:00:08. > :00:21.Tonight, we are in Southampton, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:22. > :00:25.Good evening to you at home, welcome to our audience, who will be putting
:00:26. > :00:30.questions to the panel who do not know what the questions are until
:00:31. > :00:33.they hear them. Two weeks until the local and European elections, so we
:00:34. > :00:40.have five politicians on the panel tonight. Conservative Party
:00:41. > :00:43.chairman, Grant Shapps, Labour's Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka
:00:44. > :00:48.Umunna, Liberal Democrat peer and the party's former leader in the
:00:49. > :00:52.House of Lords, Shirley Williams, the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage,
:00:53. > :01:04.and Green Party MP and former leader of that party, Caroline Lucas.
:01:05. > :01:13.Thank you. We begin with a question from Robert Easlick. Does the UK
:01:14. > :01:20.need to come out of the EU to stop the flow of immigrants living in
:01:21. > :01:24.this country? Chuka Umunna? Look, I am the son of an immigrant. I
:01:25. > :01:29.believe immigration has brought tremendous benefits to our country.
:01:30. > :01:33.In the wake of the war, immigrants helped to rebuild our country. Many
:01:34. > :01:39.public services would not be able to operate where it not for immigrants
:01:40. > :01:43.working in them. And if you look at the cultural diversity and richness
:01:44. > :01:48.of our nation, I think immigration has bought a lot. In terms of
:01:49. > :01:53.people's concerns, all that they ask is that we have properly controlled
:01:54. > :01:57.borders, that we don't have people coming in and undercutting British
:01:58. > :02:03.workers, and that they are not exploited themselves. But I
:02:04. > :02:09.certainly don't think pulling out of the EU would be a good thing for our
:02:10. > :02:13.economy. The EU is our nearest and biggest market and is actually the
:02:14. > :02:18.key that unlocks the door to many of these emerging markets. And that
:02:19. > :02:21.overrides any concerns your party may have, remembering they
:02:22. > :02:24.apologised for what they did on immigration, on the flow of
:02:25. > :02:28.immigrants into this country? I don't think we got everything right
:02:29. > :02:33.from immigration. But we have gone through a difficult period as a
:02:34. > :02:37.country, and economically it has been very difficult coming out of
:02:38. > :02:42.the 2008-2009 crash. We have some big challenges ahead. Automation,
:02:43. > :02:45.the use of computers, is changing the nature of jobs, and we face
:02:46. > :02:50.challenges from India, China and other emerging markets. I don't
:02:51. > :02:53.think pulling out of the EU is necessarily going to solve that. I
:02:54. > :02:57.also don't think doing one of those things people sometimes do when
:02:58. > :03:01.going through adversity, blaming the other for the problems we face, is a
:03:02. > :03:05.way to ensure we win in the future. You have seen the latest net
:03:06. > :03:10.migration figures which are pretty much the size of the city of
:03:11. > :03:15.Southampton last year. Are those numbers, for you, acceptable, right?
:03:16. > :03:20.We would like to see immigration come-down, but let's not forget, by
:03:21. > :03:26.the way, we have around 2 million Brits living in the EU. I think we
:03:27. > :03:30.have slightly more than that from the EU living here. But do I think
:03:31. > :03:34.coming out of the EU is going to solve the issues we have, competing
:03:35. > :03:39.in the world against the emerging market economies? No, I don't. To do
:03:40. > :03:43.that, we are going to have to innovate, make sure we invest in our
:03:44. > :03:46.science base, and we have to ensure that our people have the skills they
:03:47. > :03:50.need to succeed in the world. I don't think pulling out of the EU is
:03:51. > :03:51.going to solve those problems we have as a country.
:03:52. > :04:02.APPLAUSE Nigel Farage.
:04:03. > :04:09.It's a very good question, and the answer is, yes. Either you want to
:04:10. > :04:13.have an immigration policy, or you don't. When I hear Chuka use the
:04:14. > :04:17.word control, we need to control our borders, and if I hear it from
:04:18. > :04:21.anyone else on the panel, let's be frank. We have signed up through a
:04:22. > :04:26.series of treaties in Brussels to a total unrestricted open door. 485
:04:27. > :04:31.million people have the right to come and live in settle in this
:04:32. > :04:35.country. The first three arcades of our membership of Europe, no one
:04:36. > :04:38.noticed, because we actually had roughly similar living standards,
:04:39. > :04:42.similar education systems and health care. And then we let in, and it was
:04:43. > :04:46.Labour that did it, a series of countries, eight countries, that had
:04:47. > :04:50.not long been out of coming as, in many cases had not readjusted to
:04:51. > :04:53.being the kind of countries in terms of culture that we were. We have
:04:54. > :04:59.extended that to Romania and Bulgaria. Our minimum wage is nine
:05:00. > :05:02.times that of Romania and now we have in the eurozone a catastrophe
:05:03. > :05:07.in the Mediterranean, with youth unemployment at 60% in some of those
:05:08. > :05:10.countries. The numbers we have seen from the EU already are as nothing
:05:11. > :05:15.compared to what we will see over the next four years. My argument,
:05:16. > :05:18.and I would not dispute that controlled immigration can be a big
:05:19. > :05:21.net benefit to Britain, economically, culturally and
:05:22. > :05:25.everything else, but we have no control. And we have no idea next
:05:26. > :05:30.year whether 200,000 are coming, 500,000 are coming, 800,000 are
:05:31. > :05:33.coming. There is nothing we can do. I would advocate that one of the
:05:34. > :05:38.benefits of not being a member of the EU is that we get control of our
:05:39. > :05:41.borders so we can decide who comes to Britain. We shouldn't be
:05:42. > :05:44.discriminating against people from India and New Zealand, as we
:05:45. > :05:48.currently do, because we have an open door to Romania and Bulgaria.
:05:49. > :05:51.Let's have our own immigration policy and control not just the
:05:52. > :05:59.quantity of who comes to Britain, at the quality of who comes to Britain.
:06:00. > :06:07.APPLAUSE .
:06:08. > :06:09.We have heard this from my jaw before. Apparently there is going to
:06:10. > :06:13.be a catastrophe in the eurozone in the coming months and 26 million
:06:14. > :06:18.people are going to want to come here. -- we have heard this from
:06:19. > :06:22.Nigel. You said we would have this huge wage of people coming from the
:06:23. > :06:28.mania and Bulgaria and that has not happened. Have you seen the
:06:29. > :06:35.migration figures? There are five people on the panel! I am the third
:06:36. > :06:38.person on this panel. Let's be quite honest,
:06:39. > :06:43.person on this panel. Let's be quite dependent on some of the immigrants
:06:44. > :06:47.who have come here. Go into any NHS hospital, go and have an operation,
:06:48. > :06:52.look to see who the health systems are, who the doctors are. Many of
:06:53. > :06:56.them will not be from this country. Some will be from other EU
:06:57. > :07:01.countries, some from Commonwealth countries. Frankly, the NHS, of
:07:02. > :07:05.which I am extremely proud, would break down without them. They have
:07:06. > :07:11.been indispensable to it. Go into your hotels, pubs and cafes. I am
:07:12. > :07:15.not in favour of the low wages we pay people in catering. I think it
:07:16. > :07:15.should be at the very least the minimum wage.
:07:16. > :07:21.should be at the very least the doing jobs we cannot get English
:07:22. > :07:27.people to do because the pay is too poor. Are you not worried by the
:07:28. > :07:30.numbers who come, over 200,000? It is not the numbers,
:07:31. > :07:31.numbers who come, over 200,000? It people who come here are fitting
:07:32. > :07:38.into jobs that we need to be done. Unemployment has not soared in the
:07:39. > :07:42.way that Nigel and others said it would. We have relatively
:07:43. > :07:49.way that Nigel and others said it around here and they are not worth
:07:50. > :07:52.looking at carefully because they are exactly that, spectres.
:07:53. > :07:56.looking at carefully because they say one other thing. Many people do
:07:57. > :08:01.not realise that if we didn't have, for example, a steady flow of
:08:02. > :08:05.substantial numbers of overseas students, including into Southampton
:08:06. > :08:09.University, we would have to close one course after the other. There
:08:10. > :08:13.aren't enough people in the technical, mathematical and economic
:08:14. > :08:20.courses to keep them open for Brits, technical, mathematical and economic
:08:21. > :08:26.And overseas students now pay a very substantial part of all the costs of
:08:27. > :08:30.our universities, a much higher cost than would be met simply by tuition
:08:31. > :08:33.fees. We would see tuition fees go up even further if we did not invite
:08:34. > :08:40.overseas students. APPLAUSE
:08:41. > :08:44.I will come back to you. I think the policies are wrong to
:08:45. > :08:47.start with. Why should they be able to turn up in this country and
:08:48. > :08:55.expect everything they can get over here? Why not have jobs that are
:08:56. > :08:59.open to them? A bit like Australia or America, where they have a green
:09:00. > :09:03.card. You apply for what you get when you come here. I don't have an
:09:04. > :09:07.issue with people coming over here with the hospitals and everything.
:09:08. > :09:13.We have a minimum wage as well. It is not one-sided. I had an extremely
:09:14. > :09:22.ill close relative, an NHS patient, a brick. -- a Britain. He became
:09:23. > :09:25.extremely ill last year with a serious heart condition and was
:09:26. > :09:28.looked after absolutely brilliantly in France, and later in Italy. And
:09:29. > :09:33.he never paid a penny because there is a common NHS card which is served
:09:34. > :09:37.by the whole of the European Union, which means everyone of us who
:09:38. > :09:40.travels to Europe would get what we would never get if we travel to the
:09:41. > :09:47.United States or China. We get full health safety.
:09:48. > :09:54.APPLAUSE Let me come back to the question.
:09:55. > :09:58.Grant Shapps. Does the UK need to pull out of Europe to control
:09:59. > :10:03.immigration? The answer is, we want you to be able to have a say in
:10:04. > :10:07.this. I believe that immigration has benefited this country. I believe it
:10:08. > :10:09.is important that people are allowed to travel around a free market which
:10:10. > :10:16.includes people being able to move around. I am surprised to hear what
:10:17. > :10:20.Nigel had to say. Who would be his secretary without his German wife if
:10:21. > :10:25.there was no free movement? The question is what kind of free
:10:26. > :10:28.movement and how far should it go? When you countries joined the EU, as
:10:29. > :10:32.we just saw, we have been arguing when countries come in and they have
:10:33. > :10:36.a different standard of living, there should be potential for a
:10:37. > :10:40.longer transition period. That is exactly the sort of thing we want to
:10:41. > :10:44.renegotiate with the EU on, and we want to put it to a referendum so
:10:45. > :10:47.not the politicians, not Labour and the Lib Dems, who I would argue do
:10:48. > :10:52.not want anything but to take us further into Europe, nor Nigel, who
:10:53. > :10:55.can't deliver, but the Conservatives, who can deliver, and
:10:56. > :11:02.we will do that by giving you an in-out referendum. Is that giving
:11:03. > :11:08.people a say, Nigel? Why don't you tell them the truth? The question
:11:09. > :11:11.was, do we have to put up with the EU to control immigration? He says,
:11:12. > :11:15.I don't have an opinion and it is up to you in a referendum. We heard
:11:16. > :11:18.that before when David Cameron promised one at the last European
:11:19. > :11:22.elections and didn't deliver. You, along with Labour, the Lib Dems, the
:11:23. > :11:28.Greens, the political establishment have all voted. You are the
:11:29. > :11:37.establishment. You have been an MP for 15 years. I will tell you what,
:11:38. > :11:41.they haven't tamed me yet. Grant, no party has been keener on the free
:11:42. > :11:44.movement of peoples within the European Union than the
:11:45. > :11:53.Conservatives. So much so that your leader even once Turkey to join the
:11:54. > :11:58.European Union. Caroline Lucas, and then people with their hands up. I
:11:59. > :12:02.am going to say is thing unusual because I agree with Nigel on one
:12:03. > :12:06.point only. I do think people should have a say about the EU and I don't
:12:07. > :12:11.think kicking it into the long grass, as the Conservatives are
:12:12. > :12:16.doing, is the right thing to do. And what would your say be in a
:12:17. > :12:20.referendum? Did you vote for it? Yes, I did, thank you. I do think we
:12:21. > :12:24.should have an in-out referendum and if we were to have such a referendum
:12:25. > :12:29.the Green Party would be voting to stay in. When I was thinking this
:12:30. > :12:33.might possibly, tonight I made a note on the train of the things that
:12:34. > :12:38.the EU has done for us. When people say, what has the EU ever done for
:12:39. > :12:42.you, I have a view things. Providing 50% of our trade, clean beaches and
:12:43. > :12:47.rivers, cleaner air, lead-free petrol, restrictions on dumping,
:12:48. > :12:56.improved food protection and labelling, a ban on hormones and
:12:57. > :13:01.other food additive -- additives. How much more? I have hardly
:13:02. > :13:09.started. Pulling out of the EU would be a disaster. And it is a false
:13:10. > :13:13.choice. But the thing that mix me most cross is when Nigel Farage
:13:14. > :13:16.tries to pretend he is a man of the people, that he is
:13:17. > :13:21.anti-establishment. If you look at the UKIP policies they are anything
:13:22. > :13:27.but. UKIP is the party claiming lots of money from rich bankers who are
:13:28. > :13:33.bankrolling them. Is that relevance to this question, Caroline? This is
:13:34. > :13:37.an immigration question. I will tell you how it fits in if you will be
:13:38. > :13:43.quiet for a second. You said you are antiestablishment. You are at the
:13:44. > :13:47.centre of the establishment. You said you were counter to the
:13:48. > :13:54.establishment. He actually said he had not been tamed. He will say that
:13:55. > :13:59.he says what no one else dares to say. What I dare to say is that we
:14:00. > :14:03.have a chronic housing shortage, an NHS under strain, a culture of low
:14:04. > :14:07.pay, but the fault lies with the government, not with migrants.
:14:08. > :14:14.The woman in the second row? I'd like to add to Shirley Williams'
:14:15. > :14:19.list that the care industry also is heavily dependent on immigrants. I
:14:20. > :14:24.have also been to Italy and been ill. I had to show my passport and
:14:25. > :14:28.had x-rays and excellent care without paying a penny. There was
:14:29. > :14:32.bound to be a huge period of adjustment when the new countries
:14:33. > :14:38.joined Europe with regard to immigration. But it will settle
:14:39. > :14:43.down, I believe. I think that making immigration the reason for leaving
:14:44. > :14:50.Europe seems to me to be very short-sighted. I'm with you. I'd
:14:51. > :14:54.agree with you. I would add one other thing. The countries that have
:14:55. > :14:59.come into the EU in the last few years, like Bulgaria, Romania,
:15:00. > :15:04.Poland, are countries that have become democracies. We should be
:15:05. > :15:08.very proud of that fact that the concept of democracy and the rule of
:15:09. > :15:12.law has spread throughout Europe, including Eastern Europe and Central
:15:13. > :15:15.Europe, in a way that our grandparents would never have
:15:16. > :15:20.believed possible. Did it need to involve free movement of people?
:15:21. > :15:26.Yes. Why? The essence of the idea was the equality of all citizens in
:15:27. > :15:32.the EU and above all, what was said years ago, "I want to live in a
:15:33. > :15:37.continent where you can go from one place to the other without showing a
:15:38. > :15:41.passport." The former Labour Foreign Secretary. You, Sir? Will anybody
:15:42. > :15:48.admit that immigration has got out of hand? I will. He will. Hold on.
:15:49. > :16:00.You know Nigel Farage will. Who do you want to admit it? Any of them.
:16:01. > :16:07.Nobody's taking it on. Grant Shapps? First of all... There's too many.
:16:08. > :16:11.Especially in Southampton! It means that millions of Brits have gone and
:16:12. > :16:15.settled in places like Spain and France and elsewhere to work or
:16:16. > :16:18.retire. So we have to be looking at this in the round. The idea that you
:16:19. > :16:22.ban it one way, of course they ban it the other way. I do agree that
:16:23. > :16:25.you have to control these things. That is why this Government has
:16:26. > :16:29.introduced measures to make sure that you cannot now go to the front
:16:30. > :16:32.of the housing queue if you haven't lived in an area. You can't use the
:16:33. > :16:38.Health Service as if it is the lived in an area. You can't use the
:16:39. > :16:39.was wrong. We have put an end to that. It is interesting to see that
:16:40. > :16:43.because we have taken a that. It is interesting to see that
:16:44. > :16:46.different steps that the that. It is interesting to see that
:16:47. > :16:48.mass movement of people from Romania and Bulgaria does not appear to have
:16:49. > :16:50.taken place. Is that because of the and Bulgaria does not appear to have
:16:51. > :16:53.measures you took? Yes. and Bulgaria does not appear to have
:16:54. > :16:54.things. One of the and Bulgaria does not appear to have
:16:55. > :16:58.early on was extended and Bulgaria does not appear to have
:16:59. > :17:02.minimum amount of time that and Bulgaria does not appear to have
:17:03. > :17:04.had put in for transitions, we added another two years
:17:05. > :17:06.had put in for transitions, we added between the time that
:17:07. > :17:11.had put in for transitions, we added Bulgarians came into the EU and were
:17:12. > :17:14.able to come here. Is the coalition getting it right where Labour got it
:17:15. > :17:25.wrong? The things they have been doing are things that we called for,
:17:26. > :17:28.like strengthening the habitual residence test. Sometimes the tone
:17:29. > :17:31.like strengthening the habitual of the debate in our country has
:17:32. > :17:37.become ugly. When people like Nigel say, "When I'm on a bus or train, I
:17:38. > :17:41.feel awkward if I hear people speaking another language." That is
:17:42. > :17:45.ugly. Let's have a calm and... Do you? I do. Do you not think that
:17:46. > :17:48.ugly. Let's have a calm and... Do people coming to this country in
:17:49. > :17:53.reasonable controlled numbers, learning English and integrating is
:17:54. > :17:55.not important? It is very, very important, indeed.
:17:56. > :18:03.Very important. You have completely misinterpreted
:18:04. > :18:06.Very important. You have completely there. I haven't argued
:18:07. > :18:09.Very important. You have completely against is letting this debate
:18:10. > :18:16.descend into something that against is letting this debate
:18:17. > :18:19.constituency in London, where you would hear other people talking
:18:20. > :18:24.different languages other than English and you say that makes you
:18:25. > :18:27.feel awkward. What you say makes me feel awkward.
:18:28. > :18:36.Surely, the essence is about should we
:18:37. > :18:38.Surely, the essence EU so we can
:18:39. > :18:42.Surely, the essence argument is that unless we can
:18:43. > :18:45.control the numbers that come in, we will not get integration, we will
:18:46. > :18:53.get separation communities that is something that
:18:54. > :18:58.nobody wants. Alright. You, Sir? I want to say - we are saying about
:18:59. > :19:02.coming in or out of the EU for immigration. There are hundreds more
:19:03. > :19:07.reasons to be doing it, for and against. I'm sort of quite proud to
:19:08. > :19:10.say I'm only a young chap and I am just getting into politics and
:19:11. > :19:15.enjoying it as well! The only way I can go is these decisions to go in
:19:16. > :19:23.were made before I had a choice and the referendum gives people a chance
:19:24. > :19:28.to redo that. It is not a bad thing to look at the balance and say all
:19:29. > :19:33.our heads are better than one, the same as a country's way forward is
:19:34. > :19:36.better than one party. Labour have good points. UKIP might have good
:19:37. > :19:40.points. The Conservative Party are the only people putting forward to
:19:41. > :19:43.give everyone a chance to choose a way forward. Well done to Caroline
:19:44. > :19:47.for voting for the Bill when it was in front of Parliament. Shame on
:19:48. > :19:50.Labour and the Lib Dems for not allowing this Parliament to give
:19:51. > :19:55.people the in-out referendum. Shirley? I don't expect Grant to
:19:56. > :19:59.remember my whole history - why should he? I was the member of the
:20:00. > :20:02.Cabinet who resigned on the grounds that we weren't going to have a
:20:03. > :20:05.referendum. I'm not the right one for him to pick on! Let me be
:20:06. > :20:18.precise, though. Hang on. I want to address the
:20:19. > :20:24.gentleman. We are getting distracted in the whole EU discussion by what
:20:25. > :20:29.we are can only describe as issues like tossing to and fro, party views
:20:30. > :20:33.on immigration and things of that kind. I read yesterday in the
:20:34. > :20:38.newspaper, the American newspapers, the devastating effects of climate
:20:39. > :20:41.change. The only people who can do anything serious about climate
:20:42. > :20:46.change are not individual countries like the UK or Germany, or France,
:20:47. > :20:53.it is the whole lot together. Absolutely. As they had some chance
:20:54. > :21:01.about doing something about organise niessed crime. I -- organised crime.
:21:02. > :21:05.I'm making this point to Nigel who I respect, he is a highly intelligent
:21:06. > :21:14.man and great fun to have a drink with. Thank you. Let me put... That
:21:15. > :21:21.is after the programme! Let me put one serious question to him. His
:21:22. > :21:24.people in the European Parliament voted against a directive from the
:21:25. > :21:29.EU to limit and stop human trafficking. Human trafficking of
:21:30. > :21:33.children and people who were dragged into this country as semi-slaves. I
:21:34. > :21:37.think Nigel's got to take a grip on his party because he's got some very
:21:38. > :21:42.funny characters in it. Hang on. I'm not being rude. I want to say that.
:21:43. > :21:50.I gave you an example that bothers me. You have pushed in Brussels and
:21:51. > :21:54.Strasbourg the idea of justice and home affairs becoming issues that
:21:55. > :21:58.move from the jurisdiction of the British Parliament to the European
:21:59. > :22:02.institutions. And you can talk about people trafficking and all the rest
:22:03. > :22:08.of it. Your party sponsored the European arrest warrant. We did.
:22:09. > :22:16.That led to a guy from North London with no prima facie evidence being
:22:17. > :22:20.dumped in a hell hole in Greece without facing charge. We have had
:22:21. > :22:24.the presumption of innocence before guilt and they are the things that
:22:25. > :22:30.you - you call yourself a Liberal Party - and you have thrown them
:22:31. > :22:37.away. The Great Train Robber who was living for years in Spain. Caroline
:22:38. > :22:39.Lucas? I only wanted to go back to the young man in the front row who
:22:40. > :22:43.was saying he was enjoying getting involved in politics and wanted the
:22:44. > :22:48.opportunity to vote on membership of the EU. The kinds of issues we have
:22:49. > :22:52.been talking about now are the ones that need to be properly thrashed
:22:53. > :23:00.out with people who haven't had the opportunity to have their say at the
:23:01. > :23:06.moment. The point Shirley raises - it is vital and we need to have that
:23:07. > :23:09.debate. This will enable us to engage people with the EU. If you
:23:10. > :23:13.went out on the streets of Southampton and said, "What's the EU
:23:14. > :23:17.for?" People don't know anymore. We need to reinspire a vision of what
:23:18. > :23:23.the EU could be for. It needs a lot of reform. It needs to be
:23:24. > :23:29.accountable. How? There are lots of easy ways. How? It wouldn't happen
:23:30. > :23:34.if you leave, that's for sure. It is never going to reform. How can you
:23:35. > :23:39.reform something that is based on treaties? Our audience has come here
:23:40. > :23:43.not to just listen to you, but also to debate with you and other members
:23:44. > :23:50.of the panel. Let's have a go. If net immigration is the size of the
:23:51. > :23:56.city of Southampton, where are my children going to find a house to
:23:57. > :23:59.live? Chuka Umunna? At the end of the day, the reason that we have
:24:00. > :24:03.housing problems right now is because we have the lowest rate of
:24:04. > :24:07.new-builds since the 1920s and, again, to go to the point that was
:24:08. > :24:10.made earlier, we can blame all our problems on the EU, but we have to
:24:11. > :24:14.sort them out here. That is a responsibility of Government. Can I
:24:15. > :24:19.say something else? We are talking about whether we are in or out. If
:24:20. > :24:22.we come out, we are still likely to have to comply with all their rules
:24:23. > :24:25.and regulations to sell our goods. If you are on the field playing the
:24:26. > :24:33.match, batting for Britain, you can get a good deal. You would walk off
:24:34. > :24:39.the field! But the argument... Alright. OK. The argument... The
:24:40. > :24:46.argument we can battle for Britain has been given light to. On 55
:24:47. > :24:49.occasions since 1996, mostly under a Labour Government, on 55 occasions
:24:50. > :24:56.the British Government have said we are going to fight hard against this
:24:57. > :25:11.directive and we have lost on all 55 occasions. Surely, this is nonsense.
:25:12. > :25:17.Grant Shapps? Surely, what we are... You are saying absolutely... Were
:25:18. > :25:22.you saying absolutely? Absolute nonsense. Grant Shapps? No, Grant
:25:23. > :25:25.Shapps? Surely, what we are witnessing here are two extremes.
:25:26. > :25:29.One party, the Labour Party, that will not give you an in-out
:25:30. > :25:34.referendum on Europe. The other party, UKIP, who say they want one,
:25:35. > :25:41.but admit at the same time they cannot deliver. People of our
:25:42. > :25:45.generation, with the exception of Shirley, have never been given a
:25:46. > :25:50.say. Let's put it to the British people. And vote to stay in. You can
:25:51. > :25:55.vote how you like, Nigel. Can I ask you one simple question? Why is it
:25:56. > :26:02.always renegotiate and then have a referendum? Why not have a
:26:03. > :26:06.referendum? If you had a referendum without having agreed what the
:26:07. > :26:10.subject was - in other words... Should you be in or out of Europe?
:26:11. > :26:16.The better option is rather than just say these two extreme positions
:26:17. > :26:24.- it is all fine. Or it is all disastrous. You can do things like
:26:25. > :26:30.renegotiate the people. How do you avoid it being the trick that Harold
:26:31. > :26:35.Wilson paid when he renegotiated a little bit and have everybody say,
:26:36. > :26:40."Go for it"? I remember because I voted. People like the two of you
:26:41. > :26:44.will remind us that that was the trick and we won't fall for it
:26:45. > :26:49.again. It will be up to everyone else to make the decision. Have we
:26:50. > :26:53.returned power to this country? Have we come to a position which people
:26:54. > :26:59.are comfortable with and give people an in-out referendum. Only the
:27:00. > :27:05.Conservatives will deliver that. Hold on. It is fantasy. Let's listen
:27:06. > :27:11.to our audience again. Yourself and Caroline and Chuka, what you miss
:27:12. > :27:15.about UKIP is that the motivation for what you do politically is
:27:16. > :27:19.almost as important as what you do. The fact you have offered a
:27:20. > :27:24.referendum is great. You will never claim the political credit for it.
:27:25. > :27:29.Cameron reneged on his cast-iron promise. Let me finish, then you can
:27:30. > :27:34.come back. Now, you are saying we will put it to you. People are
:27:35. > :27:38.saying - as an electorate, we want to be led as much as we want you to
:27:39. > :27:43.listen. What UKIP have done is they have put their finger on a problem
:27:44. > :27:47.and they have led. What you have all done is you have responded to things
:27:48. > :27:50.happening because you don't understand what life
:27:51. > :27:50.happening because you don't people out there in Britain. You
:27:51. > :28:06.don't understand that. Caroline? I think that gentleman has
:28:07. > :28:09.put his finger on something incredibly important. When people
:28:10. > :28:13.look at people who are going to vote UKIP - and sometimes they are very
:28:14. > :28:17.rude - I don't think that is the case. They are very angry. Probably
:28:18. > :28:21.many of you are very, very angry. That is because it feels to you, I'm
:28:22. > :28:24.sure, that the political elite at Westminster simply doesn't
:28:25. > :28:32.understand your lives. When you look in on them, at Westminster, it feels
:28:33. > :28:36.as if... It feels as if they are out of touch and the danger of that,
:28:37. > :28:41.though, is that UKIP's policies, which are in so many areas, are so
:28:42. > :28:44.dubious. It is almost as if it doesn't matter about the policies
:28:45. > :28:48.because your anger is so great. I understand that. It is incredibly
:28:49. > :28:53.dangerous. When you look at UKIP's policies... We want our democracy
:28:54. > :28:59.back. What is wrong with that? I'm talking about your other policies.
:29:00. > :29:03.All we want... Let me finish. We have never said that. Wait, wait. We
:29:04. > :29:09.are not going into UKIP's manifesto at this stage.
:29:10. > :29:15.We are not going into the UKIP manifesto this stage. We do not know
:29:16. > :29:20.what will happen in future. If we have elected representatives that we
:29:21. > :29:24.trust, we know they will deal with the situation in the way we would
:29:25. > :29:31.want them to. You don't have the trust at the moment. First of all,
:29:32. > :29:34.the biggest lie that needs to be quashed is that somehow a referendum
:29:35. > :29:37.was promised in a previous manifesto. That is not the case.
:29:38. > :29:44.Hold on a minute. We are talking manifesto. That is not the case.
:29:45. > :29:46.about the manifesto upon which this Conservative led government got
:29:47. > :29:54.elected, and there was no manifesto in there. In 2009, you said vote for
:29:55. > :30:04.us and we will guarantee you a referendum. Nigel... Be straight
:30:05. > :30:08.about it. If you will let someone get the wording, the fact of the
:30:09. > :30:11.matter is that in the last general election that was not in our
:30:12. > :30:14.manifesto. The only reason it was in the previous one is that it was
:30:15. > :30:17.before the Lisbon treaty had been passed, which I voted against, along
:30:18. > :30:23.with every Conservative in Parliament. The reason why we can
:30:24. > :30:27.and should be trusted when we say we want a referendum in 2017 is that
:30:28. > :30:31.during this parliament we have cut the EU budget, something that Nigel
:30:32. > :30:36.and his colleagues in Europe voted against. It saves this country ?8
:30:37. > :30:40.billion over the next ten years. We vetoed the EU Treaty, got out of the
:30:41. > :30:45.bail out fund which Labour signed up to in the dying days of their
:30:46. > :30:53.government. When we say we will give you an in-out referendum, we mean
:30:54. > :30:57.it. We will give it to you. As you know, if you are a regular watcher,
:30:58. > :31:10.you can join in the debate from home by text or Twitter. Surely, whatever
:31:11. > :31:16.issues we have with Europe, whether we want to be in or out, it would be
:31:17. > :31:19.a mistake to see the answer to vote in MEPs who will then not turn up
:31:20. > :31:28.and try and change what is going on in Europe. You are saying that UKIP
:31:29. > :31:39.MEPs don't turn up? It is not that I think, it is there. What happens is
:31:40. > :31:44.that your posters display, and I saw one the other day, a man in the back
:31:45. > :31:48.of the car saying that your tax payers money funds his millionaire
:31:49. > :31:52.'s lifestyle. Actually, how taxpayers money funds you as well,
:31:53. > :31:57.going over there and not turning up to do the job which you are paid to
:31:58. > :32:01.do. You can't have this argument both ways. Either we turn up and
:32:02. > :32:08.enjoy the luxury lifestyle, or we don't. What we want to do, we are
:32:09. > :32:12.the turkeys that would vote for Christmas. We want to get rid of
:32:13. > :32:16.British MEPs and commissioners. We don't need any of this to trade and
:32:17. > :32:22.cooperate with our next-door neighbours in Europe. 40% of your
:32:23. > :32:27.MEPs elected last time round have resigned, defected or gone to jail.
:32:28. > :32:35.Not one of them has gone to jail. If you start talking about expenses
:32:36. > :32:44.scandals... Two of them. None of them. OK, it was the last
:32:45. > :32:49.Parliament. I just want to pick up on the last point which was made
:32:50. > :32:52.about trust in politicians. I think we have fundamental issues of trust,
:32:53. > :32:57.not just in politics, but the police, the media, many parts of
:32:58. > :33:01.society. I think that is right. I think there is also a sense that
:33:02. > :33:06.there is a disconnect between the government, policymakers and the
:33:07. > :33:09.people we are supposed to work for. There is also anger. I don't think
:33:10. > :33:14.the solution is setting up different parts of our community against each
:33:15. > :33:19.other, setting up the other as the target that we blame for all our
:33:20. > :33:27.problems. I think actually we need to return to our values of social
:33:28. > :33:33.solidarity. Chuka, do you think I would do that? I am half Indian! You
:33:34. > :33:38.were also talking about the kind of policies UKIP have been promoting. I
:33:39. > :33:41.don't think people want to pay for key NHS policies, as Nigel would
:33:42. > :33:49.have you do. Where does that come from? Your manifesto. You set
:33:50. > :33:54.yourself up as the voice of working people and you would do so me things
:33:55. > :34:01.which would damage communities. We don't know what your policies are.
:34:02. > :34:06.You don't have a manifesto, do you, isn't that right? New abandoned it.
:34:07. > :34:12.Nobody has an election manifesto for next year. The gentleman raised a
:34:13. > :34:16.serious point about trust I have to ask him whether the crisis of trust
:34:17. > :34:21.is a much wider one than he was implying. Let's look at the attitude
:34:22. > :34:24.we have had towards the banks. The banks have been so troubling that
:34:25. > :34:29.people like the Archbishop of Canterbury have said they have lost
:34:30. > :34:33.their moral compass. If you look at what Barclays has done in the last
:34:34. > :34:36.week, it has housed at # has had to lay off a huge number of people,
:34:37. > :34:42.including most of its investment bank, because of the record of the
:34:43. > :34:46.past. You have to ask a deeper question of how to restore trust,
:34:47. > :34:52.not just in politicians, and that is important, but in politics as a
:34:53. > :34:56.whole. I think the answer to that is two things. One, there needs to be a
:34:57. > :34:59.greater acceptance of our joint responsibility for the way we behave
:35:00. > :35:03.and the moral standards we try to uphold. Secondly, it also means we
:35:04. > :35:08.have to actually have a far more active democracy, where we involve
:35:09. > :35:10.people at local community level in their own decisions. I think
:35:11. > :35:15.centralisation in this country has gone too far. In particular, London
:35:16. > :35:20.dominates everything. Having said that, with great respect to you, you
:35:21. > :35:23.have to look deeper than just flicking at politicians, because
:35:24. > :35:31.that is the easy, cheap one, but it is much deeper than that. I
:35:32. > :35:40.absolutely agree with you. The man at the back, in the back row. Nigel,
:35:41. > :35:47.let me finish, please! You haven't started. That is the point. I am old
:35:48. > :35:51.enough to have read about McCarthyism, and to have read the
:35:52. > :35:59.river of blood speech. Enoch Powell's speech. And your point is?
:36:00. > :36:08.I am also aware of what happens in elections where a climate of fear is
:36:09. > :36:13.caused among the electorate by the charismatic, the bombastic, and to
:36:14. > :36:22.me the very dangerous. This has driven Europe to war in the past. I
:36:23. > :36:28.have no time for you, sir. None. APPLAUSE
:36:29. > :36:33.. You are very lucky, because there
:36:34. > :36:37.are four parties on this platform you can vote for, who believe we
:36:38. > :36:43.should not govern our own country. It won't be you. And that we should
:36:44. > :36:47.have the vast majority of our laws made somewhere else, over which we
:36:48. > :36:52.have virtually no save. If that is what you want, that is fine. Be
:36:53. > :36:56.aware of one thing. Firstly, we are giving people a choice. We want to
:36:57. > :37:00.trade and cooperate with Europe but not be governed by their
:37:01. > :37:04.institutions. But recognise this, the European dream is failing and
:37:05. > :37:07.crumbling. And goodness we did not join the euro zone. This whole
:37:08. > :37:13.political project in a decade's time as head of a disaster for tens of
:37:14. > :37:18.millions of European peoples. There you go. I can talk over you, just as
:37:19. > :37:25.you can talk over me. You are merely putting a scenario. Bring your
:37:26. > :37:29.remarks to a conclusion. The point is that what is happening is that
:37:30. > :37:34.the very nationalisms, intolerances and extremism is the EU was supposed
:37:35. > :37:43.to stop, it is creating because of the disastrous failure called the
:37:44. > :37:49.eurozone. I will give you a chance to reply. Just hold on. The law of
:37:50. > :37:52.unforeseen consequences. If we come out of Europe, you have to
:37:53. > :38:02.renegotiate everything. Europe creates tax regimes which mean that
:38:03. > :38:07.car-makers, and if Pfizer get their hands on it, AstraZeneca, go over to
:38:08. > :38:10.Europe. We lose the skills base, we are marginalised. That is the real
:38:11. > :38:14.Europe. We lose the skills base, we fear, that is the economic fear
:38:15. > :38:18.facing this country. But we will do business anyway. I am now going to
:38:19. > :38:23.move onto another question, business anyway. I am now going to
:38:24. > :38:29.we have a number. My goodness, only 20 minutes left. This one from
:38:30. > :38:33.Alison Ayling. Is the intervention of the US in the search for the
:38:34. > :38:41.abducted Nigerian girls likely to inflame the situation and provoke
:38:42. > :38:45.Boko Haram to more violence? The Americans moving into Nigeria to try
:38:46. > :38:49.and find these 200 girls and others that have been abducted since. The
:38:50. > :38:57.actual role of America against Boko Haram. What do you think, Caroline
:38:58. > :39:00.Lucas? Well, I think the impetus of the Americans and indeed the
:39:01. > :39:04.international community as a whole is entirely understandable and long
:39:05. > :39:08.in coming, to be honest. Because this happened three or four weeks
:39:09. > :39:12.ago. The Nigerian president didn't really notice until a couple of
:39:13. > :39:17.weeks ago, thanks to a fantastic campaign about bring back our girls,
:39:18. > :39:20.which is why I am wearing my red ribbon today. There is now more
:39:21. > :39:25.international as well as Nigerian noise about saying we have to do
:39:26. > :39:29.more to bring these girls back. I understand why Barack Obama is
:39:30. > :39:33.trying to take the lead on this. To the extent that it felt there was
:39:34. > :39:36.something of a vacuum in terms of its national leadership before
:39:37. > :39:39.that, it is helpful that he did. Answering your question, if you
:39:40. > :39:40.that, it is helpful that he did. talking about US boots on the
:39:41. > :39:48.ground, that would be disastrous. talking about US boots on the
:39:49. > :39:51.kind of surveillance, the negotiation skills, the kind of
:39:52. > :39:55.people that can go and try and find these girls. That is what we need
:39:56. > :40:01.and if the international community can help with that, they absolutely
:40:02. > :40:05.should. It strikes me as so odd that these girls have been missing for so
:40:06. > :40:09.long and there was for a long time so little response. If you compare
:40:10. > :40:12.it to the Malaysian airline, that was on the front page of our
:40:13. > :40:14.it to the Malaysian airline, that newspapers and TV all the time, and
:40:15. > :40:19.yet the chances of finding those people alive was really slim.
:40:20. > :40:21.yet the chances of finding those girls, hopefully, are still alive
:40:22. > :40:25.and we have to redouble our efforts to get them back. Also, we need to
:40:26. > :40:31.think about what they are coming back to. If you look at Nigeria,
:40:32. > :40:36.look at the corruption, look at the way in which the political elite
:40:37. > :40:40.have that huge oil wealth, but it is not trickling down to any other part
:40:41. > :40:45.of the country at all, then I think we need to keep that spotlight on
:40:46. > :40:51.Nigeria and say, yes, let's sort out the issue around the girls, around
:40:52. > :40:55.education, because it is no accident that Boko Haram are targeting
:40:56. > :40:59.education, but there is so much more to be done on education in Nigeria
:41:00. > :41:02.as well. If there is any hope that can come out of this, hopefully we
:41:03. > :41:06.will get the girls back and focus on more girls getting into education,
:41:07. > :41:07.and on the corruption of the Nigerian regime.
:41:08. > :41:16.APPLAUSE Allison, what is behind your
:41:17. > :41:18.question? Do you fear the intervention of the
:41:19. > :41:24.United States may be counter-productive? It could be,
:41:25. > :41:28.because Boko Haram appears quite volatile. My daughter has just spent
:41:29. > :41:32.three months in Nigeria and one of the impressions that she had was how
:41:33. > :41:35.poor the communication is within the country, and the fact that although
:41:36. > :41:41.people are aware of Boko Haram, of course, she was there when the
:41:42. > :41:45.explosion took place in Abuja, and everybody just knows they have to
:41:46. > :41:50.live in fear. These are people out in the country. So it is just
:41:51. > :41:56.whether or not such a volatile organisation would be just flown
:41:57. > :41:59.further in tatters, if you like, by having an uncoordinated
:42:00. > :42:03.intervention. As long as the intervention is coordinated, I think
:42:04. > :42:08.it could be extremely successful. Well, there is an ongoing war on
:42:09. > :42:12.terror on going in the northern states of Nigeria. My family are
:42:13. > :42:16.from the south-east. I think what has happened here is abhorrent. It
:42:17. > :42:25.is a disgrace that it took so long to become a big, international
:42:26. > :42:29.story. But I think Caroline is right. The assistance that the US
:42:30. > :42:34.and the UK are providing, in terms of the technical assistance,
:42:35. > :42:38.particularly the satellite technology to identify where the
:42:39. > :42:43.girls are being held, is welcome and necessary. But to really win this
:42:44. > :42:46.war on terror, Caroline is right, there are more fundamental issues
:42:47. > :42:50.that need to be addressed, in terms of looking at wide Boko Haram is
:42:51. > :42:55.able to recruit people, and Caroline is absolutely right that the
:42:56. > :43:02.corruption is still endemic in Nigeria. Frankly, and this is very
:43:03. > :43:06.much a personal view based on my own family and personal experience, I
:43:07. > :43:12.suppose, but the way that the security forces go into communities,
:43:13. > :43:16.exercise sometimes extreme violence, extreme human rights violations, on
:43:17. > :43:21.top of the fact that, despite the fact, this is the great shame about
:43:22. > :43:27.Nigeria, Nigeria is going places at the moment. You have this burgeoning
:43:28. > :43:31.middle growth, but you still have a situation where two thirds of
:43:32. > :43:35.Nigerian people are living on less than $1 per day. For all the extra
:43:36. > :43:39.wealth we are seeing, it is not being properly shared. Frankly,
:43:40. > :43:43.since independence, I think the Nigerian people have been let down
:43:44. > :43:47.time and time again by the different regimes that there have been. And
:43:48. > :43:53.they deserve better. And unless we get better government in Nigeria, I
:43:54. > :43:56.fear you will see the likes of Boko Haram carry on. That is no excuse
:43:57. > :44:00.for what they do, of course it isn't, but you have to look at the
:44:01. > :44:01.causes and win the war around hearts and minds to deal with this terror
:44:02. > :44:11.once and for all. Shirley Williams? Some people here
:44:12. > :44:18.will remember the great battle in the rivers province of Nigeria to
:44:19. > :44:24.try to get some wealth ploughed back into that part of Nigeria. It never
:44:25. > :44:31.happened. Effectively they hung the man who was leading the movement for
:44:32. > :44:34.the Renaissance of the rivers province and we in the West went
:44:35. > :44:41.along with that. We didn't complain about it. Number two - the United
:44:42. > :44:45.Nations Human Development Index shows year after year after year
:44:46. > :44:51.that the countries where women have the right to education are countries
:44:52. > :44:58.that soar upwards, countries like Asia, India, China. The countries
:44:59. > :45:02.that refuse it to them are buying themselves a decline in their
:45:03. > :45:06.economic prosperity across the whole range. It is appalling. I will be
:45:07. > :45:13.frank about this. These have been 200 young men, if they had been, we
:45:14. > :45:15.would have seen more attention paid and the Nigerian government would
:45:16. > :45:23.have done something more effective. I hope we don't stop at a certain
:45:24. > :45:28.amount of help of the kind that Chuka is talking about. The key
:45:29. > :45:32.thing is that the United Nations itself has got to build-up an
:45:33. > :45:36.emergency international force which can go in right away when things
:45:37. > :45:41.like this happen. What you have got at the moment was that desperate
:45:42. > :45:48.two-week-long delay that Caroline talked about which means that the
:45:49. > :45:53.poor girls will have been dispersed all over the jungles of Nigeria. If
:45:54. > :45:57.the United Nations had come in and said to the President of Nigeria,
:45:58. > :46:06."We are here to help and we will move right away." Then I think we
:46:07. > :46:12.could have saved many lives. Nigel? Nigel Farage? It is a good question.
:46:13. > :46:17.What American military intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq has done -
:46:18. > :46:19.of course with the support of the Labour Government and the
:46:20. > :46:24.Conservative opposition - what actually it's done is to not
:46:25. > :46:29.stabilise those countries, or make them better, but to leave behind a
:46:30. > :46:33.bitter legacy, a split behind, tens of millions of Islamic people and
:46:34. > :46:37.the Americans to be wider than ever before. I understand the nature of
:46:38. > :46:40.your question. In this particular occasion, we should recognise there
:46:41. > :46:44.is a massive difference between sending an army into a country
:46:45. > :46:48.looking for regime change and doing something for purely humanitarian
:46:49. > :46:52.reasons and I think, thank goodness Obama, it may have been delayed, but
:46:53. > :46:55.thank goodness he said what he said. It's got the whole international
:46:56. > :46:58.community saying something must be done and for once, I would be happy
:46:59. > :47:00.if we were to help the Americans and go out there and try and find these
:47:01. > :47:13.girls. I really would. You, Sir? It is a huge wake-up call
:47:14. > :47:17.that Boko Haram are out there. I'm a father of three. Lots of people will
:47:18. > :47:20.be imagining what it must be like for one of your children, or your
:47:21. > :47:27.girl not to come home from school. It is tragic. The Nigerians have no
:47:28. > :47:32.doubt been very slow to respond. William Hague spoke to his
:47:33. > :47:36.counterpart as long ago as Good Friday, immediately this was going
:47:37. > :47:39.on. The Prime Minister spoke to the Nigerian President yesterday. We
:47:40. > :47:46.have been offering help throughout and we have got military, British
:47:47. > :47:49.military teams there in Nigeria. Foreign Office counter terrorism
:47:50. > :47:52.experts there. We have some ability to help. It is extraordinary it's
:47:53. > :47:55.taken this long. Thank goodness things are now happening. To
:47:56. > :47:59.directly answer the question, I think the American impetus has been
:48:00. > :48:02.very important. We are working with the French and Americans on this. I
:48:03. > :48:08.will make one final point. This country can be proud that through
:48:09. > :48:13.our work and our aid budget, 800,000 Nigerian children, including 600,000
:48:14. > :48:17.girls, are going to school in that country every day. It is all because
:48:18. > :48:20.of Britain. I will take a couple of points from people with their hands
:48:21. > :48:25.up - from you and then from you - and then from you? I know that you
:48:26. > :48:29.are saying that military intervention wouldn't be a good
:48:30. > :48:33.idea. What can be done to get these girls back? That is where the
:48:34. > :48:37.satellite and surveillance assistance is crucial. I think
:48:38. > :48:40.President Goodluck Jonathan was referring to that today. You can
:48:41. > :48:47.send in the troops, but it is in the bush. Where do they go? You, on the
:48:48. > :48:50.left? I'm troubled by the expression "war on terror". It is a crime. It
:48:51. > :48:56.is kidnap and people trafficking. If people had seen this as a crime from
:48:57. > :49:05.the outset, people would have been quicker to act. It's a crime. Pure
:49:06. > :49:08.and simple. The answer to that is it is both. Of course, it is a crime,
:49:09. > :49:13.but undoubtedly in the northern states in Nigeria, there are no-go
:49:14. > :49:21.areas for people because of what is happening. You? I would like to add
:49:22. > :49:25.Christians are being heavily persecuted and killed by people and
:49:26. > :49:35.is there anything the West can do to help? OK. I will take one last
:49:36. > :49:43.question. Being from Afghanistan - I agree with 100% with Nigel Farage.
:49:44. > :49:46.If America go somewhere, they stay in that country. Rather than
:49:47. > :49:54.humanitarian things, we don't want them to go there, gun blazing and
:49:55. > :49:58.ruin Nigeria. We are talking about counter-intelligence... Alright. I
:49:59. > :50:02.don't trust him, that is the problem. You have made the point. We
:50:03. > :50:06.have five minutes. I want to take this question, which has caused a
:50:07. > :50:11.storm in the House of Commons at Question Time on Wednesday. It comes
:50:12. > :50:18.from Peter Haylings. In five minutes, I hope we can hear. Should
:50:19. > :50:27.shareholders or politicians decide the outcome of Pfizer's bid to buy
:50:28. > :50:31.AstraZeneca? This is this huge bid, it last stood at ?63 billion. The
:50:32. > :50:34.biggest-ever takeover of a British company. The question is do the
:50:35. > :50:39.politicians decide whether it should go ahead, or the people who are
:50:40. > :50:43.shareholders in the companies? OK, Grant Shapps? The shareholders
:50:44. > :50:47.ultimately are the people who own the company. But, it is very
:50:48. > :50:50.important to say that the British Government should have the stance of
:50:51. > :50:55.being neutral, making sure we get the best deal for Britain and I can
:50:56. > :50:58.tell you exactly what that means... Hang on, should be neutral? Neutral
:50:59. > :51:02.in terms of making sure it is the best deal for Britain. How can you
:51:03. > :51:07.decide that? I will tell you if you let me finish the question. British
:51:08. > :51:10.jobs, British research, British R, British medicines in this particular
:51:11. > :51:14.case, British technology. Those are the tests, what is going to provide
:51:15. > :51:19.the best outcome for Britain. If you look at things like the British car
:51:20. > :51:25.industry as it stands today. Nissan produce more cars in this country
:51:26. > :51:29.than the whole of Italy. That is because Britain has been an economy
:51:30. > :51:32.which has attracted more foreign investment to this country than the
:51:33. > :51:37.whole of the rest of Europe put together. You don't know, do you,
:51:38. > :51:41.what is going to happen with Pfizer? No no-one can predict the future. If
:51:42. > :51:46.you can't predict the future, can you stop them coming, can you stop
:51:47. > :51:54.them if you want to? You speak to both sides. Can you answer MY
:51:55. > :51:58.question? Can you stop them? The laws mean there's limited ability
:51:59. > :52:04.for governments to intervene. These are laws... So you can't? Wait a
:52:05. > :52:08.moment. No, wait a moment. Let's be clear. You are saying that the
:52:09. > :52:12.Government, despite expressing an interest, cannot stop this deal
:52:13. > :52:17.going ahead? The Government is able to put in place public interest
:52:18. > :52:21.tests according to a 2003 piece of legislation that the previous Labour
:52:22. > :52:25.Government put through. They removed politicians directly from the role
:52:26. > :52:29.unless there are specific national interests. I can tell you what they
:52:30. > :52:32.are. No, no. Everybody has their view. The question is whether
:52:33. > :52:38.anything can be done? Shirley Williams? Can anything be done? In
:52:39. > :52:42.2002, the Enterprise Act was brought in by the Labour Government and
:52:43. > :52:49.removed public interest except for two things. One was national
:52:50. > :52:57.security. The second one was you couldn't have one owner owning the
:52:58. > :53:00.press. Everything else was ruled out. They went from a liberal
:53:01. > :53:04.position to a more regulated position which did not permit, did
:53:05. > :53:10.not permit the public interest to cover the whole range. What that
:53:11. > :53:17.means is we are emasculated in doing much about AstraZeneca and what is
:53:18. > :53:21.really sad is a brilliant emergence as a scientific and research nation
:53:22. > :53:25.is put at risk. Don't blame the politicians. The law doesn't allow
:53:26. > :53:30.the Coalition Government to do what you want it to do. One other thing.
:53:31. > :53:34.It can try and get a pledge out of Pfizer and they haven't been very
:53:35. > :53:38.good at upholding pledges. The only strength, the only power we have,
:53:39. > :53:43.frankly, is the ability of the NHS to go out and buy pharmaceuticals
:53:44. > :53:48.and maybe we should use that ability more strongly than we have done so
:53:49. > :53:51.far. Chuka? You were making great play of this in the House of
:53:52. > :53:54.Commons. Do you accept the point Shirley makes, there isn't anything
:53:55. > :53:57.a British Government can do? There isn't at the moment, which is why we
:53:58. > :54:00.have extended a hand to the Government and said we will work
:54:01. > :54:04.with them to change the law so something can be done. The question
:54:05. > :54:12.was should it be the shareholders or the politicians? Where you have
:54:13. > :54:15.certain strategic national assets - let's not forget, this is one of the
:54:16. > :54:18.jewels in the crown of British industry. It is our second biggest
:54:19. > :54:23.pharmaceutical company. It accounts for 3% of our exports. That is why,
:54:24. > :54:25.particularly when you have got companies like this, which are so
:54:26. > :54:32.important to our science base, so important to our R, Government has
:54:33. > :54:37.a role to play. Can I say... No, just a role to play? Do you want to
:54:38. > :54:40.see a British Government able to prevent a deal like this going
:54:41. > :54:44.ahead, that is the question? If it is not good for R and science
:54:45. > :54:49.base, we would like to see... That is what you would like to see? The
:54:50. > :54:54.question is - in November 2012, you said it seems to me having a broad
:54:55. > :54:58.public interest test risks creating uncertainty and you came out against
:54:59. > :55:06.it. You are saying the same as I'm saying. Jobs, R
:55:07. > :55:10.it. You are saying the same as I'm Caroline? The Pfizer CEO gave a
:55:11. > :55:13.number of commitments... You believe commitments... ? They are not worth
:55:14. > :55:17.the paper they are written on. He then said on a call with journalists
:55:18. > :55:20.on Friday that he was going to break up the company in three different
:55:21. > :55:27.parts which could be sold off. Let's stick to this question. Caroline
:55:28. > :55:32.Lucas? You want to change the law? You agree with changing the law? You
:55:33. > :55:39.are not. OK. We should get the best deal for Britain. Caroline Lucas?
:55:40. > :55:43.The point is... No, no. The answer is making sure we get the direct
:55:44. > :55:47.investment... Caroline Lucas? And then Nigel Farage and then we must
:55:48. > :55:55.stop. We should reform the laws so that politicians can intervene in a
:55:56. > :55:59.strategic area. I think that the whole era of economic globalisation,
:56:00. > :56:02.where we are at the mercy of corporate takeovers is something
:56:03. > :56:07.that needs to be challenged. I don't want to see a Britain where we have
:56:08. > :56:10.our manufacturing, what is left of it, hollowed out. I don't want to
:56:11. > :56:14.see a Britain where we are just flaunting ourselves as a tax haven.
:56:15. > :56:18.I tell you what, if people come, if Pfizer comes to Britain because we
:56:19. > :56:21.have the lowest tax, you can bet your bottom dollar that when another
:56:22. > :56:25.country has a lower tax rate, they will be off again. It is
:56:26. > :56:31.unsustainable. Nigel Farage? Can I say one thing? You can't. We have
:56:32. > :56:38.run out of time. Nigel Farage, you have the last say. Will it be in
:56:39. > :56:45.your manifesto? It will not be the British Government that decides and
:56:46. > :56:49.the... He is going to say Europe. These three parties on this panel -
:56:50. > :56:57.if you listen to them - they say the law needs to be changed. Let Nigel
:56:58. > :57:04.Farage just finish his sentence, Chuka. You are either wilfully lying
:57:05. > :57:10.to these people or you are pig ignorant. Vince Cable in this
:57:11. > :57:13.debate, when he was pushed, admitted the ultimate decision as to whether
:57:14. > :57:24.AstraZeneca... No, he didn't. I was in that debate. Pfizer will be
:57:25. > :57:32.taken... Nigel, you... We have given away... Listen, everybody. Steady
:57:33. > :57:36.on! This is what it is like. Nigel? We have had years of this from these
:57:37. > :57:42.people. There is an enormous elephant in the room. Nigel Farage?
:57:43. > :57:46.Will you listen to me, just for a moment? Yes. That is the end of the
:57:47. > :57:51.debate. If Britain pulls out of the EU, are you saying that a British
:57:52. > :57:56.Government would be able to stop takeover? Yes. Finally. Alright.
:57:57. > :58:07.You have got one point to go in your manifesto. Our time is up. Next
:58:08. > :58:25.week, we will be in Coventry. We have a panel that includes Caroline
:58:26. > :58:31.Flint, Paddy Ashdown and Esther Mcvey. If you would like to take
:58:32. > :58:34.part in either programme, go to www.bbc.co.uk/questiontime. If you
:58:35. > :58:38.are listening to this on BBC Five Live, the debate goes on there. It
:58:39. > :58:42.probably goes on here once we have left this studio! My thanks to this
:58:43. > :58:45.panel and to all of you who came to take part as our audience here in
:58:46. > :58:49.Southampton. From Question Time, until next Thursday, good night.
:58:50. > :59:21.My fellow friends, it's time to get your glad rags on,
:59:22. > :59:34.invite your friends over, and bring out the hors d'oeuvres,