:00:00. > :00:10.Tonight we are in the new Terminal Two at Heathrow Airport which opens
:00:11. > :00:26.next week. Welcome to Question Time. Good evening, to you at home, and to
:00:27. > :00:33.our audience here, to the panel, who don't know the questions unfill they
:00:34. > :00:37.hear them. David Willetts, Labour's Shadow Scottish Secretary, Margaret
:00:38. > :00:46.Curran, one of UKIP's newly-elected MEPs, Louise Bours, the journalist,
:00:47. > :00:52.television presenter, former editor of the Mirror, Piers Morgan and
:00:53. > :00:56.football's philosopher king, Joey Barton.
:00:57. > :01:12.Our first question from Kevin Robinson. Will UKIP cause another
:01:13. > :01:18.earth quake in the general election next year? Piers Morgan? It has been
:01:19. > :01:21.very interesting watching the rise of UKIP from America, where I have
:01:22. > :01:25.been the whole time it's been going on. Looking from the outside, my
:01:26. > :01:30.initial reaction was, like most people, a bunch of crackpots, this
:01:31. > :01:36.isn't going to last and slowly they gather momentum and I have tried to
:01:37. > :01:40.work out why this was happening. I think the answer is the British
:01:41. > :01:44.people are basically fed up with mediocrity. They look at the leaders
:01:45. > :01:49.of these three parties and they see three very similar sounding,
:01:50. > :01:54.similar-looking, white middle-class, middle-aged, quite posh gentlemen
:01:55. > :02:02.who seem to have no relation to the real world. You have Mr Boring, Mr
:02:03. > :02:06.Weird, Mr Useless and along comes Nigel Farage, who, for all his
:02:07. > :02:10.faults - and he's got faults - he seems like a regular guy. He is a
:02:11. > :02:14.guy who puts a pint on his head and you can kind of understand why a lot
:02:15. > :02:17.of people in this country - particularly working-class people -
:02:18. > :02:22.look at him and think he is making sense. He's been very clever, very
:02:23. > :02:27.smart as a politician. Two issues. Focus on two things. Europe and
:02:28. > :02:30.immigration. Two issues which most people have concerns about and they
:02:31. > :02:35.are right to have concerns about them. So I think that the rise of
:02:36. > :02:38.UKIP has been a very good thing for the democratic process in this
:02:39. > :02:43.country. I think it's shaken up Westminster. It's shaken up the main
:02:44. > :02:48.parties. But there comes a point where you have to say, if they are a
:02:49. > :02:51.protest vote, I'm in favour. The moment you start to take them
:02:52. > :02:54.seriously as a party that can govern, I think you have got massive
:02:55. > :02:58.problems. I tried to find out what else UKIP stood for other than get
:02:59. > :03:04.out of Europe and send all the foreigners home that we don't like.
:03:05. > :03:10.And I just did a quick check on Google and it was... Not a great
:03:11. > :03:13.information source. End gay marriage, ignore climate change and
:03:14. > :03:19.bring backhand guns. I thought, are we serious? Is this a serious party?
:03:20. > :03:23.So the question is can there be another UKIP earthquake in a real
:03:24. > :03:26.general election? A lot will depend on the three parties and how they
:03:27. > :03:30.respond to this threat, but UKIP - and I will be interested to hear
:03:31. > :03:35.what the lady to my left has to say - has to take itself more seriously
:03:36. > :03:39.and has to present policies coming on the momentum they built up which
:03:40. > :03:43.can resonate a lot more than just Europe and immigration. Briefly, if
:03:44. > :03:48.it does that, can it cause another earthquake? It's indisputable they
:03:49. > :03:53.have caused an earthquake. That is a good thing. They have shaken things
:03:54. > :03:56.up. Can they do it again? I don't know. Do they really want to stand
:03:57. > :03:59.for more than Europe and immigration? I don't believe the
:04:00. > :04:02.next election will be fought on that. It will be fought on the
:04:03. > :04:08.economy. Do they want to expand to that? It is an interesting situation
:04:09. > :04:12.we are in. I congratulate Nigel Farage for coming this far. I'm
:04:13. > :04:16.worried by what lies underneath UKIP and whether actually it sustains
:04:17. > :04:26.itself. We will come to UKIP in a moment. Margaret Curran? I think it
:04:27. > :04:31.can be explained by the deep resentment by what's going on in
:04:32. > :04:35.politics. They saw the economic crisis, they saw it caused by
:04:36. > :04:39.bankers, but they see bankers' bonuses going, they see the energy
:04:40. > :04:43.companies who keep saying that prices, their prices have got to go
:04:44. > :04:47.up and our prices have got to go up. But their profits go on
:04:48. > :04:53.unchallenged. I think people are deeply resentful of that and feel
:04:54. > :04:59.something has to be done. Following on from MPs' expenses and such like,
:05:00. > :05:01.people have a deep complaint about the political system and feel
:05:02. > :05:05.politicians are not talking enough about their lives and the things
:05:06. > :05:14.that matter to them. It is your fault that UKIP rose? Well, partly
:05:15. > :05:17.it's the whole political class. I do feel Labour is trying to understand
:05:18. > :05:21.and talk about the issues that affect people in this country, such
:05:22. > :05:25.as the energy crisis and the cost of living. Ed Miliband said that this
:05:26. > :05:31.has to be about changing the way that we do politics. OK. It hasn't
:05:32. > :05:37.happened yet because it didn't happen in the European elections.
:05:38. > :05:41.The question is, is there going to be another UKIP earthquake in under
:05:42. > :05:45.a year from now? Who knows. We are asking your view. You are a
:05:46. > :05:52.professional politician, you should know. It depends on the reasons why
:05:53. > :05:56.people voted UKIP. UKIP are deeply wrong. We need to take on some of
:05:57. > :05:59.the arguments of UKIP and that now needs to happen and we need to be
:06:00. > :06:05.assertive and explain why UKIP are wrong. It is about understanding and
:06:06. > :06:08.addressing the fundamental issues in people's lives and I think Labour
:06:09. > :06:11.does have a programme for that and I am confident that we can answer
:06:12. > :06:18.people's needs. We do need to make sure that we take on UKIP and expose
:06:19. > :06:21.some of them... What would be the one wrong thing you would take on?
:06:22. > :06:29.You say we have to expose where they are wrong. If you took one thing
:06:30. > :06:33.that you could take to the election? This presentation - you can solve
:06:34. > :06:37.all problems by those issues - that is the thing we need to take on. We
:06:38. > :06:40.need to live in a much more tolerant society. We need to look at what we
:06:41. > :06:48.have got in common with each other. That is how you address the deep
:06:49. > :06:51.malaise. You don't do it by setting people apart against each other. OK.
:06:52. > :07:04.We've got a lot of hands up. I would like to hear from Louise Bours.
:07:05. > :07:08.Thank you. Thank you to my two panelists for completely insulting
:07:09. > :07:14.and denigrating the 5.5 million people who did vote for UKIP last
:07:15. > :07:27.week. I did not so thing. Yes, you did. The fact is 5.5 million people
:07:28. > :07:30.did vote for UKIP. Obviously, what the establishment cannot understand
:07:31. > :07:36.in any way is the disconnect that the normal people of this country
:07:37. > :07:40.feel with the establishment. There is a total disconnect. They look at
:07:41. > :07:43.Westminster, they look at the green leather and they see nobody at all
:07:44. > :07:48.that represents them. Nobody who looks like them. Nobody who talks
:07:49. > :07:53.like them. And so they have looked to something else. And that is why
:07:54. > :08:00.UKIP won last Thursday. The fact is, people want to see people they
:08:01. > :08:03.recognise. We want to recognise what they feel. We want to know they are
:08:04. > :08:07.going through the things we go through on a regular basis. That is
:08:08. > :08:12.what the political class is not doing in this country. In fact, the
:08:13. > :08:15.political class and the establishment are - we are the
:08:16. > :08:22.symptom of how they have treated the people of this country. The
:08:23. > :08:25.misinformation like Piers has given out about banning gay marriage -
:08:26. > :08:30.what utter nonsense. Wait a minute. You have had your say. Nigel Farage
:08:31. > :08:35.said he wanted to legalise handguns. And the media in this country is
:08:36. > :08:38.incredible. What I say to you, ladies and gentlemen, over the
:08:39. > :08:42.summer, we will be putting together a domestic manifesto. This election
:08:43. > :08:46.has been fought on two things. It's a European election. So, of course,
:08:47. > :08:50.it's been fought on Europe. Of course it has. It's a European
:08:51. > :08:53.election. Over the summer, we will have a full manifesto of domestic
:08:54. > :08:58.policies that all of you will be able to scrutinise and so you
:08:59. > :09:01.should. That is right. Is it not true that Nigel Farage said he
:09:02. > :09:05.wanted to legalise handguns? That is not true. What he was talking about
:09:06. > :09:11.was the fact that it was a disgrace that the Olympic gun team had to go
:09:12. > :09:15.outside of this country to train and he said that was ludicrous. You are
:09:16. > :09:21.telling me that is not ludicrous? That wasn't what he said. It is what
:09:22. > :09:29.he said. It isn't. Let's leave guns. The man up there at the top left? In
:09:30. > :09:32.response to Piers' first comment that all the party leaders are
:09:33. > :09:35.similar. Is this not in response to our voting system because we have
:09:36. > :09:43.got to have someone who compromises between the 51% and the 49% whilst
:09:44. > :09:46.party leaders such as Farage, they are a leader for about 30%. I
:09:47. > :09:56.personally would look at moving abroad if Nigel Farage was our
:09:57. > :10:01.leader next year. You, over there? In my personal opinion, UKIP support
:10:02. > :10:04.will fall in the general election when people start to focus on issues
:10:05. > :10:07.which affect them. I live in Hammersmith and there's been a
:10:08. > :10:11.stunning victory there from Labour in the council election because they
:10:12. > :10:15.focussed on the local NHS. I think that when people read UKIP's last
:10:16. > :10:20.manifesto, where they wanted to privatise large parts of the NHS, as
:10:21. > :10:27.a doctor, I think the British public are going to reject that. They have
:10:28. > :10:30.done. That is misinformation. Again, this is misinformation that's
:10:31. > :10:35.perpetuated by the establishment. We have never said we want to privatise
:10:36. > :10:39.the NHS. What we have said is we would like to streamline the NHS,
:10:40. > :10:44.there's 48% of people who work for the NHS who aren't clinically
:10:45. > :10:48.trained. Why aren't those resources targeted at doctors and nurses? We
:10:49. > :10:54.don't need to talk about... The manifesto of 2010 is drivel,
:10:55. > :10:59.according to Nigel Farage. He said, "I didn't read it, it was drivel,
:11:00. > :11:04.486 pages of drivel." At least he is honest! It is the new manifesto we
:11:05. > :11:07.should be concentrating on. Joey Barton? The thing that keeps getting
:11:08. > :11:12.me about it is everyone is saying UKIP have done so well. From what
:11:13. > :11:19.little I know about it, I don't think they have done that well. Only
:11:20. > :11:23.34% of the people voted... Winning the election is not doing well? You
:11:24. > :11:31.have no MPs. You can't have done that well! We won a national
:11:32. > :11:35.election, Joey. Hang on. Do you think - I listened when you spoke -
:11:36. > :11:41.do you think that 34% of those eligible to vote cared enough about
:11:42. > :11:45.what they were voting for to make a drastic change? For me, they didn't.
:11:46. > :11:50.The others didn't mobilise their vote. We did. We won the election.
:11:51. > :11:54.You won some seats in Europe in the European Parliament that nobody
:11:55. > :12:00.really cares about. Well, they should care about it. They should
:12:01. > :12:05.care about it. If you make the same traction in a general election,
:12:06. > :12:08.people will sit up and take notice. The mainstream political parties are
:12:09. > :12:13.sitting up and taking notice. All you represent to me is the best of a
:12:14. > :12:20.bad bunch. So if I'm somewhere and there was four really ugly girls,
:12:21. > :12:29.I'm thinking she's not... Oh dear. That is all you are to us. I have to
:12:30. > :12:34.say the ignorance here - he fulfils the mission that footballers' brains
:12:35. > :12:39.are in their feet. He has proved that to me tonight. What an
:12:40. > :12:44.offensive thing to say. Maybe you do. You have to frame your argument
:12:45. > :12:47.a little... UKIP have not made the progress that everyone is
:12:48. > :12:54.professing... Winning the national election... 34% of those eligible to
:12:55. > :12:59.vote voted. They voted for UKIP. Nobody cares. It was a protest vote.
:13:00. > :13:03.That's all it was. I call it democracy. The Lib Dems are really
:13:04. > :13:07.bad at the minute, as everyone knows. I have got more chance of
:13:08. > :13:10.winning a general election than the Lib Dems, or Nick Clegg! And the
:13:11. > :13:16.other parties have failed to perform. UKIP come in, I will give
:13:17. > :13:22.you credit for that. That is what democracy is. Whilst I agree with
:13:23. > :13:28.the general premise of what Joey is saying, the figures are 9% of all
:13:29. > :13:33.eligible voters so it's less than what you are saying. It even
:13:34. > :13:38.highlights the fact that they don't have that much support in those
:13:39. > :13:41.elections. The 27% support of those who voted comes out at 9% of
:13:42. > :13:47.everybody who could have voted? Exactly. Is that significant? David
:13:48. > :13:50.Willetts? It is five million people voting in the democracy, that is
:13:51. > :13:53.significant. That is messages for all of the political parties about
:13:54. > :13:55.the kind of anxieties people have. They have anxieties about Europe
:13:56. > :13:58.heading in the wrong direction. They have anxieties about Europe
:13:59. > :14:02.heading in the wrong They have anxieties about migration. I think
:14:03. > :14:06.there's a deeper anxiety. They have an anxiety that our kids are not
:14:07. > :14:10.going to have the same quality of life that we have enjoyed and they
:14:11. > :14:14.expect politicians to do something to ensure our kids do have better
:14:15. > :14:19.lives than the previous generation. So I think that is the challenge for
:14:20. > :14:24.us. I don't think UKIP are going to be able to rise to that challenge.
:14:25. > :14:29.The clue was in what Nigel Farage said on election day. He said a vote
:14:30. > :14:32.for UKIP was a free hit. He meant it was an opportunity to get a message
:14:33. > :14:34.to the Government without any real consequences. Next year, people will
:14:35. > :14:38.be choosing a Government. They will be choosing who are the grown-ups
:14:39. > :14:42.who will do the long-term things that will ensure Britain keeps on
:14:43. > :14:45.growing, that our kids have a decent education, they have an opportunity
:14:46. > :14:48.to get on the housing ladder. On those issues, it will be a different
:14:49. > :14:52.election than the one we have just had. It is one I look forward to
:14:53. > :15:02.when people are choosing the Government of this country.
:15:03. > :15:07.that, having clearly touched a nerve in the European election? Because,
:15:08. > :15:13.if you look at their - they are touching a chord, an anxiety I
:15:14. > :15:16.understand. As a democrat, the fact that five million people vote is
:15:17. > :15:21.very significant. When you tilely look at what the policies are, they
:15:22. > :15:25.are completely pass Sewell. It's not the case this nation's problems are
:15:26. > :15:32.solved simply by leaving Europe. It's actually a kind of diversion
:15:33. > :15:36.tactic. We have real challenges of investing more in infrastructure and
:15:37. > :15:40.real challenges in ensuring people get high quality healthcare. Leaving
:15:41. > :15:44.Europe is not relevant for any of that. People want to ensure Europe
:15:45. > :15:47.doesn't head in the wrong direction. I think this Prime Minister has been
:15:48. > :15:51.very effective in that. We have vetoed a treaty, delivered the first
:15:52. > :15:55.cut in the European budget. They want governments that do serious
:15:56. > :15:59.things. What Nigel Farage was offering was a kind of escape from
:16:00. > :16:04.those real tasks that real governments have to give on with.
:16:05. > :16:09.Why are you offering an a referendum if it's an irrelevant issue? There
:16:10. > :16:14.are other things like health and education I doubt that anybody who
:16:15. > :16:19.voted UKIP last Thursday knew what UKIP would do, I'm not totally sure
:16:20. > :16:23.the UKIP MEPs agree on what they would do on health or It's a
:16:24. > :16:29.education. European Why are election. You offering a referendum?
:16:30. > :16:30.Why are you making a big deal about the referendum if you don't think
:16:31. > :16:35.it's the potential to solving Europe's problems? Europe is heading
:16:36. > :16:39.in the wrong direction. Too many powers are being taking in Brussels.
:16:40. > :16:42.Part of the frustration is that Europe are doing things that are
:16:43. > :16:46.better decided by national governments. Who will effectively
:16:47. > :16:49.negotiate and who will give you a choice in a referendum and the
:16:50. > :16:53.outcome of that negotiations? There is only one party that can credibly
:16:54. > :16:56.offer that at the next election, that is is the Conservatives. The
:16:57. > :17:01.person in the fourth row. The man there. Is it not very worrying that
:17:02. > :17:08.so many UKIP associates and MEPs and people who represent UKIP have come
:17:09. > :17:14.out as racist or making homophobic - You name me one MEP who has come out
:17:15. > :17:21.as being racist? The gay weather fiasco? He is a Conservative
:17:22. > :17:24.councillor. When he was a Conservative councillor spouting
:17:25. > :17:30.that nonsense nobody heard it. A couple of days ago someone
:17:31. > :17:35.associated with UKIP say with Downs children should have forced abortion
:17:36. > :17:44.- I have not read that. It was in the papers. What about Dave Small.
:17:45. > :17:53.Is he the Worcester councillor? He came out with some repellent and
:17:54. > :17:57.hideous comments. He was suspended and expelled within three days am we
:17:58. > :18:02.take notice of these things. We know that some of our procedures have
:18:03. > :18:06.been flawed. We are the first ones to admit that, hold our hands up.
:18:07. > :18:10.When the people speak out we throw them out. What about your leader who
:18:11. > :18:17.goes on radio who says he doesn't want to live next to Romanians. He
:18:18. > :18:21.didn't say that. You are twisting and spinning it like a media man. He
:18:22. > :18:29.did not say that at all. He did not say that at all. Exactly what he
:18:30. > :18:34.said. All right. You, sir. I voted UKIP for the first time. Why?
:18:35. > :18:38.Because what Louise was saying actually. Because, I think, for the
:18:39. > :18:42.last few years, all I've heard is talk, talk, talk, UKIP at last are
:18:43. > :18:46.talking on behalf of the British people. They are certainly talking
:18:47. > :18:52.to me. As long as the major parties keep on making these noises that
:18:53. > :18:57.they are listening to us, I'm going to - well, as I say, until they
:18:58. > :19:05.actually deliver, I want to vote UKIP at least they give us a voice
:19:06. > :19:10.and. How can I put this? It's... Ah... It just feels as though I'm
:19:11. > :19:14.being talked to like a naughty schoolboy. That will my vote is a
:19:15. > :19:18.protest vote and next year I will be a good boy and come back into the
:19:19. > :19:25.fold and vote Conservative. They don't understand it. By saying it it
:19:26. > :19:30.is a protest vote - A free hit. What does that mean? There was a poll
:19:31. > :19:34.conducted by ITV of people who voted UKIP at this election. 2% of those
:19:35. > :19:39.people said they would continue to vote UKIP in 2015. We know -
:19:40. > :19:44.honestly, I would not insult your intelligence. We know we have a long
:19:45. > :19:49.way to go. We know we are flawed. As a political party we are a baby. We
:19:50. > :19:53.have been in existence for 21 years our procedures and things - people
:19:54. > :19:57.get through the net. We are working really, really hard. When those kind
:19:58. > :20:02.of things, sir, come up that you mentioned before we kick them out. I
:20:03. > :20:06.also think those things are repellent. Think of where we have
:20:07. > :20:09.been. Where we are now. I tell you what, when our domestic manifesto is
:20:10. > :20:16.launched in September you can skriet nigh it and ask questions and make
:20:17. > :20:21.your own mind up in 2015. You, sir. As someone who values diversity and
:20:22. > :20:25.supports gay marriage and refuses tovillify people based on their
:20:26. > :20:36.nationality, religion or race, UKIP do not and will never speak for me.
:20:37. > :20:41.APPLAUSE The lady over here on the right.
:20:42. > :20:45.Yes. Yes. I thoroughly endorse what I've just heard. What I want to say,
:20:46. > :20:49.what I feel might answer this question about a landslide and what
:20:50. > :20:53.a party could do next year to prevent UKIP gaining any more
:20:54. > :21:01.momentum, is for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party to take a moral stand.
:21:02. > :21:08.Don't appease UKIP. Don't say that UKIP is not racist. UKIP does have,
:21:09. > :21:16.I would say - You think five million people are racist in this country? I
:21:17. > :21:21.would like to see this country... You think Labour hasn't taken UKIP
:21:22. > :21:24.on properly? I think Ed Miliband should speak out against it. We are
:21:25. > :21:29.a country who can take a moral stand. We are enriched by
:21:30. > :21:32.immigration. All of us here are enriched by immigration. I would
:21:33. > :21:40.like to see that stressed and emphasised. OK. Hold on a second.
:21:41. > :21:46.Anybody else here who is a UKIP supporter or voted UKIP, who I would
:21:47. > :21:52.like to hear from. A whole row there! Did you come together? No.
:21:53. > :21:55.The question I think is that the European election that we've just
:21:56. > :22:01.had is on proportional representation. We had effectively
:22:02. > :22:06.virtually 30% of the voting public voted for UKIP for particular
:22:07. > :22:10.reasons in a European election. We now have an ordinary by-election
:22:11. > :22:14.coming up in Newark, which is my hometown, and it will be very
:22:15. > :22:20.interesting to see whether that momentum can carry on into a
:22:21. > :22:26.conventional election on a first-past-the-post system. I think
:22:27. > :22:35.that's the real growing up of UKIP to extend its support, not only to
:22:36. > :22:41.cover other issues, but to enable its MPs to, candidates, to become
:22:42. > :22:45.successful. When, at the moment, the UKIP support is pretty well evenly
:22:46. > :22:51.spread throughout the country and including Wales and including
:22:52. > :22:57.Scotland. Of but it's not peaking in any particular place. There are
:22:58. > :23:07.hotspots. It will be interesting to see whether Newark is a hotspot. The
:23:08. > :23:10.younger are disill Lewesed. They have decided not to vote. They can't
:23:11. > :23:16.be bothered. They haven't voted for UKIP. Everyone who votes for UKIP
:23:17. > :23:23.are the older voter. Obviously, the fact that 34% turned out to the poll
:23:24. > :23:28.say there is is a young of disill Lewesed voters like myself who could
:23:29. > :23:32.never imagine voting for UKIP. Only reason you would vote for UKIP, in
:23:33. > :23:36.my opinion, is that you were really disill Lewesed with the mainstream
:23:37. > :23:40.parties. Two or three of you had your hands up as UKIP supporters.
:23:41. > :23:45.Yes, the gentleman with his hand up there. I don't - I'm a Labour
:23:46. > :23:51.supporter, but I voted for UKIP at the last election. I think the
:23:52. > :23:56.question is - why did the five million people vote for UKIP? Why
:23:57. > :24:03.did you as a Labour supporter? Because, I mean, this is real-life.
:24:04. > :24:08.I mean, what UKIP are talking about, it is happening on the street. It's
:24:09. > :24:14.not about racism. It's about the economy, accepting immigrants more
:24:15. > :24:18.than what they can afford. When people go on - to look for a job,
:24:19. > :24:23.and they can't find it, people get angry. It's real. People get
:24:24. > :24:27.frustrated because they can't get housing or their kids can't get to
:24:28. > :24:32.the next school. It's real-life. When - the answers like from David,
:24:33. > :24:37.saying that, OK, it's a protest. We know we will sort it out. You are
:24:38. > :24:42.forgetting, you are the ones who put us in that situation in the first
:24:43. > :24:48.place. You know. Vote for UKIP, it's a real vote. If you don't do
:24:49. > :24:52.something about it, I will vote for UKIP again. You say, we have to do
:24:53. > :24:54.something about it. I would say the coalition, in the four years we have
:24:55. > :24:58.been in Government, have been sorting out a mess. We have have
:24:59. > :25:04.been doing things about a lot of people's worries. If you want an
:25:05. > :25:06.effective voice in Europe, it stops keeping taking powers from us. That
:25:07. > :25:10.is what David Cameron has been delivering. I think at the next
:25:11. > :25:15.election - People don't believe that, do they? The reason UKIP is
:25:16. > :25:18.attracting support in significant numbers is precisely because they
:25:19. > :25:22.don't think David Cameron has been batting for this country in Europe.
:25:23. > :25:26.I think that is a perfectly valid charge to We will make. Come to that
:25:27. > :25:31.in a moment. Take the decisions we took on the economy. We took tough
:25:32. > :25:34.decisions in the economy in 2010 - Immigration is what he was talking
:25:35. > :25:37.about. He was talking about immigration, not the economy. We
:25:38. > :25:40.have reduced the total amount of migration. We have tightened the
:25:41. > :25:44.regime for migrants coming from outside Europe. We have tightened
:25:45. > :25:47.the rules on - you mentioned housing, sir, we tightened the rules
:25:48. > :25:52.on housing so that people who have been living in an area for a time do
:25:53. > :25:56.have priority about - over people who arrived. We understand these are
:25:57. > :26:00.the type of legitimate anxieties that people have. We are tackling
:26:01. > :26:05.them. Do you want to come back on that? The Tories policy on
:26:06. > :26:09.immigration doesn't work. Exactly. No because they cannot affect what
:26:10. > :26:16.is happening on Europe owe immigration. They are just attacking
:26:17. > :26:23.students and people outside the EU. You can tighten the rules. You are
:26:24. > :26:25.absolutely right. I have been polite. In this panel you have to
:26:26. > :26:27.talk over people. It's polite. In this panel you have to
:26:28. > :26:31.talk over people. the only way I will get to speak. The lady here
:26:32. > :26:34.made an important and direct point about Labour. I want to take the
:26:35. > :26:38.opportunity to address this. I think it's current in the debate. What Ed
:26:39. > :26:42.Miliband and Labour is saying is clear, you have to make a
:26:43. > :26:45.distinction between UKIP as a party and the things they say and do. You
:26:46. > :26:49.can't avoid responsibility in the way that you're trying to do tonight
:26:50. > :26:53.to dodge the bullets, in terms of some of the arguments, you are being
:26:54. > :26:56.irresponsible and not facing up to some of the arguments about some of
:26:57. > :27:01.the things that UKIP have said and do stand for and what they try and
:27:02. > :27:04.presents as politics. There is a distinction between that and why
:27:05. > :27:07.people voted for them. I don't absolutely write off those five
:27:08. > :27:12.million people that voted for UKIP. I will make, Labour will be out to
:27:13. > :27:16.win your votes back. Those of you that are remotely sympathetic to our
:27:17. > :27:20.view of the world. We would make a big distinction. For example, if
:27:21. > :27:24.there is a problem about housing, we know housing and access to housing
:27:25. > :27:28.caused tensions and difficulties in communitiesment we would say - don't
:27:29. > :27:32.blame the people applying for the houses. We need to tackle the supply
:27:33. > :27:36.of housing. I'm the daughter of an immigrant myself. I believe
:27:37. > :27:39.immigrants have made an he enormous and important contribution to this
:27:40. > :27:44.country. We have to say that loudly and clearly. I respect anybody that
:27:45. > :27:49.comes here with enterprise and creativity and puts in hard graph.
:27:50. > :27:53.We need to respond to that. We need to have a managed, fair and
:27:54. > :27:58.effective system of immigration. We need to have an honest debate about
:27:59. > :28:01.that. You can do that in a progressive way and the Labour way
:28:02. > :28:05.not the way the Tories have done it. We need to answer people's deep
:28:06. > :28:11.concerns about politics. On their issues we can provide answers to
:28:12. > :28:21.them. It is not stigmatising people and not getting into the (inaudible)
:28:22. > :28:24.of politics. You, sir. I'm young. I did vote UKIP. I'm passionately
:28:25. > :28:29.interested in politics. You voted UKIP? Yes. The reason I voted for
:28:30. > :28:33.UKIP wasn't for immigration. I believe the UK should be a sovereign
:28:34. > :28:38.nation which shouldn't have to be part of the European United States
:28:39. > :28:42.project. I don't feel personally European. If you look at everyone in
:28:43. > :28:46.the European Commission they talk about a European dream and European
:28:47. > :28:51.state and European armed forces. I don't want to be part of that. Joey
:28:52. > :28:54.Barton says young people don't vote. I think the reason people don't vote
:28:55. > :29:00.isn't because they are disill Lewesed they haven't been educated
:29:01. > :29:05.in politics. I'm one of only a very few number of people in my school
:29:06. > :29:08.who do politics. A lot of people did vote at the last general election
:29:09. > :29:12.and because of what Lib Dems were promising. The reason they don't
:29:13. > :29:16.vote is because they haven't been informed about politics at Do you
:29:17. > :29:22.all. Think there will be an earthquake in the general election?
:29:23. > :29:28.No, I don't. The first-past-the-post system you have absolutely no hope.
:29:29. > :29:30.Would you vote UKIP again in 11 months' time. I will try to vote to
:29:31. > :29:42.get Vince Cable out of Twickenham. can't remember what they decided
:29:43. > :29:50.about that. Let's go on to another question. You can, of course, join
:29:51. > :29:57.in this debate, as you well know, text, Twitter - #bbcqt, you can
:29:58. > :30:01.follow us @bbcquestiontime or you can go to the website -
:30:02. > :30:06.www.bbc.co.uk/questiontime. One day, we hope to get Twitter on to the red
:30:07. > :30:14.button. We will catch up. It will be great. You are scared of it. The
:30:15. > :30:19.comments people make. A question from Cliff Barrowman. Should full
:30:20. > :30:22.details of discussions between George Bush and Tony Blair in
:30:23. > :30:30.respect of the Iraq War be made public? This is the row that's been
:30:31. > :30:35.going on over the Chilcot report and the decision that was announced
:30:36. > :30:41.today in a letter that they have now reached an agreement on what can and
:30:42. > :30:47.can't be published. Who would like to start on this? Piers Morgan, you
:30:48. > :30:51.start on this. When I was editor of the Daily Mirror, we fought long and
:30:52. > :30:53.hard a campaign against the Iraq War. Nothing that has happened since
:30:54. > :30:56.has persuaded me War. Nothing that has happened since
:30:57. > :31:00.has persuaded that it was not a valid campaign. I had lots of
:31:01. > :31:05.dealings with Tony Blair at the time at Downing Street and was into his
:31:06. > :31:09.mind a little bit. I always believed - my brother was fighting for the
:31:10. > :31:13.British Army in Basra, so I had a vested interest on all sides of
:31:14. > :31:16.this. I always believed that basically Tony Blair had said to
:31:17. > :31:21.George Bush, "I'm in whatever happens." And I believe when he
:31:22. > :31:25.didn't get the second UN Resolution that he had already told George Bush
:31:26. > :31:30.and the Americans, "We are going in." That, to me, turned our
:31:31. > :31:35.involvement in the Iraq War into an illegal involvement in the Iraq War.
:31:36. > :31:39.And I think that what you are seeing now in terms of selective details of
:31:40. > :31:43.the conversations between the British Prime Minister and the
:31:44. > :31:48.American President is absolutely outrageous that we are not going to
:31:49. > :31:54.get all the details which can determine once and for all whether
:31:55. > :31:56.that agreement was made without authorisation from the British
:31:57. > :32:00.Parliament or not. There is only one we are not getting them - it's a bad
:32:01. > :32:04.reason - it is because the details that are contained in those
:32:05. > :32:09.conversations would be deeply embarrassing to Tony Blair, not so
:32:10. > :32:12.embarrassing to the Americans. To the British Prime Minister, Tony
:32:13. > :32:16.Blair, at the time, who led us into that war, a war that I believe was
:32:17. > :32:20.illegal, I think this is fundamentally important and we, as
:32:21. > :32:29.the British public, have a right to see the details of those
:32:30. > :32:35.conversations. He said last week it is not me who is holding it up, the
:32:36. > :32:37.sooner it's published the better. Somebody is holding it up. Tony
:32:38. > :32:41.Blair can say that with the safety of knowledge, I don't know - I don't
:32:42. > :32:44.think it is Tony Blair personally - maybe he has knowledge that we don't
:32:45. > :32:47.about what has been going on behind-the-scenes. I don't think
:32:48. > :32:51.there is anyone in this room, or anyone watching at home, who when
:32:52. > :32:54.they heard today that we are not going to get the details of those
:32:55. > :32:58.conversations didn't think this stinks. Yeah. I can't understand
:32:59. > :33:04.what the point of the Chilcot Inquiry is if we are not going to
:33:05. > :33:08.get the full truth. We have been involved in the Hillsborough sort of
:33:09. > :33:12.campaign that was going on a while back and is still ongoing. It smells
:33:13. > :33:18.a little bit of the same about what was going on. You can't give
:33:19. > :33:23.information but say we are are only going to give select information. It
:33:24. > :33:27.has to be the whole truth. I have read on the way over that it is over
:33:28. > :33:31.100 pages of direct conversations between Blair and Bush in the
:33:32. > :33:38.lead-up to us going into the war. I mean, how can we - what is the point
:33:39. > :33:45.of the inquiry if they don't have this information? I agree with Piers
:33:46. > :33:51.and Joey. You will be glad to know! We have a fundamental right as
:33:52. > :33:57.British people to know what is in those papers. Our men and women in
:33:58. > :34:03.the armed forces went out and fought and died because of those decisions.
:34:04. > :34:07.I think it highlights the disconnect between the politicians and the
:34:08. > :34:12.public. They forget that they work for us, actually. We have elected
:34:13. > :34:16.them into office and they are public servants, they are there on our
:34:17. > :34:22.behalf. We have a fundamental right to know why we were taken into what
:34:23. > :34:28.I believe was an illegal war. Even - I think it is quite insulting to say
:34:29. > :34:37.that we will only get the gist, we will only get excerpts... Margaret
:34:38. > :34:42.Curran, a Labour supporter and supporter of Tony Blair, why do you
:34:43. > :34:46.think it's not all being published? Why has Sir John Chilcot accepted
:34:47. > :34:50.that it won't all be published? I have not seen all the details of
:34:51. > :34:54.what has been said today. I saw the word "gist" being used and it won't
:34:55. > :34:58.be everything. That's my understanding of what's happened. I
:34:59. > :35:03.think the principle of disclosure is important and I think the principle
:35:04. > :35:08.- and that is what Chilcot is trying to do for the British people - and
:35:09. > :35:12.some of the previous inquiries have tried to do that. People are aware
:35:13. > :35:17.of what happened in Iraq and why we went to war and why leaderships and
:35:18. > :35:22.governments behaved the way they did. I assume that part of the
:35:23. > :35:28.explanation for not full disclosure is about secrecy and protocols of
:35:29. > :35:32.Government and secret shared security and that is part of the
:35:33. > :35:35.explanation. I would have to say that Tony Blair has been through
:35:36. > :35:39.full investigations through Chilcot and through some of the other
:35:40. > :35:43.inquiries. It is obviously still a deeply important issue to Britain
:35:44. > :35:48.and obviously of course to the Armed Services who served so significantly
:35:49. > :35:53.for us. I do understand the depth of feeling there is still about Iraq. I
:35:54. > :35:56.think we would need to look and see the security arguments as to why
:35:57. > :36:00.there is not full disclosure. It doesn't seem to be just security.
:36:01. > :36:04.There is a line in it about not attempting to explain George Bush's
:36:05. > :36:08.position, which is very curious. That is because the Americans have
:36:09. > :36:11.to explain their own position. What about explaining Tony Blair's
:36:12. > :36:17.position? I think this is what has to be explained. If they don't
:36:18. > :36:20.quote, if you don't quote from telephone conversations, you just
:36:21. > :36:23.give the gist of a telephone conversation, you know what that
:36:24. > :36:26.means, that is what people do in ordinary life, they give a gist of
:36:27. > :36:33.something and you don't get a real flavour of what the people were
:36:34. > :36:36.saying? You can't imply they are misleading or deceitful. There has
:36:37. > :36:42.to be a guarantee that it's the truth that is being exchanged. Do
:36:43. > :36:49.you not think the families of those soldiers or people who served in the
:36:50. > :36:53.war, who died, have the right to say why their children's lives were
:36:54. > :36:57.lost? Of course. We must have full disclosure. That is what Chilcot is
:36:58. > :37:05.about. You are going to get the reasons why... But... We can't - to
:37:06. > :37:08.protect Anglo American relations we can't say we can't, you know, we
:37:09. > :37:13.can't show that because it will damage this, it will be the secret.
:37:14. > :37:17.There's people who have lost their sons and daughters. They have the
:37:18. > :37:24.right to know why their lives were taken. You, Sir? Your party took us
:37:25. > :37:27.against the will of the people into an illegal war. We deserve to know.
:37:28. > :37:35.The people of the world deserve to know what happened. We don't deserve
:37:36. > :37:40.to get a gist. We deserve to know every single thing that went wrong
:37:41. > :37:43.and why we spent billions going into an illegal war and why it has
:37:44. > :37:50.worsened our national security. David Willetts? I think... Do you
:37:51. > :37:54.agree with him? I don't believe that the war was illegal, no. I do think
:37:55. > :37:59.there is all the key questions that people are asking about the war and
:38:00. > :38:03.Piers got, he put a fair and crucial question, which is what exactly was
:38:04. > :38:09.going on between Prime Minister Blair and President Bush and what
:38:10. > :38:15.assurances ordeals were being done. That is a crucial part of Chilcot.
:38:16. > :38:19.We do need to know that. That is absolutely essential. The Chilcot
:38:20. > :38:22.Inquiry is an independent inquiry, it is not - I believe that the
:38:23. > :38:27.people on that Chilcot Inquiry are going to try to get to the bottom of
:38:28. > :38:31.that. Hang on. On that point. Why has he then accepted the deal that
:38:32. > :38:38.he's been offered, simply giving the gist of conversations? I don't know
:38:39. > :38:44.what has been - the details of this arrangement. My understanding of
:38:45. > :38:48.what has been agreed between Chilcot and Prime Minister Blair is that
:38:49. > :38:53.there will be extracts so that there will be real words in quotation
:38:54. > :38:57.marks, but it will not be a transcript of everything that was
:38:58. > :39:04.said between Blair and Bush. I would assume that one of the issues is,
:39:05. > :39:07.what is going to happen in any future conversation between a
:39:08. > :39:13.British Prime Minister and an overseas... I absolutely agree - and
:39:14. > :39:18.you are correct in what you say about the parents of people who died
:39:19. > :39:21.needing to know everything about the circumstances of this war. The
:39:22. > :39:27.question is whether we can answer that question which is absolutely
:39:28. > :39:31.right and crucial whilst, at the same time, and a future American
:39:32. > :39:34.President able to say things to a British Prime Minister without his
:39:35. > :39:40.feeling that what I say in the next few years is going to appear in a
:39:41. > :39:45.transcript. If that, I assume that one of the issues is what kind of
:39:46. > :39:49.conversation - when our Prime Minister is talking to President
:39:50. > :39:53.Obama next week about what they are going to do in Nigeria to help with
:39:54. > :39:56.the security issue of the school kids that have been abducted in
:39:57. > :40:00.Nigeria - at what point can people say this is a conversation that we
:40:01. > :40:04.are having in confidence? Someone has to reach that judgment. It is a
:40:05. > :40:08.difficult judgment. I'm not privy to it. Clearly, Blair and Chilcot have
:40:09. > :40:15.tried to reach some sort of agreement. Hang on a second. When
:40:16. > :40:18.you have a war that is fought on an entirely false pretext that Saddam
:40:19. > :40:22.Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. I have never accused
:40:23. > :40:25.Tony Blair of lying. I think he probably did believe that Saddam had
:40:26. > :40:31.those weapons. I'm sure George Bush believed it, too. When it turned out
:40:32. > :40:38.that he did not have them, at that point this inquiry becomes
:40:39. > :40:42.incredibly important because the lives that Joey talked about - the
:40:43. > :40:47.soldiers, including my brother who went on the frontline and risked
:40:48. > :40:52.their lives, they are doing it for the wrong reasons. That is why this
:40:53. > :40:54.transcript could clear up whether Tony Blair, the British Prime
:40:55. > :40:58.Minister, gave assurances which he did not share with the British
:40:59. > :41:01.people or with the British Parliament. If you don't reveal
:41:02. > :41:06.them, everyone is going to assume that is what is on them. To pick you
:41:07. > :41:10.up on one point, David. You say it was an agreement made with Tony
:41:11. > :41:14.Blair. The letter Chilcot has written is written to the present
:41:15. > :41:19.Cabinet Secretary and... He has responsibility. He is not a party
:41:20. > :41:23.figure. He has responsibility for the crucial question which shouldn't
:41:24. > :41:27.be decided by any politician, which is are there any conversations that
:41:28. > :41:33.a British Prime Minister can have with the President of the US that
:41:34. > :41:37.the President of the US should be able to think the text is not going
:41:38. > :41:43.to be revealed? We shall never know the answer to that. The challenge is
:41:44. > :41:46.whether Chilcot can answer the crucial question - they are
:41:47. > :41:50.reasonable questions - whether he can answer those questions by he and
:41:51. > :41:53.his independent members of his inquiry looking at everything that
:41:54. > :41:58.was said between Bush and Blair in so far as we have any record of it
:41:59. > :42:03.anywhere in Whitehall. The thing that gets... This is what Jeremy
:42:04. > :42:16.Hayward has to decide. Whether that should be word-by-word publicly...
:42:17. > :42:24.Alright. You, Sir? I think Piers has hit the nail on the head. I think
:42:25. > :42:28.the reason we are not going to get the full conversations made public
:42:29. > :42:33.is one, we will find out the reasons we went to war. Two, I think this is
:42:34. > :42:37.the crucial thing, the public will realise that the national interest
:42:38. > :42:41.is not synonymous with the public interest. They will realise the
:42:42. > :42:44.national interest, whenever the establishment talks about the
:42:45. > :42:47.national interest, it is about protecting those people at the
:42:48. > :42:52.highest end of power in Whitehall. It is not about the public interest.
:42:53. > :42:55.How could anybody argue that fully publishing in full these
:42:56. > :43:01.conversations is not in the public interest? It shows one more thing.
:43:02. > :43:05.Why are we not talking about declassifying the conversations
:43:06. > :43:08.between the joint Joint Intelligence Committee over here and the Director
:43:09. > :43:12.of National Intelligence in the US? The intelligence was proved false,
:43:13. > :43:16.the dodgy dossier. The decision was taken at the top between two people
:43:17. > :43:23.who had a phone conversation where one probably said to the other, "I'm
:43:24. > :43:29.with you all the way, pal." You will get them, but it will just be 30
:43:30. > :43:32.years. The key thing is when Blair said after 9/11 we stand by the
:43:33. > :43:36.shoulders of our brothers or whatever the words were. I would
:43:37. > :43:41.like to see if it's Blair following through on that to say we would
:43:42. > :43:46.stand by you and the Americans using the premise of the 9/11 attacks to
:43:47. > :43:50.go and do what they want with the ridiculous foreign policy and
:43:51. > :43:54.whether Blair has tried to talk Bush out of it, whether Blair has agreed
:43:55. > :43:57.with him. I would like to see that. People have lost their lives. I want
:43:58. > :44:05.to know why they have lost their lives. The woman there on the left?
:44:06. > :44:10.disconnect that people feel with their parties. A quid pro quo that
:44:11. > :44:17.needs to happen if our phone calls and our emails and our communication
:44:18. > :44:22.is going to be tapped at will, surely that transparency should work
:44:23. > :44:26.both ways. We are in the age of Big Brother. That should work both ways.
:44:27. > :44:33.The second point I want to make. Joey Barton, I was with you some of
:44:34. > :44:37.the things he said, the analogy he may of four ugly girls will be on
:44:38. > :44:42.Twitter. Tomorrow you will be buried for. It I do apologise. I couldn't
:44:43. > :44:47.think of a better one. It's the first time I have ever done it. As
:44:48. > :44:53.Louise pointed out, my brains are in my face. J On your face it realise
:44:54. > :44:59.what had you said. I was nervous, I apologise. Let's go on to another
:45:00. > :45:03.question. Melissa Hughes. Should Heathrow Airport have a third
:45:04. > :45:10.runway. Here we are sitting in Heathrow. The great debate about
:45:11. > :45:15.whether there should be an extended runway, Gatwick runway, governments
:45:16. > :45:20.can't make up their minds. A report that won't be decided on until
:45:21. > :45:23.safely after the next general election. The Joey Barton without
:45:24. > :45:30.bringing in four girls, what is your view? I will never live that down,
:45:31. > :45:36.will I? No, you're not. I'm biased in this, in terms I live on the
:45:37. > :45:43.flight path. I'm dead against Heathrow having a third runway. And,
:45:44. > :45:47.I mean, am I right in thinking the last three parties at the general
:45:48. > :45:51.election had in their manifesto they were going to be against the third
:45:52. > :45:58.runway. From what little I've seen about it or what little I know about
:45:59. > :46:03.it, I've seen the Gatwick proposal, the Heathrow proposal. I travel on
:46:04. > :46:08.the Tube and seen Gatwick wanting to expand. As somebody who lives on the
:46:09. > :46:11.flight path I'm against it. Surmising most of the people who
:46:12. > :46:17.live around Heathrow don't want the extra traffic. Don't want the extra
:46:18. > :46:27.pollution. Somebody else should have it? Gatwick. They were talking about
:46:28. > :46:33.making Heathwick - People live around Heathrow and have houses -
:46:34. > :46:38.They seem to want it. Has anyone done research. People in this region
:46:39. > :46:42.are against it. I don't understand why the other parties on the
:46:43. > :46:46.manifesto were against it. What has changed? Have we got silent planes,
:46:47. > :46:51.less pollution. What has changed now? The woman up there, second row
:46:52. > :46:59.from the back. I think they should have a third runway, more economical
:47:00. > :47:04.than HS2, provide more jobs, bring in international jobs. It would be a
:47:05. > :47:10.lot better for the UK as a whole. You live one way or another close to
:47:11. > :47:15.Heathrow. Are you in favour of it? I'm in favour of Heathrow and
:47:16. > :47:19.Gatwick. Since Gatwick has been the nationalisation was taken off, I
:47:20. > :47:25.think Gatwick should be given a chance for being a global hub. They
:47:26. > :47:30.have restrictions until 2018. Their local council is in favour of it. I
:47:31. > :47:33.have done research as part of my management course. A lot of the
:47:34. > :47:37.debate was that Heathrow needs another runway because of the
:47:38. > :47:45.capacity is at maximum. Also I think Gatwick, they have a new CEO who has
:47:46. > :47:51.also been City of London Edinburgh he should be given a chance to give
:47:52. > :47:57.Gatwick another What is runway. UKIP's policy on it? There is a
:47:58. > :48:00.north/south divide on this one. I represent the north-west. When we
:48:01. > :48:05.had the lead story on the news about the Tube strikes. We really don't
:48:06. > :48:08.care if you have a Tube strike in London, it doesn't affect us in
:48:09. > :48:13.Manchester. It's like this with the Heathrow runway. The capacity point,
:48:14. > :48:17.sir, I was reading a little bit about that. As far as I can see,
:48:18. > :48:22.capacity, talk about capacity, that will create more demand. They had a
:48:23. > :48:25.really good example of that was in Frankfurt in 1984, the same
:48:26. > :48:30.problems. They built the third runway. Now, two years ago, they
:48:31. > :48:36.have now built a fourth runway. If you increase capacity, you will
:48:37. > :48:40.increase demand it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. The lady
:48:41. > :48:44.mentioned HS2 this is meant to be dispersed economic activity across
:48:45. > :48:47.the country. Heathrow, you get another runway, it will again suck
:48:48. > :48:51.everything into London. You know what, there are lots of things going
:48:52. > :48:55.on outside of the M25. I know it's really incredible. We have flushing
:48:56. > :48:58.toilets, we have running water in the north-west. Manchester is a
:48:59. > :49:03.great city. Liverpool is a great city. I would like to see, come on,
:49:04. > :49:09.let us see some of that economic activity diverted to other areas.
:49:10. > :49:13.Picking up on what Joey said. You know, I believe passionately, UKIP
:49:14. > :49:17.believe, that the people should have say. You will be affected, the
:49:18. > :49:23.people who live in this area. It's absolutely vital that you are
:49:24. > :49:26.consulted. You have to have that through a role referendum. The
:49:27. > :49:35.people affected in London don't want it, it shouldn't happen. Piers
:49:36. > :49:40.Morgan. Job creation where? It seems a classic British debate we are
:49:41. > :49:44.having. We are finding endless excuses not to do something which is
:49:45. > :49:47.absolutely overwhelmingly in our interest to do. Heathrow is the
:49:48. > :49:51.number one aviation brand that we have in this country. America, where
:49:52. > :49:56.I live most of the time, they love Heathrow. They don't talk about
:49:57. > :49:59.Gatwick. It doesn't have the same prestige, nothing against Gatwick.
:50:00. > :50:03.Heathrow is our blue ribboned airport, if you like. We need the
:50:04. > :50:07.capacity. We want to encourage the people who will be flooding from in
:50:08. > :50:12.from China, America, other countries, the Far East,
:50:13. > :50:15.predominantly. They will come from their own airports which are
:50:16. > :50:19.sensational. I have been to Shanghai, I have been to the Middle
:50:20. > :50:24.East, their airports are way ahead of most of us go. To Terminal 5 here
:50:25. > :50:28.at Heathrow, a fantastic terminal. Recently voted one of the best
:50:29. > :50:34.terminals in the world. I've used it all the time. Tremendous. Terminal 2
:50:35. > :50:38.about to open is modelled on Terminal 5, it looks fantastic. We
:50:39. > :50:41.should be proud of this. We should say - right, we have something
:50:42. > :50:45.special here. We are redeveloping Heathrow to become a genuinely
:50:46. > :50:51.world-class airport. Let us give them a third runway, let us become
:50:52. > :50:55.not just one of the best airports in the world, let's become THE best.
:50:56. > :51:02.Let us not be British about it and say, oh, it's noisy. Oh, the traffic
:51:03. > :51:10.will be bad. Oh, the pollution... Joey. Let's be the best! Piers, you
:51:11. > :51:14.know if you travel in Heathrow or in - I live under the path too. It will
:51:15. > :51:19.go over my head. I thought you lived in New York? At the moment I'm back
:51:20. > :51:25.here for reasons that are slightly beyond nigh my control. I have a
:51:26. > :51:30.house that be under the flight path. The 747 was the noisest hair
:51:31. > :51:33.aircraft in the world. It's one of the quietest. Right. You have to
:51:34. > :51:39.work out, the planes are getting quieter and quieter. Planes are
:51:40. > :51:43.getting quieter. Technology will mean they will continue to get
:51:44. > :51:48.quieter. Do not let noise, pollution and traffic stop us being a
:51:49. > :51:52.world-class airport that makes us - What about the rest of the country.
:51:53. > :51:56.Build another one in Manchester and Birmingham where ever else you want
:51:57. > :52:03.to build one. I don't see you begging to do it. They should let
:52:04. > :52:08.these people decide. I have to tell you how wonderful Glasgow is. Build
:52:09. > :52:12.one everywhere! The trick and difficulty in this is you have to
:52:13. > :52:17.balance out economic development. Piers made that argument strongly.
:52:18. > :52:20.You can't always throw things out because a certain group of people
:52:21. > :52:24.don't want them. As a country and across the globe have to take
:52:25. > :52:27.account of aviation emissions too. That is a challenge. I think it's
:52:28. > :52:31.right, believe it or not, what the Government have done through the
:52:32. > :52:34.Davis Commission, the proper way to come to this conclusion is to look
:52:35. > :52:40.at evidence-led policy. Where we look at the different arguments and
:52:41. > :52:47.you try to come to a conclusion that allows you, hopefully, to look at
:52:48. > :52:51.noise pollution and do something about CO2 emissions. I wouldn't be
:52:52. > :52:58.in a position where we are under cutting developments in the
:52:59. > :53:02.south-east. I do think point to point air travel and our airports
:53:03. > :53:16.across (inaudible) are important. David Willetts can you answer
:53:17. > :53:19.briefly. That's why I do think having Howard Davis looking through
:53:20. > :53:23.the options will assess these arguments we are hearing about
:53:24. > :53:27.noise, pollution or global hubs best to give him the objective analysis
:53:28. > :53:31.and look forward to his report. That is the only way we will ever resolve
:53:32. > :53:36.this. I live on the flight path. It's noisy. It is. Maybe they will
:53:37. > :53:41.get quieter. Anyone who lives on it will testify to it. You hear them
:53:42. > :53:46.going over. Is all right. The thing that strikes me is expanding Gatwick
:53:47. > :53:49.theory. You can - they were talking about putting 15 minutes or 20
:53:50. > :53:57.minutes high-speed link between the two. Gatwick essentially becoming
:53:58. > :54:01.Heathwick. London is our capital city. It should be the pride of the
:54:02. > :54:06.country. It should be should be the one we work hard to make the best. I
:54:07. > :54:10.will bow to Louise Bours, not everybody is obsessed whether
:54:11. > :54:15.Heathrow has its extra runway. I will take a question, if we can just
:54:16. > :54:22.do it in a few minutes, from Robert Benjamin, please. Yes. Are NHS
:54:23. > :54:28.funded slimming clubs really the best way towards a healthier nation?
:54:29. > :54:34.This is a kind of big story. You are a nutritionist, aren't you? Yes. The
:54:35. > :54:37.NHS will pay for you to go to Weight Watchers and lose weight. Are you in
:54:38. > :54:42.favour of that or not? I think it's a nice idea. I fear it's not
:54:43. > :54:59.preventative enough. Obesity is a very big problem. UK girls ranked -
:55:00. > :55:04.One for Joey Barton. The third heaviest girls, is that right? You
:55:05. > :55:11.are a health freak, are you in favour? Am I? I thought you were.
:55:12. > :55:16.I'm struggling to see how the NHS we should subsidise. I really am. I
:55:17. > :55:20.have written about the carrot-and-stick argument about
:55:21. > :55:23.introducing a "fat tax" people obviously are aware of the kind of
:55:24. > :55:29.things they are are ping in their mouth. What gets me, this may be
:55:30. > :55:34.where the Government can help. I know a lot of people (inaudible)
:55:35. > :55:39.they would really like to eat healthily, eat organic, it's very
:55:40. > :55:42.expensive. The alternative for them, they have to feed the kids. The
:55:43. > :55:46.stuff that is really cheap is the stuff that is pretty crap. If the
:55:47. > :55:53.Government could introduce something where maybe people on low income or
:55:54. > :55:59.benefits can receive a coupon or a token or something that allows them
:56:00. > :56:05.to get fresh vegetables, fresh fruit and veg and give the kids a healthy
:56:06. > :56:11.diet. I think that would be a good ?5 billion thing. Every single year
:56:12. > :56:16.the NHS spends on obesity-related illnesses. If someone is willing to
:56:17. > :56:21.make the effort to try, I believe Weight Watchers and Slimming World
:56:22. > :56:27.change to how you look and cook food. That has to be cheaper than
:56:28. > :56:32.spending ?5 billion on gastric bands and type two diabetes etc, etc. Why
:56:33. > :56:36.not look at the alternatives. You have to take it further. Why are so
:56:37. > :56:40.many girls in particular, the boys figures weren't much better, so
:56:41. > :56:46.obese in this country compared to other European countries? The answer
:56:47. > :56:50.is, we have become a sedatory country. My four kids love their
:56:51. > :56:54.sport. They play it all the time. It keeps their weight down. A lot of
:56:55. > :56:58.orchids don't get sports at schools. I have banged this drum for a long
:56:59. > :57:02.time. The one thing I agreed with Boris Johnson about, more than
:57:03. > :57:06.anything else, bringing 90 minutes or two hours of compulsory sport in
:57:07. > :57:14.school. They are on laptops and phones all day. Get them running and
:57:15. > :57:18.losing weight. David Willetts. We have an obesity problem. It's
:57:19. > :57:22.serious. I agree with Piers. We have added an extra hour of sport across
:57:23. > :57:25.all our schools because people do need more examiner countries. After
:57:26. > :57:31.the Olympics we are actually doing more sport. You are in favour of the
:57:32. > :57:36.NHS putting slimming clubs - No, I think - it is their decision for
:57:37. > :57:40.local individual authorities. I'm not convinced that is a good use. I
:57:41. > :57:44.think examiner countries is the right way. Whether that would be a
:57:45. > :57:48.long-term solution I don't know. We need to get people into looking at
:57:49. > :57:52.food. The world has changed. How you eat for the long-term, not just some
:57:53. > :57:57.of the short-term fads which some of the slimming clubs are guilty of. If
:57:58. > :58:02.I agree with Louise about this, if it helps you think about food, that
:58:03. > :58:07.is good. It's not just young people, maybe we could show by example about
:58:08. > :58:11.some of the way we behaviour - Did you point to me as a sign of fine
:58:12. > :58:19.physical fitness. What a perfect way to end the show! We all have to wise
:58:20. > :58:24.up and show by example. We are all guilty. You should look at what they
:58:25. > :58:30.did in Dubai? What did they do in Dubai They gave a gram of gold for
:58:31. > :58:33.every kilogram of weight lost. They spend ?400,000 - Something for the
:58:34. > :58:38.UKIP manifesto. Something for the manifesto. Once more, you can yo-yo
:58:39. > :58:44.you get a gram every other year. I will sign up for that one now. That
:58:45. > :58:51.is it. Next week Question Time will be in Wales. The following week we
:58:52. > :58:59.will be in King's Lynn. The website is there on our screen You can call
:59:00. > :59:05.the number: If you are listening on 5 Live the debate goes on on
:59:06. > :59:11.Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to my panel, all of you who came to
:59:12. > :59:16.take part in this programme, in this brand new Terminal 2. Until next
:59:17. > :59:23.time, from Question Time, good night.