:00:07. > :00:20.Tonight, we are in Leeds. Welcome to Question Time.
:00:21. > :00:23.Welcome to you at home, to our audience who will be putting
:00:24. > :00:28.questions to the panel, who do not know the questions until they hear
:00:29. > :00:31.them. Labour's Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper. President
:00:32. > :00:38.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. UKIP's communities
:00:39. > :00:42.spokesman, Suzanne Evans. Writer and chairman of The National Trust,
:00:43. > :00:57.Simon Jenkins. And the Conservative MP Conor Burns.
:00:58. > :01:05.The first question, please, from Martin Mullen. Should British high
:01:06. > :01:11.schools have airport style security installed following the tragic
:01:12. > :01:15.murder of Anne Maguire? This dreadful event earlier this week.
:01:16. > :01:22.Should there be airport style security installed in schools, ,
:01:23. > :01:26.Bourbons? Let me start by directly answering the question, no, I do not
:01:27. > :01:30.think there should be airport style security in schools. This has been a
:01:31. > :01:35.tragic, appalling incident in this school in this community. But we
:01:36. > :01:40.make our worst laws in this country when we legislate on the back of a
:01:41. > :01:43.very emotional situations. The worst thing politicians can ever say is
:01:44. > :01:49.more I am going to legislate to ensure that ex never happens again.
:01:50. > :01:53.If you see some footage in American schools, where it is like going into
:01:54. > :01:57.a war is own to get into a classroom, I do not want to go down
:01:58. > :02:01.that route. Can I say a word about the tragic event at Corpus Christi
:02:02. > :02:06.College and the murder of Anne Maguire? The more one finds out
:02:07. > :02:09.about it, the more poignant it becomes. 40 years of service to that
:02:10. > :02:16.school, to different generations of new polls. Children of former pupils
:02:17. > :02:20.coming to pay tribute to her. The fact that she was in school, helping
:02:21. > :02:24.her students get the very best start in life, on her day off, the fact
:02:25. > :02:29.that she was only one term away from retirement, all adds to the
:02:30. > :02:34.poignancy of those events. I remember when my own headmaster
:02:35. > :02:41.retired, and I dug out his retirement speech. I was educated in
:02:42. > :02:45.a Catholic school. He talked about how, I hurt with you when some tried
:02:46. > :02:50.periodically to bring the violence of society into the school
:02:51. > :02:54.community. But the worst thing that we could do is to destroy that
:02:55. > :03:00.school community by making it not a place of learning but a place of
:03:01. > :03:04.fear. And can I say quickly, we have all, I imagine, thought about
:03:05. > :03:08.teachers who have made a real difference to us. Anne Maguire's
:03:09. > :03:12.murder touched a chord in the nation. And I hope that, through her
:03:13. > :03:16.death, we will shine a light in the fact that in all the schools in this
:03:17. > :03:21.country we are so blessed to have the dedication of so many teachers,
:03:22. > :03:23.for whom teaching is not a job but a vocation that they dedicate their
:03:24. > :03:33.lives to. APPLAUSE
:03:34. > :03:38.So, the question is, should high schools have airport style security
:03:39. > :03:44.after this murder. Simon Jenkins. No, of course they
:03:45. > :03:47.should not. I agree with everything that has been said and the whole
:03:48. > :03:55.panel will share that feeling at the moment. All that I would say in
:03:56. > :04:00.addition is that the concept of fear as a driver of policy is really
:04:01. > :04:04.dangerous. I am a Londoner and I see on the streets of London police with
:04:05. > :04:09.guns all the time. They are there because someone, somewhere has said
:04:10. > :04:12.there is a slight risk of a terrorist attack. All right, there
:04:13. > :04:18.is a slight risk. Everyone goes about with slight risks attached to
:04:19. > :04:22.life. If you give into that slight risk, given to the policy of fear,
:04:23. > :04:27.you capitulate to it, you give into it. I don't think that is what we
:04:28. > :04:31.should do. The one thing we can take from these tragedies is a reinforced
:04:32. > :04:40.determination not to give into the politics and policies of fear. The
:04:41. > :04:43.question was, should we have airport style security in schools, and I
:04:44. > :04:49.absolutely agree that laws made in haste are bad laws. When I was 15
:04:50. > :04:53.years old I went to a school exchange trip to France and spent a
:04:54. > :04:57.week in a French school. I was horrified that there was a high
:04:58. > :05:01.security fence around and security guards inside. It was such a
:05:02. > :05:06.contrast to the beautiful rural school I was privileged to go to in
:05:07. > :05:11.Shropshire. I thought, please may our schools in Britain never been
:05:12. > :05:17.like this. The woman in the third row from the back. Instead of
:05:18. > :05:21.police, maybe there should be a type of person, if any of the pupils have
:05:22. > :05:26.concerns or any thoughts like that, maybe somebody there as a counsellor
:05:27. > :05:32.in a school, instead of airport style security, because that will
:05:33. > :05:39.just strike fear into pupils. Some different preventative measure.
:05:40. > :05:43.Yvette Cooper. I also think it would be completely wrong to have airport
:05:44. > :05:49.style security, not just in Corpus Christi, but in other schools as
:05:50. > :05:53.well. Everybody has been struck by the outpouring of support, as well
:05:54. > :05:58.as the grief, not just for Anne Maguire and her family, but for the
:05:59. > :06:02.whole school. It is a tribute to the headteacher, to the school itself,
:06:03. > :06:05.that they have worked so hard to support all of the pupils at such an
:06:06. > :06:10.awful time with such a dreadful thing to happen. I think as a result
:06:11. > :06:13.we should listen to the headteacher, listen to the community, and to what
:06:14. > :06:19.they have said, which is that they want to keep the community a part of
:06:20. > :06:21.the school because it is the community that supported them
:06:22. > :06:24.through such a dreadful tragedy as well. We should hear their views and
:06:25. > :06:32.support them. APPLAUSE
:06:33. > :06:36.There are some schools with metal detectors at the gates, aren't
:06:37. > :06:40.there? I think there is a big difference
:06:41. > :06:44.between schools where they had problems, for example, with teenage
:06:45. > :06:48.gangs over a considerable period of time, and where the headteacher
:06:49. > :06:53.themselves says they think there are some safety issues that need to be
:06:54. > :06:58.addressed, and a situation like this where nobody is saying that was the
:06:59. > :07:03.circumstance at Corpus Christi. In fact, circumstances were very
:07:04. > :07:08.different. I totally disagree with the fact that we should bring in
:07:09. > :07:15.airport style scammers and all that. It is very intimidating. I happen to
:07:16. > :07:19.work in the community and I knew Anne Maguire very well because I
:07:20. > :07:23.also work with the church. The government should be bringing in an
:07:24. > :07:28.intervention for these pupils. But nothing is being done to ensure that
:07:29. > :07:32.the problems are resolved. The government is not doing anything.
:07:33. > :07:38.There are so many cutbacks already within the Department for Education
:07:39. > :07:43.which has made a very negative impact on the schools and
:07:44. > :07:47.headteachers. Teachers have a problem time with the children.
:07:48. > :07:53.Children don't listen any more, so we have to come in and intervene,
:07:54. > :07:58.and it is not working. Teachers also should be guaranteed safety in the
:07:59. > :08:04.school. Policies should come in to play on all these things. What are
:08:05. > :08:08.your memories of her? She was a fantastic woman, very God-fearing.
:08:09. > :08:13.She played instruments, she loved every pupil. She treated everybody
:08:14. > :08:16.as if they were her own children. She had a passion to ensure that
:08:17. > :08:24.every child succeeds in the school. APPLAUSE
:08:25. > :08:32.I feel that teachers are under that much pressure with statistics,
:08:33. > :08:35.targets. They are so pressured into trying to
:08:36. > :08:38.make the school look good based on what the government is making them
:08:39. > :08:42.do, they do not have time to go back to the drawing board and look at the
:08:43. > :08:47.basic needs that children are wanting, because they are too busy
:08:48. > :08:51.trying to get the stats are up, like exams. In a couple of weeks my
:08:52. > :08:54.daughter is doing her exams. In year six, everything is about the exams
:08:55. > :08:57.and teachers do not have the time to be looking at the emotional
:08:58. > :09:05.well-being of children and the government needs to address this.
:09:06. > :09:09.Tim Farron. I know that is not the question, but you could not be more
:09:10. > :09:13.right. We need to value teachers and allow them to teach and not spend
:09:14. > :09:17.half their time doing things that are about ticking boxes and
:09:18. > :09:21.conforming to league tables and so on. It is a huge distraction and has
:09:22. > :09:27.been a wrong direction for education policy for 30 years. But to answer
:09:28. > :09:33.Martin's question, of course there should not be airport security or
:09:34. > :09:36.anything like it in our schools. It is hugely tempting when something as
:09:37. > :09:41.heartbreaking and bewildering as this takes place, for somebody who
:09:42. > :09:46.lives the kind of lives that we do in politics, to come up with a nice,
:09:47. > :09:51.simple, neat solution, and I haven't got one. I haven't got one. In the
:09:52. > :09:55.24-hour media world we live in, there is a desire to keep the story
:09:56. > :09:59.going, find another way of talking about it, keep it fresh. Let's
:10:00. > :10:02.instead stand in solidarity with the family and with Corpus Christi and
:10:03. > :10:08.recognise this as an appalling tragedy. For those of us who are not
:10:09. > :10:11.from Leeds and did not know Corpus Christi College until this moment
:10:12. > :10:16.and what a wonderful school community it is, what a dreadful way
:10:17. > :10:20.to find out. We have found out what an outstanding community it is, how
:10:21. > :10:23.fantastically people have stood with one another, what leadership the
:10:24. > :10:27.headteacher has shown, and what tremendous love and affection people
:10:28. > :10:29.at the school have shown. I am certain that Anne Maguire would be
:10:30. > :10:37.proud of all of you. APPLAUSE
:10:38. > :10:44.You asked the question originally. What do you think? There should be
:10:45. > :10:49.some form of added security at schools but I do think that airport
:10:50. > :10:53.style security is a bridge too far. Maybe somebody like a police
:10:54. > :10:56.community support officer. Or maybe somebody children can go to if they
:10:57. > :11:04.have any concerns, not just to protect children but teachers as
:11:05. > :11:08.well. And you on the right, sir. I doubt if airport style security
:11:09. > :11:12.would be effective. It is quite easy to take a piece of plastic into the
:11:13. > :11:16.school, or a piece of sharpened bone would have the same effect as a
:11:17. > :11:19.knife, so airport style security would be a waste of time. OK, let's
:11:20. > :11:25.go on. Just a reminder that you can join
:11:26. > :11:47.the debate on text or Twitter. Let's take a question now from
:11:48. > :11:53.Carolyn Booth-Jones, please. In light of recent news, is it fair to
:11:54. > :11:58.describe UKIP as a racist party? Is it fair to describe UKIP,
:11:59. > :12:04.represented here by Suzanne Evans, as a racist party? Tim Farron. I
:12:05. > :12:08.wouldn't say so. Clearly, there are individuals in UKIP who have come to
:12:09. > :12:15.the fore with opinions that would make the BNP wince. And you have the
:12:16. > :12:19.French National front reaching out to UKIP. I guess there is a sense
:12:20. > :12:21.where that would be a source of great embarrassment, but that is
:12:22. > :12:28.wrong to start playing the man rather than the ball. It was Barbara
:12:29. > :12:32.Roche from Labour who did this. My take is that in one sense the UKIP
:12:33. > :12:37.position, particularly on the European Union, is clear, and I kind
:12:38. > :12:42.of respect it, actually. If you want to leave the European Union, and I
:12:43. > :12:45.think it would risk several million jobs on our ability to tackle
:12:46. > :12:49.climate change, threaten a union that has helped keep peace in Europe
:12:50. > :12:52.for over 50 years, it would stop us catching criminals across borders,
:12:53. > :12:56.but if that is what you want, you know who you should vote for. If you
:12:57. > :13:01.believe those things are bad and it would be anti patriotic to do those
:13:02. > :13:05.things, I hope you will support the Liberal Democrats instead. The
:13:06. > :13:08.questions about these remarks which have led to people being suspended
:13:09. > :13:12.from UKIP, like saying Lenny Henry should go back to a Black Country
:13:13. > :13:16.and all the rest, does that make you think it is a racist party, or just
:13:17. > :13:21.one that attracts them? Those individuals are guilty of racism and
:13:22. > :13:24.have made appalling quotes and have appalling back history, including
:13:25. > :13:29.the guy who was on the party political broadcast the other week.
:13:30. > :13:34.We should be very careful in not trying to dismiss an entire
:13:35. > :13:37.political party. First of all, it is unfair. Having said that, UKIP up to
:13:38. > :13:41.account for some of the people they put up on their behalf, who have
:13:42. > :13:49.some of the most objectionable views. I will come to Suzanne Evans
:13:50. > :13:53.in a -- Yvette Cooper. This was described as a racist campaign by
:13:54. > :13:58.Barbara Roche, former Labour Immigration Minister. Do you agree?
:13:59. > :14:03.It is not racist to talk about immigration, to say you are worried
:14:04. > :14:07.about immigration, it is not racist to say you feel strongly about
:14:08. > :14:09.leaving Europe. I do think it is racist to say that Lenny Henry
:14:10. > :14:14.should leave the country because of the colour of his skin, as one of
:14:15. > :14:22.the Enfield candidates did say. APPLAUSE
:14:23. > :14:27.And there are other UKIP candidates who have said things I believe are
:14:28. > :14:33.racist. The old candidate who said that
:14:34. > :14:37.mosques should be pulled down. There is a Walsall candidate who has said
:14:38. > :14:41.Mo Farah cannot be British. We should challenge that race is where
:14:42. > :14:45.ever we hear it and UKIP should do so, too. The right and responsible
:14:46. > :14:49.thing for UKIP to do is to expel those candidates, take them off the
:14:50. > :14:54.ballot paper and not to be asking people to vote for them. If they do
:14:55. > :14:57.that, we can have a sensible conversation about the serious and
:14:58. > :15:01.legitimate issues, whether around Europe, around immigration,
:15:02. > :15:07.important issues. But they should not be marred by candidates pursuing
:15:08. > :15:11.divisive views. Just before I come to UKIP, what Barbara Roche said was
:15:12. > :15:17.that they are deploying the language and tactics used by openly racist
:15:18. > :15:22.parties like the BNP. Is that an accurate description? I have
:15:23. > :15:25.criticised the government for their go home adverts which they did last
:15:26. > :15:30.summer, which I think Drew on the language of the National Front.
:15:31. > :15:37.Unfortunately, this is your government which is doing it. When
:15:38. > :15:41.they were put up, the Labour opposition were silent and that of
:15:42. > :15:45.the Liberal Democrat to speak out. Those adverts were going round for
:15:46. > :15:54.months. You have Liberal Democrat ministers in the Home Office. It was
:15:55. > :15:59.two or three days. Unfortunately, that is not true, Tim. Trying to be
:16:00. > :16:02.outside the government when you are voting for every single thing that
:16:03. > :16:07.the government does just will not wash.
:16:08. > :16:11.The Labour spokes people, who were questioned about those racist vans,
:16:12. > :16:17.saying nothing because they were worried it would put off their
:16:18. > :16:22.voters I remember them saying. It was outrageous that any government -
:16:23. > :16:26.This is a fiction. It's also a distraction. We should bring UKIP
:16:27. > :16:31.back into this fight and leave the two of you for a moment. Suzanne
:16:32. > :16:37.Evans. Thank you. No, UKIP is not a racist party. I would certainly not
:16:38. > :16:41.be in it if it were. Neither does it attract racists in particular. We're
:16:42. > :16:46.currently running in the European elections at 38%. So that means a
:16:47. > :16:51.good sort of, just over a third of this audience, if you are a typical
:16:52. > :16:55.audience of the British voter, will be voting for UKIP. Technically that
:16:56. > :17:00.means you could be called racist. I know you're not. I know you're not.
:17:01. > :17:08.You know that you are not racist either. The problem that we've had
:17:09. > :17:13.is that UKIP has risen phenomenon Ali. We are being put under a huge
:17:14. > :17:17.amount of scrutiny. I have no problem with scrutiny. Everybody who
:17:18. > :17:20.stands for election for UKIP or any other party, I'm sure my colleagues
:17:21. > :17:26.would agree, must be subject to scrutiny. We cannot expect to stand
:17:27. > :17:30.for public office unless we are fit for public office. It has to be a
:17:31. > :17:37.fair playing field. How many of you in this audience know that seven
:17:38. > :17:42.councillors in the London borough of Harrow, all black minority ethnic
:17:43. > :17:45.councillors resigned from the Labour Party because they thought it was
:17:46. > :17:51.racist and discriminated against them? Hands up how many know that
:17:52. > :17:58.practically none of you. Maybe you should address it is to Miss Cooper.
:17:59. > :18:02.You would like to ask the audience. You can't ask the audience. Nobody
:18:03. > :18:06.put their hand up. Nobody knows that. A serious issue. It didn't
:18:07. > :18:10.make the national headlines or the lead story on the broadcast news.
:18:11. > :18:15.Barbara Roche, who we talked about, set up this campaign group. We know
:18:16. > :18:20.people being through our candidate's Twitter accounts. They are not doing
:18:21. > :18:24.it to other parties. Do you want to answer the charge. Do you know about
:18:25. > :18:27.this? There is always scrutiny of candidates. There rightly should be.
:18:28. > :18:30.Our view in the Labour Party is, where we have the suggestion of
:18:31. > :18:35.racism it should always be challenged. That is my point about
:18:36. > :18:42.what UKIP need to do. They need to ex-compel candidates expresses
:18:43. > :18:47.racist views. We do oond we have expelled all of them. That is not
:18:48. > :18:52.correct. I hope you do quickly. We can move on to a serious debate
:18:53. > :18:56.about the issues. The danger is that this row is preventing us from
:18:57. > :19:00.discussing what I think are genuine issues and concerns that people
:19:01. > :19:04.have. Some of them have been hijacked by UKIP, when there are
:19:05. > :19:08.important things, whether it is about immigration or the need for
:19:09. > :19:12.controls on immigration or to tackle the concerns that people have about
:19:13. > :19:15.the way that cheap migrant labour is exploited, to under cut wages and
:19:16. > :19:22.jobs. We need to deal with those sorts of issues. If we don't, then
:19:23. > :19:27.it's easy for a party like UKIP to build up anger rather than provide
:19:28. > :19:33.answers. It's answers that I think we need. We need to have a debate.
:19:34. > :19:41.By refusing to tackle these issues when you were in government for 13
:19:42. > :19:47.years. Barbara Roche and cross-party campaign that Barbara set up. No
:19:48. > :19:51.longer Labour? She is a Labour Party member. It was a cross-party
:19:52. > :19:54.campaign. My point is you need to have a serious debate about the
:19:55. > :19:59.issues and deal with individuals. OK. You, sir. My certain is that
:20:00. > :20:05.we've been talking about vetting candidates, however, obviously,
:20:06. > :20:09.there have been several in just recent history UKIP candidates. My
:20:10. > :20:12.question would be, how can we be sure that you are vetting your
:20:13. > :20:18.candidates? These aren't just views expressed in meetings that people
:20:19. > :20:26.have reported on. This is on social media. And, how - my question is,
:20:27. > :20:33.how did they get away with it? In the first place? Yes. The idea of
:20:34. > :20:37.vetting political candidates for being fruitcakes fascinates me. You
:20:38. > :20:40.wouldn't have many candidates left, some of the ones I know. I don't
:20:41. > :20:44.think it's a crime to be a fruitcake. I sympathies with
:20:45. > :20:48.Suzanne, they are under extraordinary scrutiny at the
:20:49. > :20:53.moment, all fringe parties tend to be. The thing I worry, the word
:20:54. > :21:00."racist" it is like a law that says when you begin to lose an argument
:21:01. > :21:04.you mention Hitler, when you lose an argument you mention racism. A
:21:05. > :21:06.dangerous way trying to resolve a reasonable political debate. The
:21:07. > :21:09.reasonable political debate to my mind is about the nature of British
:21:10. > :21:13.borders and immigrants into this country. How far we can handle
:21:14. > :21:17.particular numbers of immigrants. What is the nature of citizenship in
:21:18. > :21:20.Britain? Real questions, which are not related to race. I don't think
:21:21. > :21:23.it helps the debate about them, which many people have been
:21:24. > :21:26.concerned about for a long time now, largely ignored by the major
:21:27. > :21:31.political parties, to say the people who do raise them are racist. That
:21:32. > :21:36.is wrong. OK. The woman there, on the left and in black-and-white.
:21:37. > :21:42.Yes. I'd like to read you a bit from the UKIP leaflet that came through
:21:43. > :21:46.my door. Speed up. Let's have it. "These are anxious and trouble times
:21:47. > :21:49.as crisis has fold crisis. Our politicians are doing nothing in the
:21:50. > :21:55.face of dangers rearing up around us. Violent crime erupts in our
:21:56. > :22:02.cities. It goes on" it's the politics of fear. Everything we hear
:22:03. > :22:09.that comes from UKIP. APPLAUSE
:22:10. > :22:12.To answer the question directly. I don't think UKIP is necessarily a
:22:13. > :22:16.racist party. Although I think they have racist people in it. As they
:22:17. > :22:21.emerge they are dealing with them. That is clear. The guy who talked
:22:22. > :22:27.about Lenny henny going back to a black country. I was reminded after
:22:28. > :22:31.Lenny Henry's comments after Enoch powels speech where he offered him
:22:32. > :22:35.?1,000 to go home. Which was generous as a ticket to Birmingham
:22:36. > :22:41.cost ?10. My worry about UKIP is not that are a racist party, they are an
:22:42. > :22:47.ineffective party. We saw what happened when we elected people from
:22:48. > :22:52.the European parliament have not turned up and done the job. David
:22:53. > :23:02.Cameron negotiated in the council in the E EU Summit a cut of 34 billion
:23:03. > :23:05.to euros. Nigel Farage and seven other UKIP MEPs failed to turn up to
:23:06. > :23:09.support the resolution that implemented that cut. I think they
:23:10. > :23:13.are a vent for protest. They are whipping up anger. Speaking to some
:23:14. > :23:17.of the worst fears and frustrations of austerity and concern about
:23:18. > :23:23.immigration. I think the sooner that they actually spark the mainstream
:23:24. > :23:26.parties, as Yvette says rightly, to engage in the arguments seriously
:23:27. > :23:32.the better. The sooner they will recede to where they came from.
:23:33. > :23:36.There are Conservative councillors who made offensive comments? We all
:23:37. > :23:42.have people in our parties. Is the only party that will not allow
:23:43. > :23:46.former members of the BNP to join. One lied last week. We kicked him
:23:47. > :23:55.out straightaway. The Conservative have a former BNP member standing as
:23:56. > :24:00.a candidate. The Lib Dems have someone convicted of a racially
:24:01. > :24:05.aggravated assault. We don't have the monopoly of the stupidity. You
:24:06. > :24:09.are ahead of the field. No. Let me come back to that.
:24:10. > :24:13.APPLAUSE The man up there with the beard on,
:24:14. > :24:17.I mean beard, not on! Not suggesting you came in disguise. We are talking
:24:18. > :24:21.about racism as if it should be a big issue in today's world. We are
:24:22. > :24:25.all human beings, we are equal in society. Different cultures and
:24:26. > :24:30.different nations made Great Britain today what it has been over
:24:31. > :24:34.centuries. United Kingdom regardless of anyone's colour or beliefs. If we
:24:35. > :24:40.work together we are human beings at the end of the day in a peaceful
:24:41. > :24:43.society. APPLAUSE
:24:44. > :24:48.UKIP is not classed as a racist party, then that's fine. Do you not
:24:49. > :24:53.tend to agree the way you go about your campaign provokes the general
:24:54. > :24:57.public to be racist. I recently heard when Nigel Farage was visiting
:24:58. > :25:03.Wales the visit had to be stopped because of UKIP supporters and
:25:04. > :25:11.fellow people arguing over racism? No. No. Can I just answer that.
:25:12. > :25:15.Briefly? No. I mean, Nigel Farage is possibly being stopped from speaking
:25:16. > :25:20.at public meetings at the moment because of antifascist groups which,
:25:21. > :25:25.frankly, are among the most facist people I have encountered. There is
:25:26. > :25:30.a hard wing in this party of anti-UKIP feeling people who want to
:25:31. > :25:33.pleat completely shut down the debate. They will not allow free
:25:34. > :25:37.speech. These people have no interest in democracy. That is
:25:38. > :25:42.something that UKIP stands for fundamentally. All right. A couple
:25:43. > :25:45.could of quick figures. We have fielding 2,235 candidates in the
:25:46. > :25:50.local elections on 22nd May. More than we've ever fieldled before. The
:25:51. > :25:55.amount of people that have been caught out doing something wrong so
:25:56. > :26:04.far, it's about 0.3%. Let us put that into context. In 2011, 0.61% of
:26:05. > :26:12.members of parliament were in prison. We are doing a lot better
:26:13. > :26:16.than MPs in the House of Commons. Less non-statistics. A point from
:26:17. > :26:20.you in the middle there. The time it took UKIP to respond and condemn the
:26:21. > :26:25.Lenny Henry tweet say it is all. They are bigots and use scare
:26:26. > :26:30.tactics to try and get votes. One hand up there. I will take from you
:26:31. > :26:34.as well. We will then move on. If UKIP are coming across as a racist
:26:35. > :26:41.party due to a few members saying some racist comments, does it mean
:26:42. > :26:49.that Labour are all fraudsters after the (inaudible) scandal? Is
:26:50. > :26:55.Absolutely. We are four months off an incredibly important vote as to
:26:56. > :27:01.whether the United Kingdom stands together. UKIP are focussing on
:27:02. > :27:05.fear, and it makes it more likely this country will fragment. We are
:27:06. > :27:11.better together full stop. The mistake UKIP made was to go for
:27:12. > :27:19.immigration. It was about Europe. UKIP is about Europe, not
:27:20. > :27:24.immigration. Immigration is, in a sense, the politics of fear. That is
:27:25. > :27:27.the last thing you want in politics. Immigration is what people in this
:27:28. > :27:32.country tell us they are concerned about. 60% of black minority ethnic
:27:33. > :27:40.community people say they are worried about. We are politicians we
:27:41. > :27:43.cannot ignore 70%, the major - We should be talking about immigration.
:27:44. > :27:46.We should be talking about immigration. We should talk about
:27:47. > :27:49.everything. This election is about Europe. It's right to talk about
:27:50. > :27:53.immigration. It's something that people are concerned about. We said
:27:54. > :27:57.that we, in the Labour Party, got things wrong in Government in
:27:58. > :28:02.immigration. - Are you saying immigration is not a European issue?
:28:03. > :28:07.Of course, it is. Electing members of the European parliament. I'm keen
:28:08. > :28:10.on elections being on what the election is about. It's about
:28:11. > :28:14.electing a member of the European parliament. If it was about electing
:28:15. > :28:17.members Members of the European Parliament do you think members
:28:18. > :28:21.would take it as seriously as they seem to be. I come back to the
:28:22. > :28:26.question about the politics of fear. People are afraid of things. One of
:28:27. > :28:31.the reason why I admire UKIP in this sense is they had the guts to say,
:28:32. > :28:34.you suppressed this debate for a quarter of the century. We raised
:28:35. > :28:37.the questions and will give you a party you can vote for. I respect
:28:38. > :28:40.this. This particular election, I care about Europe one way or
:28:41. > :28:45.another, I'm sorry if actually the election is no longer about Europe.
:28:46. > :28:48.It is about immigration and the tendency to couch that in racist
:28:49. > :28:55.terms. Let us move on to another question. Thank you very much. Peter
:28:56. > :29:00.Pickard, please. Let us get into this other topic. Will Ed Miliband's
:29:01. > :29:06.proposals on rent help or hinder the rental market? The proposals made
:29:07. > :29:09.today by Ed Miliband to control rents and make rental agreements
:29:10. > :29:17.last for three-years to cap the increase in rents and all the rest
:29:18. > :29:20.of it. His aim being to cut the cost of living for people, nine million
:29:21. > :29:26.living in rental accommodation. Has he stolen a march, Tim Farron, with
:29:27. > :29:30.this on the coalition's policy? I don't think. Is it a good idea? Some
:29:31. > :29:35.of what he said today is a good idea. Some of it really isn't. He
:29:36. > :29:39.has shown he has identified the problem, Peter, but not understood
:29:40. > :29:44.it. The reason why private rents are high is because of a lack of supply.
:29:45. > :29:47.It's blindingly obvious. Amongst the things that, you know, the Labour
:29:48. > :29:54.Party should be embarrassed about with its 13 year in power they built
:29:55. > :29:58.fewer council houses than Margaret Thatcher. That took some doing. That
:29:59. > :30:02.is why rents are as high as they are. The answer is to build
:30:03. > :30:06.affordable homes. How do you do that? Identifying new fresh places.
:30:07. > :30:12.It is about regenerating the north of England in a way which will be
:30:13. > :30:16.making advantage of what is Britain's largest untapped resource,
:30:17. > :30:18.which is much of the north of this country, this part of the United
:30:19. > :30:24.country, this part of theUnited United Kingdom. In favour of a rent
:30:25. > :30:27.cap? No, I'm not. In theory a great idea, in practice you will crush
:30:28. > :30:31.supply. You will put people out of homes who would have been in homes
:30:32. > :30:37.otherwise. You reduce rent by increasing supply. You do that by
:30:38. > :30:41.allowing Housing Associations just want to be allowed to bory against
:30:42. > :30:45.the value of their stock. We need 300,000 houses a year. We will not
:30:46. > :30:48.do it by tinkering. Ed Miliband is wrong if he thinks the housing
:30:49. > :30:50.crisis is caused by too much regulation. It's caused by not
:30:51. > :31:05.enough building. OK. So it is the wrong problem that Ed
:31:06. > :31:10.Miliband is going for. I don't think so. We have to do both. We need to
:31:11. > :31:13.build houses. We need far more homes and we need to help the 9 million
:31:14. > :31:19.people in rented accommodation across the country. Tim can sound
:31:20. > :31:25.indignant, but the reality is that under this government we have had
:31:26. > :31:31.the lowest level of house-building. We build more than you did. I did
:31:32. > :31:34.not interrupt you. The lowest level of house-building since the 1920s,
:31:35. > :31:38.and that is the consequence of what this government have been doing.
:31:39. > :31:42.Yes, we need to build more homes but we also need to help people who
:31:43. > :31:45.cannot wait for homes to be built and are living in rented
:31:46. > :31:48.accommodation, often with children. If you go back a few decades,
:31:49. > :31:51.families with children would think they would be maybe in social
:31:52. > :31:57.housing, maybe in their own homes having bought them. Many people now
:31:58. > :32:00.are really struggling, if they don't have the bank of mum and dad to rely
:32:01. > :32:04.on, to be able to buy their own home and get on the mortgage ladder. They
:32:05. > :32:07.are in rented accommodation with their kids, never knowing whether
:32:08. > :32:12.the landlord might say, sorry, you have to move out, or, sorry, I am
:32:13. > :32:17.going to put the rent up, and they have to move away from their
:32:18. > :32:19.children's school, a neighbour who does the baby-sitting. That
:32:20. > :32:24.insecurity is really damaging for families. That's why I think you
:32:25. > :32:28.need longer term tenancies, three-year tenancies, and a ceiling
:32:29. > :32:36.on the rent increases that landlords can apply during that three-year
:32:37. > :32:40.period. All right. I think Yvette Cooper is being disingenuous. You
:32:41. > :32:44.can't turn on the volume of house-building on and off like a
:32:45. > :32:48.switch. It takes time. It was the great recession Labour brought in
:32:49. > :32:52.that brought the collapse in house-building and the number of
:32:53. > :32:57.houses being built, and that is starting to recover. What do you
:32:58. > :33:02.think of stopping rent increases? I am with Tim Farron. The issue is the
:33:03. > :33:07.supply of housing, not about how much. It seems the Labour policy is
:33:08. > :33:10.concerned about energy prices, and says, let's cap it, that's the
:33:11. > :33:15.solution, but does not address the underlying issue. Actually, whilst
:33:16. > :33:22.Ed Miliband was in power, he brought in these green taxes that raised the
:33:23. > :33:26.cost of energy. The man behind you. We need to build more houses, not
:33:27. > :33:27.come out with the gimmicks that Labour seems to all the time.
:33:28. > :33:38.APPLAUSE .
:33:39. > :33:42.We talk about the rental culture as if it is wrong and in places like
:33:43. > :33:47.France it is normal to rent for most of a person's life. I also accept
:33:48. > :33:51.there is a need for accommodation that is affordable. However, one of
:33:52. > :33:55.the things we missing is that the developers are wanting to do their
:33:56. > :33:59.new builds, and these are not affordable houses but expensive
:34:00. > :34:04.houses, on land that was formerly green belt. That is going to be
:34:05. > :34:09.destroyed for ever. There are places in many of the city centres, old
:34:10. > :34:12.Brownfield sites, that are ready to be redeveloped to make affordable
:34:13. > :34:18.homes for people who can live near where they work, and that will not
:34:19. > :34:22.happen in the outer suburbs. All it will do is make developers more
:34:23. > :34:25.wealthy and it will destroy our heritage, our children's and
:34:26. > :34:32.grandchildren's heritage, for ever. APPLAUSE
:34:33. > :34:40.There is a difference of opinion between Simon Jenkins for The
:34:41. > :34:44.National Trust, wearing his National Trust at, and the Conservative Party
:34:45. > :34:51.on the planning of this. Conor Burns, you answer first. Lets
:34:52. > :34:55.answer the question about the proposal by Ed Miliband. I often
:34:56. > :34:59.worry that what can appeared to be very good politics for a party can
:35:00. > :35:03.be very bad policy for the country. I fear that when a politician comes
:35:04. > :35:07.forward with a very simplistic answer to what is a very compensated
:35:08. > :35:13.problem, it is probably the wrong answer. Remember back to the Labour
:35:14. > :35:16.Party Conference when Ed Miliband was in Brighton and he appeared on
:35:17. > :35:20.the soapbox in the town centre and was asked, are you going to bring
:35:21. > :35:26.back socialism. His reply to that was, that is what I'm doing, sir. We
:35:27. > :35:30.are seeing a trend in some of these rather populist announcements. The
:35:31. > :35:35.gentleman referred a moment ago to the energy price freeze. No freeze
:35:36. > :35:40.before the freeze, no freeze guaranteed after, pure populism. We
:35:41. > :35:45.saw the suggestion he might nationalise land, take it away from
:35:46. > :35:49.private developers. I think this one is a bad idea, too. This is a
:35:50. > :35:52.compensated problem. We have to catch up from the fact that the last
:35:53. > :35:58.Labour government built fewer houses than any government since the 1920s.
:35:59. > :36:03.And we are trying to do that. We have over ?19.5 billion of public
:36:04. > :36:08.and private money going into housing. The number of first-time
:36:09. > :36:12.buyers is that a five year by and construction is at the highest level
:36:13. > :36:16.since 2007. But the point the gentleman made, you cannot simply
:36:17. > :36:21.turn on the tap and say, I want to develop 100,000 houses next year.
:36:22. > :36:32.But you turned it off. The government turn off the tap. I did
:36:33. > :36:38.not interrupt you. David is going to get very bored! When the
:36:39. > :36:41.Conservative Party left office, net immigration was 48,000 people into
:36:42. > :36:46.the country. At the end of the Labour government, it was 233,000.
:36:47. > :36:49.If you are going to welcome a number of new people into your country, you
:36:50. > :36:52.have to make sure you have a houses and infrastructure and all the
:36:53. > :36:57.things that people need when they come to live in the UK. So you're
:36:58. > :37:00.planning Minister is right to want to build more on greenfield sites to
:37:01. > :37:08.get the thing moving. That is the Tory policy on this. If he were
:37:09. > :37:12.here, you could ask him. He ain't, so I'm asking you. Some of the stuff
:37:13. > :37:16.we are encouraging with localism and encouraging councils take the lead,
:37:17. > :37:20.in Bournemouth I am seeing town centre that elements mixing retail
:37:21. > :37:27.and residential and getting the town centre moving. That is the sort of
:37:28. > :37:31.thing I want. Simon Jenkins. The idea that you increase rented
:37:32. > :37:42.accommodation by capping the rent is absurd. That is illiterate
:37:43. > :37:45.economics. I have to say I am mildly in favour of some safeguards for
:37:46. > :37:54.tenants, but the idea that you solve the problem by capping rent is like
:37:55. > :37:58.Castro, it is absurd. What do you mean by that? He fixed all of the
:37:59. > :38:02.rent in Havana and no house has been restored for about 30 years. If you
:38:03. > :38:07.want to wreck the housing market, cap the price. Coming back to the
:38:08. > :38:13.question on housing, you will never build your way out with house price
:38:14. > :38:17.rises by simply allowing the fields to let rip. It is stupid. It
:38:18. > :38:21.destroys what we value about the countryside, it is not necessary, it
:38:22. > :38:25.is caving in to a particular powerful lobby, the house-building
:38:26. > :38:31.lobby. They all want the same thing, rural sites for 300 volume units of
:38:32. > :38:34.housing. It is the most damaging thing to the countryside we have
:38:35. > :38:42.seen since the last war. It mustn't happen. But the resource, the real
:38:43. > :38:47.resource far housing in this country is in cities in underused property.
:38:48. > :38:52.There is a vast store of empty rooms. We have more empty rooms in
:38:53. > :38:54.Britain than any country in Europe. We are so hysterical about
:38:55. > :39:00.house-building because the lobby wants us to do that. Every week you
:39:01. > :39:02.will see a story about a chronic shortage of house-building. It is
:39:03. > :39:07.house Restoration we should be concentrating on. That is the green
:39:08. > :39:11.thing to do. Use existing city sites which are empty, where people now
:39:12. > :39:17.live, people want to work, people want to move from under the property
:39:18. > :39:20.into one that fits their needs. Make the urban housing market fluid. That
:39:21. > :39:27.is the way to solve the housing crisis.
:39:28. > :39:30.APPLAUSE Try and find some younger people in
:39:31. > :39:34.the audience who may be stuck in them entered accommodation, may
:39:35. > :39:35.choose to live in them to the accommodation.
:39:36. > :39:43.Oh, you put your hands down immediately. I think the problem is
:39:44. > :39:47.nothing to do with supply, but the type of housing. In Leeds, we have
:39:48. > :39:52.around 27,000 people on the council waiting list. We need more council
:39:53. > :40:03.houses. Both the Conservatives and Lib Dems have been selling off the
:40:04. > :40:07.housing, some of the right to buy schemes. We need a maths building
:40:08. > :40:11.programme of council housing, to take public sector housing back
:40:12. > :40:21.under public control. That is how we can control the rent.
:40:22. > :40:24.I want to make a point to the Conservative MP. When you try to
:40:25. > :40:31.pass the blame for current things to the Labour Party about immigration,
:40:32. > :40:36.it just makes me want to turn off. But to the gentleman that asked
:40:37. > :40:39.about housing, surely Ed Miliband should be concentrating on helping
:40:40. > :40:46.people get a mortgage and buy a house, rather than focusing on the
:40:47. > :40:50.rental market. You, in the front. Everyone keeps mentioning turning
:40:51. > :40:53.off the tap, turning it on for building houses and it can't be
:40:54. > :40:58.done. That is why we need more security measures for people in
:40:59. > :41:02.rented accommodation at the moment. Suzanne Evans. I don't want my
:41:03. > :41:08.countryside to be concreted over. APPLAUSE
:41:09. > :41:13.. At the moment we need to build one
:41:14. > :41:18.house every seven minutes to keep up with supply. Like it or not,
:41:19. > :41:25.migration is a factor in that. Net migration is still 212,000 each
:41:26. > :41:29.year, despite the fact that David Cameron promised to get it down to
:41:30. > :41:33.tens of thousands. I don't think he's going to be able to fulfil his
:41:34. > :41:37.manifesto promise by 2015 unless he shuts down the borders but everyone
:41:38. > :41:43.outside the EU, and I certainly don't want to see that happen. --
:41:44. > :41:47.shuts down the borders for everyone outside the EU. Homelessness is now
:41:48. > :41:52.caused in the main by the ending of private tenancies. But this
:41:53. > :41:55.reactionary policy brought in by Ed Miliband today, which has already
:41:56. > :41:59.been described by experts as possibly one of the most stupid
:42:00. > :42:05.policies ever invented, it really is not the answer. Before we leave
:42:06. > :42:10.this, Yvette Cooper, is this one of the most stupid policies ever
:42:11. > :42:14.invented, and Simon Jenkins says this was Castro -like, and would
:42:15. > :42:17.bring housing to disrepair if it was put through. It would mean nothing
:42:18. > :42:23.was built and repaired and the place would become like Cuba. The problem
:42:24. > :42:26.is that nobody on the panel is suggesting answers for people in the
:42:27. > :42:31.entered accommodation who find themselves in really insecure
:42:32. > :42:33.tenancies, and find that the landlord can suddenly increased
:42:34. > :42:40.their rent way above the local market, way above inflation. The
:42:41. > :42:45.normal tenancy, since Margaret Thatcher introduced it in the 1980s,
:42:46. > :42:50.the tenancy that most people can get is a six month tenancy. After that,
:42:51. > :42:54.you could be asked to move by your landlord with very short notice.
:42:55. > :42:58.What we are saying is the normal tenancy people should get is a
:42:59. > :43:02.three-year tenancy, to give people some security. The rent would still
:43:03. > :43:07.be negotiated, just as normal. The government would not set the rent,
:43:08. > :43:11.the council would not, it would be the normal market negotiation about
:43:12. > :43:14.what the rent would be. But in those three years, you would have some
:43:15. > :43:18.limits on the increases in the rent landlord could introduce, so that
:43:19. > :43:23.you could not just suddenly yourself being exploited, or unable to stay
:43:24. > :43:27.in the area where your kids are going to school. I think that is
:43:28. > :43:30.sensible intervention in the housing market because it is a way of
:43:31. > :43:34.helping people with the cost-of-living crisis that is really
:43:35. > :43:38.squeezing people. It is all very well to say it is like Castro, but
:43:39. > :43:43.if people are not providing answers, I think they are letting people
:43:44. > :43:49.down. Simon Jenkins, you are not providing answers. The answer is to
:43:50. > :43:53.free up the urban housing market, make it tax deductible to let out
:43:54. > :43:58.your spare room. Spare rooms are the problem, not housing in the
:43:59. > :44:03.countryside. Millions of spare rooms which ought to be liberated into the
:44:04. > :44:08.market and then rent will come down. One more point from the man in the
:44:09. > :44:11.second row from the back. It is comments like this that stop young
:44:12. > :44:16.people being interested in politics. It is an anomaly to say that this is
:44:17. > :44:21.going to help people in any kind of way. Surely this is the male of --
:44:22. > :44:26.the nail in the coffin, the cost-of-living crisis, this piece of
:44:27. > :44:31.spin which Labour has drawn out which has failed. Why do you think
:44:32. > :44:35.it won't work? Because the economy is on the up. Everything that has
:44:36. > :44:40.been said over the last three years regarding the economy is untrue.
:44:41. > :44:44.People are getting wealthier. It is spin like the cost-of-living crisis
:44:45. > :44:52.which is spiralling out of control. I think a lot of people are not
:44:53. > :45:01.feeling it. This is a funny question. Ron Fallows. Quickly. Are
:45:02. > :45:07.the panel breathing a I sigh of of relief at the news that Jeremy
:45:08. > :45:12.Paxman is to leave Newsnight? The politicians on the panel, I assume?
:45:13. > :45:17.I have no dog in this fight, myself. I don't think Simon Jenkins does.
:45:18. > :45:22.I'm gutted. I have been on Newsnight a couple of times. I've never been
:45:23. > :45:26.interviewed by Paxman. I better hurry up. I haves missed out. His
:45:27. > :45:30.strengths are in his expression on his face when people are answering
:45:31. > :45:33.the questions, as much as it is the questions themselves. Yeah. I think
:45:34. > :45:43.everybody will miss Jeremy Paxman. I think he is an institution. I have
:45:44. > :45:48.been too busy about worrying to play alongside a legendary Dimbleby. Good
:45:49. > :45:55.answer. Very flattering and quite right. David there is a vacancy,
:45:56. > :46:02.come on. On Newsnighting? You have to stay up all night. He should make
:46:03. > :46:05.way for an older man. I'm disappointed. Who can forget the
:46:06. > :46:09.time he was questioning Michael Howard he asked him the same
:46:10. > :46:14.question 12 times and Michael Howard still didn't answer. Fantastic. We
:46:15. > :46:19.immediate people like that to give us... I watched that. It was on
:46:20. > :46:22.today. It wasn't the same question. It was cleverer than that. The same
:46:23. > :46:26.question put slightly differently a lot of the time. It wasn't sitting
:46:27. > :46:30.there muttering the same old thing. Very good interview. In the middle
:46:31. > :46:37.of he said, "I don't want to be rude, but I have to ask this again.
:46:38. > :46:41." "I'm not trying to be funny or anything... Miss Miss He is less
:46:42. > :46:48.polite now. I have been on Newsnight. Great to be there. I was
:46:49. > :46:52.able to tweet the mortal line "I survived Paxman." We can go back to
:46:53. > :46:57.the state of the economy in general. We can take a question, important
:46:58. > :47:01.stuff. Libby Tinworth, please. Do the panel think steps should be
:47:02. > :47:05.taken to protect workers on zero-hours and temporary contracts?
:47:06. > :47:10.Does the panel think, say it again... Do the panel think steps
:47:11. > :47:15.should be taken to protect workers on zero-hours and temporary
:47:16. > :47:20.contracts? Which is, as we know, a lot of it about at the moment. What
:47:21. > :47:23.is your view, Libby? I think the Government should put something in
:47:24. > :47:29.place to support businesses so that we can, the workforce can have peace
:47:30. > :47:33.of mind. Things like rent much you don't know where you will be from
:47:34. > :47:36.week-to-week. If you can afford to live. Peace of mind for the
:47:37. > :47:41.workforce and make people want to get out there and enjoy working.
:47:42. > :47:45.What would you do, abolish the zero-hours contracts? Yeah. I think
:47:46. > :47:50.it definitely needs looking at. It's very hard to live not knowing where
:47:51. > :47:54.you are going to be and how much money you will bring into the family
:47:55. > :48:01.home. It's something that needs to be minimised, taken back. How long
:48:02. > :48:04.have you been on a temporary contract, zero-hours contract? Since
:48:05. > :48:08.August last year. Right, Conor Burns? Look, I think probably
:48:09. > :48:13.anybody on the panel who is a member of parliament will tell you that
:48:14. > :48:19.possibly the most distressing case that comes to you is someone who
:48:20. > :48:24.wants to work, and can't find the dignity of work. I have had a number
:48:25. > :48:30.of those since I was elected in 2010. Let us be clear, for some
:48:31. > :48:35.people, particularly those unemployed for some time, sdeer
:48:36. > :48:41.ehours contracts can better and can be a route back into full-time
:48:42. > :48:46.employment -- secure owe hours. Students, a lot of them welcome the
:48:47. > :48:48.flexibility that gives them to do part-time work. Should the
:48:49. > :48:52.Government do something about it? The answer is, this Government is
:48:53. > :48:55.doing something about it. This Government launched a consultation,
:48:56. > :49:00.the Department for Business, they have had over 30,000 responses. We
:49:01. > :49:02.have been talking to people on zero-hours contracts, talking to
:49:03. > :49:07.businesses. We have been talking to trade unions. That consultation
:49:08. > :49:12.closed on 14th March, the Government will come forward with a response
:49:13. > :49:16.soon. Now, that is something. We are, unlike the previous government,
:49:17. > :49:20.looking at it. We recognise there is a problem. We need to tackle those
:49:21. > :49:24.for whom zero-hours contracts are not the right thing. Can you define
:49:25. > :49:29.what the problem is. How can you have a contract if it doesn't say
:49:30. > :49:33.anything about how long you work? How can you be under a contract if
:49:34. > :49:36.they are not under obligation to offer you work. It's like when you
:49:37. > :49:41.had in ports. People would turn up in the morning to see if there was
:49:42. > :49:44.work available for that day. For a lot of people that is an
:49:45. > :49:50.unsustainable way to organise their lives. It's not unsustainable. It's
:49:51. > :49:53.completely immoral. When we encourage people to come off
:49:54. > :49:57.benefited and get into work we need to put the incentives in place to do
:49:58. > :50:00.that. When they cannot guarantee their income under those contracts,
:50:01. > :50:03.for whom these are not suitable, there are people, students and
:50:04. > :50:08.others, for whom they are suitable. The Government is doing something.
:50:09. > :50:13.The previous government didn't do. They grew under the last Labour
:50:14. > :50:17.government. We can wait and see what the consultation says. What are the
:50:18. > :50:20.workers saying they will will do be available any time. When ordered to
:50:21. > :50:26.come they will come. Otherwise they won't get work at all, that is the
:50:27. > :50:30.deal, is it? Yeah. They won't get travel expenses. Waiting hours
:50:31. > :50:34.between shifts. It's unacceptable to treat people like this. Yes, there
:50:35. > :50:39.might be the few tiny minority for who it works. Libby summed up the
:50:40. > :50:44.situation very well. It really does have to change. What has been
:50:45. > :50:49.forgotten in this debate. We can directly chart the increase, massive
:50:50. > :50:53.increase, in the use of zero-hour contracts from the time that the EU
:50:54. > :50:59.agency workers regulations were introduced into this country. That
:51:00. > :51:05.meant that temporary employees, after 12 weeks, had to be on exactly
:51:06. > :51:10.the same term and conditions as a full-time employees. Big businesses
:51:11. > :51:13.didn't like this. Zero-hours contracts was a way of getting
:51:14. > :51:17.around that particular piece of EU legislation. That's why they have
:51:18. > :51:22.rocketed. Once again, we have the EU to blame for this one.
:51:23. > :51:38.APPLAUSE Jennings Simon Jenkins. This is now
:51:39. > :51:43.huge. It's not a small matter. As with the rent, capping rent control.
:51:44. > :51:51.You legislate into the free market at your your peril. There are ways
:51:52. > :51:55.to ease the pain of zero-hour contracts. There have to be minimum
:51:56. > :51:59.standards expected of people. Travel expenses, The National Trust have a
:52:00. > :52:02.lot of these. National Trust have a lot of zero-hour contracts?
:52:03. > :52:07.Everybody does in this business. Everybody does. You are talking as
:52:08. > :52:10.if it were - where do you all work? People working in service industries
:52:11. > :52:14.are on these sort of contracts. Can you make them as fair and painless
:52:15. > :52:19.as they can be? Many people don't want to work full-time. Many people
:52:20. > :52:26.are happy to be called in when the sun shines. You want two or three
:52:27. > :52:33.times your staff when the sun is shining when it rains. You have to
:52:34. > :52:37.be sensible about this. I think it ease fair for the Government to
:52:38. > :52:41.regulate fairness and humanity in employment. That is fine. The idea
:52:42. > :52:44.you can get away from a massive source of employment for young
:52:45. > :52:47.people is ridiculous and counter productive.
:52:48. > :52:52.APPLAUSE The woman here. Yes. I don't think
:52:53. > :52:59.it's as zero-hour contracts that are the problem. They provide huge
:53:00. > :53:04.flexibility to the economy. It's the employers are exploiting them and
:53:05. > :53:11.making the workers lives hell. Are you on one yourself? I'm not on one.
:53:12. > :53:17.I know people who are on one. You are on one? Yeah. What is your view?
:53:18. > :53:23.They should be kept, certainly. It was the break into the industry, as
:53:24. > :53:29.you mentioned. The way into a job. That right. I got a contracted place
:53:30. > :53:33.from that. I mean, obviously, as you mentioned, it might have been my own
:53:34. > :53:39.case, not sure on the figures. I'm not into that. It worked for me.
:53:40. > :53:45.Yvette Cooper? Why is it so often the only route into a job? Why is it
:53:46. > :53:51.that so many organisations, as Simon refers to, are seeing zero-hours
:53:52. > :53:55.contracts as normal? They should not be normal. There should be areas
:53:56. > :53:59.where there are seasonal fluctuations there may be areas
:54:00. > :54:04.where people have retired who want to work on flexible contracts. For
:54:05. > :54:08.them to expand so much, so substantially in such a short period
:54:09. > :54:13.of time, I think is a very serious problem about the way in which the
:54:14. > :54:16.labour market is working. There is a series of problems, there is a big
:54:17. > :54:20.problem for people who are told they have to be available. Telling
:54:21. > :54:25.somebody they have to be available, but not guaranteeing them work is
:54:26. > :54:29.completely wrong and completely exsplotive. People can't plan
:54:30. > :54:31.holidays or anything. They can't get things like Working Tax Credit. They
:54:32. > :54:37.don't know how much they will be earning in a particular week. There
:54:38. > :54:40.is also a problem where people are kept on zero-hours contracts when
:54:41. > :54:45.they are working regular hours. They are working week after week after
:54:46. > :54:50.week after month after month on regular hours contracts, and not
:54:51. > :54:54.given the employment support that they should be in those regular
:54:55. > :54:58.hours. I think that is not fair on people too. That also ought to be
:54:59. > :55:00.addressed. At the moment, there is no suggestion that the Government
:55:01. > :55:04.seems to be addressing that issue, about what happens to people on
:55:05. > :55:09.long-term regular hours. They should do that as well. How do you know
:55:10. > :55:16.until we published our review. The woman there in the fourth row. I run
:55:17. > :55:22.a business that provides services for the care sector. The care sector
:55:23. > :55:26.is almost exclusively zero-hour contracts. I think sometimes it's
:55:27. > :55:34.very easy to hit employers over the head with a hammer about them. The
:55:35. > :55:37.reason zero-hours contracts came out because local authorities who
:55:38. > :55:44.contracted out their services for care refused to pay for block
:55:45. > :55:47.contracts. So now they say you can employ a workforce. You don't know
:55:48. > :55:54.how many people you need. You don't know when you need them. Local
:55:55. > :55:58.authorities pay for services by the minute.ful it's very - they won't
:55:59. > :56:03.pay for time. Local authorities will not pay employers to pay their staff
:56:04. > :56:07.for travel time. They won't make allowances for training. They won't
:56:08. > :56:13.pay anything other than contact time. They have engineered the need
:56:14. > :56:17.for zero-hour contracts. Could the law be changed so they can't do
:56:18. > :56:22.this, in your view? You can't interfere with what employers do. I
:56:23. > :56:26.agree with you there. What they should, it is all about funding.
:56:27. > :56:29.Particularly in essential services like care, it's about getting the
:56:30. > :56:33.funding right so that we can provide the proper services in jobs for
:56:34. > :56:39.people who provide those services. OK. Tim Farron. A whole different
:56:40. > :56:43.question there really. You are working in a profession that is
:56:44. > :56:47.dealing with and providing services for the most vulnerable people in
:56:48. > :56:50.this country. Millions of us, there will be millions more of us as the
:56:51. > :56:55.years go on, yet it needs to be - we have seen with the abuses that have
:56:56. > :56:59.been spoken about. Which of course are entirely a minority of cases. We
:57:00. > :57:04.need our care sector to be as funded as esteemed as much as people who
:57:05. > :57:08.work in the NHS, for example. On the issue of zero-hours contracts. You
:57:09. > :57:12.make the point, Simon makes the point, when the Government legislate
:57:13. > :57:16.and regulate, and it should, we need to be very careful we don't throw
:57:17. > :57:20.the babies out with the bath water. There is a range of things to get
:57:21. > :57:24.right. People on sdeer ehour contracts, not because it is
:57:25. > :57:28.convenient for them, it's convenient for the employer. It exploits the
:57:29. > :57:33.employee. You do not have zero rent or bills. To have zero-hours and not
:57:34. > :57:38.know when you won't have income that week when you might be eligible for
:57:39. > :57:42.benefits one week and not the next. And all the heartache that builds
:57:43. > :57:45.in. That is something we must restrict.
:57:46. > :57:51.APPLAUSE Got to stop, I'm afraid. Our hour is
:57:52. > :57:55.up. Next week we will be in Southampton. Panel, Shirley
:57:56. > :58:04.Williams, from the Liberal Democrats. Grant Shapps, Chuka
:58:05. > :58:08.Umunna Labour's Business Secretary and, guess who, Nigel Farage, leader
:58:09. > :58:13.of UKIP. The week after that we will be in Coventry. Come to Southampton
:58:14. > :58:19.and Coventry, apply the usual way. The website address is there The
:58:20. > :58:26.telephone number: If you are listening to this on 5 Live, it goes
:58:27. > :58:30.on with Question Time Extra Time, it doesn't go on in Leeds, that ends
:58:31. > :58:35.this edition of the programme with my thanks to the panel and all of
:58:36. > :58:41.you who came to take part. Until next Thursday, from Question Time,
:58:42. > :58:49.good night. APPLAUSE