:00:16. > :00:23.Welcome, whether you're watching or listening, to our audience here,
:00:24. > :00:31.Former Leader of the Scottish Conservatives Annabel Goldie.
:00:32. > :00:34.The Scottish Government's Cabinet Secretary for
:00:35. > :00:36.Infrastructure, responsible among other things for the Forth Road
:00:37. > :00:41.Labour's newly-elected Leader in Scotland, Kezia Dugdale.
:00:42. > :00:44.The Editor of MoneyWeek magazine, Merryn Somerset Webb.
:00:45. > :00:47.And the English musician who campaigned
:00:48. > :00:49.for Scottish independence, one of many campaigns he has put
:00:50. > :01:14.If you want to text or tweet, our hashtag is BBCQT.
:01:15. > :01:19.Text comments to 83981, and press the red button to see what
:01:20. > :01:39.Our first question, please. I would like to ask the panel, is the House
:01:40. > :01:43.of Lords more in tune with the British public than our elected
:01:44. > :01:49.representatives in Westminster? This is, of course, over the tax credit
:01:50. > :01:53.issue, when the House of Lords voted down the House of Commons. Among
:01:54. > :01:57.those voting was the newly ennobled Annabel Goldie. Is the House of
:01:58. > :02:03.Lords more in June with public opinion? I think the important issue
:02:04. > :02:09.to remember is that the House of Commons is the elected parliament,
:02:10. > :02:12.the Parliament voters elect MPs to. The house of lords is unelected.
:02:13. > :02:16.Some might want to get rid of it, but I think it does a good job of
:02:17. > :02:21.reviewing legislation and is needed as a secondary chamber at
:02:22. > :02:25.Westminster. But I voted with the government on Monday night because I
:02:26. > :02:31.thought it was wrong that an unelected House of Lords should be
:02:32. > :02:34.overflowing the duly processed decisions of an elected House of
:02:35. > :02:39.Commons. So I think there is a point of principle in there, but that is
:02:40. > :02:45.not to say that the House of Lords proved to be a very both useful and
:02:46. > :02:50.a very well-informed forum for addressing an issue which clearly
:02:51. > :02:54.has generated a great deal of interest, great deal of passion, and
:02:55. > :02:59.a great deal of concern, which is the matter of reforming tax credits.
:03:00. > :03:03.You are saying they should not have done this and now you are beginning
:03:04. > :03:09.to say they are in tune with public opinion, as the question was asking.
:03:10. > :03:12.I am saying there is a conflict between assuming that an unelected
:03:13. > :03:15.body like the House of Lords should be in a position to overthrow the
:03:16. > :03:19.decisions of the elected parliament, the House of Commons. I believe
:03:20. > :03:24.strongly that is an issue of principle. I am saying I think the
:03:25. > :03:28.House of Commons is the correct place for decisions to be made. That
:03:29. > :03:31.does not mean the House of Lords does not have a role, and I was
:03:32. > :03:36.explaining why I think it performed a useful role. But that the end of
:03:37. > :03:40.the day, and I would not hide from this, I also voted with the
:03:41. > :03:44.Government on Monday night because actually I do approve of what the
:03:45. > :03:54.Chancellor is trying to achieve, in terms of turning our economy round
:03:55. > :04:00.from a high welfare, high tax and low waged economy. I want to see us
:04:01. > :04:03.give people decent wages without having to subsidise wages with tax
:04:04. > :04:06.credits, which I don't think it's healthy. We are talking about who
:04:07. > :04:13.has the ear of the British public, the House of Commons or the House of
:04:14. > :04:16.Lords. Kezia Dugdale. They don't look like or sound like the rest of
:04:17. > :04:21.the country but I am glad they were there this week. Annabel said this
:04:22. > :04:25.was a point of principle. I'm a late -- afraid it wasn't. In the TV
:04:26. > :04:30.debates during the election David Cameron told us he would not cut tax
:04:31. > :04:35.credits. It was not in his manifesto and now he is trying to cut ?3000
:04:36. > :04:39.from families across the country. I think the Lords voted this week to
:04:40. > :04:42.try to hold David Cameron to what he told the British public and I'm glad
:04:43. > :04:46.they did that. That is a really good thing that that legislation has now
:04:47. > :04:51.been sent back to have another look at, because this will hurt working
:04:52. > :04:56.people across the country. So you do believe they are more in tune than
:04:57. > :05:01.the House of Commons? No, I don't. I want to scrap the House of Lords. It
:05:02. > :05:04.is important to have a second chamber to go over the details when
:05:05. > :05:08.the government gets it wrong but it does not have to be full of Lords in
:05:09. > :05:10.ermine robes and cloth caps. We can do it differently and it is high
:05:11. > :05:20.time that we should. APPLAUSE
:05:21. > :05:24.For me, I don't think the House of Lords should be there, they should
:05:25. > :05:28.be abolished and elected. But practically, my mother relied on tax
:05:29. > :05:33.credits for both me and my brother. If I was brought up now, that would
:05:34. > :05:37.mean she would lose that money. If there was an emergency in my
:05:38. > :05:41.household, say a car breaks down, washing machine, where do you turn
:05:42. > :05:45.when you have no safety net? George Osborne says he wants to get rid of
:05:46. > :05:49.the debt, but what actually happens is payday loans. My mum would have
:05:50. > :05:52.to get a payday loan, she is in debt, and it is fine for the
:05:53. > :05:59.millionaires, isn't it? APPLAUSE
:06:00. > :06:03.I approve of having a second house and every democracy should have won,
:06:04. > :06:09.which is why I am concerned Scotland does not have one. In this case, the
:06:10. > :06:12.Lords did exactly the right thing, thinking -- given what they think
:06:13. > :06:16.about the tax credit debacle. But I am not convinced that means they are
:06:17. > :06:20.in tune with the country on this issue or any others. If you look at
:06:21. > :06:25.the polls on this matter, there was huge public support and remains
:06:26. > :06:28.public support for change to the tax credit regime. So in this case you
:06:29. > :06:34.could say the Lords were more in tune with media opinion than with
:06:35. > :06:40.population opinion. The woman in the front, in the 2nd row. I have to
:06:41. > :06:44.disagree. Scotland does have a second tier, called the public. If
:06:45. > :06:48.the government does not do what we ask, we vote them out. The Lords is
:06:49. > :06:53.completely unelected and needs to be scrapped straightaway. The money we
:06:54. > :06:57.save, why don't we use that to go towards what will be missing from
:06:58. > :07:01.tax credits? There is no need for people to go without tax credits
:07:02. > :07:04.while waiting four years on their wages to hit a living wage. It is
:07:05. > :07:10.disgusting. APPLAUSE
:07:11. > :07:14.On the political point, the House of Commons, after all the Tories have a
:07:15. > :07:18.majority there and they were elected by the UK, do you think it is right
:07:19. > :07:24.that the House of Lords, you don't want a House of Lords? I don't
:07:25. > :07:26.believe in the House of Lords. Because it is not proportional
:07:27. > :07:30.representation, the House of Commons is unfair anyway. Let's change it,
:07:31. > :07:34.get proportional representation, as in Scotland, and when we are not
:07:35. > :07:41.happy, we change the government. Kezia would know about that. The
:07:42. > :07:44.first thing is that the House of Lords is a democratic abomination
:07:45. > :07:48.and we should not have it. It costs a lot of money. If it does something
:07:49. > :07:52.we agree with, that does not justify it and we should get rid of it.
:07:53. > :07:58.There is another democratic element. The point that was made before is
:07:59. > :08:00.that David Cameron was asked by you on a programme before the election
:08:01. > :08:07.if he would lower tax credits and he said he would not. Lo and behold,
:08:08. > :08:11.?4.5 billion of cuts comes forwards. These cuts to family tax credits
:08:12. > :08:15.will help to pay for the tax reduction for those who pay
:08:16. > :08:19.inheritance tax. The poorest will be subsidising some of the most well
:08:20. > :08:27.off. That is not democratic either. There is a good Scots word, and when
:08:28. > :08:30.George Osborne put it in a statutory instrument hoping to squeeze it
:08:31. > :08:34.passed, he was rumbled. None of this justifies the House of Lords, but
:08:35. > :08:39.there is no way for justifying the cut to tax credits. We talk about a
:08:40. > :08:41.ladder of opportunity and the Tories are about taking away the bottom
:08:42. > :08:49.three rungs for ordinary people. APPLAUSE
:08:50. > :08:52.I should say, your leader in Scotland, Ruth Davidson, said the
:08:53. > :08:57.tax credit cuts were not acceptable. We can't have people
:08:58. > :08:59.suffering in this way. So you were voting against the wishes of the
:09:00. > :09:06.Tory leader in Scotland on this occasion. What Ruth made clear was
:09:07. > :09:11.that she supports the aim of the changes, but she felt there was a
:09:12. > :09:16.need to look at those who might be most disproportionately affected.
:09:17. > :09:21.Did you feel that? A view which I share. So why did you vote in
:09:22. > :09:25.favour? Because I supported the principle of what we are trying to
:09:26. > :09:28.achieve, but I have a concern about the impact for certain groups of
:09:29. > :09:32.people on the lower end of the earnings scale, and I have written
:09:33. > :09:36.to the Chancellor about that. Nevertheless, because you thought it
:09:37. > :09:40.was wrong for the House of Lords to overrule George Osborne and the
:09:41. > :09:46.Government, you voted in favour of no change. Had you won the day,
:09:47. > :09:49.there would have been no change. I disagree. The Chancellor had made
:09:50. > :09:53.clear he was in listening mode, and I think that was absolutely right.
:09:54. > :09:58.He did not say that until afterwards. He said before that he
:09:59. > :10:02.was in listening mode, and I think what has happened is a sensible
:10:03. > :10:06.response to this. The Chancellor will look at this and I think that
:10:07. > :10:10.is right. And he will try to ensure the transition is eased so that the
:10:11. > :10:19.people the gentleman was referring to, that and I is kept on that and
:10:20. > :10:23.appropriate steps are taken. Do you agree with what Keith Brown said
:10:24. > :10:28.that Cameron did say that he was not going to do this and then changed
:10:29. > :10:31.his mind? What the Conservatives said in the manifesto was, they laid
:10:32. > :10:35.out how they wanted to continue with the economic recovery. That is why I
:10:36. > :10:40.want to come back to Keith, who is indicating we are living in some
:10:41. > :10:44.sort of economic nightmare. We are not, we are transformed from five
:10:45. > :10:49.years ago. We are transformed in terms of the many more thousands of
:10:50. > :10:53.people, millions of people who have jobs. The question was about the way
:10:54. > :10:58.in which you bring down the deficit and whether Cameron had given the
:10:59. > :11:02.promise. In the manifesto the Conservatives put to the electorate
:11:03. > :11:06.in May, they said we have to keep going with the economic recovery. It
:11:07. > :11:12.is still fragile, we can't walk away from it. That means saving money in
:11:13. > :11:17.a variety of areas. So what you say on Question Time in the run-up to an
:11:18. > :11:22.election does not matter. What you say to David Dimbleby does not
:11:23. > :11:29.matter. That never matters! Everything matters on your
:11:30. > :11:33.programme, David. Billy Bragg. I think that what has happened really
:11:34. > :11:39.is a slight of hand by George Osborne on a number of levels.
:11:40. > :11:48.Firstly, by seeking to appropriate Labour's clothes by announcing a
:11:49. > :11:51.living wage, and then finding out that he has announced a living wage
:11:52. > :11:56.does not really cover in any way the amount that has been taken from
:11:57. > :12:00.people by cuts in tax credits. That has left him rather embarrassingly
:12:01. > :12:08.exposed. The 2nd sleight of hand was to use a statutory instrument to
:12:09. > :12:11.deprive the Labour Party and the SNP and other parties opposed to these
:12:12. > :12:15.tax cuts any time to hold the Government to account over this,
:12:16. > :12:19.wing it into the House of Lords and get it sorted out. This is part of
:12:20. > :12:24.the reason why we need to make the 2nd chamber elected. It is not only
:12:25. > :12:31.because it is the biggest assembly in any democracy in the world, it
:12:32. > :12:35.has 816 members. David Cameron has been the worst for this. He has put
:12:36. > :12:41.more new members in there than any Prime Minister since life peerages
:12:42. > :12:47.were implemented in 1958. He has put 236 peers in there. Still outvoted
:12:48. > :12:51.by the other parties. Now he is turning round and saying what a bad
:12:52. > :12:55.idea it is. The point of the House of Lords is not to represent the
:12:56. > :12:59.people, it does not represent us in any way. But what was proven the
:13:00. > :13:04.other night is the necessity of a revising chamber. We need someone to
:13:05. > :13:08.stand as a backstop in our democracy, but they must be elected.
:13:09. > :13:13.They must be elected. APPLAUSE
:13:14. > :13:17.The reason they need to be elected, and I believe they should be
:13:18. > :13:21.indirectly elected, but the reason they need to be elected is because
:13:22. > :13:27.they need to stop governments, and Blair did this as well, using things
:13:28. > :13:29.like statutory instruments to deprive our elected representatives
:13:30. > :13:34.of the right to hold the Government of the day to account. If the 2nd
:13:35. > :13:38.chamber had teeth, there is no way the Government could whiz stuff
:13:39. > :13:41.through the House of Commons. Reforming the House of Lords helps
:13:42. > :13:47.the House of Commons. The woman at the back. If David Cameron did not
:13:48. > :13:53.lie to everybody, this would not be an issue, would it? If I go for a
:13:54. > :14:00.job and I lie and get found out I would expect to be sacked. Why is he
:14:01. > :14:06.not getting sacked, quite frankly? On the gangway, for throw up. I do
:14:07. > :14:10.agree with the principle that the government should not be topping up
:14:11. > :14:14.low wages but I am confused as to why the cuts in tax credits are
:14:15. > :14:19.coming now and are not coming with the increase in wages. Merryn, what
:14:20. > :14:26.is your view of that? Do you think the timing is wrong? It should have
:14:27. > :14:29.been done at roughly the same time. There is an important point that has
:14:30. > :14:31.not been discussed in the conversation about tax credits,
:14:32. > :14:36.which plays to your point about your mother, which is that we are not
:14:37. > :14:40.just paying tax credits to people in the lower percentage of income, but
:14:41. > :14:44.right up the way, to people in the 2nd and third quintile. It is
:14:45. > :14:52.possible on tax credits, working child credits and others to have a
:14:53. > :14:56.high income. We are paying vast amounts of welfare to what we would
:14:57. > :15:00.consider the middle classes, not just to the lower parts of society.
:15:01. > :15:05.That has not been recognised in the media debate and was not recognised
:15:06. > :15:08.in the Lords either. So this reform is absolutely vital. There has to be
:15:09. > :15:12.considerable reform to welfare. The money we are paying to what most of
:15:13. > :15:17.us consider the middle classes is money that is not being spent on the
:15:18. > :15:20.NHS, pension disasters, education. We have to make choices and right
:15:21. > :15:28.now we are making the wrong ones. APPLAUSE
:15:29. > :15:33.Why isn't the free market paying a proper wage? There is a fundamental
:15:34. > :15:36.failure in the free market paper per wages, because over the years the
:15:37. > :15:40.rights of people to organise in the workplace have been taken away from
:15:41. > :15:43.them. People need more cooperation in the workplace. What is the
:15:44. > :15:48.problem, what is wrong with capitalism? There are lots of
:15:49. > :15:52.problems and one of them is welfare. If a company knows wages will be
:15:53. > :15:55.topped up by the state and taxpayers they have licensed to pay less. You
:15:56. > :15:59.would not shop in Tesco if the people behind the tills were
:16:00. > :16:03.starving to death, of course not. So they would have to pay higher wages.
:16:04. > :16:07.They do not have too because we are topping it up. This is a fundamental
:16:08. > :16:12.problem. There has been a big shift from Labour towards capital but it
:16:13. > :16:16.is shifting back. Capitalism moves in big cycles and we are seeing a
:16:17. > :16:18.proper shift back towards Labour and away from capital. In the 2nd row
:16:19. > :16:31.from the back. I think this situation is ironic.
:16:32. > :16:36.The House of Lords has the chief executive of next saying a person
:16:37. > :16:42.can live in a certain amount of money if you are told your policies
:16:43. > :16:51.are too harsh, how out of touch is the elected government and not how
:16:52. > :17:01.out of touch the is House of Lords? We must go on. Before I take another
:17:02. > :17:07.question, we are going to be in Tottenham next Thursday and Stoke on
:17:08. > :17:13.Trent the Thursday after that. On the screen is the way to apply. I
:17:14. > :17:18.will give the details at the end of the programme. With Jeremy Corbyn as
:17:19. > :17:24.leader, will the Labour Party be saved in Scotland? This is being
:17:25. > :17:34.watched with great interest south of the border. Keith Brown... All the
:17:35. > :17:39.evidence suggests not. Since Jeremy Corbyn was elected, there are a
:17:40. > :17:43.number of reasons for that. We expected to see something different
:17:44. > :17:47.and that has not transpired. One of the big promises was on Trident. We
:17:48. > :17:50.were going to see a real debate in the Labour Party which did not
:17:51. > :17:54.happen at the conference in England. It might happen this weekend in
:17:55. > :17:58.Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn will not be there to see that. We end up with a
:17:59. > :18:04.difficult situation for the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn, whether it
:18:05. > :18:13.is of his making or his party's. He said, I would never press the button
:18:14. > :18:15.for nuclear weapons. It is immoral. You cannot perceive the situation
:18:16. > :18:19.way should be pressing a button. For a party that wants to spend ?160
:18:20. > :18:25.billion on nuclear weapons the leader says he would never use is
:18:26. > :18:29.utterly immoral. Some of the promise which was there and many people
:18:30. > :18:34.brought into that, some literally for ?3 in order to cast a vote.
:18:35. > :18:38.Either he is a prisoner of a party that does not want to change, you do
:18:39. > :18:46.not see much evidence of the kinder, nicer politics from others. I do not
:18:47. > :18:51.think the changes which people expected are being followed through.
:18:52. > :18:55.Who knows over time? There is no evidence as yet. A poll came out
:18:56. > :19:00.which said, since being elected, he has gone down in the polls. If that
:19:01. > :19:05.continues and there is no sign of a Labour revival across the UK, what
:19:06. > :19:08.we are facing in Scotland is virtually perpetual Tory government.
:19:09. > :19:12.There is only one way we can avoid that happening in the future. I do
:19:13. > :19:15.not think that Jeremy Corbyn will oversee an increase in terms of the
:19:16. > :19:22.Labour Party in Scotland. We're not seeing that so far. At every
:19:23. > :19:26.opportunity, the Labour Party says the SNP is bad for everything it has
:19:27. > :19:37.done. I cannot see anything positive. I do not see a bounce.
:19:38. > :19:41.APPLAUSE Kezia Dugdale before the election,
:19:42. > :19:47.it you said about Jeremy Corbyn, you have to convince me he can be Prime
:19:48. > :19:53.Minister. You had rather a low view of him. Now he is leading the Labour
:19:54. > :19:57.Party, what is your view of him? Lots of people have said it was a
:19:58. > :20:01.disparaging remark. I desperately want there to be a Labour government
:20:02. > :20:05.in this country. I want the Tories out. I see Labour as the only party
:20:06. > :20:09.across the whole of the United Kingdom that can stand up for
:20:10. > :20:13.working people. When I cast my vote for who should be Labour leader, I
:20:14. > :20:19.had to focus on the idle could be Prime Minister, uniting this country
:20:20. > :20:27.and making it fairer for everyone. I voted for Yvette Cooper. What I
:20:28. > :20:29.would say to you, I have never said that publicly before but ask a
:20:30. > :20:32.straight question and you get a straight answer. Straight talking,
:20:33. > :20:37.honest politics, as Jeremy would have it. I have spent a lot of time
:20:38. > :20:42.with Jeremy over the past you weeks. He is a man of tremendous
:20:43. > :20:46.principle. He feels the pain of working families across this country
:20:47. > :20:49.in his bones and he will transform this country with a message about
:20:50. > :20:54.why it does not have to be this way. Tomorrow can be better than today.
:20:55. > :21:00.He has the vision we need. I am excited about what he might set out
:21:01. > :21:04.in the months ahead. If I can express your questions specifically,
:21:05. > :21:09.you asked whether the Scottish Labour Party has the future. We are
:21:10. > :21:14.in terrible trouble. It is why I went for the job. The values of the
:21:15. > :21:17.Labour Party are as relevant as they ever have been. Believing in the
:21:18. > :21:21.potential of people and using the power of government to realise that
:21:22. > :21:27.potential, that is the Labour way. I want to build a fairer and more
:21:28. > :21:29.equal country. In the next few months we were see Labour policy
:21:30. > :21:39.platform coming forward to inspire you once again. That was met with
:21:40. > :21:42.silence. Annabel Golding. I think the problem for Labour in the United
:21:43. > :21:47.Kingdom, and in Scotland, people do not know what they stand for. As far
:21:48. > :21:52.as I can understand, on the 1 hand, Jeremy Corbyn wants to espouse a
:21:53. > :21:56.type of socialism which, in terms of his right to do that guy is totally
:21:57. > :22:01.legitimate. It is a form of socialism going back 40 years to the
:22:02. > :22:05.days of Harold Wilson which proved to be completely unelectable. If you
:22:06. > :22:09.look at what Jeremy Corbyn has been talking about, he believes in...
:22:10. > :22:17.Harold Wilson won election after election. No, he did not. He
:22:18. > :22:25.eventually lost. He retired. APPLAUSE
:22:26. > :22:33.What Harold Wilson did was to lead an economic legacy, which was the
:22:34. > :22:38.product of Labour's economic policies, which were a complete
:22:39. > :22:43.failure. It was all about how not to run an economy, how not to generate
:22:44. > :22:49.wealth, create jobs and give people opportunities. That is why we are
:22:50. > :22:52.headed -- we headed into the disaster of the 70s. The
:22:53. > :23:01.International Monetary Fund ran the country. The thing about Jeremy
:23:02. > :23:05.Corbyn, he is, I think, completely incredible on the issue of defence.
:23:06. > :23:09.For me, economy and events are two of the most important obligations
:23:10. > :23:14.for government. I respect that Keith has a view about Trident. I respect
:23:15. > :23:19.his view and there is a clarity about the SNP position, it does not
:23:20. > :23:24.want Trident. Jeremy Corbyn does not believe in Trident, he does not
:23:25. > :23:30.believe in the nuclear deterrent. He is not keen on military forces. He
:23:31. > :23:33.has Shadow Cabinet colleagues who do believe in Trident. In Scotland no 1
:23:34. > :23:45.knows what Labour believes. Kezia Dugdale Trident. Is that true? You
:23:46. > :23:51.cannot run a party like that. Do you believe in Trident? I am a
:23:52. > :23:57.multilateralist. I stood on a platform to lead by party, to lead a
:23:58. > :24:00.more democratic party. I am given the power to decide our party
:24:01. > :24:04.position to our membership this weekend. I think there are mixed
:24:05. > :24:08.views on this position regardless of party politics. The good thing to do
:24:09. > :24:11.is to be honest and frank about it. My party is not in trouble because
:24:12. > :24:21.people do not know where we stood on the issue of Trident, my party is in
:24:22. > :24:24.trouble... I got this message loud and clear from the general election
:24:25. > :24:26.result, people thought we were run from Westminster and the Scottish
:24:27. > :24:28.Labour Party did not put Scotland first. I am going to turn that
:24:29. > :24:31.around. That is why have been talking about a more autonomous
:24:32. > :24:39.Scottish Labour Party determining our future in Scotland. You will
:24:40. > :24:42.have two parties? It is not an independent party, it is an
:24:43. > :24:47.autonomous party. There are lots of examples of this across Europe. If
:24:48. > :24:53.this does not work at the elections in May and the Tories get more votes
:24:54. > :24:58.than you... In Scotland? I think you will find that is very unlikely.
:24:59. > :25:06.Would your position as leader be on the line? That is not really for me.
:25:07. > :25:12.It would be great you could say, I am resigning. I do not expect the
:25:13. > :25:19.fortunes of the Labour Party in Scotland can be turned around
:25:20. > :25:24.overnight. Let's just hear from some members of the audience. Let's go to
:25:25. > :25:29.you over here, in the spectacles. When considering the question, we
:25:30. > :25:32.should consider it on two grounds, the crucial need for a voice in
:25:33. > :25:37.Scotland in the Westminster Parliament and a need for a party to
:25:38. > :25:46.take into consideration Scottish issues and needs. And reiterating
:25:47. > :25:52.them in the Westminster Parliament. When considering Corbyn as Leader of
:25:53. > :25:58.the Labour Party, the problem, and I think it has been clearly shown in
:25:59. > :26:04.the media of the incompetency he has of running the Labour Party. As the
:26:05. > :26:08.panel has most kindly said, the problem he has with the Shadow
:26:09. > :26:11.Cabinet, the problem he has with members of his party standing
:26:12. > :26:20.against him and public are giving statements against things that he is
:26:21. > :26:23.saying that the party should be focusing on. In effect you are
:26:24. > :26:30.saying he cannot restore Labour in Scotland. I am saying there is a
:26:31. > :26:35.competency in his leadership. You, sir. One of the biggest problems
:26:36. > :26:38.with this entire thing is the fact that 60% of members in Labour voted
:26:39. > :26:47.for Corbyn yet there are so many MPs within Labour who are not publicly
:26:48. > :26:49.yet, but voting against him. It shows how divided Labour is. They
:26:50. > :26:57.need to show more togetherness rather than having a broken apart
:26:58. > :27:03.party. Togetherness means, who wins? I think they should back the leader
:27:04. > :27:07.and have a debate that, at the same time, I think there should be more
:27:08. > :27:11.togetherness. Labour is a party that is very much supposed to be about
:27:12. > :27:18.togetherness and I feel it has gone against that. Both those comments
:27:19. > :27:23.have touched on Kezia Dugdale is a real problem. The silence you heard
:27:24. > :27:27.after your first comment is the sound of scepticism. The people of
:27:28. > :27:31.Scotland are not stupid. They recognise that where Teva Corbyn
:27:32. > :27:34.says and stands for, it does not have the support of the
:27:35. > :27:38.Parliamentary Labour Party. He can come up with some great ideas but
:27:39. > :27:43.they cannot be carried through. He has the support of the leadership
:27:44. > :27:48.but he does not have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:27:49. > :27:52.Until that is resolved, that will not happen. You cannot expect the
:27:53. > :27:56.leader of a British mainstream political party to talk about
:27:57. > :28:00.independence. That is not possible. Corbyn must have something to say
:28:01. > :28:04.about self-determination to the people of Scotland. I do not
:28:05. > :28:08.understand why he is not talking about federalism. The answer to the
:28:09. > :28:12.West Lothian question is not English votes for English laws, the answer
:28:13. > :28:15.is, if you have a Scottish parliament, you have to have an
:28:16. > :28:22.English Parliament. I really think if the Labour Party could come out
:28:23. > :28:25.in favour of federalism, not only would they have something to talk to
:28:26. > :28:28.people in Scotland about, they would also be able to speak to a lot of
:28:29. > :28:33.people who feel disenfranchised in England. A new Assembly would surely
:28:34. > :28:37.be elected under proportional representation, to give
:28:38. > :28:40.representation to the people who are disenfranchised and voting Ukip at
:28:41. > :28:46.the last election. I do not know why they are not talking about it.
:28:47. > :28:53.APPLAUSE The man with the spectacles on.
:28:54. > :28:57.Jeremy Corbyn will go down as the man who consolidated the two parties
:28:58. > :29:04.in Scotland and England into two-party state. He is that
:29:05. > :29:08.unpopular. The SNP and the Conservatives in England. You think
:29:09. > :29:18.that will happen? It has already happened. I would not write him off
:29:19. > :29:22.yet. Hang on. Look at what he has faced, the media onslaught, people
:29:23. > :29:27.raking through his bins, cameras in his face when he goes out to collect
:29:28. > :29:32.the papers. Empty of people do not want him to do well. I look beyond
:29:33. > :29:35.the Parliamentary Labour Party and I see a growing political movement,
:29:36. > :29:40.660,000 people signed up to be a member of the party, to support the
:29:41. > :29:50.Labour Party. That is a tremendous step forward. I have said tonight I
:29:51. > :29:53.did not vote for him but I am 100% loyal to him because I believe in
:29:54. > :29:54.the Labour Party and I believe in what it can do to transform the
:29:55. > :30:05.fortunes of this country. I wouldn't write off Jeremy Corbyn.
:30:06. > :30:09.It doesn't take much for a crisis to change people's mines, and there are
:30:10. > :30:13.many potential crises out there. Going back to Scotland, the
:30:14. > :30:17.interesting point is that Scotland is not as left wing as it thinks it
:30:18. > :30:20.is. The social attitude surveys which are done in Scotland and
:30:21. > :30:25.Britain, if you flick through those, they are statistically
:30:26. > :30:28.significant, and you can see that on almost every issue the Scottish, as
:30:29. > :30:33.a whole, tend to think about things in the same way as the English.
:30:34. > :30:38.Scotland is not, by its nature, as left wing as it likes to think it
:30:39. > :30:43.is. What do you mean as it likes to think it is? When you read Scottish
:30:44. > :30:46.newspapers, talk to the Scots, or if you ask them if they are more
:30:47. > :30:51.left-wing than the English, they say yes. But the social attitude surveys
:30:52. > :30:54.do not tell you that, they tell you that generally the Scottish and
:30:55. > :30:59.English think about things in a remarkably significant way. The only
:31:00. > :31:04.significant difference is the EU. My point being that it is very hard for
:31:05. > :31:09.there to be two parties in Scotland that are perceived as left wing, the
:31:10. > :31:13.SNP and Labour. They cannot really coexist. If you are going to have
:31:14. > :31:20.separate parties, there has to be a third party. Is the SNP perceived as
:31:21. > :31:23.left wing? You have certainly taken the left very firmly from Labour, no
:31:24. > :31:29.doubt about that. They certainly present as. We have this quite a
:31:30. > :31:33.lot, and we often get it from the Labour Party that you are not
:31:34. > :31:36.redistributive, not anti-austerities. To give concrete
:31:37. > :31:40.examples, but we have put to the parliament is free school meals,
:31:41. > :31:45.which was opposed by the Labour Party in the parliament. We have
:31:46. > :31:50.also led in terms of the council tax benefit, made sure the bedroom tax
:31:51. > :31:53.did not hurt people in Scotland, unlike Wales where Labour are in
:31:54. > :31:58.control. So there is a lot we do that is redistributive. We are also
:31:59. > :32:02.pro-business, especially small business. The crucial point is the
:32:03. > :32:07.point that Kezia made, if the Labour Party this weekend discusses trident
:32:08. > :32:13.and comes out against spending ?167 billion of your money on Trident,
:32:14. > :32:16.will Kezia then say to Ian Murray, the sole remaining Labour MP in
:32:17. > :32:20.Scotland, when you go to London you must vote against Trident? That will
:32:21. > :32:29.be the test of whether we have an autonomous Labour Party. Generally
:32:30. > :32:32.speaking, most left wing Scott 's identifiers nationalists and
:32:33. > :32:36.therefore vote SNP, regardless of whether or not they are as left wing
:32:37. > :32:39.as they say they are. I don't understand how Scottish Labour can
:32:40. > :32:43.move to the left and expect to pick up these nationalists who vote for
:32:44. > :32:47.the SNP because they are nationalists. Therefore, the only
:32:48. > :32:51.place you can pick up voters from the centre and the right, and Jeremy
:32:52. > :32:55.Corbyn is not going to win them. All that Jeremy Corbyn is doing is
:32:56. > :32:59.failing to win voters that have gone to the SNP and driving others to the
:33:00. > :33:08.Tories, who by the way were one percentage point behind Labour last
:33:09. > :33:14.time I checked in the polls. Nobody thought that sending a parliament to
:33:15. > :33:17.Scotland would lead towards a more independent Scotland. Everybody
:33:18. > :33:22.thought that it would kill the issue of independence. It didn't. Nobody
:33:23. > :33:25.thought that 45% of the Scottish people would vote in favour of
:33:26. > :33:29.independence but they didn't. So to sit there and tell me what is going
:33:30. > :33:34.to happen to Jeremy Corbyn, mate, I think you have another thing coming.
:33:35. > :33:39.I look forward to the landslide, Billy. What people want from
:33:40. > :33:43.politics is changing. It is easily visible in Scotland, not yet in
:33:44. > :33:48.England, but Jeremy Corbyn is a representative of that urge for
:33:49. > :33:51.change. This is grassroots Labour. The reason Ed Miliband did not win
:33:52. > :33:55.last time was because that was the old way of doing things, a hollowed
:33:56. > :33:59.out party, top-down orders and the membership disregarded. All of this
:34:00. > :34:03.is changing and the sort of excitement I saw in Scotland during
:34:04. > :34:06.the independence campaign, and I was fortunate to be in Scotland on the
:34:07. > :34:10.day the yes campaign were first put forward to win, we are starting to
:34:11. > :34:15.feel that excitement in England because Jeremy is the leader. We
:34:16. > :34:18.just have to convince first the parliamentary Labour Party and then
:34:19. > :34:23.everybody else that he really does represent genuine positive change.
:34:24. > :34:28.You can't convince your own party, you can't convince the electorate.
:34:29. > :34:31.As I said, we first have two convince the party and I hope they
:34:32. > :34:43.are all watching this and thinking about this. A few more points and
:34:44. > :34:47.then another question. At the end of May when I was looking at the four
:34:48. > :34:52.Labour leadership candidates, I looked at them all, Burnham, Cooper,
:34:53. > :34:59.Kendall, and I joined the Scottish Green Party. I can't bear to vote
:35:00. > :35:04.for any of these people. This is not the Labour Party I want to be even
:35:05. > :35:09.affiliated with. And then Corbyn got nominated and, well... But I don't
:35:10. > :35:13.know if Jeremy Corbyn can save the Scottish Labour Party because I
:35:14. > :35:16.don't know if his MPs will let him, but I do know that none of the
:35:17. > :35:20.leadership candidates had a chance, and I like Jeremy Corbyn, he has
:35:21. > :35:26.popular, middle-of-the-road left-wing opinions. Polling says
:35:27. > :35:29.what Jeremy Corbyn once domestically, rayon mashed
:35:30. > :35:38.novelisation, save the NHS, is what people want. -- rail
:35:39. > :35:42.nationalisation. Firstly, when they had a huge
:35:43. > :35:45.majority in Westminster, Labour ignored Scotland and took Scottish
:35:46. > :35:50.MPs for granted and thought they would always get 50 MPs up here.
:35:51. > :35:53.Secondly, they did the dirty work for the Tories during the referendum
:35:54. > :36:01.campaign. As simple as that. APPLAUSE
:36:02. > :36:06.I think we should go to another question.
:36:07. > :36:13.Was it right to bail out the banks but not the steel industry? There
:36:14. > :36:19.are various measures being proposed to help the steel industry but no
:36:20. > :36:26.bailout. Merryn. And unpopular answer but yes, we absolutely were.
:36:27. > :36:30.I think it is generally good to try and avoid bailing out industries,
:36:31. > :36:32.but there is a good case for bailing out industries that are in
:36:33. > :36:36.short-term trouble and systemically important to an economy and will
:36:37. > :36:40.definitely return to profit. That has been the case with the banks,
:36:41. > :36:45.approve or not of the way the financial industry works. It has
:36:46. > :36:50.returned to profit. It is a long-term, sustainable business.
:36:51. > :36:53.Other businesses are not necessarily long-term sustainable and the truth
:36:54. > :36:56.is that the steel industry falls into that group. It has been in
:36:57. > :37:01.trouble for a long time and is in trouble now, and I can't see it
:37:02. > :37:04.being the case in five years, seven years, ten years that we suddenly
:37:05. > :37:09.have a profitable steel industry that can last for the long-term. So
:37:10. > :37:13.we should not, I don't think, be looking to bail out that kind of
:37:14. > :37:16.industry. What we should be doing is looking to help the people that are
:37:17. > :37:21.suffering as a result of that industry. So we can't help the steel
:37:22. > :37:29.industry but we can help the steelworkers afterwards. Kezia
:37:30. > :37:35.Dugdale, do you agree? No. I really don't. If you look at the two plants
:37:36. > :37:39.in Scotland, they do road steel plate. As I understand it those
:37:40. > :37:41.plants are profitable. The reason they are closing down is that Tata
:37:42. > :37:48.want to make savings across the whole of their bases. I think the
:37:49. > :37:51.plants in Scotland have a viable future, there is a positive future
:37:52. > :37:56.for steel production in this country but we have to take steps to realise
:37:57. > :38:01.that. We need some new assets in those plants so they can make more
:38:02. > :38:04.than one thing. We have to protect the highly skilled engineers that
:38:05. > :38:08.work in the plants. Short time working would do that, letting these
:38:09. > :38:14.jobs stay for a few days per week until we can get a new company into
:38:15. > :38:17.the plant to operate it. And we should use Scottish steel in
:38:18. > :38:20.Scottish products, put it in the heart of our infrastructure and
:38:21. > :38:24.everything we are the building. I think there is a viable future for
:38:25. > :38:28.this industry that we have to believe it, not just manage the
:38:29. > :38:32.decline. That is not acceptable. APPLAUSE
:38:33. > :38:38.What is the Scottish Government's review? It is difficult but not
:38:39. > :38:41.impossible. A few months ago, the last shipbuilding concern on the
:38:42. > :38:45.Clyde was about to go to the wall. Through a lot of effort that has now
:38:46. > :38:51.been saved and it is now prospering in terms of orders for new ferries.
:38:52. > :38:55.You also had Prestwick airport which was going to the wall with the loss
:38:56. > :38:59.of thousands of jobs in the West of Scotland and we did essentially
:39:00. > :39:03.nationalise that. Coming back to the point about the banks, why did we
:39:04. > :39:06.bail out the banks? We were told they were a cornerstone of the
:39:07. > :39:10.system and you need the banking system. But the perception for most
:39:11. > :39:14.people was that you were keeping the banks so that they could continue to
:39:15. > :39:18.lend to people and businesses. But they used the money they got from us
:39:19. > :39:22.to build up their capital sheets. Even now they are not lending to
:39:23. > :39:30.small businesses. There is a contrast today with David Cameron in
:39:31. > :39:34.Iceland. Ice and jailed the bankers. -- Icelander. Corrupting the LIBOR
:39:35. > :39:39.mechanism, the cornerstone of the capitalist system, corrupting that,
:39:40. > :39:42.and they are now looking to ease back on the regulations. These were
:39:43. > :39:48.huge crimes, nobody has gone to jail for that. There is a court case
:39:49. > :39:51.ongoing but nobody has gone to jail. In Iceland, they jailed the bankers
:39:52. > :39:52.when they were found to be corrupt and we should have done the same
:39:53. > :40:01.thing. APPLAUSE
:40:02. > :40:05.Are you going to bail out the steel plants? As I said, the Scottish
:40:06. > :40:09.Government has started working, there was a meeting today for the
:40:10. > :40:14.first time with the concerns. We want to keep it viable. One last
:40:15. > :40:21.word on the banks. You have said a lot on the Goldie. I think it is
:40:22. > :40:25.important that politicians are realistic about what we can do in a
:40:26. > :40:30.difficult situation like this and equally realistic about what we
:40:31. > :40:34.cannot do. I am struck by what Keith Brown is saying because it is a
:40:35. > :40:37.departure from the line of the Scottish Government, which has said
:40:38. > :40:40.that if the two steel plants in Scotland can find a commercial buyer
:40:41. > :40:46.it will do everything to assist that. I think that is sensible and a
:40:47. > :40:50.realistic way to go forward. I think what government can also do, as is
:40:51. > :40:56.happening with the UK Government, they are attempting to ensure that
:40:57. > :40:59.projects within this country will procure British steel. I think that
:41:00. > :41:04.is a very good way to go forward. They are providing help to people
:41:05. > :41:10.affected at the moment. But I think we have to be very clear about how I
:41:11. > :41:14.think not viable it is for a government to buy a failing
:41:15. > :41:17.industry. If it is failing because there is not a demand for product
:41:18. > :41:22.out there at a price that will keep the industry going. That is the
:41:23. > :41:26.difficulty. Steele has global oversupply and the price has
:41:27. > :41:29.plummeted. That is bitter, harsh and difficult for the workers in the
:41:30. > :41:36.plants affected, but it does mean that when you talk, as Kezia did,
:41:37. > :41:40.about trying to take it over because it is basically profitable, well, it
:41:41. > :41:43.is not profitable if actually market prices will not give the company the
:41:44. > :41:48.return it needs to keep the thing going. And that is the dilemma and I
:41:49. > :41:53.think politicians have to be utterly realistic about where they can help.
:41:54. > :41:57.They can help in many ways but they have two be realistic about what is
:41:58. > :42:03.not viable. You cannot take over an industry that has not apparently got
:42:04. > :42:07.a viable commercial future. It is not fair to taxpayers, not fair to
:42:08. > :42:11.public services, because you create a drain on the public purse by using
:42:12. > :42:20.money, sadly, for something that cannot give a return. You have made
:42:21. > :42:24.the point. You, on the right. Is it possible for British industry, such
:42:25. > :42:30.as the steel industry, to compete with China, India, those economies?
:42:31. > :42:40.Is it your view that it is possible? I don't really think it is. I just
:42:41. > :42:42.wonder if there is a way that we can produce higher quality goods and
:42:43. > :42:55.encourage our industry to do that, rather than just shelving the
:42:56. > :42:59.plants. Well, Adams and, going for some local colour, said there was an
:43:00. > :43:03.invisible hand, capitalism worked with an invisible hand that would
:43:04. > :43:07.deal with, like the laws of the jungle, would deal with businesses
:43:08. > :43:11.that are not viable. This is what is being given to the steelworkers. The
:43:12. > :43:15.invisible hand of capitalism is strangling their hopes for the
:43:16. > :43:21.future. Whereas the bankers at RBS, the invisible hand just tickled
:43:22. > :43:25.them. By the rules set down by Adam Smith, those banks should have
:43:26. > :43:29.failed. We could not let them fail because of how important they are to
:43:30. > :43:33.our economy. But having rescued the banks, we are letting them get up
:43:34. > :43:39.and do exactly the same thing as before. We need to be making sure
:43:40. > :43:42.that the banks we have nationalised, particularly the biggest, RBS, we
:43:43. > :43:46.should have made it into a national bank and said, it is not going to
:43:47. > :43:51.speculate on the stock market, it is going to help small to medium
:43:52. > :43:55.businesses, help the community. But the Tories have a total rejection of
:43:56. > :44:01.any kind of nationalisation. They see that the free market should go
:44:02. > :44:06.into places like Redcar, Motherwell... You would nationalise
:44:07. > :44:10.the steel industry? It should not be socialism for the bankers and
:44:11. > :44:20.capitalism for the steelworkers. APPLAUSE
:44:21. > :44:24.Does he convince you? Working in the financial services industry myself,
:44:25. > :44:31.recently for RBS, I think it is not quite as clear-cut as that. It never
:44:32. > :44:36.is for bankers! I am not a banker, I work for bank. I am just saying, for
:44:37. > :44:42.bankers it is or was blurred, they never quite did it themselves. There
:44:43. > :44:47.is the casino banking side of things, then there is the retail
:44:48. > :44:54.side. There has been legislation trying to separate those two. Would
:44:55. > :44:58.that be viable? I think it is. What about his answer on the steel
:44:59. > :45:03.industry, because you made the point that it could not sell because of
:45:04. > :45:08.Chinese and Indian steel? It is difficult to compete on a global
:45:09. > :45:10.market. How can we expect workers in this country, with the
:45:11. > :45:15.quality-of-life and lifestyles that we have, how can we expect them to
:45:16. > :45:19.work for as little as people are prepared to in developing countries?
:45:20. > :45:22.That is not to say it is acceptable for people in developing countries,
:45:23. > :45:33.but their cost of his much lower. The man in the pink.
:45:34. > :45:41.I think it is appalling the bankers were bailed out. Those at the bottom
:45:42. > :45:46.of the heap are struggling. Why don't they refinanced and restart
:45:47. > :45:50.the major British industries and give people a meaningful employment
:45:51. > :45:54.like they have before. The Germans still have a perfectly good steel
:45:55. > :45:58.industry and so do other European countries. Why can we not do that?
:45:59. > :46:06.The cost of power in this country is massive.
:46:07. > :46:12.APPLAUSE That is a very important point. You
:46:13. > :46:19.are quite correct. Industries like steel have been suffering hugely
:46:20. > :46:23.with energy charges. The bottom line remains. If global prices and
:46:24. > :46:26.pressures mean you do not have a market for what you're doing at a
:46:27. > :46:33.price you can sustain it, you have a problem. I was wanting to pick up
:46:34. > :46:40.particularly on what you said about banking being a sustainable
:46:41. > :46:46.business. I do not want to direct this question just a Cuba industries
:46:47. > :46:53.in the UK seem to be disappearing more and more. One of the
:46:54. > :46:58.extraordinary things about this discussion is there is a lot of
:46:59. > :47:05.grandstanding. Steel is something special. Why aren't accountants
:47:06. > :47:12.special? Why aren't journalists special? In my industry, jealous are
:47:13. > :47:17.losing jobs every day. Two local newspapers shut down in Scotland
:47:18. > :47:20.every week. I do not see anyone stepping in to save us,
:47:21. > :47:28.nationalising the newspaper business. That is not happening.
:47:29. > :47:32.Manufacturing is considering to be something everyone can grandstand
:47:33. > :47:38.about. A still working job is not superior to an accountancy job, a
:47:39. > :47:43.financial services job, a journalist job, working for a printing
:47:44. > :47:51.company, it just is not and we should not behave as though it is.
:47:52. > :48:00.Kezia Dugdale this is more than a job, it is an iconic Scottish
:48:01. > :48:03.industry. That is grandstanding. You cannot protect the past at the
:48:04. > :48:10.expense of the future. Every time you say and industry is iconic... I
:48:11. > :48:14.listened to your point of view, let me say mindful that the reason the
:48:15. > :48:19.cost is so low is because the Chinese are dumping steel onto our
:48:20. > :48:22.markets. We can build a viable future for this industry for years
:48:23. > :48:30.government money to help diversify the kind of products they make. What
:48:31. > :48:34.do you mean by iconic? It is the skyline of central Scotland, to see
:48:35. > :48:38.the steelworks, the pride people have in the jobs. When the steel
:48:39. > :48:42.industry goes, a whole generation of Scottish history goes with it. I am
:48:43. > :48:49.not prepared to see the light go out without a fight. I believe there is
:48:50. > :48:54.a viable future for the industry. I applaud your passion. Nobody doubts
:48:55. > :48:58.for one moment your sincerity about the issue. Under Labour 16,000 steel
:48:59. > :49:02.jobs were lost under the last government. Why was this policy and
:49:03. > :49:09.support not adopted then? APPLAUSE
:49:10. > :49:13.The original question was about fairness and justice and how we have
:49:14. > :49:16.treated bags and how we are currently treating the steel
:49:17. > :49:23.industry. Until we deal with the legacy of the banking crisis and
:49:24. > :49:27.hold those to account properly, and it includes possibly sequestering
:49:28. > :49:31.the assets that are owned by key individuals who are responsible for
:49:32. > :49:36.that, we could be using that money to finance a whole number of
:49:37. > :49:42.different things. Somebody in the fourth row has had her hand up for a
:49:43. > :49:46.long time. If we let the steel industry fall by the wayside, what
:49:47. > :49:50.are we going to do to plug the gap? It sounds a lot like the
:49:51. > :49:54.conversation we had in the 1980s under Thatcher when the coal
:49:55. > :50:00.industry declined and thousands and thousands of jobs were lost yet,
:50:01. > :50:03.still today, there are whole communities across the whole of
:50:04. > :50:08.Scotland, the north-east of England and Wales, who are still depressed,
:50:09. > :50:11.without jobs, nothing. If you are going to let the steel industry
:50:12. > :50:18.fail, you need to replace it with something.
:50:19. > :50:23.APPLAUSE Can a country like Britain afford to
:50:24. > :50:28.lose its manufacturing base? That is what you are talking about. Can we,
:50:29. > :50:36.as a modern economy, afford to have no manufacturing base? Aye first I
:50:37. > :50:41.would say, a job is a job is a job. It does not matter if it is
:50:42. > :50:47.manufacturing or not. We still have a manufacturing base. We have a high
:50:48. > :50:51.quality manufacturing base. If you look at the North of England, there
:50:52. > :50:59.is solid manufacturing and it is growing. The man in the blue shirt.
:51:00. > :51:06.Why is the Forth crossing not being made with British Steel?
:51:07. > :51:12.APPLAUSE Just briefly, we have a number of
:51:13. > :51:16.questions. It is Scottish steel being used in the bridge. The main
:51:17. > :51:20.part of the steel contract, there was no bid from anywhere in Scotland
:51:21. > :51:24.was not made in Scotland. That steel is not made in Scotland any more.
:51:25. > :51:30.The last point I want to make is about the banks. When they sold off
:51:31. > :51:34.the shares of Lloyds, they took -- we took a ?1 billion hit. We sold
:51:35. > :51:38.them off for less than they were worth all to imagine what we could
:51:39. > :51:42.have done for the steel industry if we got the right rate. That shows
:51:43. > :51:47.the way we treat manufacturing differently. It is not because it is
:51:48. > :51:53.iconic, it is about a 50-year-old male, for example, a steel worker.
:51:54. > :51:57.He knows if the steel industry goes he will not get a chance to get
:51:58. > :52:02.another job. It is nothing to do the iconic nature of the industry, it is
:52:03. > :52:06.an iconic industry and it is about safeguarding people stop. It is very
:52:07. > :52:09.difficult in those communities to get another job. That is why we have
:52:10. > :52:15.to save them. APPLAUSE
:52:16. > :52:21.Time for a question from you, Jackie. Should there be any enquiry
:52:22. > :52:24.into that the delay of the Chilcott enquiry and, if so, how long with
:52:25. > :52:32.this take? APPLAUSE
:52:33. > :52:42.We are going to get it by June or July. Billy Bragg... I really think
:52:43. > :52:46.there should be. I think the process of asking people to respond to what
:52:47. > :52:51.is there, I do not see why it has taken such a long time. It is
:52:52. > :52:54.relatively straightforward. Consideration should have been given
:52:55. > :52:57.to the sensibilities of families of service men and women who have
:52:58. > :53:03.served there, some of whom never came back. The fact it has taken so
:53:04. > :53:06.long as less so much speculation. It has only been bad for the idea that
:53:07. > :53:12.ultimately if we do find out what Chilcott thing for those who made
:53:13. > :53:15.mistakes, those who are responsible, will be held to account. We have
:53:16. > :53:19.already seen Tony Blair tried to get his to Penrith in before it all
:53:20. > :53:26.comes back. I am sure the Americans do have a big part to play as they
:53:27. > :53:30.supplied the original intelligence which led to the dodgy dossier.
:53:31. > :53:34.Whether they are trying to hold it back, I do not know. The British
:53:35. > :53:39.public really does deserve to know the truth about what happened, why
:53:40. > :53:43.we were involved in Iraq. The issue still divides people very heavily.
:53:44. > :53:47.The sooner it comes out and the sooner we can talk about it, the
:53:48. > :53:55.better it will be, not just as, but more importantly for the families
:53:56. > :54:02.who lost loved ones. Kezia Dugdale has it been and Julie delayed?
:54:03. > :54:07.People have said that Tony Blair might have tried to hold it up? It
:54:08. > :54:11.certainly feels that way for the it should be published at the earliest
:54:12. > :54:17.possible opportunity, and that should be yesterday. It does account
:54:18. > :54:21.to 2 million words. It will be huge and will take people a long time to
:54:22. > :54:29.get their heads around it. People need to know what has happened. Our
:54:30. > :54:32.experience of Iraq has clouded our approach and attitudes towards UK
:54:33. > :54:38.foreign affairs for a decade. As a country, I do not think we can ever
:54:39. > :54:47.move on until we have this report. It needs to be published now. The
:54:48. > :54:51.British public needs to know. Can you imagine, if you are a soldier
:54:52. > :54:54.going to Iraq, you are told you are going there because of weapons of
:54:55. > :55:00.mass destruction, can imagine seeing your mates being killed and then
:55:01. > :55:05.finding there were no weapons of mass destruction? That would have
:55:06. > :55:11.been horrific. In personnel. These families are trying to find out
:55:12. > :55:18.answers. The second point... Ayew critical of the delay? I think the
:55:19. > :55:24.delay is appalling. -- Ayew critical? For years later, a half
:55:25. > :55:33.promise which may come out next year. We are told it will be vetted
:55:34. > :55:37.for national-security reasons. What was said? Is the stuff going to be
:55:38. > :55:44.lifted out of the process? APPLAUSE
:55:45. > :55:49.At the very least, there has to be a democratic oversight of anything
:55:50. > :55:54.that is taken out. Summary needs to look and needs to make sure they're
:55:55. > :56:00.not just covering someone's embarrassment. Are you worried about
:56:01. > :56:06.the announcement they will have a security check about what has been
:56:07. > :56:10.said by Chilcott? I totally and stand the best racing and anger
:56:11. > :56:17.about the delay. I know it has been complex and a huge form of enquiry.
:56:18. > :56:20.The Prime Minister vented that frustration. He said to Sir John
:56:21. > :56:26.Chilcott, we need to get this done and dusted. There are interests of
:56:27. > :56:30.families, of service men and women who are over there, interests of the
:56:31. > :56:35.public to know what happened and why decisions were made. As to the
:56:36. > :56:39.security issues, we have still to bear in mind we have service men and
:56:40. > :56:44.women engaged in conflicts elsewhere. We have a difficult
:56:45. > :56:54.situation at the moment in relation to Syria. Yes, I think there may be
:56:55. > :56:58.intelligent security issues. What the public is wanting and making a
:56:59. > :57:05.demand for, we need this enquiry produced now, please get in public
:57:06. > :57:10.as quickly as possible. We will not work -- know what is taken out for
:57:11. > :57:16.security reasons, are you concerned about that? I am concerned about the
:57:17. > :57:21.whole thing. I am amazed it was not time-limited in the first place. The
:57:22. > :57:26.main thing that I think politicians should be considering here, trust
:57:27. > :57:30.has gone from politics in the UK. It has gone across the board, not just
:57:31. > :57:36.in the UK but across much of the world. This is exactly the kind of
:57:37. > :57:41.reason why. You asked a simple question, you think you can get an
:57:42. > :57:46.answer in less than 2 million words and you cannot and you do not.
:57:47. > :57:54.We're in North London next week with writer and broadcaster Victoria
:57:55. > :57:57.Coren, Chuka Umunna for Labour, and Justine Greening for the Tories.
:57:58. > :58:06.The following week we'll be in Stoke-on-Trent.
:58:07. > :58:09.To be in the audience for either programme - London or
:58:10. > :58:12.Stoke - apply by going to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88.
:58:13. > :58:15.If you are listening on Radio 5Live, you can continue the debate
:58:16. > :58:29.We will debate in our own way what we have been hearing but the
:58:30. > :58:33.programme has to come to an end. My thanks to the panel and all of you
:58:34. > :58:37.and everyone he has come here to take part. Thank you very much
:58:38. > :58:41.indeed. Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.