:00:10. > :00:21.welcome to Question Time. Welcome to you at home, to our audience, who
:00:22. > :00:26.will ask the questions, and our panel, who do not know the questions
:00:27. > :00:30.until they hear them. Conservative Home Office Minister, Damian Green,
:00:31. > :00:34.Labour Shadow employment minister, Chris Bryant, from UKIP, one of
:00:35. > :00:39.their leading candidates for the European elections, Janice Atkinson,
:00:40. > :00:43.Daily Telegraph columnist Cristina Odone, and Labour peer, broadcast
:00:44. > :00:45.and Professor of science and society at Imperial College London, Robert
:00:46. > :01:05.Winston. The first question from Max Bell,
:01:06. > :01:08.please. Why does it take flooding to hit the south-east of England before
:01:09. > :01:23.the Westminster village notice or even care? Damian Green. I think
:01:24. > :01:27.that is half fare. Which bit? When you say the Westminster village, it
:01:28. > :01:31.is certainly true that the 24-hour news channels found it easier to get
:01:32. > :01:36.to the Thames Valley than they did to the Somerset Levels. But the
:01:37. > :01:40.truth is that the spread of the floods, and the incessant nature of
:01:41. > :01:46.the bad weather, has just made this a more important and bigger
:01:47. > :01:50.emergency as the weeks have passed. We now know that we have had the
:01:51. > :01:56.wettest period for 215 is, so it is not surprising that various
:01:57. > :02:03.authorities dealing with it are having to catch up around the
:02:04. > :02:07.country. -- 250 years. That is why we have schemes to help not just
:02:08. > :02:12.householders, but separate schemes to help farmers, rate relief for
:02:13. > :02:16.businesses and so on, because this is a very serious emergency in large
:02:17. > :02:20.parts of the country, and people need and deserve that help. That is
:02:21. > :02:26.why the Army have come in, and obviously the police are doing a
:02:27. > :02:30.good job, as always. But his point is different, that this has only
:02:31. > :02:35.happened because the flooding is in the south-east. Isn't that right?
:02:36. > :02:38.Absolutely. In Scunthorpe we have the River Trent and the River Humber
:02:39. > :02:45.which are extremely liable to flooding. Back in December, hundreds
:02:46. > :02:47.of people had to be evacuated. There are members of the audience here who
:02:48. > :02:51.had to raise thousands of pounds because they were not getting any
:02:52. > :02:55.help. There was no news coverage, nobody cared, there were no
:02:56. > :03:00.statements, nobody looking daft in wellies. It is -- if it is not
:03:01. > :03:10.within ten miles of London, they don't care. Do you agree at the
:03:11. > :03:15.back? I would like to quote some figures in relation to flooding
:03:16. > :03:20.historically in the UK. There is a blog currently on with Paul Hudson,
:03:21. > :03:28.that presents north-west weather. He has quoted that in 2007, there were
:03:29. > :03:32.23,500 homes flooded in the UK. Last year, in the Yorkshire and Humber
:03:33. > :03:35.region, there were 66,000 homes flooded. And you can compare that to
:03:36. > :03:42.the Somerset Levels which, apparently, 40 houses were flooded.
:03:43. > :03:45.I understand there are print -- plenty of other properties that were
:03:46. > :03:48.cut off, and I understand that in comparison to the south of England
:03:49. > :03:57.currently that pales into insignificance. You have heard the
:03:58. > :04:01.number of people complaining about how they were treated. I would be
:04:02. > :04:05.spitting with fury if I lived up here. Today it is announced that the
:04:06. > :04:08.people who were flooded in December will get the same money it was
:04:09. > :04:12.announced by David Cameron earlier this week and is going to people in
:04:13. > :04:22.the Thames Valley and in Somerset. Why did that not happen in Sepp Ash
:04:23. > :04:29.in December? -- why did it not happen in December. In 2007 there
:04:30. > :04:33.was major flooding in Hull. We had a scheme in place in two weeks. It is
:04:34. > :04:37.two months we have been talking about here, and longer in relation
:04:38. > :04:45.to the north-east. I remember when I was first elected in 2001, we had
:04:46. > :04:48.terrible flooding in the Rhondda Valley in two very small areas,
:04:49. > :04:51.basically because the local authority had not cleaned out the
:04:52. > :04:55.water channels for a long time. There were bricks and all sorts of
:04:56. > :05:00.stuff in there, which meant the water built up behind. Secondly,
:05:01. > :05:05.because the pumping station was frankly Victorian. I get really
:05:06. > :05:09.depressed that we still talk about Brunel's engineering and wanting to
:05:10. > :05:15.protect that. What about modern engineering? Why are we relying on
:05:16. > :05:17.Victorian engineering? You attacked the government, and everybody here
:05:18. > :05:20.was critical of the government for doing nothing in December. The
:05:21. > :05:26.?5,000 people are getting as a result of what happened in the
:05:27. > :05:29.Thames Valley, why wasn't it here? As I remember, the local council
:05:30. > :05:34.actually set up a compensation scheme straightaway which was very
:05:35. > :05:39.good and sensible. I remember at the time thinking, why is this not being
:05:40. > :05:43.reported? The truth was, as I remember, it coincided with the
:05:44. > :05:48.death of Nelson Mandela and the entire world media decamped to South
:05:49. > :05:54.Africa. Actually, I agree, it was certainly under reported. You, on
:05:55. > :05:59.the right. I think there is a serious lack of planning for
:06:00. > :06:02.flooding. David Cameron, the reason he had no involvement for maybe six
:06:03. > :06:05.or eight weeks was because he was letting the guys on the ground get
:06:06. > :06:09.it into some kind of order as to what they were going to do with the
:06:10. > :06:14.floods. For a start, people say, what is David Cameron going to do?
:06:15. > :06:18.Build a wall around the country? There were 60 foot waves crashing on
:06:19. > :06:22.some of those beaches. We cannot stop those floods. We are talking
:06:23. > :06:25.about ground water coming up from the water table. We cannot prevent
:06:26. > :06:31.that. We have that much rain coming down. When I referred to the lack of
:06:32. > :06:35.planning, is it not time firefighters were used as a
:06:36. > :06:38.statutory obligation to respond to floods, because at the moment they
:06:39. > :06:45.are doing it out of goodwill and using parts of the budget that are
:06:46. > :06:48.therefore other activities? I agree there is not much David Cameron can
:06:49. > :06:52.do except where wellies and go around for a photo opportunity. But
:06:53. > :06:56.there is such a thing as the environmental agency. What I would
:06:57. > :06:59.like to point out to those of you who are very cross about the North
:07:00. > :07:07.and lack of activity, lack of support here, I have in-laws in
:07:08. > :07:11.Somerset and friends who are farmers in the Somerset Levels. They were
:07:12. > :07:15.calling the Environment Agency in December, before Christmas, and
:07:16. > :07:20.saying, look, the dredging of the rivers must happen now, because we
:07:21. > :07:24.can see, everybody is predicting a bad winter and we can see what is
:07:25. > :07:28.going to happen. And the Environment Agency said, no, it is not really
:07:29. > :07:34.necessary. So I think that Cameron himself, what could he do? But there
:07:35. > :07:38.is a regulatory body there. It is the Environment Agency. Why were
:07:39. > :07:41.they so inactive, not responding to people who were calling and saying,
:07:42. > :07:52.we have lived here a long time, we know what is about to happen, let's
:07:53. > :07:56.not dilly-dally? We hear now that dredging the rivers would not
:07:57. > :08:01.benefit people. It is just going to move the problem further downstream.
:08:02. > :08:06.Damian Green, comment on this, because you will remember that Eric
:08:07. > :08:10.Pickles, the Communities Secretary, said exactly what Cristina Odone is
:08:11. > :08:15.saying, I apologise, I am really sorry, we took the advice of what we
:08:16. > :08:20.thought, we thought we were dealing with experts. Is that right? Is it
:08:21. > :08:27.the feeling in government that you were let down by the Environment
:08:28. > :08:31.Agency? Or let down by Eric Pickles? There is clearly a crisis we need to
:08:32. > :08:36.sort out. Let's stick with Eric Pickles. He was very clear, he went
:08:37. > :08:40.on television and said, we thought we were dealing with experts. He
:08:41. > :08:45.criticised the Environment Agency for being responsible. My
:08:46. > :08:49.understanding, and I do not intend to become an armchair hydrologist.
:08:50. > :08:54.The nation is now full of people, who, just as we go to war, we all
:08:55. > :08:59.become armchair generals, we are now becoming experts on river flows and
:09:00. > :09:02.hydrology. I am not an expert. But my understanding is that in the
:09:03. > :09:06.Somerset Levels, dredging might have helped a bit but actually would not
:09:07. > :09:11.have been a magic bullet. In other places, such as the Thames Valley,
:09:12. > :09:17.there are so many locks and weirs and so on, that you do not alter the
:09:18. > :09:20.flow very much by dredging. Let's go back to the issue of whether it was
:09:21. > :09:25.because it was in the south-east that the government acted. Is it not
:09:26. > :09:28.the fact that it is highlighting the north- south divide again, and there
:09:29. > :09:37.are more Conservative seats down south than up north? Well, I don't
:09:38. > :09:40.think it is a political issue. I think we are missing the point
:09:41. > :09:47.entirely, actually, to tell you the truth. In a way, and I hate to say
:09:48. > :09:51.this, because it is a terrible thing to have your house inundated like
:09:52. > :09:56.this wherever you live, but in a way this is a good thing, because it
:09:57. > :10:01.should be an awful warning to what is going to happen increasingly in
:10:02. > :10:07.the future. Virtually all sensible scientific opinion is clear that we
:10:08. > :10:11.are undergoing climate change, that there is going to be increasingly
:10:12. > :10:14.chaotic weather around the world, overheating in some places like
:10:15. > :10:17.Australia, flooding in places like Bangladesh, which will kill
:10:18. > :10:23.thousands and thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people. And
:10:24. > :10:26.even in Britain the Thames Barrier is now inadequate for the purpose.
:10:27. > :10:34.Perhaps it would be good if Westminster were flooded. I don't
:10:35. > :10:38.know. But actually, quite seriously, it is shocking to blame any
:10:39. > :10:43.minister, or indeed the Environment Agency. The Environment Agency has
:10:44. > :10:46.certainly been underfunded, that is clear. Therefore, it could not
:10:47. > :10:51.respond in the way it should have done. I think it is regrettable that
:10:52. > :10:56.Chris Smith did not visit the places earlier, as its boss. I think there
:10:57. > :11:02.was a big mistake. But in a sense, one has to say that 1000 years ago
:11:03. > :11:06.we had King Canute. In a sense, David Cameron is looking like King
:11:07. > :11:11.Canute, looking at the waves which are inevitably going to come in. The
:11:12. > :11:15.sea level has risen. We know that there is measured heating. We know
:11:16. > :11:19.it is changing. And we need to do something about the next generation.
:11:20. > :11:23.For a long time, scientists have been saying, we must look at
:11:24. > :11:27.flooding. It's going to be one of the most serious consequences of
:11:28. > :11:31.heating. Not simply crops drying up, or the shortage of water. In some
:11:32. > :11:34.places there will be too much water, and we are seeing that at the
:11:35. > :11:39.moment. The trouble is that we cannot prove it is the case. But
:11:40. > :11:43.now, in a place that Lincolnshire, you are desperately vulnerable. You
:11:44. > :11:46.have already said that. One of the problem is, of course, is that we
:11:47. > :11:51.know from history that you cannot beat nature. If you take reclaim the
:11:52. > :11:59.land, nature may well try and reclaim it again, and that is a big
:12:00. > :12:07.problem. So many hands up, I don't know where to go. I would like to
:12:08. > :12:11.come back to the original question, and I appreciate everything that
:12:12. > :12:16.Lord Winston has said. But my concern is that nobody did come up
:12:17. > :12:22.to this part of the world. And on the night of December the 5th, 120
:12:23. > :12:33.homes were devastated in one tiny village. Can any of you name that
:12:34. > :12:39.village? Janice Atkinson. The reason they went to the south-east is
:12:40. > :12:43.because that where the Tory heartland is. I can name it, but I
:12:44. > :12:47.have it written down, so it would be cheating. Nobody would name it,
:12:48. > :12:50.because if you are right that nobody knew it was happening, nobody knew
:12:51. > :12:58.it was happening, and that 700,000 chickens died in a shared. And one
:12:59. > :13:04.of the hotels closed and has not been able to open again. You can
:13:05. > :13:07.name it? I can't, but I did read earlier. In December, there were
:13:08. > :13:13.debates in the House of Commons. They were not reporting it, but
:13:14. > :13:22.local MPs were raising these issues. Let's come back to the main
:13:23. > :13:28.question. We have an environmental agency. They are the largest
:13:29. > :13:33.employer of the whole of Europe. So what were they doing? They were not
:13:34. > :13:38.dredging the Thames because they are frightened of upsetting the odd
:13:39. > :13:44.minute, the odd mollusc. It is actually right, Robert, it really
:13:45. > :13:48.promising us money am a blank promising us money am a blank
:13:49. > :13:54.cheque, and open cheque. We have ?1.2 trillion of debt. Where is the
:13:55. > :13:58.money going to come from? This government and the government before
:13:59. > :14:04.this present coalition are spending money on useless wind farms. 1000
:14:05. > :14:09.million pounds has been spent on useless wind farms. Coming up on the
:14:10. > :14:13.train, just a few miles from here you have a very rich landowner and
:14:14. > :14:16.he has invested in hundreds of the wind farms. And the reason why is
:14:17. > :14:22.because there is a vested interest in this. It has become an industry,
:14:23. > :14:25.the climate change industry. That man is creaming off hundreds of
:14:26. > :14:31.thousands of pounds of taxpayers money. That is lowing come families
:14:32. > :14:35.and pensioners. That man is David Cameron's father-in-law and I think
:14:36. > :14:41.that is disgusting. -- low income families. If we had invested in
:14:42. > :14:45.flood defences and dredged the rivers, we would not be in this
:14:46. > :14:49.mess. I would say to you, the reason why it has not been reported, what
:14:50. > :14:52.happened to people up here, is because of the London centric media
:14:53. > :14:56.and the Tory heartland. They are all running around in their wellies in
:14:57. > :15:04.the Somerset Levels trying to shore up their votes, not to shore up your
:15:05. > :15:08.rivers. You are not blaming gay marriage for the God's retribution
:15:09. > :15:13.from the floods? I have never held that position. It was never UKIP's
:15:14. > :15:21.position? He was a Tory. He was a Tory? No, he was a Tory... So were
:15:22. > :15:27.you, weren't you? You can never tell which party they are in! As soon as
:15:28. > :15:31.he stepped over to UKIP, and all of a sudden, the old parties are all
:15:32. > :15:35.over us. Chris's party has got a unit that is dealing with UKIP at
:15:36. > :15:40.the moment. They should be dealing with the policies. Alright. Can I
:15:41. > :15:43.return to flooding? There will be people watching this programme
:15:44. > :15:49.worried that their house is going to flood. I think it is a serious issue
:15:50. > :15:54.that deserves serious attention. I disagree with Janice about wind
:15:55. > :15:58.farms. All of you do! If you take Robert seriously, who is the most
:15:59. > :16:04.distinguished scientist on this panel, and if therefore you think it
:16:05. > :16:11.is likely or even very possible that climate change is caused by man-made
:16:12. > :16:15.emissions and that climate change is contributing to these terrible
:16:16. > :16:18.events that we are seeing, then having renewable energy to generate
:16:19. > :16:24.our electricity is a good thing. It is a good thing that we are moving
:16:25. > :16:27.down that route. I agree. I want to disagree with another point. I don't
:16:28. > :16:34.think dredging is always the answer. There are places where, as Richard
:16:35. > :16:38.Benyon, a former Conservative Minister, I think he was a very good
:16:39. > :16:44.Environment Minister. One of the things that he was saying this week
:16:45. > :16:50.was - there are many places where, if you dredge, you will be doing
:16:51. > :16:55.dramatic damage. You didn't want to set yourself up as a professional...
:16:56. > :16:58.He said that! You don't mind? I'm saying that I think you have to have
:16:59. > :17:03.different responses in different places and that is why you need...
:17:04. > :17:08.It is also maintenance of the hedges, of the plains. It wasn't
:17:09. > :17:13.just dredging. Let's hear more from our audience. Lord Smith said that
:17:14. > :17:23.Government funding is only available if you get 800% economic return on
:17:24. > :17:27.money spent. ?8 for the ?1. That is probably why the Thames easily
:17:28. > :17:32.meets, the Thames Valley meets that criteria. We, in the rural
:17:33. > :17:36.communities, don't. We get 50% less Government funding than urban
:17:37. > :17:42.communities. Even in this situation, we get kicked in the teeth and say
:17:43. > :17:49.because you don't give us enough return on investment, you don't
:17:50. > :17:56.deserve help. OK. Hold on. The man with the beard? Given the risk of
:17:57. > :18:03.flooding and that very likely there will be - we can't guarantee funding
:18:04. > :18:08.in the future, do you think it might be negligent, or irresponsible of
:18:09. > :18:13.local authorities to grant permission for housing to be
:18:14. > :18:21.developed on floodplains? Do you think that ought to stop? Or it
:18:22. > :18:27.should be... ? I think there may be - you may have to design - you might
:18:28. > :18:32.be able to design housing to be able to be not so affected by flooding.
:18:33. > :18:38.The lady in the front? I was going to say our council is about to give
:18:39. > :18:41.planning permission for 60,000 homes on a floodplain. What will happen if
:18:42. > :18:47.they get flooded? Are they going to be able to get insurance? The
:18:48. > :18:51.council knows it's floodplain? Of course they do! It is under water
:18:52. > :19:03.every winter because of the snow and the rain! You can go behind Tescos
:19:04. > :19:08.and... Right here? Yes. You, Sir? North Lincs Council are not keen on
:19:09. > :19:13.that but there's very little planning criteria that we can avoid
:19:14. > :19:18.doing it. Going back... Are you on the council? Yes. You can't say no
:19:19. > :19:23.because you get appealed and it is turned down? The appeals have cost
:19:24. > :19:28.us ?400,000 when we have tried to stop them. That is not for flooding.
:19:29. > :19:34.We tried to stop things. Going back to the flooding in South Ferriby, I
:19:35. > :19:38.was down there, I got my feet wet and was there for five days
:19:39. > :19:44.afterwards trying to help people. It was a tragedy. I came across a guy
:19:45. > :19:49.in a foot of water in his slippers who joyfully told me I could have
:19:50. > :19:53.done without this, I'm just back from hospital, I have had my first
:19:54. > :19:59.chemotherapy. It was devastating. However, I do feel - and I will not
:20:00. > :20:03.be popular - in 1953, when the flood defences were not as good as they
:20:04. > :20:07.are now, and we were flooded by a flood that was not as serious as the
:20:08. > :20:14.one that we have just had, 300 people were killed, 300-plus people.
:20:15. > :20:20.Thankfully, nobody has been seriously injured or killed, apart
:20:21. > :20:28.from 75,000 chickens, 45 sheep and a dog. Now, in looking at it, and I am
:20:29. > :20:31.going to give a plug to the Environment Agency, the Environment
:20:32. > :20:36.Agency invested a lot of money because we have a haven that comes
:20:37. > :20:40.in, which was the old harbour into Barton. I was looking over that
:20:41. > :20:45.haven. They did a big civil engineering job there and it was
:20:46. > :20:51.within six inches of the top of it. I was head and shoulders above the
:20:52. > :20:55.grass bank and I was on tip-toes looking over the flood defence. You
:20:56. > :21:01.look like you are about 6ft 6in tall? I am. We would have lost 1,000
:21:02. > :21:06.houses in Barton. Without that? If that defence hadn't been there. We
:21:07. > :21:11.lost two. Tragic - and I have met both the families and I have been to
:21:12. > :21:15.the families with the local MP. OK. That is true in other parts of the
:21:16. > :21:23.country. The previous Government spent lots of money after the 2007
:21:24. > :21:26.floods. You cut the money? No. Let's not have a partisan discussion,
:21:27. > :21:31.Chris. There are people whose lives are under threat here. It is... If
:21:32. > :21:35.you don't spend enough money, you won't be able to maintain the
:21:36. > :21:40.resilience for the future. The shocking thing is, I was there and
:21:41. > :21:45.there was nothing we could do when that flood came over apart from run
:21:46. > :21:49.away, just like in Bangladesh. The advantage we had that the next day,
:21:50. > :21:52.and the following days, we had the infrastructure to go in there and
:21:53. > :22:01.help people and we had enough people in the area to also help people. We
:22:02. > :22:06.must move on to another question. I have six solutions to the problem.
:22:07. > :22:11.It will take 60 seconds? Very quickly. We need to do this. We are
:22:12. > :22:15.looking so short-term. In the longer term, I think we have to invest in
:22:16. > :22:19.nuclear power, we have to understand carbon capture, I think we need to
:22:20. > :22:22.look at renewable energy which will include wind farms, though you have
:22:23. > :22:27.a problem on this coast moving them in from the sea. We all need to save
:22:28. > :22:33.energy and save water from our taps. Simple things like that. I think it
:22:34. > :22:39.is not just housing - housing brings roads, schools, hospitals, concrete
:22:40. > :22:43.in gardens, so there is no run-off. Most importantly of all, we need to
:22:44. > :22:49.engage globally. Unless we do that, we are not going to solve the
:22:50. > :22:54.problem. OK. APPLAUSE
:22:55. > :23:00.So, do join in tonight's debate by text or Twitter. You can follow us
:23:01. > :23:09.at www.bbc.co.uk/questiontime. If you are texting, 83981. Stuart Maw,
:23:10. > :23:14.please? Are the British establishment trying to scare the
:23:15. > :23:20.Scots into voting to stay in the UK by refusing to let them keep the
:23:21. > :23:24.pound? What is your view? Well, I think Scotland are entitled to the
:23:25. > :23:31.pound as much as England are, as we are down here. We all share it. And
:23:32. > :23:34.I just think for once, you see it is very rare, all the parties seem to
:23:35. > :23:38.be coming together for once. It would be nice to see it more often.
:23:39. > :23:45.The Labour Party, the Conservative Party - or the Coalition - are all
:23:46. > :23:50.coming together to bully the Scots into voting to stay with the UK.
:23:51. > :23:57.Cristina Odone? Is it bullying? It did look like that when you had
:23:58. > :24:02.Danny Alexander, George Osborne and Ed Balls ganging up and, as you
:24:03. > :24:09.said, a political unity that the floods somehow didn't give rise to.
:24:10. > :24:14.But I also have to say - I think the Scots are not going to put up with
:24:15. > :24:18.it. The Scots are used to having a pound that most of my shopkeepers in
:24:19. > :24:24.London won't accept. They are not going to be scared of being bullied
:24:25. > :24:31.over the currency. Whether in the end it is a good thing for the more
:24:32. > :24:35.serious question of will Scotland break away, be independent, will
:24:36. > :24:40.Holyrood detach itself from Westminster? I'm not convinced. I
:24:41. > :24:46.think a United Kingdom is a better kingdom.
:24:47. > :24:49.APPLAUSE Robert Winston, you are a politician
:24:50. > :24:55.as well as a scientist. You watch these things. Do you think this is
:24:56. > :24:59.an attempt to scare the Scots? Or is it a serious - or do they mean it?
:25:00. > :25:07.David Cameron has been remarkably altruistic. It's in his interests
:25:08. > :25:17.that Scotland does succeed. It would - that would - don't you think so?
:25:18. > :25:22.Make it easier? I disagree. Sorry. Having said that, to be serious for
:25:23. > :25:26.a moment, I think one of the concerns that I have - I think we
:25:27. > :25:30.are right to stay together and say you can't have bits of the United
:25:31. > :25:33.Kingdom that you want to have and not other bits. If you have the
:25:34. > :25:39.pound, you have responsibility for interest rates, you have
:25:40. > :25:43.responsibility for currency control, and if the Scots want to go it
:25:44. > :25:48.alone, it is up to them to have their own border controls and their
:25:49. > :25:52.own currency. It won't be in their interests to join the euro. What
:25:53. > :26:00.currency will they have? Not the dollar. Maybe they should have the
:26:01. > :26:03.bit coin. You, Sir? Do you think the establishment in Westminster is
:26:04. > :26:10.trying to bully the Scots into voting no? I think they have played
:26:11. > :26:14.right into Alex Salmond's and the SNP's hands. They have stirred a
:26:15. > :26:18.hornet's nest up there north of the border. It's almost - it is going to
:26:19. > :26:23.backfire against them. The Scots will vote yes for independence now.
:26:24. > :26:28.It is that big. Simply because they feel bullied? Yes, absolutely. The
:26:29. > :26:32.Scots, we know what they are like. They are rebellious. They don't
:26:33. > :26:38.particularly like us. Especially not the Tories. I was up there a few
:26:39. > :26:40.days ago and they are really - a Tory Government - the next
:26:41. > :26:45.Government will be Labour. That will be too late. I think being in
:26:46. > :26:49.September, they will vote independence for sure. I will come
:26:50. > :26:53.back to you. Damian Green, do you think there is an animosity towards
:26:54. > :26:59.the Tory Party in particular, which makes this a counterproductive thing
:27:00. > :27:05.to have done? I disagree with all of that. Robert's right and I will make
:27:06. > :27:08.myself unpopular by speaking in praise of politicians and political
:27:09. > :27:12.parties. Everyone assumes political parties are only in it for their own
:27:13. > :27:18.narrow self-interest. It is clearly in the party's own interest, the
:27:19. > :27:21.Conservative Party, for Scotland and its dozens of Labour MPs and its one
:27:22. > :27:27.Conservative MP to break away. We are campaigning as hard as we can,
:27:28. > :27:30.absolutely united party to skeep Scotland in the United Kingdom -- to
:27:31. > :27:33.skeep Scotland in the United Kingdom. We think it is right for
:27:34. > :27:36.Scotland. Anyone who says politicians are only in it for
:27:37. > :27:40.themselves should consider that and Robert, as a member of the Labour
:27:41. > :27:43.Party, is very good. The Prime Minister is not going up to
:27:44. > :27:47.Scotland? He is. The Cabinet is going up to Scotland shortly. He is
:27:48. > :27:52.not going to debate with the Scottish Nationals? Nor should he.
:27:53. > :27:56.Why? Only the Scots have a vote. The debate needs to be between the two
:27:57. > :27:59.campaigns in Scotland, between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling. I
:28:00. > :28:05.don't think the Scots will feel bullied by this. I also think the
:28:06. > :28:09.Scots will be far too sensible to vote to separate from the rest of
:28:10. > :28:12.the United Kingdom. It's in Scotland's interest as well. This is
:28:13. > :28:17.a reality that if you are a different country, you can't say we
:28:18. > :28:21.are going to have a say in your currency. And you can have different
:28:22. > :28:24.sovereign countries that come together and share a currency - and
:28:25. > :28:30.we have seen it in the euro. That has caused a lot of strains,
:28:31. > :28:35.particularly for smaller countries and, in effect, the Alex Salmond
:28:36. > :28:39.plan would be to impose that kind of thing on everyone in the rest of
:28:40. > :28:43.Britain as well. We would have two different countries trying to run a
:28:44. > :28:47.currency. It's much more difficult to run that in the interests of both
:28:48. > :28:48.countries. I think it is fundamentally undemocratic. If you
:28:49. > :28:52.want to do that sort of thing, which fundamentally undemocratic. If you
:28:53. > :28:56.has a huge effect on everyone in England, Wales and Northern Ireland,
:28:57. > :29:03.England, Wales and Northern Ireland should have a vote on this as well.
:29:04. > :29:07.APPLAUSE What kind of vote would you give
:29:08. > :29:10.England, Wales and Northern Ireland, one that prevented Scotland becoming
:29:11. > :29:16.independent if it chose to? Scotland... It would go to war if
:29:17. > :29:21.you do that! If what Scotland is saying is that we want to run your
:29:22. > :29:24.currency as well, then, clearly, we should have a say as well. Only in
:29:25. > :29:30.those circumstances. Alright. I go back to you, Sir. I'm sitting on the
:29:31. > :29:34.fence, really. It was my question. As a half Scot, my mother is
:29:35. > :29:38.Scottish, my dad is English, I can understand where the Scots are
:29:39. > :29:41.coming from if they do vote to go independent because they don't vote
:29:42. > :29:46.for Conservatives in Scotland but yet are always run by Conservatives.
:29:47. > :29:49.That - if I was living in Scotland, that would be my reason to go
:29:50. > :29:59.independent. Irrespective of any other idea. Janice Atkinson, what do
:30:00. > :30:05.you think of today's action from all three main parties, and UKIP as
:30:06. > :30:09.well, or not? What has UKIP said? We can't keep the pound. He actually
:30:10. > :30:13.sees his future in Europe, so let him have the euro and we will see
:30:14. > :30:18.how far he gets. We believe we are stronger together, we are Better
:30:19. > :30:21.Together. When they have their referendum, and they are lucky,
:30:22. > :30:26.because we are being denied a referendum. David Cameron has agreed
:30:27. > :30:32.to give them a referendum but will not give us a referendum on Europe.
:30:33. > :30:35.We do not actually believe cast iron Dave on that one because he has
:30:36. > :30:39.promised it before. But at least they are having their referendum.
:30:40. > :30:44.When we have our referendum, and I hope we do in 2017, and we will have
:30:45. > :30:47.a Parliamentary referendum next year, and it will come down to the
:30:48. > :30:51.economy and it will come down to jobs. Those are the two main thing
:30:52. > :30:56.is people worry about, so they will have their say. I think the Scots
:30:57. > :31:03.are a canny lot and they will vote to stay in, because together we are
:31:04. > :31:08.stronger. When they are on about what currency Scotland can use,
:31:09. > :31:14.would they meet the criteria for entering the euro? Has anyone looked
:31:15. > :31:17.at that? I don't know the specific answer to that question but it
:31:18. > :31:20.almost certainly wouldn't be immediately. There is no guarantee
:31:21. > :31:25.they would be allowed to join the European Union. I note that your
:31:26. > :31:30.name is Stewart. There is quite a lot of Scott in you, and also in me
:31:31. > :31:34.as well. My brother always used to say he was half Welsh, half English,
:31:35. > :31:39.half Scottish, because he wasn't very good at maths! I just feel we
:31:40. > :31:46.are all part of the same thing, aren't we? Emotionally, I disagree.
:31:47. > :31:49.I don't think it will boil down to economics and things like that. I
:31:50. > :31:52.think it will boil down to the emotion of it all. What about the
:31:53. > :31:57.tactic of George Osborne going to Edinburgh and his views being
:31:58. > :32:01.endorsed by Ed Walls, for instance? I think you have to lay out the
:32:02. > :32:07.facts. You cannot have an independent country where you are
:32:08. > :32:11.expecting England to prop up the Scottish banks if the banks go
:32:12. > :32:18.under, which is what the Bank of England, presumably, would have to
:32:19. > :32:22.do. We have ?1.2 trillion of debt. Exactly. So I think it is perfectly
:32:23. > :32:27.legitimate to simply lay out the facts, and that is what has happened
:32:28. > :32:34.today. I hope you are wrong, sir. The Scots I know are taking this
:32:35. > :32:38.whole issue very seriously. It would be an enormous step into the dark, I
:32:39. > :32:48.think. This is one of many, many issues they are going to vote on.
:32:49. > :32:52.Didn't the Bank of England prop up the Irish banks when they went
:32:53. > :32:58.under? They did, didn't they? ?7 billion. Is that right, when the
:32:59. > :33:04.Irish banks went under, we said it was in our interest to keep Ireland
:33:05. > :33:08.afloat. Which it was. Ireland is a significant trading partner.
:33:09. > :33:12.Wouldn't Scotland be in the same position? There is a difference
:33:13. > :33:19.between propping up someone's banks and allowing them to run your
:33:20. > :33:23.currency. If Scotland wants to retain the English pound, as it
:33:24. > :33:28.were, and still have a say on interest rates, I think that would
:33:29. > :33:33.be inappropriate. The point about devaluation as well. It is just bad
:33:34. > :33:39.economics to say, we want to be independent but keep the old
:33:40. > :33:43.currency. The SNP still seem to be in denial about today's decision.
:33:44. > :33:45.When are they going to shut up whingeing and start deciding what
:33:46. > :33:51.they are going to do about it because the policy isn't going to
:33:52. > :33:54.change? You think it is up to the SNP. They still believe we will
:33:55. > :34:01.allow them to keep the pound. They have been told we will not. They
:34:02. > :34:06.don't believe it. It is a stand-off. They need to come up with plan B
:34:07. > :34:13.quickly. They just say they don't believe them. The Scottish people
:34:14. > :34:20.will decide, as they will in a referendum. Linda Lewis, please. Can
:34:21. > :34:26.a smoking ban in cars with children realistically be enforced? Agreed in
:34:27. > :34:30.the House of Commons, legislation to come, detailed legislation banning
:34:31. > :34:36.smoking in cars. Can it realistically be enforced? Janice,
:34:37. > :34:41.what do you think? Of course it can't. Is it wrong to smoke in a car
:34:42. > :34:47.with children? Absolutely. I am a libertarian. The only
:34:48. > :34:52.anti-libertarian streak I have in me, I am so anti-smoking. I hate
:34:53. > :34:57.smoking. I grew up in a house with two smokers and it made me ill. Both
:34:58. > :35:02.my parents smoked in the car. How do you get on with Nigel Farage? He
:35:03. > :35:11.never stops smoking. He is outside, I am inside. We don't have smoking
:35:12. > :35:15.in our cars. I hope you don't have children either! There is a serious
:35:16. > :35:18.point, how far do you go? We all know that if you are smoking or
:35:19. > :35:23.drinking in pregnancy it is a harmful to the baby. So is the next
:35:24. > :35:28.step down the line that actually we make that a criminal offence? Or
:35:29. > :35:31.when mums go to Iceland and start loading their cars with full fat,
:35:32. > :35:38.ready-made meals, do we make that illegal? If you think about policing
:35:39. > :35:45.and the strains on our policing at the moment, in this area you have
:35:46. > :35:48.violent crime rising. Your car crime is flat-lining. I would actually
:35:49. > :35:55.prefer the police appear to be getting on with solving serious
:35:56. > :35:59.crime and stopping violent crime. You are in favour of a legal ban on
:36:00. > :36:04.smoking in cars with children, or not? I would prefer not to be
:36:05. > :36:09.criminalised. We should be educating people. And tell me, how are we
:36:10. > :36:13.going to police this? Robert Winston, is it proven that smoking
:36:14. > :36:18.near children gives children all of these diseases? I am rather proud of
:36:19. > :36:22.the fact that this amendment started in the House of Lords and I, among
:36:23. > :36:26.others, voted in favour of this plan. We recognise that it is
:36:27. > :36:32.difficult to enforce and might be impossible. But, to be honest, the
:36:33. > :36:35.evidence that it really damages children in general, passive
:36:36. > :36:39.smoking, is not quite as good as is made out. It probably does, but
:36:40. > :36:43.there is not long-term evidence to clearly demonstrate that. But I
:36:44. > :36:47.would say that smoking in a vehicle when you are driving it under any
:36:48. > :36:57.circumstances, with or without a child, is dangerous. You were just
:36:58. > :36:59.ban smoking in cars, period. The moment you are distracted, you drop
:37:00. > :37:03.the cigarette on your trousers or skirt and there is a smell of
:37:04. > :37:07.burning. You are distracted and a danger to other road users. If the
:37:08. > :37:12.child in the back is fractious as well, you are doubly dangerous to
:37:13. > :37:16.other road users. I think that is a real problem. You are not saying it
:37:17. > :37:22.is a danger to children's lungs. You are saying it is bad practice when
:37:23. > :37:27.you are driving. I am saying it probably is bad for children's
:37:28. > :37:32.lungs. Most doctors are certain it is bad for children's lungs but the
:37:33. > :37:35.clear evidence is not quite as clear as was stated in Parliament. It is
:37:36. > :37:39.certainly not good to smoke around children, for lots of reasons, not
:37:40. > :37:44.just the damage to their lungs but the habit and the copying, because
:37:45. > :37:48.children mimic their elders. I think whether it is restrictive or not and
:37:49. > :37:52.a law that is difficult to enforce, nowadays, with photography on
:37:53. > :37:57.motorways and roads generally, it is very easy to actually pick up people
:37:58. > :38:01.who are smoking in cars. You could actually see that. I think if you
:38:02. > :38:06.are at risk of prosecution, it may not be such a massive amount of
:38:07. > :38:14.police time after all. It is more surveillance, Big Brother watching
:38:15. > :38:20.us. We are watched in our cars. Damian Green, what was your view? I
:38:21. > :38:25.think smoking in cars in front of your children is disgusting and
:38:26. > :38:31.stupid and you shouldn't do it, mostly for the reason of setting an
:38:32. > :38:35.example. I take Robert's view on medical evidence. I was interested
:38:36. > :38:40.in that. But you shouldn't do it. It's a bad thing to do. But I voted
:38:41. > :38:43.against the ban, one, because I'm the police minister and therefore
:38:44. > :38:46.spend a lot of my time worrying that the police are doing what most
:38:47. > :38:51.people want them to be doing most of the time, and so just piling new
:38:52. > :38:54.criminal offences onto the statute book, meaning the police have two
:38:55. > :38:58.enforce them means, whether it is a huge amount of time or a small
:38:59. > :39:01.amount of time, that means less police time available. In violent
:39:02. > :39:05.crime and that kind of thing. And also because I think there are a
:39:06. > :39:08.large range of activities that I personally disapprove of and wish
:39:09. > :39:12.people didn't do and certainly don't want them to do anywhere near me, or
:39:13. > :39:17.that society as a whole doesn't like people to do, but which we still
:39:18. > :39:26.shouldn't make criminal offences. Because I think the state interferes
:39:27. > :39:31.too much in our lives. The lady in the second row, who asked the
:39:32. > :39:35.question. I am wholeheartedly in favour of the ban and even if it
:39:36. > :39:39.can't be enforced, any small steps that make people think about their
:39:40. > :39:42.actions have to be really good. I am slightly cynical about the fact that
:39:43. > :39:47.the government is trying to bring it in. We are aware that it is down to
:39:48. > :39:52.education. This is the government trying to close down sure start
:39:53. > :39:57.centres, where the root of education for families is.
:39:58. > :40:02.I would like to reiterate that point. Just because it is hard to
:40:03. > :40:05.implement, surely that does not mean you should not implement it. It
:40:06. > :40:10.would just make people think twice before they smoke, if a policeman is
:40:11. > :40:17.to see them and maybe they might get caught. The problem is not to,
:40:18. > :40:23.obviously, implement it. You need to make people think twice before they
:40:24. > :40:30.start smoking. The problem is, and I am a parliamentarian, so I respect
:40:31. > :40:36.the will of Parliament. I was on the losing side of this vote, so we will
:40:37. > :40:39.go ahead with it. But the idea that you pass something into law and then
:40:40. > :40:44.it does not matter if it is enforced or not is not true. Because if in
:40:45. > :40:47.three years time nobody has been prosecuted for smoking in their car,
:40:48. > :40:52.two things will happen. One, people will start doing it again. Secondly,
:40:53. > :40:56.people would think, they are passing laws that they do not enforce, which
:40:57. > :41:01.brings the rule of law into disrepute, and that is a bad thing
:41:02. > :41:04.as well. But the law presently requires people seated in the
:41:05. > :41:09.back-seat of a car to wear a seat belt. I've never seen anybody be
:41:10. > :41:12.prosecuted for not doing that, but I think now many more people wear a
:41:13. > :41:16.seat belt in the back of their car than used to before we changed the
:41:17. > :41:22.law, so it must be a good change in the law. Secondly, I think probably
:41:23. > :41:26.in my constituency, a former mining constituency, lots of people had bad
:41:27. > :41:30.chest complaints from working in the minds, but the single most important
:41:31. > :41:33.thing I did as an MP for the health of people in my constituency was
:41:34. > :41:38.voting to ban smoking in public places, because it means fewer
:41:39. > :41:43.people smoke, fewer people will die of smoking-related illnesses. The
:41:44. > :41:47.third thing I would say is that I remember my mum. She smoked like a
:41:48. > :41:52.chimney. She never stopped, all day, every day. The worst place for me
:41:53. > :41:56.was in the car, because it was a really small place. She would
:41:57. > :41:59.pretend the cigarette was outside the window but it always managed to
:42:00. > :42:08.blow straight back into the car, and I hated it. It is a sort of set the
:42:09. > :42:13.children free moment, I think. I fully agree with Lord Winston about
:42:14. > :42:16.smoking in cars. People have been fined for eating apples, chocolate
:42:17. > :42:21.bars and things like that. If you drop an apple, it is not a problem.
:42:22. > :42:25.I used to smoke when I was younger and I have dropped cigarettes in
:42:26. > :42:32.cars, and blind panic sets in. It is not a bad idea at all. You know
:42:33. > :42:39.what, I don't have a car. I used to smoke. I no longer smoke, but I
:42:40. > :42:43.still didn't like this. I just don't want laws telling me what I can do
:42:44. > :42:53.or not do with my children in the car that we don't have. I feel
:42:54. > :42:59.really uncomfortable with it. I think parents, yes, of course we
:43:00. > :43:02.must promote anti-smoking education. Not legislation but
:43:03. > :43:06.education. Tell parents again and again, don't smoke when you're
:43:07. > :43:12.pregnant, don't smoke anywhere near your child, passive smoking is bad.
:43:13. > :43:15.But a law to do this! It is as if the government were telling us that
:43:16. > :43:21.the government is a better parent than we are. And do you know what,
:43:22. > :43:27.do you know what, I don't think it is. When we have children in care of
:43:28. > :43:33.the government, those children are not doing well. Care homes are
:43:34. > :43:39.terrible places. Those reform institutions, where young offenders
:43:40. > :43:45.go, they are terrible, abysmal. At is where self-harming youths and
:43:46. > :43:48.suicides are skyrocketing. I don't think government is always best when
:43:49. > :43:55.it comes to our children. I think we are. Now, what do you want? Thank
:43:56. > :43:58.you. The law also presently says that if children are seated under a
:43:59. > :44:02.certain age in the back of a car, they have to be in a children's
:44:03. > :44:07.seat. Would you remove that legal requirement, because that is the
:44:08. > :44:13.logic of your position? It is not the logic of my position. I think
:44:14. > :44:17.there is a certain room for legal interference, but let's not
:44:18. > :44:21.interfere at every step in every second of our lives. What about a
:44:22. > :44:28.ban on children smoking in front of their parents in the car? I wish we
:44:29. > :44:32.could do that. The gentleman in the tie? Is the slight loss of liberty
:44:33. > :44:38.imposed by the Government not justified in the safety which is
:44:39. > :44:44.ensured of the children in the car? Absolutely. I don't buy it. You look
:44:45. > :44:49.like my stepson when you said that! Last point from you, up there? I
:44:50. > :44:56.don't understand why anyone would defend the right to be able to smoke
:44:57. > :45:00.in front of a child in the car. We have ten minutes left. I take a
:45:01. > :45:05.question from Paul Foster. Should the UK take its lead from the Swiss
:45:06. > :45:10.when renegotiating its relationship with Europe? Switzerland is not part
:45:11. > :45:21.of th EU. But it has close relationships with the EU, which
:45:22. > :45:24.involves accepting a lot of EU practices and they decided they
:45:25. > :45:31.weren't going to do this any longer and they are going to have to
:45:32. > :45:37.renegotiate it with the EU. Should t UK take a lead? What do you think?
:45:38. > :45:42.Should we have a referendum on that? Well, UKIP believes we should have a
:45:43. > :45:48.referendum on a lot of things. What do you think of the Swiss example?
:45:49. > :45:51.Brilliant. They have control over their borders and financial services
:45:52. > :45:56.industry. They have control over their tax. They are rich. Oh, to be
:45:57. > :46:01.like the Swiss! There is a serious point here. Is that not a serious
:46:02. > :46:06.point? Brussels won't allow them to keep that vote. Brussels will
:46:07. > :46:10.overturn it because actually it's against the single market and part
:46:11. > :46:15.of being part of the single market is open borders, completely open
:46:16. > :46:19.borders uncontrolled immigration. So they voted against it. Like the
:46:20. > :46:24.French were told, and the Irish, when they voted no, they didn't want
:46:25. > :46:29.certain things. They were told to go back and get the right vote. Vivian
:46:30. > :46:37.Reading was over in the week, she thinks that we are a bit thick to
:46:38. > :46:40.have our own referendum because YOU don't understand the real issues
:46:41. > :46:49.facing us at the moment. She said 710% of our -- 70% of our laws come
:46:50. > :46:53.from Brussels. Basically, it's made them redundant, or maybe that is a
:46:54. > :46:56.good thing. You can have a referendum on the things that you
:46:57. > :47:03.want. To be like the Swiss? Absolutely. But the Swiss have
:47:04. > :47:11.accepted a lot of the EU legislation, haven't they? They have
:47:12. > :47:15.to. And you think that they won't be allowed to opt out of this? It is
:47:16. > :47:18.fundamental. The EU will say if you do that, you are out of the deal, we
:47:19. > :47:23.close the deal? Absolutely. You would like to see Switzerland close
:47:24. > :47:28.the deal? You know what, Norway are contesting it now. I think you will
:47:29. > :47:32.see a sort of complete waterfall effect here and I hope they do. The
:47:33. > :47:39.people need to take power and sovereign Parliaments need to take
:47:40. > :47:42.back power. Chris Bryant? I don't want to be like the Swiss. They have
:47:43. > :47:46.to implement everything that the EU comes up with and they don't get to
:47:47. > :47:51.sit at the table to decide on what the rules are. So, it is a nonsense
:47:52. > :47:56.to say we should be like the Swiss. No, I don't want to say that
:47:57. > :47:59.Europeans shouldn't be allowed to come into this country and that
:48:00. > :48:02.there should be some kind of cap on the number of Europeans that come
:48:03. > :48:07.into this country from other members of the EU. Guess which is the
:48:08. > :48:13.country that has most nationals living elsewhere in Europe? The
:48:14. > :48:16.United Kingdom. 2.6 million Brits living elsewhere. Now, yes, some of
:48:17. > :48:21.those are retired people who are wealthy and own their own homes in
:48:22. > :48:25.Spain. Some of them are over 65 and using the NHS for free, something
:48:26. > :48:30.that they never contributed to. So, I want, I believe passionately in
:48:31. > :48:34.Europe. I think in the end, I know some people dismiss and they say
:48:35. > :48:37.that the only reason we have had peace in a continent that has been
:48:38. > :48:42.at war for centuries and centuries is because of NATO. I don't believe
:48:43. > :48:46.that. It is. It is because people sit round a table and negotiate
:48:47. > :48:49.their way to peace these days and that's partly because of the
:48:50. > :48:54.European Union. I tell you one other thing. When was it that Britain
:48:55. > :48:58.became so pathetic that we said oh, we are worried about other people
:48:59. > :49:02.coming here, we are not worried about what opportunities there might
:49:03. > :49:05.be for us to make our way in France and Germany and Spain and Italy, to
:49:06. > :49:12.make big businesses in other countries? What is the country that
:49:13. > :49:15.invests most here? France. We should be - we should seize hold of our
:49:16. > :49:19.membership of the EU and say yes, we believe in it, we are committed to
:49:20. > :49:27.it. We are not going to renege on it because it's been good for this
:49:28. > :49:35.country. You, Sir? Isn't this just a matter that the Swiss have showed us
:49:36. > :49:42.what true democracy is? It's the will of the people. Hold on. What do
:49:43. > :49:47.you make of the UKIP position? Are you a supporter of UKIP? I'm not. I
:49:48. > :49:53.also think that there is something else that is much more sinister that
:49:54. > :50:00.has motivated the Swiss. It's this fear, this alarm about the other and
:50:01. > :50:05.it's the person who comes in into your country and is taking your job,
:50:06. > :50:10.is taking your benefits, is taking your services and this is what
:50:11. > :50:16.appeals to UKIP. They have the same narrative. I think you can protect
:50:17. > :50:23.your identity, you can protect your legacy, your heritage without making
:50:24. > :50:28.other cultures into a threat to your happiness. I think we are sitting
:50:29. > :50:34.here in Scunthorpe and we are thinking about the biggest employer
:50:35. > :50:42.around here, Tata Steel. It's Indian. Let's not forget. Immigrants
:50:43. > :50:48.of all kinds are either giving us incredible opportunities like Tata
:50:49. > :50:57.Steel, or working their somethings off and guess what? Claiming less
:50:58. > :51:02.than 45% of the benefits and tax credits that the average domestic
:51:03. > :51:08.worker does. So, I think there's something really sinister and it's
:51:09. > :51:12.not the cuckoo clock, it's a kind of inherent xenophobia. This is what
:51:13. > :51:19.appeals to UKIP and it is what appeals... OK. You were shaking your
:51:20. > :51:25.head when Cristina Odone was talking. You don't agree with her?
:51:26. > :51:29.If you are referring to Vivian Reading's figures, she is using the
:51:30. > :51:33.figures about the amount of benefit being claimed by immigrants, not the
:51:34. > :51:38.percentage of immigrants claiming benefit. What do you think of - hold
:51:39. > :51:43.on a second. What do you think of the main issue? The point isn't just
:51:44. > :51:47.about immigrants and migrants, it is about us being able to make our own
:51:48. > :51:53.rules. It is about us not being dictated to by Brussels on all sorts
:51:54. > :51:59.of policies. Such as human rights, we are not allowed to get rid of
:52:00. > :52:03.terrorists. Which human right do you want to get rid of? We want to be
:52:04. > :52:07.able to get rid of a terrorist that is a risk to our country. It is not
:52:08. > :52:11.whether we can or can't, we should be able to make that decision
:52:12. > :52:16.ourselves. Wes are being dictated to by Brussels. -- we are being
:52:17. > :52:20.dictated to by Brussels. That is the human rights court. There are so
:52:21. > :52:24.many parts to this other than just the people coming to the country. We
:52:25. > :52:29.are talking about that. There are so many other things that are involved
:52:30. > :52:34.with being in the EU. The Swiss set a good example in your view?
:52:35. > :52:40.Absolutely. Do you agree with that? The woman there? My problem is that,
:52:41. > :52:45.of course, I'm not English, but I'm British. The problem is that over
:52:46. > :52:50.here, with negative propaganda by politicians, people are too scared
:52:51. > :52:53.about any other nation but this island. Whoever comes in is an
:52:54. > :52:59.intruder and that is not the fact. People come here to work and earn a
:53:00. > :53:08.good living. Absolutely. And pay taxes. We want the brightest and
:53:09. > :53:14.best from around the world. I'm quoted in the Times to say I want
:53:15. > :53:21.the best from India and China. It's sheer numbers. Propaganda... We
:53:22. > :53:26.need... I have to finish this. The negative propaganda, what it does
:53:27. > :53:30.is, even though I'm working as a doctor, in the street I will be
:53:31. > :53:36.called a lackey. That is wrong. You are very welcome to work here as a
:53:37. > :53:40.doctor. No matter what I'm doing for society, the society is doing for
:53:41. > :53:49.me, the baseline is we are scared of each other. Damian Green, you want
:53:50. > :53:53.to take issue with UKIP on this? I do. Your policy at the last election
:53:54. > :54:01.was for a five-year freeze for no immigration at all. Have you dropped
:54:02. > :54:05.that policy? Yes - well... I'm on the policy review committee. I no e
:54:06. > :54:11.what is happening. When we have got our policies, we will tell you.
:54:12. > :54:15.Good. Excellent. No, they don't have a policy on this. Yes, we do. You
:54:16. > :54:22.don't. I was the Immigration Minister for two-and-a-half years.
:54:23. > :54:29.Exactly! Can I explain? Britain benefits from immigration, it
:54:30. > :54:33.benefits from people coming in. I agree vment What gives rise to the
:54:34. > :54:36.fear, which gives rise to UKIP and other parties is when immigration is
:54:37. > :54:40.out of control. Yes. Ten years ago in this country, immigration was out
:54:41. > :54:46.of control. If you try and change a society too fast, then people get
:54:47. > :54:49.worried and that gives rise to unpleasant consequences. That is why
:54:50. > :54:54.we have instituted systems of controls, that is why we have had a
:54:55. > :54:59.cap on the number of work visas, that is why we have closed 700 bogus
:55:00. > :55:02.colleges so people can't come here pretending to be students when they
:55:03. > :55:07.are coming here to work. And it's a long-haul but the system is getting
:55:08. > :55:11.better. Controlled immigration is beneficial to this country. What do
:55:12. > :55:14.you say to the man in the centre, who said that the Swiss at least
:55:15. > :55:17.showed they are in control of their own policies and they have a vote on
:55:18. > :55:21.it and they decide and that is democratic? So do we. All those
:55:22. > :55:24.things I have just explained were passed through the British
:55:25. > :55:29.Parliament. They were put into power because we won a general election.
:55:30. > :55:33.You, there? I want to know how you define who the brightest and the
:55:34. > :55:37.best are. Surely that is opinion? You can't just say we are going to
:55:38. > :55:42.have the brightest and the best people here because you cannot judge
:55:43. > :55:45.that. Robert Winston? Whether someone has a job as a doctor
:55:46. > :55:52.doesn't mean they are a wonderful person. I'm not saying doctors
:55:53. > :56:00.aren't wonderful people. She maybe! -- may be! We have hugely benefitted
:56:01. > :56:08.from people like yourselves. I'm a bit concerned Damian about what you
:56:09. > :56:12.say. You have introduced the most restrictive Immigration Bill. There
:56:13. > :56:23.is one area that is of concern - the restriction of students coming into
:56:24. > :56:28.this country, which is an ?11 billion bill. The number of students
:56:29. > :56:31.has reduced because of all these bogus students. The number of
:56:32. > :56:38.university students coming into this country, which we want to see, has
:56:39. > :56:47.increased, so look beneath the aggregate figures. Robert, you have
:56:48. > :56:50.- we have 50 seconds left. Students are being put off to apply for
:56:51. > :56:55.university in our main universities. There is no doubt, we have the
:56:56. > :57:00.figures. It is massive. I come back to Switzerland. What Janice - she is
:57:01. > :57:03.out of touch. You would not want to be like the Swiss. They have a
:57:04. > :57:07.totally different system of government. First of all, there's
:57:08. > :57:11.part of Switzerland that would like to be in the EU, around Geneva,
:57:12. > :57:17.there is another part around Zurich that is opposed to Europe. That is
:57:18. > :57:21.the division. Secondly, of course, they have a multiplicity of little
:57:22. > :57:24.Parliaments that all sorts of referenda which we would never have
:57:25. > :57:31.on insignificant subjects. Most of the time, they don't really do much
:57:32. > :57:35.for really changing the Swiss mentality or the Swiss attitude. One
:57:36. > :57:38.of their problems is they haven't benefitted from immigration in the
:57:39. > :57:42.way that we have. It's been quite clear that they haven't. That's a
:57:43. > :57:45.major reason why I don't think we would want to be like the Swiss. 25%
:57:46. > :57:50.or more of Switzerland is immigrants? Yes, but you try and buy
:57:51. > :57:57.property in Switzerland, you try and deal with the - they have a huge
:57:58. > :58:02.problem with their currency. It's massively valued. I think they have
:58:03. > :58:07.very big problems. Alright. Let's leave it there. We have to stop,
:58:08. > :58:12.Chris. Our hour is up. Thank you all very much. Next week, we will be in
:58:13. > :58:21.Swindon with Question Time and we will have the novelist Janette
:58:22. > :58:26.Winterton. If you would like to come to either programme, Swindon or
:58:27. > :58:34.Newport, you can apply on our website, or you can ring. If you are
:58:35. > :58:37.listening to this on Radio Five Live, the debate goes on Question
:58:38. > :58:41.Time Extra Time. I would like to thank our panel very much. And all
:58:42. > :58:45.of you who came here to take part in this edition. Really great to see
:58:46. > :58:48.you. Thank you very much, indeed. From Scunthorpe, until next Thursday
:58:49. > :58:51.night, good night.