:00:17. > :00:22.welcome to Question Time. Good evening to you at home, to our
:00:23. > :00:26.audience who will be putting the which the panel do not know until
:00:27. > :00:31.they hear them. Conservative Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan
:00:32. > :00:34.Smith, Labour boss Mac Shadow Welfare Reform Minister, Chris
:00:35. > :00:40.Bryant, Liberal Democrat MP for Wells in Somerset, Tessa Munt, Salma
:00:41. > :00:42.Yaqoob, who heads the stop the War campaign in Birmingham and Leeds
:00:43. > :00:44.Hands Off Birmingham Schools, and the editor of Private Eye, Ian
:00:45. > :01:01.Hislop. Alistair Webster is the first
:01:02. > :01:08.question. Should Britain follow Barack Obama's lead and keep all
:01:09. > :01:15.options open on Iraq? Iain Duncan Smith. This is a very dangerous and
:01:16. > :01:19.difficult situation, with ISIS having moved across from Syria into
:01:20. > :01:23.northern Iraq, into most soul, and further south, even taking the oil
:01:24. > :01:28.refinery. I understand they have been held in check by the Iraqi
:01:29. > :01:31.Armed Forces for the moment. I do not know quite what other
:01:32. > :01:34.developments. This is a hugely difficult problem that has come out
:01:35. > :01:39.of the back of the fighting in Syria, which has conditioned and
:01:40. > :01:41.trained these soldiers to such an extent that they feel they can take
:01:42. > :01:46.these bits of territory with impunity. It is a problem not just
:01:47. > :01:52.for Iraq but for all of us, because I worry about the others that live
:01:53. > :01:56.in Iraq, in the Borders, and also some of those in the autonomous
:01:57. > :02:01.regions. For us, it is a problem of what we should and can do. I think
:02:02. > :02:05.the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, has made pretty clear that we
:02:06. > :02:09.do not intend to take any physical activity, to go in with boots on the
:02:10. > :02:15.ground. That is essentially not going to happen. But I think where
:02:16. > :02:21.Barack Obama is right, I think it is a fact that we need to give whatever
:02:22. > :02:25.support we possibly can to this democratic and elected government in
:02:26. > :02:28.Iraq. And if we don't show that in some form or another, and I don't
:02:29. > :02:33.know quite what assistance they need, as they do have a large armed
:02:34. > :02:37.force, and it is question of getting it doubly organised and led, but the
:02:38. > :02:41.key thing is that we need to assure them and others in the region that
:02:42. > :02:46.we will support this government in trying to re-stabilise this and
:02:47. > :02:49.drive out that terrorist group. It is dangerous not just for Iraq, but
:02:50. > :02:55.has the potential to destabilise the whole region, if a group of, as it
:02:56. > :02:59.were, insurgent terrorists is able to take over a section of land and
:03:00. > :03:02.hold it, it will encourage others to do much the same and we may see a
:03:03. > :03:07.complete change in many of the Borders. When the Foreign Secretary
:03:08. > :03:11.says we will support the United States in anything they decide to
:03:12. > :03:18.do, does he mean that literally? If they decide on drones to attack, the
:03:19. > :03:23.government would support it? Support does not mean you will do exactly
:03:24. > :03:26.what they do. It means that if they want to make some effort to try to
:03:27. > :03:32.help and support the Iraqi government. But you would agree with
:03:33. > :03:37.anything that Obama decided to do? He is saying that we support their
:03:38. > :03:40.endeavours to ensure they support the democratically elected
:03:41. > :03:45.government in Iraq. If we do not now show and demonstrate that they have
:03:46. > :03:47.support, whatever support is necessary within limitations, and
:03:48. > :03:51.neither of them have said they will put soldiers on the ground, but it
:03:52. > :03:56.is vitally important that this group does not succeed in so destabilising
:03:57. > :04:01.Iraq now that you end up with terrorist activities, people being
:04:02. > :04:04.harassed, beheaded, dealt with in some of these cities in some of the
:04:05. > :04:09.brutal ways they have been doing in Syria, this cannot be allowed to
:04:10. > :04:11.happen in Iraq. We have a reason and right to try to support this
:04:12. > :04:16.democratically elected government and to get it stable. I know it does
:04:17. > :04:19.not sound easy and the country here in Britain and others do not want to
:04:20. > :04:24.get involved in further wars, and neither do we. But in this case, we
:04:25. > :04:27.need to give them whatever assurance and support they need because what
:04:28. > :04:34.is at stake here is an attempt by people to take over the country
:04:35. > :04:37.against a democratically elected will of the public. We must stand
:04:38. > :04:45.with the democratically elected government of Iraq. Salma Yaqoob. If
:04:46. > :04:49.proof were needed about how disastrous the intervention in Iraq
:04:50. > :04:53.was, today's news is proof of that. This is not just about Syria. The
:04:54. > :04:57.roots of this takeover and the only point I would agree with Ian to Mike
:04:58. > :05:04.probably is that this is a very, very dangerous group. -- I would
:05:05. > :05:09.agree with Ian tonight. They now have their eyes set on Baghdad.
:05:10. > :05:13.Let's not forget how this has come about. It is because the
:05:14. > :05:22.democratically elected government is actually led by deeply sectarian
:05:23. > :05:29.people, like Malachy, -- Nouri al-Maliki. The poor people are stuck
:05:30. > :05:32.between two things. One, an Iraqi army who they do not trust, who
:05:33. > :05:39.should be defending them against these jihadists. At the same time,
:05:40. > :05:44.fearing the jihadists, who do have a very extreme and violent approach.
:05:45. > :05:49.That is a description. The question is whether Britain should support
:05:50. > :05:52.the American president and keep options open. I don't think
:05:53. > :05:56.President Obama knows what he's going to do. It is so confusing. In
:05:57. > :06:00.Syria, they are backing the very people they are fighting in Iraq. So
:06:01. > :06:05.for them to expect hacking when they do not know what they are doing
:06:06. > :06:08.themselves, and they have two -- they have to take full
:06:09. > :06:12.responsibility. They should accept that the intervention in Iraq, not
:06:13. > :06:17.only was it $1 trillion being wasted, thousands of American lives
:06:18. > :06:22.and hundreds of British lives lost, and 100,000 Iraqis, the fires that
:06:23. > :06:25.you started then, there is no Al-Qaeda in Iraq. There is Al-Qaeda
:06:26. > :06:28.in Iraq now. APPLAUSE
:06:29. > :06:41.. You voted for the war in Iraq. Both
:06:42. > :06:44.Iain Duncan Smith and I did. That is why they are desperate to say that
:06:45. > :06:50.Iraq has nothing to do with it. At least own up to that. I have not
:06:51. > :06:52.said anything yet. One of the disastrous mistakes made, whatever
:06:53. > :06:56.you think about going in in the first place, one of the big mistakes
:06:57. > :07:01.made by American and British forces in Iraq was that we decided to
:07:02. > :07:05.dismantle the security forces, the police and the army, because we said
:07:06. > :07:11.it was run by Saddam Hussein's allies, and what that created was a
:07:12. > :07:15.terrible power vacuum. Actually, you saw the collapse of law and order in
:07:16. > :07:19.the country. Of course, it has been very difficult to bring back police
:07:20. > :07:23.and security services that can ensure security in the country at
:07:24. > :07:29.the moment. Yes, you are right in one sense, that we do bear a degree
:07:30. > :07:32.of responsibility. I think in this country, of course it is in our
:07:33. > :07:39.interests that there should be a secure country there, and that ISIS
:07:40. > :07:43.should not prevail. But I think, when you bear in mind the 179
:07:44. > :07:50.British servicemen and women who died in Iraq, that the threshold for
:07:51. > :07:54.our possible intervention is very, very high in the public mind. That
:07:55. > :07:59.is to say, I think most people in this country would say, just as
:08:00. > :08:04.Robert Gates, incidentally, has already said to Clinton, as I
:08:05. > :08:06.understand it, the former Defence Secretary in the United States of
:08:07. > :08:09.America, that we would need our heads examining if we were to be
:08:10. > :08:15.thinking about putting Western troops in the field at the moment in
:08:16. > :08:18.Iraq. The White House apparently tonight said that Obama is not
:08:19. > :08:22.considering boots on the ground, that is not what he is talking
:08:23. > :08:28.about. What did British servicemen and women die for? This is not the
:08:29. > :08:35.democratic Iraq which we were told was worth the sacrifice. Let's stick
:08:36. > :08:39.to the point. That is the point. You are all describing the situation
:08:40. > :08:43.since we invaded Iraq. The question is what should happen now, in the
:08:44. > :08:50.crisis tonight, whether Britain should support Obama in anything he
:08:51. > :08:54.chooses to do. I don't think Britain should support America in anything
:08:55. > :08:58.she chooses to do. We have a foreign policy of our own. We have to act
:08:59. > :09:03.with our allies and to try and make sure, primarily through diplomatic
:09:04. > :09:08.means and so on, that there is a secure Middle East. This is not just
:09:09. > :09:13.an issue, Ian is right, not just an issue about Iraq, but about Syria
:09:14. > :09:17.and the whole area. But I think that nonetheless the line that Robert
:09:18. > :09:21.Gates is said to have said to Obama, namely that you would have to have
:09:22. > :09:25.your heads examining if you were really thinking about putting troops
:09:26. > :09:34.on the ground in Iraq at the moment, is right. The man on the right. I
:09:35. > :09:39.think Chris is absolutely right. We really are at a very high level of
:09:40. > :09:43.need to get troops on the ground. I don't think, frankly, after 2003 and
:09:44. > :09:47.everything that happened, I don't think the people in this room all
:09:48. > :09:51.the country will stand for it for a very long time. You asked this
:09:52. > :09:57.question. You don't think anything should be done. I would not say that
:09:58. > :10:04.nothing should be done, but I think it has to get far beyond where we
:10:05. > :10:10.are tonight for the British public to accept our Armed Forces going in
:10:11. > :10:12.on the ground again. Ian Hislop. The problem is we had a vote over Syria
:10:13. > :10:17.in the House of Commons, and I think problem is we had a vote over Syria
:10:18. > :10:21.with the support of the British people we said, we are not going in
:10:22. > :10:25.again. We do not know who we are supporting, it is too confused and
:10:26. > :10:29.we have no idea what we are doing. This has spilt over. Our record in
:10:30. > :10:33.Iraq is not glorious and people laughing king, why on earth would we
:10:34. > :10:39.do this again? You talk about destabilising the region. It is
:10:40. > :10:43.pretty unstable. What we are witnessing is something horrific.
:10:44. > :10:46.You say what should we do. The answer is that we are not going to
:10:47. > :10:46.do anything. We laid off 1000 troops this morning.
:10:47. > :10:57.APPLAUSE .
:10:58. > :11:01.The British Army is not going to be going in. The only power that can do
:11:02. > :11:05.anything in this place is America. It is entirely up to them whether
:11:06. > :11:09.they do anything or not, but given what happened last time, most people
:11:10. > :11:14.will think we are not going to help by going in. Would we help by
:11:15. > :11:18.providing armaments, as the Americans have been doing? What
:11:19. > :11:22.happened with the Iraqi army is that we gave them the armaments and they
:11:23. > :11:26.ran away and left them behind, so they are now in the hands of the
:11:27. > :11:31.jihadists. There is this huge stretch of land which a small army
:11:32. > :11:35.of jihadists talk. Everyone said the Iraqi army was trained and we could
:11:36. > :11:39.leave now. We said that because we wanted to get out. They are
:11:40. > :11:42.obviously incapable of defending the country. It is a mess, and I despair
:11:43. > :11:52.at the idea that we will do something, because we want. -- we
:11:53. > :11:56.will not. Firstly, I would say it does not seem we have been asked if
:11:57. > :12:01.we would like to intervene. I do not think there is any stomach for any
:12:02. > :12:04.intervention of that sort. If we go back to the Syrian vote last
:12:05. > :12:09.September, the whole point was that we were not going to make the
:12:10. > :12:14.situation any better by bombing people, or supplying arms. I think
:12:15. > :12:17.it is absolutely mad to think we might escalate. The other thing that
:12:18. > :12:22.happened as a result of the Syrian vote was that actually, for once, we
:12:23. > :12:27.led America. It was at that point that Obama started considering
:12:28. > :12:32.talking to Congress about whether Congress was going to go ahead with
:12:33. > :12:34.this. And I think France as well. The National Assembly started to
:12:35. > :12:41.consider whether they ought to be consulted. Actually, Putin seized
:12:42. > :12:48.the opportunity because in the end we ended up voting for nothing. We
:12:49. > :12:52.decided not to decide anything. I was opposed to military action in
:12:53. > :12:57.Syria. I would not have voted for military action in Syria, mainly.
:12:58. > :13:01.Tessa has made an important point that, for once, the democratic will
:13:02. > :13:05.of the people of this country was represented in Parliament. That
:13:06. > :13:08.showed the influence of the anti-war movement who were sidelined at the
:13:09. > :13:12.time, that all those people who came out and marched and felt the moral
:13:13. > :13:17.is, the impact was made now, because people know the appetite is not
:13:18. > :13:21.there, for the right reasons. If ordinary people got it right, we
:13:22. > :13:22.have to ask why did the political elite get it so wrong?
:13:23. > :13:34.APPLAUSE And this would apply even if there
:13:35. > :13:38.was the possibility or the threat of Baghdad falling equally to ISIS?
:13:39. > :13:42.If it was the case that military intervention was something that was
:13:43. > :13:47.going to help, of course, if it was about saving lives, genuinely, there
:13:48. > :13:51.may be an argument. But what we have seen in reality, not an academic
:13:52. > :13:54.argument, we have seen we had an intervention and it did not result
:13:55. > :14:00.in a democratic, plural estate, great equal society. Sectarian
:14:01. > :14:07.tensions have been unleashed, the genie is out of the box. It is not
:14:08. > :14:13.as unpleasant as... You should redirect your energies somewhere
:14:14. > :14:17.else. The jihadists are a threat to everybody, right. This is not going
:14:18. > :14:23.to be solved by America or Britain, but in the region. It has to be in
:14:24. > :14:26.Iran, Saudi Arabia. Ironically, I predict now that people will say, we
:14:27. > :14:32.might need Assad to control those extremists. This is how messy the
:14:33. > :14:37.situation is, and we cannot pretend we do not have a direct
:14:38. > :14:42.responsibility. I would not leave the future to Assad, which is where
:14:43. > :14:45.your argument leads. I am talking about real politic, the fact that he
:14:46. > :14:51.was going to control these people, you able to fight back. I am not any
:14:52. > :14:55.support of Assad, but I am talking about the fact that the rebel forces
:14:56. > :15:04.were at one time being armed by our government. And now it is coming
:15:05. > :15:09.back. At a really high level. It has to be
:15:10. > :15:13.done at a reasonable level. Now the sectarian violence has been
:15:14. > :15:17.unleashed we have to bring the region together. The man in yellow
:15:18. > :15:21.up there. Then I will come to you. Why does the panel believe the
:15:22. > :15:26.troops that we trained have dropped their weapons and run off? Iain
:15:27. > :15:32.Duncan Smith. There was quite a good piece on the BBC today about what
:15:33. > :15:37.was going on around Mosul. And, a lot of the problem is not just that
:15:38. > :15:42.they turned and ran, because the the confusion was that a lot of them
:15:43. > :15:45.simply did not want to engage in firing and shelling their own
:15:46. > :15:49.people. There was a real problem about their morale at that stage.
:15:50. > :15:50.Since then, they have been able to be stabilised and
:15:51. > :15:53.Since then, they have been able to be stabilised now they know what
:15:54. > :15:57.they are fighting. The problem was, they were simply, for some reason
:15:58. > :16:02.or, I do not know, completely unprepared for what crossed the
:16:03. > :16:06.border and came at them. I want to second this. The talk about whether
:16:07. > :16:11.the British will put boots on the ground. That I do not believe will
:16:12. > :16:16.happen. There is enough boots on the ground. The Iraqi army numbers a
:16:17. > :16:21.million people. How do you help them to restabilise their position? What
:16:22. > :16:24.help do they need to get so they can start to drive the people back. They
:16:25. > :16:28.don't need us as soldiers to enter the ground. What they do need is, if
:16:29. > :16:32.necessary, financial support. They will need support in munitions, I
:16:33. > :16:37.don't know. The point is, this, whatever else you say, by the way,
:16:38. > :16:42.whatever else its failings, as Churchill said, this is at least an
:16:43. > :16:48.elected government. If we do not support somehow, I do not mean - one
:16:49. > :16:51.second, you had a long say. Ian is right, no way we will put boots on
:16:52. > :16:57.the ground. For all their failings this was an elected government. We
:16:58. > :17:02.need to stand by them in some way or another, otherwise what comes after
:17:03. > :17:05.that. We are being given here is some terrible imposition of people
:17:06. > :17:09.who do not allow women to go to school. Who do not want them to have
:17:10. > :17:12.the vote. Who make them sit-in places they don't want to be,
:17:13. > :17:16.prepared to torture and brutalise people. If that is what we would
:17:17. > :17:22.rather see in Iraq, you can count me out. For all it is failings I think
:17:23. > :17:25.we to support this democratically-elected government.
:17:26. > :17:30.APPLAUSE You had your hand up. Do you want to
:17:31. > :17:35.speak? It's important when you consider intervention to see what
:17:36. > :17:39.the vested interests would be. The last time we intervened we thought
:17:40. > :17:44.there were vested interests with intervention in Iraq. This time we
:17:45. > :17:52.see it as a right of care. We see concerned refugees I think we should
:17:53. > :17:58.intervene with the support of America, not militarily. The back at
:17:59. > :18:02.the back. There is no appetite for war, surely there is no appetite to
:18:03. > :18:07.stand back and watch these things happen. Maybe support
:18:08. > :18:09.avoid troops on the ground later. Nobody wants to go to troops on the
:18:10. > :18:13.ground. What support Nobody wants to go to troops on the
:18:14. > :18:18.to see? Financial Nobody wants to go to troops on the
:18:19. > :18:25.for - For the government? Is I agree. We bomb them from the air,
:18:26. > :18:28.don't go in from the ground, afterwards it falls apart and the
:18:29. > :18:33.sectarian groups attack each other and we just watch.
:18:34. > :18:35.APPLAUSE You, sir. The problem is the borders are
:18:36. > :18:41.all in the sir. The problem is the borders are
:18:42. > :18:45.put there by the league of nations, Iraq shouldn't be a country as it
:18:46. > :18:49.is. So many, as we have heard, different groups there. Kurdistan is
:18:50. > :18:54.another one, I hear people who work with me who say, "I'm a Kurd from
:18:55. > :19:02.Kurdistan" that is not there at all. These borders were put up years ago
:19:03. > :19:11.they shouldn't be where they are. You will not accept their redrawing
:19:12. > :19:15.by ISIS? I would totally agree with you on that. Look at what happened
:19:16. > :19:21.historically, we should learn from history, should we not? This
:19:22. > :19:26.country, when it was running its Empire drew lines on the map of all
:19:27. > :19:30.sorts of parts of the world and took no account of people and the way in
:19:31. > :19:34.which people moved or grazed their animals or faith. What happened with
:19:35. > :19:42.the war in Iraq, there was a civil war. We intervened. And, we did our
:19:43. > :19:48.bit and pieces. We did not plan, at all, really, for adequate - We
:19:49. > :19:55.intervened first then there was a civil war. Sorry. Yes. It has never
:19:56. > :19:58.been a happy situation, has, it between Sunnis and Shias. We are
:19:59. > :20:01.back to the situation where we have civil war, the
:20:02. > :20:07.back to the situation where we have adequate. You sir on the right
:20:08. > :20:12.there. I can recall the advice to the President before the invasion he
:20:13. > :20:18.said, "if you go into Iraq again it will be like a mammoth going into a
:20:19. > :20:24.tar pit." Politicians waited for a second time. They didn't give a damn
:20:25. > :20:26.about the foot soldiers and my comrades who had to go there. Now
:20:27. > :20:32.the mess that is created by our comrades who had to go there. Now
:20:33. > :20:34.have taken place. You sir, three along. As
:20:35. > :20:40.have taken place. You sir, three borders have been moved so many
:20:41. > :20:44.times within the region, there are so many tribes, ethnic groups that
:20:45. > :20:47.are completely alien to each other. We have the modern time of
:20:48. > :20:51.are completely alien to each other. modern weapons, there is one thing
:20:52. > :20:53.that you haven't discussed at all, it's crude oil. We have not
:20:54. > :20:56.discussed oil. You, sir, it's crude oil. We have not
:20:57. > :21:03.discussed oil. in the yellow shirt. Two of you. I will go to you. I
:21:04. > :21:07.served in Basra with the RAF. Politicians start wars, not
:21:08. > :21:11.soldiers. The politicians need to read the history books and learn
:21:12. > :21:15.from history and their mistakes. You served in Basra? I did. What do you
:21:16. > :21:20.make of what is happening now? Like history repeating itself. It really
:21:21. > :21:25.is. Does it make you despair of what happened before? Is I'm proud of my
:21:26. > :21:30.country. I'm proud of my service to my country. You know but the Iraqis
:21:31. > :21:37.have to help themselves. You canle only help them so far. OK.
:21:38. > :21:40.APPLAUSE -- can only help them so far. We
:21:41. > :21:43.have a number of other questions to get through. You can join in the
:21:44. > :22:01.debate, text Twitter: A question from Avril Wright,
:22:02. > :22:09.please. Will Michael Gove's spot checks in schools eliminate
:22:10. > :22:13.extremism? Will Michael Gove's spot checks eliminate extremism, Ian
:22:14. > :22:17.Hislop? Well, I hope so. It was an unedifying spectacle, two members of
:22:18. > :22:21.the Cabinet blaming each other for a problem that is fairly serious.
:22:22. > :22:26.Luckily, Ofsted have gone in. They have put in their reports, 21
:22:27. > :22:30.schools, five of them are in special measures, 11 need improving. There
:22:31. > :22:34.is evidence there they found extremely worrying. Yes, something
:22:35. > :22:39.needed to be done. It is being done. The evidence there is worrying of
:22:40. > :22:43.that sort of fundamental attempt to take over schools. What was the
:22:44. > :22:51.evidence? Lots of words were used, what was the evidence? The evidence
:22:52. > :22:55.was a culture of fear, intimidation, segregation going on, curriculum
:22:56. > :23:00.which was not allowing for biology, girls doing music, drama. There is a
:23:01. > :23:08.huge amount of it - Teachers were being - 20-odd whistleblowers who
:23:09. > :23:13.got gagging clauses who complained. The idea it is a political puttup
:23:14. > :23:16.job. The council received 200 complaints about these schools from
:23:17. > :23:21.parents and teachers. No-one did anything at all until it blew up we
:23:22. > :23:26.watched the Cabinet throwing chunks of blame at each other. It's not - I
:23:27. > :23:32.don't think we should be distracted by that story. Something was going
:23:33. > :23:37.badly wrong. Your movement is called Hands Off the Schools. Let's have
:23:38. > :23:39.local accountability to have these schools take the same line as
:23:40. > :23:44.schools in all the rest of the country. That's the sort of
:23:45. > :23:54.schooling that I think works and stops extremism coming in.
:23:55. > :24:01.APPLAUSE I said at the beginning you headed a
:24:02. > :24:06.new movement called Hands Off Birmingham Schools, what is your
:24:07. > :24:11.reply S-I agree schools should reflect the local accountability.
:24:12. > :24:14.The one that is have been put into special measures were academies.
:24:15. > :24:19.They were actually governed from Whitehall. All this blame gamesome
:24:20. > :24:25.very unedifying. The most important point - I'm from Birmingham. I have
:24:26. > :24:29.gone into Park View School, met with the teachers and the staff and the
:24:30. > :24:34.parents. One thing that has not been really banged on about, which is
:24:35. > :24:38.really important, the whole thing was this Trojan Horse letter, which
:24:39. > :24:45.was found to be faked. The whole thing was about an extremist plot -
:24:46. > :24:50.It's not fake. Of course they were looking for it. There was ant plot.
:24:51. > :24:56.There was a badly organised attempt by lots of individuals. So what!
:24:57. > :25:00.There was no extremism found. That is not true. That is not what they
:25:01. > :25:07.said. Simply not what they said. They are two separate reports. They
:25:08. > :25:12.did not find What do extremism. You call extremism? People worried there
:25:13. > :25:18.was security issues a threat to this country. People are having -
:25:19. > :25:23.Extremism is different to terrorism. There was clearly instances of
:25:24. > :25:28.extremism. Nobody found any plots to mount some kind of terrorist attack,
:25:29. > :25:31.definitely. Indeed. I think the very fact, for instance, that girls and
:25:32. > :25:36.boys were treated differently in some of these schools is a sign of
:25:37. > :25:41.extremism. We shouldn't put up with that in British schools.
:25:42. > :25:47.APPLAUSE I think that there is - Hold on a
:25:48. > :25:50.second. Can you answer exactly what Chris Bryant said. Do you think
:25:51. > :25:54.there was a problem in any of these schools that needed any attention?
:25:55. > :25:58.I'm sure there were governance issues, as there are with any large
:25:59. > :26:04.organisations. I had people come to me to talk about the fact they had
:26:05. > :26:08.felt intimidated. Yes, these issues need to be addressed. Let us not
:26:09. > :26:13.talk it through the lens of extremism - Sorry. Please, the
:26:14. > :26:20.schools have been smeared here. They have actually challenging through a
:26:21. > :26:25.judicial review. The segregation question was in PCE not in lessons.
:26:26. > :26:31.There were a group of pupils with special needs - I'm sorry. I will
:26:32. > :26:35.bring you in. What is it you - you said there was a problem. What is
:26:36. > :26:42.the problem before Ian replies? Governance issues What do you mean
:26:43. > :26:47.by "governance issues" If there was a white middle-class area they would
:26:48. > :26:50.have been called "pushy parents" the impression across the country in
:26:51. > :26:57.Birmingham there were Muslim parents trying to get faith through the back
:26:58. > :27:00.door. The reality is this - I want to hear the answer to that. What is
:27:01. > :27:06.the objection that you have on the way things were being done? They
:27:07. > :27:11.don't want a faith school. They are happy - Sorry. You must come to the
:27:12. > :27:15.point. It's not fair. What is it - It's not fair on the schools that
:27:16. > :27:19.have been - You have said there was a problem. All I'm asking you...
:27:20. > :27:29.What was the problem? What do you think the problem was? I'm telling
:27:30. > :27:35.you, Park View, Sikh gentleman is the principal. Assistant principal
:27:36. > :27:40.is an abg Nossic. How can accuse this school - There is no problem?
:27:41. > :27:43.In terms of the cultural isolation - What is the problem? The schools
:27:44. > :27:47.were outis standing, not just because of the high academic
:27:48. > :27:55.results, they are socially inclusive. Christmas was never
:27:56. > :28:01.banned. No, no, sorry. You had a chance. Have you been to the schools
:28:02. > :28:05.or talked to the teachers? No Ofsted inspectors went in. Did
:28:06. > :28:10.APPLAUSE Iain Duncan Smith. You said there
:28:11. > :28:15.was something wrong. I gave you a chance to answer. You now say there
:28:16. > :28:19.is nothing wrong. Iain Duncan Smith. The issues were not about extremism.
:28:20. > :28:22.Governance issues. Ian, when he started, was absolutely right. The
:28:23. > :28:26.purpose of having an organisation like Ofsted is that they are
:28:27. > :28:30.independent of politicalcle intervention - They are not
:28:31. > :28:36.independent now? I'm sorry. They are independent they do not take their
:28:37. > :28:44.direction. They were asked to take - Why did they do - Do me a favour.
:28:45. > :28:49.They went and looked at these schools they did not find they were
:28:50. > :28:54.all wrong. That is the point. There were six schools, four that were
:28:55. > :28:57.academies and two under local authority educational control. In
:28:58. > :29:00.those six schools they have felt there was enough intimidation of
:29:01. > :29:04.governors, of the head teachers, and of things happening and practice
:29:05. > :29:09.happening in those schools that led them to believe there was a danger
:29:10. > :29:13.of those children in those schools being conditioned in a way that was
:29:14. > :29:18.not in line with how schools should operate. They are not faith schools.
:29:19. > :29:21.If they wanted to be faith schools they should have applied for faith
:29:22. > :29:25.schools. There are special checks over faith schools. They did not
:29:26. > :29:30.have this. This is organising it through the back door. It was right
:29:31. > :29:33.to send Ofsted in. It's right Ofsted made their decision. There was a
:29:34. > :29:37.problem, extremism. There was a problem in these schools am we have
:29:38. > :29:40.have to stand by it. No matter what you say about those schools those
:29:41. > :29:42.letters from 200 parents show many, many people out there were very
:29:43. > :30:03.worried. We were right to act. good argument to just get rid of
:30:04. > :30:09.faith schools altogether? I have a problem with the fact that
:30:10. > :30:14.Ofsted went into Park View School two years ago and found it to be
:30:15. > :30:16.outstanding and inclusive, and now they are finding it inadequate for
:30:17. > :30:24.reasons of inclusion and the potential extremism. You don't think
:30:25. > :30:27.things can change in two years. I think Ofsted is being used as a
:30:28. > :30:30.political football by Michael Gove. They go in and do what they are told
:30:31. > :30:35.by Michael Gove. I would also like to observe that the whole system has
:30:36. > :30:40.been set up such that unelected, unaccountable trusts now run these
:30:41. > :30:48.schools, if they are academies. It is a recipe for corruption, cronyism
:30:49. > :30:51.and Watt two of them are local authority schools, but Park View
:30:52. > :30:55.Educational Trust now runs three schools. It is basically controlled
:30:56. > :31:00.by four people who, when one of them will leave, they will appoint their
:31:01. > :31:04.own replacement. It is a corrupt system, it is corruptible. We need
:31:05. > :31:08.to change it and bring local authorities back into the move and
:31:09. > :31:14.make schools accountable once more. APPLAUSE
:31:15. > :31:20.. I am not sure local authorities are
:31:21. > :31:23.necessarily the answer. I am open to that suggestion. The local
:31:24. > :31:26.authorities failed in this particular case to pick up and deal
:31:27. > :31:31.with the problems identified. But they have no power any more, having
:31:32. > :31:35.been taken out of the loop by Michael Gove and your government. I
:31:36. > :31:42.think there should be some sort of local accountability. The situation
:31:43. > :31:45.here is that the children in this area have been failed, abysmally.
:31:46. > :31:50.They have been failed by the governors, by the school, the local
:31:51. > :31:56.authority, and actually the system, to a degree. I think one of the
:31:57. > :31:59.problems is that Michael Gove's plan was that any school that had an
:32:00. > :32:03.outstanding report would automatically not be inspected for
:32:04. > :32:08.five years, and a good report would mean no inspection for three years.
:32:09. > :32:12.That is Paton three rubbish. What needs to happen is clearly these
:32:13. > :32:18.children, all children in this country, if the tax involved in
:32:19. > :32:22.funding their education, they are entitled to a full curriculum and
:32:23. > :32:26.they should not be excluded. There should be no segregation. There are
:32:27. > :32:31.so many problems that have come out of this. I have the Ofsted letter
:32:32. > :32:36.here and it is packed with problems. It showed that staff were
:32:37. > :32:39.marginalised and forced out. So many different things happened. But the
:32:40. > :32:45.safeguarding issue that you were not happy to identify, it seems to me
:32:46. > :32:49.that what it said in this letter is that pupils, nobody felt pupils were
:32:50. > :32:56.safe from the risk of radicalisation. What schools are
:32:57. > :33:01.for, surely, is for children to be prepared for the reality of life and
:33:02. > :33:06.work in our society. And it seems highly likely that the children in
:33:07. > :33:11.Birmingham, and this very small area, the five schools that have
:33:12. > :33:16.been identified, four of which might have their funding taken away, if
:33:17. > :33:24.that was to happen, we would have 3000 pupils in an area that is in a
:33:25. > :33:31.two mile corridor of one mile whip. Where would those children go to
:33:32. > :33:35.school? This is not actually a new problem. The idea of schools
:33:36. > :33:39.teaching dangerous ideas was brought up when we first introduced
:33:40. > :33:42.education for everyone, and we had a debate about whether they should
:33:43. > :33:45.learn the state religion of Anglicanism, or the basics of each
:33:46. > :33:49.faith and freedom to choose. Since then, we have had a system to check
:33:50. > :33:54.and make sure they are not being indoctrinated. And the system will
:33:55. > :33:57.work if it is allowed to work. If we have people getting hysterical and
:33:58. > :34:00.worried, it will not be allowed to work and to do the job it was made
:34:01. > :34:06.to do, which is to prevent our schools being destroyed by
:34:07. > :34:15.extremists. I have an ancillary question. Michael Gove has spoken
:34:16. > :34:20.about teaching British values in schools. Do these really exist? This
:34:21. > :34:30.goes to the heart of what extremism may be and what Tisch values may be.
:34:31. > :34:33.-- British values. I would like to answer the first question of whether
:34:34. > :34:37.Michael Gove's spot checks will do the job. I completely agree that we
:34:38. > :34:41.have had over 100 years of being able to run schools in a way where
:34:42. > :34:45.faith may be taught but nobody is indoctrinated. Of course, that
:34:46. > :34:49.should be a fundamental principle and the British value of the way we
:34:50. > :34:53.run education. We all want to know not only that our own children but
:34:54. > :34:56.our nephews and nieces and the children of everybody in the street
:34:57. > :35:01.and town where we live are getting the best possible education that we
:35:02. > :35:06.are all paying for. My anxiety is that Michael Gove's policy has
:35:07. > :35:10.basically meant, by creating these free schools and encouraging so many
:35:11. > :35:14.to become academies, you now have a large number of schools in the
:35:15. > :35:17.country for whom there is nobody to go to if you are complaining about
:35:18. > :35:23.the headteacher and the governors. The only person you can go to his
:35:24. > :35:24.Michael Gove. And I don't think you can run 4000 schools from a desk in
:35:25. > :35:32.Whitehall. APPLAUSE
:35:33. > :35:40.. And Ian just says, and you all
:35:41. > :35:45.applauded, but Ian said that we were right to act. Yes, it was good that
:35:46. > :35:47.some action was eventually taken but the Department for Education,
:35:48. > :35:52.Michael Gove and his team were informed of this in 2010 and did
:35:53. > :35:55.nothing for years. The reason we have ended up having this are
:35:56. > :36:00.unhelpful row about whether extremism is involved is because
:36:01. > :36:04.Michael Gove and Theresa May had a battle between each other which went
:36:05. > :36:07.on in an unseemly way for weeks and weeks, and neither of them took
:36:08. > :36:15.action when it should probably have been done. Of course there should be
:36:16. > :36:19.a system of local accountability, because local people, on the whole,
:36:20. > :36:24.will have a better idea. That is why I believe you should have in every
:36:25. > :36:28.area a director of school standards, who makes sure, as that gentleman
:36:29. > :36:32.says over there, that the fundamental British value, that it
:36:33. > :36:36.is not wrong to be devout, Conservative, to have Conservative
:36:37. > :36:40.views, but it is wrong to separate girls and boys in class, to put
:36:41. > :36:46.girls at the back of the class, or to treat girls -- to treat girls
:36:47. > :36:50.differently in school. Why'd you call it an unhealthy row? It is
:36:51. > :36:57.unhealthy to have one member of Cabinet briefing against another.
:36:58. > :37:08.You wanted Salma Yaqoob to be quiet while you were speaking. You should
:37:09. > :37:11.offer the same courtesy to others. In the 1980s, my sister was a
:37:12. > :37:14.teacher at a comp and seven Birmingham and one of the main
:37:15. > :37:20.problems was that Muslim boys did not want to be taught by females.
:37:21. > :37:24.The girls were removed from class, not allowed to do dancing, swimming
:37:25. > :37:29.or any of those things. This has been going on for a long time. We
:37:30. > :37:37.have not acted much over it. It is perfectly reasonable to try to take
:37:38. > :37:41.some action now. I am actually against any faith school being
:37:42. > :37:46.funded by taxpayers money. I am not here to advocate for more faith in
:37:47. > :37:50.schools. For example, there is a Jewish orthodox school in Stamford
:37:51. > :37:54.Hill. What would you say to the fact that Ofsted inspectors, female
:37:55. > :37:57.inspectors, are told they have to cover themselves, not allowed to
:37:58. > :38:02.wear colours, especially red, and yet they are funded by the state? A
:38:03. > :38:05.Catholic school had a successful applicant to take over as head
:38:06. > :38:09.teacher and was told, because you are not married and are in a
:38:10. > :38:12.relationship, you cannot be the headteacher. If they are privately
:38:13. > :38:18.funded, fine, have your religious views, but do not impose them. All
:38:19. > :38:21.schools in this country, whether privately or publicly funded, need
:38:22. > :38:27.to operate at the same set of standards because that is about one
:38:28. > :38:32.of the British values we have. But that is not happening. We should be
:38:33. > :38:35.treated equally under the law. Our education system, privately or
:38:36. > :38:40.publicly funded, should enhance people's ability to prosper. These
:38:41. > :38:46.things were not happening in Birmingham, but they are happening
:38:47. > :38:51.in other faith schools. The man in the third row from the back. On the
:38:52. > :38:58.point about how effective Ofsted can be, I think in general it does work,
:38:59. > :39:02.but when there is this culture of fear, it is an extreme case. A story
:39:03. > :39:06.has come out about someone wanting to approach Ofsted but being so
:39:07. > :39:10.scared they had to do it in a supermarket car park. Something is
:39:11. > :39:14.clearly wrong with that system of governance. Chris, while it is fun
:39:15. > :39:16.to lash out at the coalition, surely it is the Labour run City Council
:39:17. > :39:22.who should have it is the Labour run City Council
:39:23. > :39:32.long time ago. Let's come to it is the Labour run City Council
:39:33. > :39:39.illuminated by the voters of Newark. Is the result of the Newark
:39:40. > :39:47.by-election the end of the Lib Dems? Who
:39:48. > :39:52.by-election the end of the Lib Dems? Chris Bryant. Look, they did very
:39:53. > :39:58.poorly. They didn't even come fourth or fifth, but six, behind the
:39:59. > :40:02.candidate standing about the closure of the Newark hospital. It was
:40:03. > :40:05.interesting that although David Cameron visited the constituency
:40:06. > :40:09.four times in the by-election, he did not visit the hospital where he
:40:10. > :40:16.closed the Accident Emergency in 2011, and we know why. It was
:40:17. > :40:20.interesting in Newark because historically a lot of people have
:40:21. > :40:25.voted Liberal, rather than Liberal Democrat, in Newark. I met a lot of
:40:26. > :40:29.them who were now going to vote Labour. I met some who were going to
:40:30. > :40:32.vote UKIP, actually. I think many of them felt let town because they felt
:40:33. > :40:38.vote UKIP, actually. I think many of Democrat all those years, they were
:40:39. > :40:43.voting for a fundamentally different style of doing politics. And in the
:40:44. > :40:47.end, the classic instance that was brought up time and again was
:40:48. > :40:53.tuition fees. The party went into the last general election
:40:54. > :40:56.tuition fees. The party went into troubled them. We now know
:40:57. > :40:57.tuition fees. The party went into senior figures in Nick Clegg's team
:40:58. > :40:59.knew senior figures in Nick Clegg's team
:41:00. > :41:00.scrapping Jewish and fees. senior figures in Nick Clegg's team
:41:01. > :41:20.when people start to go, frankly, so you would not be able to go into
:41:21. > :41:26.coalition with them at the next election because he would not be
:41:27. > :41:30.able to trust them? I love you, David. In my mind, the real
:41:31. > :41:34.opponents are not the Liberal Democrats. The real opponent is over
:41:35. > :41:38.there, the Conservatives, the people who have made this country a place
:41:39. > :41:47.where 2 million people need food bank hand-outs. It is not fast as
:41:48. > :41:52.other parties to talk about the Liberals. I will leave Tessa to talk
:41:53. > :41:56.about her own party. If you don't want to talk about it, don't. But
:41:57. > :42:04.you have to answer the question. You can't just talk about Tory party
:42:05. > :42:11.policy. You could defend them! I am going to defend them now. But let me
:42:12. > :42:19.get to that at the end, if you don't mind. I will not go on as long as
:42:20. > :42:24.Chris. I want to say very simply that we won the by-election, and I
:42:25. > :42:27.have to say we were told by lots of people that UKIP would sweep us away
:42:28. > :42:33.and this would be a major success for UKIP. We won by a larger amount.
:42:34. > :42:40.I am enormously pleased because a huge amount of effort went into it.
:42:41. > :42:43.You ran the Labour campaign and it is one of the worst results of any
:42:44. > :42:47.by-election Labour has fought. You went Aqua 's. You don't half talk
:42:48. > :43:01.rubbish sometimes. I delivered leaflets in the
:43:02. > :43:07.constituency because I wanted my candidate to win. You are both
:43:08. > :43:14.creating space for the Liberal Democrats. Stop it! You for they
:43:15. > :43:24.campaign and Labour went Aqua 's. -- they went backwards. You are a
:43:25. > :43:29.walking advert for UKIP. One thing is for sure, there will not be a
:43:30. > :43:32.coalition after the election between us! A tough decision was taken by
:43:33. > :43:37.the Liberals to join the coalition at the beginning. They did it, as my
:43:38. > :43:40.party did, for the sake of the country, to try to make sure we got
:43:41. > :43:46.the deficit down and the economy going. All that I can say is that,
:43:47. > :43:50.yes, the Liberals have taken a pretty heavy hit for some of that.
:43:51. > :43:55.But I think and hope, I don't know and I still want to win in the seats
:43:56. > :44:00.in which they oppose us, but I will say this for our coalition
:44:01. > :44:04.colleagues. I think people will look back and say, we took a disastrous
:44:05. > :44:08.economy that had crashed and got it moving again, got people going back
:44:09. > :44:11.to work. Things are not perfect but they are much better than they
:44:12. > :44:16.were. Tough decisions were taken and they played their part in that. I
:44:17. > :44:28.want a Conservative government elected, but I think they should
:44:29. > :44:35.take some credit. Douglas Alex -- Danny Alexander. There was an away
:44:36. > :44:39.day he didn't invite you to. I don't remember him saying this. What? I
:44:40. > :44:44.saw something on a website earlier - You could become the largest party
:44:45. > :44:50.in British politics by 2025? You never know. That is very optimistic
:44:51. > :44:55.view, I suspect. Over optimistic, do you think? Possibly, yes. Is it the
:44:56. > :45:03.end of you I don't think so at all, actually. I think, very gallant of
:45:04. > :45:08.you to say we have taken a hit. No question of that, for going into
:45:09. > :45:13.coalition with the party who I have spent most of my political life
:45:14. > :45:16.opposing, I'm afraid much we did that for the good of the country.
:45:17. > :45:20.Had to do that. I would just remind you that Liberals all over the place
:45:21. > :45:25.have said we will work with people. We do. We worked across councils we
:45:26. > :45:30.have worked with both parties. If we got to the point, after the election
:45:31. > :45:34.where we said, no, sorry, which don't want to have power. Who are
:45:35. > :45:41.the Liberals that are abandoning you in places like Newark? Well, Newark
:45:42. > :45:46.was not one of our top hotspots, I have to say. European elections? If
:45:47. > :45:52.you look at what happened in the council elections... Yes, where we
:45:53. > :46:01.have MPs, actually we did rather well. If you take Nick Clegg's
:46:02. > :46:06.constituency, he got 38%, everybody else got lower. We bring our own
:46:07. > :46:09.particular brand of, I think, care to the coalition. That... We have
:46:10. > :46:14.made absolutely certain there are things we have stopped and things we
:46:15. > :46:20.have done. I put into the frame the stuff about tax thresh holds. That -
:46:21. > :46:23.that was something that Mr Cameron said, right up prior to the
:46:24. > :46:29.election, it was absolutely mad - Can I ask you a question. No. Ask
:46:30. > :46:34.you a little question. No, you can't. I want to bring that man in
:46:35. > :46:41.there. He has had his hand up for so long it will fall I think off. , in
:46:42. > :46:45.answer to the person's question, I don't care if it is the end to the
:46:46. > :46:50.Liberal Democrats, good riddance to you for going into coalition with
:46:51. > :46:52.people like Iain Duncan Smith who is systemically taking down public
:46:53. > :46:56.services in this country and destroying people's lives. I would
:46:57. > :47:01.say this. Just as a last point. One more point. That if people really
:47:02. > :47:06.care about politics in this country, really care, then they should turn
:47:07. > :47:10.up in London, on Saturday 21st June with the People's Assembly against
:47:11. > :47:14.Austerity and show the political elite and the political class, that
:47:15. > :47:18.are sat around that table, there is more to life than your grubby
:47:19. > :47:24.politics and and your austerity. All right. Ian Hislop. I have to say, I
:47:25. > :47:28.mean the fate of the Liberals will be up to the electorate. The reason
:47:29. > :47:33.there was a coalition was because nobody won. Not the people you
:47:34. > :47:38.support, not him. There was an undecided vote. There had to be a
:47:39. > :47:42.coalition. The Liberals have been. They have been unpopular because
:47:43. > :47:46.they were largely a protest vote. The protest vote was, up until the
:47:47. > :47:51.Newark by-election taken over by UKIP. I think, in the words of the
:47:52. > :47:56.Guardian we have seen "peak UKIP" it may be be that protest vote people
:47:57. > :48:02.have thought, we have done that vote. They have two policies. We
:48:03. > :48:06.know what they are. They keep telling us - drink more, smoke. Not
:48:07. > :48:12.true! Immigration and leave Europe. You can't really have them in as a
:48:13. > :48:16.government. You need people with other policies. I have a feeling
:48:17. > :48:19.UKIP's protest vote will decline. Come the next election, whatever
:48:20. > :48:25.happens, the Liberals will recover somewhat. The one slight worry is
:48:26. > :48:30.that they will try one of those other botched coups we will end up
:48:31. > :48:37.with someone you have have never heard of by mistake as leader when
:48:38. > :48:44.Nick Clegg leaves. Just a warning! Do you feel part of the Lib Dems
:48:45. > :48:51.decline is their stance on Europe claiming to be the party of "in"
:48:52. > :48:55.maybe people don't want that? People in this country, 13 million people,
:48:56. > :49:00.who are now below the poverty line. One million people in one of the
:49:01. > :49:05.richest countries in the world face the indignity of relying on food
:49:06. > :49:11.banks. My full-time job is mental health. I have seen how people have
:49:12. > :49:14.become suicidal. I have had to counsel people who lost their loved
:49:15. > :49:18.ones who said they didn't want to be a burden on their own families
:49:19. > :49:22.because the support has been taken away. These are real issues. It has
:49:23. > :49:31.been done in the name of austerity. We had this drive of people being
:49:32. > :49:36.called "scroungers" half the people on benefits are pensioners - You
:49:37. > :49:45.answer your own questions. Yes. The wages are not paying enough. Did you
:49:46. > :49:49.say 30 million - 13 million. I'm sitting next to Iain Duncan Smith
:49:50. > :49:56.who quite happily labels the poor people as "scroungers." I have never
:49:57. > :50:03.labelled them as scroungers. When you claim ?39 for a breakfast -
:50:04. > :50:10.Honestly - You have taken taxpayers' money that is what I call
:50:11. > :50:16.scroungers. What a load of nonsense. OK. You had a chance to answer the
:50:17. > :50:19.question in point. You have supported Iain Duncan Smith's
:50:20. > :50:23.bedroom tax. Your party has in parliament. You voted for it every
:50:24. > :50:31.single time. Now you have said you in the general election you will
:50:32. > :50:35.have a manifesto pledge to get rid of the bedroom tax. Can you help us
:50:36. > :50:39.get rid of it now? Absolutely. You will. I vote with the Government
:50:40. > :50:42.because I'm a loyal member of the Government. If it comes to
:50:43. > :50:45.something... Forgive me, there are a number of changes that we need to
:50:46. > :50:49.make. There are certain things - take, for example, in my area -
:50:50. > :50:56.Bedroom tax. Will you vote against it? You introduced the same thing
:50:57. > :51:00.when you were in power - That is a lie. You introduced the fact that
:51:01. > :51:04.people could not have spare room for private-sector - We did not do it
:51:05. > :51:11.respect row spectively, which is what you did. That is the cruelty.
:51:12. > :51:16.It was first introduced in 1989 by a Conservative Government. You
:51:17. > :51:18.introduced. People are paying ?14 a week. Rewriting of history.
:51:19. > :51:22.introduced. People are paying ?14 a entitled to our manifesto as we
:51:23. > :51:25.approach the next general election. What we have
:51:26. > :51:26.approach the next general election. problem somebody, I can't remember
:51:27. > :51:30.which one of you, sorry, problem somebody, I can't remember
:51:31. > :51:33.the fact about tuition problem somebody, I can't remember
:51:34. > :51:37.reality is, if we had lot are in favour of tuition fees,
:51:38. > :51:41.you lot are in favour of tuition lot are in favour of tuition fees,
:51:42. > :51:48.fees, we weren't going to form the whole Government
:51:49. > :51:51.fees, we weren't going to form the that. We have
:51:52. > :51:58.fees, we weren't going to form the realistic. Want rid of the bedroom
:51:59. > :52:02.tax next year, you could vote to get rid of it. Let's take another
:52:03. > :52:09.question. I hope it's not on the bedroom tax. It's from Robert Loads.
:52:10. > :52:13.It's Jermaine to this community. A fascinating Should parents point. Be
:52:14. > :52:18.arrested because their children are overweight? The story behind this.
:52:19. > :52:22.We can't name, and musn't name the parents or the child. This is an
:52:23. > :52:30.arrest that was made here in King's Lynn a couple of months back of two
:52:31. > :52:37.parents on the grounds that their child, five foot high, 11 years old,
:52:38. > :52:38.weighed 15 stone. The parents were arrested for child
:52:39. > :52:42.weighed 15 stone. The parents were cruelty. Ian Hislop is it right to
:52:43. > :52:46.arrest parents because their child is overweight? The police said it
:52:47. > :52:50.was a joint examiner countries with social services and it was
:52:51. > :52:55.absolutely last resort. I don't know the circumstances of the case. It's
:52:56. > :53:00.horrific. The I thought the situation was summed up by one
:53:01. > :53:06.detail they said - to encourage him to do examiner countries he should
:53:07. > :53:16.play more games on his Wii machine. More games on a screen. The there
:53:17. > :53:21.was a piece of fear of machines and more of the screen. It will hit the
:53:22. > :53:25.health service and mental health. Other problem, last time I was on
:53:26. > :53:29.this show, there was an argument about attempting to regulate the
:53:30. > :53:34.manufacturer's of the fizzy drinks, as we are meant to call them, and
:53:35. > :53:39.those things with a far too much sugar. They have fantastic lobbying
:53:40. > :53:42.access to this government. They had fantastic lobbying access to the
:53:43. > :53:47.last Government. The Government never doing anything. This morning
:53:48. > :53:51.they said, we have to stop this and reduce the sugar levels in these
:53:52. > :53:54.things. That is the action the Government should take. The police
:53:55. > :53:57.ariesing two parents because their child is deemed to be overweight? I
:53:58. > :54:02.don't know the exact circumstances. They said they did it as a measure
:54:03. > :54:05.of absolute last resort. Maybe that was justified. They have been
:54:06. > :54:08.released on bail, haven't been charged. Iain Duncan Smith, what do
:54:09. > :54:12.you think of that. We haven't got much time? As I understand it, again
:54:13. > :54:15.it was a matter of last resort. It was in conjunction with social
:54:16. > :54:20.services that - clearly what was happening, the parents were simply
:54:21. > :54:24.not doing what they (inaudible) I don't know what their problem was. I
:54:25. > :54:28.don't know if there was difficulties at home. The health of the child was
:54:29. > :54:32.obviously clearly deteriorating. I guess, as a last resort, you have to
:54:33. > :54:36.have that process that says you need to step in at some foint protect the
:54:37. > :54:40.child. You would step in to protect the child if you thought it was
:54:41. > :54:47.being abused in foreway. You could argue at this point, it was so so
:54:48. > :54:53.excessive, social services allowed the police to step in to stop the
:54:54. > :54:56.police. The truth is, I think there was probably reason for this. I
:54:57. > :55:04.would support it in that case. We have an. Epidemic of obesity. I
:55:05. > :55:09.accept in this Government we have to do something, like Ian said, doing
:55:10. > :55:13.something about fizzy drinks and getting people to do more examiner
:55:14. > :55:18.countries and facing up to the fact we are overweight Assad nation. One
:55:19. > :55:21.or two of our kids is now obese. Arresting parents I don't think
:55:22. > :55:25.necessarily is the answer. It sounds in this particular case, I don't
:55:26. > :55:29.know the full details of, it seems to my mind you want to make sure the
:55:30. > :55:33.child is protected and well taken care of and educate the parents.
:55:34. > :55:38.There is a first responsibility is on on us and our families. I look at
:55:39. > :55:41.the example of smoking. We know that smoking is bad. The Government has
:55:42. > :55:46.taken steps, for example, not allowing it in public spaces, that
:55:47. > :55:51.has reduced the illnesses which are linked to smoking. You don't arrest
:55:52. > :55:56.parents whose children smoke? Exactly. This Government - we want
:55:57. > :56:03.to do something about it, it is so in awe of the lobbyists when, for
:56:04. > :56:08.example, our children have breakfasts with 10 spoons of sugar
:56:09. > :56:15.it's hard for parents to take full responsibility when Government
:56:16. > :56:22.doesn't do its bit because of the - No. There is plenty of information
:56:23. > :56:27.about nutrition these days. I do believe that the parents should be
:56:28. > :56:35.held It can responsible. Become a police matter? Is Absolutely. All
:56:36. > :56:42.right. You have 30 seconds each. As a last resort the police have to
:56:43. > :56:47.become involved. At one point he was a 12 stone, and an 8 stone child.
:56:48. > :56:50.Something could perhaps have been done earlier. The other thing I
:56:51. > :56:55.would say, free school meals for young children and generally, where
:56:56. > :56:58.we put kitchens into schools they should be double use and go back to
:56:59. > :57:03.teaching young people properly how to prepare a good wholesome
:57:04. > :57:07.nutritions meal. I agree the other thing is food labelling. There is no
:57:08. > :57:11.shortage of information. I will have to stop you. The single most
:57:12. > :57:14.important thing is the protection of the child. That should be paramount
:57:15. > :57:23.over any other consideration. I hope that is what happened in this
:57:24. > :57:35.situation am we do have an epidemic of obesity and die beet -- diabetes.
:57:36. > :57:38.So many local authorities are closing swimming pools, sport
:57:39. > :57:41.centres and youth centres all the places where people might engage in
:57:42. > :57:45.sport. That will be counter productive. The police knocking on
:57:46. > :57:49.your door and arresting mother and father, that is all right? You know,
:57:50. > :57:52.none of us knows the details of what happened - You know that happened?
:57:53. > :57:58.We know that happened. We don't know what led to that moment. I'm very
:57:59. > :58:02.reluctant to criticise the police in that We have situation. To stop. Our
:58:03. > :58:03.time is up. Next week there isn't a Question Time because of the World
:58:04. > :58:15.Cup. It's Japan against Greece. Really? You laughed, I didn't. I
:58:16. > :58:21.didn't laugh. It's a week off! After that we are back in Wolverhampton
:58:22. > :58:28.the following week and Croydon. If you would like to come to
:58:29. > :58:29.Wolverhampton or Croydon the address is on the screen.
:58:30. > :58:33.Wolverhampton or Croydon the address is on the screen. And the telephone
:58:34. > :58:38.number, I always forget unless I read it out: I'm being attacked by a
:58:39. > :58:42.fly. So are you now. My thanks to the panel here and all of you who
:58:43. > :58:44.came here to King's Lynn to take part. From the Corn Exchange, until
:58:45. > :59:05.Thursday week, good night. There is Question Time Extra Time on
:59:06. > :59:11.BBC Radio 5 Live now. Next on BBC One, This Week.