:00:12. > :00:14.this is our last programme before the referendum on Scottish
:00:15. > :00:18.independence in September. Rather than here, as we have many times in
:00:19. > :00:22.recent programmes, the voice of politicians on this issue, we have
:00:23. > :00:32.chosen tonight, for once, to hear from the laity. Welcome to Question
:00:33. > :00:37.Time. And good evening to you at home, to
:00:38. > :00:41.our audience who will be putting the questions to the panel, who do not
:00:42. > :00:46.know what will be put to them. They are the songwriter and lead singer
:00:47. > :00:49.of the band Deacon Blue, Ricky Ross, former Scotland and British Lions
:00:50. > :00:55.rugby player Scott Hastings, newspaper columnist Joan Burnie, who
:00:56. > :01:01.was with the Daily Record as an agony aunt for the last 35 years,
:01:02. > :01:05.and the businessman Alan Savage, who runs the engineering group Orion,
:01:06. > :01:18.and is one of the biggest donors to the Better Together campaign.
:01:19. > :01:30.OK, let's have a question first from Andrew Smith. Will the referendum be
:01:31. > :01:35.decided by votes from the heart or from the head? From the heart or
:01:36. > :01:40.from the head, Ricky Ross? Well, tonight, we will have a lot of stuff
:01:41. > :01:46.from the head, I hope, and we will talk it round. But people will go
:01:47. > :01:50.into a polling booth on September the 18th. And I am pretty sure when
:01:51. > :01:56.they go in, there will still be a lot of heart stuff going on.
:01:57. > :02:00.Ultimately, you will have to make a choice of what country you want to
:02:01. > :02:04.live in. It is very interesting. We can do the facts and the figures,
:02:05. > :02:09.but I do think there is a lot of stuff about the heart. It is not
:02:10. > :02:13.about feeling Scottish, not about feeling some false sense of
:02:14. > :02:19.nationalistic pride and excluding people. It is a heart that says we
:02:20. > :02:23.want a more just, fairer society, and we want a democratic result for
:02:24. > :02:33.Scotland. APPLAUSE
:02:34. > :02:37.Scott Hastings. I am in the fortunate position of
:02:38. > :02:42.having represented my country and you cannot get a more proud Scotsman
:02:43. > :02:46.than myself. I played 65 times for my country and also have the ability
:02:47. > :02:50.to play for the British Lions, a select team from Ireland, Wales,
:02:51. > :02:55.England and Scotland, who go to the southern hemisphere nations once
:02:56. > :02:57.every four years. That was very, very special, almost
:02:58. > :03:01.every four years. That was very, moment. Just as Sir Chris Hoy
:03:02. > :03:05.competing in the Olympic Games. But I want to be part of something
:03:06. > :03:09.really special. We have politicians telling us we have to be independent
:03:10. > :03:18.to be a great country. I don't agree. We are already a great
:03:19. > :03:22.country. We have outstanding education, outstanding tourism, our
:03:23. > :03:27.financial services industry employs over 200,000 people. I travel the
:03:28. > :03:32.world over and to expats, we are a proud country. We have given a lot
:03:33. > :03:36.to the world. Our renewable energy, wave technology, wind power, there
:03:37. > :03:42.is a lot of entrepreneurship in Scotland and that is what I am proud
:03:43. > :03:44.to be part of. I am also proud to be part of Great Britain and the United
:03:45. > :03:48.Kingdom. APPLAUSE
:03:49. > :03:53.Is it an issue of heart and head for you, a choice between heart and
:03:54. > :03:57.head? It is both. I would agree with some
:03:58. > :04:01.of what Scott has said, but I would say we are a great country despite
:04:02. > :04:10.being in the union, not because of it. Joan Burnie. Can you call it
:04:11. > :04:14.great when the differential between rich and poor becomes bigger every
:04:15. > :04:19.single day? For me, it is both my head and my heart. My head asks me
:04:20. > :04:22.why, of all the countries in the entire
:04:23. > :04:23.why, of all the countries in the only ones who
:04:24. > :04:30.why, of all the countries in the thick to run their own affairs? This
:04:31. > :04:34.has puzzled me for years. It is not that I am anti-English. Simon
:04:35. > :04:37.has puzzled me for years. It is not sooner England gets rid of Scotland
:04:38. > :04:44.the better, so thanks for that, Simon. It is a head and they heart
:04:45. > :04:49.thing. I think it is a different country. I have worked in England. I
:04:50. > :04:53.have many English friends. country. I have worked in England. I
:04:54. > :04:58.say that but I genuinely do. England is also a great country, although it
:04:59. > :05:02.could be a greater country, and Scotland could be a great country.
:05:03. > :05:14.But I think they could both be greater apart. But how are we
:05:15. > :05:17.supposed to make our minds up? All the decisions and all
:05:18. > :05:20.supposed to make our minds up? All so on are going to be made after we
:05:21. > :05:25.have made a decision. I don't know where the money is coming from for
:05:26. > :05:35.my family. I don't know how I'm going to budget. With what? How
:05:36. > :05:39.often? How do we actually know? Scotland is the 14th richest country
:05:40. > :05:43.in the world. We have the resources. We have more GDP per head than
:05:44. > :05:48.either France or Japan, which might interest people, or not. There is
:05:49. > :05:54.enough money to go round, but the way now it is divided between rich
:05:55. > :05:58.and poor is wrong. I want a fairer society. I personally think the
:05:59. > :06:04.Westminster system is broken. We see what goes on in Westminster. The
:06:05. > :06:08.only way forward is for there to be some sort of change. And the only
:06:09. > :06:12.change, as far as I can see, that is happening will be with this
:06:13. > :06:17.referendum, which will at least give us our own parliament, but will also
:06:18. > :06:22.give England their own country back. Alan Savage, the argument that Joan
:06:23. > :06:28.Burnie is putting is about equality. But she have a point? I would like
:06:29. > :06:37.to address where the questions started, about head and heart. If a
:06:38. > :06:43.prospective government, the SNP right eight home of 700 pages and
:06:44. > :06:46.there is one page on finance, financial issues, and the rest is on
:06:47. > :06:51.the heart, it is obvious which way they want the campaign to go. -- if
:06:52. > :06:56.they write a book of 700 pages. They want it based on the heart. If you
:06:57. > :07:03.think about the facts and history of the union, it is a no-brainer that
:07:04. > :07:09.we are better off together. The man up there. I am born in Inverness. I
:07:10. > :07:12.am a passionate Highlanders and I love Scotland and I will take a
:07:13. > :07:20.stand to keep the United Kingdom together. I will give my life for my
:07:21. > :07:25.country, as my grandfather did in the First World War, and his
:07:26. > :07:31.brother, Charlie. Highland Regiment, British Army. I am British forever.
:07:32. > :07:40.We will never, never change. We will keep our union together in the name
:07:41. > :07:47.of Jesus. Thank you. Ricky Ross. Lets go back to your question. Go
:07:48. > :07:53.back to him first. Which point? You choose. You have a good, passionate
:07:54. > :08:04.heart, and the question was head or heart. Allen answered that it is not
:08:05. > :08:14.part of the White Paper. The heart stuff is what John is talking about.
:08:15. > :08:21.That is about compassion. What kind of country do you want to live in?
:08:22. > :08:28.Do you want a country which has its benefits cut, which is marginalising
:08:29. > :08:33.people? This is a rich country. I drove up tonight from my home city
:08:34. > :08:36.of Dundee, through the beautiful land of Perthshire, up to Inverness
:08:37. > :08:43.and I thought, this is an amazing place to live. It has so much going
:08:44. > :08:46.for it. But people at the bottom end are feeling the cups of George
:08:47. > :08:52.Osborne's budget, and that should not be the case. -- the cups. That
:08:53. > :09:01.is where the heart comes in. Build a fairer, better Scotland.
:09:02. > :09:08.Can you answer the point the lady in the front made, if you remember? You
:09:09. > :09:13.made the point that you are confused. She did not say she was
:09:14. > :09:19.confused, but that she did not know what was going to happen. I think
:09:20. > :09:23.you have to take things by stages. We are talking about the democratic
:09:24. > :09:27.process. We are only asking one question in Scotland of each other.
:09:28. > :09:33.Your view is as important as mine, yes or no. And then where do you
:09:34. > :09:36.want to take it. Then you have to make the decision. Why don't you
:09:37. > :09:40.then make the decision about what kind of country you want to live in?
:09:41. > :09:44.But first of all, make the decision to look after your own country. Joan
:09:45. > :09:49.is right. Why would we not do that best remark you have already said
:09:50. > :09:55.you have driven through the most beautiful countryside. I want people
:09:56. > :09:59.get out there and make the country great, people to be educated,
:10:00. > :10:03.inspired to get out onto that landscape and encourage people to to
:10:04. > :10:06.our country and build that entrepreneurism. We don't have to be
:10:07. > :10:13.independent to do that, we can do it right now. The man with the
:10:14. > :10:17.spectacles, and then you in the orange. If you take the yes vote as
:10:18. > :10:22.a businessman, and you take the electorate as a bank manager, the
:10:23. > :10:26.businessman goes to the bank manager and asks for an awful lot of money
:10:27. > :10:33.to expand his business. The bank manager says, what sort of currency
:10:34. > :10:38.are you going to use? The businessman says, well, we think we
:10:39. > :10:43.are going to have the pound. OK. Where is your market? Well, we think
:10:44. > :10:49.it is in Europe. Right, this is a great business plan, we think. What
:10:50. > :10:54.about security? You are going to disarm the nuclear deterrent. That
:10:55. > :10:59.means your new premises, with a lot of equipment in it will have no
:11:00. > :11:05.CCTV, no locks on the doors, and you are going to have it wide open. You
:11:06. > :11:09.are leaving this island race as a soft target at the top. Joan,
:11:10. > :11:17.perhaps you would like to answer that. This island race, have you
:11:18. > :11:22.looked at what has happened to this island race's Armed Forces over the
:11:23. > :11:28.past few years? Have you looked at what will happen if we keep the
:11:29. > :11:33.nuclear deterrent? ?4 billion every year to keep it running. But if you
:11:34. > :11:39.read the paper on it last week, you would also note that that would mean
:11:40. > :11:46.that the Armed Forces would have to be cut town ever more. Why do you
:11:47. > :11:50.want to join NATO? You don't have to be a nuclear power to join NATO. I
:11:51. > :11:58.think you would have known that by now. To go back to your point about
:11:59. > :12:06.economics, economics is part of the head part. It seems to me that if we
:12:07. > :12:10.look at all these people who are telling us how disastrous it is and
:12:11. > :12:16.how poor we are and how the infrastructure of the country will
:12:17. > :12:21.collapse, we then look at everything previous chancellors have said about
:12:22. > :12:25.the economy. Did any of them foresee 2008? When George Osborne became
:12:26. > :12:33.Chancellor he said that growth in the UK would be, I think, 1.8. It
:12:34. > :12:38.was 0.8. Nobody ever knows exactly what is going to happen with
:12:39. > :12:43.economics. Stuff happens. But you cannot make stuff happen unless you
:12:44. > :12:47.have some charge of it, and we do not. You are saying he tries to make
:12:48. > :12:52.stuff up and it doesn't happen, and if we had charge of it we could make
:12:53. > :12:57.stuff happen. But you wouldn't know what would happen? Perhaps I am not
:12:58. > :13:05.putting myself very well. That's it is my accident. That is a
:13:06. > :13:08.condescension to far! Stuff happens, but you have to control it to be
:13:09. > :13:15.able to guide that, and we have no control. I find it a bit insulting
:13:16. > :13:25.from Ricky and Joan to say that compassion only belongs to the yes
:13:26. > :13:29.campaign. The inference was given that we wanted to be a compassionate
:13:30. > :13:32.country. I am also wanting to live in a country that is compassionate,
:13:33. > :13:38.and I don't think you can blame Westminster for everything. But I
:13:39. > :13:42.would also like to say that the head is really important. To know what
:13:43. > :13:46.our finances are going to be. Today the office of budget responsibility
:13:47. > :13:50.announced that the low -- latest forecast for North Sea oil revenue
:13:51. > :13:55.will be 25% less than they predicted a couple of years ago. So economics
:13:56. > :14:01.change all the time as well, and not facing up to what could be is very
:14:02. > :14:09.important. I am pleased you brought up that report. Just wait a second.
:14:10. > :14:18.Mr Hastings, your rhetoric is very heart-warming. However, there is no
:14:19. > :14:23.point at which you point towards a much more socially equitable and
:14:24. > :14:28.just society. And I think it's only by becoming an independent nation
:14:29. > :14:37.that determines its own future that will be possible.
:14:38. > :14:44.APPLAUSE And your reply? You spoke about the
:14:45. > :14:47.specific report that came out today which is very interesting.
:14:48. > :14:52.Particularly interesting to me because, as you can see, I'm very
:14:53. > :14:55.old. Now, I remember back in the 1970s when my late husband was
:14:56. > :15:00.actually an MP and also an economist. There was a report came
:15:01. > :15:02.out about the resources in the North Sea and we were told
:15:03. > :15:08.out about the resources in the North all be done and dusted by 1990 that
:15:09. > :15:11.out about the resources in the North there was very little oil left, so
:15:12. > :15:14.go away and think again. Now, the amount of oil which is left, in
:15:15. > :15:18.monetary value now, is amount of oil which is left, in
:15:19. > :15:29.same as the amount of oil which had been taken out. Are you saying the
:15:30. > :15:33.economics stack up? Yes. Why don't we know what currency we are going
:15:34. > :15:35.economics stack up? Yes. Why don't to be using in Scotland? Because
:15:36. > :15:40.unfortunately, there was not proper discussion. Complex economy, we need
:15:41. > :15:45.a currency, we all agree on that. If you want a just and fair society,
:15:46. > :15:51.that costs money, so we see that the outgoings are ?63.7 billion and the
:15:52. > :15:56.incomings are ?63.7 billion, happy days break even, but if the oil
:15:57. > :16:00.revenues or tax revenues drop, the tax revenue doesn't work, so you
:16:01. > :16:02.cannot run a society on the heart and passion
:16:03. > :16:12.cannot run a society on the heart got to run it with sound, economic
:16:13. > :16:16.principles. If you ever ask Salmond or Sturgeon about the currency, it's
:16:17. > :16:20.evasive and if you don't let us use the pound, we are not going to take
:16:21. > :16:24.our share of the national debt. What way is that to start off a fairer
:16:25. > :16:30.more just country when you are not going to pay your debts? But on that
:16:31. > :16:37.point, do you accept the OBR report that the value of oil is declining,
:16:38. > :16:41.or do you think Joan has got it right by saying you can't trust the
:16:42. > :16:47.forecasts because they are always being made one way or the other. You
:16:48. > :16:51.are a businessman? Oil is a finite item. The more you take out, the
:16:52. > :16:55.less there is of it, this was it's got to go up in price. But to
:16:56. > :17:02.justify a whole basis of running a complex, modern society on whether
:17:03. > :17:06.oil is $15 or $150 a barrel, somebody has to make an estimate and
:17:07. > :17:13.thest mates that the SNP make is that everything will be rosy and
:17:14. > :17:18.wonderful. -- the estimates. What is the currency going to be, what will
:17:19. > :17:22.it be? How can I run a business across the world with 100 different
:17:23. > :17:31.bank accounts if I don't know where I'm starting from? Ricky? We know
:17:32. > :17:39.the currency will be the pound. We know that. That's a fact. What do
:17:40. > :17:45.you know that we don't? Let me take this woman's point, a good point.
:17:46. > :17:49.You can wind back the tape when you get home, but I didn't say that.
:17:50. > :17:54.Neither did Joan. We said we decide what country we want to be, I'm not
:17:55. > :18:00.saying we have a genetic natural tendency to be more compassionate
:18:01. > :18:04.than anyone else, but we make the decision of what country we want to
:18:05. > :18:09.be. Surely the country, or I'm saying the kind of country I want to
:18:10. > :18:14.be is the country that's not heading down the same road as the UK's
:18:15. > :18:20.heading at the moment where the NHS, for example, south of the border, is
:18:21. > :18:25.being taken apart, where benefit cuts are forcing people to go to
:18:26. > :18:30.food banks. We haven't even discussed that yet. One of the most
:18:31. > :18:35.obscene things about modern day Scotland is the fact that all of
:18:36. > :18:39.what Scott said was true, we are a very wealthy country, but people are
:18:40. > :18:48.not experiencing that and they need to experience it.
:18:49. > :18:52.Just the gentleman was explaining about social inequality there. I
:18:53. > :18:56.think there are issues in every society between rich and poor, for
:18:57. > :19:01.want of a better word. I think we've got to address that and we address
:19:02. > :19:03.that through initiatives and volunteering and community,
:19:04. > :19:08.community is so important, we live in the high larnedz in Inverness,
:19:09. > :19:12.there is a community here. If that can be rolled back into cities,
:19:13. > :19:16.there's a potential solution -- Highlands. The reality is, we are
:19:17. > :19:20.living on tough times. I keep an eye on what I spend every moment of
:19:21. > :19:24.every day. A few years ago, I was made redundant, we took a pay cut to
:19:25. > :19:27.try to keep that business alive and we have seen the strikes down south
:19:28. > :19:31.and in England today from public sector workers and I do sympathise
:19:32. > :19:35.with them, but at the end of the day, we are in tough times, we have
:19:36. > :19:39.to just tighten the purse strick strings a wee bit.
:19:40. > :19:46.You had a point on this, didn't you? Do you want to take it? What is your
:19:47. > :19:51.view about what Ricky said? Almost a million people had to use food banks
:19:52. > :19:55.last year while the 104 richest in our country shared a wealth of ?301
:19:56. > :20:01.billion and that quite frankly is disgusting.
:20:02. > :20:05.That figure alone is enough to vote yes because I don't want to be a
:20:06. > :20:11.part of any country that produces such economic disparity.
:20:12. > :20:15.APPLAUSE The cost of separation will be
:20:16. > :20:19.really high. We'd have diminishing oil reserves, the reason that the
:20:20. > :20:25.union came into existence in the first place was because Scotland
:20:26. > :20:30.went bankrupt and was bought over by England basically. I just didn't see
:20:31. > :20:34.any positive side to it. What do you make of Rory's argument that he
:20:35. > :20:38.doesn't want to be part of a country where there's a growing disparity of
:20:39. > :20:44.wealth and that this would be how it is if Scotland is independent? You
:20:45. > :20:47.would have to leave Scotland because situations occur in an independent
:20:48. > :20:52.Scotland. It would make no difference? I don't think it would.
:20:53. > :20:57.Can I say one final word on the oil? Scotland would still be a wealthy
:20:58. > :21:03.country without the oil. Correct. I've never ever understood why this
:21:04. > :21:09.must be the only country in the world which has found oil off its
:21:10. > :21:13.coast. Somehow or other it's seen as a terrible thing to have happened.
:21:14. > :21:17.Look at Norway and what is in their oil fund now. They were sensible.
:21:18. > :21:22.They accept that the North Sea was going to bring a bonanza. What did
:21:23. > :21:29.we do with it? We wasted it. I think the reserves should not be wasted
:21:30. > :21:34.and should go towards... APPLAUSE You,
:21:35. > :21:41.Sir? I can't see what colour your shirt is. I appreciate what you are
:21:42. > :21:48.saying, but I've done the same positively around Scotland. But you
:21:49. > :21:52.have got a Mr Darling in your camp, the most negative campaigner and
:21:53. > :21:56.when he was Chancellor, he couldn't foresee the banking crisis. Why
:21:57. > :22:03.should I listen to your rhetoric? Listen, I can understand that.
:22:04. > :22:07.APPLAUS If you look at the scan doll over RBS, HBOS, it was badly
:22:08. > :22:14.managed, you can then tarnish the brush and look at Gordon Brown and
:22:15. > :22:17.Scotsmen were getting hammered rightly so because the banking
:22:18. > :22:21.industry lost a huge amount of credible. That's gone now. It's time
:22:22. > :22:26.to move forward and moves are being put in place with proper officialdom
:22:27. > :22:30.to move that forward. That's part and parcel of the future debate that
:22:31. > :22:37.that should be an ongoing dialogue because we have to put the trust in
:22:38. > :22:40.people's savings and investments and bed in better together, we can do
:22:41. > :22:45.that. What do you think? In response to
:22:46. > :22:49.what the chap was saying about it not being a viable business
:22:50. > :22:52.proposal, are there not lots of businesses that start from a dream
:22:53. > :22:56.and passion and are based up on that dream and become a success? Who is
:22:57. > :23:00.to say Scotland can't become one of those successes?
:23:01. > :23:05.APPLAUS Answer that because he built up a
:23:06. > :23:15.business I think he walked into a bank and said, I feed to -- I think
:23:16. > :23:20.if he walked into the bank and said I have a passion and a dream, can I
:23:21. > :23:27.borrow some money. You wouldn't get it. You'd have to go to the IMF. I
:23:28. > :23:32.can't see how you are going to have a credit rating based on a situation
:23:33. > :23:35.where you are not prepared to pay your share of the national debt.
:23:36. > :23:38.That was the kick off point, if you don't get the pound, you are not
:23:39. > :23:42.going to pay the share of the national debt. I can't see a credit
:23:43. > :23:47.agency accepted that you have defaulted on debts already, then
:23:48. > :23:50.lending you money. Are you saying an independent Scotland would get broke
:23:51. > :23:55.straightaway? No. What are you saying then? We'd find it difficult
:23:56. > :23:59.to borrow money and the money we borrowed would be at a high interest
:24:00. > :24:05.rate and I'm answering the first question which was if I go to a
:24:06. > :24:10.bank, I can build Saux Cescful business - it doesn't work that way
:24:11. > :24:18.-- build a successful business. One wage out of 70 on finance is
:24:19. > :24:24.beyond belief. Let's give Alan some detail, shall we? Yes. To live in
:24:25. > :24:28.Scotland is to be in the top 20 of the wealthiest countries in the
:24:29. > :24:34.world. To live in Scotland is to be per Head of Population, better off
:24:35. > :24:39.than someone living in Italy, France or the rest of the United Kingdom.
:24:40. > :24:47.Maybe surprisingly you are better off than someone living in Japan.
:24:48. > :24:52.The credit rating for Scotland - and these are recent figures - they are
:24:53. > :24:56.not the yes campaign figures, they come from the Financial Times, from
:24:57. > :25:00.a report in February. Scotland is a very wealthy country. It's
:25:01. > :25:06.potentially a huge country. As Joan said, when we talk about oil, oil is
:25:07. > :25:12.perhaps the last thing that we talk about because we have got so many
:25:13. > :25:17.other resources. We have a very strong food and drinks industry, we
:25:18. > :25:22.have a very, very strong education system. We have one of the best
:25:23. > :25:26.educated adult population in Europe. That's an incredible resource. I was
:25:27. > :25:31.talking to people today at university when they were talking
:25:32. > :25:33.about bringing people in, people certain industries looking for
:25:34. > :25:36.skilled workers. We have skilled workers. We have people. We have
:25:37. > :25:42.talent. That is also a resource and it makes us a very rich country.
:25:43. > :25:46.But, we and lots of people watching this programme tonight are not
:25:47. > :25:49.seeing that, not feeling that. Unfortunately, welfare and a number
:25:50. > :25:55.of other things are still controlled from Westminster.
:25:56. > :26:01.APPLAUSE I would like to make a point really.
:26:02. > :26:04.I think that what Ricky said earlier was interesting about being a more
:26:05. > :26:08.fair and just society. At the moment, it's the Scottish Government
:26:09. > :26:12.that actually health is devolved through Scottish Government and in
:26:13. > :26:16.the Highlands, we've got seven different companies running in care
:26:17. > :26:21.services which are not public companies. We've also got a
:26:22. > :26:24.situation where there's a huge carer crisis here. An old lady
:26:25. > :26:28.situation where there's a huge carer Huntington's disease living in a
:26:29. > :26:32.flat which is not fit for living in and she hasn't had any carers for
:26:33. > :26:35.two weeks. A lady here in a hospital has been in hospital for three
:26:36. > :26:41.months because she can't get out because there are no carers. If you
:26:42. > :26:46.are saying you want to be more fair and just a society, the SNP have got
:26:47. > :26:49.control of health now... You are absolutely right, but...
:26:50. > :26:53.APPLAUSE First of all, I'm not from the SNP
:26:54. > :27:01.and I don't think Joan is either, none of us on the panel here is
:27:02. > :27:05.party people. We are discussing yes or no. But let's take a hook at what
:27:06. > :27:10.is whatting to the Health Service. The point is a very simple one. You
:27:11. > :27:13.keep saying only if Scotland is independent will we get fair
:27:14. > :27:17.treatment. She's saying Scotland has control over health and doesn't have
:27:18. > :27:22.control? We have control over health within the budget we are given. More
:27:23. > :27:27.money available for health, she is saying. But when the vote, if the
:27:28. > :27:34.vote was new, I'll tell you something, the Barnet formula would
:27:35. > :27:38.change hugely and suddenly we'd be in a different health regime than we
:27:39. > :27:40.are at the moment. At the moment, we still have a National Health
:27:41. > :27:47.Service. I would be interested in people's comments down south. A lot
:27:48. > :27:52.of people don't believe they are seeing a Health Service down south.
:27:53. > :27:58.It's a market-run machine with the NHS logo there.
:27:59. > :28:04.What is your reaction? I think when you talk about a market-run NHS in
:28:05. > :28:11.England, right now NHS Highland is modelling in the Health Service on
:28:12. > :28:14.Toyota. They have actually sent people to look at how Toyota runs
:28:15. > :28:21.its business and they are going to run the NHS, or thinking about
:28:22. > :28:29.running the NHS on that model. That gentleman? The person at the
:28:30. > :28:33.very back there. I would like to ask Alan Savage how much research is
:28:34. > :28:37.really done. He talks about credit worthiness and the people that know
:28:38. > :28:42.about this have said Scotland would get a AAA rating so it doesn't seem
:28:43. > :28:45.to suggest that you have read it to it. The UBS report out today said
:28:46. > :28:47.to suggest that you have read it to it. The UBS report out today they
:28:48. > :28:55.wouldn't so you can look at different articles that suit your
:28:56. > :28:59.argument. It isn't clear cut. You've got to off with the currency and if
:29:00. > :29:03.Scotland is that rich, why doesn't it have its own currency, I'm
:29:04. > :29:08.baffled by it. I actually think that Scotland could. Good idea. You at
:29:09. > :29:13.the back there? It doesn't matter what currency we use. Currency is
:29:14. > :29:22.only a contract for exchange of goods. So we could use Bitcoins or
:29:23. > :29:24.whatever, it doesn't matter. APPLAUSE
:29:25. > :29:30.You've been hearing all this? Do you have any reaction to what you have
:29:31. > :29:36.heard? Yes. I want to say this. 31 million people of the United Kingdom
:29:37. > :29:40.pay into the Exchequer. Only 4.2 million people in Scotland could pay
:29:41. > :29:43.for that, that's for the Health Service, that's for all the social
:29:44. > :29:48.services. And the people that suffer most in the country are the poorest.
:29:49. > :29:55.I'm concerned for the poor! Understand! Along with Gordon Brown,
:29:56. > :30:04.I can say this - Scotland can lead and will lead the United Kingdom. I
:30:05. > :30:08.used to play rugby for an academy and I know how never to give up.
:30:09. > :30:20.They said to me, you'll never get in the team and I said "watch me! " And
:30:21. > :30:25.I will give my own life if I want to keep this country together. Let's
:30:26. > :30:34.take P- one more question. Bruce Nielson, please? Is there P- such a
:30:35. > :30:39.thing as independence in Europe? The UK's already subject to the faceless
:30:40. > :30:49.bureaucrats of Brussels, all we have got to do with independence is miss
:30:50. > :30:57.out the middle man? Is there such a thing as independence in Europe?
:30:58. > :31:01.When the Better Together campaign were going on about how we had not
:31:02. > :31:05.been allowed into Europe, various people said, actually, I think we
:31:06. > :31:11.will because they will not turn us down, given how assets. But I have
:31:12. > :31:15.noticed that as UKIP has risen, the Tory party does not talk so much now
:31:16. > :31:18.about Scotland being booted out of Europe, because it might be seen on
:31:19. > :31:25.the other side of the border as an absolute plus that we weren't going
:31:26. > :31:33.to be in Europe any longer. I think we do need some form of European
:31:34. > :31:37.Parliament. I think it could do with some reform. I certainly sink that
:31:38. > :31:43.macro think some of the things they do are crazy. But not quite as crazy
:31:44. > :31:47.as some in my profession would have us believe. I think if there was a
:31:48. > :31:50.referendum tomorrow there might be people who would vote with their
:31:51. > :31:56.heart rather than their head, and they would say we should leave it. I
:31:57. > :32:01.think the European Union will enjoy off. I would be interested to hear
:32:02. > :32:04.what Mr Savage thinks about leaving the union, because I understand most
:32:05. > :32:09.business people would be more than happy to stay in it, whether
:32:10. > :32:19.Scotland is independent, or whether we are together. What is your view?
:32:20. > :32:24.I am not sure what she asked. Would you like to be in or out of the
:32:25. > :32:27.European market I would like to be in the European market. The question
:32:28. > :32:32.is whether there could be genuine independence if you are in the
:32:33. > :32:37.European Union. Without labouring the point on currency, and the
:32:38. > :32:43.gentleman who is going to use the Groat, you are not going to go very
:32:44. > :32:49.heart -- very far on holiday. If you look at the currency issue, if you
:32:50. > :32:54.are using the pound and the Bank of England is going to set the interest
:32:55. > :32:57.rate, by definition you are not an independent country because somebody
:32:58. > :33:00.else is setting the very tool you use to regulate the economy,
:33:01. > :33:08.interest rates, so you are not independent. What it's -- what is
:33:09. > :33:17.your view? I do not think we should have dumped the Commonwealth. What
:33:18. > :33:21.about the Empire? That was the whole point. I was able to vote in the
:33:22. > :33:26.referendum we had into Europe, and I felt at the time, actually I voted
:33:27. > :33:31.we should not go in, because I felt strongly that the Tory party saw
:33:32. > :33:35.that they would go into Europe and take it over and that would replace
:33:36. > :33:39.their union, they would be kingpins in Brussels. When they got there and
:33:40. > :33:46.the French and Germans said no, they did not like it. I do not think
:33:47. > :33:51.there is such a thing as true independence without leaving the UK,
:33:52. > :34:01.leaving Europe, getting completely away from countries like Norway, for
:34:02. > :34:08.example. They are not in the European Union. Are you saying it is
:34:09. > :34:14.a false choice to put to Scotland, to say independent and in the EU?
:34:15. > :34:26.Yes. I would say true independence would be out of the EU. You in the
:34:27. > :34:30.far top row. I think my head and my heart tell me that independence does
:34:31. > :34:34.not mean we have to be out of anything. It does not mean we would
:34:35. > :34:39.stand alone. For me, a personal view, I think it is head and heart.
:34:40. > :34:43.I see that I can be better represented. I can vote for people
:34:44. > :34:45.to be my voice in a Scottish Parliament and to take that voice
:34:46. > :34:55.into Europe, to argue for our interests. I am only 34 but I have
:34:56. > :35:00.been disenfranchised from UK politics, Westminster, for well over
:35:01. > :35:08.ten, 15 years. APPLAUSE
:35:09. > :35:11.This is an opportunity for people like me to engage with politics and
:35:12. > :35:15.get a chance for our voice to be heard, and to feel we have something
:35:16. > :35:20.to offer, to produce, to come up with economic solutions. We want to
:35:21. > :35:25.do that. We want this chance. APPLAUSE
:35:26. > :35:32.We will move away from the independence issue.
:35:33. > :35:44.Just a reminder that you can join the debate by text or Twitter.
:35:45. > :35:55.Let's take a question from another audience member. Are we, as a
:35:56. > :36:00.society, doing enough to protect our children from the people who abuse
:36:01. > :36:07.the power they wield? Are we doing enough to protect our children? My
:36:08. > :36:16.wife was a disclosure carer for her local sports club. There is a lot of
:36:17. > :36:21.work being done at a local community type of level. However, I think your
:36:22. > :36:24.question might be towards looking at Westminster and the recent outrage
:36:25. > :36:29.in terms of missing files and potential paedophilia that went on
:36:30. > :36:35.within the dark rooms of Westminster. That really concerns
:36:36. > :36:40.me. I hope the Metropolitan Police delve down into this case, because I
:36:41. > :36:44.think we have all been really upset with the recent findings and
:36:45. > :36:49.sentencing of Rolf Harris, and of course Cyril Smith, recently. There
:36:50. > :36:54.is an investigation into him. Again, public schools, I understand
:36:55. > :36:57.there are investigations there, and the Roman Catholic education system
:36:58. > :37:01.are being investigated. It is a real concern.
:37:02. > :37:06.are being investigated. It is a real there is a lot of good work being
:37:07. > :37:11.done to protect our youngsters. I would just like to say, why should
:37:12. > :37:14.done to protect our youngsters. I paedophiles be released from prison
:37:15. > :37:22.and given new identities? Should we not know who they are so we can look
:37:23. > :37:26.after our kids? If my paper is to be believed, I
:37:27. > :37:32.read that during the News of the World enquiry there were 200 members
:37:33. > :37:39.of the Metropolitan Police force who were designated as looking into it.
:37:40. > :37:44.This recent one in Westminster, so far there are only 17. Does this
:37:45. > :37:49.sound fair? It sounds like they have already decided to keep it behind
:37:50. > :37:54.closed doors. Joan Burnie, do you agree? I am not sure having an
:37:55. > :37:58.establishment figure heading an enquiry to look into the wrong
:37:59. > :38:04.doings, it is said, of the establishment is necessarily a good
:38:05. > :38:09.thing. I am sure she is an admirable woman and I would say nothing
:38:10. > :38:14.against the former judge. Well, you would, because you have said she is
:38:15. > :38:20.a member of the establishment and would connive in a cover-up, that is
:38:21. > :38:24.what you are implying. I did not say that. I would suggest it is unwise
:38:25. > :38:28.for someone in the establishment to have an examination of the
:38:29. > :38:34.establishment. Because she cannot be objective or because others will
:38:35. > :38:39.think she is not? The perception. But we also have to look at reality.
:38:40. > :38:43.I can speak of a former agony aunt. The reality of child sexual abuse is
:38:44. > :38:47.that we must not forget most of it takes place within the family
:38:48. > :38:50.circle, from family and friends. It is not just within the
:38:51. > :38:57.establishment, within public schools. It is a curse of childhood
:38:58. > :39:01.for children from all backgrounds, not necessarily by MPs and people
:39:02. > :39:06.who are high and mighty. It happens in homes, in towns and villages. And
:39:07. > :39:10.that is what we should remember. We should not get carried away with
:39:11. > :39:13.thinking it only happens in the House of Commons or within the
:39:14. > :39:17.Catholic church or wherever. It is our duty to protect our children and
:39:18. > :39:21.I totally accept what the lady said about the fact that they come out of
:39:22. > :39:26.prison and we do not know where they are. There must be something to do
:39:27. > :39:29.with that, but the overriding thing is to protect our children. Whether
:39:30. > :39:35.this commission will do that, I remain to see. I believe although
:39:36. > :39:38.she is a figure of the establishment, she will use her
:39:39. > :39:44.position to enquire more deeply because of the connection with her
:39:45. > :39:51.brother. To show that she is completely independent. Well, it is
:39:52. > :39:56.a huge question, one that everyone is asking, to go back to your
:39:57. > :40:01.question. I spoke to a friend of mine because I was concerned about
:40:02. > :40:06.this question coming up. Talking to a friend who had worked in social
:40:07. > :40:11.work with children, this is a question of power. It is a question
:40:12. > :40:16.of people wielding inappropriate power and deference to power, people
:40:17. > :40:22.who have a position that they can abuse, literally abuse. And I think
:40:23. > :40:26.this question, the way we are talking earlier about what kind of
:40:27. > :40:29.country wants to live in, surely we want to live in a country that
:40:30. > :40:35.protects its weakest and most vulnerable. We have to get to the
:40:36. > :40:39.bottom of this. Joan is absolutely right. There is huge evidence to
:40:40. > :40:45.show that most abuse happens in families, with people they know,
:40:46. > :40:51.within small areas. But I happen to think we have an awful lot of things
:40:52. > :40:57.wrong in the past, and we need to go back and make amends. The saddest
:40:58. > :41:01.thing about this is that we talk about it and we bring out people in
:41:02. > :41:06.the newspaper, we expose various people, but at the same time there
:41:07. > :41:10.are people who have had abuse done to them who are still hurting, still
:41:11. > :41:15.grieving and still finding it very difficult to move on from something
:41:16. > :41:24.that happened a long, long time ago. And the powerful have got to be made
:41:25. > :41:30.accountable. Just to back up what Ricky has said, one of the ways that
:41:31. > :41:34.a strong society maintains control over these powerful figures is
:41:35. > :41:38.through a free press. It is to be hoped that recent events have meant
:41:39. > :41:44.that the free press in this country is sufficiently strong enough to
:41:45. > :41:50.bring those who bring their power into things like paedophilia. Alan
:41:51. > :41:56.Savage. I agree with Ricky that power corrupts, and people take
:41:57. > :42:02.abuse of power. When they do that with young children, then that is
:42:03. > :42:07.reprehensible. I think you can maybe look at the profile of the people
:42:08. > :42:13.that carry out these acts, and look at ways of maybe spotting them
:42:14. > :42:17.before they do it, taking heed of what they are doing when they do
:42:18. > :42:21.it, and listening to the kids and people that report it and acting
:42:22. > :42:26.more decisively. I think the investigation into it has to be
:42:27. > :42:29.above and beyond anything. It has to be absolutely quick, clear,
:42:30. > :42:35.clinical, and let's get it sorted out and make sure it doesn't happen
:42:36. > :42:39.again in recurring cases. What you make, you said you were of an older
:42:40. > :42:44.generation so you remember the times, of what Norman Tebbit said.
:42:45. > :42:48.He thought there might have been a cover-up because it might have been
:42:49. > :42:52.thought more important in the 1970s to protect the establishment, rather
:42:53. > :42:56.than find wrongdoers. You have no doubt that -- heard the former whip
:42:57. > :43:01.under Ted Heath saying if somebody came in debt, or some sort of
:43:02. > :43:04.trouble with boys, we might try and dampen it down and then they would
:43:05. > :43:10.be our person forever, because they would do what we said. Is that a
:43:11. > :43:16.society you recognise, the way the establishment used to work? You were
:43:17. > :43:21.a journalist. Not only that, but I was married to an MP in the 1970s. I
:43:22. > :43:25.do recognise that that prevailing culture was the way in which
:43:26. > :43:30.Westminster was run, it was very much a male club, and there was a
:43:31. > :43:36.great deal of self protection amongst all parties. I think that in
:43:37. > :43:40.some ways, we didn't want to talk about paedophilia. We didn't want to
:43:41. > :43:47.talk about child abuse. We wanted to brush it under the carpet. And it
:43:48. > :43:51.was not spoken about, so the victims did not speak out and were not
:43:52. > :43:55.believed. I heard what Norman Tebbit said, and I thought he was probably
:43:56. > :44:00.correct about the times in which we live. But that has continued over
:44:01. > :44:05.the years, so that those who perhaps wanted to speak out gradually
:44:06. > :44:11.thought they were not going to be believed. This has gone on and on,
:44:12. > :44:14.and nothing was done. To this day, although the culture has changed,
:44:15. > :44:21.the feeling in those who have been abused has not changed. I agree with
:44:22. > :44:25.what Joan has said, but here is another thing. I think it is
:44:26. > :44:30.important in all of this that hysteria does not break out. When
:44:31. > :44:33.hysteria breaks out over this, you end up with people marching through
:44:34. > :44:38.housing estates and throwing people out, and getting the wrong person.
:44:39. > :44:42.Suddenly we had a whole storm last weekend of what someone might have
:44:43. > :44:46.said. Get to the truth, find it out, and let's not have panic because I
:44:47. > :44:51.don't think that is going to help vulnerable children, or people who
:44:52. > :45:03.have been abused. And that, we all think, I am sure, is what we are
:45:04. > :45:07.trying to do. Obviously no-one wants to create panic but the law needs to
:45:08. > :45:11.change because right now it's not illegal not to tell someone that you
:45:12. > :45:16.suspect a child is being abused. You could be a teacher and suspect but
:45:17. > :45:18.you can keep it to yourself and that's kind of where the problem
:45:19. > :45:27.comes, eight out of ten are abused that's kind of where the problem
:45:28. > :45:32.Another question. I would like to take a couple more before I finish.
:45:33. > :45:39.Let's deal with this one from Robert Smith, please? Emergency data laws
:45:40. > :45:44.are being rushed through unchallenged. Is it a step towards a
:45:45. > :45:47.big brother society? This is the news today that the Government,
:45:48. > :45:53.coalition and opposition are going ahead with the law so that phone
:45:54. > :46:02.records can be tapped as a result of the EU saying they can't be? What do
:46:03. > :46:07.you make of that? I used the term drawing a line and it's where you
:46:08. > :46:11.draw a line under intrusion and privacy and I think we'd all agree
:46:12. > :46:15.street cameras have been a fantastic idea and have prevented a lot of
:46:16. > :46:20.crime and traced a lot of crime. Street cameras is an invasion of
:46:21. > :46:24.privacy because you are seen on a random camera that you are not aware
:46:25. > :46:28.of. On the subject of tracking phone records and data, I would probably
:46:29. > :46:33.agree that we need to to that because on the last subject, you're
:46:34. > :46:37.going to catch all sorts of issues, like paedophilia and anything that
:46:38. > :46:39.we can use to stamp out such abuses, even though it's invasions
:46:40. > :46:44.we can use to stamp out such abuses, privacy, at the end it justifies a
:46:45. > :46:49.means. So not big brother. Scott Hastings? It's in terms of the
:46:50. > :46:54.record-keeping of texts and numbers as well. If the powers-that-be have
:46:55. > :46:59.to investigate further, they have to apply for a warrant and only then
:47:00. > :47:04.can they then listen in and tap in to that communication. So I'm all
:47:05. > :47:10.right about that. If somebody wants to hang on to a number I phoned
:47:11. > :47:13.today, that's fine by me and if it's held for 16 months, it's fine by me.
:47:14. > :47:16.I'm not doing anything wrong. It's held for 16 months, it's fine by me.
:47:17. > :47:21.the people that are doing something wrong through texts and phone calls
:47:22. > :47:25.that should be worried. It's not an invasion of civil liberties. We live
:47:26. > :47:31.in a changing society and a different world and that means
:47:32. > :47:36.different circumstances. Ricky Ross? Two issues here. First of all, the
:47:37. > :47:41.yieshth issue Scott talked about, but before we even get to that, this
:47:42. > :47:45.is something that's been brought in at very short notice. Towards a
:47:46. > :47:49.weekend. I'm here and many people are here to hopefully get rid of
:47:50. > :47:57.being governed by Westminster, but while we've got it, it's still a
:47:58. > :48:00.democratic system, MPs and they are there to scrutinise legislation. You
:48:01. > :48:03.don't make laws and build a great society by rushing something
:48:04. > :48:06.through. Why would the opposition agree to it? You
:48:07. > :48:10.through. Why would the opposition to ask them, not me. But I'll tell
:48:11. > :48:12.you this, I don't think it's a great idea to bring through such
:48:13. > :48:16.you this, I don't think it's a great legislation and not allowing people
:48:17. > :48:26.to really look at what it means. It creates bad laws and bad laws are
:48:27. > :48:28.usually made in haste. APPLAUSE
:48:29. > :48:33.Just a wee point there. Ricky is going on about the law being rushed
:48:34. > :48:36.through but if you go through airport security, you are going to
:48:37. > :48:39.have to get your I pod out, turn your battery on, things change. We
:48:40. > :48:44.have to react to the threats in society, so I'm afraid you're wrong.
:48:45. > :48:51.I want to keep moving to get another question in. You, Sir, in the blue?
:48:52. > :49:00.We now live in a society which the markets are free and the people are
:49:01. > :49:03.controlled, rather than vice versa. Sometimes with rushed legislation of
:49:04. > :49:08.unintended consequences, what happens if it goes further? Who
:49:09. > :49:14.becomes the enemy? Now we'd say it's benign.
:49:15. > :49:19.Who is going to decide who is to be spooked? Who is to be listened to?
:49:20. > :49:25.You, Sir, in the pink? I believe this was brought through because of
:49:26. > :49:30.a ruling by the European Court of Human Court of Human Rights.
:49:31. > :49:33.For some reason, the Government realised that if they lost all that
:49:34. > :49:36.data there could be a problem. It comes back to the same thing, if
:49:37. > :49:41.you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about.
:49:42. > :49:47.Robert Smith, do you want to come in before we go? It's the same argument
:49:48. > :49:53.that comes back about if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't
:49:54. > :49:57.worry. Just the fact that somebody's looking makes me uncomfortable in
:49:58. > :50:01.the first place. Back to where we started. Donald
:50:02. > :50:05.McKenzie, please? We need to be able to live together
:50:06. > :50:09.after the referendum. What can be done to take some of the
:50:10. > :50:12.unpleasantness out of the debate. Explain the unpleasantness, in your
:50:13. > :50:16.view? There have been many instances where people have been attacked for
:50:17. > :50:21.stating their opinion that they want to keep the United Kingdom. One
:50:22. > :50:25.person was pounced on by the nationalists. Others in Scotland
:50:26. > :50:29.who've expressed that opinion have been jumped on. Mr Savage himself
:50:30. > :50:37.has been criticised by the SNP for stating that he thinks we'd be
:50:38. > :50:41.better together. Alan Savage? The unmeantness in the debate is the
:50:42. > :50:45.first thin and secondly, how will Scotland live with it after the
:50:46. > :50:51.referendum? It's a fundamental issue, as we all agree, whether a
:50:52. > :50:55.country gets independence, and it's, I believe that nationalism is
:50:56. > :51:00.devisive. Once you start the debate, you divide a country into two
:51:01. > :51:07.factions. So you've got a real problem in having the debate. I
:51:08. > :51:11.personally think that the Scottish Government I think spends ?37
:51:12. > :51:16.billion a year and has done for the last seven years, building bridge
:51:17. > :51:22.systems and tram systems when it could have spent money on other
:51:23. > :51:25.issues, so it's had some lie lens to divert to other issues. The problem
:51:26. > :51:29.is, at the end of the day, you can be patriotic but you don't have to
:51:30. > :51:34.be nationalistic. You can be proud of your country, but you don't have
:51:35. > :51:39.to be berate other people, the English in particular. I think they
:51:40. > :51:42.have disguised it now into Westminster, all the bogeymen are
:51:43. > :51:53.from Westminster when it's the English that are the problem.
:51:54. > :51:59.That's fundamentally wrong. Well, I happen to be English, I
:52:00. > :52:03.don't know if you noticed. I think there will be... Let him speak
:52:04. > :52:07.first? I think there will be a lot of things to sort out, whether the
:52:08. > :52:12.vote goes yes or no, and I think everybody's going to have to work
:52:13. > :52:17.together to pull the country back. You are implying that the abuse is
:52:18. > :52:24.only one way. I never said that. No, no, you are implying that. I never
:52:25. > :52:30.said that. You said it's only one way. There is abuse. Of course there
:52:31. > :52:36.is because this is the Internet age. I was amazed when Phil Neville was
:52:37. > :52:40.abused because of his commentary wasn't done very well on the World
:52:41. > :52:43.Cup, that somebody didn't blame that on the SNP.
:52:44. > :52:47.LAUGHTER We live in an age where there are
:52:48. > :52:51.certain people who go online and say the most appalling things because
:52:52. > :52:56.it's anonymous and wrong and I would not condone it onner they are side.
:52:57. > :53:01.But to assume that it's only a one-side issue is wrong. What will
:53:02. > :53:05.happen after the referendum, yes or no is the people will continue to
:53:06. > :53:09.live together. I didn't answer the second part of the question. The
:53:10. > :53:14.second part of the question was to do with abuse and the gentleman said
:53:15. > :53:18.there that I'd been criticised. I'm not on social media, I don't believe
:53:19. > :53:22.in it, enever use it. So whatever people are calling me through that
:53:23. > :53:30.medium, I don't know about. You in blue there, the open-neck
:53:31. > :53:34.shirt? Two quick points. I agree completely with what Joan said in
:53:35. > :53:39.that the abuse is two ways. I myself a few weeks back was targeted on
:53:40. > :53:46.Facebook simply because I voiced my support for an SNP spokesman on
:53:47. > :53:51.Question Time some time ago. Second of all, I think that yes, while
:53:52. > :53:56.there have been attacks on both sides, overall, it's still a small
:53:57. > :54:00.minority. I think I've heard debates, conversations with close
:54:01. > :54:06.friends and come plait strangers and nine times out of ten, no, actually,
:54:07. > :54:08.ten times out of ten, it's not ended in unpleasantness and bitterness.
:54:09. > :54:16.The majority of people want a peaceful debate.
:54:17. > :54:21.APPLAUSE The question is what it's happening?
:54:22. > :54:25.Funnily enough, I do have a Twitter account. I was Tweeting Ricky
:54:26. > :54:30.yesterday and we were getting abused by the cyber keyboard warriors! Now,
:54:31. > :54:33.one of the reasons I'm sitting on this particular panel tonight is
:54:34. > :54:36.that, as you have heard, I'm a passionate Scotsman and it's about
:54:37. > :54:41.taking the heat out of the debate. I don't know about the audience, but I
:54:42. > :54:50.feel things are chaining and I know we appreciate in terms of the
:54:51. > :54:56.donations donations that have gone into the campaign, and the high
:54:57. > :55:00.level awareness of what is happening has been taken out. We are having a
:55:01. > :55:04.debate tonight. The young man said he's having a sensible debate with
:55:05. > :55:08.lots of other people and quite rightly should be. In answer to the
:55:09. > :55:12.gentleman's question about what would happen if it's a no-vote, I
:55:13. > :55:15.believe more fiscal powers will happen for Scotland and Scotland
:55:16. > :55:18.will move on as a country. The Liberal Democrats, the Scottish
:55:19. > :55:22.Labour and the Conservatives have said they wish to have more fiscal
:55:23. > :55:26.power to take the country on to that next step. As far as I'm concerned,
:55:27. > :55:30.that is a good enough step for me. It doesn't have to be apart from the
:55:31. > :55:36.rest of the United Kingdom, it can be together.
:55:37. > :55:40.You, Sir? Just going back to the pointer making about being online.
:55:41. > :55:44.We've had some revelations this week, five businesses saying they
:55:45. > :55:48.felt intimidated by the Scottish Government that they coulden put
:55:49. > :55:51.across their views about the independence debate because they
:55:52. > :55:53.felt pressurised by a Scottish Government not to do so. That's more
:55:54. > :55:57.worrying to Government not to do so. That's more
:55:58. > :56:00.in a dark bedroom typing things on a laptop. That's taking it to another
:56:01. > :56:05.level. It's quite worrying. Can you laptop. That's taking it to another
:56:06. > :56:09.just the people in laptop. That's taking it to another
:56:10. > :56:12.sending big messages to each other, but big businesses complaining that
:56:13. > :56:19.they are being influenced or shut up really? Well, it would be news to
:56:20. > :56:24.most of us. People say that, but I honestly have not seen any evidence
:56:25. > :56:28.of that happening. Now, you were talking about the story that came
:56:29. > :56:32.out earlier this week, but the gentleman asked a question in the
:56:33. > :56:35.first place, he asked a question that assumed it was from one side,
:56:36. > :56:37.but you also asked the other question, how will it be on the
:56:38. > :56:42.19th? I totally agree with Scott question, how will it be on the
:56:43. > :56:46.Joan and Alan, I think we'll pick ourselves up and move on because we
:56:47. > :56:48.have been through things. But here is the most shocking
:56:49. > :56:51.have been through things. But here about the Scottish independence
:56:52. > :56:53.debate is, we are doing it very civilly. Scott's right, we were
:56:54. > :56:58.called all sorts of civilly. Scott's right, we were
:56:59. > :57:01.just for being unknowns or light weights. It was quite nice! Could
:57:02. > :57:08.have been heavyweights and could have been insulting! But the fact
:57:09. > :57:11.is, it's a very civilised debate. Alex Massey, the blogger, no fan of
:57:12. > :57:14.independence wrote the most shocking thing about the independence debate
:57:15. > :57:16.independence wrote the most shocking is we are all getting on with
:57:17. > :57:20.independence wrote the most shocking talking to each other and listening
:57:21. > :57:25.is the reality of it. Thank you very much.
:57:26. > :57:27.APPLAUSE Our hour