:00:00. > :00:18.Welcome, whether you're watching or listening, to our audience here,
:00:19. > :00:25.Conservative Business Secretary, Sajid Javid.
:00:26. > :00:28.Labour's Shadow Education Secretary, Lucy Powell.
:00:29. > :00:35.Managing Editor of The Sun, Stig Abell.
:00:36. > :00:55.And the writer and campaigner for transgender rights Paris Lees.
:00:56. > :00:58.If you want to text or tweet, our hashtag is BBCQT,
:00:59. > :01:04.Text comments to 83981, and press the Red Button to see what
:01:05. > :01:22.Our first question from Matthew Smith, please. Has David Cameron
:01:23. > :01:25.said his side 's way too low in his renegotiation of's membership of the
:01:26. > :01:34.European Union. -- set his sights way too low. He has set his sights
:01:35. > :01:40.too low, and he has missed, which is the tragic thing for him. The
:01:41. > :01:45.difficulty he has for Europe, he is leading a bunch of Eurosceptics. The
:01:46. > :01:52.difficulty for the Labour Party as they are led by a Eurosceptic. The
:01:53. > :01:55.European situation is too big for British politics. We don't know how
:01:56. > :02:00.to deal with it. The Tories and Labour are riven by it. Ukip have a
:02:01. > :02:03.coherent policy but cannot get elected for love nor money. British
:02:04. > :02:07.politics as it currently stands cannot deal with the European
:02:08. > :02:10.question. The problem for David Cameron is that what he has set out
:02:11. > :02:15.to try and achieve will not actually help the central problem on people's
:02:16. > :02:21.mines, which is how we control immigration in this country. Nobody
:02:22. > :02:24.is saying immigration is wrong. We are a nation of immigrants, but
:02:25. > :02:27.people in this country have an entitlement when they look at their
:02:28. > :02:31.elected representatives to say, you tell me what you believe in terms of
:02:32. > :02:35.immigration and I will hold you to account on what you then deliver.
:02:36. > :02:39.And that is absolutely impossible in the current political system. You
:02:40. > :02:44.think immigration is at the heart of the debate in the referendum?
:02:45. > :02:47.Nothing else? It is about sovereignty, our place in the world,
:02:48. > :02:52.but it will boil down to immigration. Not whether immigration
:02:53. > :02:55.is good or bad but whether we expect our politicians to offer an argument
:02:56. > :03:00.about whether to control it and to what extent.
:03:01. > :03:05.APPLAUSE Sajid Javid. The racial chip we have
:03:06. > :03:12.with the EU today is not won the British people voted for 40 years
:03:13. > :03:16.ago. -- the relationship. That is why we need fundamental reform. The
:03:17. > :03:20.EU is on the wrong track. What David Cameron set out this week in more
:03:21. > :03:25.detail are just the kind of changes that we want to see. For example, as
:03:26. > :03:30.Business Secretary, I want business to do even better in Britain, to
:03:31. > :03:35.create more jobs and growth. But we are held back with the EU as it is.
:03:36. > :03:42.It is holding us back. It is not competitive enough. There is too
:03:43. > :03:48.much red tape. Did he set his sights too low? No, we have an ambitious
:03:49. > :03:51.package with four major parts to it. If we achieve that we can
:03:52. > :03:56.fundamentally change the relationship. The only way we will
:03:57. > :03:59.get traction and change is because we have called the referendum.
:04:00. > :04:03.Without a referendum we would not be sitting round the negotiating table
:04:04. > :04:08.with European partners even having this discussion. It is going to be a
:04:09. > :04:11.bumpy road. I am not saying it will be easy to get this negotiation
:04:12. > :04:18.done, but we are on the right track and we can get it done. You, in the
:04:19. > :04:22.front. What Cameron has asked for is a complete let down, especially on
:04:23. > :04:26.immigration. When we came here tonight we shut our front door to
:04:27. > :04:32.stop anyone coming into our house. As a nation, we have left the front
:04:33. > :04:40.door open to 450 million residents from the EU. Any of those can come
:04:41. > :04:44.here at any time. Last year, over 600,000 people, and that is just the
:04:45. > :04:49.official number, came into the UK. We cannot go on like this and the
:04:50. > :04:54.only way to stop it, the only way to stop it is to ensure we have control
:04:55. > :04:58.of our borders. The EU will not let us control our borders so the only
:04:59. > :05:04.way we can do it is to vote to come out of the EU.
:05:05. > :05:13.APPLAUSE Lucy Powell. I'm afraid I don't
:05:14. > :05:17.agree with that last sentiment. I will be campaigning for an voting
:05:18. > :05:24.for Britain to stay in the European Union because I think our membership
:05:25. > :05:28.of the European Union makes us a more powerful, prosperous and secure
:05:29. > :05:39.country. I share the frustration is that people have. We do need to
:05:40. > :05:42.engage in reforming Europe, but reforming Europe should be an
:05:43. > :05:46.ongoing process, not a one-off event. It should be something we are
:05:47. > :05:53.demanding and getting and negotiating on and negotiating on an
:05:54. > :05:57.ongoing basis. But the negotiations David Cameron has set out this week
:05:58. > :06:00.say more about the negotiations he is having with his backbenchers than
:06:01. > :06:07.about any real negotiations with Europe. What would you have had that
:06:08. > :06:11.isn't there? Where he is at fault is that he is playing a high risk game
:06:12. > :06:15.of roulette with the future of the country. He is unable to show the
:06:16. > :06:19.leadership we need entering into this campaign about whether we stay
:06:20. > :06:22.in Europe or not. He is not able to say which side of the fence he will
:06:23. > :06:29.come down on in the referendum. Sajid Javid is here this evening,
:06:30. > :06:33.the Business Secretary, supposedly championing British business
:06:34. > :06:37.interests in the country. The vast majority of British businesses want
:06:38. > :06:40.to remain in the EU. He is not able to say whether he will be
:06:41. > :06:43.campaigning for us to stay in or not. This is the British government
:06:44. > :06:47.only a few months away from one of our biggest decisions as a country,
:06:48. > :06:53.and they are unable to tell you what they think about it.
:06:54. > :06:58.APPLAUSE Sajid Javid, perhaps you can pick up
:06:59. > :07:02.on that point. Do you know which way you will go? You once said you would
:07:03. > :07:10.not shed a tear if we left the EU. Is that still your view? I think we
:07:11. > :07:14.need fundamental change. If we don't get change, I think the costs of
:07:15. > :07:20.staying in outweigh the benefits. That is why we need reform. So you
:07:21. > :07:24.could see yourself breaking away from the Cabinet and David Cameron?
:07:25. > :07:29.I can see myself campaigning for reform, which is what I am doing
:07:30. > :07:33.now. Can you see circumstances where you would break away? I will
:07:34. > :07:38.campaign for reform and the decision will be made at the referendum. My
:07:39. > :07:42.decision depends on the final package. As the Prime Minister has
:07:43. > :07:46.said himself, nothing is off the table. Lucy says that she wants some
:07:47. > :07:51.reform but we are only having a discussion about reform because we
:07:52. > :07:53.are having a referendum. Your party did not want a referendum. That is
:07:54. > :08:00.what you said before the election, and now you seem to want one. We are
:08:01. > :08:06.having a referendum. You were against it. The negotiating position
:08:07. > :08:11.on limiting in work benefits was a policy that the Labour Party adopted
:08:12. > :08:17.ahead of the last election. What is the point of these policies without
:08:18. > :08:20.a referendum? We were going around Europe as an opposition party, not
:08:21. > :08:23.the government, and asking other countries in the EU commission if
:08:24. > :08:28.they would negotiate on such a policy as David Cameron set out.
:08:29. > :08:31.They were happy to have those conversations. They said, only a
:08:32. > :08:35.year ago, at that point they had heard nothing from the British
:08:36. > :08:38.government asking those questions. In opposition, the Labour Party was
:08:39. > :08:46.having nose, stations before David Cameron was. Just like his manifesto
:08:47. > :08:51.on benefits, David Cameron's statement on the European Union is
:08:52. > :08:53.way too vague. I think he is going to use this referendum to destroy
:08:54. > :08:59.workers rights and give us an option in without the social Charter, or
:09:00. > :09:07.out, and therefore destroyed workers' rights, which is his and
:09:08. > :09:12.Sajid Javid's gold. I don't think David Cameron has set
:09:13. > :09:19.his targets too low. Let's take, for example, immigration. Immigration is
:09:20. > :09:23.far too high, yes, we know that. But the immigrants, the migrants that
:09:24. > :09:29.come into the UK, they play their part in society. They do the jobs
:09:30. > :09:35.that the British people, that a minority of British people do not
:09:36. > :09:39.want to do. By these reforms we are not bowing down to the European
:09:40. > :09:44.Union. We are showing that we are Great Britain. We are showing we are
:09:45. > :09:58.a democratic society. Immigration is too high. But the immigrants that
:09:59. > :10:03.come into the country, they do work. I have looked at Mr Cameron's four
:10:04. > :10:07.points. The first one talking about non-Eurozone countries having equal
:10:08. > :10:12.access to the single market. Second, strengthening national parliaments.
:10:13. > :10:15.The third, cutting red tape. We have heard it before. Tony Blair was
:10:16. > :10:19.talking about cutting red tape ten years ago. The fourth point, denying
:10:20. > :10:24.benefits to EU migrants for four years, it ain't going to happen.
:10:25. > :10:29.Donald Tusk has said will very difficult. Jean-Claude Juncker,
:10:30. > :10:33.resident of the EU commission, thinks it breaks EU law. The
:10:34. > :10:37.president of the European Parliament and announced it within an hour of
:10:38. > :10:41.Cameron saying it. The real point is what he has not asked for. There is
:10:42. > :10:47.nothing about reduction of contributions, which are running at
:10:48. > :10:52.?55 million each day. Nothing on the Common Agricultural Policy, pushing
:10:53. > :10:56.the price... You said he is not going to get these points, so
:10:57. > :11:03.presumably you will urge people to vote against. Hang on. What is the
:11:04. > :11:08.answer to the question? He will try to perform the same trick as Harold
:11:09. > :11:11.Wilson in 1975. They will get cosmetic changes, come to the
:11:12. > :11:15.British people and say, isn't it a great victory? There is not gain to
:11:16. > :11:20.be any harmonisation, no pooling of sovereignty. What happens after
:11:21. > :11:25.that? We had a single European act which created the single market, we
:11:26. > :11:35.have a flag, an anthem, the majority of laws made in Brussels. Stop
:11:36. > :11:44.making a speech, Paul. I know you are used to making speeches. The
:11:45. > :11:54.bottom line is this. The corn is on. Don't be fooled again like in 1975.
:11:55. > :12:02.Let's rewrite that wrong. Well done, Paul. Will David Cameron learn a
:12:03. > :12:11.trick from the SNP and have a second referendum if the first one fails?
:12:12. > :12:15.Sajid Javid. There will only be one referendum. We need certainty,
:12:16. > :12:23.business needs certainty and there will be one referendum. Paris Lees.
:12:24. > :12:30.I feel sad hearing there is so much anti-European Union feeling in the
:12:31. > :12:35.room, actually. I get it. I get that it is frustrating, the red tape and
:12:36. > :12:40.everything. And of course there is deadwood that can be cut out with
:12:41. > :12:45.bureaucrats and God knows who gives them authority or where they get
:12:46. > :12:49.their budgets from. So, yes, we need to see some change. But I think
:12:50. > :12:54.there is a more important point, which is that we are taking for
:12:55. > :13:00.granted what we have got. Have we forgotten what Europe, as it stands
:13:01. > :13:08.now, replaced. It replaced 300 years of us being at war with one another.
:13:09. > :13:13.APPLAUSE We almost have the last one ended.
:13:14. > :13:17.We live in an increasingly globalised world. It may sound
:13:18. > :13:21.idealistic, but we all have to work together and pull together.
:13:22. > :13:28.Ultimately, we do need a friend, it is up to the people to decide. I
:13:29. > :13:32.really hope we decide to stay part of it because I believe in us coming
:13:33. > :13:34.together and realising we are Europeans and can work for our
:13:35. > :13:38.common benefit, in the same way that I want Britain to stay together and
:13:39. > :13:40.I do not want Scotland to leave. I want us to be together, not
:13:41. > :13:47.separate. APPLAUSE
:13:48. > :13:52.Paris is right from an idealistic point of view, but Europe has not
:13:53. > :13:56.solved the problem with Ukraine and Putin's warmongering, has not solved
:13:57. > :14:00.the refugee crisis. At the time when you expect an organisation like the
:14:01. > :14:06.EU to say, here are solutions, it has not managed to deliver them.
:14:07. > :14:10.Russia is being very aggressive to Ukraine. That would not now happen
:14:11. > :14:18.between Britain and France. That is how it was for hundreds of years. I
:14:19. > :14:21.don't think that the EU stops wars. We will have lots more on this as
:14:22. > :14:28.the referendum gets closer. Do you have any idea when it is going to
:14:29. > :14:35.be? Before the end of 2017. I want to go back to the question. Where do
:14:36. > :14:40.you stand on this? It was more of a question about the lack of democracy
:14:41. > :14:46.within the European Union. You think that was the flaw in what Cameron is
:14:47. > :14:51.suggesting he renegotiate? There is that and the contribution levels,
:14:52. > :14:57.?12 billion per year, another ?2 billion balance of payments. Back in
:14:58. > :15:01.1975 when we had a referendum, all of the members had a veto on any
:15:02. > :15:06.legislation. That has changed in the years since. That would be a key
:15:07. > :15:10.thing as well for me, it would be a good thing.
:15:11. > :15:16.Let us go on. We have many questions. Simon Langford has a
:15:17. > :15:20.question. Before we do that, I should tell you, Belfast, if you are
:15:21. > :15:23.in Northern Ireland, Belfast next week, Question Time is going to be
:15:24. > :15:27.there and the week after that, it's in your territory, Manchester. Very
:15:28. > :15:33.good. Sorry you came here tonight, you can come back to Manchester!
:15:34. > :15:37.Back to Manchester. Simon Langford's question, please? Was Jeremy
:15:38. > :15:40.Corbyn's bow at the Remembrance Day parade on Sunday really that
:15:41. > :15:47.insufficient and disrespectful or are certain factions of the media
:15:48. > :15:53.using any excuse to bully him? -- APPLAUSE
:15:54. > :15:59.I guess it's the any excuse to bully him part of the question. Paris
:16:00. > :16:07.Lees, what do you think? Oh, poor old Jeremy Corbyn! He seems like a
:16:08. > :16:10.nice guy and Stig I don't think you believe in all the stick you have
:16:11. > :16:13.been giving him. I don't know, I just think Margaret Thatcher Tony
:16:14. > :16:17.Blair, we have had some right nutters running the country over the
:16:18. > :16:22.past 30 years. Jeremy Corbyn stands for peace, people and a fair, more
:16:23. > :16:25.equal society. Do I believe everything that he stands for - no.
:16:26. > :16:30.Do I think he's got all the answers - no. But there is no doubt now that
:16:31. > :16:34.he represents a different way of doing things and I think that's
:16:35. > :16:38.clear from the fact that there are clearly certain people in
:16:39. > :16:42.institutions with vested interests in maintaining the status quo who
:16:43. > :16:49.really don't like Jeremy Corbyn. The Labour Party. So whatever you think
:16:50. > :16:54.about him. Quite. I think he should be more pragmatic. I'm probably more
:16:55. > :16:58.New Labour than Jeremy Corbyn if I got invited to a bruvy council I
:16:59. > :17:01.would probably go. The Queen would have nice tea and cakes and things
:17:02. > :17:05.so I would go and have a laugh. But I think we've got a question now,
:17:06. > :17:09.haven't we, you know, we can either keep voting in the same people and
:17:10. > :17:15.getting the same sort of people and outcomes, or we could try something
:17:16. > :17:19.different. I don't know, I just think that Jeremy Corbyn seems like
:17:20. > :17:23.a nice man, the kind of teacher everybody takes the Mick out of when
:17:24. > :17:26.they start school and then by the end of it everybody loves him so I
:17:27. > :17:31.don't know, I think he's had a rough deal.
:17:32. > :17:37.APPLAUSE Lucy Powell, is he being bullied, by
:17:38. > :17:40.the Labour Party? I think the first thing to remember is what
:17:41. > :17:45.Remembrance Sunday is all about, it's a time we pay our respects to
:17:46. > :17:48.those who gave their lives for their country for our country and who
:17:49. > :17:53.fought for freedoms around the world and lost their life in so doing and
:17:54. > :17:59.we should never forget what Remembrance Sunday is about. I think
:18:00. > :18:05.for a national newspaper to politicise such an event in the way
:18:06. > :18:10.they did with their front-page on Monday was frankly despicable and I
:18:11. > :18:13.think the people who disrespected the veterans on Remembrance Sunday
:18:14. > :18:16.was the Sun newspaper and the Sun journalists when they decided to put
:18:17. > :18:26.together that front-page on Sunday afternoon.
:18:27. > :18:32.APPLAUSE Stig, your newspaper's quote was
:18:33. > :18:42.requests pass cyst Corbyn refuses to bow, nod in my name".
:18:43. > :18:49.Two Labour MPs talked about their view of Jeremy Corbyn. Graham Jones
:18:50. > :18:53.saying they were not giving sufficient respect so it was a
:18:54. > :18:57.story, people were talking about it. -- pacifist. You may well take the
:18:58. > :19:00.view that what he was doing was fine and other people may take the
:19:01. > :19:07.opposite view. The problem Jeremy Corbyn has is, the reason people are
:19:08. > :19:11.scrutinising him is that he is in a difficult position when he seeks to
:19:12. > :19:16.become part of the establishment. He doesn't believe in the monarchy, the
:19:17. > :19:22.Army, or a deterrent in terms of Trident. He believes the death of
:19:23. > :19:28.Osama Bin Laden was a tragedy. He's got perfect rites to have those
:19:29. > :19:32.believes. That's not actually what he says,sth, that's not at all what
:19:33. > :19:37.he said. It's because of the stances he's said. You may well take the
:19:38. > :19:41.view what he said was perfectly fine and the way he conducted himself was
:19:42. > :19:53.perfectly fine. Labour MPs on that day didn't take
:19:54. > :19:57.that view. He's in an extraordinary position.
:19:58. > :20:01.APPLAUSE You, Sir? I would like to say that
:20:02. > :20:06.it's not a case of bullying, it's a case of respect. I noticed it on TV,
:20:07. > :20:11.compared to everyone else that was doing a decent bow and even I sort
:20:12. > :20:16.of nod and bow when I see a hearse go by on a daily basis and it's not
:20:17. > :20:23.bullying at all. What about you on the gangway? Hi,
:20:24. > :20:25.sorry. It's all right. You make the point about not sufficiently
:20:26. > :20:29.respectful. Respect is a personal thing. Respect isn't something that
:20:30. > :20:35.you should have to bow down to some sort of Al mighty respectometer.
:20:36. > :20:39.Respect should be a total personal feeling. Jeremy Corbyn thinks he
:20:40. > :20:42.respected sufficiently, that's fine by me.
:20:43. > :20:49.OK. APPLAUSE
:20:50. > :20:53.The woman at the very back row. Yes? I wonder why it wasn't covered that
:20:54. > :20:57.he stayed behind to the end of the procession, didn't go in for a meal
:20:58. > :21:01.with the other dignitaries to talk to the veterans. He sent a
:21:02. > :21:04.hand-written brief which was very personal then went on to his own
:21:05. > :21:10.constituency to attend another memorial service. Do you think he's
:21:11. > :21:16.being bullied is the point? I think he's being vilified, bullied and the
:21:17. > :21:21.Murdoch press is trying to indoctrine ate the rest of the
:21:22. > :21:23.country into electing another Conservative.
:21:24. > :21:30.APPLAUSE I'll come to you first in red, here?
:21:31. > :21:33.I would like to put it to Stig who works for the Sun, how respectful
:21:34. > :21:41.are you to people many general? I mean, for instance, that photograph
:21:42. > :21:46.of him at the cenotaph bowing his head, right next to it is the
:21:47. > :21:55.picture of a scantily dressed woman. How respectful is that? !
:21:56. > :22:00.It might have gone so far in the other direction now that these
:22:01. > :22:04.people who're attacking him might be doing Corbyn a favour. He's an
:22:05. > :22:07.underdog and there is no doubt he's been powered upon, so it will be
:22:08. > :22:13.interesting to see the effects of this.
:22:14. > :22:19.Paul Nuttall? I missed the bow. I was at the cenotaph in Liverpool, at
:22:20. > :22:23.the remembrance service, and I've also missed it because, as you can
:22:24. > :22:27.guess from my accent, I'm from Liverpool and you very rarely see
:22:28. > :22:35.the Sun! For obvious reasons... APPLAUSE
:22:36. > :22:40.Look, this is just a total none-story, let's be frank about all
:22:41. > :22:44.of this. Whether he bows or not is unimportant. As far as I'm
:22:45. > :22:48.concerned, you know, I think there's far more worrying things about
:22:49. > :22:54.Jeremy Corbyn and that's his views on the IRA, his views on Hezbollah
:22:55. > :23:04.and ham mass, wanting to give the Falklands back to Argentina -- ham
:23:05. > :23:09.mass. Hamas. And to have the General come out on
:23:10. > :23:13.the Marr show on Sunday and say he'd be worried if Jeremy Corbyn becomes
:23:14. > :23:17.Prime Minister, do you know what, so would I, he'd leave us without a
:23:18. > :23:19.nuclear deterrent and not allow us to sit at the top table in the
:23:20. > :23:30.world. APPLAUS
:23:31. > :23:38.Lucy, can we pick up that point. There was a curious moment, because
:23:39. > :23:42.Nicholas Houghton said he was worried and Jeremy Corbyn said this
:23:43. > :23:46.was quite improper for a General to say this, and then Labour's own
:23:47. > :23:50.Shadow Defence Secretary said, I think he was absolutely fine to say
:23:51. > :23:56.that and she believes it, you know, it's a curious party which is so
:23:57. > :24:00.divided on such a serious issue? That's not the sequence of events.
:24:01. > :24:04.Maria responded first and she was on the same TV programme he was. But
:24:05. > :24:10.look, I think that, I don't happen to share the same view as Jeremy
:24:11. > :24:13.Corbyn about the maintenance of our nuclear deterrent, I think it's
:24:14. > :24:19.important that we continue to have that. But I absolutely defend his
:24:20. > :24:23.right to open up a debate about it. He is a politician, it's not for the
:24:24. > :24:28.Chief of the Defence stamp and the Head of The Army to go on national
:24:29. > :24:34.television and talk about Jeremy Corbyn's suitability as Prime
:24:35. > :24:40.Minister or policy discussions about nuclear deterrent... Test the best
:24:41. > :24:46.qualified. We live in... We live in an elected democracy where the
:24:47. > :24:50.people decide through their elected politicians what our policies are
:24:51. > :24:54.about whether we go to war, about what capabilities we have and need
:24:55. > :25:01.and what our policies are. It's for the Chief of Defence Staff to carry
:25:02. > :25:05.out the policies. Is it for you a deal breaker if Jeremy Corbyn would
:25:06. > :25:11.activate or say whether he'd be prepared to say it's not a deterrent
:25:12. > :25:14.or not, are you indifferent? It's an incredibly important issue. Which
:25:15. > :25:19.side are you on, are you in favour of having the deterrent? Yesp How
:25:20. > :25:27.can you be in a party of someone who is not in favour? The vast majority
:25:28. > :25:31.of... Perfectly obvious point, but how do you go into an election with
:25:32. > :25:36.a leader that says he's not if favour of nuclear deterrents with
:25:37. > :25:40.the party members who say they want them? There is an important debate
:25:41. > :25:44.to have. You were elected on the mandate. When you were elected not
:25:45. > :25:48.that long ago you said, as a party, we believe in the Trident deterrent,
:25:49. > :25:53.now you are a party whose leader says it's not. Imp elected on one
:25:54. > :25:57.set of beliefs and you are moving away from it or your leader is, and
:25:58. > :26:04.that's an extraordinary position to be in. The Labour Party, what can
:26:05. > :26:09.you do, people support him and his policies and we can't ignore it, you
:26:10. > :26:14.have to respect the fact he's popular and principled whether you
:26:15. > :26:20.agree with him or not. So Sajid Javid, popular and principled? On
:26:21. > :26:25.the point about the General, he shouldn't be involved in politics
:26:26. > :26:29.but this General wasn't. He was pointing out our deterrent works
:26:30. > :26:34.every second every hour of every day by deterring and if you have
:26:35. > :26:36.someone... APPLAUSE
:26:37. > :26:38.If you have someone who wants to be Prime Minister, remember Jeremy
:26:39. > :26:43.Corbyn is the alternative Prime Minister, that's what he is, so he
:26:44. > :26:47.should be scrutinised. If you have someone who says I would never press
:26:48. > :26:52.the button under any circumstances, it's not a deterrent any more. Hang
:26:53. > :26:56.on, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, the Chief of Defence
:26:57. > :27:02.Staff by saying what he'd said, it would worry me if that thought was
:27:03. > :27:06.translated into power, ie I wouldn't use the deterrent, is interfering in
:27:07. > :27:10.politics. It's not because he's asked a question about if there is
:27:11. > :27:14.someone that says I'll never press the button, what happens and his
:27:15. > :27:18.answer is, that it means it's no longer a deterrent. From that point
:27:19. > :27:23.on, it's no longer a deterrent. It won't deter anyone. Hang on, hang
:27:24. > :27:31.on, hang on. You are not saying there can't be a Government that
:27:32. > :27:35.wins an election on a unilateral disarmament? Of course if that's
:27:36. > :27:40.what the British people vote for. He's not saying that. The point is,
:27:41. > :27:47.it wasn't a hypothetical debate he was having. This is the live issue
:27:48. > :27:50.because Jeremy Corbyn's set out a position and so he was Wading into
:27:51. > :27:54.that debate and that political debate. There was no question of
:27:55. > :27:59.that, it was a clumsy intervention into politics which is not what he
:28:00. > :28:05.should be doing, he's the Chief of the Defence Staff. We are not an
:28:06. > :28:09.Army-run country. One of our most decorated Generals answering a FC
:28:10. > :28:13.chill question. He was Wading into it. The first duty of the Government
:28:14. > :28:16.is to protect the people. Therefore I would be concerned if they didn't.
:28:17. > :28:21.Can you remember the original question, is he being bullies is the
:28:22. > :28:25.point? There are a lot of things, as you have just seen, that I don't
:28:26. > :28:29.like about Jeremy Corbyn's views but the bow I think was absolutely fine.
:28:30. > :28:33.I saw the bow, I didn't think there was any problem with it. This week,
:28:34. > :28:38.we have heard people saying is he going to kneel in front of the
:28:39. > :28:43.Queen, is that disrespectful, I went in front of the Queen a few years
:28:44. > :28:50.ago, I never thought in my life as a child I would ever get to meet the
:28:51. > :28:54.Queen never mind join the Privy Council, I almost fainted by seeing
:28:55. > :28:58.her. If someone wants to show that respect in a different way it
:28:59. > :29:04.doesn't matter as long as they are respectful. A lot of things I don't
:29:05. > :29:10.like about him but he's respectful. The woman at the very back? I don't
:29:11. > :29:15.think I say this very often but I whole heartedly agree with Richard
:29:16. > :29:20.Dawkins in what he said about the Sun headline being scandalous and
:29:21. > :29:29.shameful. I found it disingenuous to hear Stig trying to defend the
:29:30. > :29:38.position around the Sun. You in yellow with the hat on? If you are
:29:39. > :29:42.going back to disrespect, during the actual proceedings, David Cameron
:29:43. > :29:47.had a poppy photo-shopped on to him earlier in the day and Boris Johnson
:29:48. > :29:52.was caught talking during the minutes' silence. Both those things
:29:53. > :29:56.were widely reported. It wasn't widely reported in the same way that
:29:57. > :30:01.you widely reported Jeremy Corbyn, what a nasty person he is. It's a
:30:02. > :30:04.horrible way to treat a person and it's not just the Sun, it's a great
:30:05. > :30:10.many of the national newspapers having a go at him. While I'm
:30:11. > :30:16.speaking, shut up, right. APPLAUSE
:30:17. > :30:24.I don't think you can tell a panel member to shut up, but finish your
:30:25. > :30:29.point. It is not just the Sun, it is the whole Murdoch empire that has
:30:30. > :30:33.taken against Jeremy Corbyn. It is unfair and it is bullying. If it
:30:34. > :30:39.happened in the street, you would be arrested. Again, you say the
:30:40. > :30:43.criticism comes from the Sun, but it came from people in his own party,
:30:44. > :30:49.from people watching the TV. We reported what people said. On
:30:50. > :30:53.Wednesday we had David Cameron mocked up as a jelly on the front
:30:54. > :30:59.page. One of the things the Sun does is try to capture where the debate
:31:00. > :31:03.is. When it came to Cameron, it is not a plot about Corbyn. We think
:31:04. > :31:08.Cameron's position on the EU is ridiculous. On tax credits, we think
:31:09. > :31:13.the Tory party have shamed themselves as a party in their
:31:14. > :31:17.stance. While we do report on things in a colourful way, we picked up on
:31:18. > :31:19.what people were saying, people in his party and people watching on
:31:20. > :31:28.television. APPLAUSE
:31:29. > :31:32.Carol Hawkins, please. With council budgets cutting social care and
:31:33. > :31:40.A's struggling, will the NHS fail this winter? We heard it is not
:31:41. > :31:44.achieving its targets. Sajid Javid. No, it won't. It is going to be
:31:45. > :31:51.difficult. It has been from any winters now. It will certainly be
:31:52. > :31:54.challenging. The NHS is one of the most difficult organisations to run,
:31:55. > :31:58.no matter who is in power. But the one way to make sure it can deal
:31:59. > :32:03.with these challenges, not just winter, but the growing challenge of
:32:04. > :32:06.an ageing population, more and more medicine and treatments that we want
:32:07. > :32:11.the NHS to provide and we all want it to stay what it is, a world-class
:32:12. > :32:16.service, free at the point of use. We will only do that if we keep
:32:17. > :32:20.making sure it has enough resources, first of all, and we can only do
:32:21. > :32:29.that if the economy is strong. That is why we are able to commit it will
:32:30. > :32:36.get ?8 billion extra every year. Why does it have a deficit of 1 billion
:32:37. > :32:41.this year? Does not. NHS Trusts have an overall deficit of 1 billion.
:32:42. > :32:47.Some might have deficits, somewhat have surpluses. It would -- or is
:32:48. > :32:51.will be challenging. There is not a financial problem as long as we keep
:32:52. > :32:57.the economy strong. This feedback into, if you keep the economy strong
:32:58. > :33:00.and prioritise the NHS, you have to make difficult decisions elsewhere.
:33:01. > :33:07.That is what we have done and that is what will keep the NHS strong.
:33:08. > :33:10.What are you talking about? The NHS was created when Britain had no
:33:11. > :33:15.money. We had just been at war and everybody decided to pull together.
:33:16. > :33:22.It is absolute nonsense. There is -- there was a report last year which
:33:23. > :33:25.rated Britain's health care top out of 11 western countries. At the
:33:26. > :33:28.bottom came the US. There are countries like Canada and
:33:29. > :33:33.Switzerland in there and we came out the best. There is money, we just
:33:34. > :33:37.need to put it in and make sure it is run properly. The NHS is the best
:33:38. > :33:41.thing we have in this country. To say we don't have the money and we
:33:42. > :33:48.have to focus on the economy, we need to focus on the NHS. The money
:33:49. > :33:54.is there if we want it. I said we prioritise the NHS. How? We only
:33:55. > :33:58.have the money if we keep the economy strong. That is why we are
:33:59. > :34:00.the only party at the election that signed up to the Simon Stevens plan
:34:01. > :34:07.to find efficiencies and keep putting money in. What do you mean
:34:08. > :34:13.by finding efficiency? Further adding privatisation. You are
:34:14. > :34:18.running it down. Standards are going down. Simon Stevens says the quid
:34:19. > :34:23.pro quo of the 8 billion put in was that you find ?22 billion of
:34:24. > :34:29.savings. Are you finding those with A levels missing their target,
:34:30. > :34:33.5000 patients in beds who should be discharged, ambulances missing their
:34:34. > :34:38.targets? It doesn't sound as though it is working. I am the first to
:34:39. > :34:43.accept the NHS has challenges. Of course it does. When you are trying
:34:44. > :34:46.to have an organisation with over 2 million employees that is trying to
:34:47. > :34:50.offer a service free at the point of use, it will. We have a growing
:34:51. > :34:55.population, greater need all the time. There is no government that
:34:56. > :34:59.has not had issues with the NHS, but one thing I do know is required is
:35:00. > :35:02.that it needs more money each year and you will only have that if you
:35:03. > :35:10.have a strong economy. APPLAUSE Schlein I thought I wasn't
:35:11. > :35:16.going to talk tonight but when you mentioned the NHS, it upsets me. I
:35:17. > :35:21.work in the NHS and it is cut upon cut upon cut. I never see any money
:35:22. > :35:25.coming in. Everyday I go to work it is about cutting something having
:35:26. > :35:29.higher targets. It is unbelievable, the amount of stress in the NHS.
:35:30. > :35:41.Most people I work with cannot wait to leave. The woman in yellow. Reed
:35:42. > :35:45.you confidently said the NHS is not going to have a crisis this winter,
:35:46. > :35:51.so what do you think about Jeremy Hunt having lost touch with 45,000
:35:52. > :36:03.junior doctors? APPLAUSE
:36:04. > :36:07.The NHS is in a terrible crisis. It is the 2nd year on the run and it is
:36:08. > :36:12.over budget by ?1 billion in the first quarter. Ambulance targets are
:36:13. > :36:19.being missed, A units are missing targets. 111 is just a joke. There
:36:20. > :36:23.is a problem with the NHS and it is a long-term problem, a structural
:36:24. > :36:29.problem. It is too big, there are too many managers.
:36:30. > :36:38.APPLAUSE Hold on. Under Labour, between 97,
:36:39. > :36:43.and 2010, the NHS budget troubles. But the number of managers grew
:36:44. > :36:58.within the NHS by 58%. -- the NHS budget troubles. There are 50,000
:36:59. > :37:03.not qualified to in the NHS. -- there are 50,000 people who work for
:37:04. > :37:07.the NHS who are on over ?100,000 a year. Is it the porters, the nurses,
:37:08. > :37:10.the ambulance to arrive is it the porters, the nurses, the ambulance
:37:11. > :37:15.to rivals? Of course not. And the PFI deals are saddling the NHS with
:37:16. > :37:24.a debt of ?2 billion every year. APPLAUSE
:37:25. > :37:31.I am a social worker in a Children's Hospital local and every day I work
:37:32. > :37:37.alongside health, care, education. My son is a police Sergeant and my
:37:38. > :37:39.daughter-in-law is a teacher. This government are decimating our public
:37:40. > :37:45.services. APPLAUSE
:37:46. > :37:49.It is about time you realised what your government is doing. Do you
:37:50. > :37:57.know that in Staffordshire there is a two-year wait for a paediatric
:37:58. > :38:05.assessment? Children waiting two years under your government. It is
:38:06. > :38:10.shameful. You have made comments in the past that you would like more of
:38:11. > :38:13.the NHS privatised. Actually, I don't think most people in this
:38:14. > :38:19.audience and this country do want to see the NHS privatised. I am going
:38:20. > :38:23.to finish. The reason we are top of that league table in terms of health
:38:24. > :38:28.care and the US is at the bottom and we are not in a breaking bad
:38:29. > :38:32.situation is because we have nationalised health care. So you --
:38:33. > :38:38.would you like to make clear your position on privatising the NHS?
:38:39. > :38:41.What I was talking about specifically is procurement. In some
:38:42. > :38:48.cases you have the NHS paying over 30 times the cost for drugs. How is
:38:49. > :38:52.privatisation going to help that? I thought it might be a good idea to
:38:53. > :38:57.bring in a private company to get bang for our buck in this area. The
:38:58. > :39:02.bigger problem is that we are allowing over 300,000 people into
:39:03. > :39:06.this country every year. You cannot plan for an NHS when there are too
:39:07. > :39:09.many people in the country. Shame on you. We would not have an NHS
:39:10. > :39:17.without doctors coming from different countries. We should be
:39:18. > :39:23.training up our own. Shame on you, Paul.
:39:24. > :39:28.I would like to agree with the audience and not Paul Nuttall. The
:39:29. > :39:31.first thing to say is my husband is an Accident Emergency doctor, so I
:39:32. > :39:37.live and breathe what is happening in the NHS. He will tell you, as he
:39:38. > :39:42.tells me, that the NHS is absolutely on the brink of crisis. Sajid Javid,
:39:43. > :39:47.you are being very brave to suggest we are not going to have a crisis
:39:48. > :39:50.this winter. The reason we did not have that kind of traditional crisis
:39:51. > :39:54.in the last couple of winters is because we had very mild weather. My
:39:55. > :39:59.husband will tell you that it is when things get cold that things get
:40:00. > :40:05.really difficult. Why do we have such a crisis in the NHS? It is not
:40:06. > :40:09.straightforward. First of all, the resources are not there. Sajid Javid
:40:10. > :40:12.said the government have pledged 8 billion, but they have not seen a
:40:13. > :40:18.penny of that yet and we are some way off getting that money. The
:40:19. > :40:21.really big challenge for accident, emergency and hospital care at the
:40:22. > :40:24.moment is the huge numbers of elderly patients coming in who
:40:25. > :40:29.should be being looked after at home and in the community. But we have
:40:30. > :40:35.seen an absolute decimation of social care in this country.
:40:36. > :40:39.APPLAUSE As David Cameron himself is now
:40:40. > :40:43.admitting, the cuts to local government are having a devastating
:40:44. > :40:48.effect. The problem just goes elsewhere, and it is moving to
:40:49. > :40:51.front-line National Health Service. We have also seen top-down
:40:52. > :40:54.reorganisation of the NHS which we did not need to see, which has now
:40:55. > :41:01.put competition at the heart of the NHS. For example, the tender in
:41:02. > :41:03.Greater Manchester for the Ambulance Service, the patient transport
:41:04. > :41:09.service, had to go out to competition. It was awarded by some
:41:10. > :41:12.narrow measure to a bus company. That company has now had to pull out
:41:13. > :41:17.of the operation because they fiddled the numbers and got bonuses
:41:18. > :41:21.they should not have got. We had a terrible bus company running the
:41:22. > :41:25.ambience was there. Going to the broader point, when we were going
:41:26. > :41:29.through the election campaign, my memory is that Labour was proposing
:41:30. > :41:34.less extra money for the NHS than the Conservatives.
:41:35. > :41:42.APPLAUSE No. We were proposing a cash
:41:43. > :41:48.injection of 2.5 billion this year. What about each year? And we
:41:49. > :41:53.proposed resources to social care. You have proposed, and we have yet
:41:54. > :41:56.to see the money, and Simon Stevens, head of the National Health Service,
:41:57. > :42:00.called you up on this. You proposed 8 billion by the end of this
:42:01. > :42:04.Parliament, in five years, and you have yet to say where that will come
:42:05. > :42:09.from. That does not help the deaf is it the NHS faces now and does not
:42:10. > :42:18.help the crisis the NHS is facing. It is made up money. Why did Labour
:42:19. > :42:26.cut NHS spending in Wales? APPLAUSE
:42:27. > :42:32.You know as well as I do that the budget agreement in Wales is all
:42:33. > :42:36.about devolved budgets and there are different issues. I am incredibly
:42:37. > :42:42.proud of what the Labour Party did in 13 years of government, which was
:42:43. > :42:49.bring the NHS back from its knees and created a world-class service.
:42:50. > :42:54.You ask anyone who works in it. And what the Conservative government are
:42:55. > :42:59.doing now, with junior doctors, just speaks absolute volumes. They have
:43:00. > :43:10.no respect for the people on the front line. There are voices raised
:43:11. > :43:20.against that. Everywhere is in debt from the last government through PFI
:43:21. > :43:26.deals. Ridiculous. Two people in the very back. The woman first. I am a
:43:27. > :43:29.local GP and the reason I am jumping up and down is that I do not know
:43:30. > :43:35.how Sajid Javid can talk about resource into the NHS. General
:43:36. > :43:41.Practice Committee which delivers 90% of NHS care, now does so on 8%
:43:42. > :43:46.of the budget, which is a 20% disinvestment over the last five
:43:47. > :43:50.years. As a result, we are now absolutely on our knees. In our
:43:51. > :43:54.local paper today is a local practice that looks after 12,000
:43:55. > :43:58.people, about to close because they have been trying to recruit to
:43:59. > :44:03.replace their GPs that are retiring, and they can't do that. They have
:44:04. > :44:10.been advertising for in excess of a year. Practices are poaching doctors
:44:11. > :44:13.from one another to just survive. Do you have more confidence in Paul
:44:14. > :44:17.Nuttall's version of how things should be done, or Lucy Powell? Or
:44:18. > :44:23.do you have no confidence in anybody? Nobody ever holds the
:44:24. > :44:28.providers to account. Private companies come in with the lowest
:44:29. > :44:35.bid. When you pay peanuts, unfortunately, you get monkeys.
:44:36. > :44:40.APPLAUSE There are hundreds of people across
:44:41. > :44:45.this country facing their future without a GP. The problem has been
:44:46. > :44:50.animated by this conversation. The NHS, which was an idea of the Labour
:44:51. > :44:51.Party, is too big an issue to be given to politicians to squabble
:44:52. > :45:00.over. APPLAUSE
:45:01. > :45:04.The NHS has a 30 year problem, as we get older, live longer, have more
:45:05. > :45:08.illnesses that require treatment. It cannot be solved in an electoral
:45:09. > :45:13.cycle, by Health Secretary 's who are there for one or two years with
:45:14. > :45:15.an eye on the next job, it cannot be solved by people squabbling over who
:45:16. > :45:21.they think could give more than another. It needs somebody to say
:45:22. > :45:24.this is an existential crisis for something we feel strongly about in
:45:25. > :45:30.this country. It needs to be a cross party effort to say, we need 30 or
:45:31. > :45:34.40 billion, let's find the right figure and get an agreement to spend
:45:35. > :45:42.it and find ways to stop wasting it. APPLAUSE
:45:43. > :45:50.Can you seriously imagine parties agreeing on the huge amount... No, I
:45:51. > :45:54.can't. It means taxation levels and spending levels? I can't imagine it
:45:55. > :45:58.but there is a moment in which we have to look at, is it worth people
:45:59. > :46:02.arguing about who said they would give more to the NHS or not. Or is
:46:03. > :46:09.the argument for the next 30 years when pop laces are going to live
:46:10. > :46:14.until 100, 120, one in three diagnosese of diabetes, this is an
:46:15. > :46:17.extestential crisis and politicians may not agree, but not to treat it
:46:18. > :46:23.as a football to kick around would be a very good beginning.
:46:24. > :46:28.APPLAUSE You? Briefly if you would. Can I back up
:46:29. > :46:32.the point that the GP made. There is a real crisis, I've a daughter who's
:46:33. > :46:37.a junior doctor, a son who will be a doctor, they are not going to be
:46:38. > :46:41.saying in this country to work under those circumstances. On the 8th
:46:42. > :46:44.December there'll be a strike unlest Jeremy Hunt...
:46:45. > :46:50.APPLAUSE And you on the right there? I'm
:46:51. > :46:54.really worried about this mantra, keep the economy strong - that the
:46:55. > :46:57.Government uses because we hear it continually, we have heard it about
:46:58. > :47:01.Tax Credit cuts and the Health Service, we hear it about education
:47:02. > :47:05.and I feel it's a way of the Government distancing itself from
:47:06. > :47:10.the consequences of the cuts that it's making and its policies. We
:47:11. > :47:14.have heard recently David Cameron himself wasn't fully aware or
:47:15. > :47:18.appreciative of the problems within his own locality, his own council
:47:19. > :47:24.and what they were struggling with. And somehow you have got to
:47:25. > :47:30.understand what your policies are causing people to suffer in their
:47:31. > :47:38.lives today. APPLAUSE
:47:39. > :47:44.I understand what the lady is saying and politicians don't say we'll keep
:47:45. > :47:47.the economy strong because they are obsessed by the economy and that is
:47:48. > :47:51.it. If we don't have a strong economy, we don't have jobs for our
:47:52. > :47:54.young people, we don't have jobs for anyone, we don't have growth, we
:47:55. > :47:58.don't have opportunities, we won't be able to raise the taxes that are
:47:59. > :48:02.required to pay for the schools to pay for the nice, to pay for the
:48:03. > :48:05.defence of our country, to pay for welfare for vulnerable people. That
:48:06. > :48:10.all requires money. And that means a strong economy. That means you've
:48:11. > :48:13.got to be competitive. You've got to have low taxes, low regular laying,
:48:14. > :48:17.you have got to trade with the rest of the world, there's no way out of
:48:18. > :48:22.that. Countries who've tried it have ended up like Greece and what's
:48:23. > :48:28.happened with Greece's NHS? APPLAUSE It trickles down. The man
:48:29. > :48:38.with the yellow handkerchief in his pocket? Does anyone know the cost of
:48:39. > :48:43.building hospitals. PFI. ?445 million under PFI we have been
:48:44. > :48:48.charged ?2.7 billion. All the PFI contracts aparts from one were put
:48:49. > :48:52.in during the Labour administration, a total of ?11. 8 million, the cost
:48:53. > :48:57.of buildings, ?79 billion to be paid back. The contracts should be
:48:58. > :49:02.renegotiated. There must be some obscure EU regular laces because we
:49:03. > :49:07.are enabled to do it. And they were all Labour... The
:49:08. > :49:12.woman waving her hand in the second from back row? You say that you are
:49:13. > :49:17.going to start putting ?8 billion into the NHS every year which hasn't
:49:18. > :49:20.happened yet, but one of the big problems in the mace is lack of
:49:21. > :49:23.staffing and there are so many things you are doing at the moment
:49:24. > :49:28.that is going to decrease that staffing. You want to decrease
:49:29. > :49:32.immigration which the NHS gets a lot of skilled workers from the EU to
:49:33. > :49:38.work in the NHS and without them we wouldn't be able to be there. The
:49:39. > :49:41.junior contracts are pushing junior doctors away, there's been a
:49:42. > :49:45.decrease in medical school applications this year and an
:49:46. > :49:49.increase in junior doctors wanting to work abroad. I'm a medical
:49:50. > :49:55.student and I don't want to stay in England if these plans go through.
:49:56. > :49:59.What did you say? She's getting trained by us, by our taxes and now
:50:00. > :50:06.she's saying she doesn't want to work in this country.
:50:07. > :50:11.APPLAUSE All right. I think you will find she's probably in about ?50,000
:50:12. > :50:18.worth of debt once she finishes. APPLAUSE
:50:19. > :50:21.We are obviously deep into the NHS and cuts and somebody was talking
:50:22. > :50:25.about the state of the combhi so I just want to keep on that topic but
:50:26. > :50:31.with a different question from Rachel Taylor, please?
:50:32. > :50:35.Can we really afford to send ?500 million to help with the migration
:50:36. > :50:39.crisis when there are so many cut backs happening here?
:50:40. > :50:45.We have been talking about the NHS, the cutbacks and all the rest of it,
:50:46. > :50:50.can we afford to send ?500 million which has been promised to help with
:50:51. > :50:54.the migration crisis, Paul Nuttall? We should be helping with the
:50:55. > :50:58.migration crisis and sending money. I do hope that that cash though will
:50:59. > :51:12.come out of the ?12 billion worth of foreign aid that we send out every
:51:13. > :51:19.single year. Do you approve of the friend aid? I would approve of it in
:51:20. > :51:21.places where there are starving children or there's ebola or the
:51:22. > :51:26.migration problem. I would support that. What I don't support is
:51:27. > :51:30.foreign aid going to countries richer than ourselves. I want you to
:51:31. > :51:35.consider, that's ?235 25 million every single day that leaves these
:51:36. > :51:44.shores. Do you know last night, 100,000 kids had to sleep in hostels
:51:45. > :51:47.in B In the week of Armistice, 8,000 ex-servicemen slept rough last
:51:48. > :51:52.night. Do you know what, that's your taxation. That should be spent here
:51:53. > :52:00.in our country on our people, on our transport network, on our schools
:52:01. > :52:07.and on the NHS. Stig Abell? Do you want to come in
:52:08. > :52:11.on this, I heard you say "well said"? Speak your mind? I honestly
:52:12. > :52:16.believe we are spending too much on foreign aid. I do believe that we
:52:17. > :52:19.have to pay for the migrant crisis, especially the people coming from
:52:20. > :52:23.Sir yarks but we also have to realise the amount of pressure it's
:52:24. > :52:28.putting on our country on all Public Services, not just the Health
:52:29. > :52:33.Service, it's the policing, the benefits system, you name it and
:52:34. > :52:44.it's putting pressure on this vast amount of people. -- coming from
:52:45. > :52:49.Syria. If we got rid of tremendous dent we'd have ?167 billion which
:52:50. > :52:51.would be... APPLAUSE
:52:52. > :52:57.And we'd be unsafe. It would be like Ukraine. Keep me in false eye lashes
:52:58. > :53:02.for a bit. Do I think that we are giving too much money - we are a
:53:03. > :53:07.really rich country. In the light of the cutbacks? I know, but it's this
:53:08. > :53:11.idea isn't it, you know, that like there aren't enough council houses,
:53:12. > :53:16.you know and that people shouldn't be allowed to buy the council
:53:17. > :53:19.houses. I'm quite for that, we just need to build more council houses.
:53:20. > :53:24.The thing is, it's not a case of should we or shouldn't we give aid
:53:25. > :53:43.to other countries. Take it from the rich people, your friends, or the
:53:44. > :53:53.people who're Getting let off from being taxed. We took what we wanted,
:53:54. > :53:56.split up the land and everything and were built on colonialism. So we are
:53:57. > :54:00.now going to say you can't have anything back. You in the middle?
:54:01. > :54:05.The terms of foreign aid, we need to act to spend more. There are crises
:54:06. > :54:09.going on constantly around the world not getting national attention.
:54:10. > :54:13.There is plenty of money that yes OK isn't going to work, probably should
:54:14. > :54:19.go, to say get rid of Trident is going to give us a massive national
:54:20. > :54:23.security error in this country. We have massive terrorist threats going
:54:24. > :54:29.on and you want to disrupt the one process that's keeping us safe, it's
:54:30. > :54:33.preposterous and stupid. How is it keeping us safe?
:54:34. > :54:37.Stig? Nobody objects to the notion of foreign aid, we are a wealthy
:54:38. > :54:43.country, we have to have our responsibility as part of a
:54:44. > :54:48.globalised world to help people. No-one in their right mind would
:54:49. > :54:56.ever question that. They'd question how we've arrived at an arbitrary
:54:57. > :55:00.figure. It has to be ?12 billion, which is 0.7%. That means you have
:55:01. > :55:03.to find things to spend money on at the end of your budget so you are
:55:04. > :55:08.not responding to crises or spending the money where it's needed, you are
:55:09. > :55:12.trying to make a balance sheet work, which is an appalling way to deal
:55:13. > :55:16.with humanitarian issues around the world. If you are sitting there as
:55:17. > :55:21.Chancellor of the Exchequer now, you have a commitment to the 0.7%
:55:22. > :55:25.because your parties agree it. If you don't have that, you are sitting
:55:26. > :55:30.there with the Chancellor, you have all the problems with the welfare
:55:31. > :55:37.and NHS... You should be expected to prioritise. You can even say, we'll
:55:38. > :55:42.have a maximum of 0.7%, but we'll prioritise against that. When facing
:55:43. > :55:46.cry says, when people are sleeping rough, we may move that number. You
:55:47. > :55:50.are binding yourself to an arbitrary figure. If that meant ?12 billion
:55:51. > :55:54.was spent beautifully wisely and saved desperate people in the world,
:55:55. > :55:57.that would be a great thing but it actually means accountants get at it
:55:58. > :56:01.and say, at the end of the year we make sure we spend it and quick fix
:56:02. > :56:09.things because that's where the money can go.
:56:10. > :56:13.Lucy Powell? Look, what these issues are always are, is very emittive.
:56:14. > :56:18.What are the two main principles that should guide you about how you
:56:19. > :56:21.spend Government money within the envelope that you have available to
:56:22. > :56:25.you -- emotive. The first thing is whether it's the right thing to do
:56:26. > :56:29.for the country or not, whether it's the right thing to do, the second
:56:30. > :56:33.thing is whether in the long run it helps you save money and deal with
:56:34. > :56:38.other problems that may come up the track. In the case of foreign aid, I
:56:39. > :56:42.think it meets both those requirements because, not only is it
:56:43. > :56:45.the right thing to do, but in the long run it will help deal with
:56:46. > :56:49.people wanting the leave the country. No-one wants to leave their
:56:50. > :56:54.home country without good reason and, for many of the people who're
:56:55. > :56:58.now travelling in terrible circumstances half way around the
:56:59. > :57:01.world with their small children in really dangerous circumstances,
:57:02. > :57:06.they're dog so because they are living in fear of where they are
:57:07. > :57:10.living and they are living in terrible war and terrible
:57:11. > :57:17.circumstances -- they are doing so. We should be taking action as a
:57:18. > :57:21.country to try and help persuade those people to stay in their home
:57:22. > :57:26.countries or settle themselves there. I'm going to have to stop you
:57:27. > :57:33.because I'm coming to tend and I want to bring Sa individual Javid
:57:34. > :57:38.in? We are a proud nation. We have a responsibility to help the most
:57:39. > :57:45.desperate people in the world -- coming to the end.
:57:46. > :57:49.APPLAUSE The Syrian refugees are exceptionally desperate right now
:57:50. > :57:52.and it's right we provide them with shelter, food medicine. If we don't
:57:53. > :57:57.help there, this could be a problem on our doorstep, a much bigger
:57:58. > :58:00.issue, so it's both moral and practical.
:58:01. > :58:07.APPLAUSE I'm sorry to say, time's up.
:58:08. > :58:12.That was quick. It was quick. It always goes quick. We can't do
:58:13. > :58:17.extra time. You are in Belfast next week, you can come there. Manchester
:58:18. > :58:25.the week after that. The details are on the screen on how to apply. Next
:58:26. > :58:30.week in Belfast, we have Theresa Villiers, Peter Hain and the
:58:31. > :58:34.comedian and writer Rory Maguire, the week after that we are in
:58:35. > :58:38.Manchester. If you want to come to Belfast or Manchester, go to the
:58:39. > :58:44.website or call the number. This debate carries on on Five Live. My
:58:45. > :58:48.talks to the panel and to all of you who came to take part in
:58:49. > :58:56.Stoke-on-Trent. From all of us here, good night.