think the key thing is there has to be

0:51:17 > 0:51:21a regular and clear increase in the minimum wage.

0:51:21 > 0:51:25We've certainly committed ourselves on an ongoing basis to ensure that

0:51:25 > 0:51:28the minimum wage increases with inflation, because we've got

0:51:28 > 0:51:30wage rates in this country which cannot allow people to meet

0:51:30 > 0:51:33the challenges of living and supporting a family.

0:51:33 > 0:51:36What government's got to do is to give practical

0:51:36 > 0:51:39and realistic support to small businesses to assist them.

0:51:39 > 0:51:44That's why we have, for example, exempted or reduced the business

0:51:44 > 0:51:47rates of over 90,000 small businesses in this country.

0:51:47 > 0:51:50It's bit rich for Kezia to say she sympathises with the problem.

0:51:50 > 0:51:53Kezia wanted us to increase the business rates for companies...

0:51:53 > 0:51:55- That's not true.- ..within Scotland.

0:51:55 > 0:51:58You opposed the financial decisions I took before Christmas...

0:51:58 > 0:52:01John, I voted for your budget this week. I voted for your budget.

0:52:01 > 0:52:04Well, it took a long time for to you get round to the sensible

0:52:04 > 0:52:06- position of doing that! - It's Stage one, it's Stage one!

0:52:06 > 0:52:08You're complaining about her and she voted for you.

0:52:08 > 0:52:10What I'm complaining about is that

0:52:10 > 0:52:13- she likes to have her cake and eat it.- Don't we all.

0:52:13 > 0:52:14That's what I'm complaining about.

0:52:14 > 0:52:17You, sir, do you think they're having their cake and eating it?

0:52:17 > 0:52:20I based my question on a financial point and not a moral one.

0:52:20 > 0:52:23We should, as Scotland, be it Scotland or the UK,

0:52:23 > 0:52:26we've really got to start manufacturing things

0:52:26 > 0:52:28and making things to create money.

0:52:28 > 0:52:32- That's right.- You can't bring the bottom up, you've got to try and

0:52:32 > 0:52:38close the tax loopholes and get the top 5%, 10% to pay more.

0:52:39 > 0:52:42To create manufacturing jobs, decent jobs.

0:52:42 > 0:52:45And the steps we're taking are to reduce the business costs

0:52:45 > 0:52:47to small companies to make sure

0:52:47 > 0:52:50they can make that contribution to the Scottish economy.

0:52:50 > 0:52:52All right. The woman there with spectacles.

0:52:52 > 0:52:56Can I just say, I think it's really unfortunate that the gentleman there

0:52:56 > 0:52:59is talking about it being more about finances than about morals.

0:52:59 > 0:53:02I would suggest that it's extremely immoral to blame the poorest

0:53:02 > 0:53:07in society for manufactured austerity, when actually what

0:53:07 > 0:53:11we're looking at is the rich getting far, far richer, stockpiling money,

0:53:11 > 0:53:15and being given nothing but benefits,

0:53:15 > 0:53:18so rich people are paying far, far less tax,

0:53:18 > 0:53:20even than under Margaret Thatcher's time.

0:53:20 > 0:53:23Tax rates for the rich have gone down and down,

0:53:23 > 0:53:26whereas we've got poor people being blamed

0:53:26 > 0:53:30for needing an austere budget. It's nonsense.

0:53:30 > 0:53:33APPLAUSE

0:53:33 > 0:53:38I agree completely with what the lady's just said

0:53:38 > 0:53:41and back to Jim said about the poor in this country being vilified.

0:53:41 > 0:53:44It's criminal what Iain Duncan Smith has done to this country.

0:53:44 > 0:53:47They're not going after... Can I just say...

0:53:47 > 0:53:50People talk about the benefits and how they're vilified.

0:53:50 > 0:53:53There's figures come out that the tax avoiders in this country

0:53:53 > 0:53:56cost this country 54 times what's paid in benefit.

0:53:56 > 0:53:58It's criminal what that party's getting away with

0:53:58 > 0:54:02- and it needs to stop. - APPLAUSE

0:54:05 > 0:54:09I think that by not keeping the minimum wage

0:54:09 > 0:54:11up to a reasonable level

0:54:11 > 0:54:15has meant we've had to intervene and subsidise that.

0:54:15 > 0:54:19That's been a huge mistake and we're really in a mess now.

0:54:19 > 0:54:22It's going to be very difficult to change it.

0:54:22 > 0:54:24OK. And you.

0:54:24 > 0:54:26When we talk about the poor, I think we have to be conscious,

0:54:26 > 0:54:29when a three-year-old boy went missing in Edinburgh, it was the

0:54:29 > 0:54:33poor and people on Benefits Street out in the cold looking for the kid.

0:54:33 > 0:54:36APPLAUSE

0:54:39 > 0:54:42We have a couple of minutes left. Blair McKenzie.

0:54:42 > 0:54:43Can we have your question?

0:54:43 > 0:54:47What happens after Scotland votes no?

0:54:47 > 0:54:50What happens after Scotland votes no?

0:54:50 > 0:54:54Clearly, a supposition based on the figures at the moment.

0:54:54 > 0:54:58Let's just take it as supposition. You have to be brief on this.

0:54:58 > 0:55:00Jim Sillars, what happens if Scotland votes no?

0:55:00 > 0:55:03By 2016,

0:55:03 > 0:55:09those who voted no, if the nation votes no, will bitterly regret it.

0:55:09 > 0:55:10OK.

0:55:10 > 0:55:13APPLAUSE

0:55:16 > 0:55:18Kezia, what happens?

0:55:18 > 0:55:19I'm a positive person.

0:55:19 > 0:55:22I think good things will happen. We'll see more devolution.

0:55:22 > 0:55:25You have three political parties committed to more devolution,

0:55:25 > 0:55:29the Labour Party will put forward its plans for that in March.

0:55:29 > 0:55:31How much more devolution do you want to see?

0:55:31 > 0:55:34Well, we have a devolution commission, I'm not on it.

0:55:34 > 0:55:36A lot of that work is still going on at the moment.

0:55:36 > 0:55:39We'll make sure Scotland has the levers to make the type of change

0:55:39 > 0:55:42- we want to see in this country. - But if you want more devolution,

0:55:42 > 0:55:44why not have independence and be done with it?

0:55:44 > 0:55:47APPLAUSE

0:55:47 > 0:55:52Because... Because I believe, first and foremost,

0:55:52 > 0:55:55we have the best of both worlds where we currently are.

0:55:55 > 0:55:57I want a strong Scottish Parliament in a strong United Kingdom.

0:55:57 > 0:55:59And I think we can have that.

0:55:59 > 0:56:03OK. John Swinney, if it goes no, what happens?

0:56:03 > 0:56:06You'll understand, David, that I'm not going to contemplate...

0:56:06 > 0:56:08Hypothetical question.

0:56:08 > 0:56:10I never deal with hypothetical questions.

0:56:10 > 0:56:13You must! You must! Why not? Everybody deals with...

0:56:13 > 0:56:17I'm going to devote every single moment I can to ensure that...

0:56:17 > 0:56:19- No, no, that's not an answer. - ..Scotland is persuaded by the

0:56:19 > 0:56:21- arguments for independence. - That's not an answer.

0:56:21 > 0:56:23Jim Sillars is absolutely right.

0:56:23 > 0:56:26Scotland has everything to gain from independence

0:56:26 > 0:56:28and we've got everything to gain from taking control...

0:56:28 > 0:56:30- That's no answer.- ..of our own destiny and future,

0:56:30 > 0:56:32and we should go for it. That's no answer!

0:56:32 > 0:56:35APPLAUSE AND CHEERING

0:56:38 > 0:56:43I thought you would describe black clouds glowering over Scotland

0:56:43 > 0:56:47and if Scotland votes no, it'll be the end of the world!

0:56:47 > 0:56:49"Not at all," you say, "We're going to win.

0:56:49 > 0:56:55- Well...we will win.- Ruth. Very briefly. Briefly if you would.

0:56:55 > 0:56:57I hope we then stop talking about the constitution

0:56:57 > 0:57:00and start talking about the things that matter to people

0:57:00 > 0:57:01cos Scotland's been on pause.

0:57:01 > 0:57:04We don't want to talk about hospitals, schools, jobs, police,

0:57:04 > 0:57:07opportunities for our young people. Because we've been talking too long

0:57:07 > 0:57:09about the constitutional make-up of Scotland,

0:57:09 > 0:57:12and not enough about what we want for the people who are in Scotland.

0:57:12 > 0:57:14OK, Blair McKenzie.

0:57:16 > 0:57:20- Blair McKenzie, last word to you. - The important question is,

0:57:20 > 0:57:23if we vote no, how long does this debate go away for?

0:57:23 > 0:57:26Because my fear is that it will keep cropping up.

0:57:26 > 0:57:30So, can we have a guarantee that it'll be put aside for 100 years?

0:57:30 > 0:57:37And... And... And then what's the process that we move forward?

0:57:37 > 0:57:40Does England get a pound, like Scotland and Wales?

0:57:40 > 0:57:44How do we have the debate? What's the process, the mechanisms

0:57:44 > 0:57:47that we consider devolution or no devolution?

0:57:47 > 0:57:49OK, well, perish the thought.

0:57:49 > 0:57:52We wouldn't have anything to talk about if we had...

0:57:52 > 0:57:54For 100 years!

0:57:54 > 0:57:56Thank you very much for the point. Our time's up now.

0:57:56 > 0:57:58We'll be in Norwich next week.

0:57:58 > 0:58:01We have Ken Clarke among our panellists.

0:58:01 > 0:58:04And the week after that we're going to be in Gillingham in Kent.

0:58:04 > 0:58:07If you'd like to come to either programme and see what it's like

0:58:07 > 0:58:08to take part in Norwich or Gillingham,

0:58:08 > 0:58:12apply on our website. The address is there on the screen.

0:58:12 > 0:58:15Or call 0330 123 99 88.

0:58:15 > 0:58:19If you're listening on Radio 5 Live, as you know,

0:58:19 > 0:58:21this debate goes on, on Question Time Extra Time.

0:58:21 > 0:58:24It just leaves it to me to thank our panel

0:58:24 > 0:58:28and to all of you who came to Dundee tonight for Question Time.

0:58:28 > 0:58:31Until next Thursday, from all of us here, good night.