:00:00. > :00:19.Tonight we are in Croydon and welcome to Question Time.
:00:20. > :00:23.Good evening to you home. Here in our audience, an audience that will
:00:24. > :00:29.be putting questions as yet unknown to our panel. Our panel tonight,
:00:30. > :00:32.Labour's former Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, Liberal Democrat Business
:00:33. > :00:36.Minister, Jo Swinson, Conservative chairman of the Select Committee on
:00:37. > :00:41.public administration, Bernard Jenkin, Christine Blower, General
:00:42. > :00:45.Secretary of the National Union of Teachers, and Mail on Sunday
:00:46. > :00:51.columnist Peter Hitchens, we are grateful to him for coming in at
:00:52. > :00:58.short notice to replace the Daily Mail editor, who is indisposed.
:00:59. > :01:11.APPLAUSE Remember, as ever, you can join in
:01:12. > :01:17.this debate by text or Twitter: Let's have our first question
:01:18. > :01:25.tonight please. Is the NUT strike action justifiable as it will risk
:01:26. > :01:33.parents lives, hold back education and damage the profession. The NUP
:01:34. > :01:37.strike, planned next week, is it justifiable? Bernard Jenkin. This is
:01:38. > :01:42.really a dispute about pensions. There've been plenty of public
:01:43. > :01:47.sector employees who have had their pensions changed because the
:01:48. > :01:51.pensions were very generous compared to what you can now get in the
:01:52. > :01:55.private sector. The police can't go on strike. The armed forces can't go
:01:56. > :01:59.on strike. I don't think it is right that teachers go on strike. What
:02:00. > :02:04.about the inconvenience it causes to others, not just disrupting the
:02:05. > :02:08.children's education, but to the parents who've their working lives
:02:09. > :02:13.disrupted and possibly affecting their income tax? No, it is not
:02:14. > :02:17.right. It is an extraordinary thing. There are so teaching associations
:02:18. > :02:22.who don't agree with strikes. They are not going on strike. It is only
:02:23. > :02:27.the NUP that is organising a strike. I think it is unfortunate that a
:02:28. > :02:32.profession as important as teaching is infected with this kind of
:02:33. > :02:40.old-fashioned 1960s adversarial Labour trade union approach to
:02:41. > :02:42.resolving disputes. APPLAUSE
:02:43. > :02:47.Straight to a member of the audience there. Do you not think that
:02:48. > :02:52.teachers have a point when pay has been cut in real terms over the last
:02:53. > :02:58.four years? I'm a secondary school teacher in South London. I would be
:02:59. > :03:02.happy to have my pay increases index linked to MPs' pay increases who I
:03:03. > :03:05.gather are getting 11% next year. No, we are not.
:03:06. > :03:12.APPLAUSE Are you going on strike on Thursday?
:03:13. > :03:18.I beg your pardon? Are you going on strike on Thursday? I'm not. I'm not
:03:19. > :03:25.a member of the NUT, the but I would if it actioned it. My union hasn't
:03:26. > :03:28.balloted yet. The Association of Teachers and Lecturers. Christine
:03:29. > :03:32.Blower, cue be a recruiting Sergeant for him. Strike action isn't the
:03:33. > :03:36.only thing that the National Union of Teachers is doing. We have for a
:03:37. > :03:40.good number of months been running a stand up for education campaign.
:03:41. > :03:45.Members have been out on Saturdays and the weekend in town centres and
:03:46. > :03:49.city centres, engaging parents, governors and young people to
:03:50. > :03:53.explain why we think that very many elements of Government policy on
:03:54. > :03:58.education are wrong. Also on June 10th, teachers covered for each
:03:59. > :04:01.other. In some cases the head teachers allowed them to come to
:04:02. > :04:08.London and lobby MPs. We lobbied 156. That's about a quarter of all
:04:09. > :04:16.the MPs in the House. Including me. Bernard was also lobbied by two NUU
:04:17. > :04:20.members. We are also organising, plagiarising this, Question Times up
:04:21. > :04:22.and down the country, inviting prospective parliamentary
:04:23. > :04:27.candidates... But you are going on strike. That's what the question is
:04:28. > :04:31.about. You are going on strike, which is what the questioner says,
:04:32. > :04:37.it affects parents and children. But I want you to know that it is not
:04:38. > :04:41.the only thing we are doing. Yes, next week we have called strike
:04:42. > :04:42.action. We will be the only teachers' union on strike, but we'll
:04:43. > :04:55.be on strike with Unison, the Unite. It is quite broad. It is not
:04:56. > :05:00.only about pensions but pay. Significantly, it is about workload.
:05:01. > :05:05.Michael will shore says that at the end of the fifth year of teaching,
:05:06. > :05:10.only two out of every five teachers who starts in the profession is
:05:11. > :05:14.still there. That's at least in part because at the moment teachers are
:05:15. > :05:18.working 60-hour weeks. They are not spending that time writing exciting
:05:19. > :05:23.lesson plans and doing all the things they want to do. It is very
:05:24. > :05:26.largely to do with the dead hand of an accountability regime. Our
:05:27. > :05:31.dispute with Government is not just about pay. Not just about pensions.
:05:32. > :05:36.It is also about that. The fact is that we are heading towards the
:05:37. > :05:41.place where we will not be able to recruit enough teachers unless we
:05:42. > :05:45.get the pay right but also critically we get the conditions
:05:46. > :05:51.right. So it is across the board for all of those things.
:05:52. > :05:56.APPLAUSE Peter Hitchens? The right to strike
:05:57. > :06:02.is an incredibly valuable part of any free society. I'm very much in
:06:03. > :06:03.favour of it being maintained, but the...
:06:04. > :06:07.APPLAUSE Those who decide when to wield it
:06:08. > :06:11.have to be careful when at the do soft. It simply isn't the case that
:06:12. > :06:15.you can do it when you feel like it or to pursue a political campaign.
:06:16. > :06:17.It must u feel like it or to pursue a political campaign. It must only
:06:18. > :06:20.be done - it is almost a nuclear option. It's the thing that you
:06:21. > :06:22.actually do eventually when you really have no alternative. I
:06:23. > :06:25.honestly don't believe you have no alternative.
:06:26. > :06:30.The other thing I might point out to Christine Blower is. This the main
:06:31. > :06:34.beneficiary of your strike is Michael Gove, a man I believe is a
:06:35. > :06:35.much overrated Education Secretary...
:06:36. > :06:38.APPLAUSE He will make a great deal of the
:06:39. > :06:43.fact that you are opposing him and will be delighted to the fact that
:06:44. > :06:47.you are publicly opposing him. He will be able to point to the huge
:06:48. > :06:50.disruption to parents. Anyone in the public sector, when they strike, it
:06:51. > :06:55.is not against the Government but against the public. I don't think
:06:56. > :06:57.there is a more futile act that the union could undertake.
:06:58. > :07:01.APPLAUSE You on the left there. I think I
:07:02. > :07:04.agree with your point. If anyone should have a voice it is teachers
:07:05. > :07:09.to. But surely if you are having an issue with the Government, that
:07:10. > :07:12.shouldn't come to the detriment of pupils. We are trying as hard as you
:07:13. > :07:16.do. We want you to succeed, to do well, but if you are not there, we
:07:17. > :07:21.cannot help you and you cannot help us. Surely there must be another way
:07:22. > :07:26.over strike action that you can make yourself more improved but not at
:07:27. > :07:29.the cost of the pupils. APPLAUSE
:07:30. > :07:33.Jo Swinson? I have to say, that young woman there put pit incredibly
:07:34. > :07:36.eloquently. ORCEDWHITE Jo Swinson? I have to say, that young woman there
:07:37. > :07:40.put pit incredibly eloquently -- put it eloquently. Christine is right
:07:41. > :07:48.that trade unions do a lot of good in our society. When we focus on the
:07:49. > :07:52.ballot we are focusing on the part that the unions do, they do an
:07:53. > :07:58.important roar in resolving disputes, and training. The other
:07:59. > :08:02.things that trade unions do are more effective for achieving goals. It
:08:03. > :08:05.has been an incredibly difficult four years. The economic crisis has
:08:06. > :08:08.affected everybody. I understand that your members, Christine, the
:08:09. > :08:13.gentleman in the audience and so on, people have been struggling with
:08:14. > :08:17.very difficult pay in times of austerity. We've been trying to do
:08:18. > :08:20.what we can as the Government to We've been trying to do what we can
:08:21. > :08:23.as the Government to make things better - cutting taxes for people on
:08:24. > :08:25.low earnings. But it is incredibly difficult. But that's the case for
:08:26. > :08:29.people in the public sector. For people in the private sector as
:08:30. > :08:32.well. As that young woman said, there is ultimately a very important
:08:33. > :08:36.job still to be done in educating the next generation. I think it is
:08:37. > :08:41.incredibly regrettable that this is going to be happening. Happening. I
:08:42. > :08:46.hope it is just one day and will be able to be minimised in terms of the
:08:47. > :08:51.disruption of pupils and parents of younger pupils. I hope that the NUT
:08:52. > :08:54.can get round the table and have discussions constructively with the
:08:55. > :08:59.Government to find resolutions to these issues. The man up there with
:09:00. > :09:03.the beard and the T-shirt. I just think it is really important to note
:09:04. > :09:11.that no teacher actually wants to go on strike. They all value their
:09:12. > :09:14.work. When Michael Gove repeatedly disvalues, doesn't credit
:09:15. > :09:18.professional opinion and advice, what else do you expect the teachers
:09:19. > :09:24.to do to have their voices heard? Let me come to Bernard Jenkin on
:09:25. > :09:28.that and then to you, Alan Johnson. I thought it was about pensions and
:09:29. > :09:34.pay but it is sounding a more and more political strike as I hear more
:09:35. > :09:39.and more being talked about. The stand up for education campaign. I
:09:40. > :09:44.looked at the leaflets. There was very little about improving literacy
:09:45. > :09:48.and numeracy in that campaign. That's not the style projected by
:09:49. > :09:50.the National Union of Teachers. I think trade crowns are important. It
:09:51. > :09:55.is important that they act in the interests of their members, but this
:09:56. > :10:01.strike is not right. What about the Michael Gove point? Make your point
:10:02. > :10:07.again. You said it's the only way of getting at Gove? Yes, he has
:10:08. > :10:10.repeatedly ignored all the advice on how to handle teaching in this
:10:11. > :10:14.country. I think you will find that's been said about virtually
:10:15. > :10:20.every Education Secretary for 20 years. But Michael Gove more so than
:10:21. > :10:25.anybody else. APPLAUSE
:10:26. > :10:30.Alan Johnson? Well, I would like to start where Peter started. The
:10:31. > :10:34.question was ever right to go on strike? And it is part of, an
:10:35. > :10:43.important part of a mature democracy. The question was is this
:10:44. > :10:49.strike justified in view of the disruption. I must have misheard it.
:10:50. > :10:52.It is a fundamental part of a healthy mature democracy and
:10:53. > :10:56.everyone someone is going on strike you condemn it. In terms of this
:10:57. > :11:00.dispute, the lady there is right. A union no longer takes strike action,
:11:01. > :11:04.if it ever did, without considering the pros and cons. For a start it
:11:05. > :11:08.hat to be balloted industrial action. You have to prove that
:11:09. > :11:10.you've got your members' support. In terms of what's happening at the
:11:11. > :11:16.moment to people's pay and conditions, there's a good argument
:11:17. > :11:19.for a stronger trade union movement in this country rather than a weaker
:11:20. > :11:24.one. APPLAUSE
:11:25. > :11:27.There is also a good argument about how restrained trade unions have
:11:28. > :11:31.been in this country. If you look at other countries that have been going
:11:32. > :11:35.through the austerity we've been. There's been a great deal of
:11:36. > :11:44.restraint. I understand this industrial action. Two principal
:11:45. > :11:52.reasons. Health workers... (Inaudible) Yes. The sky didn't fall
:11:53. > :11:55.in. The world didn't end. I think a union that balances their
:11:56. > :12:00.responsibility towards parents as well, and that's always, because you
:12:01. > :12:03.can turn public opinion against you. When you look at the fact that in
:12:04. > :12:07.the health service the recommendation of the pay review
:12:08. > :12:11.body, which has never ever been rejected before, was rejected by
:12:12. > :12:18.Jeremy Hunt. He said that health workers couldn't get a 1% pay
:12:19. > :12:24.increase if they were on the incremental scale. If you look at
:12:25. > :12:28.teaching and performance related pay introduced in schools, which is
:12:29. > :12:33.affecting your children, because the bureaucracy that goes with it, I
:12:34. > :12:37.guarantee that in five or ten years we won't hear more about
:12:38. > :12:40.performance-based pay. It is a phase I hope they are going through and
:12:41. > :12:44.we'll come out of the other end. These are big issues. They are
:12:45. > :12:48.taking one day's industrial action to draw attention to it and given
:12:49. > :12:51.all the frustrations they've faced, I think that's absolutely
:12:52. > :12:58.defensible. APPLAUSE
:12:59. > :13:02.Alan Johnson mentioned that you have to get your members on side. How
:13:03. > :13:08.many of 300,000 teachers voted for this
:13:09. > :13:12.strike action? We have two ballots, about 43% in one and less than that
:13:13. > :13:18.in the other. You don't know the numbers I didn't bring them. 43% of
:13:19. > :13:22.the 300,000? So under half voted for strike action and fewer in the
:13:23. > :13:26.second ballot? Yep. So it is not popular with the teachers then.
:13:27. > :13:30.Actually it is very pop larks because more of them take the
:13:31. > :13:34.action. A you have to have a legitimate ballot. More people take
:13:35. > :13:38.the action than vote. Just as more people are happy to see their MPs
:13:39. > :13:41.than ever vote for them. We have a legitimate ballot. We've complied
:13:42. > :13:45.with everything that the law requires us to comply with. The fact
:13:46. > :13:50.is that people are following the strike call, yes. On the performance
:13:51. > :13:57.related PayPoint, Alan is right. What's very interesting is that
:13:58. > :14:04.Dominic Comings, previous adviser to Michael Gove, is saying that
:14:05. > :14:09.performance related pay is wrong. Katherine Singh, who was chosen to
:14:10. > :14:14.come and speak at the Conservative Party conference about free schools,
:14:15. > :14:19.she is saying performance related pay, absolutely wrong. One issue of
:14:20. > :14:24.this dispute is that we believe this is the wrong pay system to have in
:14:25. > :14:29.schools. It links teachers' pay much too closely and America knitsically
:14:30. > :14:35.to student outcomes. Bernard Jenkin, you are nodding in agreement? I am
:14:36. > :14:41.sceptical. The whole public sector works on my committee and the way
:14:42. > :14:44.the public sector is rewarded. Most people work in the Civil Service
:14:45. > :14:48.because they believe in what they are doing. The reward they want is
:14:49. > :14:51.to want to work in a trusting environment. They want too be
:14:52. > :14:56.valued, supported and they want to work in an environment where when
:14:57. > :15:04.things go wrong they learn with their bosses and suborder that's in
:15:05. > :15:08.about what's gone wrong. To have this transactional relationship in
:15:09. > :15:12.such a vocation is a misunderstanding. It is rather the
:15:13. > :15:17.fashion that people have to be on performance related pay but people
:15:18. > :15:28.don't live in these relationships happily.
:15:29. > :15:31.the public sector at the moment. I liked everything Bernard Jenkins was
:15:32. > :15:34.saying, but none of that is how it feels on the receiving end in the
:15:35. > :15:39.public sector where jobs are being cut. Austerity, it's hard
:15:40. > :15:44.everywhere, but we are seeing the public sector being taken apart,
:15:45. > :15:48.dismembered piece by piece in education, in... Can I say very
:15:49. > :15:53.briefly in response to that lady - it doesn't feel that in the
:15:54. > :15:57.poorly-led schools and education. I'm not in schools, I'm just talking
:15:58. > :16:04.about the public sector. We need to think about how we want people to
:16:05. > :16:10.feel. What are you in fact? A local council employee. I was an
:16:11. > :16:14.industrial reporter during the great years of the incessant strikes in
:16:15. > :16:18.this country and saw many, many people using the nuclear option and
:16:19. > :16:22.almost invariably they destroyed the industries they claimed to be saving
:16:23. > :16:25.and it does not actually do any good. It's usually disastrous for
:16:26. > :16:31.the industry and Alan Johnson's industry, the Post Office, was
:16:32. > :16:35.almost ruined by strike action and has almost never recovered. Peter is
:16:36. > :16:39.going back to the days when he was industrial correspondent for the
:16:40. > :16:44.Socialist Worker and what happened every time we had a strike, we had a
:16:45. > :16:50.socialist worker say, spread the strike, don't resolve it, spread it.
:16:51. > :16:57.He is right about one thing, things have changed dramatically since the
:16:58. > :17:00.70s. When I was in my tank top and flares I said when we were in the
:17:01. > :17:09.Trade Union that is what we should have done. Certainly now, within
:17:10. > :17:12.people are closely regular gated, when unions are regulated more than
:17:13. > :17:17.anywhere else in the world, when you are getting to the stage to take
:17:18. > :17:22.strike action, it's very different to the days we remember in the 70s.
:17:23. > :17:29.Another question from Diane Squires, please? Is David Cameron a hero for
:17:30. > :17:37.standing up to Europe? Is David Cameron a hero for standing
:17:38. > :17:41.up to Europe? There were some answers there? Jean-Claude Juncker,
:17:42. > :17:47.of course, only two people voted against him. Alan Johnson? Is he a
:17:48. > :17:54.hero? Poor David. No, someone should buy him a book on the art of
:17:55. > :17:58.negotiation. I mean, the poor man. APPLAUSE
:17:59. > :18:02.Every time an MP, Tory MP is under threat of deselection, David writes
:18:03. > :18:09.the local party and they get deselected. He supported Maria
:18:10. > :18:13.Miller. He supported her and yew The Knew she was going to be gone. He
:18:14. > :18:18.was the only man who could unite Europe in fave of Juncker. He needed
:18:19. > :18:24.roughly four European Union countries with the right number of
:18:25. > :18:27.votes to block it and his approach was totally wrong and if people
:18:28. > :18:33.think he's a hero for that, they would have thought he was a hero
:18:34. > :18:37.back in December 2011 when he vetoed that directive. That went through.
:18:38. > :18:42.It went through. The veto meant absolutely nothing. I'm concerned
:18:43. > :18:48.about this because I'm pro-Europe and I tell you someone else who is
:18:49. > :18:52.as well - David Cameron. If you read Cameron's speech, his Bloomberg
:18:53. > :18:57.speech, where at the end, he put in a bit to please people like Bernard
:18:58. > :19:00.and his backbenchers, he made a very powerful case for Europe, one of the
:19:01. > :19:04.best arguments I've ever seen. The bit at the end wassen about what's
:19:05. > :19:07.right for this country, it's about what's right for the Conservative
:19:08. > :19:15.Party and this's the truth of where they are going in terms of this
:19:16. > :19:18.policy on a referendum. APPLAUSE
:19:19. > :19:24.Peter Hitchens? I'm amazed that this complete fake has achieved such
:19:25. > :19:28.success, that somebody can go... APPLAUSE
:19:29. > :19:31.Somebody who loves the European Union, the words European Union run
:19:32. > :19:36.through him as they run through a stick of rock, a man who a couple
:19:37. > :19:43.years ago made a speech saying the European Union should be extended to
:19:44. > :19:49.the Ural Mountains. This person, one of the most pro-European countries
:19:50. > :19:53.probably, he's an opponent of Brussels. He's a tribute either to
:19:54. > :19:56.the amazing powers of spin of the Conservative Party or the
:19:57. > :19:59.extraordinary gullibility of members of the population. I just can't
:20:00. > :20:04.understand how anyone can swallow it. He got into this position by
:20:05. > :20:08.accident. He was wrongly briefed by somebody who told him that he could
:20:09. > :20:12.have an easy victory against Juncker because they thought that Angela
:20:13. > :20:16.Merkel was against it. When it turned out she wasn't, he decided to
:20:17. > :20:20.do a huge reverse ferret and, instead of being the great victor
:20:21. > :20:24.who got rid of Jean-Claude Juncker, he'll be the lone opponent of him,
:20:25. > :20:27.along with the Hungarians. This is all completely staged, it has no
:20:28. > :20:32.content at all. David Cameron, if it ever came to a referendum, one of
:20:33. > :20:36.the many post-dates chequed he signed which he almost certainly
:20:37. > :20:40.won't have to honour, if it ever came to a referendum, it would
:20:41. > :20:44.without doubt urge everybody to vote to stay in it. He has no intention
:20:45. > :20:53.to stay in this country. His whole stand against the European Union is
:20:54. > :20:57.phoney. The supposed Euro-sceptics in the Conservative Party - what
:20:58. > :21:01.does that mean, Euro-sceptic, what is there to doubt? You are in fave
:21:02. > :21:05.of leaving it or in fave of staying in it. David Cameron's in fave of
:21:06. > :21:09.staying in it. I don't know what Mr Jenkins is in favour of because, at
:21:10. > :21:12.the moment, he's able to avoid the question thanks to his performance.
:21:13. > :21:15.The Conservative Party in general is and always has been the most
:21:16. > :21:21.pro-Brussels party in the country and for it to pretend to be
:21:22. > :21:24.otherwise is an extraordinary act of dishonesty and anyone who believes
:21:25. > :21:29.it, it's an extraordinary act of gullibility.
:21:30. > :21:32.Many hands up. I'd better let Bernard Jenkin just comment on that.
:21:33. > :21:38.Is your Prime Minister a hero for the way that he stood up? Just to
:21:39. > :21:43.answer Peter's question to start with. If there was a vote tomorrow
:21:44. > :21:46.as to whether we should stay in this centralised bureaucratic failing
:21:47. > :21:50.mess that is the European Union, against which the Labour Party gave
:21:51. > :21:54.away the veto on this question, we should have been able to veto the
:21:55. > :21:58.President of the commission. Unfortunately, the Labour Party gave
:21:59. > :22:02.that veto. Could you carry on with if? I would vote to leave. But what
:22:03. > :22:07.I hope we can do is renegotiate a different relationship. If that's
:22:08. > :22:11.not possible, I will vote to leave and a I want you to have the choice,
:22:12. > :22:14.you see. David Cameron wants you to have the choice. The Labour Party
:22:15. > :22:17.doesn't want you to have the choice. Is David Cameron a hero?
:22:18. > :22:22.Israil-Lebanoning a hero for doing this one thing, which is going into
:22:23. > :22:27.opposition in the European Union where you have the majority votes,
:22:28. > :22:33.not pretending to agree when he doesn't agree, openly saying I don't
:22:34. > :22:36.agree. There were heads of state whispering behind their hands
:22:37. > :22:44.agreeing but they were worried about the Germans. Germany is now the most
:22:45. > :22:49.powerful country in Europe, and even Chancellor Merkel would quite like
:22:50. > :22:54.to not have had this person, but she was frog marched by her backbenchers
:22:55. > :22:57.who told her that she wanted Jean-Claude Juncker and that's the
:22:58. > :23:02.end of it. So she's no hero but Cameron? I think he is, for pointing
:23:03. > :23:10.out that a spade is a spade and this is not the one we wanted so I'm not
:23:11. > :23:14.voting for him. You in the front row? I wouldn't
:23:15. > :23:17.call David Cameron a hero but it was nice to see him stand up for British
:23:18. > :23:20.interests. I mean, after the European election result, it's clear
:23:21. > :23:25.that the British people want a referendum on the membership of the
:23:26. > :23:32.European Union and whether he sticks to it or not is probably a different
:23:33. > :23:38.story. He's slightly phoney on this, but I think... If he doesn't do it,
:23:39. > :23:43.he'll really have some problems with backbenchers? He's got backbenchers
:23:44. > :23:50.like you and UKIP to kick him up the backside if he doesn't do it. No
:23:51. > :23:54.doubt the Liberal Democrats and Labour are going to block that Bill.
:23:55. > :23:58.Well, I hope they are not going to because the signs are that they are
:23:59. > :24:03.going to let it through, then we can put it through the House of Lords.
:24:04. > :24:10.You might as well offer a referendum as well. Everyone else wants it. I'm
:24:11. > :24:16.not saying that. APPLAUSE
:24:17. > :24:19.I'm just saying, a referendum is in people's interests. My generation's
:24:20. > :24:23.never had a say. I don't know whether I would like to stay in or
:24:24. > :24:27.leave but I would like to have a stay of whether I want to stay in
:24:28. > :24:31.the European superstate and do I leave? I don't know, I would like to
:24:32. > :24:35.stay but the way things are going with the increasing power in
:24:36. > :24:40.Brussels, it's alienating for someone like me. Doesn't he make you
:24:41. > :24:47.a tiny bit suspicious that this referendum is being offered more
:24:48. > :24:55.than two years hence after that? It does. I feel as though it's
:24:56. > :25:00.because... If helps a referendum, he can hold it now. It's because of
:25:01. > :25:04.UKIP, that's why he's offering it. I'll come to you and the man at the
:25:05. > :25:12.top, to the man who says he's waving. I wonder whether the Scots
:25:13. > :25:19.feel the same about Westminster. They are not having a referendum,
:25:20. > :25:23.you see. Good question. Interesting question that, very good question. I
:25:24. > :25:28.would say that I hope the Scots are going to vote no. If in two years'
:25:29. > :25:32.time on this concocted referendum on a time scale to do with the Tory
:25:33. > :25:37.party, not national interest, if they did vote to leave, if we voted
:25:38. > :25:40.to leave the European Union, the Scots would demand another
:25:41. > :25:50.referendum and I bet they would leave the UK. That's a very real...
:25:51. > :26:10.The Scots elected the MEPs. Christine Blower, you cited Unite,
:26:11. > :26:13.you were going on strike with them, you cited them with approval, they
:26:14. > :26:18.have asked for Labour to have a referendum on the EU, McCluskey
:26:19. > :26:22.wants it, would you join him? It's not the policy of the NUT to have a
:26:23. > :26:27.referendum, we don't have policy in this area. Your policy, as a
:26:28. > :26:30.politician yourself? Well, I'm in a very interesting position which is
:26:31. > :26:34.that when we very first went in, I voted no. But I now think that it's
:26:35. > :26:37.absolutely right for Britain to be in Europe and if there were a
:26:38. > :26:42.referendum, I would actually personally vote to stay in, but that
:26:43. > :26:45.isn't the policy of the National Union of Teachers, we don't have
:26:46. > :26:50.policy. You said personally you would vote to stay in. Would you
:26:51. > :26:56.like to see Labour offer that choice, as speaking personally? What
:26:57. > :26:58.the Labour Party's said is if there were significant changes to
:26:59. > :27:02.treaties, they said there would be a referendum and it seems to me, that
:27:03. > :27:06.is a reasonable position, that if there is a significant change in
:27:07. > :27:09.terms of the relationship, the way Europe works, that that might be a
:27:10. > :27:16.point at which you make the decision. I happen to think the idea
:27:17. > :27:21.of offering a referendum beyond the next election is a bit phoney and I
:27:22. > :27:28.think it's destabilising and unsettling. Mr McCluskey says Ed
:27:29. > :27:33.Miliband's going to have a difficult job explaining why he's not joining
:27:34. > :27:40.other parties on offering a vote that's grown concern? Well,
:27:41. > :27:48.that's... So they should do it? That is the policy of ewe but it isn't
:27:49. > :27:57.the policy of my union. Jo Swinson? Do you remember the question? It
:27:58. > :28:02.was, is he a hero. We are on a coalition Government, so my answer
:28:03. > :28:08.to that question is no. I actually think the stoking up of
:28:09. > :28:11.anti-European sentiment is not particularly Consignia deucive to
:28:12. > :28:18.our national interest -- condusive. Whether it's on trade or jobs, we
:28:19. > :28:27.rely on other countries. I think that is an important relationship
:28:28. > :28:31.for the UK to have. I hope in a future referendum and I think
:28:32. > :28:35.there'll be one, I hope we'll vote to stay in. It's not a perfect set
:28:36. > :28:40.of institutions, we'll reform it. Then it comes down to typing. Rather
:28:41. > :28:43.than picking a date out of the air at random of saying it should be
:28:44. > :28:47.2017, what we have legislated for is picking up exactly on the point the
:28:48. > :28:50.gentleman in the middle say, he said he felt uncomfortable about more
:28:51. > :28:55.powers going to the European Union. So when there is a treaty change
:28:56. > :29:00.and, of course, it's feasible that with all of the changes in the
:29:01. > :29:04.eurozone as they work themselves out after the financial crisis that we
:29:05. > :29:09.faced, that there may well be some treaty change and at that point the
:29:10. > :29:14.referendum would kick in as per legislation. What changed your mind
:29:15. > :29:18.on all this because you used to say the exact opposite, never good
:29:19. > :29:22.having a vote on the Lisbon treat eye, you said we needed a vote on
:29:23. > :29:27.the principle. Why did you change your mind? Why don't you ask Clegg
:29:28. > :29:30.who is against it to say we'll do well with the British public? If
:29:31. > :29:34.there's treaty change we should have a vote but the only sensible
:29:35. > :29:40.question would be to have whether we are in or out of the European Union.
:29:41. > :29:44.It's dishonest this, because the European Union treaties take power
:29:45. > :29:47.from our own country every day, every court judgment, every new
:29:48. > :29:52.directive is taking power from our country. If we want that to stop, we
:29:53. > :29:57.need to change the treaties. If we won't, then you have to accept the
:29:58. > :30:00.city of London becomes regulated by the European Union and we have open
:30:01. > :30:02.borders with the rest of the European Union, we can't control
:30:03. > :30:06.immigration with the rest of the European Union. We are going to have
:30:07. > :30:07.to accept that all these things keep happening and there's nothing we can
:30:08. > :30:29.do about it. This sounds like Batman and the
:30:30. > :30:32.Riddler. The other three main parties, up against this situation
:30:33. > :30:38.with regards to us having a referendum. Why cannot the British
:30:39. > :30:42.people be allowed to put the great back into Great Britain and give us
:30:43. > :30:47.a referendum so we can make up our own minds? We are the experts out
:30:48. > :30:53.here. We know what's going down. Let's put the great back into Great
:30:54. > :30:56.Britain. You Sir, what do you think? I'm coming back to the fundamental
:30:57. > :31:02.point about David Cameron. He missed a chance where he could have
:31:03. > :31:06.nominated an alternative to Juncker. By staying in the EPP and getting it
:31:07. > :31:14.sorted out there. Wouldn't need to be a hero. The woman there in the
:31:15. > :31:19.second row. I think a yes/no referendum is too simplistic for
:31:20. > :31:25.such a complex issue for the public to say no or yes. You need reform
:31:26. > :31:30.and perhaps a better solution would be yes we want to stay in with no
:31:31. > :31:40.reform. Yes we want to stay in but we want reform in the EU but we want
:31:41. > :31:47.to come out completely. Yes and no is too much of a dichotomy. Too
:31:48. > :31:51.brutal? Yes. But if there was a renegotiation and a Prime Minister,
:31:52. > :31:57.say, Cameron, would say yes if he were in a position to do it, would
:31:58. > :32:02.it be right to say yes or no? Yes, I think if there was a change in the
:32:03. > :32:08.way the EU was run, I think you would be in a position to the say
:32:09. > :32:12.yes or no. This is a myth. The whole idea of renegotiation is a fantasy.
:32:13. > :32:16.Just as the idea that there is an alternative to Jean-Claude Juncker.
:32:17. > :32:22.If it hadn't been Jean-Claude Juncker, the EU keeps cupboards full
:32:23. > :32:26.of men in grey suits just like him. To complain that a European Union
:32:27. > :32:31.official is a federalist is like complaining that a bicycle has
:32:32. > :32:34.handlebars. That is what they are. There is no renegotiation. The
:32:35. > :32:40.European Union has been since it began, and since the Treaty of Rome,
:32:41. > :32:48.a clause calling for ever closer union. That means abolition of our
:32:49. > :32:53.power. Mr Jenas, Jenas, he poses as an opponent of the European Union.
:32:54. > :32:59.The European Arrest Warrant, which we have uniquely got out of, which
:33:00. > :33:03.allow as magistrate in Europe to issue a warrant to somebody in this
:33:04. > :33:10.country which we have to execute. We could if we wish opt ouch that. By a
:33:11. > :33:15.unique anomaly of the European Union we can but they are not going. I am
:33:16. > :33:20.completely at one with you. I'm going to vote defence this. It is
:33:21. > :33:25.mad. We stood on the platform of the European elections saying we are
:33:26. > :33:27.going to take back power over justice and European affairs. It is
:33:28. > :33:35.bonkers. ALL TALK AT ONCE
:33:36. > :33:42.It helps us to catch criminals. You don't have to be in the European
:33:43. > :33:46.Union to get an extradition warrant. Without the European Arrest Warrant
:33:47. > :33:54.we would never have got the London bombers. We would have had different
:33:55. > :33:58.(Inaudible) Cameron picked the wrong fight. One of the reforms we are
:33:59. > :34:01.trying to get out of Europe is making it more democratic. The point
:34:02. > :34:07.was that Juncker was a democratic choice of the European Parliament.
:34:08. > :34:12.We had only just elected. Would you like the next time there is a
:34:13. > :34:16.general election here that the leader of the largest party wasn't
:34:17. > :34:22.the Prime Minister? Or the leader of the country. That's what the lodge
:34:23. > :34:24.irk of not having Juncker est party wasn't the Prime Minister? Or the
:34:25. > :34:27.leader of the country. That's what the lodge irk of not having Juncker
:34:28. > :34:30.was -- logic of not having Juncker was. He was the leading candidate
:34:31. > :34:33.and he had just won that election. APPLAUSE
:34:34. > :34:42.On that puzzle, we'll go on to another question. The Croydon MP
:34:43. > :34:45.Richard Ottaway has suggested that residents who can't afford a house
:34:46. > :34:50.in the area should move to Manchester. Do you agree? This was
:34:51. > :34:58.Richard Ottaway's view. You should move to Manchester if you can't
:34:59. > :35:05.afford to live in Croydon. Bernard Jenkin. That's my name. I called you
:35:06. > :35:09.Patrick because I knew your father. I don't agree with my colleague. I
:35:10. > :35:14.know what he's saying and I think it probably came out wrong. What we
:35:15. > :35:18.need in London is to deal with this housing bubble, to have a lot more
:35:19. > :35:22.homes built. And we need imagination. We are going to have to
:35:23. > :35:31.have a lot of imagination to get it wrong. I was in opposition during
:35:32. > :35:34.the 1990s and 2000s. We got very green-mind about building on green
:35:35. > :35:37.fields and being against building on the countryside. We were very
:35:38. > :35:40.against what Labour were trying to do. Now we are trying to do what
:35:41. > :35:45.they were trying to do. We were wrong. We've got to build more homes
:35:46. > :35:50.in the South East. But it comes down to this other point. We've got to
:35:51. > :35:54.make it so that you can have a career in Manchester. You don't have
:35:55. > :35:59.to come down to London. We have to focus the economic centre of graft
:36:00. > :35:59.in our country. Re of graft in our country.
:36:00. > :36:05.APPLAUSE -- gravity in our country. I think
:36:06. > :36:11.what Lord Adonis announced this week, along the lines of what Lord
:36:12. > :36:14.Heseltine announced a couple of years ago, reallocating resources so
:36:15. > :36:18.they can be controlled and spent by local forces in different parts of
:36:19. > :36:23.the country. Maybe we can go further and make much more tax-raising
:36:24. > :36:28.power, more autonomy for the city regions. We've got to try and
:36:29. > :36:33.balance out the fact we've got this megacity in London. A fantastic
:36:34. > :36:39.global hub but it must not crowd out what's happening elsewhere in the
:36:40. > :36:43.UK. You are saying we should be getting people on trains up to
:36:44. > :36:48.Manchester? What's wrong with that? Alan grew up in Chelsea or Notting
:36:49. > :36:51.Hill. He wouldn't be able to afford to live there now. Or perhaps you
:36:52. > :36:56.do! LAUGHTER Have you got a policy to
:36:57. > :37:03.allow him back in? Come on! There was a poll in the Standard. Kick the
:37:04. > :37:07.Russians out and not allow people to move back into Kensington or
:37:08. > :37:12.Chelsea? That's a yes. There was a poll in the Standard which showed
:37:13. > :37:16.that most Londoners now think London property prices are too high and
:37:17. > :37:21.should fall. That just shows how much people are worried that their
:37:22. > :37:26.children and their grandchildren aren't going to be able to live in
:37:27. > :37:32.the communities where they were born. Rosemary, do you agree with
:37:33. > :37:37.what Richard Ottaway said? No, not at all. I find that I lose staff
:37:38. > :37:40.because there's not enough affordable housing in the area. My
:37:41. > :37:46.daughter has really struggled to get her foot on the housing ladder.
:37:47. > :37:51.We've had to help her out. I think we do need more affordable housing
:37:52. > :37:58.to support a cross range of the population. The high-end and it has
:37:59. > :38:04.to be affordable for people that are in local authority jobs, teaching
:38:05. > :38:07.positions, nursi staff. No, I don't agree with him.
:38:08. > :38:15.APPLAUSE Christine Blower? Well, I'm in
:38:16. > :38:20.agreement with what Bernard Jenkin has said. The royal institute of
:38:21. > :38:26.architects this week brought out a report saying we need to build
:38:27. > :38:30.300,000 homes a year for the future, because we haven't been building
:38:31. > :38:36.enough. We do have to think about whether every bit of the green belt
:38:37. > :38:39.is doing what it needs to do. Critically we have to make sure
:38:40. > :38:43.there are affordable houses for people who want to stay in the area
:38:44. > :38:47.where they grew up. I live in Hammersmith and Fulham, where almost
:38:48. > :38:54.all the development over the past eight years has been distinctly
:38:55. > :38:57.unaffordable for anyone who is the son or daughter of working people
:38:58. > :39:02.who live in Hammersmith. How do you achieve it? Well, you obviously have
:39:03. > :39:06.a policy of building some social housing and some part ownership, all
:39:07. > :39:11.of those things. But you have to think about where else you can
:39:12. > :39:15.build. The fact is that, according to the architects, there are bits of
:39:16. > :39:20.the green belt on which we can build, because it is not good
:39:21. > :39:27.amenity green belt. We have to use all the brownfield sites we've got,
:39:28. > :39:30.but we have to make sure brownfield sites we've got, but we have to make
:39:31. > :39:33.sure that there aren't - I believe there are large number obvious these
:39:34. > :39:37.- numbers of unoccupied house in this city centres, whether in London
:39:38. > :39:41.or Manchester. Absolutely, I think that we shouldn't be focusing
:39:42. > :39:45.everything on London and the South East. I don't personally want to go
:39:46. > :39:50.and live in Manchester, because I live in London and have lived in
:39:51. > :39:56.London for a long time. But die want there to be sufficient -- but I do
:39:57. > :40:00.want there to be sufficient housing in Manchester for people to be able
:40:01. > :40:04.to sustain themselves in their own home on the kinds of jobs that they
:40:05. > :40:07.can get. Ottaway's point was that it is much cheaper to live in
:40:08. > :40:11.Manchester and you should leave London if you can't afford to live
:40:12. > :40:14.here. But there is no reason why people should have to leave in
:40:15. > :40:19.London if they want to live in London. Manchester is a vibrant and
:40:20. > :40:25.wonderful city, but I don't think people should be forced to move to
:40:26. > :40:32.other parts of the country. They are in the BBC. The BBC forces them all
:40:33. > :40:37.to go and live in Salford. It is common in the area where I represent
:40:38. > :40:42.that people who are trying to get on the housing ladder can't necessarily
:40:43. > :40:46.do so easily close to the area where they grew up. They might have to
:40:47. > :40:51.move a little further away initially as they get on the housing ladder. I
:40:52. > :40:56.think 200 miles is a little extreme for that. People do live in
:40:57. > :40:59.communities. Those family ties can be incredibly important. Do you
:41:00. > :41:05.think the right number of houses are being built? If not, why not? We
:41:06. > :41:11.need to build more houses. We are building more. We are. 450,000 since
:41:12. > :41:14.the general election, which is a significant increase, more than
:41:15. > :41:21.double the amount that were being built. But Harold Macmillan built
:41:22. > :41:24.300,000 houses a year. That was when the population of the country was
:41:25. > :41:29.smaller. Why couldn't you have done that? We do need to ramp up and
:41:30. > :41:31.build more. Then why haven't new Various things have made it
:41:32. > :41:35.difficult, not least construction and the economic crisis that we
:41:36. > :41:40.faced. We are looking at more garden cities, to have new places with good
:41:41. > :41:44.transport lines that can become new hubs and new communities. I think we
:41:45. > :41:49.need to get a lot more inventive with brownfield. It strikes me, I
:41:50. > :41:55.never cease to be surprised in London, some little corners in zone
:41:56. > :42:02.1 or zone 2 and you have der lit buildings. I don't want to stop you
:42:03. > :42:06.in full flow. What can you do, you say we haven't built enough houses,
:42:07. > :42:10.but what can you do to get developers to build on the
:42:11. > :42:14.brownfield sites, where they seem unwilling to do? Or are you saying
:42:15. > :42:19.that councils should build more house insist Councils also should.
:42:20. > :42:23.One of the things that Nick Clegg set out clearly in terms of our
:42:24. > :42:26.plans for the future is to say we need to make sure once we've dealt
:42:27. > :42:30.with the deficit we are changing the fiscal rules to make sure sure we
:42:31. > :42:34.have investment and we borrow to invest in house building, because we
:42:35. > :42:38.do need many more homes. That's the only solution to this issue. I think
:42:39. > :42:42.one of the issues in London is the number of properties that are being
:42:43. > :42:47.bought up by foreign investors and not even lived in. But empty
:42:48. > :42:50.properties... APPLAUSE
:42:51. > :42:54.What we have done, we've increased stamp duty in such circumstances to
:42:55. > :43:00.15%, but do we need to look at whether there's more things to do?
:43:01. > :43:05.We want to introduce a mansion tax. High-end property is undertaxed.
:43:06. > :43:11.There's a range of different things, but we need to stop London being the
:43:12. > :43:14.centre of the universe as far as our mind-set is concerned. There are
:43:15. > :43:18.lots of different corners of this country that have a fantastic amount
:43:19. > :43:23.to offer. Creative industries this Manchester, financial services in
:43:24. > :43:33.Leeds or Edinburgh... Hull. I worked in Hull. Hull is wonderful too.
:43:34. > :43:37.Harwich! OK. I think there is too much emphasis on houses and not
:43:38. > :43:44.enough emphasis on homes. At the end of the day my best friend had to
:43:45. > :43:48.leave his childhood home and now he can't go back there. People need
:43:49. > :43:52.homes. If you are going to build houses you then need a hospital, a
:43:53. > :43:57.school for people to go to. An infrastructure, a community. There
:43:58. > :44:01.are so many empty houses out there. Croydon do ghost tours of all the
:44:02. > :44:06.empty building. A councillor is telling you to leave when there are
:44:07. > :44:11.properties empty there. What is a guest tour? Is it exciting? You
:44:12. > :44:19.don't see actual ghosts. Just memories. They show properties no
:44:20. > :44:20.longer in use? They go around the derelict buildings and say look at
:44:21. > :44:37.how good this architecture at all. I think this is the mindset
:44:38. > :44:41.of a number of Westminster MPs that when they look at this, they think
:44:42. > :44:45.that the easiest thing is for people to up sticks and two because it's
:44:46. > :44:48.not in their interests to have those people around. The trouble, is I
:44:49. > :44:52.don't think it will hit home until the nanny of that person doesn't
:44:53. > :44:55.turn up in the morning and the fire dozen get put out because there is
:44:56. > :45:02.no firemen around the corner and the police don't turn up at his door. I
:45:03. > :45:09.think for some of these people, only in time, the truth will hit home.
:45:10. > :45:14.OK. Peter? Mr Ottaway seems to have done that thing which the
:45:15. > :45:18.politicians here seem to do, the horrible thing politicians are never
:45:19. > :45:23.supposed to do is tell the truth. It may be as a result the May have to
:45:24. > :45:27.move out of Croydon, I don't know that. Will be up to you. This whole
:45:28. > :45:31.subject is the reason why people like me have been banging on, as we
:45:32. > :45:35.are accused of doing, about the European Union, because the reason
:45:36. > :45:39.for our housing crisis is that we have had, thanks to our open
:45:40. > :45:43.borders, imposed on us by the European Union, the greatest wave of
:45:44. > :45:47.mass immigration in our national history, begun under Labour,
:45:48. > :45:49.continued under the coalation and that's why there aren't enough
:45:50. > :45:58.houses. There's another reason for it.
:45:59. > :46:03.APPLAUSE. It's not because... Absolutely not
:46:04. > :46:06.blaming immigrants, no. The people that came here were perfectly
:46:07. > :46:10.reasonable to come here, encouraged to come here by Governments, they
:46:11. > :46:16.came to better themselves, I don't blame them in the slightest. What I
:46:17. > :46:21.blame, if you'll let me... My friend had to move out of his house because
:46:22. > :46:26.the council realised they could sell it for ?2 million and some rich
:46:27. > :46:31.people could move in. It's a separate issue. It's a housing
:46:32. > :46:36.issue. To say that I'm blaming immigrants is a big, fat lie and I
:46:37. > :46:41.reject it. It's to do with the politicians. They open the borders
:46:42. > :46:45.and made it happen and we are going to have to find some accommodation,
:46:46. > :46:50.but I do not think they should escape the blame. When we realised
:46:51. > :46:53.that much of our country is going to have to be concreted over because of
:46:54. > :46:58.this, we should always remember who made that happen. There is another
:46:59. > :47:00.aspect of this, which is that Government after Government
:47:01. > :47:04.repeatedly failing to find any way of generally stimulating the
:47:05. > :47:07.economy's gone over and over again into the creation of housing bubbles
:47:08. > :47:11.to create the illusion of prosperity. It's going on now, it's
:47:12. > :47:15.dangerous for the economy and very, very bad for people who have to live
:47:16. > :47:19.in houses. For most of us, it doesn't matter what your house is
:47:20. > :47:24.worth, you can't sell it and two and live in a tent. What matters is
:47:25. > :47:35.whether you can afford to buy it and whether your children will be able
:47:36. > :47:39.to buy one or rent one. Mass immigration is to blame.
:47:40. > :47:51.You at the very back? I have a couple of suggestions. We need to
:47:52. > :47:58.have tax or Government policies whereby we can force land banks
:47:59. > :48:02.built on, rather than waiting for inflated house prices to generate
:48:03. > :48:08.major profit. Many the London area, we need to get a Government policy
:48:09. > :48:11.for vacant houses and third, I do agree, immigration is also one of
:48:12. > :48:18.the angles which we have to look into. We can't start categorising
:48:19. > :48:21.people into giving them certain things because they are making this
:48:22. > :48:33.valid point. It's high time we are all honest about this situation. I
:48:34. > :48:37.heard arguments about this in Notting Hill when I lived there,
:48:38. > :48:42.people coming over from the West Indies to drive buses, work in the
:48:43. > :48:48.NHS and work in the Post Offices. We heard the same things then. I'm not
:48:49. > :48:55.associating you with this, Peter. It's a straightforward smear. It's a
:48:56. > :49:00.smear. We have Mosley saying the same thing and it was always blame
:49:01. > :49:03.the immigrants. Now, on this issue in particular, the argument is
:49:04. > :49:07.ludicrous. The argument is ludicrous. There was a housing
:49:08. > :49:15.crisis. David just mentioned 300,000 houses a year under Macmillan,
:49:16. > :49:30.250,000 before him when Nye Bevan was the Housing Minister. In London
:49:31. > :49:35.now ?135,000, four times the London average wage. The point Jo made was
:49:36. > :49:38.right about the need to build extra houses and Bernard said it as well.
:49:39. > :49:45.The time to have done it was over the last four years. It's never been
:49:46. > :49:49.cheaper to construct houses than over the last four years. All these
:49:50. > :49:53.houses are going to have to be built eventually. We could have stimulated
:49:54. > :49:56.the economy, instead of that, Osborne cut back on the capital
:49:57. > :50:00.spending budget and so we are still talking about the same things that
:50:01. > :50:05.we should have been doing three or four years ago.
:50:06. > :50:10.APPLAUSE The woman at the very back there? I
:50:11. > :50:15.have to disagree about what at toeway said about having to up
:50:16. > :50:23.sticks families away from the area if they can't afford it -- Ottaway.
:50:24. > :50:27.The point is, there are families there that have family members to
:50:28. > :50:31.help them look after their children. How would that work if they had to
:50:32. > :50:36.move out of the area? The woman at the back? The housing crisis is due
:50:37. > :50:40.to the widespread selling off of council property due to right-to-buy
:50:41. > :50:46.which was one of the most devisive policies of the Tory Government.
:50:47. > :50:49.Bernard Jenkins, do you want to answer that point? It's a policy the
:50:50. > :50:53.Labour Party have carried on with and the people living in those
:50:54. > :50:57.houses, whether they are owned by the council or somebody else, maybe
:50:58. > :51:01.we should have built more council houses and we are now building more
:51:02. > :51:05.council houses, but actually, every suggestion that's being made, when I
:51:06. > :51:10.said I needed some imagination, we are going to have to build new
:51:11. > :51:16.settlements, by new settlements and Boris has this great idea. Who is
:51:17. > :51:21.Boris? Who is Boris? Erm, you're showing your age! Boris Johnson got
:51:22. > :51:25.this brilliant idea of moving Heathrow Airport to the Thames
:51:26. > :51:29.Estuary which would create a huge opportunity to create a new City on
:51:30. > :51:33.the site of Heathrow, build hundreds of thousands of homes. Are you in
:51:34. > :51:37.favour of that? Yes, I very much am. That is the kind of imagination we
:51:38. > :51:42.need to tackle this problem. Can I just say one thing. We politicians
:51:43. > :51:48.have allowed this extraordinary influx of population into this
:51:49. > :51:51.country. I mean, the... That point's been made so I'll stop you there and
:51:52. > :51:55.we'll go on to the final question because we have only a couple of
:51:56. > :51:59.minutes left. Andy Richardson? Richardson?.s a recent pop list poll
:52:00. > :52:07.described leading polices as weird, arrogant and out of touch. Are they?
:52:08. > :52:15.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE -- populist poll.
:52:16. > :52:21.You can answer that first, Bernard Jenkin? Given that about 0.01% of
:52:22. > :52:27.the population is involved in active politics, that does make us pretty
:52:28. > :52:31.weird, doesn't it, Alan? And Jo! We do tend to live in something of a
:52:32. > :52:36.bubble in the Westminster village, but every MP goes to their
:52:37. > :52:40.constituency at weekends and deals with everyone's very, very
:52:41. > :52:47.straightforward problems and very difficult problems. And ignores
:52:48. > :52:54.them. No, that's not true. No. You can always get a round of applause
:52:55. > :52:58.by attacking politicians. This one is a poll that was done on what
:52:59. > :53:02.people think, it's not a cheap round of applause, it's what people say.
:53:03. > :53:06.You should answer what they say. I'm answering what they say. I do think
:53:07. > :53:11.that politicians who say things like, people who go to food banks
:53:12. > :53:22.are doing it as a lifestyle choice are clearly out of touch with what's
:53:23. > :53:25.happening. I do think that there are many politicians, not all by any
:53:26. > :53:29.means, but many politicians who do get out of touch, notwithstanding
:53:30. > :53:35.the fact that they have to speak to their constituents when their
:53:36. > :53:40.constituents come in. And they are a bit weird, as you say, because there
:53:41. > :53:43.are so few people doing it. The serious point is, I think we
:53:44. > :53:48.absolutely have to have politicians who understand what life is like for
:53:49. > :53:52.working people who frankly there are plenty of working people having to
:53:53. > :53:57.claim benefits because they are just in such a poor state. I really don't
:53:58. > :54:01.think that the vast majority of politicians understand that. I think
:54:02. > :54:05.that is a serious matter. Alan Johnson, weird? Do you think
:54:06. > :54:09.yourself as weird? Well, many people would say that. You do? Look, this
:54:10. > :54:13.is really serious and it's a big problem because there is this
:54:14. > :54:17.disconnect and it's true, Bernard says it's always been the case,
:54:18. > :54:22.there was never a stage when politicians were popular, if you
:54:23. > :54:25.look back in history, even Winston Churchill after the Second World War
:54:26. > :54:29.had an independent stand against him and get 10,000 votes in his own
:54:30. > :54:33.constituency. It's got to a stage now, and that might be something to
:54:34. > :54:38.do with the expenses scandal and other things where it's worrying,
:54:39. > :54:41.you can't just dismiss this and say, as I would say, it's a noble
:54:42. > :54:46.profession and anyone's welcome to join it and stand for election, it's
:54:47. > :54:49.a great thing for us to have a democracy with people voting for the
:54:50. > :54:55.people that represent them. Go to many places in the world not too far
:54:56. > :54:58.away, go across to Russia, you will see communities that really would be
:54:59. > :55:03.desperately keen to have that system, but if we've got to the
:55:04. > :55:07.stage now where so many people feel this and whether it's the
:55:08. > :55:11.institutions, whether it's the way MPs behave, whether it's the
:55:12. > :55:15.process, we've got to tackle it because we can't just dismiss this
:55:16. > :55:19.and I think whatever the solutions, and I can't come out with them
:55:20. > :55:24.tonight, whatever the solutions, we have to take it seriously, all
:55:25. > :55:28.parties, because I've never known this disconnect be so bad. The man
:55:29. > :55:33.in suspecticals? Do you think we have got a problem when the Prime
:55:34. > :55:39.Minister can guess the price of a loaf of bread and get it 50% wrong
:55:40. > :55:48.and Boris can guess the price of a pint of milk and also get it 50%
:55:49. > :55:51.wrong? I think being very actively involved in politics whether you
:55:52. > :55:56.have elected or the fantastic people in the constituencies that go out at
:55:57. > :56:00.weekends and give up their evenings and so on, that is not the norm so
:56:01. > :56:04.perhaps that is a bit weird but I also think people have a different
:56:05. > :56:07.view of politicians as a group than their own elective councillor in
:56:08. > :56:11.their community or their own Member of Parliament. I'll often have
:56:12. > :56:21.people explain their frustration to me when I'm out knocking on doors or
:56:22. > :56:24.in my constituency, and they'll say, I don't mean you. So there is a
:56:25. > :56:28.disconnect about people's experiences. Given some of the
:56:29. > :56:33.comments from the local members, that might not be the right
:56:34. > :56:37.audience, but people sometimes have an appreciation if their local
:56:38. > :56:40.councillors and local Members of Parliament that they have been
:56:41. > :56:47.helped and don't necessarily think the same. Peter Hitchens? Some are
:56:48. > :56:53.all right, most are pretty much like us and that's the problem. Alan goes
:56:54. > :56:58.on about being elected. You don't get elected, but you get selected by
:56:59. > :57:04.the parties, and you can't get selected unless you accept studenth
:57:05. > :57:08.stupid discredited ideas on which have been exploding which they'll
:57:09. > :57:12.not give up. That is the real reason for the disconnect between them and
:57:13. > :57:15.us, they are still thinking in categories and ideas discredited
:57:16. > :57:18.many years ago and you can't get into the magic circle unless you
:57:19. > :57:23.accept that. Until that changes and the three parties are ejected from
:57:24. > :57:32.Westminster and replaced with ones which truly represent what we are
:57:33. > :57:42.worried about... But you Your party would never select me, his party
:57:43. > :57:46.would never select me. Do you not see how Parliamentary elections
:57:47. > :57:53.work? You voted for those put before you by the major parties. If anybody
:57:54. > :58:01.outside that point stands... It's exactly the point at which people
:58:02. > :58:07.get into politics. How did Caroline Lucas get elected? It's Brighton.
:58:08. > :58:11.The hour is over, next week will be the last Question Time until the
:58:12. > :58:14.autumn and we'll be in Inverness and will have no politicians on the
:58:15. > :58:18.panel for a change. It will be made up of musicians, businessmen,
:58:19. > :58:22.journalists, and we are going to be back on the 25th September, that's
:58:23. > :58:26.after the Scottish independence vote and we are going to have the
:58:27. > :58:30.programme from Kelso which is close to the English border and what we
:58:31. > :58:33.are looking for on the 25th September is an audience made up in
:58:34. > :58:37.part from people from England, in part from people in Scotland,
:58:38. > :58:42.clearly to debate the result of that referendum and, of course, whatever
:58:43. > :58:48.else is in the news. If you want to come to Either programme, go to the
:58:49. > :58:56.website. The address is on the screen. Or you can call us. If you
:58:57. > :59:02.are listening on Five Live, the debate goes on on Question Time
:59:03. > :59:08.Extra Time. My job is to thank the panel and all of you who came here
:59:09. > :59:10.to take part. From next week, when we'll be in Scotland, good night.