:00:00. > :00:19.Tonight, we are in Coventry, and welcome to Question Time.
:00:20. > :00:22.Good evening to you at home, welcome to our audience, who will be putting
:00:23. > :00:26.questions to the panel who do not know the questions until they hear
:00:27. > :00:33.them from the audience. The panel, Conservative employment Minister
:00:34. > :00:37.Esther McVey, Labour's shadow energy Secretary, Caroline Flint, the man
:00:38. > :00:42.who is spearheading next year's Liberal Democrat general election
:00:43. > :00:45.campaign, Paddy Ashdown, the SNP was Mike Humza Yousaf, the Scottish
:00:46. > :00:46.Government's external affairs minister, and the Daily Telegraph
:00:47. > :01:05.blogger, Tim Stanley. Thank you very much, and the first
:01:06. > :01:12.question from RM has shimmy, please. Should Gary Barlow hand back his
:01:13. > :01:16.OBE? Should Gary Barlow hand back his OBE, the Take That singer with a
:01:17. > :01:23.huge amount of tax avoidance which apparently has to be paid back.
:01:24. > :01:29.Should he also hand back his OBE? Humza Yousaf. It is a good question.
:01:30. > :01:35.I have to say that Gary Barlow's OBE, frankly I do not care about it.
:01:36. > :01:43.He should return the ?20 million that he has avoided paying. I am
:01:44. > :01:48.going to get a ribbing for this back home, but I have to confess my
:01:49. > :01:52.guilty pleasure. I am quite a Take That farm and I have the albums at
:01:53. > :01:58.home. Let me tell you why this is significant. Firstly, we have a UK
:01:59. > :02:02.Government that tells us the reason for their austerity cuts, the cuts
:02:03. > :02:05.that are hitting the disabled and the poorest in society, they are
:02:06. > :02:12.because they don't have a penny in the budget. And they say that while
:02:13. > :02:18.there is ?35 billion of tax that has not been collected. How can you have
:02:19. > :02:22.no money and yet have ?35 billion of tax not collected by the government
:02:23. > :02:29.because HMRC and the government cannot get their act together? The
:02:30. > :02:33.second point to make on this issue is what has characterised the UK
:02:34. > :02:38.Government over the last four years is how it treats the wealthiest in
:02:39. > :02:42.society versus the poorest in society. If you had a dispute with
:02:43. > :02:45.HMRC, you would have them sending letters, the government sending
:02:46. > :02:50.notices, you would probably have them knocking on your very door. The
:02:51. > :02:54.disabled and the poorest are relentlessly pursued to get them
:02:55. > :02:58.back into work. In Scotland we had a blind diabetic, Henry Sherlock, who
:02:59. > :03:06.was bullied and harassed to get into work. You are moving rather far away
:03:07. > :03:08.from tax avoidance. If you are a millionaire and avoiding tax, you
:03:09. > :03:18.don't get a slap on the wrist, not even a tickle. That is the hypocrisy
:03:19. > :03:22.of it. Esther McVey. Well, the flaw in that logic is the fact that we
:03:23. > :03:26.are going after millionaires to get the money to make sure they pay the
:03:27. > :03:32.tax, and celebrities, to make sure they pay their tax. More than ever
:03:33. > :03:37.before, this government is making sure that people are paying their
:03:38. > :03:40.tax and not avoiding tax. And it is only fair and right that each and
:03:41. > :03:46.every one of us here pays our tax bill, because that tax bill enables
:03:47. > :03:49.us to have the NHS we want, the schools that we want, the transport
:03:50. > :03:54.that we want, everything that is right in a good, solid community and
:03:55. > :04:02.country. So it is right we go after that. It is important that we go
:04:03. > :04:06.after that money. But, the question as to whether he should hand back
:04:07. > :04:10.his OBE, no, I don't think he should. That was for so much charity
:04:11. > :04:15.work he has done, so much that he has done for the music industry.
:04:16. > :04:19.That was separate. If I had the offer of an OBE or ?63 million and I
:04:20. > :04:27.was the government, I would be taking back the ?63 million. The
:04:28. > :04:31.woman in the striped shirt. Esther McVey says they are going after
:04:32. > :04:33.millionaires and celebrities, but are they also going after
:04:34. > :04:43.corporations that avoid massive tax bills? Let's stick with Gary Barlow
:04:44. > :04:46.for the moment. It is a bit rich for the Conservatives to say they are
:04:47. > :04:49.going after tax money. George Osborne did not come into politics
:04:50. > :04:54.to take money off rich people. He is doing it because we are telling him
:04:55. > :05:00.to. Jimmy Carter got abuse for his tax affairs, and yet yesterday in
:05:01. > :05:04.Parliament David Cameron made a joke about Gary Barlow. He should not
:05:05. > :05:13.give back his OBE, we should take it back from him. The gentleman is
:05:14. > :05:17.quite right, because when it was a comedian in the spotlight, David
:05:18. > :05:21.Cameron said it was morally wrong what happened there. But when it has
:05:22. > :05:27.come to Gary Barlow, he has taken a different tack. It seems to me that
:05:28. > :05:32.probably everyone here and people watching, most of us pay as we earn.
:05:33. > :05:35.We pay our tax, and what we have not got its access to accountants and
:05:36. > :05:41.others who can find a way for us to hide our money. I am not that
:05:42. > :05:45.interested about the OBE, although it might be worth checking out
:05:46. > :05:49.people's tax situation before we award one. But what I do think is
:05:50. > :05:52.that Gary Barlow and the many others like him should not only pay that
:05:53. > :05:59.tax back, but where it is proven they should pay penalties as well.
:06:00. > :06:03.Hang on a second. You said something quite serious. They should pay
:06:04. > :06:08.penalties? Let's be absolutely clear. As I understand it, tax
:06:09. > :06:12.avoidance schemes have two be registered with the HMRC, and then
:06:13. > :06:15.they decide whether to accept a scheme. So there is not a criminal
:06:16. > :06:22.offence. Why should you pay a penalty? If these things are found
:06:23. > :06:26.to be wrong and beyond what HMRC are saying, they should pay penalties as
:06:27. > :06:28.well. People are fed up of seeing wealthy people and corporations
:06:29. > :06:33.getting out of their tax obligations. The fact is your
:06:34. > :06:38.government, David Cameron decided to give a tax cut to people earning
:06:39. > :06:42.over ?150,000 a year, even though you wanted to harm people through
:06:43. > :06:49.the bedroom tax. A brief answer to that. To point out the factual
:06:50. > :06:52.inaccuracies, we have tightened the rules, we are getting more in than
:06:53. > :06:57.ever before and we have increased the penalties. Because we all know
:06:58. > :07:04.that money should come back to the British public. So factually
:07:05. > :07:08.inaccurate, Caroline. I agree with the point you are making about the
:07:09. > :07:14.top rate of tax. I think it comes down to the question of an optimal
:07:15. > :07:21.rate. If it is set to hide, it does deter rich people away. -- if it is
:07:22. > :07:26.set to high. There has to be a decision where the top level is set,
:07:27. > :07:32.otherwise rich people move abroad. What do you think about Gary Barlow?
:07:33. > :07:36.He should handle all the money back, but he should keep his OBE, on the
:07:37. > :07:39.grounds of how much he has done for the UK, in terms of charity work and
:07:40. > :07:49.obviously services to the music industry. He has done nothing
:07:50. > :07:53.illegal. If I had ?63 million and I could afford to pay accountants to
:07:54. > :07:58.help me not pay as much tax as I possibly could, even earning ?40,000
:07:59. > :08:03.a year. If I could get someone to do that and save me money in my pocket,
:08:04. > :08:12.I would do it, and I am sure 90% of this audience would do it. Paddy
:08:13. > :08:18.Ashdown, do you want to pick up on that? I want to pick up on the point
:08:19. > :08:22.which Esther McVey made. He received the OBE for other things and I think
:08:23. > :08:26.the case for that stands. Should it be removed? No. Should he pay the
:08:27. > :08:30.penalty for the steps he has taken to avoid taxation, yes. That is
:08:31. > :08:40.where we should concentrate. That is my view. Humza's point, as usual,
:08:41. > :08:43.parts company with fact and reality. The government has disastrous cut
:08:44. > :08:50.the deficit, it is the poor that have paid the price. No, it is not.
:08:51. > :08:54.As a result of the work done by the Liberal Democrats, 25 million people
:08:55. > :09:00.have had ?800 less in taxation every year. 2.7 million of the lowest paid
:09:01. > :09:06.have been taken out of tax altogether. There is now 2.5 million
:09:07. > :09:11.being paid to the families of the poorest pupils in pupil premium to
:09:12. > :09:15.help them with education. Pensioners in this country are now getting ?600
:09:16. > :09:21.more in their pension annually than they ever got under Labour. Quite
:09:22. > :09:26.the contrary. What we have seen is the deficit cut by one third already
:09:27. > :09:31.and by half by next year, while the economy is now growing faster than
:09:32. > :09:36.ever before, and there is 1.3 million new jobs being created and
:09:37. > :09:41.1.5 million apprentices. And tax avoidance as an issue? Tax avoidance
:09:42. > :09:45.is a very big issue but it is true to say this government is pursuing
:09:46. > :09:50.that with more resources than any previous government has done. Every
:09:51. > :09:54.government wants to tackle tax avoidance. Of course it is a big
:09:55. > :09:57.issue and anybody who avoids taxes should be pursued. It is not easy
:09:58. > :10:02.but the government is devoting resources to that on a larger scale
:10:03. > :10:05.than we have seen before. But the central point is that the tough
:10:06. > :10:08.action the government has taken has cut the deficit, has begun to repair
:10:09. > :10:14.the economy that was trashed by Labour, while at the same time
:10:15. > :10:20.getting the economy to grow by 1.7% and probably more than that by the
:10:21. > :10:24.time the election comes, and 1.3 million new jobs. That is not a bad
:10:25. > :10:36.record, and it is not on the backs of the poor. Someone said to me a
:10:37. > :10:43.couple of days ago, should Gary Barlow give back his OBE? And I
:10:44. > :10:47.replied, Gary Barlow has an OBE! It is not just for services to the
:10:48. > :10:52.music industry, because that would be an irony too far. It is also for
:10:53. > :10:55.charity work. He is not a bad man and has done it and is not a bad man
:10:56. > :10:58.and has done a comment as amount for this country for which he and was
:10:59. > :11:02.rightly rewarded. If the allegations are true, he took advantage of
:11:03. > :11:06.something which is perfectly legal. We might not become the ball with it
:11:07. > :11:12.and that is understandable, and some people may even be quite angry with
:11:13. > :11:15.it, given how much he makes. Some people are applauding. But he has
:11:16. > :11:21.done something that is perfectly legal. When a tax system that is
:11:22. > :11:25.incredibly compact or avaricious, it encourages people to take advantage
:11:26. > :11:28.of such loopholes and to move their money overseas. Loopholes which
:11:29. > :11:33.previous governments have encouraged in order to get rich people to stay.
:11:34. > :11:37.If the tax system were simpler and taxes were lower, those people would
:11:38. > :11:42.be more in plot -- inclined to obey the rules totally, not move anything
:11:43. > :11:48.overseas and do the right thing. If we bring taxes down, as this
:11:49. > :11:53.government has done for some, you actually find that income goes up.
:11:54. > :12:03.So let's lower it, simplify it, and this sort of thing won't happen.
:12:04. > :12:16.You can join in the debate on text or Twitter. The red button is the
:12:17. > :12:21.one to push if you want to see what people are saying. Elizabeth
:12:22. > :12:25.Kimberley, please. Is Michael Gove and ideological obsessed zealot, and
:12:26. > :12:36.should he be reined in over his free schools policy?
:12:37. > :12:41.These were quotes attributed to Liberal Democrat sources over a row
:12:42. > :12:45.over funding free schools at the expense of other school 's,
:12:46. > :12:51.extensive quotes about him acting in a way that was nothing short of
:12:52. > :12:57.lunacy. Caroline Flint, do you agree with ideological obsessed zealot who
:12:58. > :13:01.should be reined in? There are 22,000 state schools of which free
:13:02. > :13:07.schools represent less than 1%. I wish there was more discussion about
:13:08. > :13:14.the 22,000. But what we have seen in the last week is a situation where
:13:15. > :13:18.we have had Michael Gove and Nick Clegg at each other's throats over
:13:19. > :13:21.education policy. Nick Clegg has his free school meals policy, and
:13:22. > :13:25.apparently funding for that was not worked out and was being trashed by
:13:26. > :13:30.the Tories. On the free schools, we now find there is an 800 million
:13:31. > :13:36.black hole in which they have had to raid money from primary schools to
:13:37. > :13:41.fill the gap. RU in favour of schools? I am in favour of
:13:42. > :13:45.academies, and what we have said is that if we win the next general
:13:46. > :13:50.election we will have three tests in place. One is that schools should be
:13:51. > :13:53.in areas of need. One of the problems with free schools is that
:13:54. > :13:57.two thirds of them are secondary schools, which does not help primary
:13:58. > :13:59.schools, and they are not in the right places to help the need for
:14:00. > :14:04.primary school places. Secondly, we need oversight to deal with some of
:14:05. > :14:08.the problems that have emerged. Thirdly, we believe you should have
:14:09. > :14:12.qualified teachers in all schools, or people working towards
:14:13. > :14:16.qualifications. The problem is that in the last week what we have seen,
:14:17. > :14:19.and I can't quite work out whether it is just Liberal Democrats and
:14:20. > :14:23.Tories trying to differentiate themselves because there is an
:14:24. > :14:33.election next week, or whether it is incompetence. I feel it is a bit of
:14:34. > :14:38.both. Paddy Ashdown what do you make of the Liberal Democrats accusing
:14:39. > :14:42.Michael Gove? There has been hot-headed language on both sides.
:14:43. > :14:48.It's not my style of politics. I don't agree with some of the more
:14:49. > :14:52.colourful adjective used by either sides. Not the politicians
:14:53. > :14:57.concerned, their supporting staff, they are the ones who can let loose
:14:58. > :15:02.a bit and the press will pick it up. I don't think that is the issue,
:15:03. > :15:06.frankly. If some officials want to use overheated language, fine, let
:15:07. > :15:11.them do so. There is a rift? Certainly not over school meals and
:15:12. > :15:14.the principle of free school meals from September you will get that.
:15:15. > :15:19.It's a very significant advance. I don't say every school will be in a
:15:20. > :15:23.position to deliver from September. 90-95% will. That is a significant
:15:24. > :15:26.move. I'm proud it's the Liberal Democrats who led it, with the
:15:27. > :15:31.support of the Conservatives, very clearly expressed. On the issue of
:15:32. > :15:34.free schools. I'm glad Caroline Flint told us the Labour Party is in
:15:35. > :15:39.favour of free schools. There has been doubt about this as they went
:15:40. > :15:43.backwards and forwards in the last year. They have come clean. I'm
:15:44. > :15:46.delighted about that. I am too. It offers choice. Who delivers is not
:15:47. > :15:51.as important as what is the standard of the education that is delivered.
:15:52. > :15:57.Provided it's universal access, free-for-all to go to, paid for from
:15:58. > :15:59.taxation and subject to proper inspection and quality control.
:16:00. > :16:04.Those are the three concerns I have. Now, what worries me about the free
:16:05. > :16:11.schools is not the principle, I'm in favour of that. In the way it has
:16:12. > :16:14.been enacted. We are now facing a very serious pressure on school
:16:15. > :16:19.places. There are some local authorities who will not this year
:16:20. > :16:24.be able to provide their statutory duties to parents to provide places
:16:25. > :16:31.for their children. At that time, to take ?400 million out of the funds
:16:32. > :16:35.for basic needs, and put it into try and fill ?800 million black hole in
:16:36. > :16:40.the free school budget, seems to me to be wrong. We have said so. I
:16:41. > :16:43.think it's right that we should. The job of the Liberal Democrats in this
:16:44. > :16:47.Government is to hold people to account when they move in directions
:16:48. > :16:51.that we think are not fair. Now, I agree with free schools, but the way
:16:52. > :16:55.that this has been enacted so far, the shift of that money from where
:16:56. > :17:00.it is desperately needed to face a crisis, to fill a black hole in an
:17:01. > :17:04.area which is not, I think are gives it a bad reputation. It's very well
:17:05. > :17:09.you saying that. We are in agreement on that. The truth is, the Liberal
:17:10. > :17:14.Democrats signed up to this policy. No. They signed up to the budgets
:17:15. > :17:17.being set. Clearly, the budgets weren't thought threw. That is why
:17:18. > :17:22.primary school money in the state sector is being raided right now.
:17:23. > :17:24.There is not a single thing that Liberal Democrat MP or a member of
:17:25. > :17:28.the Government sitting on the benches with the Conservative
:17:29. > :17:33.ministers can do about it. That is wrong. What will you do about it?
:17:34. > :17:36.You would have signed up to the policy too. It's not the principle
:17:37. > :17:40.of the policy? No. You said you were in favour of free schools, are you
:17:41. > :17:43.not? Is This is about the budget. No the principle of free schools, are
:17:44. > :17:46.you in favour of them or not? When the policy was set up, it was not
:17:47. > :17:49.about endangering other funding for primary schools that weren't free
:17:50. > :17:55.schools. What has happened, as you quite rightly said, there is an ?800
:17:56. > :18:00.million black hole, 50% of under spend has gone to pay for it. 50%
:18:01. > :18:02.coming from the basic needs budget from primary schools. The Liberal
:18:03. > :18:07.Democrat ministers haven't been doing the job they should be doing.
:18:08. > :18:14.Auto who identified this but Liberal Democrat ministers. Tories are
:18:15. > :18:22.accused of having taken this money out and left a black hole behind.
:18:23. > :18:25.Michael Gove is accused of being ideologically obsessed what do you
:18:26. > :18:31.say about the argument from Paddy Ashdown and Caroline Flint? Driven
:18:32. > :18:34.and determined to make sure we have excellent education, I would say,
:18:35. > :18:38.yes. Caroline, when you know Labour's record is that one in three
:18:39. > :18:45.kids left primary school unable to read, write and do maths. What was
:18:46. > :18:49.it like in 97? We fell down the tables in maths, English and
:18:50. > :18:53.science, it's not accept. What we want to do is make sure all children
:18:54. > :18:57.from all backgrounds get the best possible education that we can have.
:18:58. > :19:02.That is why he is driven. That is why he is focussed. This is a lad
:19:03. > :19:05.who was adopted. Went to a comprehensive school. Worked up to
:19:06. > :19:09.Oxford. Of course he is driven and focussed. He wants to make sure that
:19:10. > :19:15.everybody has that opportunity to succeed where they can. Free
:19:16. > :19:22.schools, well, 80% of them are built now and made in areas of economic
:19:23. > :19:26.deprivation. 0% are in areas of absolute need, where parents, staff,
:19:27. > :19:33.teachers have come forward and said - we want to build these schools for
:19:34. > :19:37.our kids. -- 70%. That is the reality. The money for new places at
:19:38. > :19:42.schools have doubled. ?5 billion. Wrong there. We would all agree we
:19:43. > :19:44.want to make sure our kids get the best education something they
:19:45. > :19:50.weren't getting under Labour. What about the ?400 million that Paddy
:19:51. > :19:54.Ashdown referred to, wrongly taken out of one budget - Wasn't wrongly
:19:55. > :19:58.taken out of a budget. If people need the schools and people want to
:19:59. > :20:01.support those schools, a and parents and teachers are saying this is what
:20:02. > :20:04.we need in our area, they are the people who should have the say. We
:20:05. > :20:12.need to do that. This is a protected budget. It has doubled for new
:20:13. > :20:16.school places by ?5 billion. The main parties aren't actually
:20:17. > :20:20.listening to parents. 207,000 people put in a protest to the Government
:20:21. > :20:26.to change a policy that was introduced in September last year.
:20:27. > :20:32.The main parties aren't listening to adults make -- sorry, decision
:20:33. > :20:38.abouts things and not talking to us. Was the policy? School attendance
:20:39. > :20:42.policy was completely ignored by the department - the petition for the
:20:43. > :20:48.school attendance reversal. You, sir, at the back. I think it's not
:20:49. > :20:51.so much the opportunity for parents to choose the school, it's the
:20:52. > :20:56.consequences of those schools choosing against the other schools.
:20:57. > :21:05.The 2,000 are getting more than the 22,000. 200. The 200, even worse!
:21:06. > :21:09.OK. Over here. You, sir. Yes. When you look at this, there is a
:21:10. > :21:12.fundamental contradiction. Local authorities are legally bound to
:21:13. > :21:16.provide school places and, at the same time, they are banned from
:21:17. > :21:24.opening schools of their own. You end up with schools with Portakabins
:21:25. > :21:29.on the car park or office blocks being converted. That will not give
:21:30. > :21:38.us good universal education. You, sir, second row from the back.
:21:39. > :21:41.Esther said about different numeracy problems, dropping down in the
:21:42. > :21:45.tables, that is with Government intervention. Surely the Government
:21:46. > :21:53.should butt out and let the teachers teach.
:21:54. > :21:57.APPLAUSE The sliding down of the league
:21:58. > :22:01.tables took place in the latter years of the Labour Government.
:22:02. > :22:07.There has been a mild improve am since Gove took over. If Michael
:22:08. > :22:13.Gove is an Ied log, I will be honest, I'm fanatical member of his
:22:14. > :22:17.barmy army, I think he's marvellous. If you take the case of free
:22:18. > :22:21.schools. If you take the case of free schools. The reason why so much
:22:22. > :22:26.money has to be diverted towards them is because they are popular.
:22:27. > :22:29.Since the policy started 300 have been set up. Three people are trying
:22:30. > :22:36.to get one place. If you get into a free school, that school is twice as
:22:37. > :22:40.likely to end up being regarded as outstanding as a normal school is.
:22:41. > :22:45.They are incredibly successful. You in Coventry will get two new free
:22:46. > :22:51.schools, I believe, faith schools, one Muslim and one seek, they will
:22:52. > :22:57.take -- Sikh, they will take 50% of people not from those faiths. You
:22:58. > :23:01.are fortunate. The statistics show those schools outperform the
:23:02. > :23:09.so-called normal schools. The whole principle of Michael Gove's approach
:23:10. > :23:12.is to hand power back to teachers and parents, it's not about taking
:23:13. > :23:17.it away from them, it's about empowering. The parents set it up.
:23:18. > :23:24.You will have to persuade the woman here in the front who has been...
:23:25. > :23:28.Happily. Have worked in it for four years. I'm leaving after four years.
:23:29. > :23:32.The man in control does not what he is doing at all.
:23:33. > :23:36.APPLAUSE He is not interested in the
:23:37. > :23:43.profession. Why are so many parents setting them up? Why do you say
:23:44. > :23:46.that? I feel like he - he's making decisions and he doesn't know the
:23:47. > :23:50.profession, he doesn't understand the stresses and the pressures we
:23:51. > :23:54.are under at all. He hasn't worked in it. I don't understand how he is
:23:55. > :23:59.making decisions based on no experience whatsoever. No wonder
:24:00. > :24:02.they are going wrong? Jeremy Hunt is minister for health, he is not a
:24:03. > :24:05.drchlt you run a ministry, you come into it with ideas and general
:24:06. > :24:10.experience when it comes to administration. Have you seen what
:24:11. > :24:17.he is doing to the health service of England? That's where we are going
:24:18. > :24:21.wrong! Is Scotland is in a different position on this. We will hear from
:24:22. > :24:27.you. The woman in the third row, yes, from the back. Oh, hello! Yes,
:24:28. > :24:31.I mean, I just like to pick up on that point. I think absolutely the
:24:32. > :24:37.problem is that Gove does not listen at all. He doesn't listen to
:24:38. > :24:41.teachers. He's constantly rubbishing teachers and student students'
:24:42. > :24:46.achievements, he doesn't listen to educational experts. He dismiss what
:24:47. > :24:51.educational experts say if they disagree with them, he regards them
:24:52. > :24:58.as raving marxists. I want to pick up on testing. And Pisa testing.
:24:59. > :25:02.Recently in the Guardian there was a letter from a large group of
:25:03. > :25:08.academics, international academics, who were question - it was a letter
:25:09. > :25:18.to the Director of Education for the OECD, saying, what is going on here?
:25:19. > :25:23.Why are these tests dominating education worldwide. Do you want to
:25:24. > :25:27.answer the point she made about - you have said quite a lot. About the
:25:28. > :25:31.Goef point, he doesn't listen. That was your point, wasn't it? I know, I
:25:32. > :25:35.have been out with him on tours that he gets around the country, he meets
:25:36. > :25:40.with people. He meets with kids. He meets with parents. He meets with
:25:41. > :25:47.teachers. Does he act on it All of that is part of a listening examiner
:25:48. > :25:51.countries. You have the best schools and have kids getting the best
:25:52. > :25:56.education it's vital you listen to everybody. I'm sure, you know, he
:25:57. > :26:00.would be disappointed if for you to think that way. I do know that this
:26:01. > :26:05.is something that he is most passionate about and what he came
:26:06. > :26:10.into politics to do. He loves the subject and wants to help people. If
:26:11. > :26:16.he thought you felt that way, maybe he has to do something about maybe
:26:17. > :26:20.how he has come across to you. That isn't the case. The guy really
:26:21. > :26:24.cares. If he wants to talk to me, I would be very pleased to talk to
:26:25. > :26:29.him. APPLAUSE
:26:30. > :26:36.It's PR. I can set up a date between the two of you then! A PR matter for
:26:37. > :26:43.Goef really? Presental improvement. We have stopped the tumbling down
:26:44. > :26:48.the academic tables. We are starting to go up. He has got that right. He
:26:49. > :26:54.is there to change things. People have put them there. Teachers are a
:26:55. > :27:00.unionised special interest. They are resistant to change. That is
:27:01. > :27:06.entirely understandable - How rude! It's changing every four years! When
:27:07. > :27:13.Tim said he was part of the barmy army, I think the barmy party
:27:14. > :27:17.(inaudible) I'm an outside observe server coming from Scotland. In
:27:18. > :27:23.Scotland we don't have free schools we have education controlled by the
:27:24. > :27:26.Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government. Caroline Flint got it
:27:27. > :27:29.correct. These manufactured fights and arguments that they are having
:27:30. > :27:33.between the coalition are because there is a European election of
:27:34. > :27:37.course and a general election in one year's time. Let me give you a
:27:38. > :27:40.Scottish perspective on that. The Scottish perspective is, since the
:27:41. > :27:43.Liberal Democrats leapt into bed with the Conservatives, they lost
:27:44. > :27:47.two-thirds of their seats in the Scottish Parliament. They lost over
:27:48. > :27:51.half their local council election seats, by all projectionses they
:27:52. > :27:55.will lose their single member of the European parliament. My only plea to
:27:56. > :27:58.the audience here, this is an issue issue. My only plea to you, that I
:27:59. > :28:03.have seen from the outside, what they have done with university
:28:04. > :28:07.education, charging students up to ?9,000, in Scotland we decided not
:28:08. > :28:12.to do. That my plea to you is - do not allow them to create a two-tier
:28:13. > :28:15.system of education. Make sure you protect your children's education.
:28:16. > :28:26.It's a right and not a privilege. E.. It
:28:27. > :28:30.APPLAUSE -- It's good to say about funding
:28:31. > :28:34.for schools. Catholic schools have to fund 10% themselves. They are
:28:35. > :28:38.struggling to do it. It's affecting the education of children. What will
:28:39. > :28:45.be done about this? All right. I will take a point from you. Will
:28:46. > :28:50.Goef listen to parents? He hasn't listened to us. He had people in the
:28:51. > :28:55.country screaming at him to change a policy. You saying the free school
:28:56. > :28:59.policy is not approved of by parents. Why do so many parents
:29:00. > :29:04.apparently queue up to go to free schools. He listened to one group of
:29:05. > :29:08.people and listened to you and agreed with the other group of
:29:09. > :29:11.people. That is how decision works. What parents are concerned about,
:29:12. > :29:15.I'm agreed with Esther on this, it is right that everyone has an access
:29:16. > :29:21.to a decent state school education. That is what parents want. Let us
:29:22. > :29:25.have some of the discussion about the 22,000 schools rather than the
:29:26. > :29:32.obsession around 200 schools that are called "free."
:29:33. > :29:44.I just want to correct Humza again. If the university student loans
:29:45. > :29:48.system is so bad, how can it be, and by the way the student fees system
:29:49. > :29:52.introduced was more generous than that under Labour, but how can it be
:29:53. > :29:55.that the number of students going to university has not come down as
:29:56. > :30:02.everybody predicted, but it has gone up? And how can it be that the
:30:03. > :30:05.number of students from the poorest families are much higher as a
:30:06. > :30:11.proportion in England than in Scotland? The system you are
:30:12. > :30:15.claiming does not help the poor is actually ensuring that a higher
:30:16. > :30:20.proportion of poor students are going to English universities than
:30:21. > :30:24.hard today going to Scottish ones. Why did Nick Clegg apologise?
:30:25. > :30:29.Because he was right? That would be a first. Because the promise made
:30:30. > :30:33.before the election was a promise we should not have made. It is not an
:30:34. > :30:36.apology for the policy but for making a promise that was
:30:37. > :30:44.inappropriate in the economic circumstances at the time. That
:30:45. > :30:50.apology is not accepted. Let's go on. Can any possible good arise from
:30:51. > :30:53.the Prime Minister's visit to Scotland today? In the light of the
:30:54. > :31:00.referendum that is coming in the Scotland, can it possibly do any
:31:01. > :31:04.good? Humza, perhaps you should start. He has obviously come to
:31:05. > :31:09.Scotland because of the referendum. My only regret is that he is only up
:31:10. > :31:14.for two days. I wish it was five. I would have paid for his
:31:15. > :31:17.accommodation, because every time David Cameron or a Tory grandee
:31:18. > :31:21.comes to Scotland to say, the earth is going to swallow you up if you
:31:22. > :31:24.become independent and thunderbolts will come from the sky, and you will
:31:25. > :31:27.not get Doctor Who on the television, all of these scare
:31:28. > :31:31.stories that they have come out with, we have seen time and time
:31:32. > :31:34.again over the last six months especially that the campaign to
:31:35. > :31:38.support independence, the yes campaign has increased, and support
:31:39. > :31:43.for the no campaign has begun to diminish. It worries me greatly when
:31:44. > :31:48.I see the polls of the UK general election, because I do not want
:31:49. > :31:53.another Tory government. That is why I support independence, because I
:31:54. > :31:57.want to see in Scotland people get the government that they elect. How
:31:58. > :32:03.absurd is it that David Cameron has come to Scotland? He has one MP in
:32:04. > :32:08.his party, one MP in the entire country. As the old joke goes, if it
:32:09. > :32:12.wasn't so tragic it would be funny that there are more giant pandas in
:32:13. > :32:21.Edinburgh zoo than there are Tory MPs in the entire country. Let me
:32:22. > :32:25.just finished this point... What was the percentage of Scots who voted
:32:26. > :32:30.Conservative at the last general election? I don't know the exact
:32:31. > :32:34.number. You are saying the Prime Minister has no right to go to
:32:35. > :32:40.Scotland. I didn't say that. I actually said I would liken to come
:32:41. > :32:44.to Scotland for even longer. I am quite aware that I am speaking to
:32:45. > :32:49.running dish audience about Scottish independence. Let me put it like
:32:50. > :32:54.this to you. -- to an English audience. Whether you are here, or
:32:55. > :32:59.in Bradford or Newcastle, let's face it, like Vince Cable said, London is
:33:00. > :33:05.a giant sucking machine draining the rest of the UK. The politics of the
:33:06. > :33:08.Westminster establishment is entirely prioritised by the needs of
:33:09. > :33:13.zone one and zone two in London and the south-east of England. If you
:33:14. > :33:18.have the chance to get rid of a Westminster elite that is scandal
:33:19. > :33:28.ridden, that is London obsessed and London centric, I bet you would take
:33:29. > :33:31.it in a heartbeat, too. I think it is too long that the English have
:33:32. > :33:36.been locked out of the debate about the union and I am pleased we are
:33:37. > :33:39.going to finally be a part of it. I think the Better Together campaign
:33:40. > :33:44.made a huge mistake, the people saying let's stay together. They
:33:45. > :33:47.decided to focus on economics, and that turned into essentially
:33:48. > :33:53.economic blackmail. They said, if you become independent, you will
:33:54. > :33:55.starve. That, rightly, offended the Scots and I think it is behind the
:33:56. > :34:00.increase in support for independence. We now have to return
:34:01. > :34:03.to what the debate should be about, which is about the emotional,
:34:04. > :34:09.cultural, political reasons for the union. As an English person who is
:34:10. > :34:14.proudly pro-union, I would like to take this opportunity to say what
:34:15. > :34:18.they are. This is the most successful experiment in
:34:19. > :34:21.multiculturalism in history. For 300 years it has made us wealthier,
:34:22. > :34:26.improved our culture, made us better, more tolerant people. There
:34:27. > :34:31.are people across the globe who look at us and marvel at the wonders and
:34:32. > :34:36.riches that we have. And it is so amazing to think of ourselves as a
:34:37. > :34:41.family, Northern Irishman Welsh, English, Scottish. Very different,
:34:42. > :34:45.bickering, as families always do, but United through walls,
:34:46. > :34:49.depressions, recessions, and coming out of its strong because we are
:34:50. > :34:53.brothers and sisters. Please, Scotland, I say this as an English
:34:54. > :35:05.man so passionately, please, don't leave us, we need you. Well said. So
:35:06. > :35:10.it was a good idea for the Prime Minister to go to Scotland? I think
:35:11. > :35:16.so because he is Prime Minister of the whole United Kingdom. As a
:35:17. > :35:22.Scotsman living in England I see it from both sides of the fence. But
:35:23. > :35:25.recently, I think yesterday, George Osborne was quoted as saying that
:35:26. > :35:30.Alex Salmond was a bully, bullying people into a yes vote. Is George
:35:31. > :35:35.Osborne not as much of a bully, bullying the Scots by saying they
:35:36. > :35:43.won't have a currency union if Scotland vote yes to independence?
:35:44. > :35:46.300 years together, it is like a long relationship, and sometimes
:35:47. > :35:51.when you have been in a relationship with somebody you think, how are we
:35:52. > :35:54.going to stay together? Sometimes you've -- you give warnings,
:35:55. > :35:59.cautious words, whisper sweet nothings to make sure you stay
:36:00. > :36:03.together. So you will be saying things like, can you afford this,
:36:04. > :36:08.will you be able to do this? This is the downside should you leave us. I
:36:09. > :36:11.don't think that is bullying. I think it is somebody who cares about
:36:12. > :36:21.you saying, there are all these things to think about. Because it
:36:22. > :36:25.might be... Hang on a second. You might be making your name on the
:36:26. > :36:30.back of this, and the SNP might be making their name on the back of
:36:31. > :36:33.this, but actually this is a huge history of people who have been
:36:34. > :36:38.together for a long time, and I do believe we are Better Together.
:36:39. > :36:41.Yes, our cultures are different and we have differences between us, but
:36:42. > :36:48.that is what makes us great together. So I would stay together,
:36:49. > :36:52.but I would also heed the warnings. With a name like Esther McVey, I
:36:53. > :36:56.have relatives up there, and I would heed the warnings and listen to how
:36:57. > :37:00.it could work together. But we should listen, too, in England. We
:37:01. > :37:04.need to know why we are rubbing up against each other, why it is not
:37:05. > :37:08.working so well at the moment. There is time for us to listen and get it
:37:09. > :37:17.right as well. But let's get it sorted. Sometimes it is just better
:37:18. > :37:21.to divorce. There is no point continuing in a relationship that's
:37:22. > :37:25.not working. That's get divorced and move on.
:37:26. > :37:30.I would like to know why people in England and Wales are not getting a
:37:31. > :37:34.say on this. It is just for Scotland to vote, but the whole of the UK
:37:35. > :37:39.will be completely changed. So why doesn't everyone else get a say?
:37:40. > :37:47.Because that is the way these things are done, I'm afraid. Tim, it pains
:37:48. > :37:55.me greatly to have two agree with a columnist of the Daily Telegraph.
:37:56. > :38:00.Imagine how I feel right now. You said all the things I would wish to
:38:01. > :38:04.have said. If part of the nation wishes to separate, that part takes
:38:05. > :38:07.the decision, not the nation as a whole. That is the historical
:38:08. > :38:13.principle. You may regret that we don't have a voice in this. Does
:38:14. > :38:17.that apply to the Ukraine as well? It would if there had been a proper
:38:18. > :38:22.referendum but there never has been. But we will get on to that later.
:38:23. > :38:26.The gentleman at the back, you said if it isn't working we should get a
:38:27. > :38:30.divorce. There is no union I camping cover in history that has worked
:38:31. > :38:38.better than this, for 200, 300, 400 years. Let's start off properly. The
:38:39. > :38:43.Scots are a great nation in their own right. They have a fantastic
:38:44. > :38:47.great, individual national history. They have a national education
:38:48. > :38:51.system, a national system of law, different and in some ways better
:38:52. > :38:54.than ours, so they are entitled to have this debate. A should be
:38:55. > :38:59.treated with respect in having this debate and they are entitled to make
:39:00. > :39:04.this choice. Those who argue that Scotland could not survive by itself
:39:05. > :39:07.are talking nonsense, in my view. The argument is not that Scotland
:39:08. > :39:13.can't do this but that we are Better Together. And what worries me most,
:39:14. > :39:17.Humza, listening to you, this is a rhetoric that might suit Scotland if
:39:18. > :39:21.you are debating there, but I cannot listen to your language without
:39:22. > :39:25.being worried about the infusion of hate that is in there, hate of
:39:26. > :39:29.London, hate of this filthy elite, hate of the South, it is the
:39:30. > :39:35.language of division. And the reality of it is that we have made a
:39:36. > :39:38.fantastic success, in 400 years, of Great Britain, because we have put
:39:39. > :39:43.aside our divisions and worked together. I am desperate for
:39:44. > :39:46.Scotland to say no to independence because we will be stronger as a
:39:47. > :39:51.country, but I passionately believe that they will be too. All of those
:39:52. > :39:56.great things that are Scottish and make such a contribution to us, they
:39:57. > :40:00.would be lost to us. This would be a disaster. But whatever happens,
:40:01. > :40:04.Humza, let's have a more civilised debate than the kind of argument you
:40:05. > :40:04.are using, rather than this argument of hate and division.
:40:05. > :40:21.APPLAUSE I have the greatest respect for Lord
:40:22. > :40:27.Ashdown and what he says. But it is not hatred and division.
:40:28. > :40:30.When you talked about the greatest economic union, I am just telling
:40:31. > :40:35.you the stark reality on the ground. We have 85,000 people, the
:40:36. > :40:40.majority of them in a disabled household, who have been hit by the
:40:41. > :40:44.bedroom tax. It is not Better Together for them. Immigrants who
:40:45. > :40:48.have been told to go home by government-sponsored posters, it is
:40:49. > :40:51.not Better Together for them, Lord Ashdown. Pensioners who have been
:40:52. > :40:56.saving for 50 years seeing their pensions decimated, it is not Better
:40:57. > :41:00.Together for them. My point is that all of those decisions are made by a
:41:01. > :41:03.coalition government that we did not elect. The problem with David
:41:04. > :41:08.Cameron coming to Scotland is that he has the audacity to say he is
:41:09. > :41:14.going to debate Nigel Farage, someone who does not have a single
:41:15. > :41:17.MP in Scotland. UKIP have never even saved the deposit. But he won't
:41:18. > :41:21.debate with Alex Salmond, the democratically elected head of the
:41:22. > :41:30.Scottish Government. That is audacious and absolutely
:41:31. > :41:33.unacceptable. I think the Prime minister is entitled to visit
:41:34. > :41:38.Scotland, because he is the Prime Minister. And I have to say, what
:41:39. > :41:43.Humza and Alex Salmond would love is to make this debate all about Alex
:41:44. > :41:48.Salmond versus David Cameron, because that is what they want to
:41:49. > :41:54.do. They want to have it as a debate about Scotland versus Westminster.
:41:55. > :41:59.But that isn't the issue here. The vote in September is for Scots to
:42:00. > :42:05.decide if they want to separate and leave the United Kingdom. That is
:42:06. > :42:12.the question on the table. As Paddy and Tim have said, I think we have,
:42:13. > :42:16.as a union, been very successful. And I am very proud that it was a
:42:17. > :42:22.Labour government that sort through the devolution for Scotland and
:42:23. > :42:25.Wales. I think we can be relaxed and confident about the choices that
:42:26. > :42:29.Scotland might make that might be different to here in England, or
:42:30. > :42:37.different to Wales or Northern Ireland for that matter. But at the
:42:38. > :42:40.same time not lose sight of the cultural and emotional links, but
:42:41. > :42:47.also the economic links that make us Better Together. And I don't think
:42:48. > :42:51.we should allow the SNP to let this debate be one about Alex Salmond
:42:52. > :42:55.versus David Cameron. That is not the issue. What they cannot have is
:42:56. > :43:00.a situation where they want to promote Scotland leaving the UK and
:43:01. > :43:03.think they will not have any consequences, because it will be
:43:04. > :43:06.very different. I hope that when Scots come to think about this and
:43:07. > :43:15.all the issues, I really hope that they stay with us. There are a
:43:16. > :43:20.number of people with hands up. I just want to say that I am pro
:43:21. > :43:25.union, but I agree with Humza that this issue is so important that the
:43:26. > :43:29.leaders should debate with Alex Salmond, all of the party leaders
:43:30. > :43:34.should get together and debate. It is crucial for the future of my
:43:35. > :43:44.daughter and the UK that she is going to grow up in.
:43:45. > :43:48.I agree with Paddy and Tim. The trouble is, the Better Together
:43:49. > :43:51.campaign is symptomatic of what is wrong with British politics, a
:43:52. > :43:57.constant focus on negative campaigning. Labour's election
:43:58. > :44:01.broadcast recently was a good example of that. There is a constant
:44:02. > :44:06.moaning and groaning about what other people are doing, instead of
:44:07. > :44:13.promoting the positive, which is what the Better Together campaign
:44:14. > :44:17.should do. A question for Humza. If you believe
:44:18. > :44:21.so passionately that Scotland should be independent white, if you get
:44:22. > :44:32.independence, do you want to join the European Union? -- why? Sure.
:44:33. > :44:34.Then the 28 countries of the European union wouldn't be
:44:35. > :44:38.independence. They are. The difference is, they had the choice.
:44:39. > :44:42.With the European Union that is a fantastic point we don't get our
:44:43. > :44:47.choice. Our voice heard at the top table in the European Union. I agree
:44:48. > :44:52.entirely with this lady. This is a debate between negative and
:44:53. > :44:55.positive. Look, Scotland is a wealthy country. We could be the
:44:56. > :45:00.14th wealthiest country in the world. Create a fairer and more
:45:01. > :45:06.social just welfare system. We Coe get rid of nuclear Trident missiles
:45:07. > :45:11.on our soil and invest that money in public services. It's a debate about
:45:12. > :45:18.unlocking Scotland's future. We will not separate and dwoors, take a
:45:19. > :45:24.chainsaw down to Carlisle and drift off into the North Sea. It's not
:45:25. > :45:27.about Celts and anthems. It's about creating the system to help the
:45:28. > :45:31.poorest, not at the expense of the poorest. I believe the Better
:45:32. > :45:35.Together campaign have been too negative. That is why they are
:45:36. > :45:39.haemorrhaging support. Not true. It's not Better Together for us who
:45:40. > :45:45.have to pay for prescriptions and have university fees that Scotland
:45:46. > :45:50.don't? You don't pay. You think Scotland should go its own way? If
:45:51. > :45:56.they do. Hopefully, it will be for the better for the rest of us. For
:45:57. > :46:01.England. The man there. I find it ironic that Tim and Paddy were
:46:02. > :46:05.talking about the greaty multi Kewellure experience. Tim talked
:46:06. > :46:10.about the need for greater immigration controls in his column.
:46:11. > :46:13.He is talking about the multi-cultural experience with
:46:14. > :46:17.Scottish people. Are we only to let people in if they come from the
:46:18. > :46:20.right country? APPLAUSE
:46:21. > :46:25.First of all, thank you for reading. I really do appreciate that!
:46:26. > :46:30.Although, obviously, I wish you hadn't now! No, what I'm talking
:46:31. > :46:35.about is the need for control when it comes from immigration from the
:46:36. > :46:43.European union. That is a specific debate. What we are discussing here
:46:44. > :46:49.is policy. The there is is a criticism of Tory party policy to
:46:50. > :46:53.vote for Labour not leaving the union. There are plenty of people
:46:54. > :46:57.who don't like the bedroom tax, they don't seek independence, they are
:46:58. > :47:01.seeking to change the policy. If you don't like the policy change it is a
:47:02. > :47:06.a country, let's not split off because we disagree with something
:47:07. > :47:10.London - The man there. I'm not one of David Cameron's favourites, or he
:47:11. > :47:14.is not one of my favourites! He is the UK Prime Minister, he can go
:47:15. > :47:19.where he likes. What I'm pretty sure, if Aberdeen and its oil
:47:20. > :47:23.industry was south of the border we wouldn't be having this discussion
:47:24. > :47:34.now. Tim, whenever you are on, can we all have some? O OK. Another
:47:35. > :47:37.question. Emily McFadden. The International Criminal Court has
:47:38. > :47:42.announced preliminary investigations into allegations of the UK's
:47:43. > :47:45.systematic abuse of Iraqis. To what extent should politicians be held
:47:46. > :47:52.accountable for the actions of our soldiers? The first part of this,
:47:53. > :47:55.the ICC announcing preliminary investigations is well-known. The
:47:56. > :48:00.question is, to what extent should politicians be held accountable for
:48:01. > :48:04.the actions of our soldiers. Paddy Ashdown? They should be. If
:48:05. > :48:08.politicians give the orders which soldiers then carry out, then they
:48:09. > :48:13.absolutely should be. The let me take the case of the ICC, if I can,
:48:14. > :48:18.then see if I can illustrate it with a small story. The I krvp, it's a
:48:19. > :48:28.prim examination, not an investigation. Secondly, there are
:48:29. > :48:32.robust systems in Britain for investigating it. It is
:48:33. > :48:35.investigating 43 cases of individual soldiers who acted beyond the law.
:48:36. > :48:41.The law set by politicians, of course. That is out of about
:48:42. > :48:45.140,000. The ICC is claiming to seek to investigate something which I
:48:46. > :48:49.think, first of all, the British Government rejects happened.
:48:50. > :48:53.Secondly, it ma it the case it is already investigating these. We are
:48:54. > :48:58.signatories to the ICC. We should observe and respect the ICC in its
:48:59. > :49:02.decisions. It's in our interests to do so. Not only legally, but also in
:49:03. > :49:08.terms of the interest of our country. Let me give you a story, if
:49:09. > :49:14.I can, briefly. In 1996 I was in the village in Kosovo when we were
:49:15. > :49:18.bombarded by the main battle units of the Serb army, tanks and heavy
:49:19. > :49:23.artillery. I was with Kosovo Albanians in the villages there, it
:49:24. > :49:30.was extremely unpleasant. On the following day I went to see
:49:31. > :49:35.Milosevic. I took the Geneva Convention. I said, what I witnessed
:49:36. > :49:39.yesterday was a clear breach where it touches on the rights of
:49:40. > :49:42.treatment of innocent civilians by an order force you could be brought
:49:43. > :49:46.to the Hague. The next time I saw him was when I gave evidence in the
:49:47. > :49:51.Hague for the Milosevic's trial for that day's work I witnessed. The
:49:52. > :49:55.fact that you have a Lou law that can bring a politician to justice
:49:56. > :50:03.for a breach of international law and it's oldest version, the gee
:50:04. > :50:09.Nina convention make it is a safer world -- Geneva. That same day
:50:10. > :50:13.before I saw Milosevic I spoke to the Serb artillery commanders who
:50:14. > :50:18.bombarded us in those villages the day before. What I discovered was
:50:19. > :50:24.that those artillery commanders were more frightened of being indicted by
:50:25. > :50:28.The Hague tribunal than they were of being bombed by NATO. I said to Tony
:50:29. > :50:33.Blair, have them indicted now. If you have a court like this. If you
:50:34. > :50:37.have a system of international law like this. It delivers justice to
:50:38. > :50:43.those who breached after the event. It controls the actions of tyrants
:50:44. > :50:48.and torturers and murders during the course of the war. That is why it it
:50:49. > :50:55.so important. Whatever our position in Britain we should adhere to the
:50:56. > :50:57.prescriptions of our court. It's in our legal duty to do so and in our
:50:58. > :51:10.interests to do so well. You, sir. I'd like to say I think it
:51:11. > :51:14.is rich and very sick that politicians continually avoid these
:51:15. > :51:18.sort of trials and blames when, you know, we have Tony Blair that
:51:19. > :51:23.started sending our young men to war. Young men that, by the way, are
:51:24. > :51:28.trained to be aggressive. Are trained to view the enemy in a
:51:29. > :51:33.certain way. Young men who volunteer their own lives for the good of our
:51:34. > :51:39.country. When these people make mistakes, as everyone does in all
:51:40. > :51:44.walks of life, these men are singled out and ridiculed in the media and
:51:45. > :51:50.quite often sent to military prison. They lose their pension, benefits
:51:51. > :51:55.and everything else. Meanwhile, the politicians just get away scot free.
:51:56. > :51:59.We seem to be chasing wars in countries and this debate hasn't
:52:00. > :52:03.been had before. There are is all sorts of oil and everything else.
:52:04. > :52:07.When hundreds of schoolgirls in Nigeria get kidnapped, where are our
:52:08. > :52:11.forces there? Surely we can go in and get them back. You mentioned
:52:12. > :52:14.Tony Blair. Caroline Flint you are a great supporter of Tony Blair's.
:52:15. > :52:19.What is your view of what he has just said? My view on the
:52:20. > :52:25.International Criminal Court is that we absolutely are right to be
:52:26. > :52:28.signatories to it. And, part of the task of the International Criminal
:52:29. > :52:32.Court is where there is evidence of systematic abuse, and where
:52:33. > :52:35.countries that are run by dictatorships do not have a legal
:52:36. > :52:39.system to bring individuals, whether they are politicians, army
:52:40. > :52:44.commanders, or whoever, to account, that is where the international
:52:45. > :52:50.court can step in. I think that is absolutely right. Clearly, if we had
:52:51. > :52:58.a situation in this country where we weren't following up on allegations
:52:59. > :53:04.of misuse, torture, rape, or whatever, then, quite rightly, the
:53:05. > :53:09.ICC would step in and take action. As Paddy said, we do have a system
:53:10. > :53:12.of legal proceedings in this country, thank goodness, that will
:53:13. > :53:16.follow these issues up and follow them through. That is absolutely
:53:17. > :53:21.right. Is it necessary for the I krvp C to carry out any kind of
:53:22. > :53:28.investigation? Is it because some people say rather shaming to find
:53:29. > :53:35.Britains name among a list of nation - Because - because Let Caroline
:53:36. > :53:39.answer the point. Because, it's perfectly right that if individuals,
:53:40. > :53:44.a group of lawyers, or whoever, decide that they want to approach
:53:45. > :53:48.the ICC, and ask them to look at a case, then that is quite right that
:53:49. > :53:52.should be done. As Paddy said, that is exactly what is happening. An
:53:53. > :53:56.investigation hasn't started. They are looking into the complaint that
:53:57. > :54:00.has been made. It may be that actually it won't get any further
:54:01. > :54:04.than this. Because we do have proceedings in this country that can
:54:05. > :54:08.hold politicians and others to accounts. There are cases under way
:54:09. > :54:12.at the moment. We need to be clear about this. I respect and will stand
:54:13. > :54:17.up for the right for people to approach this court, just in the
:54:18. > :54:21.same way as I would stand up for the right of people to approach the
:54:22. > :54:25.European Court on human rights. That does not mean we should feel ashamed
:54:26. > :54:28.at this stage. We should be proud of the fact that we have a legal system
:54:29. > :54:32.that can bring people to task in this country. , sir, second row from
:54:33. > :54:36.the back. We are quick enough to put our soldiers in the courts, not
:54:37. > :54:49.quick enough to put our politicians in the courts in the same way.
:54:50. > :54:52.APPLAUSE We are still waiting for the
:54:53. > :54:56.Chilcott report some many, many years after Afghanistan and Iraq.
:54:57. > :55:00.The one on the Falklands was completed in six months. Most of the
:55:01. > :55:04.information that we believe is still being held back by Tony Blair and
:55:05. > :55:08.Bush. It has been suggested that certain politicians, who shall not
:55:09. > :55:12.be named, have not helped with that inquiry and have indeed helped to
:55:13. > :55:19.delay it. Why can't they be named? I don't want to get in trouble! On the
:55:20. > :55:24.philosophical point about who takes the most blame, soldiers or
:55:25. > :55:29.politicians. I was disgusted by those pictures. Those soldiers
:55:30. > :55:33.should face disciplinary action for what happened. Those two men were
:55:34. > :55:36.under-fire. They had faced a terrible attack which is the
:55:37. > :55:41.explanation that has been given for why they did what they did. It is no
:55:42. > :55:45.excuse. They should still face discipline. Politicians created the
:55:46. > :55:50.context. The context is the Iraq war. Since that war began 435
:55:51. > :55:54.British service personnel have given their life. For what? For the
:55:55. > :55:57.creation of a constitution that cannot guarantee the security of
:55:58. > :56:01.women and their rights. For ople yum production which has reached the
:56:02. > :56:04.highest it has ever been. And now increasingly for negotiations with
:56:05. > :56:07.the Taliban, the very people we started the war in order to fight. I
:56:08. > :56:12.think it's sad that politicians can make such terrible decisions, which
:56:13. > :56:16.cost lives, and never ultimately face responsibility for it in the
:56:17. > :56:22.court of public opinion. OK. Thank you.
:56:23. > :56:28.APPLAUSE We have a a minute left of this
:56:29. > :56:32.programme. I won't take long. I agree with what the gentleman at the
:56:33. > :56:38.front has been saying, that Tony Blair in particular, the legal war
:56:39. > :56:42.in Iraq has managed to get away with it scot free. The problem in this
:56:43. > :56:45.country now, what we have done, a lot of good work very done
:56:46. > :56:49.internationally, has been undermined by the fact that war has become the
:56:50. > :56:54.first resort as opposed to the last resort. That is just completely the
:56:55. > :56:58.wrong way round. In recent years, you know, we have been in conflicts
:56:59. > :57:03.we shouldn't have been in. You can only take half the time. If you want
:57:04. > :57:11.the ICC not to indict you, don't go into conflicts we don't have to be
:57:12. > :57:16.in. Esther Mcvey. I think it was admiral Lord West who said this, I
:57:17. > :57:19.agree. If anybody was can captured around the world the soldiers you
:57:20. > :57:23.hoped would have captured would be the British soldiers, they are
:57:24. > :57:28.fairer than anybody else. Better than anybody else. I say they go to
:57:29. > :57:30.the highest standards in the world. So...
:57:31. > :57:34.APPLAUSE If anybody has done anything wrong,
:57:35. > :57:38.it is right for all of us to find that out and get it sorted out. It
:57:39. > :57:42.is not systematic. It does not happen all the time. It will be a
:57:43. > :57:47.rare exception because we do have the best people in our army. Here,
:57:48. > :57:50.here. APPLAUSE
:57:51. > :57:53.Thank you very much. The time is up for this edition of Question Time.
:57:54. > :57:57.Next Thursday is election night. We have the local and the European
:57:58. > :58:08.elections. Therefore, Question Time will come from the village of
:58:09. > :58:15.Radlett near the BBC's Elstree Studios in Hertfordshire. To that
:58:16. > :58:20.programme, Chris Grayling comes, Jeremy Brown and the television
:58:21. > :58:25.presenter Kirstie Allsopp. The week after that we will be in a
:58:26. > :58:33.spectacular place the newly restored Terminal 2 at Heathrow Airport. You
:58:34. > :58:37.don't have to take a flight as well. Nobody - there won't be people
:58:38. > :58:43.queueing in the background. We are at Terminal 2, a fabulous site. If
:58:44. > :58:47.you like to come to Elstree or Heathrow you can apply on our
:58:48. > :58:54.website. Address is on the screen: You can call us:
:58:55. > :59:02.if you are listening on Five Live the debate goes on on Question Time
:59:03. > :59:06.Extratime, not here, however. My thanks to my panel and all of you
:59:07. > :59:10.who came here to Coventry to take part. Until next Thursday, from
:59:11. > :59:35.Question Time, good night. Ladies and gentlemen...
:59:36. > :59:37.It's an honour to be here. Let's take a look...
:59:38. > :59:39...at the nominations. We're here to celebrate
:59:40. > :59:42.a great 12 months for television. The BAFTA...
:59:43. > :59:45...is awarded to...