0:00:02 > 0:00:04We're in Kelso, in the Borders, with an audience from
0:00:04 > 0:00:07both the English and Scottish sides of that border,
0:00:07 > 0:00:08and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19And welcome back to you at home and to our audience here,
0:00:19 > 0:00:21and of course, to our panel tonight.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24The Conservative chairman of the Defence Select Committee,
0:00:24 > 0:00:27the MP for Penrith and the border, Rory Stewart.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31Labour's Shadow Attorney General, Emily Thornberry.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33The Finance Secretary in the Scottish Government,
0:00:33 > 0:00:35John Swinney of the SNP.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Columnist for the Scotsman, Lesley Riddoch.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42And the broadcaster and Daily Mail and Independent columnist,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Janet Street-Porter.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54APPLAUSE
0:00:54 > 0:00:58And just before we go to the first question, you can, as ever,
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0:01:09 > 0:01:12Right, let's have our first question of the season,
0:01:12 > 0:01:15which is from Jeanette Aitchison, please.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Does the panel believe the war against IS
0:01:18 > 0:01:19will be won by airstrikes alone?
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Will it be won by airstrikes alone?
0:01:21 > 0:01:24The vote, of course, being in the House of Commons tomorrow.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27- Emily Thornberry?- No, it won't be won by airstrikes alone.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30I have to say, I think there are probably a large number of the public
0:01:30 > 0:01:33who will be thinking to themselves, "Why are we going back into the
0:01:33 > 0:01:36"Middle East and why, particularly, are we going back into Iraq?"
0:01:36 > 0:01:38And, as one of the two million people
0:01:38 > 0:01:40who demonstrated against the war on Iraq,
0:01:40 > 0:01:42I have some sympathy in that.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44But I think it is a very different situation
0:01:44 > 0:01:46that we're talking about now.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49ISIS is a horrible, murderous organisation.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51It is growing in the centre of Iraq
0:01:51 > 0:01:55and Iraq is now a newly democratic country.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59It is a weak democratic country and it can basically do without
0:01:59 > 0:02:03this terrible caliphate that is trying to establish itself, that is
0:02:03 > 0:02:07kidnapping young girls, that is beheading British hostages.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11I mean, we simply cannot allow it to continue.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15And so, we need to do it, I think, in a multilateral way.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17We have to have the support of the region.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20We have to have an idea of what we're doing and why we're doing it.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Airstrikes by themselves will not be sufficient.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26I think the reason that Ed Miliband, leader of my party,
0:02:26 > 0:02:29has decided that it's appropriate at this stage
0:02:29 > 0:02:33for us to have a limited involvement in this is that we will be doing it
0:02:33 > 0:02:35as part of an international team.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39We have been asked by Iraq for help, so it's a clear legal basis,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42and there will be ground troops, but they won't be ours.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44So, it'll be the Iraqis and the Kurds
0:02:44 > 0:02:46who will be doing the work on the ground
0:02:46 > 0:02:49and we will give limited help by way of airstrikes.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51But we have to beat them.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53Rory Stewart?
0:02:53 > 0:02:56As you say, airstrikes are not going to be able to do it on their own.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00What you can do with airstrikes is you can contain the threat.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04When I was in Iraq about three weeks ago, I was on the Kurdish front-line
0:03:04 > 0:03:07and I could see directly what the airstrikes had done.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10Essentially, the Islamic State had advanced.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13They'd been hit from the air and they'd retreated
0:03:13 > 0:03:17and that meant nearly 350,000 refugees that you could see then
0:03:17 > 0:03:21living in half completed buildings, living under bridges,
0:03:21 > 0:03:25trying to set up tents on areas of waste ground, protected.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27In other words, you can prevent
0:03:27 > 0:03:29or you can massively reduce the likelihood
0:03:29 > 0:03:32of the Islamic State advancing with airstrikes.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34But in order to deal with them properly,
0:03:34 > 0:03:38you need a much, much more ambitious political solution,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41which has got to bring in Turkey, it's got to bring in Iran,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44it's got to bring in the Gulf, and that's what we don't yet have.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47That's where Britain could show the sort of leadership,
0:03:47 > 0:03:49that's where the ingenuity is required.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53So, do you think we should be sending a few aeroplanes when
0:03:53 > 0:03:56there are many other countries that have aeroplanes
0:03:56 > 0:03:57and can do the airstrikes?
0:03:57 > 0:04:00I think we should, because I think it will do some good
0:04:00 > 0:04:03in terms of protecting the areas that haven't yet been attacked.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06But as you say, it's going to be a small contribution.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09The Belgians are there, the Dutch are there, the Danes are there,
0:04:09 > 0:04:11the Americans are there. The big question, the big picture,
0:04:11 > 0:04:14is where Britain really can get involved,
0:04:14 > 0:04:15is in the diplomatic, political piece.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17We haven't seen movement on that yet.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19And one other thing, if IS moves in,
0:04:19 > 0:04:23or they're under attack and move into Syria,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26does that give us the right to bomb in Syria?
0:04:26 > 0:04:29- Not at the moment. - The Americans are doing it.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Absolutely. The parliamentary vote is absolutely limited to Iraq.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35Because the Baghdad government has asked us in,
0:04:35 > 0:04:37as Emily as a lawyer will comment on this as well.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Essentially, the resolution is to support attacks in Iraq.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43If they move into Syria, that isn't what Parliament,
0:04:43 > 0:04:44that's not what we will be voting on.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46John Swinney, what's your view?
0:04:46 > 0:04:49I think, in answer to the question that Jeanette asked
0:04:49 > 0:04:54at the beginning, I don't think air strikes alone will solve this issue.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58I think there is a very deep problem, an unbearable problem,
0:04:58 > 0:05:02that ISIS has created and the behaviour of ISIS has created,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05and we've seen the terrible atrocities
0:05:05 > 0:05:07that have affected individual hostages.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10One of the hostages that sadly lost his life, David Haines,
0:05:10 > 0:05:14was brought up in the city that I represent, the city of Perth.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17So this is a despicable set of actions.
0:05:17 > 0:05:22So, their behaviour merits intervention and the fact that
0:05:22 > 0:05:26the Iraqi government has requested that intervention,
0:05:26 > 0:05:29I think makes this a very different situation to the situation that -
0:05:29 > 0:05:34I shared entirely Emily's perspective on the 2003 invasion -
0:05:34 > 0:05:36but I think what is of equal importance
0:05:36 > 0:05:38is that there has to be a focus
0:05:38 > 0:05:41on the political resolution of these issues,
0:05:41 > 0:05:45which is a much wider range of interventions
0:05:45 > 0:05:50or approaches in the Middle East to try to create a greater degree
0:05:50 > 0:05:53of stability than a set of airstrikes which might,
0:05:53 > 0:05:58as Rory suggests, contain a particular problem in one locality,
0:05:58 > 0:06:03but there is a much more deeply set problem which has to be addressed
0:06:03 > 0:06:07and which more than ten years of intervention in the Middle East
0:06:07 > 0:06:11has so far failed to make any discernible progress
0:06:11 > 0:06:13to try to create a more peaceful part of the world than it was
0:06:13 > 0:06:16before we started all of this external intervention
0:06:16 > 0:06:17all those years ago.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19The person over there, on the right.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22Isn't it really better, as Rory says,
0:06:22 > 0:06:26we go down the diplomatic route and rather than using violence -
0:06:26 > 0:06:28I'm back on violence again -
0:06:28 > 0:06:31with war, and that type of thing,
0:06:31 > 0:06:37we're not going to achieve anything other than a limited solution
0:06:37 > 0:06:41where they're going to go in, get a little bit of a battering,
0:06:41 > 0:06:43then they're going to go and hide again,
0:06:43 > 0:06:45then they're going to come out and start again.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47Whereas if we go in and use the regional powers -
0:06:47 > 0:06:55Iran, use Saudi Arabia, use Turkey, use Egypt, and even Israel,
0:06:55 > 0:06:58and get them there and basically twist their arms,
0:06:58 > 0:07:02get the US to start twisting Israel's arm,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05get Russia to start twisting Iran's arm...
0:07:05 > 0:07:07You're talking about a ground war against IS?
0:07:07 > 0:07:10No, I'm talking about any form of war against IS.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12I'm talking about put the pressure on them
0:07:12 > 0:07:14through the diplomatic reasons.
0:07:14 > 0:07:19I mean, really staying away from the physical, hot war.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21And you, sir, up there?
0:07:21 > 0:07:24My point is that you're talking about all the atrocities
0:07:24 > 0:07:28that happened in the Middle East, but where was any of this
0:07:28 > 0:07:31when Israel rolled into Palestine?
0:07:31 > 0:07:34There was no, "We should bomb Israel."
0:07:34 > 0:07:37They were doing just as bad things as IS are doing now.
0:07:37 > 0:07:43There was no, like, nothing said, and it seems now that
0:07:43 > 0:07:47it's just because we have vested interests in Iraq
0:07:47 > 0:07:51that we're talking about bombing, airstrikes.
0:07:51 > 0:07:52All right, Janet Street-Porter?
0:07:52 > 0:07:55APPLAUSE
0:07:58 > 0:08:01Well, I couldn't agree more, because I can't see how what is
0:08:01 > 0:08:05essentially a religious war would be solved by an airstrike.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10It's just the wrong way of combating it and what I'm worried about,
0:08:10 > 0:08:13two things. First of all, about mission creep,
0:08:13 > 0:08:16which we have seen over and over again,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19and secondly, I'm worried about the fact that
0:08:19 > 0:08:21you're dealing with religious fanatics
0:08:21 > 0:08:24and we're giving them airtime by talking continuously
0:08:24 > 0:08:27about all the atrocities they are committing.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31By even talking about them and publishing them on the media,
0:08:31 > 0:08:34we're giving them the oxygen.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37And also, if we go ahead with these airstrikes,
0:08:37 > 0:08:41you can't tell me that innocent civilians will not be hit.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45And the first time that an innocent civilian is hit,
0:08:45 > 0:08:48then that's a convert to their side.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50They will move into civilian areas.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52It will be impossible to target these strikes so that
0:08:52 > 0:08:55they only hit the people that you want to hit.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58There's no track record of that achieving it.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01And as you say, look at the war between Israel and Hamas.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04The bombing starts, it stops, it starts,
0:09:04 > 0:09:08it stops and the two sides are entrenched in a religious war.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12And if we look back to the IRA campaigns, let's cast our mind back.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15I worked on Fleet Street during the '70s,
0:09:15 > 0:09:17during the letter bomb campaigns,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19and I was there when they bombed the Old Bailey.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23In the end, that religious war, and it was a religious war,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26only ended through people deciding to talk,
0:09:26 > 0:09:31and I'm absolutely, profoundly against airstrikes.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34APPLAUSE
0:09:35 > 0:09:39Just picking one point up from the many you made, are you saying
0:09:39 > 0:09:43that the beheading of Mr Haines, for instance,
0:09:43 > 0:09:46should not have been reported because it gave publicity?
0:09:46 > 0:09:50It should be reported but I think we have to control
0:09:50 > 0:09:54and exercise restraint in how we talk about it and how we report it.
0:09:54 > 0:09:59Of course, my condolences go out to his family and it's a shocking event.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03But other things have happened like this in the past.
0:10:03 > 0:10:08They happened in northern Nigeria, when all those girls were abducted.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12The world is in the grip of religious wars on many fronts.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15We'll come back on this. I will come to you, Lesley.
0:10:15 > 0:10:16Just very quickly,
0:10:16 > 0:10:20I think it is a deeply dangerous and horrifying situation
0:10:20 > 0:10:22and I think what worries me a little bit,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25and I have sympathy with what you're saying about airstrikes,
0:10:25 > 0:10:26but what would be very worrying is if
0:10:26 > 0:10:29we started to say this is none of our business.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31If this just became an excuse for doing nothing.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34Rory, I am not saying it's none of my business.
0:10:34 > 0:10:35I am saying it IS my business.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39I care, but I don't think that you meet force with force.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42In which case, the challenge is to really put the weight behind
0:10:42 > 0:10:45that political and diplomatic stuff. We're hearing a lot about it.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48Nobody's doing anything. We need diplomats on the ground,
0:10:48 > 0:10:50we need to really focus on working out
0:10:50 > 0:10:52how you get Iran and Saudi Arabia talking to each other,
0:10:52 > 0:10:54which seems almost impossible at the moment.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57So, let's be energetic, let's be committed,
0:10:57 > 0:10:59not let's use this as an excuse for inaction.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01And can you talk to IS?
0:11:01 > 0:11:02Very, very difficult.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06- I mean, that's what... - I don't think...
0:11:06 > 0:11:08..circumventing, no, surrounding them with states,
0:11:08 > 0:11:11all talking about diplomacy, isn't going to do anything.
0:11:11 > 0:11:12I don't think that's the answer.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15The answer is to talk to the Sunni people on the ground in IS territory
0:11:15 > 0:11:18and make sure you talk to the neighbours. The oxygen is the neighbours.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22They're going back and forth across borders and getting money from the neighbours.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24- Lesley Riddoch? - Yes, that's a very good point.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26You know, we were hearing earlier tonight
0:11:26 > 0:11:28that Saudi Arabia apparently has 700 jets.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32You know, how many are being mobilised in this yet?
0:11:32 > 0:11:35I don't think any. There's question marks, actually,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37about some of that coalition of the willing, if you like,
0:11:37 > 0:11:41and their support, in fact, for some of the insurgents
0:11:41 > 0:11:43that we're currently having to face.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46I know there's an argument that, you know, your enemy's friend and so on,
0:11:46 > 0:11:50but I think we've got to a stage here where this doesn't feel stable
0:11:50 > 0:11:53and we were hearing about intervention to create stability.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57I'm not sure that many of the interventions we've made recently
0:11:57 > 0:11:59have created stability at all.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02If we were asking some tough questions here,
0:12:02 > 0:12:06will intervention, will airstrikes help the hostages?
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Will they help British citizens be more safe in the world?
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Will they help the people who are currently being oppressed?
0:12:12 > 0:12:14And have we got an exit strategy?
0:12:14 > 0:12:17And currently, I'm not hearing answers to any of that
0:12:17 > 0:12:19and I'm puzzled, as a sort of bystander,
0:12:19 > 0:12:21about where the speed and the need
0:12:21 > 0:12:25for this quick resolution in Westminster tomorrow has come from.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Because I don't think the wider public here are ready for
0:12:28 > 0:12:32the notion that we are on the eve of a third Iraq war.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34Are we?
0:12:34 > 0:12:36APPLAUSE
0:12:36 > 0:12:37The man, there. You, sir.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41Does anybody in the panel think we left Iraq too early when we did?
0:12:41 > 0:12:45Because I was there in 2003 and I was serving in the REME and
0:12:45 > 0:12:49we seen and felt the power vacuum when we took Saddam out.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50We left there way too early.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54Unlike Afghanistan - we left there when we established the army who,
0:12:54 > 0:12:58in comparison to the Iraqi army, were demoralised after two Gulf Wars.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01Do you not think we left it a bit too early before leaving?
0:13:01 > 0:13:05- Is that your view? - Yeah.- Yes. And you, sir, up there?
0:13:05 > 0:13:06Yes, person up there on the right?
0:13:06 > 0:13:09I don't think we should ever have been there in the first place
0:13:09 > 0:13:12and we've created this situation by an illegal war.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15It's been proven there were no weapons of mass destruction,
0:13:15 > 0:13:16we should never have been there,
0:13:16 > 0:13:20and how does more intervention and more intervention...
0:13:20 > 0:13:22and where do you draw the line?
0:13:22 > 0:13:24And why countries that have no oil,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27who have terrible humanitarian situations,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29there's no need for airstrikes?
0:13:29 > 0:13:32Why is it always the country with oil
0:13:32 > 0:13:35that these airstrikes and intervention has to happen?
0:13:35 > 0:13:39APPLAUSE
0:13:39 > 0:13:43I hear what everybody's been saying and whilst I'm not for violence,
0:13:43 > 0:13:46in order to make IS come to the table,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48you have to meet them with force.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52They will not talk until they're made to talk
0:13:52 > 0:13:56and one way of doing it is by hitting them where it hurts.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58Emily, you want to come back in.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02I think I want to answer the lady in purple at the top there,
0:14:02 > 0:14:06because I think the point you make is very powerful.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08But I think there is an answer to it.
0:14:08 > 0:14:09I think the first thing is,
0:14:09 > 0:14:12it's not a question of being able to negotiate with ISIS
0:14:12 > 0:14:15and being able to come to some sort of accommodation with them.
0:14:15 > 0:14:20I think they're a despicable regime that is a...
0:14:20 > 0:14:25That is... That brings the idea of Islam into ill repute.
0:14:25 > 0:14:30It's just... It's an appalling definition of Islam
0:14:30 > 0:14:31and it is an insult.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35I think they have found root in Iraq
0:14:35 > 0:14:39because, I think you're right, I think that as a result of the war,
0:14:39 > 0:14:40the country was destabilised.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43I think there was an attempt made to set up a democracy
0:14:43 > 0:14:46but the democracy was not properly inclusive.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50The Sunnis certainly felt they weren't included in that democracy.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53It then left a vacuum that ISIS has been able to walk into.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57The answer has to be, at the end of the day, politics,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00and you have to have a country that will reflect all the different people
0:15:00 > 0:15:04and therefore, you know, Rory's right, that we need to make sure
0:15:04 > 0:15:08the power brokers in the area are involved in this.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10But you know, they are involved in Syria
0:15:10 > 0:15:13and they have been involved in the airstrikes in Syria,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15because they know as well as we all know
0:15:15 > 0:15:18that actually, ISIS destabilises the whole region
0:15:18 > 0:15:21and is a threat to world order. I cannot overstate this.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25Just very quickly on this gentleman, here.
0:15:25 > 0:15:26Airstrikes are necessary.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28They're not the answer to everything,
0:15:28 > 0:15:31they're not going to defeat it, but they are necessary.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33If you stand there on that front line
0:15:33 > 0:15:35between the Islamic State and the Kurds,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38if you see 400,000 refugees exposed,
0:15:38 > 0:15:42if you see people flooding out of Erbil, if you see the tanks,
0:15:42 > 0:15:46or, as was happening, Humvees advancing along those roads,
0:15:46 > 0:15:49it would be very irresponsible not to provide the protection to
0:15:49 > 0:15:53the civilian population, which we can through air strikes.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57But I think the point that was being made there...
0:15:57 > 0:15:59The point that was being made there was, what do we see?
0:15:59 > 0:16:02We could be seeing so many tragedies around the world.
0:16:02 > 0:16:03We could have been seeing
0:16:03 > 0:16:07the Syrian children who were gassed by their own leader.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10We didn't act at that point. There was a Commons vote.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12EMILY THORNBERRY: But there was a clear reason for that!
0:16:12 > 0:16:15LESLEY RIDDOCH: We're continually looking at atrocities across the world
0:16:15 > 0:16:18and we're being very selective, I agree with the lady over there.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21EMILY THORNBERRY: But the important thing is to only take action
0:16:21 > 0:16:23where you can make a difference by doing it.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27I agree with you that you don't say, "We must do something just in order
0:16:27 > 0:16:30"to be seen to be doing something," which my view was.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33That's what Cameron attempted to do with Syria last year.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36LESLEY RIDDOCH: Would it make British citizens more safe to intervene now?
0:16:36 > 0:16:38EMILY THORNBERRY: I think it does, in the end,
0:16:38 > 0:16:40and I think it makes the world a safer place.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44I think that the best way to get rid of the chemical weapons in Syria,
0:16:44 > 0:16:46what happened, was by negotiation.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48And if there is any way of negotiating,
0:16:48 > 0:16:51- that of course has to be our first plan.- John Swinney?
0:16:51 > 0:16:52I think the point the lady makes at the back
0:16:52 > 0:16:55is one of the most critical points that has to be wrestled with
0:16:55 > 0:16:57in the House of Commons debate tomorrow.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Because it cannot just be about airstrikes.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02It has to be about, how do we,
0:17:02 > 0:17:07by working with a whole variety of different states in that area,
0:17:07 > 0:17:09create something resembling stability?
0:17:09 > 0:17:13Which we weren't able to create by the military intervention in 2003.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16And the gentleman over here made a point,
0:17:16 > 0:17:19about the conduct of the military operations
0:17:19 > 0:17:21and the exit from the military operation.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23And we left behind us, in Iraq,
0:17:23 > 0:17:27and I was against us going to Iraq in the first place in 2003,
0:17:27 > 0:17:30we left behind us a very unstable situation
0:17:30 > 0:17:32and whatever action is taken
0:17:32 > 0:17:36as a consequence of the House of Commons vote tomorrow,
0:17:36 > 0:17:39there must be as much attention placed on resolving
0:17:39 > 0:17:42and creating stability in that area
0:17:42 > 0:17:44as taking a decision to embark on airstrikes,
0:17:44 > 0:17:47if that is the decision that's taken tomorrow.
0:17:47 > 0:17:48We'll move on to another question.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52Natasha Robertson, please. Natasha Robertson.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54Last week, Alex Salmond said,
0:17:54 > 0:17:58"The campaign continues and the dream shall never die."
0:17:58 > 0:18:03When will the SNP accept the "no" result as final and permanent?
0:18:03 > 0:18:04Scotland...
0:18:04 > 0:18:07APPLAUSE
0:18:11 > 0:18:12Lesley Riddoch?
0:18:12 > 0:18:15Well, far be it from me to sort of quibble with the question,
0:18:15 > 0:18:20in a way, but it wasn't just the SNP who voted for independence.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24I know that there's been a huge rush, apparently 65,000 members now,
0:18:24 > 0:18:28joining the SNP, but there were 1.6 million people
0:18:28 > 0:18:31who voted for independence, like myself.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33I'm not a member of that party.
0:18:33 > 0:18:38Now, I do hear what you're saying. "Yes" lost. We quite get that.
0:18:38 > 0:18:4145% did not win that referendum.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45And yet, the people who were hugely involved over a period of years,
0:18:45 > 0:18:48everyone, I think, has agreed, the level of activism there was,
0:18:48 > 0:18:51the commitment, the imagination, the friendship, the camaraderie,
0:18:51 > 0:18:55to me it was actually, and I know this is possibly a bit strange,
0:18:55 > 0:19:00it was the best year of my life from the point of view of the humanity,
0:19:00 > 0:19:02the optimism that was generated.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07Anyone who was a part of that, and I quite appreciate not everybody was,
0:19:07 > 0:19:12but if you were a part of that, it's so precious, it's so unusual
0:19:12 > 0:19:15that you really feel you do not want to see that go,
0:19:15 > 0:19:18particularly younger people, folk in estates,
0:19:18 > 0:19:20people who are not usually involved.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24APPLAUSE
0:19:24 > 0:19:27Lesley, when you say you don't want to see it go,
0:19:27 > 0:19:30do you mean the camaraderie or do you mean the issue?
0:19:30 > 0:19:33I mean the entirety of that. Just come to the issue, yes.
0:19:33 > 0:19:37I mean clearly, the vote for independence was lost,
0:19:37 > 0:19:41but now we have this series of promises from the Three Tenors,
0:19:41 > 0:19:44as they were charitably called, who have yet to deliver,
0:19:44 > 0:19:46and perhaps we'll go on to that.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48But it looks like it can be very, very difficult
0:19:48 > 0:19:50for that delivery to come.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53We were given a blank cheque in Scotland.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55There was no details, no costs,
0:19:55 > 0:19:57no detail at all to what devo max might be,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00so actually, a lot of us who were involved in "yes"
0:20:00 > 0:20:03would like to go in and write on that blank cheque.
0:20:03 > 0:20:08We want maximum powers, we want full fiscal responsibility in Scotland
0:20:08 > 0:20:10to become the responsible country
0:20:10 > 0:20:13that much of the rest of England wants us to be,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16raising and spending taxes, the lot of it.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18APPLAUSE
0:20:22 > 0:20:26When will the issue of independence, in your opinion, come up again
0:20:26 > 0:20:28as a referendum issue in Scotland?
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Well, I think Nicola Sturgeon was quite right.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33It's not sitting there to be brought up now
0:20:33 > 0:20:37unless the promises that were made fall so far short of aspirations
0:20:37 > 0:20:40that the people - and let's just remember that
0:20:40 > 0:20:43the people are the agents in this, no matter what parties say -
0:20:43 > 0:20:47it's up to the people to decide when they find the situation to be
0:20:47 > 0:20:50completely unsatisfactory, and who knows when that'll happen?
0:20:50 > 0:20:51Janet Street-Porter?
0:20:52 > 0:20:56Well, I can't answer for how people in Scotland feel,
0:20:56 > 0:20:59but I think the good thing about the result is
0:20:59 > 0:21:03that it gave politics in the rest of the United Kingdom
0:21:03 > 0:21:06a big kick up the backside and it was really...
0:21:06 > 0:21:08APPLAUSE
0:21:08 > 0:21:11..invigorating.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14I made a film about independence
0:21:14 > 0:21:18which was only shown in Scotland by the BBC, bizarrely enough, because
0:21:18 > 0:21:22they didn't actually think that the people in the rest of the UK
0:21:22 > 0:21:23would be interested.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26So I went right through Scotland
0:21:26 > 0:21:29and I talked to lots of people about how they felt
0:21:29 > 0:21:31and that was back in March and April,
0:21:31 > 0:21:33and it was obvious to me how passionate -
0:21:33 > 0:21:35they were talking about politics
0:21:35 > 0:21:38in a way that I just don't encounter in England.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41So, what I hope happens
0:21:41 > 0:21:45is that the people in England are invigorated by this
0:21:45 > 0:21:48and start questioning our three-party system
0:21:48 > 0:21:54and start questioning things about the way that we run Westminster.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57I, personally, would like to see, first of all,
0:21:57 > 0:21:59young people get the vote and
0:21:59 > 0:22:03I hope that's one of the things - the rapid, easy to fix things -
0:22:03 > 0:22:08that happen as a result of this referendum.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12Because 100,000 young people, 16 and 17-year-olds, voted in Scotland
0:22:12 > 0:22:15and, guess what, none of them made the headlines
0:22:15 > 0:22:18for being drunk and disorderly, it all went perfectly well,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21and they discussed it in school and at home,
0:22:21 > 0:22:26and it was absolutely amazing and it was inspiring.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28So, I hope that happens in England.
0:22:28 > 0:22:34I would not, personally, like to go through that referendum vote
0:22:34 > 0:22:35all over again for the next five years
0:22:35 > 0:22:39because I think it's slightly destabilising.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41You want to get on and plan your future,
0:22:41 > 0:22:43you've been promised lots of things.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46As Lesley said, let's see how much of it is delivered.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50But what is going to happen, there is bound to be a backlash in England
0:22:50 > 0:22:53because they've noticed that, per capita,
0:22:53 > 0:22:58you spend far more money on national health, on sport, and on culture,
0:22:58 > 0:23:03way more than your counterparts in England get.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06So, the people in England who are moaning, quite rightly,
0:23:06 > 0:23:08about the time they have to wait for operations,
0:23:08 > 0:23:11the lack of staff in A&E,
0:23:11 > 0:23:13they look to what's happened in Scotland
0:23:13 > 0:23:16and they're going to demand greater control
0:23:16 > 0:23:18- over how our money is allocated. - All right, OK.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20Let's go back to the Scottish issue.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24The person up there, whose hand's up in the air. Yes, you.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26I would just like to say that
0:23:26 > 0:23:30there's been a huge grassroots movement
0:23:30 > 0:23:33that started during the referendum campaign
0:23:33 > 0:23:35and it's grown and it's got momentum
0:23:35 > 0:23:39that isn't by any means dragging into a halt.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43I, for one, am 54 years old. I've never belonged to a political party.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46I joined the SNP the day after the referendum,
0:23:46 > 0:23:48along with tens of thousands of others,
0:23:48 > 0:23:52and there's political awareness with people much younger than myself
0:23:52 > 0:23:56who are having conversations on social media
0:23:56 > 0:24:01that you wouldn't expect from 25-year-olds, or even 35-year-olds.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05And it's very exciting, as was mentioned before,
0:24:05 > 0:24:09and it's hard to believe that there will not at some time...
0:24:09 > 0:24:14I mean, politics, a week can be a long time in politics.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17It may be many years, but it's hard to believe
0:24:17 > 0:24:22that there will not be another referendum campaign.
0:24:22 > 0:24:26- Regardless of how much devolution is offered?- Regardless.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28I don't think devolution will stop that.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30OK, and the woman here, yes?
0:24:30 > 0:24:33I would just go back to the point that Lesley made,
0:24:33 > 0:24:35talking about the promises that were made and the blank cheque that
0:24:35 > 0:24:37you're now waiting to be written.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41I voted "no" by post some weeks before
0:24:41 > 0:24:45any of those promises were made and I would have voted "no"
0:24:45 > 0:24:49regardless of those promises, which I thought were unnecessary.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51And it annoys me intently that
0:24:51 > 0:24:54Alex Salmond purports to speak for all the "no" voters
0:24:54 > 0:24:58who are now supposedly up in arms about promises that were made
0:24:58 > 0:25:00if you vote "no."
0:25:00 > 0:25:03So I think that there are a lot of people there who actually,
0:25:03 > 0:25:05no meant no, whatever was promised.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07APPLAUSE
0:25:11 > 0:25:15John Swinney, you end up with one new member up there
0:25:15 > 0:25:19and you've interpreted the result wrong for the "no" camp.
0:25:19 > 0:25:23This lady up here is one of 40,000 additional people who have
0:25:23 > 0:25:26joined the SNP since last Thursday, which is
0:25:26 > 0:25:28quite a remarkable membership success,
0:25:28 > 0:25:31when we didn't even try, so that's one lesson of politics.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34Can I go back to the question that Natasha raised, first of all?
0:25:34 > 0:25:37You know, I accept the result of the referendum.
0:25:37 > 0:25:39It's a deep personal disappointment to me.
0:25:39 > 0:25:40I've spent 35 years of my life
0:25:40 > 0:25:43trying to work for Scottish independence
0:25:43 > 0:25:46and I've believed that Scotland would be
0:25:46 > 0:25:49better as an independent country all of my adult life.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51I can't stop believing that today.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53Nothing that happened in the referendum makes me
0:25:53 > 0:25:56feel any differently about that, but I do accept unreservedly
0:25:56 > 0:26:00the fact that we didn't win the referendum. I think Lesley's right.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03The focus now goes on to, well, what was promised.
0:26:03 > 0:26:09Because the point that the lady makes here is an important one.
0:26:09 > 0:26:10In the referendum campaign,
0:26:10 > 0:26:15I spoke to people who were planning to vote yes, who told me,
0:26:15 > 0:26:18"I'm not voting yes anymore, Mr Swinney, because I've been offered
0:26:18 > 0:26:21"these extra powers, I can get them, and I can get them by voting no."
0:26:21 > 0:26:23The Prime Minister said,
0:26:23 > 0:26:28"A vote for no means not a vote for no change,"
0:26:28 > 0:26:31that change was coming. So all of these promises were made.
0:26:31 > 0:26:32The crucial thing,
0:26:32 > 0:26:36and this is where I think the next period of Scottish
0:26:36 > 0:26:40politics will be dominated by this point, is are these promises going
0:26:40 > 0:26:44to be fulfilled that were offered by the United Kingdom parties?
0:26:44 > 0:26:46And they were a variety of promises.
0:26:46 > 0:26:51They were devo max, Gordon Brown told us we were getting federalism,
0:26:51 > 0:26:54- we were told that we would be getting...- Home rule.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57Well, he gave us both, actually.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00It was home rule and federalism and, crucially,
0:27:00 > 0:27:03extensive additional powers for the Scottish Parliament.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06And people voted in the referendum on that basis.
0:27:06 > 0:27:10So these promises have to be fulfilled and we, as a government,
0:27:10 > 0:27:11the Scottish National Party,
0:27:11 > 0:27:16we will participate fully in the process of discussion about how
0:27:16 > 0:27:19those powers are brought to Scotland, because that is incumbent on us,
0:27:19 > 0:27:21given the fact that we've accepted
0:27:21 > 0:27:24we didn't win the referendum last Thursday.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26But none of that, none of that experience will ever stop me
0:27:26 > 0:27:31believing that Scotland will be more successful as an independent country.
0:27:31 > 0:27:32APPLAUSE
0:27:36 > 0:27:38You, yes.
0:27:38 > 0:27:43I'd just like to make the point that, yes, it was a "no" vote
0:27:43 > 0:27:46and, yes, Alex Salmond said, "The dream will never die."
0:27:46 > 0:27:50The fact is, 45% of us still voted yes and we have yet to see
0:27:50 > 0:27:54those new powers that Westminster promised us with a "no" vote.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57The circumstances can still change and I...
0:27:57 > 0:28:00I certainly don't believe that Westminster are going to
0:28:00 > 0:28:03give us an easy time about this.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05You know, they've said things before in the past that
0:28:05 > 0:28:09weren't true and I have no doubt they're going to do it again.
0:28:09 > 0:28:13The fact is, I believe that Scotland should be an independent country.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15I believe it was a big mistake to vote no,
0:28:15 > 0:28:18but, at the end of the day, the dream will never die
0:28:18 > 0:28:24because we need representation in Westminster, in the UK,
0:28:24 > 0:28:28that we don't get just now and I don't think we ever will get that.
0:28:28 > 0:28:29APPLAUSE
0:28:29 > 0:28:31Emily Thornberry.
0:28:31 > 0:28:36Well, as you can hear from my accent, I'm British.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39The devolution promises that were made...
0:28:39 > 0:28:42I don't think you can tell a British accent, can you,
0:28:42 > 0:28:47- in Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland?- The point I'm making...
0:28:47 > 0:28:49Is that you have an English accent.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52The point I'm making is that I'm British, I'm English, I'm
0:28:52 > 0:28:57a Londoner, I'm British, but I have a place here and this is my country
0:28:57 > 0:29:01and I'm so pleased that Scotland voted no.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04I'm so relieved, I'm so pleased you haven't gone.
0:29:04 > 0:29:05APPLAUSE
0:29:11 > 0:29:15The promises that we made during the devolution debate over those
0:29:15 > 0:29:19two years and towards the end of the campaign, solemn promises,
0:29:19 > 0:29:23and they will be met and, whichever party is in power in May,
0:29:23 > 0:29:27you will get devolution, there will be devolution to Scotland
0:29:27 > 0:29:30and of course there will need to be discussions, but any suggestion
0:29:30 > 0:29:32that...that Labour or,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35as far as I can see it, any of the other political parties
0:29:35 > 0:29:38are going back on it is mischief making.
0:29:38 > 0:29:40- So...- And on the second?
0:29:40 > 0:29:45What I would like to say as well, I mean, I came up as well
0:29:45 > 0:29:48and I was struck by the power of politics
0:29:48 > 0:29:50and the fact that there was such a grassroots movement
0:29:50 > 0:29:52and it seemed to me that there was absolutely
0:29:52 > 0:29:55what everybody was united with was the idea that we had to have
0:29:55 > 0:29:58change and, for a lot of people, that change
0:29:58 > 0:30:02was about, "We must be able to meet the bills at the end of the month.
0:30:02 > 0:30:04"We're fed up with the fact that our wages are not
0:30:04 > 0:30:06"going up as much as the bills are.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09"We need to make sure that we have hope for our children.
0:30:09 > 0:30:11"We must make sure that we have decent schools.
0:30:11 > 0:30:15"We need to have a fairer society and economic change," and that,
0:30:15 > 0:30:18I think, is as important as anything else.
0:30:18 > 0:30:21For that, many people turned their back on Labour in Scotland,
0:30:21 > 0:30:23- didn't they, for that very reason? - Well, I think the challenge...
0:30:23 > 0:30:27- You urged them to vote no and they voted yes.- Well, no.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29Large numbers of the Labour Party did.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32There was a 10% margin in favour of...
0:30:32 > 0:30:37A third... A third... A third of Labour voters? Yes?
0:30:37 > 0:30:42About 40% of Labour voters were the ones who voted
0:30:42 > 0:30:43yes in the referendum.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47What that says clearly to me is the Labour message was
0:30:47 > 0:30:50unsuccessful in reaching some of its core voters.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54Now, what... The point that Emily made a moment ago was that
0:30:54 > 0:30:57it was mischief to suggest that somehow these promises
0:30:57 > 0:30:59were not going to be delivered.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02At seven o'clock on the morning after the referendum,
0:31:02 > 0:31:04the Prime Minister walked out of Downing Street...
0:31:04 > 0:31:06EMILY: Well, I don't speak for him.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08Hold on, let him finish the point.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11You were all quite happy to speak for each other during
0:31:11 > 0:31:13the referendum campaign, Emily. All of you were...
0:31:13 > 0:31:15APPLAUSE
0:31:15 > 0:31:19You were all... You were all... You were all...
0:31:19 > 0:31:21You were all Better Together in the referendum campaign.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24But at seven o'clock in the morning, after the referendum,
0:31:24 > 0:31:27the Prime Minister stood on the steps of Downing Street
0:31:27 > 0:31:32and he added the question of English devolution to the question
0:31:32 > 0:31:35of Scottish devolution, and it all had to happen at the same time.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37And he's been smacked back into place. He's not...
0:31:37 > 0:31:40Emily, just let him have his say and I'll come to Rory next.
0:31:40 > 0:31:45I simply offer that to illustrate that there is a desire
0:31:45 > 0:31:48to try to undermine the commitments that were given
0:31:48 > 0:31:51and we will hold the Westminster parties to exactly what they said
0:31:51 > 0:31:54- in the referendum campaign. - Hang on. Yes, fine.
0:31:54 > 0:31:55APPLAUSE
0:31:58 > 0:32:01Rory Stewart, this is a very important point because,
0:32:01 > 0:32:05as John Swinney says, the words the Prime Minister used on Friday
0:32:05 > 0:32:09morning were that the changes in Scotland must take place in
0:32:09 > 0:32:15tandem, fair enough, and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18In other words, presumably, the thing starts
0:32:18 > 0:32:20and is completed at the same time.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22That's what it means, "at the same pace".
0:32:22 > 0:32:25- You went to the Chequers meeting with the Prime Minister.- Sure.
0:32:25 > 0:32:27How was this point resolved? Who's right?
0:32:27 > 0:32:30Is Emily right that you won't renege on it, or is it John right
0:32:30 > 0:32:34to say this is a very strange thing to have said on Friday morning?
0:32:34 > 0:32:36The resolution is very, very clear.
0:32:36 > 0:32:38No ifs, no buts,
0:32:38 > 0:32:43Scotland gets devolution regardless of what else happens anywhere else.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46- Absolutely. No ifs, no buts. LESLEY:- We've got devolution.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48Which powers are you going to give us? That's the question.
0:32:48 > 0:32:52Welfare and taxation and, like Lesley,
0:32:52 > 0:32:56this was the most precious, wonderful year of my political life
0:32:56 > 0:32:59because a very simple choice was made.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02The SNP are going to try and make this more complicated.
0:33:02 > 0:33:03That choice was simple.
0:33:03 > 0:33:08Do you want to remain part of the United Kingdom or not?
0:33:08 > 0:33:12Devolution max will be delivered without any conditions.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16All this stuff about what happens in England is entirely independent
0:33:16 > 0:33:17and that promise will be kept.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20Hang on, that's not what the Prime Minister says.
0:33:20 > 0:33:21Rory Stewart may say it,
0:33:21 > 0:33:25but the Prime Minister says that it must take place at the same pace
0:33:25 > 0:33:26as the settlement on Scotland.
0:33:26 > 0:33:28They've smacked him down. It's fine. It's fine.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32- He's been put back in his box. - Who's smacked him down?
0:33:32 > 0:33:35Well, basically, these guys have smacked him down.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38He went out onto the front doorstep of Number Ten
0:33:38 > 0:33:41and thought, oh, he has a nice party political opportunity here
0:33:41 > 0:33:44and, basically, grown-ups around and said, "Stop messing around.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47"You don't know how to behave. This is not how you do things."
0:33:47 > 0:33:48This is... This is...
0:33:48 > 0:33:50APPLAUSE
0:33:50 > 0:33:52This is... This is...
0:33:52 > 0:33:54This is very important.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56What you can see happening here with John
0:33:56 > 0:33:59and Lesley is they're beginning the campaign for the next referendum
0:33:59 > 0:34:02and they'll organise it around the idea of betrayal.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05They'll set up an idea that some great promises were made
0:34:05 > 0:34:07and the promises were let down.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10But the choice to the Scottish people was very straightforward.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12Do you want to be part of the United Kingdom or not?
0:34:12 > 0:34:14And buy a ten-point margin,
0:34:14 > 0:34:16Scotland decided to remain part of the United Kingdom
0:34:16 > 0:34:20and any amount of trickery, any amount of introducing other things,
0:34:20 > 0:34:23- doesn't get beyond that point. - Rory, I started...
0:34:23 > 0:34:25APPLAUSE
0:34:27 > 0:34:28I gave my answer...
0:34:28 > 0:34:30I started my answer on this question very
0:34:30 > 0:34:33deliberately by saying that I accept the result, however
0:34:33 > 0:34:36painful that is for me personally and, believe you me, it is painful.
0:34:36 > 0:34:42But promises were made that have to be fulfilled of home rule,
0:34:42 > 0:34:46quasi-federalism, of devo max, extensive powers.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50Those are the tests that must be delivered and,
0:34:50 > 0:34:52to be absolutely blunt about it,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55the Prime Minister's first attempt on the steps of Downing Street
0:34:55 > 0:34:58at seven o'clock in the morning did not instil confidence that he
0:34:58 > 0:35:00was going to be as resolute on the Friday as he had
0:35:00 > 0:35:03been on the previous Monday about delivering extensive
0:35:03 > 0:35:05- powers to the Scottish Parliament. - I want to go to something...
0:35:05 > 0:35:06APPLAUSE
0:35:06 > 0:35:09I want to go to something that Janet Street-Porter raised a moment
0:35:09 > 0:35:12ago about English reaction to all this
0:35:12 > 0:35:15and it is a question from Patricia Brennock, please.
0:35:15 > 0:35:16Patricia Brennock.
0:35:16 > 0:35:22Should Scottish MPs continue to vote on English issues in Parliament?
0:35:22 > 0:35:25Should Scottish MPs vote on English issues in Parliament?
0:35:25 > 0:35:27Janet, you kick off on this one.
0:35:29 > 0:35:33Well, I don't see why they should, really.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36I mean, I've thought about it quite a lot.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39What I'd like to see happen is
0:35:39 > 0:35:41I would like an English Parliament
0:35:41 > 0:35:42but, at the same time, I've campaigned,
0:35:42 > 0:35:47I've moaned so many times about administration, bureaucracy
0:35:47 > 0:35:51and so on, but I think that, going forward,
0:35:51 > 0:35:56the situation as it currently stands is illogical.
0:35:56 > 0:36:01So it seems more... You know, it seems a foregone conclusion,
0:36:01 > 0:36:04actually, and this is what people in England are saying -
0:36:04 > 0:36:08"Yes, well, let English MPs vote on English business."
0:36:08 > 0:36:13What worries me about this is, yeah, that's logical and yes, why not do it,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16but what are we all going to join together on,
0:36:16 > 0:36:19what's come to hold us together? Because if there's going to be more
0:36:19 > 0:36:22and more things that we are devolved and we do separately...
0:36:22 > 0:36:25And now we've got all the Northern cities of England saying,
0:36:25 > 0:36:28"Oh, why haven't we got a regional assembly and more powers?"
0:36:28 > 0:36:31Even though they voted against that a few years ago,
0:36:31 > 0:36:33now they want it back.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36What holds the union together?
0:36:36 > 0:36:38What are all the things that everybody wants to
0:36:38 > 0:36:42happen in Westminster that we all vote on together?
0:36:42 > 0:36:43But, yeah, there should be things
0:36:43 > 0:36:46like the way the National Health Service is run,
0:36:46 > 0:36:50I do think should be devolved, and education and so on.
0:36:50 > 0:36:55There are key issues that should be only voted on by English MPs.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57John Swinney.
0:36:57 > 0:37:02I was a Westminster MP for four years and I did not vote on
0:37:02 > 0:37:06English-only issues within the House of Commons.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09Where I did vote on issues which were relevant to England
0:37:09 > 0:37:12was where they had a financial implication for Scotland,
0:37:12 > 0:37:15for which there was a direct financial relationship.
0:37:15 > 0:37:20But I, essentially, absented myself from deciding on any issues
0:37:20 > 0:37:22that were England-only issues.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25Should that be a general rule for all MPs who come from Scotland?
0:37:25 > 0:37:27I think that is a general rule that should be applied to
0:37:27 > 0:37:29all MPs that come from Scotland.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32I think the issues that Janet raises and, I think, that have
0:37:32 > 0:37:36emerged from the debate in England are entirely understandable issues.
0:37:36 > 0:37:40I think there are many implications that have been raised by devolution.
0:37:40 > 0:37:44There'll be many more implications that will be raised by a devolution
0:37:44 > 0:37:47of further extensive powers to the Scottish Parliament, which
0:37:47 > 0:37:51obviously I'm supportive of, but I accept they will cause implications.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54So I think the concerns that have been raised
0:37:54 > 0:37:58by voters in England are entirely understandable, given
0:37:58 > 0:38:01the significant changes that have taken place in the United Kingdom.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04And obviously that process must go further as a consequence
0:38:04 > 0:38:06- of the referendum in Scotland.- OK.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09The man in spectacles, do you want to come in there? Yes.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12Perhaps what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
0:38:12 > 0:38:16Maybe there would be less suspicion and resentment on all sides
0:38:16 > 0:38:23if, for example, only Scottish MPs were allowed to vote
0:38:23 > 0:38:27on the new Scottish powers and on devo max.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30- PANEL CHUCKLE - Right.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32Emily Thornberry. A good legal conundrum for you.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35I'm not sure we could rely on all the Labour MPs from Scotland
0:38:35 > 0:38:37to vote for more devolution for Scotland.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40I can't imagine that would be likely.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42I'm not going to rise to this.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45Let me address the question as it was originally asked.
0:38:45 > 0:38:50I think that it's right that the debate that happened in Scotland
0:38:50 > 0:38:53is likely to engender within a lot of English people the idea that they
0:38:53 > 0:38:55should have a stronger voice.
0:38:55 > 0:38:57The question is how to go about doing that.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00It does seem to me that, actually, you know,
0:39:00 > 0:39:03England does have cities and regions that are very different
0:39:03 > 0:39:07from each other and I think that most people, when they think about it,
0:39:07 > 0:39:10would like to have power closer to their families and to themselves
0:39:10 > 0:39:13so the decisions that are made are relevant to their circumstances.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15I think that's important.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17But I also think it's important that we can't just keep...
0:39:17 > 0:39:20We have been making changes to the constitution.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23We have an unwritten constitution, but we do have a constitution.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26We have not yet had an overview as to where we have got to
0:39:26 > 0:39:28and what we should do next.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31So that we have, on the one hand, Northern Ireland, you know,
0:39:31 > 0:39:34with their version of devolution, you have Scotland with
0:39:34 > 0:39:37what will become Scotland's version of devolution, Wales with other...
0:39:37 > 0:39:42London. I mean, London, you know, we have transport devolved to
0:39:42 > 0:39:45London, so does that mean that I can't vote on any transport bills?
0:39:45 > 0:39:48I don't think this is about just Westminster.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50I don't think it's right that we should have
0:39:50 > 0:39:51a Westminster fix to this.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54I think that it is right that we have a constitutional convention,
0:39:54 > 0:39:58we look at it carefully, we engage people up and down the country,
0:39:58 > 0:40:01around the nations, the regions and the cities,
0:40:01 > 0:40:03in the same way that we did in Scotland.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05We had a debate for two years in Scotland
0:40:05 > 0:40:07and came out with some good answers.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09We need to have the same in the rest of the United Kingdom.
0:40:09 > 0:40:13I, personally, think we cannot think about our constitution
0:40:13 > 0:40:17and changes to our constitution without at last dealing
0:40:17 > 0:40:19with the issue of the second chamber.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22I think that we should have voices across, you know,
0:40:22 > 0:40:25from all over, across the United Kingdom in the second chamber
0:40:25 > 0:40:28and I think that we need to look at that in terms of the House of Lords.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31- I think we should come back... JANET:- We've debated this for years.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33And we have to do it together.
0:40:33 > 0:40:37We've had a referendum about devolving powers to cities.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39We've had debates about mayors...
0:40:39 > 0:40:41You've raised yourself the question, which is,
0:40:41 > 0:40:44on the one hand, we want to devolve power to people
0:40:44 > 0:40:45but we also need to keep united
0:40:45 > 0:40:49because that's what the vote was about and that's what people want.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52- They do want change.- Yeah, but two years, a constitutional...
0:40:52 > 0:40:55What you're talking about taking two years is just a delaying tactic.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58- No, it's not. It's a proper look... - It IS a delaying tactic.
0:40:58 > 0:40:59..at a serious subject.
0:40:59 > 0:41:00ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
0:41:00 > 0:41:03We are talking about the British constitution here.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06- Some people say you're talking about the Labour Party...- Exactly.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09..and whether you'll get your votes in the House of Commons.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11APPLAUSE Well, actually, do you know what?
0:41:11 > 0:41:14Every time Labour has won the general election, we have had
0:41:14 > 0:41:18the majority in England so I think, you know, it's not quite right.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22In the end, you know, it is ridiculous the idea that...that...
0:41:22 > 0:41:24that David Cameron and a couple of his mates
0:41:24 > 0:41:26can go off into a committee corridor in Westminster
0:41:26 > 0:41:29- and fix the British constitution in a period of weeks.- Lesley.
0:41:29 > 0:41:34Let's just look at this question - what would hold Britain together
0:41:34 > 0:41:38if the parts of it had very strong control over their own running?
0:41:38 > 0:41:41Well, what holds every federal country together in Europe?
0:41:41 > 0:41:44And what makes most of those federal countries, by the way,
0:41:44 > 0:41:48AAA-credit-rated nations, which we lost last year?
0:41:48 > 0:41:52It's fairness, it's respect for the fact that there's difference
0:41:52 > 0:41:56and, above all, it's power. It's local power held by people.
0:41:56 > 0:42:00For example, Angela Merkel, the world's most powerful women,
0:42:00 > 0:42:04cannot impose a council tax freeze in Germany because those levels
0:42:04 > 0:42:08of government are completely legislatively separate.
0:42:08 > 0:42:14Here in Britain, we have a top-down, winner-takes-all attitude to power.
0:42:14 > 0:42:20One area, one government, one party wins just by a small whisker
0:42:20 > 0:42:24and all power is then concentrated in their hands.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27Now, until we start to question that in the whole of Britain...
0:42:27 > 0:42:30Because it is being questioned in the Celtic regions, if you
0:42:30 > 0:42:34like, all of whom now employ some form of proportional representation.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37Until we begin to question the way that, actually, England is
0:42:37 > 0:42:42operating in a first-past-the-post mode that gives a lot of power
0:42:42 > 0:42:43to a small number of people,
0:42:43 > 0:42:47we will continue to have these rammies over and over again
0:42:47 > 0:42:49and we will hear the call for another look
0:42:49 > 0:42:53at the House of Lords, which should have been abolished ages ago.
0:42:53 > 0:42:54JOHN: Absolutely.
0:42:54 > 0:42:55APPLAUSE
0:42:55 > 0:42:58The man in the middle there. You, sir.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05Would the answer to our constitutional question not
0:43:05 > 0:43:09be one set of MPs who sat in their individual regions
0:43:09 > 0:43:12and went to Westminster to deal with matters
0:43:12 > 0:43:15which pertained to the whole of the UK?
0:43:15 > 0:43:18I feel, currently, duplication serves nobody.
0:43:18 > 0:43:22OK, and the woman here on the left and then I'll come to you, Rory.
0:43:22 > 0:43:28I object to Emily saying that, you know, they engaged,
0:43:28 > 0:43:30the Labour Party engaged people.
0:43:30 > 0:43:33The Labour Party, over the last two years,
0:43:33 > 0:43:35did not engage people in Scotland.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38It was the people, it was National Collective,
0:43:38 > 0:43:42it was Bella Caledonia, Wings Over Scotland who engaged the people.
0:43:42 > 0:43:47The Labour Party sat on the Tories' coat-tails
0:43:47 > 0:43:49and became Red Tories themselves.
0:43:49 > 0:43:51- APPLAUSE - Rory Stewart.
0:43:55 > 0:43:56Come back to the question, Rory.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58I'll come back to the original question.
0:43:58 > 0:44:00That is the best place to start.
0:44:00 > 0:44:02English votes on English laws.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05We do need English votes on English laws and, actually, John Swinney has
0:44:05 > 0:44:09provided a pretty straightforward explanation of how you do it.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11There is a more complicated explanation.
0:44:11 > 0:44:13There is a very, very interesting piece of work
0:44:13 > 0:44:16called the McKay Commission, which has reported, it's taken evidence
0:44:16 > 0:44:19from all round the country, and it's come up with a proposal
0:44:19 > 0:44:21which, in the end, is pretty similar to what John did,
0:44:21 > 0:44:25which is that MPs who are not sitting for English constituencies
0:44:25 > 0:44:26don't vote on English laws.
0:44:26 > 0:44:28Now, the parliament would retain...
0:44:28 > 0:44:30And this is why you don't need a big constitutional change.
0:44:30 > 0:44:33The parliament would retain the theoretical power to vote
0:44:33 > 0:44:37on those laws but, if they did it, there would be a crisis
0:44:37 > 0:44:39and they would have to explain why they were doing it.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43The analogy - it's very British - is the Queen retains enormous power.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45This is how we took power away from the Queen.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47She can still declare war, theoretically.
0:44:47 > 0:44:51As far as I know, she hasn't decided to recently.
0:44:51 > 0:44:53If she did, there would be a constitutional crisis.
0:44:53 > 0:44:55We would move to a world in which, effectively,
0:44:55 > 0:44:58Scottish MPs would act as John did.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01They wouldn't vote, they'd retain the right to vote but they wouldn't
0:45:01 > 0:45:04do so and English MPs would retain control over English laws without
0:45:04 > 0:45:08opening up that whole Pandora's box of proportional representation,
0:45:08 > 0:45:10the House of Lords, the written constitution
0:45:10 > 0:45:12and umpteen other things,
0:45:12 > 0:45:15which the Labour Party is using as a delaying tactic.
0:45:15 > 0:45:17So, you'd wait for the Queen to purr?
0:45:18 > 0:45:20LAUGHTER
0:45:22 > 0:45:23Her approval.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30Right, on which note...
0:45:30 > 0:45:34You think David Cameron's going to have rather an embarrassing audience
0:45:34 > 0:45:37next time he goes to Buckingham Palace?
0:45:40 > 0:45:43Let's take this question from Jim Hewitt.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46If the leader of the Labour Party forgets
0:45:46 > 0:45:49the £95 billion deficit in the major speech,
0:45:49 > 0:45:51how can we trust him to lead the country?
0:45:58 > 0:46:01Ed Miliband famously forgetting to mention the deficit.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05You are the finance secretary up here, John Swinney,
0:46:05 > 0:46:06what do you make of it?
0:46:06 > 0:46:09It think it's pretty inexplicable
0:46:09 > 0:46:13that Ed Miliband forgot to mention the deficit.
0:46:13 > 0:46:18Of course, Ed Miliband has structured his entire economic proposition
0:46:18 > 0:46:21on sticking, essentially,
0:46:21 > 0:46:25to the same deficit-reducing plan and austerity implementation that is
0:46:25 > 0:46:29the current direction of the Conservative and Liberal coalition.
0:46:29 > 0:46:34So what people will find as the UK election takes its course is that
0:46:34 > 0:46:39the Labour Party has signed up to the same straitjacket over
0:46:39 > 0:46:41the public expenditure and public finances that
0:46:41 > 0:46:44the Conservatives are currently implementing,
0:46:44 > 0:46:48which means very significant reductions in welfare expenditure,
0:46:48 > 0:46:52where Rachel Reeves, the shadow work and pensions secretary,
0:46:52 > 0:46:55has said that the Labour Party will be tougher on welfare reform
0:46:55 > 0:46:58and tougher on benefit claimants than the Conservatives,
0:46:58 > 0:47:01that we will not see the stimulus,
0:47:01 > 0:47:03that I think is required,
0:47:03 > 0:47:06to the economy to move us faster and swifter out of recession.
0:47:06 > 0:47:12I think that the reality of the economic medicine proposed by
0:47:12 > 0:47:15the Labour Party will be hauntingly similar to
0:47:15 > 0:47:18the economic direction of the Conservatives.
0:47:18 > 0:47:21They will try to present a couple of things as slightly different.
0:47:21 > 0:47:27The discussion about the mansion tax is a nice diversion from
0:47:27 > 0:47:30the austerity agenda that is essentially at
0:47:30 > 0:47:33the heart of the Labour Party's agenda.
0:47:33 > 0:47:37Although Ed Miliband didn't mention the deficit in his speech on Tuesday,
0:47:37 > 0:47:40it was central to the speech that Ed Balls made to
0:47:40 > 0:47:42the Labour Party Conference on Monday,
0:47:42 > 0:47:45which was all about delivering more and more austerity.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48That is the agenda of the Labour Party for 2015.
0:47:48 > 0:47:54So, in that sense, it didn't matter that Ed Miliband didn't mention it,
0:47:54 > 0:47:57or do you think he was trying to woo the conference
0:47:57 > 0:48:01by not reminding them of the austerity
0:48:01 > 0:48:03that Ed Balls was proposing?
0:48:03 > 0:48:08I thought it interesting that one of Ed Miliband's spin doctors said
0:48:08 > 0:48:11that the deficit was at the back of Ed's mind.
0:48:11 > 0:48:15It would have been nice if it had been at the front of his mind
0:48:15 > 0:48:17when it was supposed to be uttered.
0:48:17 > 0:48:19But the real speech that we need to look at
0:48:19 > 0:48:21was the Ed Balls speech on Monday
0:48:21 > 0:48:25cos that speech committed the Labour Party to prolonged austerity,
0:48:25 > 0:48:28just like the Conservatives are committed to prolonged austerity in
0:48:28 > 0:48:31- the United Kingdom. - Janet Street-Porter.
0:48:31 > 0:48:34Well, can we trust Ed Miliband?
0:48:34 > 0:48:36Firstly, any man that gets up
0:48:36 > 0:48:42and decides to make a speech without notes, I don't trust anyway.
0:48:42 > 0:48:43Why not?
0:48:43 > 0:48:47I think it is a very macho, threadbare gesture, actually.
0:48:47 > 0:48:52If you want to be the next Prime Minister of Great Britain...
0:48:52 > 0:48:56it's your last chance to connect with the people
0:48:56 > 0:48:58who might vote for you before the election,
0:48:58 > 0:49:01to get every single newspaper front page,
0:49:01 > 0:49:03to be the lead story on all the news items.
0:49:03 > 0:49:09It is sheer bloody-minded arrogance to think you can speak for
0:49:09 > 0:49:1378 minutes without notes and to just do it.
0:49:13 > 0:49:17I'm sorry, very few women would do that.
0:49:17 > 0:49:18You would think,
0:49:18 > 0:49:21"Oh, it is like housekeeping, I've got to have a list."
0:49:21 > 0:49:24He forgot huge amounts.
0:49:24 > 0:49:28Whether he did it deliberately or by accident, I don't know,
0:49:28 > 0:49:32but what I do know is that within that speech,
0:49:32 > 0:49:34the things that got picked up,
0:49:34 > 0:49:38like the mansion tax and so on, I found deeply depressing.
0:49:38 > 0:49:42It's almost like he was going back in time, into class war.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45To create something called a mansion tax,
0:49:45 > 0:49:51to target this completely unfair tax, which a lot, I think
0:49:51 > 0:49:54over 100,000 people would be affected by it,
0:49:54 > 0:49:57but many of them will be elderly who are living in houses.
0:49:57 > 0:50:01It is geographically discriminating, and also a class thing.
0:50:01 > 0:50:05But importantly, it only affects the southeast of England
0:50:05 > 0:50:09and parts of London, where, through no fault of their own,
0:50:09 > 0:50:12people have seen the property prices go through the roof.
0:50:12 > 0:50:16I think the mansion tax is dead in the water.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19But when I listen to the speech, when I take it apart,
0:50:19 > 0:50:22am I listening to a man who is going to run Britain?
0:50:22 > 0:50:26No, I am listening to someone who has had voice coaching.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29I am listening to someone who is talking like a
0:50:29 > 0:50:31Marks & Spencer advert.
0:50:31 > 0:50:33APPLAUSE
0:50:36 > 0:50:40The whole "together" rubbish. He said it about 50 times.
0:50:40 > 0:50:45What did it sound like? The Marks & Spencer Christmas ad or John Lewis.
0:50:45 > 0:50:47It's all this, "We're all in it together..."
0:50:47 > 0:50:49We know we are all in it together, Ed!
0:50:49 > 0:50:53If my bank balance has a deficit of £10,
0:50:53 > 0:50:56I get an overdraft charge.
0:50:56 > 0:51:00You have a deficit of £75 billion, and you forgot it.
0:51:00 > 0:51:05Most people in this country cannot afford to forget £9.50.
0:51:05 > 0:51:09I think that there are really good people in the Labour Party
0:51:09 > 0:51:12who could lead the country, but I don't think that man,
0:51:12 > 0:51:16walking up and down the stage without notes, is the bloke.
0:51:22 > 0:51:25Emily Thornberry.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27SHE SIGHS He forgot...
0:51:27 > 0:51:30LAUGHTER
0:51:30 > 0:51:35I don't know where to start with you, Janet. He forgot a bit of his speech.
0:51:35 > 0:51:39- A big bit!- As we've already heard,
0:51:39 > 0:51:43Ed Balls spent the day before talking about the deficit.
0:51:43 > 0:51:48He forgot a bit of his speech, but compare it with George Osborne.
0:51:48 > 0:51:53He missed his deficit target by £75 billion.
0:51:53 > 0:51:54What's more important?
0:51:54 > 0:51:56What ought to be on the front page of the Independent?
0:51:56 > 0:51:59George Osborne missing the deficit target
0:51:59 > 0:52:03or Ed Miliband forgetting a few paragraphs in 75-minute speech?
0:52:03 > 0:52:07I agree with the notes. I have to say, I always come with notes.
0:52:07 > 0:52:10I feel happier with them, but that is a different style.
0:52:10 > 0:52:15What is important is who has the best economic plan.
0:52:15 > 0:52:21The idea, Janet, that we are pulling back on some core vote strategy,
0:52:21 > 0:52:25a class war, if you heard his speech with the passion that he did,
0:52:25 > 0:52:29about how important the National Health Service is,
0:52:29 > 0:52:31that does not affect a few people.
0:52:31 > 0:52:35The English National Health Service affects the whole of England.
0:52:35 > 0:52:41But the mansion tax accounts for 1% of the national health deficit.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44There is a gaping hole in the NHS finances
0:52:44 > 0:52:47that will not be resolved by what he spelled out.
0:52:47 > 0:52:51How fair is it that somebody can buy a flat for at 1 Hyde Park Corner,
0:52:51 > 0:52:54or whatever it's called, for £136 million
0:52:54 > 0:52:57and guess how much tax they pay? £26 a week!
0:52:57 > 0:53:00All of the people that live in that block are not British citizens.
0:53:00 > 0:53:02Exactly. They own a large part of Britain
0:53:02 > 0:53:04and they are paying £26 a week.
0:53:04 > 0:53:10We know that there are some people on low incomes who have bought flats
0:53:10 > 0:53:14and houses in central London, and the prices have gone up hugely.
0:53:14 > 0:53:18It will be difficult for them to meet it. We understand that.
0:53:18 > 0:53:21We need provision for the lower end.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25But the people who don't necessarily live in Britain,
0:53:25 > 0:53:29who buy themselves a flat for £140 million in central London
0:53:29 > 0:53:31will not be paying £26 a week!
0:53:31 > 0:53:35- But they are not plugging up the deficit.- Rory Stewart.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38I thought what was sad about the speech was,
0:53:38 > 0:53:40you had the Fidel Castro length,
0:53:40 > 0:53:42you had the unscripted stuff,
0:53:42 > 0:53:44but none of the
0:53:44 > 0:53:47Fidel Castro passion.
0:53:47 > 0:53:51What's sad about all this is... I think John is right.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53Where's the radical vision?
0:53:53 > 0:53:55This is the great big speech before the election.
0:53:55 > 0:53:59Where is his vision of localism? Of economy?
0:53:59 > 0:54:03I can't see any distinctive economic analysis.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06And where is his foreign policy vision?
0:54:06 > 0:54:08What does he think about Britain?
0:54:08 > 0:54:09What does he think about the world?
0:54:09 > 0:54:11When was he last outside Britain?
0:54:11 > 0:54:13Where is that big passion?
0:54:13 > 0:54:15I don't care about him forgetting bits of his speech,
0:54:15 > 0:54:19but I would like to know what he believes in, as a leader.
0:54:19 > 0:54:20OK. You, sir.
0:54:23 > 0:54:25This is exactly why I voted yes,
0:54:25 > 0:54:29to get away from the Westminster nonsense.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34I'm on a Facebook page,
0:54:34 > 0:54:37there are 172,000 people that have liked the 45%.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40That's only 10,000 less than the whole of the Labour Party,
0:54:40 > 0:54:42and we're trying to get away...
0:54:42 > 0:54:45This is why we voted yes. We want to go away from this nonsense.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48- This wrangling. - Sorry, which wranglings?
0:54:48 > 0:54:50Between Labour and Conservative or what?
0:54:50 > 0:54:51Between me and Janet?
0:54:51 > 0:54:53- Or SNP and Labour?- No.
0:54:53 > 0:54:57I think the point the gentleman is making is that we've just come
0:54:57 > 0:55:00through a debate in Scotland, I'm on the losing side of it,
0:55:00 > 0:55:06but I think all of us can agree it was a most energised debate in which
0:55:06 > 0:55:09people were motivated to talk about politics in locations
0:55:09 > 0:55:13that they have never talked about politics in before.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16You know, I talked about politics in a barber shop with folks.
0:55:16 > 0:55:20Are you saying that Ed Miliband failed to do this in his speech?
0:55:20 > 0:55:23I think that the point that the gentleman is making
0:55:23 > 0:55:26is that there is a lack of engagement
0:55:26 > 0:55:29because there is no real choice or diversity in the propositions
0:55:29 > 0:55:33that we in Scotland had a debate about how to do things differently.
0:55:36 > 0:55:40- That genie's not going to go back in a bottle.- Lesley Riddoch.
0:55:40 > 0:55:44Yes, the astonishing thing is that Ed Miliband's latest polling
0:55:44 > 0:55:47is worse than David Cameron in Scotland.
0:55:47 > 0:55:50Now, that is really saying something for here.
0:55:50 > 0:55:52Why do you think that is?
0:55:52 > 0:55:55Because of many of the things that have been said.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57Putting the personality to one side,
0:55:57 > 0:55:59I know that people do like concentrating on that.
0:55:59 > 0:56:02It has a wee echo of a way that people were
0:56:02 > 0:56:04going for Alex Salmond as a personality.
0:56:04 > 0:56:07There's a bit of fitting up anybody who threatens the Establishment.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10Ed Miliband threatened it a bit more, actually.
0:56:10 > 0:56:12But it is the policies that people are looking at.
0:56:12 > 0:56:15Ed Balls announced freezing child benefit,
0:56:15 > 0:56:18scrapping the winter fuel allowance.
0:56:18 > 0:56:22- For the richest. - Scots really need that support.
0:56:22 > 0:56:26There is also a look at the pension age and raising it.
0:56:26 > 0:56:28It's a long discussion to have here,
0:56:28 > 0:56:31but the Scots are not reaching the pension age
0:56:31 > 0:56:33the same as the rest of the UK.
0:56:33 > 0:56:37That feels like an insult, a couple of days after the no vote.
0:56:37 > 0:56:40That was the period when we expected to be wooed,
0:56:40 > 0:56:42especially by a party
0:56:42 > 0:56:45which had lost Glasgow and Dundee.
0:56:45 > 0:56:48And to pick up on one last thing about that deal,
0:56:48 > 0:56:52we had heard earlier from Rory who was talking about
0:56:52 > 0:56:54the content of what might be offered,
0:56:54 > 0:56:57he talked about offering welfare and taxation.
0:56:57 > 0:57:00When it comes to income tax and welfare,
0:57:00 > 0:57:03neither have been promised by you, the Labour Party,
0:57:03 > 0:57:06you came up with devo nano.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10We have 30 seconds. Just very briefly, Emily,
0:57:10 > 0:57:12because we have come to the end of the programme.
0:57:12 > 0:57:14You have spoken at some length already.
0:57:14 > 0:57:16Just very briefly, if you want to answer Lesley.
0:57:16 > 0:57:19I think that there some very positive and important policies
0:57:19 > 0:57:21that will affect the people of Glasgow.
0:57:21 > 0:57:24Apprenticeships. Dealing with the cost of living.
0:57:24 > 0:57:28Housing, we need more housing. We need somewhere for our kids to live.
0:57:28 > 0:57:30We need to make sure we have a minimum wage.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32We need green jobs.
0:57:32 > 0:57:34We need to be able to look to the future.
0:57:34 > 0:57:38- And in England we need to do more to make sure that we save the NHS.- OK.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40That is a discussion to go on.
0:57:40 > 0:57:42We have the Tory Conference next, the UKIP Conference,
0:57:42 > 0:57:45Liberal Democrats Conference, it will go on and on.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47Next week we're going to be in Northampton.
0:57:47 > 0:57:49We have the Conservative Party Chairman on the panel -
0:57:49 > 0:57:50Grant Shapps.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53The week after that we're going to be in Clacton in Essex,
0:57:53 > 0:57:56where there's going to be the by-election
0:57:56 > 0:57:57which UKIP are hoping to win.
0:57:57 > 0:58:00If you want to come to either Question Time programme in
0:58:00 > 0:58:03Northampton or Clacton on the night of the by-election,
0:58:03 > 0:58:05go to our website which is...
0:58:08 > 0:58:10It's all on the screen there.
0:58:10 > 0:58:13Go to the website and apply there is the best thing to do.
0:58:13 > 0:58:17Sorry, I'm not being cavalier about it, it's all there to see.
0:58:17 > 0:58:21And I should add, welcome to all of you who've been listening to this
0:58:21 > 0:58:24on 5 Live, BBC Radio 5 Live.
0:58:24 > 0:58:28The programme presented by Steve Nolan and John Pienaar.
0:58:28 > 0:58:31And the debate carries on 5 Live if you're in the bath
0:58:31 > 0:58:34and listening to Question Time, as many people tell me they are,
0:58:34 > 0:58:37which I rather regret, as I like watching them on television.
0:58:37 > 0:58:41Question Time Extra Time there. Welcome to you, too.
0:58:41 > 0:58:43My thanks to our panel here
0:58:43 > 0:58:45and to all of you who came to Kelso to take part.
0:58:45 > 0:58:48Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.