0:00:02 > 0:00:05Tonight we're in Barking in East London and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14Good evening to you at home.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Good evening to our audience here, who are going to put the
0:00:16 > 0:00:19questions to our panel, who don't know them
0:00:19 > 0:00:21until they hear them from their lips. On the panel,
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Conservative former Deputy Prime Minister Michael Heseltine,
0:00:24 > 0:00:26who was Defence Secretary during the Cold War,
0:00:26 > 0:00:31Labour's Shadow Work and Pension Secretary Rachel Reeves,
0:00:31 > 0:00:33Liberal Democrats' Simon Hughes,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36who became a Justice Minister in December,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38The Times columnist David Aaronovitch,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42the former Kremlin advisor Alexander Nekrassov,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46and the Daily Mail columnist Amanda Platell.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50APPLAUSE
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Thank you very much indeed.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01Our first question from Eddie McNally, please.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Is Russia too powerful, unpredictable
0:01:04 > 0:01:07and scary for Europe to deal with it in the way it's dealt with
0:01:07 > 0:01:08other countries in the past?
0:01:08 > 0:01:13DAVID REPEATS THE QUESTION
0:01:13 > 0:01:16Michael Heseltine.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21You can't possibly underestimate the risks and dangers in the Ukraine
0:01:21 > 0:01:24in recent events. It's unpredictable.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27And if there's one thing that is necessary,
0:01:27 > 0:01:29it is to lower the temperature and to try
0:01:29 > 0:01:34and resolve this matter by dialogue.
0:01:34 > 0:01:39Er... I don't think anyone knows how it will be resolved. How can I...?
0:01:39 > 0:01:42I'm not Ukrainian, I've never been there,
0:01:42 > 0:01:45how can I know how the thing will play out?
0:01:45 > 0:01:49But there is one thought that I would contribute to the
0:01:49 > 0:01:50answer of this question.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53I think that, in the West,
0:01:53 > 0:01:56we need to reappraise our relationships with Russia.
0:01:56 > 0:02:01If I look forward over the next 20, 30 years,
0:02:01 > 0:02:06the big dangers I see for our part of the world...
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Let's assume China were to become a belligerent world power...
0:02:09 > 0:02:12I don't think it will, but suppose it was.
0:02:12 > 0:02:14I would want Russia on our side.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17If you look at the southern borders of Russia,
0:02:17 > 0:02:22they are full of unstable, very ethnically divided countries.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24Endless difficulties.
0:02:24 > 0:02:29And surely we ought to have a degree of humility with the idea that
0:02:29 > 0:02:33military intervention, or something of that sort,
0:02:33 > 0:02:34is going to solve anything.
0:02:34 > 0:02:40If you take Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya...
0:02:40 > 0:02:43it's quite obvious that there are potential civil wars
0:02:43 > 0:02:45going on in those countries,
0:02:45 > 0:02:48which our intervention has done nothing to solve.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Russian intervention, however illegal,
0:02:51 > 0:02:53however questionable in the Ukraine,
0:02:53 > 0:02:59has actually created a position where bloodshed is not likely to
0:02:59 > 0:03:02flow within the country itself.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06And so I am frightened of the language which tries to push
0:03:06 > 0:03:10Russia...ever more remote,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13with bits of the Ukraine being attracted into the European Union,
0:03:13 > 0:03:17other bits of the Ukraine wanting to join Russia itself.
0:03:17 > 0:03:22You saw the result of the Ukrainian parliament today.
0:03:22 > 0:03:27And diplomacy, I think, for the West, for Europe particularly,
0:03:27 > 0:03:31is to reach out to Russia for some all-embracing,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34almost certainly economical settlement,
0:03:34 > 0:03:36which makes Russia feel secure.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41- Never forget... - Whose language are you objecting to?
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Well, I think that the reaction of the Americans today,
0:03:44 > 0:03:50of sanctions of the sort that they've imposed now, is presumptuous.
0:03:50 > 0:03:51And the British Government?
0:03:51 > 0:03:55The British Government is involved in European talks.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57But the last point I wanted to make about the Russians.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Never forget that it was Napoleon who came from France
0:04:00 > 0:04:04Hitler who came from Germany, and every Russian knows that.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08APPLAUSE
0:04:08 > 0:04:10David Aaronovitch.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14That would be a completely appropriate response
0:04:14 > 0:04:16if anyone had even remotely suggested
0:04:16 > 0:04:18invading Russia - nobody has.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20But let's just think about how the game's changed today.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22And remember before, as we do,
0:04:22 > 0:04:25that we stand guarantors under a 1994 agreement to the
0:04:25 > 0:04:27territorial integrity of Ukraine,
0:04:27 > 0:04:30and that means plus the Crimea today.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33The coup people, who took over in the Crimea
0:04:33 > 0:04:36when people stormed the parliament there,
0:04:36 > 0:04:38brought forward a referendum that was supposed
0:04:38 > 0:04:43to be that they themselves would be held on autonomy for Crimea
0:04:43 > 0:04:47on the 30th of March to the 16th of March - ten days away from now.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51On the same day, two Ukrainian...
0:04:51 > 0:04:55TV stations were closed down and two pro-Putin, pro-Kremlin
0:04:55 > 0:04:58TV stations opened up in their stead.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00That's a description, but the question is -
0:05:00 > 0:05:03is Russia too big and scary to be dealt with in the way that
0:05:03 > 0:05:06- Europe...?- It certainly is far too big and scary to be dealt
0:05:06 > 0:05:09with in the way that Lord Heseltine is suggesting for this reason.
0:05:09 > 0:05:14The leader of the Crimean pro-Russian group said when he
0:05:14 > 0:05:19was asked what he expected to happen as a result of this referendum was,
0:05:19 > 0:05:21"75% will vote yes."
0:05:21 > 0:05:24This is a de facto annexation of the territory...
0:05:24 > 0:05:28of a sovereign country with the agreement
0:05:28 > 0:05:31of Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin
0:05:31 > 0:05:33that we stand guarantor to the state,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36having suggested that we would stop it from happening.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39We can't solve this by invasion, but we certainly
0:05:39 > 0:05:41have a responsibility to the Ukrainians
0:05:41 > 0:05:43not to turn around and say,
0:05:43 > 0:05:46"In some 100 years' time, we might need you against the Chinese,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49"so we're going to turn a blind eye to the fact that you've taken
0:05:49 > 0:05:52"a big chunk of somebody else's country."
0:05:52 > 0:05:55I do have some thought about how it should be dealt with,
0:05:55 > 0:05:58and Ed Miliband and David Cameron have talked about some.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00We can talk about some of them later,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03but the one thing that we're not going to be able to do is say,
0:06:03 > 0:06:05"Vladimir Putin, well, you're a Russian.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07"This is what we expect from Russians
0:06:07 > 0:06:10"and we don't care that much. We're just going to let it happen."
0:06:10 > 0:06:11Alexander Nekrassov.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13Well...
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Alexander Nekrassov.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17Let's turn this question around.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20Can Russia trust the West?
0:06:20 > 0:06:23When the Cold War stopped, we Russians...
0:06:23 > 0:06:27well, our government, was assured by the West
0:06:27 > 0:06:30it's not going to push NATO borders to the east.
0:06:30 > 0:06:35We were assured definitely. Look what happened afterwards.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39NATO started to spread closer and closer to Russia.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43And this was not a friendly intent.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47Why, if the Cold War was over, NATO wanted to be closer to Russia?
0:06:47 > 0:06:48We don't understand that.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52Secondly, we are missing the point here,
0:06:52 > 0:06:57that there was a coup in Kiev which was supported by the EU.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59Let's not close our eyes to that,
0:06:59 > 0:07:04because EU politicians involved themselves in the so-called protests.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07They came over, they encouraged those protests.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11Now we know they were funded by the EU and the Americans.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14So to say that President Putin
0:07:14 > 0:07:19suddenly decided to invade Crimea for no reason...
0:07:19 > 0:07:21Are you saying Europe organised those protests
0:07:21 > 0:07:25and led to the downfall of the corrupt President Yanukovych?
0:07:25 > 0:07:31Excuse me. He was a democratically elected president
0:07:31 > 0:07:34and that was confirmed by the European Union observers
0:07:34 > 0:07:36and other observers.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39- Of course.- To say he was a corrupt...
0:07:39 > 0:07:41I can name several more countries...
0:07:41 > 0:07:44I'm sure. I'm sure you come from one.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE I can even say to you...
0:07:47 > 0:07:51that President Hollande is less popular than Yanukovych was.
0:07:51 > 0:07:56We are not saying, "Come on, French people, get rid of him."
0:07:56 > 0:07:57The point is this.
0:07:57 > 0:08:03When Ukraine refused to sign a free-association agreement
0:08:03 > 0:08:06with the EU, which was a bad agreement,
0:08:06 > 0:08:08believe me, I read it.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12Any sane government would have said no to the agreement.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16The Russian deal was better. There was money on the table. DAVID AARONOVITCH LAUGHS
0:08:16 > 0:08:19- Excuse me, but there was money on the table.- There was, yeah.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23Ukraine would not have survived with 800 million euros which was
0:08:23 > 0:08:25promised by the EU. Right?
0:08:25 > 0:08:30Suddenly, Yanukovych in a matter of days became illegal,
0:08:30 > 0:08:32corrupt and everything.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34Before the signing of that agreement,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38before it was still on the table, he was OK for European Union.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42- He was OK.- We get the point. You, sir, in the second row.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45- We'll come back to the argument.- I really think Alexander has a point.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47Can Russia trust the West?
0:08:47 > 0:08:49The way I sort of see it is,
0:08:49 > 0:08:54- I in no way condone what Russia has done in this situation...- But...
0:08:54 > 0:08:58Yeah, BUT...where are the West getting this presumption
0:08:58 > 0:09:04we have the right to sanction Russia for breaching international law
0:09:04 > 0:09:08when we participated in an illegal invasion of Iraq?
0:09:08 > 0:09:10APPLAUSE
0:09:10 > 0:09:14Amanda Platell. You heard the point he made.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18How can Russia trust the West?
0:09:18 > 0:09:20And I totally agree.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Tony Blair's legacy was that we have lost the moral authority
0:09:23 > 0:09:28to go into other countries. You look at the mess in Afghanistan and Iraq.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32I actually think David Cameron has judged this right.
0:09:32 > 0:09:37We do not want to see another British soldier, man or woman, with
0:09:37 > 0:09:41their boots on foreign soil trying to sort out someone else's problems.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45And coming back with their legs blown off. APPLAUSE
0:09:45 > 0:09:51And if I might just answer the original question.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55The thing that struck me about this whole dilemma at the moment,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58we have just announced that our defence budget
0:09:58 > 0:10:01has been so cut that it's unlikely we could defend our own country.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04Germany's has been cut, France's has been cut,
0:10:04 > 0:10:07and America announced last week that in their next plan
0:10:07 > 0:10:12they will have fewer troops than they had before the Second World War.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16How can we stand up to countries like Russia,
0:10:16 > 0:10:20who have increased their budgets and just announced that they have
0:10:20 > 0:10:24one of these long...these big missiles that can, you know, nuke us?
0:10:24 > 0:10:27It's like an ant biting on an alligator.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29What should you do, nothing?
0:10:29 > 0:10:33David Cameron is right to try to negotiate his way out of it.
0:10:33 > 0:10:39He is trying to bring a qualified conversation between Russia
0:10:39 > 0:10:43and the Ukraine, and the people there, and not threaten them
0:10:43 > 0:10:46with violence from Europe, which is the last thing they need.
0:10:46 > 0:10:51- You, sir, in the centre.- Some very interesting points raised there.
0:10:51 > 0:10:56One concern we need to establish even beyond this current crisis
0:10:56 > 0:11:00is that probably the two most damaging events of the last century
0:11:00 > 0:11:04were the two world wars, and NATO's agreements itself
0:11:04 > 0:11:07create the same kind of crises that permitted the First World War.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10The Serbs killed Franz Ferdinand,
0:11:10 > 0:11:12there was all of these cross-agreements
0:11:12 > 0:11:14that enabled the First World War.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18Where we sit right now, the Ukraine was inches from signing
0:11:18 > 0:11:23an agreement where it became part of NATO and where we would, therefore,
0:11:23 > 0:11:27have been forced into a situation that would be extremely damaging.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31There wasn't. I'm sorry. There are some extraordinary things going on here.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35- Firstly, no-one has suggested any use of military force against Russia.- Exactly.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38That would be completely mad.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41Secondly, nobody is suggesting the Ukraine comes into NATO.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44The EU agreement was an association agreement with
0:11:44 > 0:11:45the European Union,
0:11:45 > 0:11:49which, as far as we can tell, the majority of Ukrainian people
0:11:49 > 0:11:52seem to have wanted, but which the president, after discussions
0:11:52 > 0:11:56with President Putin - I wonder what went on there - decided at
0:11:56 > 0:12:01the last moment that he wasn't going to sign and set off the crisis.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04The EU didn't set off a crisis, Yanukovych did,
0:12:04 > 0:12:08and Putin is now trying to take advantage of it.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12APPLAUSE Excuse me, David, but let me tell you about the conversation between
0:12:12 > 0:12:17Catherine Ashton and the Estonian Foreign Minister,
0:12:17 > 0:12:21who told her that the information points to those snipers who were shooting...
0:12:21 > 0:12:26- No, he didn't say that. - He did say that, it was confirmed... Let me finish.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30This was confirmed by the Estonian Foreign Ministry.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34- He didn't confirm that. - Make clear what you're asserting.
0:12:34 > 0:12:41Suddenly we learned that the snipers who were shooting both at the police and the protesters
0:12:41 > 0:12:46- were hired by the opposition. - No, we didn't. That's a lie.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50Excuse me, you should read the text. This is very important, because that betrays...
0:12:50 > 0:12:55It's no use getting into the minutiae of who said what and who shot what.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59This is a vitally important political issue of massive scale.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02Where I take issue with David, he says we've guaranteed
0:13:02 > 0:13:04this frontier. Terrific.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08We can all march to the banners, but actually you can't do anything.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10So you're deceiving your audience.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14I think you were in that government, Michael, which made that guarantee.
0:13:14 > 0:13:20This issue is full of quotations of who said what. The issue is this.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24The Russians are there and we, you say, have guaranteed the frontier.
0:13:24 > 0:13:28I don't disagree. What are you going to do about it?
0:13:28 > 0:13:30You're not going to send troops.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32- Are you going to have economic sanctions?- Yes.- There is no chance.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36There is no chance of the Germans agreeing to economic sanctions,
0:13:36 > 0:13:39because they will suffer more than the Russians,
0:13:39 > 0:13:41because they depend on Russia for their energy supply.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44- APPLAUSE - All right. You, sir.
0:13:46 > 0:13:47Yes.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52Personally, I think the UK needs to wake up.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55We need to play our role on the global scale,
0:13:55 > 0:13:57toning down the rhetoric from the US.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00Bridge the gap between the US and the EU and Russia.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03- There's a bigger picture going on here.- That's right.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05Not only are we disagreeing about the Ukraine,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08but while the Syrian conflict goes on,
0:14:08 > 0:14:12and let's bear in mind that Russia supports President Assad,
0:14:12 > 0:14:14there's already an element of distrust.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19We need to play a more mediatorial role in this.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23We need to open the talks, get Russia back on side.
0:14:23 > 0:14:25I don't agree with what they've done,
0:14:25 > 0:14:29but we can't go wading into this pretending we're a big authority.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32We're not. And we rely on the gas from Russia.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36What would your view be if they have this vote in Crimea
0:14:36 > 0:14:40and it votes to go with Russia and leave Ukraine?
0:14:40 > 0:14:44- If it can be overseen...- It can't.
0:14:44 > 0:14:48Well, if it can be, and if they allow the EU in to make sure
0:14:48 > 0:14:51- the vote is fair and that's the way they vote...- They won't.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55Then it would be a closed issue for you. You, sir, at the back.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59I agree with David Aaronovitch there.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01I mean, where's the moral imperative to this?
0:15:01 > 0:15:06When are we going to stand up for a country that wants democracy?
0:15:06 > 0:15:09Is this not akin to Germany going into Poland,
0:15:09 > 0:15:11you know, the first steps of that?
0:15:11 > 0:15:16Is not the actions of Vladimir Putin just totalitarian and dictatorial?
0:15:16 > 0:15:19- But if you... - All of what he has done is unjust.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21Does anybody care about that any longer?
0:15:21 > 0:15:22When you talk about the morality,
0:15:22 > 0:15:26what do you think is happening in Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya,
0:15:26 > 0:15:29all of which were used to justify the argument,
0:15:29 > 0:15:32"We will set up stable democratic governments"?
0:15:32 > 0:15:34Look at what's happening there.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36APPLAUSE
0:15:36 > 0:15:38Rachel Reeves. Hang on,
0:15:38 > 0:15:41you can come back at her, but let Rachel Reeves answer your point.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45Going back to the first question as well, from Eddie.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48Look, I think there is common ground that can be found.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51Others have said this already, but it is worth repeating.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53We need to lower the temperature,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56de-escalate and get the Ukrainians and Russians talking to each other.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58That is the only way we'll find a solution.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02Of course there's a role for Britain and the EU and America,
0:16:02 > 0:16:04but there will only really be an answer
0:16:04 > 0:16:07- if the Ukrainians and Russians talk to each other.- That's correct.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09Now, there are, of course, things we can do.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11No-one is suggesting military action.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14That sort of language, I think, is sabre rattling,
0:16:14 > 0:16:16that won't help anybody,
0:16:16 > 0:16:18but there are targeted things that can be done,
0:16:18 > 0:16:22for example, visa restrictions, asset freezing.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25I'm not suggesting they need to be done right now,
0:16:25 > 0:16:27but there are options on the table
0:16:27 > 0:16:30which are short of sanctions and certainly short of military action.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32I do think that common ground can be found
0:16:32 > 0:16:35- but we need that common ground.- It's not the first time Russia's done it.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37It might be Ukraine now,
0:16:37 > 0:16:41but it might be another one of the former USSR states
0:16:41 > 0:16:42in another ten years.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46The last time they did go into one of their former countries,
0:16:46 > 0:16:48they devastated it. They really, really did.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50So when are we going to turn round
0:16:50 > 0:16:53and start helping these people who are asking for our help
0:16:53 > 0:16:56and stop helping people who aren't wanting our help?
0:16:56 > 0:16:59The best way to help is to get people sat around the table
0:16:59 > 0:17:01with each other, which is not happening now
0:17:01 > 0:17:03and it's an important role for Britain and the EU.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06- Does that work for you?- They didn't listen the first time round.
0:17:06 > 0:17:08It's the only thing that will work.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10What do you think? I said I'd come back to you at the back.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12I agree with Rachel Reeves and a lot of people,
0:17:12 > 0:17:14there needs to be dialogue and a way forward.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17Even though I have a lot of respect for you, Michael Heseltine,
0:17:17 > 0:17:21I get tired of this thing about Iraq and Afghanistan being wheeled out
0:17:21 > 0:17:25as examples of how the West has meddled in other country's affairs.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27These are very different scenarios.
0:17:27 > 0:17:32There were a lot of precedents about agreements that were made before,
0:17:32 > 0:17:36the fact that NATO, all these countries around are part of NATO.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38If a country wants democracy,
0:17:38 > 0:17:41it should be upheld by countries like this.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44OK, Simon Hughes, do you want to answer that point?
0:17:44 > 0:17:46It should be upheld by countries like this,
0:17:46 > 0:17:48but can I link that with the initial question?
0:17:48 > 0:17:50Is Russia big? Yes.
0:17:50 > 0:17:51Is it unpredictable?
0:17:51 > 0:17:55Yes, in some respects, in terms of how it pursues its ambitions,
0:17:55 > 0:17:57and is it scary? Certainly,
0:17:57 > 0:18:00when its troops, pretending not to be its troops, appear in other countries
0:18:00 > 0:18:04that's pretty scary, but we have to be a bit careful.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07In my constituency just by the Imperial War Museum, there is
0:18:07 > 0:18:11a memorial to the Soviet war dead at the end of the Second World War.
0:18:11 > 0:18:1425 million people.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17- They were our allies.- Yeah.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20Without them, we would not have won the Second World War.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22The Arctic convoys, who we salute,
0:18:22 > 0:18:25were part of that wonderful rescue operation.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30It is ironic, in a way, that it was in Crimea, in Yalta,
0:18:30 > 0:18:34where the settlement post-war was resolved in 1945.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37Where does this get us with today?
0:18:37 > 0:18:41Where it gets us is that we have to be sensitive to Russian history,
0:18:41 > 0:18:45while we absolutely uphold the right of the Ukrainian people
0:18:45 > 0:18:48to their independence, to their own decision-making.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52Alexander is wrong about what happened in the last few weeks.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56There was a deal done for a coalition agreement.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59The President then left within 24 hours.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02The parliament, the parliament, decided what should happen.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05The parliament elected an interim president.
0:19:05 > 0:19:06And David is absolutely right,
0:19:06 > 0:19:10there is a guarantee, of which we are signatories,
0:19:10 > 0:19:12that Ukraine should not be invaded.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16We are signatories of that, in return for them giving up nuclear weapons.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19There is an absolute guarantee that Crimea is part of Ukraine.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23We need, as Rachel says, and there's a consensus across Parliament
0:19:23 > 0:19:27among the major parties, to encourage the European Union to work together.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30We have slightly different interests, but we must work together.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33We have to use those appropriate sanctions and methods
0:19:33 > 0:19:37which are political and which give the message to Russia,
0:19:37 > 0:19:38but if the Ukrainians,
0:19:38 > 0:19:41I've been there several times, I love the country and the people,
0:19:41 > 0:19:44if the Ukrainians can't look to us at moments like this
0:19:44 > 0:19:47to stand up for the liberties, to determine their own future,
0:19:47 > 0:19:50then we are not just denying our obligation to them in law,
0:19:50 > 0:19:54we are actually failing to stand up for standards that should be European
0:19:54 > 0:19:57- and that Russia needs to respect as well.- But if the Crimea...
0:19:57 > 0:19:59APPLAUSE
0:20:00 > 0:20:04If Crimea chooses to leave Ukraine,
0:20:04 > 0:20:06then there's nothing you can do about it
0:20:06 > 0:20:08despite these agreements and guarantees.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11Hang on a minute. It's slightly more complicated.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14Ukraine has done this before. There has been a vote. Since 1954,
0:20:14 > 0:20:15when Crimea was given to Ukraine,
0:20:15 > 0:20:19there's already been one occasion when there was a vote, a referendum,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22- a so-called referendum.- No, Simon, there was never a referendum.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25- Sorry.- There was.- You can't say that. There was never a referendum.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27I do say that. I do say that.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30I'm also clear that the parliament in Crimea has made decisions,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34as it were, to break away. The issue is not now whether we allow,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37suddenly in the middle of all this turmoil, Crimea to break away.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39We need to, as Rachel rightly said,
0:20:39 > 0:20:42seek to get the Russians and Ukrainians around the table.
0:20:42 > 0:20:4530% of people in Ukraine are Russian speaking, first language.
0:20:45 > 0:20:46They need to come around the table,
0:20:46 > 0:20:50supported by the rest of the European Union. Can I say one last thing?
0:20:50 > 0:20:53The economic future of Russia, as well as Ukraine,
0:20:53 > 0:20:54depends on a peaceful outcome.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56Russia's economy is not in good nick,
0:20:56 > 0:20:58Ukraine's economy is not in good nick.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00They could be very strong economically,
0:21:00 > 0:21:02they could help themselves and us,
0:21:02 > 0:21:06but we are going the wrong way if we allow things to go on as they are.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09We've got hands up, and we've had a lot of talk about
0:21:09 > 0:21:13what the EU and Britain might do economically,
0:21:13 > 0:21:17sanctions and all that, so I want to take a question
0:21:17 > 0:21:20from Sharmit Mehta, please, on this point,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23and we'll carry on with this because it's very interesting.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27I question how credible the threats of economic sanctions on Russia
0:21:27 > 0:21:30actually are, given it supplies 30% of Europe's gas.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34It's a point Michael Heseltine made. How credible are the threats
0:21:34 > 0:21:37of sanctions, or indeed of any action? David.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42Firstly, Russia is a great deal more
0:21:42 > 0:21:45open to economic sanctions
0:21:45 > 0:21:47than, say, the Soviet Union was.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50All these arguments were deployed at the time of the Soviet Union,
0:21:50 > 0:21:52"You couldn't do anything about Hungary or Czechoslovakia."
0:21:52 > 0:21:55And it was true, because Russia was not part of the world economy.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Now it is, and it's a pretty vulnerable part of the world economy.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01That's why its oligarchs come and live over here,
0:22:01 > 0:22:05buy our football clubs, buy up large sections of London etc,
0:22:05 > 0:22:09use this place as a place to launder money, large amounts that were stolen
0:22:09 > 0:22:13in Russia, effectively, by stealing the assets of the Russian people.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17The question is whether we will be effectively corrupted by that money
0:22:17 > 0:22:20into saying we are not prepared to take any kind of economic hit
0:22:20 > 0:22:22should, in ten days' time,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25this is the point, in ten days' time, that rigged vote will happen,
0:22:25 > 0:22:27and in ten days' time, effectively,
0:22:27 > 0:22:30there will be a de facto annexation of the Crimea
0:22:30 > 0:22:32unless we show in these next ten days
0:22:32 > 0:22:35that we are prepared to do something about it.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38I agree about the business about talking people down
0:22:38 > 0:22:41and getting people to talk but it can't be on the basis that
0:22:41 > 0:22:44effectively we say, "Yeah, we're happy with the annexation."
0:22:44 > 0:22:46Michael Heseltine.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51I would never say I was happy.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55I just listen to hear what you think we should do.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58We're not going to impose sanctions on Russia,
0:22:58 > 0:23:00because we won't get agreement to do it.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02What no-one is talking about is
0:23:02 > 0:23:06whether sanctions on Russia might lead to sanctions on us from Russia
0:23:06 > 0:23:10and the cost in British economic terms that would flow from that.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13If we could get agreement, Michael, would you be in favour of it?
0:23:13 > 0:23:16- If we could get agreement... - With European partners?
0:23:16 > 0:23:21With European partners to talk to Russia and the Ukraine, yes,
0:23:21 > 0:23:25but what I would not do is to rush to the point at which
0:23:25 > 0:23:28Russia is forced onto the defensive.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32You know, I think you said it, or the question earlier,
0:23:32 > 0:23:35are they unpredictable? They are not unpredictable.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38These are the most sophisticated chess players in the world.
0:23:38 > 0:23:43What they do is to back their own self interests vehemently,
0:23:43 > 0:23:47but they calculate. I remember vividly as Defence Secretary
0:23:47 > 0:23:50facing the dangers of a nuclear holocaust,
0:23:50 > 0:23:53the only real danger was a mistake.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57The Russians would never have precipitated a nuclear war
0:23:57 > 0:24:01because they could never have won such a war.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03OK, you, sir, in the fourth row.
0:24:03 > 0:24:04APPLAUSE
0:24:06 > 0:24:08I just think it's very telling that
0:24:08 > 0:24:11when there are economic interests of the EU and of America and Russia
0:24:11 > 0:24:15involved, the whole international community are absolutely concerned.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18When it comes to Bosnia and Herzegovina,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21who have seen a massive crisis in terms of workers' protests
0:24:21 > 0:24:23and government attacking those protesters
0:24:23 > 0:24:25and police attacking those protesters,
0:24:25 > 0:24:29the international community has been silent, completely silent.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31- I think it's atrocious.- But...
0:24:31 > 0:24:32APPLAUSE
0:24:32 > 0:24:35Are you saying economic self-interest...
0:24:35 > 0:24:38- Self-interest, completely. - ..dominates?- Yeah.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40Amanda Platell, you'd agree with that?
0:24:40 > 0:24:41I can't see in a million years
0:24:41 > 0:24:45that we're going to implement any sanctions in this situation
0:24:45 > 0:24:48when we have to get the agreement of Germany, when they rely upon
0:24:48 > 0:24:5040% of their energy from Russia.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53It's just not going to happen, there won't be an agreement.
0:24:53 > 0:24:55- It'll happen next week.- Sorry?
0:24:55 > 0:24:58- It'll happen next week, Amanda. - What will happen?
0:24:58 > 0:25:02If the Russians and the pro-Russians in Crimea insist on going ahead
0:25:02 > 0:25:04with this referendum and rig it,
0:25:04 > 0:25:06there will be economic sanctions of some kind or another
0:25:06 > 0:25:08because we will have no alternative.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11David, you use the word, "and rig it".
0:25:11 > 0:25:14I can only ask you a simple question.
0:25:14 > 0:25:1881 out of the 83 members of the Crimean parliament
0:25:18 > 0:25:20today voted for such a referendum.
0:25:20 > 0:25:24How can you say, with certainty, that it will be rigged?
0:25:24 > 0:25:27- Or is that what you want to say after it happens?- No, I can't say...
0:25:27 > 0:25:29APPLAUSE
0:25:29 > 0:25:31- I can't say with certainty. - But you did say.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33No, I can't say with 100% certainty.
0:25:33 > 0:25:37- You did, that's what you did say. - I can say it with 95% likelihood...
0:25:37 > 0:25:40- Well, come off it! That's quibbling. - ..that it's going to be rigged.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42- That's not good enough for you?- No.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45Simon Hughes, you're in Government, the only person here in Government.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47What did you make of that bit of paper we saw
0:25:47 > 0:25:49being carried in or out of Downing Street
0:25:49 > 0:25:52saying actually we wouldn't do anything at all?
0:25:52 > 0:25:55Firstly, I don't think everybody saw the whole of the bit of paper,
0:25:55 > 0:25:58- as I understand it. - Did you see more than we saw?
0:25:58 > 0:26:00No, but I've, as you would hope,
0:26:00 > 0:26:02taken advice as to what is been discussed.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05Hang on, you've taken advice on what WAS on that bit of paper?
0:26:05 > 0:26:07I've talked to colleagues, obviously,
0:26:07 > 0:26:10- to know what exactly the Government's...- What did it say?
0:26:10 > 0:26:12LAUGHTER
0:26:12 > 0:26:13I don't...
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Given that it isn't a definitive position of the UK Government,
0:26:16 > 0:26:18I don't think exactly what it said is helpful.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20The UK Government has a very clear position
0:26:20 > 0:26:23set out by the Prime Minister today, yesterday and the day before,
0:26:23 > 0:26:25with the support of the Leader of the Opposition,
0:26:25 > 0:26:27and that is that we are taking action
0:26:27 > 0:26:29because to do nothing is unacceptable.
0:26:29 > 0:26:33To respond to the questioner, they are intended, to start with,
0:26:33 > 0:26:36to be targeted asset-related action,
0:26:36 > 0:26:41to deal with people who have money in this country who we can freeze
0:26:41 > 0:26:44and deal with in very targeted ways.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46Now, there are other things we can do. We've already said
0:26:46 > 0:26:49we are not proceeding with the preparations for the G8 Summit,
0:26:49 > 0:26:52which is due to be in Russia, because they hold the chair.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55We've already said we're not going to support, sadly,
0:26:55 > 0:26:58from a political assessment, the Paralympics.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59Those sort of things.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03Can I say to the gentleman who raised the question of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
0:27:03 > 0:27:05I had the privilege to be there two weeks ago.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09We absolutely have made clear to the government in that country
0:27:09 > 0:27:12that it's unacceptable for the authorities to turn on the public.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14I did so myself to the Prime Minister
0:27:14 > 0:27:17of the country on behalf of Her Majesty's Government.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20We absolutely make clear to all countries in Europe,
0:27:20 > 0:27:24whatever the relationship inside or outside the EU, that for example
0:27:24 > 0:27:26pressures on minorities like gay people is unacceptable,
0:27:26 > 0:27:30and we will go on doing that, but at the moment we need to concentrate
0:27:30 > 0:27:32on a collective agreement across the European Union,
0:27:32 > 0:27:34with all our differences,
0:27:34 > 0:27:37to try to make sure we have a common approach to say to Russia,
0:27:37 > 0:27:40"Stop, think, it's not in your interest
0:27:40 > 0:27:43- "and it's certainly not in the interests of Ukraine."- All right.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45And actually, we have done something.
0:27:45 > 0:27:47We have withdrawn Prince Edward's appearance
0:27:47 > 0:27:51at the Sochi Olympic Games, so we've come out fighting!
0:27:51 > 0:27:54LAUGHTER
0:27:54 > 0:27:57Can't work out whether that's a republican or a monarchist opinion
0:27:57 > 0:27:59that you advance, as an Australian.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01Or perhaps you aren't an Australian any more.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04You can join in this debate at home.
0:28:04 > 0:28:05Text, Twitter...
0:28:13 > 0:28:17I'm going to move on to a question now from Joel Hodgson, please.
0:28:18 > 0:28:20Can the Met ever be trusted
0:28:20 > 0:28:22when it comes to dealing with ethnic minorities?
0:28:22 > 0:28:23Can the Met ever be trusted
0:28:23 > 0:28:26when it comes to dealing with ethnic minorities?
0:28:26 > 0:28:30This is in the light of the Home Secretary's announcement today that
0:28:30 > 0:28:33there will have to be an inquiry into undercover policing
0:28:33 > 0:28:36after a review found what she called "deeply troubling evidence"
0:28:36 > 0:28:40that the police spied on the Stephen Lawrence family.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42The question is, can the Met ever be trusted?
0:28:42 > 0:28:44Simon Hughes, you are a London MP.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Do you think the Met can ever be trusted?
0:28:47 > 0:28:50The public in London need the Met to be trusted, but...
0:28:50 > 0:28:53- That's a different matter. - No, but they haven't arrived there.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55They should be trusted. It's a tragedy
0:28:55 > 0:28:58that after the efforts made by the Labour government under Jack Straw
0:28:58 > 0:29:00to have the Macpherson Inquiry,
0:29:00 > 0:29:04which we thought dealt with the Stephen Lawrence failed prosecutions
0:29:04 > 0:29:07and lots of action by the Met to deal with those things,
0:29:07 > 0:29:08we now discover from today's report,
0:29:08 > 0:29:11independently commissioned by the Government,
0:29:11 > 0:29:13very clear and robust decision from the Home Secretary,
0:29:13 > 0:29:15that they've failed again.
0:29:15 > 0:29:17They failed to investigate corruption allegations.
0:29:17 > 0:29:21They failed to pass on those allegations
0:29:21 > 0:29:24to the Macpherson Committee, and the third allegation was that
0:29:24 > 0:29:27there was clearly inappropriate undercover activity.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29Duwayne Brooks, who was the friend of Stephen Lawrence,
0:29:29 > 0:29:33who is a colleague and friend of mine, and who is now in public life
0:29:33 > 0:29:36because he is seeking to be the Mayor of the borough
0:29:36 > 0:29:40that Rachel originally came from in Lewisham, I spoke to today.
0:29:40 > 0:29:45He is a black man, a young black Londoner. I take his advice,
0:29:45 > 0:29:49because actually, it's about young, black minority and other Londoners.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51He said, "Look, we have to get the message across to the Met -
0:29:51 > 0:29:53"you have to move on. You have got to move on."
0:29:53 > 0:29:55It's no good looking back
0:29:55 > 0:29:58and trying to accuse people of things in the past.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00Yes, they need to be looked into,
0:30:00 > 0:30:03but the obligation on the Met and on the politicians in London
0:30:03 > 0:30:05is to make sure every single citizen
0:30:05 > 0:30:07in Barking and Dagenham and everywhere else
0:30:07 > 0:30:10can have confidence in the police force, and one thing that is needed -
0:30:10 > 0:30:13the police force needs to look like London.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16It needs to have the mix of ethnic backgrounds...
0:30:16 > 0:30:18- SHOUTING FROM AUDIENCE:- Like the Politicians!
0:30:18 > 0:30:19Sorry?
0:30:19 > 0:30:21APPLAUSE
0:30:23 > 0:30:24What did she say?
0:30:24 > 0:30:27- Just like the politicians. - That's true, that's true.
0:30:27 > 0:30:31Joel Hodgson asked the question, what's your opinion?
0:30:32 > 0:30:34I don't think that they can be trusted.
0:30:34 > 0:30:40I think it's just one mistake after another, so every week you're
0:30:40 > 0:30:43opening a newspaper and it's always something else that's gone wrong.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45I mean, is it going to be in 25 years' time,
0:30:45 > 0:30:49we're going to find out that Mark Duggan was unlawfully shot?
0:30:49 > 0:30:51What do you think, Rachel Reeves?
0:30:51 > 0:30:54I totally understand what Joel is saying
0:30:54 > 0:30:57and it shouldn't take 21 years for a mother to get justice
0:30:57 > 0:31:00and find out what happened to her son.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03Erm, back in Eltham, 21 years ago.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07But I would also say that the vast majority of police officers, like
0:31:07 > 0:31:10all of us, will be disgusted
0:31:10 > 0:31:13and distressed by what they have learnt today as well
0:31:13 > 0:31:17because the majority of police officers, I think, in London
0:31:17 > 0:31:20but also in Leeds, where I'm an MP, do a fantastic job
0:31:20 > 0:31:26of protecting us, investigating crimes, rooting out homophobia
0:31:26 > 0:31:31and racism and bringing people to justice for those crimes.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34And how do you know when you're dealing with the police
0:31:34 > 0:31:37whether you're dealing with one of the people you describe or
0:31:37 > 0:31:40whether you're dealing with somebody, who, like the
0:31:40 > 0:31:45Home Secretary says, is damaged, policing stands damaged today?
0:31:45 > 0:31:48How can you tell what you're dealing with?
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Well, look, I just think the vast majority are doing a good job
0:31:50 > 0:31:54and we need to ensure that the reforms that were recommended
0:31:54 > 0:31:56originally by Macpherson,
0:31:56 > 0:31:58and then now with this new inquiry, are taken forward.
0:31:58 > 0:32:00And that means reforming
0:32:00 > 0:32:04the Independent Police Complaints Commission
0:32:04 > 0:32:06because this was investigated in 2006
0:32:06 > 0:32:08and didn't find out any of this.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11- So, that clearly needs further reform.- OK.
0:32:11 > 0:32:12And we also need to have greater
0:32:12 > 0:32:14scrutiny of undercover police officers.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17Because that shouldn't have been allowed to happen the way it
0:32:17 > 0:32:20did with that infiltration of the family.
0:32:20 > 0:32:24So, reform is needed but I think we should trust the police.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27I think we can trust the police and I think the police, like us,
0:32:27 > 0:32:30will be disgusted by what they've learnt today.
0:32:30 > 0:32:31You, sir.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33APPLAUSE
0:32:35 > 0:32:40I think it's unfortunate that the police cannot be trusted.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44They have made efforts, I think, to improve the service
0:32:44 > 0:32:48but until we get rid of institutional racism
0:32:48 > 0:32:52and unless we understand what institutional racism's
0:32:52 > 0:32:55all about, there will never be that trust and I think institutional
0:32:55 > 0:32:58- racism exists throughout society, not just the police.- OK.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00And you, sir, at the very back there.
0:33:00 > 0:33:01APPLAUSE
0:33:01 > 0:33:03In the spectacles, yes.
0:33:03 > 0:33:08It was on the news last night about section 60, stop and search.
0:33:08 > 0:33:12The Government's put it on the back burner, basically.
0:33:12 > 0:33:17- They were going to reduce or cut out stop and search. - That's correct, yeah.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19David Aaronovitch? Have the Government done that?
0:33:19 > 0:33:21All the information I have is that there's a huge
0:33:21 > 0:33:26argument between the Home Secretary, Theresa May and Number Ten about
0:33:26 > 0:33:30whether or not she wants to restrict stop and search.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33And Number Ten badly doesn't because it sees it as quite
0:33:33 > 0:33:37an element in its ability to go out and say it's tough on crime.
0:33:37 > 0:33:38So, certainly,
0:33:38 > 0:33:41and not only is our relationships
0:33:41 > 0:33:44now between the Business Department
0:33:44 > 0:33:47and the Home Office incredibly bad but the relationship
0:33:47 > 0:33:50between the Home Office and Number Ten are incredibly bad.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52OK, you, sir, up there on the left.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56My view is that although we need to look at the police,
0:33:56 > 0:33:58solve their problems,
0:33:58 > 0:34:02we should stop navel-gazing because when you compare the police in this
0:34:02 > 0:34:06country to other parts of the world, I don't think we can fault them.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08You see, they do a good job.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11As a black man, I've been subject to stop and search.
0:34:11 > 0:34:16I used to live in Suffolk and when I came to London, in a week,
0:34:16 > 0:34:20I was stopped three occasions by the police.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23And I couldn't believe it that this could happen.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27But in the end, I have to put that aside and to decide that,
0:34:27 > 0:34:32look, the police are like just you and I. Everybody makes mistakes.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36When they make mistakes, it should be dealt with and move on.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38You don't think there's a policy of stopping black
0:34:38 > 0:34:43people as opposed to white people and searching them?
0:34:43 > 0:34:47I think there is, but also there a lot white people who are stopped
0:34:47 > 0:34:49but nobody reports it.
0:34:49 > 0:34:51So, I think we should stop navel-gazing.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54Can I just say one thing? To generalise is fine,
0:34:54 > 0:34:56Rachel's right, the police have made huge progress.
0:34:56 > 0:34:58But if you're the one person,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01if you're the person stopped on the street unjustifiably again
0:35:01 > 0:35:04and again and again, that is unacceptable
0:35:04 > 0:35:07and we have to deal with the stop and search problem.
0:35:07 > 0:35:09Because some communities get it really badly.
0:35:09 > 0:35:11APPLAUSE
0:35:11 > 0:35:13Alexander, what do you think?
0:35:13 > 0:35:15- You've lived here many years. - Yes, yes.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17What do you think of the policing here?
0:35:17 > 0:35:21Well, I think the police here is great compared to some countries.
0:35:21 > 0:35:22LAUGHTER
0:35:25 > 0:35:26APPLAUSE
0:35:28 > 0:35:31Well, we've seen the Ukrainian police
0:35:31 > 0:35:33and I know about the Russian police as well.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36To be honest with you, I think they're trying very hard
0:35:36 > 0:35:41to be inclusive and maybe if they don't have the numbers,
0:35:41 > 0:35:46you know, of black or Asian policemen but they're moving there.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49They're not saying, "No, no, no, we're not going to change."
0:35:49 > 0:35:52So, I have faith in the British police.
0:35:52 > 0:35:54OK, the woman there in the middle.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57Erm, like I said, we need to see change.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00We need to see what we want to believe in as a nation, as a country.
0:36:00 > 0:36:04We need to see...when you grow up, when the media portrays things,
0:36:04 > 0:36:07when our teachers, the policemen, the politicians,
0:36:07 > 0:36:09we need to see ethnic minorities.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11We need to see difference.
0:36:11 > 0:36:15If we just see, I'm sorry to say, just Conservative white people
0:36:15 > 0:36:18up there, we're not going to have belief in anything!
0:36:18 > 0:36:20I'm not saying it about white people, I'm saying Conservative
0:36:20 > 0:36:22and people who've come out of private schools.
0:36:22 > 0:36:24There's no-one there with a bit of colour,
0:36:24 > 0:36:26not talking about skin colour,
0:36:26 > 0:36:29I'm talking about colour to the plate, bringing something
0:36:29 > 0:36:31passionate, bringing something that we can look up to,
0:36:31 > 0:36:33rather than dryness.
0:36:33 > 0:36:35APPLAUSE
0:36:35 > 0:36:39And you, sir, in the fourth row from the back, yes.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41You, sir.
0:36:41 > 0:36:47I, personally, wouldn't...I've grown up in London but I don't
0:36:47 > 0:36:48trust the police.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Recently when I was part of the tuition fee strikes,
0:36:51 > 0:36:55we was rounded up with my friends, who were white, and we were
0:36:55 > 0:37:00taken to Euston Station for about three hours and then we were let go.
0:37:00 > 0:37:04They just told us, "Sign here, sign here." And then we were let go.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07And my white friends didn't leave with nothing,
0:37:07 > 0:37:10not even a warning but I left with a caution.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12Of doing nothing, literally.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14I'm trying to run a CRB for a job
0:37:14 > 0:37:17and then it comes up on Enhanced CRB, I realised that
0:37:17 > 0:37:20I do have a caution, which I didn't know about, no-one told me
0:37:20 > 0:37:22at Euston Station that I was given a caution.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24So, literally, this is going to live with me
0:37:24 > 0:37:28for the next five years, yet it's the mistake of the police.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31So, how do you expect me to trust the police when they can do
0:37:31 > 0:37:35that to me and they can't do it to my white friends from uni?
0:37:35 > 0:37:37Amanda Platell.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39APPLAUSE
0:37:42 > 0:37:45When Joel first asked that question, the first thing I was struck
0:37:45 > 0:37:48by is that you are a beautiful young black man,
0:37:48 > 0:37:50as Stephen Lawrence was before he
0:37:50 > 0:37:52was stabbed to death in the street.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54He was not just let down by the
0:37:54 > 0:37:56Met, it wasn't just the police who
0:37:56 > 0:38:00lied, not all of them, I can see that most of them are great.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03But there was an element that lied, that covered up,
0:38:03 > 0:38:05covered each other's backs.
0:38:05 > 0:38:07They were not just let down by the police,
0:38:07 > 0:38:09they were also let down by the politicians.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12And it was my newspaper, the Daily Mail,
0:38:12 > 0:38:16who ran a nonstop campaign against all fashion,
0:38:16 > 0:38:20against all popularity, against the reader.
0:38:20 > 0:38:22You know, it wasn't like putting
0:38:22 > 0:38:24Madeleine McCann on the front page of the paper.
0:38:24 > 0:38:29This was not a groundswell campaign but my editor, Paul Dacre, felt so
0:38:29 > 0:38:34passionately that this was so wrong that he campaigned for two decades!
0:38:34 > 0:38:36That's the plug for the Daily Mail.
0:38:36 > 0:38:38Let's have the answer to the question.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41It is actually really important because what we have now...
0:38:41 > 0:38:43It's been said often. What about the question that Joel asked?
0:38:43 > 0:38:45Can I actually speak now, is it Question Time?
0:38:45 > 0:38:48It is Question Time where you answer the question that Joel asked.
0:38:48 > 0:38:52And I answered it.
0:38:52 > 0:38:53THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:38:53 > 0:38:56As much as we know the Mail is a much-loved paper
0:38:56 > 0:38:59and all of that, can the Met ever be trusted,
0:38:59 > 0:39:02when it comes to dealing with ethnic minorities? That was the question.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04And I think that I answered that but the question now is...
0:39:04 > 0:39:06Right, then, we'll go on to somebody else.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08No, can I just finish?
0:39:08 > 0:39:09The simple point is that we
0:39:09 > 0:39:12talk about the fact that everything has changed
0:39:12 > 0:39:14and things have got better but actually,
0:39:14 > 0:39:16the whole case with Andrew Mitchell
0:39:16 > 0:39:18and "Plebgate" shows that the police still,
0:39:18 > 0:39:21there's an element of corruption and they cover each other's backs.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23And that is very, very worrying.
0:39:23 > 0:39:25APPLAUSE
0:39:25 > 0:39:27Michael Heseltine.
0:39:28 > 0:39:32Well, the particular story that we're addressing is a scandal.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34And I think the Government
0:39:34 > 0:39:36have reacted speedily
0:39:36 > 0:39:39and correctly in responding to what
0:39:39 > 0:39:41has shocked huge numbers of people.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46To pick on individuals for any reason,
0:39:46 > 0:39:50whether they be of a different race or a different class or
0:39:50 > 0:39:53different infirmity is intolerable.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55And the law is clear.
0:39:55 > 0:40:01Now, your specific question is "Can people trust the Met in the circumstances?"
0:40:02 > 0:40:06I think the truth is, for the most people, yes.
0:40:06 > 0:40:11But for very large numbers of a minority, no.
0:40:11 > 0:40:16- To be trusted by everyone, not for...- Life isn't like that.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20You never get 100% opinion on one issue.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22So, I think what I'm trying to say is
0:40:22 > 0:40:25that there's a balance in the answer.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28Many people will feel, I think, as you do, you never can trust them.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31But a lot of people say, "Yes, they're doing their duty."
0:40:31 > 0:40:33So, it's a mixed answer.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35Now, from your point of view
0:40:35 > 0:40:39and I'm very sympathetic to the point of your question.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42I think it was either Rachel or Simon who said that the police don't
0:40:42 > 0:40:45look like London.
0:40:45 > 0:40:48The electorate of London is now 50% ethnic
0:40:50 > 0:40:52but virtually nothing in London,
0:40:52 > 0:40:55except the electorate, looks 50% ethnic.
0:40:55 > 0:41:01And so the issue is about absorbing a vast number of new
0:41:01 > 0:41:04people who've come to this country over the last 50 years
0:41:04 > 0:41:07and seeing them represented at every level of society.
0:41:07 > 0:41:13One of the particular problems in the case of the police is,
0:41:13 > 0:41:17it's very difficult to recruit people from some of the ethnic groups.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19- Due to lack of trust.- Exactly.
0:41:19 > 0:41:25Exactly, OK...no, no, no, let's accept that point.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28Let's assume there is a lack of trust,
0:41:28 > 0:41:32how does the Met overcome that
0:41:32 > 0:41:34if they try to recruit people
0:41:34 > 0:41:37in order to build the trust, but the recruits don't come?
0:41:37 > 0:41:40Well, the recruitment system is obviously not fair then, is it?
0:41:40 > 0:41:42You're honestly telling me that these
0:41:42 > 0:41:44- people aren't applying for these jobs?- Oh, yes.
0:41:44 > 0:41:49- Oh, yes.- That's not... come on! I find that very hard to believe.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51You may find it hard to believe...
0:41:51 > 0:41:54Can I just say, as someone who was attacked in Barking just two
0:41:54 > 0:41:57weeks ago as a consequence of sheer
0:41:57 > 0:42:00and utter incompetence by the police here,
0:42:00 > 0:42:03I ran and chased my attacker to the police station myself.
0:42:03 > 0:42:05That police station was closed on a Sunday afternoon
0:42:05 > 0:42:07and no-one was there to rescue me
0:42:07 > 0:42:10but a 13-year-old Muslim girl, who came to my rescue to defend me!
0:42:10 > 0:42:12APPLAUSE
0:42:12 > 0:42:13You may find it hard to believe
0:42:13 > 0:42:17but it is difficult to attract certain groups of ethnic minority.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20My point is that the people you've got in power at the moment
0:42:20 > 0:42:22aren't doing the job correctly.
0:42:22 > 0:42:24As the lass down there was saying, the Conservative
0:42:24 > 0:42:26white people are not doing their jobs properly, so...
0:42:26 > 0:42:29OK, you, sir, at the back there in the check shirt.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32Thank you. I think we have to put it in context,
0:42:32 > 0:42:34we're talking about corruption in the police service.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37The Metropolitan Police has 35,000 police officers, we're
0:42:37 > 0:42:41talking about a handful of incidents here over a number of years.
0:42:41 > 0:42:43APPLAUSE
0:42:43 > 0:42:47OK. All right, and time is against us.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49I'm going to move on to another question.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52This is a question we had, I think, more questions about,
0:42:52 > 0:42:55apart from Ukraine than anything else this evening
0:42:55 > 0:43:00and it's from Pam Dumbleton, please, Pam Dumbleton.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03Isn't it time the Government listened to the people about the effects
0:43:03 > 0:43:07immigration is having in changing our communities?
0:43:07 > 0:43:09APPLAUSE
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Just in what way do you think the Government isn't listening?
0:43:14 > 0:43:16The Government haven't got a clue.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19David Cameron has never been to Barking.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23If he came, he'd be warned in advance
0:43:23 > 0:43:25and everything would be brushed up.
0:43:25 > 0:43:28The Government needs to come and walk through our town
0:43:28 > 0:43:30and just see how we now live.
0:43:30 > 0:43:33Go back 12 years, it was totally different.
0:43:33 > 0:43:36Now we are the complete minority there
0:43:36 > 0:43:40and it's just like the most terrible place on earth to live at the moment.
0:43:40 > 0:43:42GASPS
0:43:42 > 0:43:43LIMITED APPLAUSE
0:43:43 > 0:43:44Amanda Platell.
0:43:44 > 0:43:45SHE LAUGHS
0:43:45 > 0:43:49I did a little bit of research about Barking before I came here
0:43:49 > 0:43:54and evidently you've had a 30% drop in the indigenous population
0:43:54 > 0:43:57and a 200% increase in immigration.
0:43:57 > 0:43:59Yes.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02And, look, I think I'm the only one on the panel that is an immigrant.
0:44:02 > 0:44:06I came from Australia 28 years ago with a backpack.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09I love this country, I'm really glad to be able to live here
0:44:09 > 0:44:14but I never came here expecting that I would be able to get a house,
0:44:14 > 0:44:18send child benefit back home, use the welfare system.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20I always thought it was a privilege to be here
0:44:20 > 0:44:23and I do not understand when we have the kind of social tensions
0:44:23 > 0:44:27we have here with schools, which are just overflowing now.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30You've got more children of school age, in this area, proportion
0:44:30 > 0:44:34of population, than anywhere else in the country.
0:44:34 > 0:44:37And that's because you have lots of people coming in,
0:44:37 > 0:44:40many of whom want to work really hard and want to contribute,
0:44:40 > 0:44:44but the Government is not taking account of the pressure it puts...
0:44:44 > 0:44:48- And how should it do that?- Well, David, I think it's a huge problem.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51- What David Cameron has suggested recently...- Say again, sorry?
0:44:51 > 0:44:54Listen to the indigenous people here, the people that have been here
0:44:54 > 0:44:56all their lives, all their families have been here.
0:44:56 > 0:45:00David Cameron did suggest that we had a ban, so if someone was
0:45:00 > 0:45:04coming in they had to work for three months and pay tax before they...
0:45:04 > 0:45:07- Look, people today, one in seven... - ..were able to use benefits.
0:45:07 > 0:45:09I would say ten years, I would say make it a bigger barrier,
0:45:09 > 0:45:10make people contribute.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13All right. Make your point, sir, again. What was it?
0:45:13 > 0:45:17One in seven new businesses are set up by immigrants, yeah?
0:45:17 > 0:45:19To employ immigrants.
0:45:19 > 0:45:21They're all being given money,
0:45:21 > 0:45:23everything's being thrown at the immigrants.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25AUDIENCE GRUMBLES
0:45:25 > 0:45:26David Aaronovitch...
0:45:26 > 0:45:30Can I finish? I've applied for 100 jobs on the railway. 100 jobs.
0:45:30 > 0:45:32I don't even get an interview no more.
0:45:32 > 0:45:34In the old days, at least you'd get a letter.
0:45:34 > 0:45:36At least you'd get a rejection letter.
0:45:36 > 0:45:37I don't even get that, 100 jobs!
0:45:37 > 0:45:40But these immigrants, they get all their tickets paid for,
0:45:40 > 0:45:44they get all the jobs. I am homeless. I've got nowhere to live.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47I have to go down today and see an immigrant,
0:45:47 > 0:45:49an immigrant telling me that I...
0:45:49 > 0:45:51Well, that's the truth. That's the truth!
0:45:51 > 0:45:53I went down to John Smith House today
0:45:53 > 0:45:58and an immigrant tells me that I cannot live here.
0:45:58 > 0:45:59I cannot get nowhere to live.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02- All right, David Aaronovitch. - AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS
0:46:02 > 0:46:04- Hang on. All right. - AUDIENCE ARGUING
0:46:04 > 0:46:06OK, we get your point.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09- We are the minority, and we get nothing.- You are...
0:46:09 > 0:46:11Sir, you're blaming...
0:46:11 > 0:46:14- I'm not blaming immigrants at all! - No, you're blaming the wrong people.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18- You're...- I'm not. I'm just stating the facts of the case!
0:46:18 > 0:46:22No, no, you're stating a perception of the facts of the case.
0:46:22 > 0:46:25For me, personally, and for many people like me.
0:46:25 > 0:46:27OK, you made your point, let him answer it.
0:46:27 > 0:46:29Just cos you perceive something doesn't make it true.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31- We all...- It's true for me.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33APPLAUSE
0:46:38 > 0:46:39There isn't anything...
0:46:39 > 0:46:42We've been told we're just BNP! We're not all racist!
0:46:42 > 0:46:44No, hang on, sir. Hang on, be fair, be fair.
0:46:44 > 0:46:47What about the indigenous people here as well?
0:46:47 > 0:46:48I think we've heard your point,
0:46:48 > 0:46:51the idea is that the panel should be able to answer.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53No-one has so far accused anybody of being racist.
0:46:53 > 0:46:56But the things that you've said were exactly what was said
0:46:56 > 0:46:59about my grandparents when they came over to the Jewish East End
0:46:59 > 0:47:01in the early 1900s, exactly the same things.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03They said precisely the same things.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06"We can't walk through our streets because they're not ours any more."
0:47:06 > 0:47:09Why is a street not yours because some of the faces in it are black?
0:47:09 > 0:47:13Why can't you be in a street that has black and white people?
0:47:13 > 0:47:15All right, you can answer this.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH
0:47:17 > 0:47:21- Hold on, actually, most immigrants... - He didn't actually say, David...
0:47:21 > 0:47:23He didn't say anything about black, and actually...
0:47:23 > 0:47:26- He didn't mention black people. - Ridiculous.
0:47:26 > 0:47:28Do you really think that?
0:47:28 > 0:47:32I've got nowhere to live, I need to go and find somewhere to live.
0:47:32 > 0:47:36- All right.- Yeah, I will! Tonight. - APPLAUSE
0:47:36 > 0:47:39OK, you, sir, at the very back there. Thank you very much.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41You, sir, at the back.
0:47:41 > 0:47:46Can I say, I work round the corner in a school that is
0:47:46 > 0:47:50a fantastically assimilated and cohesive community.
0:47:50 > 0:47:55I do not recognise the Barking that we're hearing from the front row.
0:47:55 > 0:47:56I'm a bit worried...
0:47:56 > 0:47:58APPLAUSE
0:48:00 > 0:48:03I'm a bit...not disgusted,
0:48:03 > 0:48:06but a bit concerned that the BBC tonight selected that question from
0:48:06 > 0:48:11the lady at the front there just to build up this sort of debate.
0:48:11 > 0:48:14- APPLAUSE - You may... Hang on, hang on.
0:48:14 > 0:48:16You may not have heard me say
0:48:16 > 0:48:18there were more questions on immigration...
0:48:18 > 0:48:22Wait a minute, be fair, more questions on immigration
0:48:22 > 0:48:25in Barking than on any other subject apart from Ukraine.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28- I appreciate that.- So don't start attacking the programme
0:48:28 > 0:48:31for having selected this question.
0:48:31 > 0:48:34What I'd really love the panel to comment on,
0:48:34 > 0:48:40though, is the supposed suppression today by the Tories of a report
0:48:40 > 0:48:45that said there was no link between immigration and unemployment.
0:48:45 > 0:48:49Michael Heseltine, if you'd like to answer that.
0:48:49 > 0:48:53The Conservative-led Government has just published the report,
0:48:53 > 0:48:57so I don't know what you're using the word "suppression" about.
0:48:57 > 0:49:02And what... what the report says
0:49:02 > 0:49:04is that actually there isn't anything like
0:49:04 > 0:49:08the linkage between immigration and unemployment as people perceived.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10That's what the report says,
0:49:10 > 0:49:13although there was an earlier report which indicated there was.
0:49:14 > 0:49:17But why I disagree with you is
0:49:17 > 0:49:20because I think it's the job of the BBC
0:49:20 > 0:49:23to allow questions of this sort to be asked,
0:49:23 > 0:49:27because undoubtedly this whole issue of immigration
0:49:27 > 0:49:30and the rate at which we can attract foreign people from overseas
0:49:30 > 0:49:34is absolutely fundamental to the political debate in this country.
0:49:34 > 0:49:37And if you actually look at the UK Isolationist Party,
0:49:37 > 0:49:38they call themselves UKIP,
0:49:38 > 0:49:43the whole appeal of UKIP is actually about immigration,
0:49:43 > 0:49:47and the resentments that we heard here, that's the UKIP question.
0:49:47 > 0:49:52And I think that the most impressive thing that's happened here tonight,
0:49:52 > 0:49:55in Barking, is the overwhelming reaction of the audience
0:49:55 > 0:49:59in resentment at this parody of what Barking is all about.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01APPLAUSE
0:50:03 > 0:50:07You, sir, up there. Yes, in the blue shirt.
0:50:07 > 0:50:09I think you're deluding yourself
0:50:09 > 0:50:12- if you think there aren't these tensions.- Yes, there are.
0:50:12 > 0:50:13Especially in this area.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15But I think maybe you're blaming the wrong people
0:50:15 > 0:50:18if you're blaming each other sitting in this audience.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21If you're going to let people come here without any infrastructure
0:50:21 > 0:50:24and any planning to settle them in, then there's going to be tensions,
0:50:24 > 0:50:28and it's not just going to be white versus black or black versus Chinese,
0:50:28 > 0:50:29it's going to be everybody.
0:50:29 > 0:50:31APPLAUSE
0:50:31 > 0:50:34Rachel Reeves, you're applauding him. You agree.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37I do agree with him, and look, David said that just because the
0:50:37 > 0:50:40gentleman at the front perceives something doesn't make it real.
0:50:40 > 0:50:42And he shouted back, "But it's real for me."
0:50:42 > 0:50:45And he walked out of this room and people clapped,
0:50:45 > 0:50:47and you shouldn't have clapped when he walked out of this room
0:50:47 > 0:50:50because for him, he is homeless, and he might be wrong in blaming
0:50:50 > 0:50:53some people in this room for that, but that's how he feels.
0:50:53 > 0:50:55And that is a situation that he's facing today.
0:50:55 > 0:50:58And we can't just say "You're wrong" and let him walk out,
0:50:58 > 0:51:01because he has to hear what other people have to say,
0:51:01 > 0:51:03and you have to hear what he has to say as well.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06But I do agree with this gentleman
0:51:06 > 0:51:09because if we are going to let people come into this country,
0:51:09 > 0:51:12we've got to make sure that there is a level playing field.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15We've got to make sure that there are school places, we've got
0:51:15 > 0:51:18to make sure there are the homes for people to live in, and we've got
0:51:18 > 0:51:24to make sure as well that there are jobs for people, and we need to
0:51:24 > 0:51:28make sure as well that the labour market isn't rigged against people.
0:51:28 > 0:51:31So, you know, the situation where jobs are advertised overseas
0:51:31 > 0:51:34but they're not advertised in this country, for example.
0:51:34 > 0:51:36- You believe that's happening? - It does happen.
0:51:36 > 0:51:40So you believe that immigration as a whole is being wrongly handled?
0:51:40 > 0:51:44I do think that there are very real problems that we need to deal with.
0:51:44 > 0:51:47For example, jobs should be advertised in this country,
0:51:47 > 0:51:49the minimum wage should be properly enforced,
0:51:49 > 0:51:51health and safety should be enforced,
0:51:51 > 0:51:55private landlords who let out their houses to, you know, ten people
0:51:55 > 0:51:58in a two, three bedroom home, that should not be allowed.
0:51:58 > 0:52:00APPLAUSE
0:52:00 > 0:52:05And we've got to understand the legitimate concerns of people who
0:52:05 > 0:52:08have lived here and their families have lived there all their lives.
0:52:08 > 0:52:11We also have to understand that people come to this country
0:52:11 > 0:52:14because they want to work hard, like David's family did, like you
0:52:14 > 0:52:16and your families of other people in this room did.
0:52:16 > 0:52:19And we've got to make it work for everybody, for all of us,
0:52:19 > 0:52:21because we have to live in this community together.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23We can't roll back the clock, we have to make it work
0:52:23 > 0:52:25and we can only do that by working together.
0:52:25 > 0:52:28This is the most arrant hypocrisy I've ever listened to!
0:52:28 > 0:52:30This is a supporter of the Labour government that had
0:52:30 > 0:52:33over 200,000 people coming into this country as immigrants...
0:52:33 > 0:52:36And there are 200,000 coming today, Michael.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38And you actually did absolutely nothing about it,
0:52:38 > 0:52:41and you're now pretending you've got all these policies.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44What would you do? What would you actually do in government?
0:52:44 > 0:52:46First of all, Michael...
0:52:46 > 0:52:48- What would you do? - Do you want to listen to me?
0:52:48 > 0:52:50I do, I want you to answer the question. What would you do?
0:52:50 > 0:52:53First of all, there are 200,000 people coming to this country today.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55Under the rules that you created.
0:52:55 > 0:52:58No, under the rules, you've been in government for four years,
0:52:58 > 0:53:01- your government's been in power for four years.- But what did you do?
0:53:01 > 0:53:06First of all, I've been in parliament since 2010.
0:53:06 > 0:53:08So it's your party's fault.
0:53:08 > 0:53:12What I'm saying is we need rules to enforce these things.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14We need to ensure that the infrastructure is there and
0:53:14 > 0:53:18we need to ensure that jobs aren't just being advertised overseas.
0:53:18 > 0:53:19No-one's been named or shamed
0:53:19 > 0:53:22for not paying the national minimum wage.
0:53:22 > 0:53:23We need to ensure that those rules,
0:53:23 > 0:53:26that gang masters can't exploit those rules.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29There are practical things we could do, but blaming each other,
0:53:29 > 0:53:32people blaming each other, that's not the right way forward.
0:53:32 > 0:53:35All right, you in the front here, then I'll come to you, Alexander.
0:53:35 > 0:53:37I think one of the problems is, in the past,
0:53:37 > 0:53:40when immigrants came in, it was in small numbers,
0:53:40 > 0:53:43and they gradually assimilated into the new community.
0:53:43 > 0:53:45And the new community accepted them.
0:53:45 > 0:53:48Here in Barking, it's been like an absolute invasion.
0:53:48 > 0:53:52We were talking about what's happening in, sort of,
0:53:52 > 0:53:55the Crimea earlier, the threat of invasion there.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58Here in Barking, we seem to be living through it.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00I love the new foreign people, I get on with them,
0:54:00 > 0:54:02but I just don't know this borough.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04I feel a stranger in my own country.
0:54:04 > 0:54:08Alexander. Alexander Nekrassov.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12Well, you know, from a point of view of a Russian who is living here,
0:54:12 > 0:54:17I tell you why you have that debate and why you are so heated about it,
0:54:17 > 0:54:19is because it's been suppressed for so long,
0:54:19 > 0:54:23and the only reason why you have it now is because the elections are coming.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26UKIP is sort of, you know, making a fuss about this.
0:54:26 > 0:54:29And suddenly all the parties started to talk.
0:54:29 > 0:54:35But there was no reasonable debate on that issue about four years ago.
0:54:35 > 0:54:40We had Enoch Powell in the 1960s saying all the same sort of things.
0:54:40 > 0:54:42- It's not a new debate.- No, it's not.
0:54:42 > 0:54:47We had this debate back in 2010 with Gordon Brown.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50We've been having nothing but the immigration debate for the last,
0:54:50 > 0:54:53it seems to me, the last ten years. And let me just...
0:54:53 > 0:54:56Are you saying it should be closed down, the debate?
0:54:56 > 0:54:59I am very much in favour of the debate, but I'm also in favour
0:54:59 > 0:55:02of saying that I'm actually pleased that Labour let all those
0:55:02 > 0:55:05immigrants come to Britain, people who are an immense...
0:55:05 > 0:55:10They say a terrifically good thing about this place as a country,
0:55:10 > 0:55:13and they contribute an enormous amount to this country,
0:55:13 > 0:55:15- and if there are problems... Yeah. - APPLAUSE
0:55:15 > 0:55:19And if there are problems of transition and services
0:55:19 > 0:55:22and so on, yes, we should solve those problems,
0:55:22 > 0:55:25but those kids we're talking about in those overflowing schools
0:55:25 > 0:55:30- will be paying your kids' pensions. - All right. Simon Hughes.
0:55:30 > 0:55:31You asked the question.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35I'll come back to you after we've heard from Simon Hughes.
0:55:35 > 0:55:39Listen, I represent the Old Kent Road, the Elephant & Castle,
0:55:39 > 0:55:43very proud to do so. What you raised is a real issue, yeah?
0:55:43 > 0:55:48I accept, I accept that for people born here,
0:55:48 > 0:55:50particularly for people whose families
0:55:50 > 0:55:52come from London for generations,
0:55:52 > 0:55:57they have seen a very large increase in people, quotes, not like them.
0:55:57 > 0:55:59I accept that completely.
0:55:59 > 0:56:02I do think, like Michael, that the last government had
0:56:02 > 0:56:06two significant failures for which they need to be held to account.
0:56:06 > 0:56:10One, they made an error in allowing the transition period which we could
0:56:10 > 0:56:14have had, when Poland and countries joined the EU, not to be applied.
0:56:14 > 0:56:17We were the only country in the EU to allow that,
0:56:17 > 0:56:21- so of course they came here. Hang on, David.- Hang on, David.
0:56:21 > 0:56:24- Do you regret all those Poles? - Of course I don't,
0:56:24 > 0:56:27but it was a mistake because the volume of people who came over,
0:56:27 > 0:56:29in my judgment, I said it at the time,
0:56:29 > 0:56:33I thought would cause a tension, which it did.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35The other thing is that under Labour,
0:56:35 > 0:56:38the policing of our borders was hopeless. Hopeless.
0:56:38 > 0:56:42The UKBA, we had no system for checking anybody out,
0:56:42 > 0:56:45and we had a pretty lousy system for controlling our borders.
0:56:45 > 0:56:48And what do you say to the lady here who asked the original question,
0:56:48 > 0:56:50before we come to the end of the programme?
0:56:50 > 0:56:53I was responding to her question. There is...
0:56:53 > 0:56:55- Hasn't the EU made all of this worse?- No, listen.
0:56:55 > 0:57:00They've made us keep our borders open. Yes, they have.
0:57:00 > 0:57:04We need to police our own borders. We need to make our own decisions.
0:57:04 > 0:57:06We don't need the EU to run our country.
0:57:06 > 0:57:09- You can take that view, I disagree, I'll tell you why.- I know you do.
0:57:09 > 0:57:14I'll tell you why, we in the UK have retained our right to have
0:57:14 > 0:57:17passport and border control, unlike other countries, and I support that.
0:57:17 > 0:57:21But this government, both parties in the government,
0:57:21 > 0:57:23are very clear that they are addressing this issue.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27We can't change the rules on the European Union
0:57:27 > 0:57:29because it's a free trade, free movement idea.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32And there are two and a half million people who are British in other
0:57:32 > 0:57:35parts of the European Union because they chose to go there.
0:57:35 > 0:57:39Simon, I'm going to have to stop you.
0:57:39 > 0:57:42I'm going to have to stop you if I can.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44I'm afraid we've come to the end of our hour.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46- I'm sorry to those of you who... - AUDIENCE GROANS
0:57:46 > 0:57:49- Well, what...! - LAUGHTER
0:57:49 > 0:57:54What can I do? Another half hour!
0:57:54 > 0:57:57I'm sorry, our hour is up.
0:57:57 > 0:58:00Next week, we're going to be in Nottingham.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03We'll have the Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander there,
0:58:03 > 0:58:05and Nick Hewer, the star of The Apprentice,
0:58:05 > 0:58:07on the panel in Nottingham. A week after that,
0:58:07 > 0:58:09we're going to be in Warrington the day after the Budget.
0:58:09 > 0:58:12So, either Nottingham or Warrington, if you want to come,
0:58:12 > 0:58:15the address is on the bottom of the screen there, the website,
0:58:15 > 0:58:17or you can call us on...
0:58:19 > 0:58:22If you're listening to this or have been on 5 Live, you can
0:58:22 > 0:58:25continue the debate - Question Time Extra Time follows immediately.
0:58:25 > 0:58:29My thanks to our panel here and to all of you who came to Barking
0:58:29 > 0:58:33for this edition of Question Time. Until next Thursday, good night.
0:58:33 > 0:58:36APPLAUSE