0:00:03 > 0:00:06This is London and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16You may be watching, you may be listening on the radio,
0:00:16 > 0:00:19welcome and welcome to our audience here and, of course, to our panel.
0:00:19 > 0:00:20Tonight, our panel is
0:00:20 > 0:00:24the Conservative International Development Secretary
0:00:24 > 0:00:25Justine Greening,
0:00:25 > 0:00:28Labour's Chuka Umunna, who returned to the back benches
0:00:28 > 0:00:31rather than serve in Corbyn's shadow cabinet,
0:00:31 > 0:00:35the Green Party's first appointment to the House of Lords, Jenny Jones,
0:00:35 > 0:00:38the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens
0:00:38 > 0:00:39and the writer, broadcaster
0:00:39 > 0:00:43and professional poker player Victoria Coren Mitchell.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45APPLAUSE
0:00:55 > 0:00:57And as ever, if you want to join in the debate
0:00:57 > 0:01:00and the argument that goes on here tonight, you can text
0:01:00 > 0:01:04or tweet our hashtag, "bbcqt", you can follow us at @BBCQuestionTime,
0:01:04 > 0:01:08text comments to 83981, push the red button to see what others are saying.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12Let's have our first question from Zayid Ahmed, please.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Would you support junior doctors if they decide to go on strike?
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Would you support junior doctors if they decide to go on strike?
0:01:18 > 0:01:20Justine Greening.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Well, I think what needs to happen
0:01:22 > 0:01:24is people need to get around the table
0:01:24 > 0:01:27and talk through to getting a proper solution
0:01:27 > 0:01:31to this junior doctors contract change.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33What we're trying to do is make sure
0:01:33 > 0:01:35that the NHS can work seven days a week
0:01:35 > 0:01:39and really provide outstanding services. At the same time,
0:01:39 > 0:01:43we also know that many junior doctors are completely overworked
0:01:43 > 0:01:48at the weekend and in fact there are some that work over 91 hours a week.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50So these two things go hand in hand.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54Three years ago, the government started negotiating with the BMA.
0:01:54 > 0:01:58Clearly we've not reached a conclusion with them yet.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Jeremy Hunt put a new, revised offer on the table yesterday
0:02:01 > 0:02:06and I think what we all need now is for people to perhaps set aside
0:02:06 > 0:02:09the discussions and the arguments that they've had up until now
0:02:09 > 0:02:11and just get round the table
0:02:11 > 0:02:14and work through these differences, because in the end...
0:02:14 > 0:02:17Would you oppose them if they decided to strike?
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Would the government say, "That's not right, you shouldn't,"
0:02:20 > 0:02:22or would they say, "Well, we've done our best,
0:02:22 > 0:02:24"you've got an absolute right to go on strike."
0:02:24 > 0:02:27I've talked to junior doctors in my constituency
0:02:27 > 0:02:29and I understand their frustration,
0:02:29 > 0:02:32so I just think in the end they're hugely committed to the NHS
0:02:32 > 0:02:35and I think the best thing we can all do
0:02:35 > 0:02:38is actually get round the table and talk, find a resolution
0:02:38 > 0:02:42that means they don't feel they need to do that any more. Victoria.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44Now, as I understand it, it's rather difficult, though,
0:02:44 > 0:02:46for them to get round the table and negotiate,
0:02:46 > 0:02:48because haven't they been told by Jeremy Hunt
0:02:48 > 0:02:51that if they don't basically agree all the proposals,
0:02:51 > 0:02:52it'll be imposed on them?
0:02:52 > 0:02:55So I think they're allowed to quibble with one thing out of 23.
0:02:55 > 0:02:56How can they sit down and negotiate?
0:02:56 > 0:03:00They're being too... APPLAUSE
0:03:03 > 0:03:05To answer the question, I would.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07I'd support them if they went on strike,
0:03:07 > 0:03:09because not just the issue of, obviously,
0:03:09 > 0:03:10the immediate medical question,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13do you really want to be treated by somebody
0:03:13 > 0:03:14who's working a 91-hour week?
0:03:14 > 0:03:17When you try and do the maths of how many hours that is a day,
0:03:17 > 0:03:20it's sort of terrible. There's a bigger question as well, though,
0:03:20 > 0:03:26which is, I believe the idea is to define overtime as after 10pm
0:03:26 > 0:03:28and Sundays.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31I think most of us are worried, in the age of mobile phones
0:03:31 > 0:03:34and the internet, I think we probably all worry
0:03:34 > 0:03:36where does work finish and life begin, don't we?
0:03:36 > 0:03:39When is our home time?
0:03:39 > 0:03:41Doesn't matter about doctors or anything else -
0:03:41 > 0:03:48if the government is ready to define home time as after 10pm and Sundays,
0:03:48 > 0:03:50is think our way of life generally is going to be sunk.
0:03:50 > 0:03:51The French go on strike
0:03:51 > 0:03:55if their lunch hour is cut down to four hours from the normal five,
0:03:55 > 0:03:58so I think if doctors are going to be in the vanguard of saying,
0:03:58 > 0:03:59"No, I'm sorry,
0:03:59 > 0:04:03"if you're not at home by 8pm and on a full weekend, you're on overtime,"
0:04:03 > 0:04:06if they're going to defend that, good luck to them.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09APPLAUSE
0:04:12 > 0:04:16I'm a junior doctor and I've been balloted for strike action today
0:04:16 > 0:04:19and thank you, Victoria, for bringing up something
0:04:19 > 0:04:20that not many people are aware of.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22The government is quite ready to say
0:04:22 > 0:04:24that the BMA won't come back to the table.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27What a lot of people do not realise
0:04:27 > 0:04:29is that the BMA is unable to come back to the table
0:04:29 > 0:04:33until we agree to 22 non-negotiable preconditions.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36In my view, that is not a negotiation.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39APPLAUSE
0:04:41 > 0:04:42Hold on a second.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44Hold on a second, Peter Hitchens, then you can come back.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46Peter Hitchens.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48I don't think doctors should ever go on strike.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50I just don't think it's something they should do.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53It's one of those things where you have to say,
0:04:53 > 0:04:57this is a job which requires you to be available at all times.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00It doesn't mean I don't sympathise with the case,
0:05:00 > 0:05:04it just means I think the strike weapon is not one you can use.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08The other thing which seems to me to be very noticeable
0:05:08 > 0:05:11is that the doctors have completely ceased to trust Mr Hunt
0:05:11 > 0:05:14and there doesn't seem to be any real communication between them.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17I very much hope that the government finds some way
0:05:17 > 0:05:21of reaching a settlement which doesn't involve the doctors' strike,
0:05:21 > 0:05:25for the sake of all the patients who will suffer as a result of that,
0:05:25 > 0:05:26because they will.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28I remember as an industrial reporter,
0:05:28 > 0:05:31any pledge one ever had from any group that the public
0:05:31 > 0:05:34would not suffer from any withdrawal of emergency service
0:05:34 > 0:05:36was never actually fulfilled.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39It always does hurt people, so I think it should be avoided,
0:05:39 > 0:05:42but I think it may have to be avoided by Mr Hunt departing
0:05:42 > 0:05:46and being replaced by somebody better able to negotiate.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48APPLAUSE
0:05:48 > 0:05:50Let's... Yeah, finish your point.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53What are these...? You say you're only able to negotiate one point?
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Yes. Which is that? I can't remember off the top of my head
0:05:56 > 0:05:59which point exactly it was, but there were 22 non-negotiable points.
0:05:59 > 0:06:00What I wanted to say was
0:06:00 > 0:06:04that we have 50,000 junior doctors whistle-blowing.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Jeremy Hunt says he endorses whistle-blowing in the NHS.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10We are standing up and saying this contract is unsafe,
0:06:10 > 0:06:12it's going to be fatal for the NHS
0:06:12 > 0:06:15and he will not listen to these 50,000 whistle-blowers. OK.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17You up there, second row from the back.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21I also agree that, obviously, if they do go on strike,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24it's not a good idea, but I think that it actually shows
0:06:24 > 0:06:26how bad the situation is that these people
0:06:26 > 0:06:28who know how important their jobs are
0:06:28 > 0:06:30think that the only option is to go on strike,
0:06:30 > 0:06:32because they're obviously not being heard
0:06:32 > 0:06:34and issues aren't being sorted out,
0:06:34 > 0:06:36so they believe that striking is the only option
0:06:36 > 0:06:38and that just shows how bad it really is. OK.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40And you, sir, in the second row.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43Is a strike really the best way to get the public onside anyway?
0:06:43 > 0:06:45When the Tube drivers did it,
0:06:45 > 0:06:47it didn't really win me their support
0:06:47 > 0:06:49when I had a three-hour journey home from work.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53You think they would be wrong to strike?
0:06:53 > 0:06:57Not necessarily wrong, but it's not going to win their support from me.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59Chuka Umunna, what do you think?
0:06:59 > 0:07:01I agree with what the lady just said.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05Which lady? The last contributor.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08I don't support strike action, because it's going to disrupt
0:07:08 > 0:07:11the services provided to my constituents,
0:07:11 > 0:07:15but I'm certainly not going to condemn the doctors for doing it
0:07:15 > 0:07:20and, really, this is emblematic of the cack-handed approach
0:07:20 > 0:07:24this government has adopted in relation to our NHS generally.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28Dr Sarah Wollaston... APPLAUSE
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Dr Sarah Wollaston is the Conservative chair
0:07:30 > 0:07:33of the Health Select Committee in the House of Commons.
0:07:33 > 0:07:34She is herself a former GP
0:07:34 > 0:07:37and she has criticised the Health Secretary
0:07:37 > 0:07:39for basically negotiating in the media
0:07:39 > 0:07:43with the doctors, without properly negotiating with them direct.
0:07:43 > 0:07:48Is what he's proposing wrong, apart from the way he's negotiating?
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Peter says his way of negotiating is pretty hopeless,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54but what about the issue of increasing the pay by 11%?
0:07:54 > 0:07:57Well, my biggest concern, and the junior doctor -
0:07:57 > 0:08:00I didn't get your name, I'm sorry - just touched on it,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04listening to the junior doctors I have in my constituency
0:08:04 > 0:08:06and also seeing some of the reports...
0:08:06 > 0:08:08Look, the pay, actually, I don't think is necessarily
0:08:08 > 0:08:12the biggest thing here for many of the junior doctors concerned.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14You don't become a doctor because you want to make money.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17You become a doctor because you want to care for people
0:08:17 > 0:08:19and save lives,
0:08:19 > 0:08:22but the issue here is that one of the things they're going
0:08:22 > 0:08:25to be doing is taking away the financial penalty
0:08:25 > 0:08:29which applies to hospitals where they overwork junior doctors
0:08:29 > 0:08:31and this obviously acts as a deterrent
0:08:31 > 0:08:34and prevents our junior doctors becoming so overworked,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38so exhausted that that impacts on the treatment that we're getting.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40That is a big concern.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43I think the second thing is in a recent survey,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46I think 70% of junior doctors are saying that
0:08:46 > 0:08:48if Jeremy Hunt does what he is threatening to do,
0:08:48 > 0:08:52which is impose what is currently on the table on junior doctors,
0:08:52 > 0:08:5470% of them say they will go abroad.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57I'm also worried because of the changes with have been made
0:08:57 > 0:09:00to the rota-ing for weekends and evenings and how you get paid,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03that you're actually going to find that it's very hard
0:09:03 > 0:09:05to find junior doctors prepared to do that.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07But as I said, this comes on top
0:09:07 > 0:09:09of a wasted ?3 billion reorganisation of the NHS
0:09:09 > 0:09:13we were promised we wouldn't get, rising waiting lists
0:09:13 > 0:09:17and it's being handled in a completely cack-handed manner.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19It's disgraceful. You, sir.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Are we not taking a very short-term view here,
0:09:21 > 0:09:23where we try and save a bit of money
0:09:23 > 0:09:27and then end up driving incredibly skilled, well-trained,
0:09:27 > 0:09:31young professionals that want to dedicate their lives
0:09:31 > 0:09:33to working in the NHS and drive them away
0:09:33 > 0:09:38because the morale within staff that work in the NHS is being depleted
0:09:38 > 0:09:41day after day, not only by politicians that say
0:09:41 > 0:09:44that it's about money, which it completely isn't,
0:09:44 > 0:09:49but also with just being overworked and drained
0:09:49 > 0:09:53and that is a pathway to destroying the NHS.
0:09:53 > 0:09:54Jenny, I'll come to you in a moment,
0:09:54 > 0:09:56but Justine... APPLAUSE
0:09:56 > 0:09:58..can you answer his point?
0:09:58 > 0:10:01Two things - first of all, this isn't actually about money,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04it's not about saving money and, actually,
0:10:04 > 0:10:07junior doctors will be for the first time having a cap
0:10:07 > 0:10:10on the amount of hours they can work
0:10:10 > 0:10:14so that they don't have to work unsafe levels of hours,
0:10:14 > 0:10:16as they do now and, in fact,
0:10:16 > 0:10:18if you go on the NHS Employers website,
0:10:18 > 0:10:21there's actually a pay calculator there where you can go
0:10:21 > 0:10:23and check directly, if you're a junior doctor,
0:10:23 > 0:10:27how this new contract is going to affect you and, actually,
0:10:27 > 0:10:30overwhelmingly, junior doctors will be doing better.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32They certainly won't be doing worse.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35Doing better in terms of the money or the hours they work?
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Well, we'll be capping the hours.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39At the moment, there's around 500 junior doctors
0:10:39 > 0:10:41who routinely end up breaching hours.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43Can you guarantee, Justine, therefore,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46that after the contract comes into effect,
0:10:46 > 0:10:49on the whole, junior doctors will be working less hours
0:10:49 > 0:10:51than at the moment?
0:10:51 > 0:10:54Yes, in the sense that... You're giving a guarantee? ..at the moment,
0:10:54 > 0:10:56at the moment,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59junior doctors in some cases are working over 91 hours a week.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01That's not good for them and it's not good for the NHS.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03Because they're forced to or cos they choose to?
0:11:03 > 0:11:07Well, partly because of the way the system currently works
0:11:07 > 0:11:09and one of the problems around that
0:11:09 > 0:11:11is how the junior doctors' contract worked,
0:11:11 > 0:11:16but I'd like to just come back to the point that the lady over there
0:11:16 > 0:11:18was making, which is I think, actually,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21we do need to get back round the table
0:11:21 > 0:11:24and work our way through this in the end.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26We can have a debate on Question Time,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29but what's really going to fix this is the BMA getting back round
0:11:29 > 0:11:32the table with Jeremy Hunt and I hope that over the coming days,
0:11:32 > 0:11:35that can happen... Do you think that Jeremy Hunt
0:11:35 > 0:11:37can remove this ridiculous gun to the head
0:11:37 > 0:11:41of the 25 non-negotiable points in order for them to negotiate?
0:11:41 > 0:11:43The BMA will get back round the table
0:11:43 > 0:11:45as soon as Jeremy Hunt removes the preconditions
0:11:45 > 0:11:48and we have negotiation. I want to come back to you afterwards
0:11:48 > 0:11:49to see what you made of what Justine said.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51Jenny Jones. This 11% pay rise sounds very good
0:11:51 > 0:11:55until you look at the conditions and then you understand, actually,
0:11:55 > 0:11:57that to get a decent salary,
0:11:57 > 0:12:00junior doctors are probably going to have to work even more hours
0:12:00 > 0:12:02and that is definitely unsafe.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04There's also the fact, of course,
0:12:04 > 0:12:08that junior doctors are probably nearly at the end of their tether,
0:12:08 > 0:12:11they are exhausted, and they could easily decide to go abroad.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15That means all of our investment in their training, in their education,
0:12:15 > 0:12:19has gone and it's wasted, so this, actually, is a very false move.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22We all know the NHS is understaffed,
0:12:22 > 0:12:26underfunded, under-loved, undervalued,
0:12:26 > 0:12:27and it's time that this government,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30instead of trying to break it down piecemeal and sell it off,
0:12:30 > 0:12:32actually understood it's a real, real social asset
0:12:32 > 0:12:34and should be supported.
0:12:34 > 0:12:35OK. APPLAUSE
0:12:40 > 0:12:42And yes, I will support the strike.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44WOULD support the strike, if it happens.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46It was a really eloquent defence of doctors
0:12:46 > 0:12:49and the difficult situation they're in from you, Chuka,
0:12:49 > 0:12:50but at the end of the day,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53how can you as a supposedly Labour MP,
0:12:53 > 0:12:54when doctors are in this position,
0:12:54 > 0:12:58when they're not being negotiated with, when they're out of options,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01not support their right as a body of workers to strike?
0:13:01 > 0:13:03Your party was built on unions.
0:13:03 > 0:13:04I support their right to strike
0:13:04 > 0:13:07and I'm not condemning them for going on strike,
0:13:07 > 0:13:10but, equally, I represent 100,000 people and I want to make sure
0:13:10 > 0:13:13that they can benefit from the services
0:13:13 > 0:13:15that they need to be healthy.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Ultimately, I owe my ultimate duty
0:13:18 > 0:13:20to the constituents that I represent.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23All right, I'll take one more point, then we'll go on to another question.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Women in the second row from the back, there.
0:13:25 > 0:13:30I've got two points - first of all, I work in a hospital setting
0:13:30 > 0:13:31and I work with doctors
0:13:31 > 0:13:33and the other day,
0:13:33 > 0:13:35I was just really struck by one of the doctors
0:13:35 > 0:13:39who was already on shift and she said, "Just another 12 hours to go,"
0:13:39 > 0:13:42and you could see that that was a struggle for her
0:13:42 > 0:13:46and she said the way to cope is caffeine and chocolate
0:13:46 > 0:13:49and like I said, I was just really struck by that.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52The second point I just wanted to make, or ask,
0:13:52 > 0:13:55was if not strike, what's the alternative?
0:13:55 > 0:13:56Talk?
0:13:56 > 0:13:59This is the key thing. I'm afraid this is just a lot of hot air
0:13:59 > 0:14:01and it is true what the chap said - your exact words were,
0:14:01 > 0:14:05"I wouldn't support the strike, but I wouldn't blame them for doing it."
0:14:05 > 0:14:06We just can't have this from politicians -
0:14:06 > 0:14:09"I love everyone, everyone's right, no-one's wrong."
0:14:09 > 0:14:11You're so firmly on the fence... Victoria...
0:14:11 > 0:14:13APPLAUSE
0:14:16 > 0:14:19Victoria, it's very easy for you to say that,
0:14:19 > 0:14:22but I represent people who often will be in need
0:14:22 > 0:14:25of very serious treatment and if I was to support strike action
0:14:25 > 0:14:28which was to hinder the treatment that they were getting,
0:14:28 > 0:14:30that would be the wrong thing to do, in my view.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33It's not easy for me to say that. It is easy for you to say it.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35No, it isn't - I need doctors, I've got a baby,
0:14:35 > 0:14:36I want doctors to be available...
0:14:36 > 0:14:39It will get a clap, but in the end, it's not going to do anything.
0:14:39 > 0:14:40No, it won't get a clap.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43That chap there who said it's quite understandable that striking
0:14:43 > 0:14:44is not the way to get public sympathy -
0:14:44 > 0:14:46it never is, it's always the double bind
0:14:46 > 0:14:48that workers have been trapped in.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50Transport workers, doctors - they want the same thing as we do,
0:14:50 > 0:14:52safety, but how to go about getting it?
0:14:52 > 0:14:54Their means of getting it will alienate people,
0:14:54 > 0:14:57it won't get support, but they're stuck.
0:14:57 > 0:14:58No-one will listen.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01But what is the alternative? There is no alternative.
0:15:01 > 0:15:02They need to strike.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04OK. APPLAUSE
0:15:05 > 0:15:08We'll go on, I want to get through some questions,
0:15:08 > 0:15:10but just before we go to the next one,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12Stoke-on-Trent next week, Belfast the week after that,
0:15:12 > 0:15:14if you want to make a note of it.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16Stoke-on-Trent next week, Belfast the week after it.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19The details are there on the screen and I'll give them at the end,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23but let's have a question from Gary Wilson, please.
0:15:23 > 0:15:24Following the suspected bombing
0:15:24 > 0:15:27of a Russian aeroplane in Egypt this week,
0:15:27 > 0:15:29is it time to take full military action against IS?
0:15:29 > 0:15:32Peter Hitchens. No.
0:15:32 > 0:15:35First of all, it's suspected and not proven
0:15:35 > 0:15:38and we shouldn't rush to do things of this kind.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41Secondly, the idea that taking military action
0:15:41 > 0:15:45against Islamic State is going to reduce the terrorist risk
0:15:45 > 0:15:47is an absurdity.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50The military action which this country
0:15:50 > 0:15:53and the United States in particular have taken in the Middle East
0:15:53 > 0:15:57and the other interventions which we've undertaken in the Arab world
0:15:57 > 0:16:01over the past ten or 15 years and indeed in Afghanistan
0:16:01 > 0:16:03have increased the risk to us repeatedly.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05We have no idea what we're doing in these places.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07We destroyed the stability of Iraq
0:16:07 > 0:16:10and replaced it with the chaos out of which IS grew.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13We've destabilised Syria and turned millions
0:16:13 > 0:16:17of reasonably contented people into corpses and refugees,
0:16:17 > 0:16:20we wrecked Libya and turned that into a failed state
0:16:20 > 0:16:22with our brilliant intervention there.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27What is it that makes us think, still, after all these stupid,
0:16:27 > 0:16:31unforgiveable failures of incompetence and ignorance,
0:16:31 > 0:16:33that we are going by another military intervention
0:16:33 > 0:16:35suddenly to make it all right?
0:16:35 > 0:16:38It really is time that as a country we realise that we have...
0:16:38 > 0:16:40APPLAUSE
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Well, Justine Greening, your Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54said today it was morally indefensible Britain was relying
0:16:54 > 0:16:57on other countries to bomb Islamic State targets.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59The French didn't agonise over it, he said,
0:16:59 > 0:17:02but it's morally indefensible for us just to stand back.
0:17:02 > 0:17:06What's your view? First of all, Isil is a threat to the UK.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10We've seen that and we need to take steps to deal with it.
0:17:10 > 0:17:11At the moment,
0:17:11 > 0:17:15we're part of the coalition action against Isil in Iraq,
0:17:15 > 0:17:17but, of course, Isil's also in Syria
0:17:17 > 0:17:21and we're not able to be part of taking action against them,
0:17:21 > 0:17:24so we've got half a strategy, which is why what we want to do
0:17:24 > 0:17:28is build a consensus so that we can win a vote in Parliament
0:17:28 > 0:17:31to actually have a proper strategy that means we can also play our role
0:17:31 > 0:17:35in trying to tackle Isil in Syria and in the meantime,
0:17:35 > 0:17:39the other thing we need to see is for the Russians to actually be part
0:17:39 > 0:17:41of that coalition tackling Isil,
0:17:41 > 0:17:44rather than doing what they're doing at the moment,
0:17:44 > 0:17:46which is actually bombing the Free Syrian Army
0:17:46 > 0:17:48and the Syrian moderate opposition
0:17:48 > 0:17:50is going to be part of Syria's future,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52so they shouldn't be taking action against them.
0:17:52 > 0:17:53Can I just challenge that?
0:17:53 > 0:17:55This constant chorus from the government
0:17:55 > 0:17:57about these "moderates" in Syria.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01The "moderates" in Syria are exactly the same people who they urge us
0:18:01 > 0:18:04to be on guard against in schools and everywhere else in Britain.
0:18:04 > 0:18:09They're not moderates - they're utterly and completely dedicated
0:18:09 > 0:18:13to the extremist Islamic cause
0:18:13 > 0:18:15and we propose to back them, because, actually,
0:18:15 > 0:18:17British foreign policy is not made in London any more.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19It's made in Saudi Arabia
0:18:19 > 0:18:21and our... APPLAUSE
0:18:22 > 0:18:25Our attitude towards all these things is governed
0:18:25 > 0:18:28by our desire to please Saudi Arabia and no other sense at all.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30Justine, just reply to that,
0:18:30 > 0:18:33then I'll come to you in the second row. Thank you.
0:18:33 > 0:18:34I actually met the leader
0:18:34 > 0:18:38of the Syrian moderate opposition in Parliament yesterday.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41He wasn't the kind of person that you've just talked about.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45These are people who are standing up against a brutal Assad regime
0:18:45 > 0:18:49that's barrel bombing ordinary civilians in Syria.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52They talked to me about how there are half a million Syrians now
0:18:52 > 0:18:56who are totally cut off from any help that can be provided to them
0:18:56 > 0:19:00and they need the rest of the world to provide assistance,
0:19:00 > 0:19:04and also to help them tackle Isil too, so that in the end of this,
0:19:04 > 0:19:06when we do reach a political settlement,
0:19:06 > 0:19:10there's a Syria there for them to build a future again in.
0:19:10 > 0:19:11How can you... Hang on.
0:19:11 > 0:19:12No, I'm sorry,
0:19:12 > 0:19:16how can you claim to be against the supposed tyranny of Assad
0:19:16 > 0:19:21when this week, your Prime Minister has welcomed the leader of Egypt,
0:19:21 > 0:19:26who recently killed hundreds of his own people and runs a regime
0:19:26 > 0:19:30if not as repressive as Assad, similarly repressive?
0:19:30 > 0:19:33How can you claim to be principled in this matter?
0:19:33 > 0:19:34You, sir. You're not.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37Let me just say I'm fed up with all these wars in these countries.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40They need to come to an end. Let me say to you, Chuka,
0:19:40 > 0:19:43that Tony Blair was responsible for the Iraq War,
0:19:43 > 0:19:45he needs to be in jail.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49Let me say this - Jenny Jones, your own leader told this nation,
0:19:49 > 0:19:52she said, "Oh, if you're part of Isis,
0:19:52 > 0:19:54"you're not a risk to this country."
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Let me say this - they are a risk to this country
0:19:57 > 0:19:59and if they go to another country,
0:19:59 > 0:20:02they should never be allowed back in this country again.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04It's immoral that they are. All right.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07Chuka Umunna, perhaps you'd start on that and then, Jenny Jones,
0:20:07 > 0:20:09we'll come to you.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13Well, I mean, I didn't support the action in Iraq that happened
0:20:13 > 0:20:16under the last Labour government - I was opposed to it.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20But I think, taking a step back, there are instances
0:20:20 > 0:20:23when the international community should have intervened
0:20:23 > 0:20:26and acted but sat on its hands, like in Bosnia-Herzegovina
0:20:26 > 0:20:30and also Rwanda, where I think, looking back with hindsight,
0:20:30 > 0:20:33we would have preferred that the international community acted.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37So I think to take a view that all military intervention
0:20:37 > 0:20:41and action is necessarily a negative thing and cannot save lives
0:20:41 > 0:20:45and cannot make a positive impact is wrong.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47I don't have anything in principle...
0:20:47 > 0:20:51I don't have any principal objection to military intervention,
0:20:51 > 0:20:52if the questioner was meaning
0:20:52 > 0:20:55whether or not there should be a military intervention in Syria
0:20:55 > 0:21:00going beyond Iraq, but I think the key question is whether it can
0:21:00 > 0:21:03save lives and whether it can make a positive difference, and for me...
0:21:03 > 0:21:05The things I'm most concerned about -
0:21:05 > 0:21:08what is the legal basis for the intervention?
0:21:08 > 0:21:11I think on the whole you would want a UN resolution.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13Is there support amongst the international
0:21:13 > 0:21:15community for intervention?
0:21:15 > 0:21:18Particularly the powers in that area - Turkey, Qatar,
0:21:18 > 0:21:20others in the region.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23What are the military objectives and are they achievable?
0:21:23 > 0:21:26What is - importantly, learning the lessons from Iraq -
0:21:26 > 0:21:29the plan for after?
0:21:29 > 0:21:32And once we have been given the information to make
0:21:32 > 0:21:35a judgment on that, then you can judge whether military
0:21:35 > 0:21:39intervention on the part of the UK would actually make a difference.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41Justine talks about what the government would like to do,
0:21:41 > 0:21:43what it wouldn't like to do.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45It hasn't actually put a proposal to the House of Commons
0:21:45 > 0:21:48to consider yet. I think it's at that point that we can actually make
0:21:48 > 0:21:49a judgment as to what to do.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52But floating ideas and trying to put feelers out in the media
0:21:52 > 0:21:54or talking to Members of Parliament...
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Formally put forward some proposals and then we can consider
0:21:57 > 0:22:00whether it's the right thing - not just in our national security
0:22:00 > 0:22:03interest - but whether actually it can make a positive difference.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05That's a proper way to do it, in my view.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09Jenny Jones. Bombing anywhere... What's your answer for his point?
0:22:09 > 0:22:11..is never an answer.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15The fact is, the US has been bombing Syria for 14 months
0:22:15 > 0:22:18and the situation has not improved, and if anything,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21it has got much, much worse. I want to pick up on something Peter said.
0:22:21 > 0:22:26He said that we destabilised the Middle East,
0:22:26 > 0:22:29and the big problem I have at the moment is we are not taking
0:22:29 > 0:22:31responsibility for what we have done.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34I was in Calais last Friday and met some of the 6,000 refugees,
0:22:34 > 0:22:37many of them from Syria, but all from warzones.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39These are people who don't want to be there -
0:22:39 > 0:22:41they don't even really want to be in Britain.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44What they want to be is back home, safe.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48They want to be free from threats of beheading and crucifixion
0:22:48 > 0:22:51and rape, and the fact is they are there
0:22:51 > 0:22:55because we have been bombing at various times...
0:22:55 > 0:22:59What action, if any, would you think we or other countries should take?
0:22:59 > 0:23:01I think Justine was absolutely right -
0:23:01 > 0:23:04the next step is that all the countries involved have to
0:23:04 > 0:23:06sit down and find some sort of diplomatic means.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09They have to start talking. They've got to stop bombing.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11The idea that the US
0:23:11 > 0:23:15and Russia are now bombing the same country is horrendous -
0:23:15 > 0:23:19there could easily be clashes - so we have to sit down.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23I am not a patient person and, you know, it's difficult for me
0:23:23 > 0:23:25to say we have to sit down and talk but quite honestly,
0:23:25 > 0:23:27bombing has not worked.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30APPLAUSE
0:23:33 > 0:23:37Isn't it worth noting that Isis was able to grow because of our
0:23:37 > 0:23:40intervention and because of our destabilising of the region?
0:23:40 > 0:23:43Surely if we intervene again this is going to give rise to
0:23:43 > 0:23:45something even worse. And the woman behind you.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47APPLAUSE
0:23:47 > 0:23:51I think what has filled the nation and people around the world is
0:23:51 > 0:23:54the unilateral...or ballot for interventions of these countries
0:23:54 > 0:23:58and not working as a unit like they did with Nazis.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01They were able to conquer Nazis when they came together as a body,
0:24:01 > 0:24:04but everyone is going into things...
0:24:04 > 0:24:05Different countries unilaterally -
0:24:05 > 0:24:10Britain went into Iraq, America went into Iraq, Afghanistan.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12Individual countries would never be able to conquer this, so unless
0:24:12 > 0:24:16they come together as a body, they are going to create more problems.
0:24:16 > 0:24:17And you.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19I want to say that Isil is a new phenomenon,
0:24:19 > 0:24:22not only because the Iraqi intervention,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25the Western intervention. But now we have Isil in Libya,
0:24:25 > 0:24:28we have Isil in Egypt where previously we didn't have any,
0:24:28 > 0:24:31and that's because the West is not supporting the transition
0:24:31 > 0:24:33to democracy in the Middle East.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36The Gulf countries and the West have... As Peter said,
0:24:36 > 0:24:40Sisi was here this week and this man has killed thousands of people
0:24:40 > 0:24:43and he has been received with great honours in the UK.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45Can you imagine that...?
0:24:45 > 0:24:48You know, there's a risk of a bomb on a plane on the Russian jet.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52Actually having...such a security breach having happened,
0:24:52 > 0:24:54and he's presenting himself as the man of stability.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57He's the one who's going to beat Isil in Libya,
0:24:57 > 0:24:59and I think that that is absolutely...
0:24:59 > 0:25:01It's not only military.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04You don't have to bomb people in the Middle East to stop Isil,
0:25:04 > 0:25:08you've got to stop people turning to Isil as a solution.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11APPLAUSE
0:25:14 > 0:25:16We want the ballot box back
0:25:16 > 0:25:19and because the UK is welcoming a man who
0:25:19 > 0:25:23threw our votes into the rubbish bin in Egypt,
0:25:23 > 0:25:26then this is a very bad sign for the region
0:25:26 > 0:25:29and I think something should... The opposite should have been done.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31He should never have been welcomed here.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34APPLAUSE
0:25:34 > 0:25:39I mean, I don't have a sophisticated response to this. I think it's...
0:25:39 > 0:25:42People find themselves in a terrible position. On the one hand...
0:25:42 > 0:25:45The stakes seem so high - is it, as you say, like sitting back,
0:25:45 > 0:25:47whether it's Bosnia-Herzegovina,
0:25:47 > 0:25:49whether it's Germany invading Czechoslovakia...?
0:25:49 > 0:25:51Is it sitting back and not helping when we could help
0:25:51 > 0:25:53and letting people die? That's awful.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57Or is it bombing and causing mass death and more instability?
0:25:57 > 0:26:00That's awful. And I sort of...
0:26:00 > 0:26:04I feel like 20 years ago we rather innocently imagined that the people
0:26:04 > 0:26:07that took the decisions knew something we didn't
0:26:07 > 0:26:09and were going to do something competent.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12And what happened with Iraq was...
0:26:12 > 0:26:15Even if they had a secret evil agenda to take
0:26:15 > 0:26:19control of the region, they failed even in that.
0:26:19 > 0:26:23And it was so incompetent that I think it's terribly frightening
0:26:23 > 0:26:26to think the same sort of people are making the same
0:26:26 > 0:26:28sort of decisions again.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30And either way, a terrible mistake can be made,
0:26:30 > 0:26:32and this is not a helpful binary answer to the question,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35but I hope it's a reasonable summary of how most people feel.
0:26:35 > 0:26:40APPLAUSE
0:26:40 > 0:26:43I think the problem with Isil as a whole is the fact that
0:26:43 > 0:26:44we don't actually understand it.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47We need to, you know, to get more intelligence
0:26:47 > 0:26:50and I think the only way that will be achieved is through
0:26:50 > 0:26:52bilateral cooperation, if that's between ourselves
0:26:52 > 0:26:55and the US or people like Saudi Arabia.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58I think the best thing to do is attack this at its roots
0:26:58 > 0:27:01and then go from there, as opposed to jumping in with pre-emptive
0:27:01 > 0:27:04strikes which are going to ultimately cost millions of lives.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06One thing I would like to say, sorry,
0:27:06 > 0:27:08is be careful of the idea we need more intelligence.
0:27:08 > 0:27:12One thing I do know - beware the politicians.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15It's quite convenient for the government that the possibility
0:27:15 > 0:27:18that IS is behind this airstrike comes in the very week
0:27:18 > 0:27:20they're asking for greater powers of surveillance.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23They want to read more of our e-mails and phone calls.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27Beware the search for more intelligence because there's
0:27:27 > 0:27:30other factors at stake that we may not quite understand.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32You, sir, up there, and then we'll go onto another one.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35I think Peter Hitchens is talking absolute nonsense in terms of Syria.
0:27:35 > 0:27:38By not intervening we likely turned it into a bloody mess
0:27:38 > 0:27:41and people have turned to extremism because of that.
0:27:41 > 0:27:42Let him finish the point.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45If you look at the facts, you will clearly see that Isis grew
0:27:45 > 0:27:47because of the chaos that enveloped Syria.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49That's why we're dealing with it now.
0:27:49 > 0:27:51The chaos that enveloped Syria was caused
0:27:51 > 0:27:53by external destabilisation...
0:27:53 > 0:27:55It was caused by the Assad regime.
0:27:55 > 0:28:00..which came out of the Gulf and was supported by the United States,
0:28:00 > 0:28:04by Britain and by France in this curious belief that
0:28:04 > 0:28:08the Syrian regime - horrible though it undoubtedly is -
0:28:08 > 0:28:13was in some way, as we claim, worse than anyone else in the Middle East.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16In fact, that's simply not true. Barrel bombs, we talked about.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19Nouri al-Maliki, our friend in Iraq, has used barrel bombs in Fallujah.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21There's hardly a Middle Eastern state...
0:28:21 > 0:28:24Bahrain, in which we've just opened a naval base, uses torture
0:28:24 > 0:28:26and hideous repression against its people
0:28:26 > 0:28:28and we have no principled objection to that.
0:28:28 > 0:28:32The idea that our objection to Syria is its tyranny is simply
0:28:32 > 0:28:34not true, and the other thing about this is
0:28:34 > 0:28:38the intransigence of the Syrian opposition, backed by us
0:28:38 > 0:28:40and the United States and by the Gulf,
0:28:40 > 0:28:45refusing to go to any negotiations in which Assad did not go,
0:28:45 > 0:28:50has prevented any kind of attempted diplomatic solution now for years
0:28:50 > 0:28:53and all the people who have been driven from their homes
0:28:53 > 0:28:58and killed and maimed during that time can turn to those who said,
0:28:58 > 0:29:00"We will not negotiate unless Assad goes,"
0:29:00 > 0:29:02and say, "Why couldn't you make a compromise?
0:29:02 > 0:29:06"Were our lives and our homes so unimportant to you by comparison
0:29:06 > 0:29:09"to that that you were prepared to demand that forever?"
0:29:09 > 0:29:14That's what has been going on. Jenny Jones, briefly. Intransigence.
0:29:14 > 0:29:15Jenny Jones, very briefly.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18I've worked and visited Syria many, many times
0:29:18 > 0:29:22and the fact is that it was an incredibly stable country.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24Considering it was a vile dictatorship and so on,
0:29:24 > 0:29:27it was actually a very safe, stable country.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30People were repressed, but actually they got on with their lives,
0:29:30 > 0:29:33there was a lot of employment, food was cheap -
0:29:33 > 0:29:36it was a good place to live, and believe me,
0:29:36 > 0:29:40our bombing has made it one of the worst places on Earth to live.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43APPLAUSE
0:29:43 > 0:29:46Sean Wigan, please, your question. Sean Wigan.
0:29:46 > 0:29:50How do we house the high number of immigrants arriving, considering
0:29:50 > 0:29:53the shortage of council houses available for existing UK residents?
0:29:53 > 0:29:56We have a lot of questions about housing here in Tottenham tonight.
0:29:56 > 0:29:59How do we house the high number of immigrants arriving,
0:29:59 > 0:30:03considering the shortage of council houses available to UK residents?
0:30:03 > 0:30:05Chuka Umunna.
0:30:05 > 0:30:10Well, I think two things. First of all, it's not just homes for rent.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13It's obviously homes that people want to buy.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15But ultimately, we've got to build more homes
0:30:15 > 0:30:18if we're to deal with both the situation
0:30:18 > 0:30:21of an inflated housing market, but also high rents.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24One of the problems we've got in the area that I represent,
0:30:24 > 0:30:26particularly in an urban centre like London,
0:30:26 > 0:30:29I represent one of the constituencies in Lambeth,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32is that we simply do not have enough space to build more homes.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35And one of the challenges that our council is facing,
0:30:35 > 0:30:37it wants to increase the number of homes,
0:30:37 > 0:30:39but the only place it can actually build them
0:30:39 > 0:30:41is on existing council estates.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43But ultimately, we've got to invest in that.
0:30:43 > 0:30:46We've also got to sort out the planning rules.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48But in the rented sector,
0:30:48 > 0:30:53as we see the private rented market increase as a share of the tenure
0:30:53 > 0:30:56that we have here in London,
0:30:56 > 0:30:58we've got a Wild West situation
0:30:58 > 0:31:03where, frankly, people are being ripped off by many landlords,
0:31:03 > 0:31:06are facing exorbitant rent increases
0:31:06 > 0:31:09and there isn't proper regulation in the market.
0:31:09 > 0:31:11Which is why one of the things we were proposing to do
0:31:11 > 0:31:13in the lead into the general election
0:31:13 > 0:31:15was to cap the amount of rent increases that people are facing,
0:31:15 > 0:31:19but also stop these agents charging these extortionate fees
0:31:19 > 0:31:21every time you're moving home.
0:31:21 > 0:31:23So far, we've seen no action from the government
0:31:23 > 0:31:25to do anything about this.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28When, actually, I see many, you know, many constituents
0:31:28 > 0:31:31who, for them, never mind they're not being paid enough in their work,
0:31:31 > 0:31:34but housing costs are taking up most of their income.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37But is your question about immigration as well as about housing?
0:31:37 > 0:31:42No, it's more in regards to housing, more than immigration.
0:31:42 > 0:31:43Probably more in line.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46Because I work for the criminal justice system
0:31:46 > 0:31:47in a probation hostel
0:31:47 > 0:31:49and, over a number of years,
0:31:49 > 0:31:54it's quite difficult for residents moving on to obtain housing.
0:31:54 > 0:31:56And I'm just wondering,
0:31:56 > 0:31:59if it's so difficult for the existing UK residents
0:31:59 > 0:32:01to get council properties,
0:32:01 > 0:32:04how are we then housing the immigrants coming over?
0:32:04 > 0:32:05OK, you in the front row?
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Yeah, I actually used to live in rented accommodation
0:32:08 > 0:32:09in London for a few years
0:32:09 > 0:32:11and I've just moved to the East Village in Stratford,
0:32:11 > 0:32:13which is the old Olympic accommodation.
0:32:13 > 0:32:15Now, that's owned by a housing association.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19It's got capped rent on inflation and the difference I saw there,
0:32:19 > 0:32:21which will be negligible, 1.5% increases,
0:32:21 > 0:32:24against a 10% increase in my last place in Clapham
0:32:24 > 0:32:29with no, any improvements made at all, that's got to be the solution.
0:32:29 > 0:32:30It's the only solution.
0:32:30 > 0:32:33OK. And you? I work as a nurse in Islington
0:32:33 > 0:32:35and the amount of patients that we have to see
0:32:35 > 0:32:38that need housing sorted out through the council
0:32:38 > 0:32:40and the amount of time that takes up.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44So I spend probably 30% of my week in the council,
0:32:44 > 0:32:46trying to sort out housing.
0:32:46 > 0:32:50But then, you know, it affects their mental health problems, as well.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53And it's just the whole system needs to be sorted out.
0:32:53 > 0:32:55It does. And one of the problems is,
0:32:55 > 0:32:58we should be building around 50,000 new homes,
0:32:58 > 0:33:01at least 50,000 new homes a year here in London.
0:33:01 > 0:33:03And yet, under the current mayor,
0:33:03 > 0:33:07we've seen a build of around 20,000 new homes.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10And unless you build more, you invest more
0:33:10 > 0:33:12and also address some of the planning constraints,
0:33:12 > 0:33:15we are not going to be able to get a grip on this. All right, Victoria?
0:33:15 > 0:33:16It's a knock-on effect.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18Because then what happens is, like,
0:33:18 > 0:33:20we know how strained the NHS is and, as a nurse,
0:33:20 > 0:33:22I'm having to spend my week in the council
0:33:22 > 0:33:24because there's problems with the council.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27So less patients get seen by me, there's less treatment being done,
0:33:27 > 0:33:30because I'm spending 30% of my week in the council.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32So it's a knock-on effect.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34OK, you, sir, up there on the right?
0:33:35 > 0:33:38I've got to be honest with you, spare us your crocodile tears.
0:33:38 > 0:33:40Because it was you, alongside the Tories,
0:33:40 > 0:33:43that sold off those council houses,
0:33:43 > 0:33:45that drove those people
0:33:45 > 0:33:48back into the hands of those unethical landlords
0:33:48 > 0:33:50that, you know, you seem to be crying for.
0:33:50 > 0:33:54You know, if it wasn't for you carrying out Tory policies
0:33:54 > 0:33:57that drove those people into the hands of those landlords,
0:33:57 > 0:33:59we wouldn't have this crisis right now.
0:33:59 > 0:34:02I'm sorry, that's garbage, rubbish. That's not true.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05So I think, for me, it's really important
0:34:05 > 0:34:07that young people growing up in London
0:34:07 > 0:34:10do feel like they've got the chance to get on the property ladder
0:34:10 > 0:34:11and that means doing three...
0:34:11 > 0:34:13SOME OF THE AUDIENCE OBJECTS
0:34:13 > 0:34:15It means doing...
0:34:15 > 0:34:19It means doing three things. One is getting on with building more homes.
0:34:19 > 0:34:20And actually, over the last few years,
0:34:20 > 0:34:22we have seen more council homes built.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25We've have seen more affordable homes built.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27No, no, no, I'm sorry.
0:34:27 > 0:34:29The idea of young people...
0:34:29 > 0:34:31If I can just finish?
0:34:31 > 0:34:33So part of this is building more homes,
0:34:33 > 0:34:38including starter homes, which will be at 80% of the market value.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41Alongside that, then, it's helping young people
0:34:41 > 0:34:43be able to get the deposit that they need
0:34:43 > 0:34:45to be able to buy those homes, as well.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48Which is where Help to Buy is making a big difference
0:34:48 > 0:34:52in reducing the amount of deposits that people need.
0:34:52 > 0:34:53And the last thing, though,
0:34:53 > 0:34:56is around many of the housing estates
0:34:56 > 0:34:58that are all in our local communities,
0:34:58 > 0:35:00which I think, over the coming years,
0:35:00 > 0:35:03have a real chance to be regenerated,
0:35:03 > 0:35:06providing better and new housing stock for existing residents.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09But also, giving us the chance to create more homes
0:35:09 > 0:35:13and more housing for new people growing up in communities...
0:35:13 > 0:35:15But you say that. Why under the coalition...
0:35:15 > 0:35:17But housebuilding is at its lowest,
0:35:17 > 0:35:20according to the government's own figures, since the 1920s.
0:35:20 > 0:35:21How come?
0:35:21 > 0:35:22We've built 600,000...
0:35:22 > 0:35:26However many you've built, its lower than it was in 1920.
0:35:26 > 0:35:27The lowest since 1920.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31We've built 600,000 new homes since 2010.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34And, actually, housing starts in the past 12 months...
0:35:34 > 0:35:36How many a year is that? Since 2010?
0:35:36 > 0:35:39Housing starts in the past 12 months...
0:35:39 > 0:35:41Sorry, housing planning that's been given permission
0:35:41 > 0:35:46in the last 12 months is over 250,000 units.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48So there are homes being built.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50But I think we're dealing with
0:35:50 > 0:35:53quite a long-term generational lack of homes that have been built,
0:35:53 > 0:35:55especially in London.
0:35:55 > 0:35:57And it's taking time to get that turned around.
0:35:57 > 0:35:58But is being turned around,
0:35:58 > 0:36:00which is why more affordable homes are being built,
0:36:00 > 0:36:03more council homes are being built... OK.
0:36:03 > 0:36:04And, actually, we are seeing people
0:36:04 > 0:36:06being able to get into the housing market.
0:36:06 > 0:36:10The person up there in the second row from the back. You in blue?
0:36:10 > 0:36:11Hi. I used to live in Lambeth,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13actually opposite your surgery, Chuka.
0:36:13 > 0:36:15I'm having to move out of London.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17I earn a decent wage, I'm a Londoner,
0:36:17 > 0:36:18but I can't afford the rent.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21And you say there's no room to build more houses.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23But if you get the bus around Lambeth/Wandsworth,
0:36:23 > 0:36:26there's plenty of room to build luxury apartments, luxury flats.
0:36:26 > 0:36:28I can't afford them.
0:36:28 > 0:36:29APPLAUSE
0:36:29 > 0:36:31You, sir?
0:36:34 > 0:36:36Yes?
0:36:36 > 0:36:39Yeah, you're saying, you're quoting figures, 50,000 targets,
0:36:39 > 0:36:4120,000 houses being built.
0:36:41 > 0:36:42But like what was just said,
0:36:42 > 0:36:45what percentage of those houses are affordable?
0:36:45 > 0:36:46All these figures...
0:36:46 > 0:36:4920,000, are they all affordable housing
0:36:49 > 0:36:51or a percentage of that is luxury housing?
0:36:51 > 0:36:53And the man next to you?
0:36:53 > 0:36:56Chuka can talk about the number of houses being built,
0:36:56 > 0:37:00but when Labour were in power, they only built 13,000 houses.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02There were more houses built in the last year
0:37:02 > 0:37:05when Margaret Thatcher was in power, council houses.
0:37:05 > 0:37:07That's right.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10I'm sorry, that is not a figure I recognise. Before the crash...
0:37:10 > 0:37:12You might not recognise it, but it's true, though.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14Before the crash,
0:37:14 > 0:37:18we were building around 240,000 new homes a year across the UK.
0:37:18 > 0:37:19Not council houses.
0:37:19 > 0:37:24Now, in terms of the council houses, to pick up on my former constituent.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27I'm sorry to be losing you. Yeah.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33We're sorry to have lost you.
0:37:33 > 0:37:34But, of course, the problem is,
0:37:34 > 0:37:36going to your point about the space issue,
0:37:36 > 0:37:38it's space that Lambeth actually owns.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41They simply don't have the money,
0:37:41 > 0:37:43given the cuts they've sustained, 50% of their budget going,
0:37:43 > 0:37:46to buy up all the private land that you're talking about.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48So that leaves them with their land to build on
0:37:48 > 0:37:49and they don't have enough of it.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52Do you think we should cut rents, though, like they do in Berlin?
0:37:52 > 0:37:56I'm very sympathetic to exercising that control on rent,
0:37:56 > 0:37:59which is why, you know, having a cap on the increase
0:37:59 > 0:38:02that people are subject to by their landlords every year
0:38:02 > 0:38:03was something that I was elected on.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05That was a manifesto that I was elected on.
0:38:05 > 0:38:08Are you in favour of controlled rents? I'm very sympathetic to it.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11Sympathetic doesn't mean... Yes, yes! You are in favour? Yes, I am.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14You are in favour? You'd vote for it? I would vote for capping rents.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16OK, Corbyn would be with you on that one.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18I think so. Yeah.
0:38:18 > 0:38:19Victoria?
0:38:19 > 0:38:22First of all, it needs to be said that the idea
0:38:22 > 0:38:24that any young person, really,
0:38:24 > 0:38:26unless they're the child of a Russian oligarch,
0:38:26 > 0:38:28could live in London any more is preposterous.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30APPLAUSE
0:38:32 > 0:38:35It is an absolute pipedream.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38You know, here in Tottenham, which is not central London,
0:38:38 > 0:38:40in fact it's one of poorest places in Europe,
0:38:40 > 0:38:43in Tottenham a one-bedroom flat can cost you ?400,000.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45It's a stupid amount of money.
0:38:45 > 0:38:4780% of it is a stupid amount of money.
0:38:47 > 0:38:48No-one can afford to live here
0:38:48 > 0:38:51and of course they could build more houses.
0:38:51 > 0:38:53I don't know how many council houses were built in London
0:38:53 > 0:38:55in the last year, probably about 40.
0:38:55 > 0:38:56I mean, a ridiculous amount.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59There needs to be a proper revolution.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01And I know you would say it's easy for me to say
0:39:01 > 0:39:04because I'm not a politician, but I'm not, and it is, so I will.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06I think what has to happen is all of the young people
0:39:06 > 0:39:08and all of the workforce just have to leave London.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11They've just got to make themselves work somewhere else.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13The Government has to find something to offer people
0:39:13 > 0:39:16outside London to regenerate other parts of the country.
0:39:16 > 0:39:17And they'll leave
0:39:17 > 0:39:19and all these super-wealthy people with their iceberg houses
0:39:19 > 0:39:22will be left with no nurses and no policeman and no firemen
0:39:22 > 0:39:24and no-one to clean their houses
0:39:24 > 0:39:25and no-one to deliver the mail to the houses.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27APPLAUSE
0:39:27 > 0:39:30The last thing I want to say, which is also very important,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33is be very careful, though, about talking about immigration.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36It's not about immigration. This isn't a population problem.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39It's only very recently that London has returned
0:39:39 > 0:39:41to the population level of 1945.
0:39:41 > 0:39:44It's not the number of people, it's the cost of the houses
0:39:44 > 0:39:45and the type that are being built.
0:39:45 > 0:39:47All right. You, sir, at the front?
0:39:47 > 0:39:50Yes? I actually work in the London property market
0:39:50 > 0:39:52and I've got two quick points to make.
0:39:52 > 0:39:55I mean, the Help to Buy scheme is a complete failure.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58As, in order to qualify to buy one of these properties,
0:39:58 > 0:40:01you need to be on ?70,000, ?80,000, ?90,000 at least.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04So that's one point. The second point, I've seen rents go up
0:40:04 > 0:40:08by at least 15 to 20% in the last two years, and wages are not coming
0:40:08 > 0:40:10up to that level.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12And that simply is a supply-and-demand issue.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15You talk about building these houses, but where are they?
0:40:15 > 0:40:18Where are they being built? Jenny Jones.
0:40:18 > 0:40:19SCATTERED APPLAUSE
0:40:19 > 0:40:23I've got so much to say on this that I'm going to trip over myself.
0:40:23 > 0:40:27But, basically, what's happening here in London, the driving out
0:40:27 > 0:40:28of people, it's not just
0:40:28 > 0:40:30the cleaners and the baristas
0:40:30 > 0:40:31and people like that who are on
0:40:31 > 0:40:33low pay who are getting driven out,
0:40:33 > 0:40:35it's academics, it's junior doctors,
0:40:35 > 0:40:39it's all the sort of people that we need to keep our city going.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42And there are all sorts of things we could do but we in general
0:40:42 > 0:40:44are choosing not to do.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48I've been watching Boris Johnson over the past seven and a half years
0:40:48 > 0:40:50fairly up close and personal,
0:40:50 > 0:40:53and he, when he came in, redefined affordable housing.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56It's all very well talking about building affordable housing.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59We all agree on that. But actually, affordable has to be
0:40:59 > 0:41:00affordable for everybody.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04It's not affordable if you earn ?80,000 and you can't buy it
0:41:04 > 0:41:07if you earn any less. That's not affordable.
0:41:07 > 0:41:08He redefined "affordable".
0:41:08 > 0:41:11We should think about rent caps, of course we should.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14We've tried things like landlord registers,
0:41:14 > 0:41:17because of course a lot of people, if you're in rented accommodation
0:41:17 > 0:41:20and you complain about your boiler, you get kicked out
0:41:20 > 0:41:24because it's such a bad market for people who are trying to rent.
0:41:24 > 0:41:28We should also be bringing empty properties back into use.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30There's something called the Land Value Tax,
0:41:30 > 0:41:33which is too complicated to go into, but that basically penalises you
0:41:33 > 0:41:36for leaving a building empty for any length of time.
0:41:36 > 0:41:40There's also, for example, social housing.
0:41:40 > 0:41:42We should be building social housing.
0:41:42 > 0:41:48I grew up in a council house in Brighton just after the war.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51It was brilliant. My parents were on a really low income,
0:41:51 > 0:41:53a hospital chef and a dinner lady.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56Nowadays, they would never have access to that sort of...
0:41:56 > 0:41:59Well, it's harder and harder for people like that,
0:41:59 > 0:42:01families like that, to have access to social housing.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04So many councils are building... Well, they're starting to build
0:42:04 > 0:42:07social housing, but what they're doing, of course,
0:42:07 > 0:42:09is they're selling off some of the flats
0:42:09 > 0:42:14to offshore investors and people who see it as an investment.
0:42:14 > 0:42:18Housing is for people who live in the city.
0:42:18 > 0:42:20It is not something to make huge amounts of money out of.
0:42:20 > 0:42:22All right. Thank you. OK. Thank you. APPLAUSE
0:42:23 > 0:42:25Peter Hitchens.
0:42:26 > 0:42:28Yeah, first of all, it's quite plain that our housing policy
0:42:28 > 0:42:31in this country has been a catastrophe for many years,
0:42:31 > 0:42:33and one of the things which has made it so
0:42:33 > 0:42:36was the sale of council houses, which everybody says was wonderful,
0:42:36 > 0:42:39which I think we must recognise was a disaster.
0:42:39 > 0:42:40It destroyed a huge amount
0:42:40 > 0:42:42of rented housing stock,
0:42:42 > 0:42:43incredibly valuable to people
0:42:43 > 0:42:44who had to work
0:42:44 > 0:42:46and needed to move to work,
0:42:46 > 0:42:48and replaced it with the absolute
0:42:48 > 0:42:50catastrophe of housing benefit,
0:42:50 > 0:42:53which currently costs more than the Royal Air Force to maintain
0:42:53 > 0:42:57and is an immensely expensive way of trying to house people.
0:42:57 > 0:43:00We've also repeatedly had governments which have sought
0:43:00 > 0:43:03to cover up their failure to create a productive economy
0:43:03 > 0:43:08by pumping up housing bubbles to try and sustain the economic figures
0:43:08 > 0:43:10and make themselves look good, during which time
0:43:10 > 0:43:13we have accumulated a national debt of ?1.5 trillion,
0:43:13 > 0:43:17?1.5 trillion, completely unpayable.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20And this constant use of housing bubbles
0:43:20 > 0:43:22and of pumping money into housing
0:43:22 > 0:43:26to try and save themselves from serious economic decisions
0:43:26 > 0:43:28has been one of the causes...
0:43:28 > 0:43:30Are you saying there's a motive not to build houses?
0:43:30 > 0:43:33Well, the housing policy is not directed by any desire
0:43:33 > 0:43:34to build houses.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37The housing policy is directed to cover up for the fact
0:43:37 > 0:43:39that they've failed to manage the economy of the country
0:43:39 > 0:43:40over several decades.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43And Victoria, although a lot of what she said
0:43:43 > 0:43:45about housing in London was extremely sensible,
0:43:45 > 0:43:47for Justine Greening to imagine that young people
0:43:47 > 0:43:49can buy property in London...
0:43:49 > 0:43:52This is the best government that hedge funds could buy,
0:43:52 > 0:43:55and they obviously spend time with nobody else but hedge-fund managers
0:43:55 > 0:43:58if they think that any young people can afford houses.
0:43:58 > 0:44:02But the problem that we also face is that how can a country
0:44:02 > 0:44:06which has such a major problem in housing, how can it conceivably
0:44:06 > 0:44:08have a policy of undiscriminating,
0:44:08 > 0:44:11non-selective mass immigration at the same time?
0:44:11 > 0:44:13Is this not guaranteed to cause greater problems
0:44:13 > 0:44:15than you already have?
0:44:15 > 0:44:17To say the number of people makes no difference is absurd.
0:44:17 > 0:44:20No, I didn't say the number of people makes no difference.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23I said it would be wrong to imagine that the population of London
0:44:23 > 0:44:24is too big because of immigrants
0:44:24 > 0:44:26when it's only the same as it was in the '40s.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29I don't live in London, and I recognise the existence
0:44:29 > 0:44:32of other parts of the country, but there is absolutely no doubt -
0:44:32 > 0:44:36and the recent projections show that our population is rising
0:44:36 > 0:44:38towards 70 million at an astonishing rate -
0:44:38 > 0:44:41there is no doubt that there are a lot more people in this country
0:44:41 > 0:44:45than there used to be, and a great deal of them are the result
0:44:45 > 0:44:48of uncontrolled mass immigration, which we will not control
0:44:48 > 0:44:50and which, until we leave the European Union, we can't control.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53APPLAUSE
0:44:53 > 0:44:55If you think one should control the population
0:44:55 > 0:44:57where it's too big, and the main reason, if the population
0:44:57 > 0:45:00is too big, is because it's ageing, people are living longer,
0:45:00 > 0:45:03how do we control that? Should we get rid of the old folk as well?
0:45:03 > 0:45:07Well, if you have, as I say, a set of existing circumstances,
0:45:07 > 0:45:12of which that may be one, which have caused a major housing crisis
0:45:12 > 0:45:15and problems for almost anybody seeking to buy a house,
0:45:15 > 0:45:18it doesn't seem to me to be sensible to bring in a very large
0:45:18 > 0:45:21number of people who haven't got houses to live in at the same time.
0:45:21 > 0:45:26Isn't that elementary? We don't have a housing crisis... Oh, no(!)
0:45:26 > 0:45:29..because of immigrants but because we haven't built enough homes.
0:45:29 > 0:45:33All right. We've got ten minutes, and I want a couple more questions,
0:45:33 > 0:45:35or at least one more, if I can,
0:45:35 > 0:45:37before we come to the end of the programme.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39James Barton's question, please, next.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42Are cuts to the police force endangering the public?
0:45:42 > 0:45:46Cuts to the police force, are they endangering the public?
0:45:46 > 0:45:50The Met here in London believes it faces cuts of up to a billion
0:45:50 > 0:45:52over the next five years.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55Jenny Jones, I think you're in a position to answer this,
0:45:55 > 0:45:58because you're on the London Assembly police committee but you're also
0:45:58 > 0:46:02defined - I think I've got this right - as a domestic extremist by the Met.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05Is that right? So you're running the police,
0:46:05 > 0:46:09who define you as a danger, presumably.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12Yes, I was tagged as a domestic extremist by the Met Police.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15I was on their database for ten years.
0:46:15 > 0:46:17They've told me I've been taken off, but I've actually
0:46:17 > 0:46:22reapplied for my file to find out if they actually have taken me off.
0:46:22 > 0:46:25I've been a critic of the police for a long, long time,
0:46:25 > 0:46:30but even I think that these cuts are starting to endanger the public.
0:46:30 > 0:46:34The fact is, they were so fast, so savage - by a Tory government!
0:46:34 > 0:46:37Who'd have thought a Tory government would slash at police
0:46:37 > 0:46:38funding like that?
0:46:38 > 0:46:42Nobody doubts there was fat to trim from all the police budgets,
0:46:42 > 0:46:44but it's gone too far.
0:46:44 > 0:46:46They were done so quickly, the cuts, that the
0:46:46 > 0:46:49police themselves had no time to be strategic about the cuts.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52They had to sort of slash and burn.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54And that's no way to run any sort of police force.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58And does it endanger the public? I think it does. I think it does.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01The real problem for the Met Police in particular
0:47:01 > 0:47:03is of course that they have a lot of other functions,
0:47:03 > 0:47:08international and domestic, that other police forces don't have,
0:47:08 > 0:47:11and the Government repeatedly doesn't pay them for it.
0:47:11 > 0:47:12Assange, for example,
0:47:12 > 0:47:16keeping him trapped in the embassy for all those years, ?12 million.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19The Met hasn't seen a penny of it. At least, I hope that's still true.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22But perhaps they will tomorrow, now I've mentioned it.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24All right. You, sir, in the middle there.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27It just goes sort of hand in hand with Tories just making stuff up.
0:47:27 > 0:47:31I mean, the manifestos that I heard of in this election just gone
0:47:31 > 0:47:35and the election in 2010 with the coalition said that there'd be more
0:47:35 > 0:47:39patrolling generally in areas, and there definitely isn't.
0:47:39 > 0:47:40My area generally, I'm lucky
0:47:40 > 0:47:44if I call the police for anything and they actually turn up three
0:47:44 > 0:47:46hours later, only to look around, walk around a bit
0:47:46 > 0:47:50and then just move off again. So cuts are just a joke, aren't they?
0:47:50 > 0:47:53And you, sir, in the white shirt there.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56Thank you. Justine, I would just like to know, the Tories have always
0:47:56 > 0:47:58had a very good relationship with the police,
0:47:58 > 0:48:00so why are you making these cuts now?
0:48:00 > 0:48:04If you look at crime across the board, actually, in London,
0:48:04 > 0:48:07it's fallen dramatically over the last few years.
0:48:07 > 0:48:08MURMURING IN AUDIENCE
0:48:08 > 0:48:12At the same time, people who have been victims of crime are saying
0:48:12 > 0:48:15they're more satisfied, actually, with how they're being dealt with
0:48:15 > 0:48:16with the police.
0:48:16 > 0:48:20At the same time as that, we also need to make sure that we
0:48:20 > 0:48:23deliver on making sure our public finances are affordable
0:48:23 > 0:48:26for the public, and that includes making sure that...
0:48:26 > 0:48:29the policing we have is on a sustainable
0:48:29 > 0:48:33footing in terms of how much money's going into it.
0:48:33 > 0:48:37So we're trying to make these different objectives match up.
0:48:37 > 0:48:41I think we are getting there. But we've been elected to try
0:48:41 > 0:48:46and get the rest of that deficit that we inherited dealt with.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49It doesn't do us any good to hand over a whole load
0:48:49 > 0:48:52of debts to the next generation. We're getting on with doing that.
0:48:52 > 0:48:56We've got the spending review in November, which will set out how
0:48:56 > 0:49:01we're going to make the next set of savings in terms of public finances.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04But I meet up with my borough commander
0:49:04 > 0:49:07regularly in Wandsworth, and actually, they do
0:49:07 > 0:49:10work very hard to look at how they can run themselves more
0:49:10 > 0:49:14effectively, more efficiently, and I think it's wrong to say that the
0:49:14 > 0:49:18changes in funding are just suddenly being put onto the Met Police.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20They are challenging, they are difficult,
0:49:20 > 0:49:22but actually, people are working to make sure
0:49:22 > 0:49:26how we can make sure policing in London is able to continue
0:49:26 > 0:49:29to be as successful in the future as it's been in the past,
0:49:29 > 0:49:31but at the same time, it's done in a way
0:49:31 > 0:49:33that has a sustainable level of funding
0:49:33 > 0:49:35that's going to be affordable.
0:49:35 > 0:49:40Hang on - you say that it's...that crime is falling,
0:49:40 > 0:49:43but the figures for London on knife crime show a big rise.
0:49:43 > 0:49:47Knife crime is up... 18% increase.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50If you look at crime, violent crime, including on transport,
0:49:50 > 0:49:54for example, you've seen year-on-year reductions.
0:49:54 > 0:49:58So the reality is... Justine... ..crime overall has fallen.
0:49:58 > 0:50:00We want to see those trends continue.
0:50:00 > 0:50:03But at the same time, we've got to make sure that our police
0:50:03 > 0:50:05is funded in a sustainable way.
0:50:05 > 0:50:09Knife crime is up 14%, serious youth violence is up 8%,
0:50:09 > 0:50:12youth gang offences are up 23%.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14Is this because of cuts to the police?
0:50:14 > 0:50:16Well, I asked this question.
0:50:16 > 0:50:18I sit on the Home Affairs Select Committee.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21We took evidence from a number of chief constables
0:50:21 > 0:50:23and I asked them the specific question,
0:50:23 > 0:50:25the question just asked - will the public...
0:50:25 > 0:50:29"Will you be able to keep the public safe in the way that you have
0:50:29 > 0:50:30"up to now, after these cuts?"
0:50:30 > 0:50:32And they doubted their ability to do that,
0:50:32 > 0:50:35particularly the chief constable for Lancashire.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37There are two specific issues that I have.
0:50:37 > 0:50:41We in London are facing losing more than 5,000 officers.
0:50:41 > 0:50:42At the moment, there are proposals
0:50:42 > 0:50:45to lose all of our Police Community Support Officers.
0:50:45 > 0:50:48We have a particular problem in my borough, next to Justine's,
0:50:48 > 0:50:50of serious youth violence.
0:50:50 > 0:50:53Neighbourhood policing is absolutely fundamental
0:50:53 > 0:50:56to preventing this gang culture capturing our young people.
0:50:56 > 0:50:57APPLAUSE
0:50:57 > 0:51:00Are you talking about the money that's provided
0:51:00 > 0:51:03or about the way the police use the money? Two different... Both.
0:51:03 > 0:51:05I asked the Met Commissioner, the Deputy Met Commissioner,
0:51:05 > 0:51:07who we had in front of us, I said,
0:51:07 > 0:51:09"How important is neighbourhood policing
0:51:09 > 0:51:12"and will you be able to carry on the prevention work around gangs
0:51:12 > 0:51:15"with the level of cuts sustained? Will that not be more difficult?"
0:51:15 > 0:51:18He said that'll be very challenging. The other big issue we're looking at
0:51:18 > 0:51:21in my borough is we've had quite a lot of...
0:51:21 > 0:51:23We've got historic child abuse investigations.
0:51:23 > 0:51:25Of course, it's not historic for the people who are the victims
0:51:25 > 0:51:27and survivors of that.
0:51:27 > 0:51:29But the money that is going into that
0:51:29 > 0:51:31is being taken out of the general pot.
0:51:31 > 0:51:36There isn't even a specific sum of money for this very serious issue
0:51:36 > 0:51:37that has particularly come to the fore
0:51:37 > 0:51:39over the last two to three years.
0:51:39 > 0:51:41Actually, if you look at the Met, of the 30,000 referrers
0:51:41 > 0:51:45that are expected from Justice Goddard's inquiry
0:51:45 > 0:51:47into historic child abuse,
0:51:47 > 0:51:49half of those are going to be in London.
0:51:49 > 0:51:53They are not provided with any extra resources for the investigation.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56I'll come to you, sir, in the front - briefly, you wouldn't make any cuts
0:51:56 > 0:51:58in the pricing of...? We believe... Labour would spend...
0:51:58 > 0:52:01You could make up to 10% cuts. That's it. You would make cuts.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03Fine. I just want to make the point. They're cutting...
0:52:03 > 0:52:06The original Met budget is going to be a third less
0:52:06 > 0:52:08than what it was after those cuts.
0:52:08 > 0:52:11We do not believe that the police can sustain that.
0:52:11 > 0:52:15A contributing factor to our problems with the police
0:52:15 > 0:52:18is mismanagement of what we can afford.
0:52:18 > 0:52:20It is too top-heavy.
0:52:20 > 0:52:25We've got chief constables, deputy chief constables
0:52:25 > 0:52:30assistant chief constables, deputy assistant chief constables...
0:52:30 > 0:52:32I'm not making it up, it's a fact.
0:52:32 > 0:52:34APPLAUSE
0:52:34 > 0:52:40No, no... It's a fact, it's a fact.
0:52:40 > 0:52:42After that, you've got chief superintendents,
0:52:42 > 0:52:44they've got superintendents,
0:52:44 > 0:52:46they've got chief inspectors, inspectors,
0:52:46 > 0:52:50before you get to sergeants, and then...and then...
0:52:50 > 0:52:54Look at the salary of our own commissioner in London -
0:52:54 > 0:52:56?400,000 a year.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59And I'm not talking about the extras.
0:52:59 > 0:53:03Compare that salary with that of the constable - ?28,000.
0:53:03 > 0:53:05All right, Peter Hitchens. Thank you very much.
0:53:05 > 0:53:07APPLAUSE I think we get the point!
0:53:07 > 0:53:10It's a good point, but some years ago,
0:53:10 > 0:53:13I got tired of listening to the police complaining about
0:53:13 > 0:53:15how they couldn't do what they were supposed to do
0:53:15 > 0:53:18because they didn't have enough numbers.
0:53:18 > 0:53:19The truth is that, for some years,
0:53:19 > 0:53:22there have been far more police officers in the country -
0:53:22 > 0:53:26both per head of the population and in total -
0:53:26 > 0:53:28than there were in the '60s,
0:53:28 > 0:53:31when we had much more effective policing than we do now.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34The reason for the problem is that the police... The '60s?
0:53:34 > 0:53:36The Met was the most corrupt... They're very nice people.
0:53:36 > 0:53:41They've very nice people but they do the wrong thing all the time.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44If you are burgled or if you are robbed or if you are mugged,
0:53:44 > 0:53:49the police cannot unburgle you or unmug you or...or unrob you.
0:53:49 > 0:53:53Nothing... Are the cuts endangering the public, Peter, is the question?
0:53:53 > 0:53:56We only have a short time. I know what the question is,
0:53:56 > 0:53:58but if you just have cliched politics...
0:53:58 > 0:53:59Let politicians run on,
0:53:59 > 0:54:04but let anybody who has anything original to say shut up. No, Peter.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06I will not shut up, because it's so important.
0:54:06 > 0:54:09The police are supposed - and they were invented in this
0:54:09 > 0:54:12country by Robert Peel - to do one thing.
0:54:12 > 0:54:16To patrol, on foot, the streets to prevent crime and disorder.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19That is something they no longer do.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21If they will start doing that again, we should pay them
0:54:21 > 0:54:23a king's ransom, all the money we've got.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26But at the moment, they won't do it, they've vanished from the streets.
0:54:26 > 0:54:29They only turn up after things have happened and frankly,
0:54:29 > 0:54:31that creates a demand that could never conceivably...
0:54:31 > 0:54:34I have the solution to this problem, it's very simple.
0:54:34 > 0:54:38Like most people in London, or any big city, I don't see a policeman
0:54:38 > 0:54:39from one month to the next,
0:54:39 > 0:54:41but I can't move for traffic wardens.
0:54:41 > 0:54:45They can patrol the streets, don't worry about that.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48That's because imposing parking crimes
0:54:48 > 0:54:50is a massively profitable business.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53The traffic wardens are being gradually replaced by cameras,
0:54:53 > 0:54:55which means greater income, lower outlay.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58Spend the same money on policemen. All right. I'm going to do...
0:54:58 > 0:55:02I'm going to take one last question round the table in the light
0:55:02 > 0:55:06of something that happened this week from Tim Paramore, please.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09Is the government turning our schools into joyless exam factories?
0:55:09 > 0:55:11Briefly - "joyless exam factories".
0:55:11 > 0:55:15This is the news that seven-year-olds are now going to be tested
0:55:15 > 0:55:17to see how they're doing.
0:55:17 > 0:55:19Justine Greening, but briefly, please.
0:55:19 > 0:55:21No... Pace, Peter.
0:55:21 > 0:55:24No, we're not, but what we do want to do is make sure
0:55:24 > 0:55:27we have a good sense of where children have got to
0:55:27 > 0:55:29as they pass through schools,
0:55:29 > 0:55:31so that they're not all dealt with the same
0:55:31 > 0:55:32and actually, across the board,
0:55:32 > 0:55:36we can start to get a better sense of how well children,
0:55:36 > 0:55:39individual children, are progressing through school
0:55:39 > 0:55:41and how well schools are doing at bringing them on
0:55:41 > 0:55:44and helping them to be in a position to reach their own potential.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47Joyless exam factories - Jenny Jones, do you agree?
0:55:47 > 0:55:50Absolutely, yes - childhood should be a time
0:55:50 > 0:55:52when you learn to enjoy learning.
0:55:52 > 0:55:55It should be full of joy and excitement and pleasure
0:55:55 > 0:55:58and actually finding out about the world around you.
0:55:58 > 0:56:00So the idea of constantly testing and assessing
0:56:00 > 0:56:02and putting stress on seven-year-olds...
0:56:02 > 0:56:05Why would we do that to our children?
0:56:05 > 0:56:06All right - Peter Hitchens.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08APPLAUSE
0:56:10 > 0:56:12It is true that this is what they are and it's because,
0:56:12 > 0:56:15rather that doing what needs to be done to the schools -
0:56:15 > 0:56:16that is to say, bringing back
0:56:16 > 0:56:19proper, rigorous education in the basics
0:56:19 > 0:56:23and selection in secondary schools on academic merit -
0:56:23 > 0:56:26they insist on constantly reaching for gimmicks
0:56:26 > 0:56:29and on driving the schools and punishing the schools
0:56:29 > 0:56:31with incessant five-year-plans and exhortation.
0:56:31 > 0:56:33That's the only policy they have
0:56:33 > 0:56:35because they will not, for ideological reasons,
0:56:35 > 0:56:37do the only thing which would make the schools better.
0:56:37 > 0:56:40Victoria Coren - thank you, Peter. Um... Yes, absolutely,
0:56:40 > 0:56:42joyless exam - not just that.
0:56:42 > 0:56:45Joyless exam factories all day and then hours of homework at night.
0:56:45 > 0:56:49They can't even come home and play. It's awful. It's pertinent to me,
0:56:49 > 0:56:51because I've decided as a result of this
0:56:51 > 0:56:53that our daughter will not go to school at all,
0:56:53 > 0:56:55it's too miserable - she'll be home-schooled.
0:56:55 > 0:56:58My husband, unfortunately, thinks that means she'll turn out weird.
0:56:58 > 0:57:01So...the debate continues. Learn to play poker at an early age.
0:57:01 > 0:57:02I think that's the only way.
0:57:02 > 0:57:06The woman in the very front, here, then I'll come to you, Chuka.
0:57:06 > 0:57:07Just briefly. I just wanted to ask
0:57:07 > 0:57:10where you saw the education system in five years' time.
0:57:10 > 0:57:13I think that might take quite a long time to answer.
0:57:13 > 0:57:16If you'll excuse me, we won't do that, but Chuka, very briefly.
0:57:16 > 0:57:19Joyless exam factories? Or are you in favour of testing at seven?
0:57:19 > 0:57:23No, I think there is a problem with turning into joyless exam factories.
0:57:23 > 0:57:25The problems with our schools are not because our kids
0:57:25 > 0:57:27are not doing enough exams and tests.
0:57:27 > 0:57:29We need more teachers.
0:57:29 > 0:57:31We've got loads of kids in overcrowded classrooms,
0:57:31 > 0:57:33at the moment, and that should actually be the focus,
0:57:33 > 0:57:37I think, as opposed to continually...
0:57:37 > 0:57:41There a massive teaching recruitment crisis, exactly, as that lady says.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43Resources... We've got record numbers,
0:57:43 > 0:57:45record numbers of teachers are leaving the profession
0:57:45 > 0:57:47and that's what the Government should be focused on,
0:57:47 > 0:57:50not incessantly testing our young people.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52I wish this debate could go on, but it can't,
0:57:52 > 0:57:54because we only get our hour, though on radio,
0:57:54 > 0:57:56it does go on a bit longer, I'll tell you in a moment.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58But our time's up on Question Time.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01We're going to be in Stoke-on-Trent next week.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03We've got Sajid Javid for the Tories,
0:58:03 > 0:58:05Lucy Powell for Labour,
0:58:05 > 0:58:07the writer and activist Paris Lees
0:58:07 > 0:58:08among those on the panel.
0:58:08 > 0:58:10The week after that, we'll be in Belfast.
0:58:10 > 0:58:13So if you want to come to Stoke or Belfast, go to the website,
0:58:13 > 0:58:15call the number on the screen...
0:58:18 > 0:58:19If you're listening on 5 Live,
0:58:19 > 0:58:21as you know, this debate continues
0:58:21 > 0:58:22on Question Time Extra Time,
0:58:22 > 0:58:23but on here, my thanks
0:58:23 > 0:58:26to all our panellists and to you, our audience.
0:58:26 > 0:58:30From Tottenham in London, until next Thursday, goodnight.
0:58:30 > 0:58:32APPLAUSE
0:59:03 > 0:59:06The knives are sharpened and the heat is on. It can only mean one thing.
0:59:06 > 0:59:08I've never, ever seen that!
0:59:08 > 0:59:11Britain's best chefs are back in town.