:00:00. > :00:18.Welcome, whether you're watching or listening, to our audience here,
:00:19. > :00:22.Conservative Cabinet Office Minister, and former Chief of Staff
:00:23. > :00:28.Ken Livingstone, once Mayor of London, now back on Labour's
:00:29. > :00:33.front-line, overseeing the party's Defence Review, including Trident.
:00:34. > :00:36.Kate Andrews of the think-tank originally founded
:00:37. > :00:39.to support Margaret Thatcher, the Adam Smith Institute.
:00:40. > :00:42.The comedian who worked for Labour under Tony Blair and tore up
:00:43. > :00:47.his party card when Jeremy Corbyn was elected, Matt Forde.
:00:48. > :00:53.And Pete Wishart, SNP MP since 2001 - one of only two MPs to
:00:54. > :01:00.The usual prize for anyone who can name the other.
:01:01. > :01:18.If you want to text or tweet, our hashtag is #BBCQT.
:01:19. > :01:21.Text comments to 83981, and press the Red Button to see what
:01:22. > :01:35.Our first question, please. Will bombing IS making us feel any safer?
:01:36. > :01:41.Ken Livingstone? Simple fact is, everybody in the military will tell
:01:42. > :01:45.you you can't defeat Isis by bombing, you have to have troops on
:01:46. > :01:48.the ground. This looks like a gesture, immediately after the Prime
:01:49. > :01:53.Minister finished today saying there were about 70,000 fighters ready to
:01:54. > :01:58.move in and attack Isis, the Americans were putting out that it
:01:59. > :02:03.is only half that number. Let's not get confused here. The alternative
:02:04. > :02:08.to al-Assad is not a group of nice, young Liberal Democrats, there are
:02:09. > :02:11.other quite fanatical groups and horrendous in much of the things
:02:12. > :02:16.they have done as well. We have to learn from the mistakes of Iraq and
:02:17. > :02:19.Afghanistan. I want to see Isis defeated, not just because they are
:02:20. > :02:23.a threat to us, but what they do to the people under their control. You
:02:24. > :02:27.have to have a strategy. Going in there and bombing, we have to get a
:02:28. > :02:31.big coalition - it is good to see Russia and Iran are being brought in
:02:32. > :02:36.after decades of being at loggerheads with America. It needs
:02:37. > :02:40.to be wider than that. It is not just in the Middle East. Half of
:02:41. > :02:45.northern Nigeria have Islamist terror groups, half of Mali, in
:02:46. > :02:48.Libya, all our interventions have discredited us. If it is seen to be
:02:49. > :02:53.Britain and America, and France, it will be looking like here is the
:02:54. > :02:57.West looking after its own interest. We need to get China and India on
:02:58. > :02:59.board, so it is the world standing up against something of pure evil.
:03:00. > :03:14.Matthew Hancock? What is clear is that Isil are a danger to this
:03:15. > :03:22.country and to Britain. And I don't think that the choice is whether or
:03:23. > :03:28.not to tackle Isil, because they are already killing British citizens and
:03:29. > :03:33.they are already attacking Britain. And attempting terrorist atrocities
:03:34. > :03:36.here. You share that with Ken Livingstone, who just said the same
:03:37. > :03:39.thing, except he wants it done in a different way? The real choice,
:03:40. > :03:45.David, the real choice is not whether or not to take on Isil, the
:03:46. > :03:49.real choice is whether we take on Isil now, in their heartlands, in
:03:50. > :03:54.Syria, where they are plotting these attacks, or whether we wait and take
:03:55. > :03:58.them on on the streets of Britain later. I think we must not wait.
:03:59. > :04:12.Pete Wishart? There is no lack of nations in the air bombing Syria
:04:13. > :04:16.right now. 12 nations are engaged in bombing that nation now and they are
:04:17. > :04:20.bombing from planes, from drones, from warships. There are a variety
:04:21. > :04:23.of different means which all this ordnance is being delivered. The
:04:24. > :04:27.question that we have to look at - will they assist the situation in
:04:28. > :04:34.Syria by getting involved in all of this? We have seen the incident this
:04:35. > :04:43.week, where a Russian jet was downed by Turkish militia. To believe that
:04:44. > :04:46.a further round of bombing will resolve anything, I think is very
:04:47. > :04:49.naive and I think it is something that we have to consider very
:04:50. > :04:56.carefully before we go down this course of action. The SNP will be
:04:57. > :05:01.voting against this in any circumstance? We will listen to the
:05:02. > :05:03.case, and very carefully to the Prime Minister, but we have not
:05:04. > :05:07.heard anything that convinces us that this will be a good course of
:05:08. > :05:11.action. What we are looking for is some sort of solution. Until we hear
:05:12. > :05:15.there is a plan for reconstruction, that there is a means towards peace
:05:16. > :05:18.and reconciliation in that country, I don't believe getting further
:05:19. > :05:23.involved in military action will make any real difference. The woman
:05:24. > :05:27.on the right? The backlash from Iraq was quite severe. What is to suggest
:05:28. > :05:34.the backlash from Syria wouldn't be the same? Matt Forde? Ken is right,
:05:35. > :05:37.we need to learn the lessons of Iraq. There is a real danger we are
:05:38. > :05:40.learning the wrong lessons. There are some people that would like to
:05:41. > :05:44.question Britain's role in the world. Whatever the rights and
:05:45. > :05:48.wrongs of Iraq, and the problem with Iraq was intelligence and post-war
:05:49. > :05:53.planning, things that the people at the heart of that decision have
:05:54. > :05:57.accepted we were deeply at fault. My fear is, people say Iraq is an
:05:58. > :06:00.excuse for Britain not to stand up and to walk by on the other side of
:06:01. > :06:04.the road when people in Syria are being slaughtered, when people in
:06:05. > :06:12.Iraq are being slaughtered. I don't want to be part of a country that
:06:13. > :06:16.with the tools that we have at our disposal to allow Syria to burn
:06:17. > :06:20.while we sit here because the left is paralysed because of Iraq. It is
:06:21. > :06:24.a major problem for the Labour Party. Iraq has caused deep scars,
:06:25. > :06:27.but don't use it as an excuse for Britain to retreat when we are a
:06:28. > :06:42.responsible global actor. Yes, you, Sir? I think the seeds of
:06:43. > :06:47.this was sown in the 1990s and now we are reaping the rewards.
:06:48. > :06:52.Everybody from that time onwards have lived in a war-torn area...
:06:53. > :06:57.What is your view about the bombing? The bombing? I think we should be
:06:58. > :07:03.doing it. I'm with Ken up to a point. What I'm saying is, boots on
:07:04. > :07:09.the ground, I'm also with that. But we have managed over about eight or
:07:10. > :07:14.nine administrations to decimate our Armed Forces, where we can hardly
:07:15. > :07:18.look after our own country. Maybe we should start by weeding out the
:07:19. > :07:23.people in this country, detaining them and let's get the weeds out
:07:24. > :07:27.before we take the head. Alright. There are a number of hands up. I
:07:28. > :07:33.will come to you after we have heard from Kate Andrews. No, bombing is
:07:34. > :07:36.not going to make us safer and not because the Prime Minister is
:07:37. > :07:39.actually committed to defeating Isil. Arguing we need to send air
:07:40. > :07:43.strikes over and then in the same speech saying but that won't be
:07:44. > :07:48.enough, but boots on the ground probably will be necessary, it is
:07:49. > :07:52.not a long-term strategic plan to defeat Isil and it needs to be
:07:53. > :07:57.defeated. This is not Iraq. Saddam Hussein was not an immediate threat
:07:58. > :07:59.to British citizens. Isil is. It's already killed over 30 British
:08:00. > :08:03.citizens. It's killed your neighbours. They are killing and
:08:04. > :08:08.slaughtering their own people in masses and torturing them in awful
:08:09. > :08:14.ways and if Britain is serious about defeating Isil, they will work with
:08:15. > :08:17.the countries that Ken suggests, and countries all over the world, to
:08:18. > :08:20.form a strategic plan. The Prime Minister is not committed to that.
:08:21. > :08:22.If he is not willing to commit to that, we cannot send those bombs
:08:23. > :08:26.over there. That is what the United States said a few years back when
:08:27. > :08:32.Obama said that red line, we sent some bombs over, it destabilised the
:08:33. > :08:41.region and that helped Isil grow. Matthew Hancock? On this, the shadow
:08:42. > :08:45.of Iraq looms large over this. I was against the Iraq War. I didn't think
:08:46. > :08:52.that it would help with tackling terrorism. I'm in favour of action
:08:53. > :09:01.now because that terrorism is clearly coming from and organised in
:09:02. > :09:05.Syria. The diplomatic solution and the humanitarian solution are both
:09:06. > :09:09.absolutely vital, and we have made progress on those. The talks in
:09:10. > :09:13.Vienna are moving forward, as Ken said there's more people from around
:09:14. > :09:19.the world involved. And the UN Security Council has passed a
:09:20. > :09:27.resolution saying that all necessary force is OK to use. But this is
:09:28. > :09:32.different from Iraq. This is about directly tackling terrorist threats
:09:33. > :09:36.that we know can harm us here because they have tried seven times
:09:37. > :09:45.in the past year and they have just succeeded in Paris. We have to take
:09:46. > :09:49.that action. Here in Manchester, and in London, during the Second World
:09:50. > :09:53.War, we were bombed night after night, in London some nights, 500
:09:54. > :09:58.people were killed. My mum got up every morning and went to work in
:09:59. > :10:02.the munitions factories. If you are going to defeat Isil, you have to
:10:03. > :10:08.have tens of thousands of troops on the ground. Look what happened with
:10:09. > :10:13.that awful mistake of the Americans bombing the hospital. How many more
:10:14. > :10:17.fanatics did that recruit for Isil? Bombing is too indiscriminate. You
:10:18. > :10:23.need troops there... British troops? As part of a broad coalition, yes.
:10:24. > :10:33.And with UN backing. We can't be America's poodle again. I'm sick and
:10:34. > :10:37.tired... I'm sick and tired... I watched Tony Blair do whatever
:10:38. > :10:41.George Bush wanted. Our Prime Minister should be defending our
:10:42. > :10:44.interests and that means a broad coalition. If you can't get China
:10:45. > :10:49.and India on board, it will be seen as the West after the huge oil
:10:50. > :10:53.industry. You want a large army of a large number of countries... Backed
:10:54. > :10:58.by the UN. And with the British Army there? Yes. We saw last week the UN
:10:59. > :11:02.vote unanimously in the Security Council in favour of action and this
:11:03. > :11:09.point about oil that we sometimes get from people on the left, Syria
:11:10. > :11:13.is the 60th largest producer of oil. It hardly has any relative to other
:11:14. > :11:18.places. We are already taking action in Iraq to tackle terrorism. But we
:11:19. > :11:25.can't, we have to stop at this border that Isil don't recognise. He
:11:26. > :11:32.is saying he would have boots on the ground. Boots on the ground, in a
:11:33. > :11:37.combat role, would complicate what is a difficult situation. But there
:11:38. > :11:43.are troops there that are ready to do it. 250,000 people have been
:11:44. > :11:46.killed in Syria. 11 million people are homeless. It's the biggest
:11:47. > :11:50.refugee crisis we have seen in modern time. Do we believe that a
:11:51. > :11:53.bombing mission is going to improve the situation for ordinary Syrians?
:11:54. > :11:58.This is the question we have to ask. What would make the situation in
:11:59. > :12:01.Syria better? Being the 13th nation engaged in the bombing campaign, I
:12:02. > :12:05.suggest isn't going to make that situation any better. We need a
:12:06. > :12:12.diplomatic solution. That is the way to do it, to bring stabt. -- t
:12:13. > :12:16.stability. I will come to members of the audience. Are you going to get
:12:17. > :12:20.the votes, do you think? In the House of Commons? I think there was
:12:21. > :12:25.progress made today in the House of Commons. How many Labour voters are
:12:26. > :12:30.going to support you? We are talking to Labour MPs, we are giving them
:12:31. > :12:33.the security briefing... And the question is, is the House of Commons
:12:34. > :12:39.going to support it? That was the question I asked! Yes. Like you,
:12:40. > :12:43.nobody knows until we have the vote, but we are not going to have a vote
:12:44. > :12:46.until we are confident that there is enough. I think it is perfectly
:12:47. > :12:51.reasonable. Ken Livingstone, what is going to happen in the Labour Party
:12:52. > :12:55.because tonight we hear the majority of the Shadow Cabinet are going to
:12:56. > :12:58.vote yes to bombing and the leader of the Labour Party is saying no and
:12:59. > :13:02.they are going to meet and talk about it. What is going to happen or
:13:03. > :13:05.is Labour going to fall apart? I don't think Labour will fall apart.
:13:06. > :13:09.We have to decide whether we have a line, or whether we will have a free
:13:10. > :13:14.vote. The simple fact is, that although the Shadow Cabinet has
:13:15. > :13:17.quite a strong support for bombing, I suspect the Parliamentary Labour
:13:18. > :13:22.Party is much more divided on that and over this weekend, MPs will go
:13:23. > :13:25.back to their constituents, they will be listening to what people say
:13:26. > :13:29.and I think they will find there is a lot less support out there amongst
:13:30. > :13:32.the public for simply bombing than there might be in Parliament. I
:13:33. > :13:36.mean, there will be a Shadow Cabinet meeting on Monday to decide what to
:13:37. > :13:40.do. Until then, I can't predict the future. If I was there, I'd say
:13:41. > :13:44.bombing on its own isn't enough, we shouldn't get caught up in that
:13:45. > :13:49.again. I remember when Tony Blair was told by the security services if
:13:50. > :13:53.you go into Iraq, we will be a target for terrorism. He ignored
:13:54. > :13:59.that advice and it killed 52 Londoners. We need to be clear... I
:14:00. > :14:03.want to see on the ground the capacity to defend ourselves and in
:14:04. > :14:08.London, we have seen thousands of police taken off the streets and
:14:09. > :14:14.that's crucial in finding out who is at risk. Come back for a moment to
:14:15. > :14:19.politics. If the senior members of the Shadow Cabinet, who have let it
:14:20. > :14:24.be known today that they are in favour of bombing, are against the
:14:25. > :14:26.line that's taken on Monday or the line pursued by the leader of the
:14:27. > :14:32.Labour Party, you have a clear conflict. What should they do?
:14:33. > :14:37.Resign? This isn't the Tony Blair era where everybody has to follow a
:14:38. > :14:40.line. The good thing about Jeremy Corbyn - he is allowing an open
:14:41. > :14:46.debate and he accepts the fact that people have different views. I mean,
:14:47. > :14:49.we didn't benefit... Does he? Everyone had to be in line on
:14:50. > :14:52.everything with Tony Blair. You can't force people to vote to kill
:14:53. > :14:57.other people. Or not to vote to kill them. This must be a matter in which
:14:58. > :15:02.people have the freedom to express their own views. So it will be a
:15:03. > :15:10.free vote? I suspect it will be. I can't promise. You predict a free
:15:11. > :15:14.vote? Party unity is some sort of problem. The public expect major
:15:15. > :15:17.political parties to get behind their leader and they expect a
:15:18. > :15:20.leader to lead. The left seem to be the only group of people that have a
:15:21. > :15:24.problem with people having charisma or any sense of direction when they
:15:25. > :15:28.are in a leadership role. This idea that you can absolve the people that
:15:29. > :15:33.killed those innocent Londoners by blaming it on Tony Blair is
:15:34. > :15:45.shameful. Blame it on the people who carried out the atrocities.
:15:46. > :15:51.Accept the propaganda of the terrorists then? They took
:15:52. > :15:55.Londoners' lives in protest. Excuse me, we were lied to by Tony Blair
:15:56. > :16:01.about Iraq, there were no weapons of mass destruction.
:16:02. > :16:04.APPLAUSE I'm not defending intelligence. It's
:16:05. > :16:10.very important to be clear. The lies of Tony Blair, whatever they may be,
:16:11. > :16:15.will never ever absolve the terrorists. But you have just
:16:16. > :16:21.brought those two things together and suggested... If we hadn't
:16:22. > :16:27.invaded Iraq, those four men wouldn't have gone out and killed 52
:16:28. > :16:28.Londoners. I think you are accepting the excuses.
:16:29. > :16:32.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:16:33. > :16:37.Hold on, everybody. The argument Ken is making is that he is letting Isil
:16:38. > :16:43.off the hook. No. These are grown men going out on to the streets, who
:16:44. > :16:47.are killing innocent people. We should not give them excuses. I want
:16:48. > :16:51.to come back to the question originally asked whether bombing
:16:52. > :16:55.Isis really makes us any safer. I'll go to some members of the audience.
:16:56. > :16:59.The woman up there at the back? Can I just say that when you first
:17:00. > :17:04.started this, your opening statement, I think it was completely
:17:05. > :17:09.irresponsible and fear-mongering, the way you spoke about Isil. Isil
:17:10. > :17:13.are currently operating on the idea that fear is what will perpetuate
:17:14. > :17:18.their power and when you are on TV in front of million, you reinvest
:17:19. > :17:23.that fear. We know Paris was bad, we know people are upset about it, of
:17:24. > :17:27.course it's an emotive subject but coming on telly and speaking like
:17:28. > :17:30.that is completely irresponsible. What do you think he should have
:17:31. > :17:36.said? Answered the question, as opposed to saying that stuff like,
:17:37. > :17:39.we either fight it now or in the future, it's ridiculous, answer the
:17:40. > :17:43.questions, because you are fear-mongering, it's not getting us
:17:44. > :17:49.anywhere. The man in the front? Thank you. I think that I find
:17:50. > :17:54.myself in a really strange position where I'm actually finding myself
:17:55. > :17:56.agreeing with Ken. LAUGHTER
:17:57. > :18:00.We have to realise this is never going to be sorted around the table.
:18:01. > :18:06.Isil are not willing to negotiate with anybody. It's just not going to
:18:07. > :18:16.happen. So you want an army like Ken does? Unfortunately, I think it's
:18:17. > :18:20.the only solution. You, Sir? Considering what's happening to the
:18:21. > :18:24.minority groups like the Christians and the Yazdis there which can only
:18:25. > :18:29.be described as genocide, how does bombing help them get out of these
:18:30. > :18:33.situations, could they not send a force to free them, bring them over
:18:34. > :18:37.and help them rebuild their lives? So your view is that the bombing is
:18:38. > :18:41.inadequate in effect? Yes, indiscriminate. It doesn't difficult
:18:42. > :18:47.renovate between who we are trying to save and kill. We'll come back to
:18:48. > :18:50.that point. That's precisely the reason the UK can improve on the
:18:51. > :18:55.campaign that's already happening. Why should we get involved, not only
:18:56. > :18:58.because there are terrorists threats against us that we can directly
:18:59. > :19:02.respond to, but also because some of the equipment that we have is more
:19:03. > :19:08.targeted than anybody else has around the world so we can have a
:19:09. > :19:13.more targeted campaign. Crucially, there are boots on the ground, there
:19:14. > :19:17.are Kurdish boots, there is the Free Syrian Army and they can't do it
:19:18. > :19:21.without Air Support and we can provide that. What is Britain going
:19:22. > :19:26.to do when the bombing stops? Exactly. If we send those bombs in
:19:27. > :19:30.there, we are partially responsible for whatever happens to the region.
:19:31. > :19:36.That happened in Afghanistan,s Iraq and no-one was fully committed to
:19:37. > :19:40.what it was going to take. If that further destabilises Syria, are you
:19:41. > :19:46.or the PM going to be committed to going in and helping those people
:19:47. > :19:50.whatever necessary? This is precisely why we need the strategy
:19:51. > :19:55.that's been set out, including the diplomatic solution, including the
:19:56. > :19:59.process in Vienna and, including today the ?1 billion we have set
:20:00. > :20:03.aside for humanitarian relief and for helping Syrian people get home
:20:04. > :20:05.afterwards. The Prime Minister's set out a short-term strategy, there is
:20:06. > :20:09.no long-term strategy yet. Once that's there, I think most people
:20:10. > :20:13.around this panel are actually pretty much on board. What about the
:20:14. > :20:16.Prime Minister's argument that if our allies are there doing this and
:20:17. > :20:19.if the French are there and want us there, we should for that reason do
:20:20. > :20:24.it because allies should stick together? If the allies want us
:20:25. > :20:29.there, they'll sit down at the table and come up with the long-term
:20:30. > :20:32.strategy. Britain shouldn't rely on their word that we'll be there
:20:33. > :20:34.together and retract together. They have to sit down and work it out
:20:35. > :20:38.together. The woman at the very back? I want
:20:39. > :20:41.to come back, before Matt said about the strength of our democracy and
:20:42. > :20:46.that being something great about the UK, I think it's sad that actually
:20:47. > :20:50.there's been very little discussion about any political strategy or
:20:51. > :20:53.anything wider than just bombing a nation. I just think that's really
:20:54. > :20:57.sad. I actually don't think in terms of
:20:58. > :21:00.what the solution is, it would be difficult to get there, most people
:21:01. > :21:04.are of the view that we should have boots on the ground. In my view,
:21:05. > :21:11.Britain should play a role in that because we are on the whole
:21:12. > :21:14.responsible. Sierra Leone was a positive intervention, as was Kosovo
:21:15. > :21:18.and most people would accept that. You need to clearly defeat Isis and
:21:19. > :21:23.move to a position where you get rid of Assad. In terms of how much the
:21:24. > :21:28.public are prepared to stomach, and this is incumbent on all of us in
:21:29. > :21:32.this room and those that aren't politicians, once Britain gets
:21:33. > :21:35.involved, to put pressure on to bring troops home is the biggest
:21:36. > :21:40.pressure. We should be prepared to say, if we go in, we are prepared to
:21:41. > :21:47.stay for a generation or longer, we need to think about how we rebuild
:21:48. > :21:51.these nations in the future. Let me take a question from Stephen
:21:52. > :21:56.Chadwick, please? Could the shooting of the Russian jet lead to World War
:21:57. > :22:01.three? And this is something that a number of people have raised in the
:22:02. > :22:08.backs of people's minds? Who'd like to go on that? There is a worrying
:22:09. > :22:12.escalation and everyone was very distressed at the images we saw when
:22:13. > :22:16.that actually happened. This goes back to the tension between what
:22:17. > :22:20.happens between the allies and the congested areas we have over Syria
:22:21. > :22:25.-- airs we have over Syria. I think that the way this has been escalated
:22:26. > :22:29.and the United Nations getting involved in trying to cool the
:22:30. > :22:35.tempers in making sure the heat is taken out of this is an appropriate
:22:36. > :22:37.intervention today. It's supposed to demonstrate just how intemperate
:22:38. > :22:42.this could be and take rows we could be when we get into these
:22:43. > :22:48.situations, we face the tensions coming out. It's unacceptable for
:22:49. > :23:00.Turkey to shoot down a plane which wasn't targeting Turkey. The
:23:01. > :23:05.question was whether this could escalate to a World War? It won't
:23:06. > :23:09.escalate to World War because there'll be huge pressure on the
:23:10. > :23:15.Turkish government to stop doing such stupid things. Matthew do you
:23:16. > :23:20.agree with Ken? Well... It won't blight your career. I haven't
:23:21. > :23:25.actually done that very often in my life, but it's clearly a very
:23:26. > :23:32.complex situation, I mean there is no doubt about that. But that
:23:33. > :23:41.doesn't take away from the fact that there are atrocities that we can
:23:42. > :23:44.help to stop by taking action with British airplanes and I'm absolutely
:23:45. > :23:48.sure that we can manage the relationship with Russia in doing
:23:49. > :23:54.that. I'll take a couple more points. The woman there and then you
:23:55. > :23:57.up there? Just joining the two points together, this focus on air
:23:58. > :24:00.strikes and us getting into World War three because we are all
:24:01. > :24:04.conflicting with each other, would it not be easier to look at the
:24:05. > :24:08.widespread of Isis and tackling it in the countries and then going in
:24:09. > :24:12.together rather than all deciding what we are all going to do with the
:24:13. > :24:16.separate air strikes and we are all going to strike each other down,
:24:17. > :24:20.shouldn't we be looking at members of Isis who aren't in Syria because
:24:21. > :24:24.bombing Syria isn't going to stop those people uprising?
:24:25. > :24:30.APPLAUSE You, Sir? It seems to me that this
:24:31. > :24:33.is not a World War III, more like a new Cold War. There is a fundamental
:24:34. > :24:37.difference between the western ideals and the ideals of some of
:24:38. > :24:41.these Islamist terrorists. And the only way we are going to do that is
:24:42. > :24:44.through strong leadership with countries like America where they
:24:45. > :24:47.seem to have the weakest President they've ever had, countries like
:24:48. > :24:50.Britain where we don't have a Prime Minister looking for it and we have
:24:51. > :24:54.the clowns leading the Labour Party and the only country that seems to
:24:55. > :24:57.be taking any role is Russia and, for some reason, nobody else is
:24:58. > :25:08.doing that and Russia is dictating the terms.
:25:09. > :25:12.APPLAUSE Very briefly? This talk of World War III speaks to the young
:25:13. > :25:16.woman's points about how that is real fear-mongering. We disagree
:25:17. > :25:21.about the previous point. I think that talking about the horrors of
:25:22. > :25:25.Isil and the immediate threat which is very important to be honest
:25:26. > :25:28.about. Speaking about World War III is incredibly traumatic. Nobody
:25:29. > :25:33.thinks that is going to happen, everybody thinking coming to the
:25:34. > :25:37.negotiating table is a possibility. Turkey absolutely acted too quickly
:25:38. > :25:42.in haste, but that goes to show how scared people are so we do need to
:25:43. > :25:45.be walking this fine line of not fear-mongering but talking truly
:25:46. > :25:50.about what is going on out there because things are escalating, but
:25:51. > :25:53.not to World War III. That is why strong leadership is so important.
:25:54. > :25:56.If you retract from the global stage, the idea that everything
:25:57. > :26:02.carries on and is peaceful is nonsense. People like Vladimir Putin
:26:03. > :26:07.whose priority until recently in Syria hasn't been to try to remove
:26:08. > :26:12.Isil, it's been to try to reinforce Assad based on an outdated
:26:13. > :26:17.patriotism of motherhood Russia, it's berserk. That is why the world
:26:18. > :26:23.has to be vocal. All this silly talk of bombs and military action, I was
:26:24. > :26:28.particularly surprised at that fella there talking about bombing and
:26:29. > :26:33.military action. Which fella? That chap there, Mr Livingstone. But what
:26:34. > :26:38.really surprising me is, the real issue is looking after this nation
:26:39. > :26:43.here, not looking after it over there, it's safeguarding this nation
:26:44. > :26:49.here. The terrorists that struck in France were living in France.
:26:50. > :26:52.Legitimately. So they're living here within us, never mind wasting
:26:53. > :26:57.millions and millions of pounds trying to bomb somebody that you are
:26:58. > :27:00.never going to kill anyway and risk thousands of British lives, pull the
:27:01. > :27:03.draw bridge up at Calais and look after the British people.
:27:04. > :27:11.APPLAUSE OK.
:27:12. > :27:15.We have had half the programme discussing that and before we go to
:27:16. > :27:21.the next question, so you know, we are in Birmingham next week and in
:27:22. > :27:29.Bath the week after that. The details details Of how to come to
:27:30. > :27:34.that are on the screen and we'll repeat them at the end of the
:27:35. > :27:39.programme. Sally Wheatman? Does the U-turn on Tax Credits mark the end
:27:40. > :27:43.of austerity does the panel think? Does this mean all that business
:27:44. > :27:48.about austerity was unnecessary because he's now given it all back
:27:49. > :27:51.to us. Kate Andrews? No, it doesn't. More people define austerity as
:27:52. > :27:57.closing the deficit and he's going to continue to do that. The
:27:58. > :28:05.Chancellor has really lucked out. He's found an extra ?27 billion
:28:06. > :28:09.between lower interest on the debt and other means. He's five years too
:28:10. > :28:13.late sticking to the deficit but in this new Parliament he's managed to
:28:14. > :28:17.stick to the projections, as well as cut back on all of the spending cuts
:28:18. > :28:23.he's going to make. I'm very pleased to see that he's made this U-turn.
:28:24. > :28:28.Fur going to have a welfare system, the last welfare you want to cut is
:28:29. > :28:37.one that incentivises work and brings money into people's pockets.
:28:38. > :28:42.-- if you are going to have a welfare system. So do you think what
:28:43. > :28:48.he said in July is suddenly not true in November. Oh dear, the police can
:28:49. > :28:52.have the money after all and... I'm not fully convinced a that the
:28:53. > :28:57.office of budget responsibility has found this money, I don't think they
:28:58. > :29:00.are lying, they tend to be honest, but he's gambling, he's assuming
:29:01. > :29:04.he'll get more tax revenue in and he's assuming this interest will
:29:05. > :29:10.remain low. So it could be reversed in a year's time if things go wrong?
:29:11. > :29:15.The projections suggest it won't be fully reversed, but if things go
:29:16. > :29:18.sour, say if there were another crash, we'd be looking at another
:29:19. > :29:22.budget and that's an interesting and important point, that one of the big
:29:23. > :29:26.problems with this Chancellor is like he continues to do a budget by
:29:27. > :29:29.budget year to year analysis of where Britain's at and he also won't
:29:30. > :29:34.plan for the long-term. This seems to be a very common theme, there is
:29:35. > :29:38.no planning for the long-term. How do you plan for the long-term? Well,
:29:39. > :29:42.you put real investment where it matters, you put money back into
:29:43. > :29:45.people's pockets, ensure that growth continues to go up. I would have
:29:46. > :29:50.preferred to see the extra money he got go to taking the low-paid out of
:29:51. > :29:53.tax, go to removing the national insurance that the low-paid still
:29:54. > :29:56.put into the system and I think that would have been better for the
:29:57. > :30:01.country. He hasn't done that, he's committed to more and more spending
:30:02. > :30:07.and a lot of it is arbitrary. Somebody is saying "mm" on my left
:30:08. > :30:12.and I don't know who it is. It's probably you? Two things,
:30:13. > :30:15.George Osborne didn't U-turn out of idealogy, he U-turned because the
:30:16. > :30:21.Lord's humiliated him first and foremost. That's not fair. The
:30:22. > :30:25.second thing here is that at a time when the Labour Party's drifting to
:30:26. > :30:29.the left, David Cameron made the wonderful speech in the summer
:30:30. > :30:34.claiming they were going to occupy the centre ground. That U-turn
:30:35. > :30:37.fundamentally challenges the view that the Tories are the centre
:30:38. > :30:41.ground to attack working class Tories who believe work should pay
:30:42. > :30:45.more than benefits shows that at the heart of George Osborne, despite
:30:46. > :30:48.being a fairly canny political operator are deep, deep problems
:30:49. > :30:50.with his analysis and deep, deep problems with the sort of country
:30:51. > :30:59.he's trying to create. Matthew Hancock, if he meant what he
:31:00. > :31:05.says about reducing the deficit as soon as possible, and fixing the
:31:06. > :31:08.roof and all that, and he he's offered this money that they say is
:31:09. > :31:12.now available because of interest rates being low, and all the rest of
:31:13. > :31:17.it, more tax coming in. Surely the sensible thing for the Chancellor to
:31:18. > :31:21.have done would be not to reverse his decision, as he was saying, but
:31:22. > :31:28.actually to put the money in the Kitty and say we have paid some off
:31:29. > :31:32.some of our national debt? He says on the basis of the House of Lords
:31:33. > :31:36.and the clear political embarrassment you were suffering. If
:31:37. > :31:44.he was true to the beliefs that he had set out, wouldn't he have said
:31:45. > :31:50.there we are, we have got some more more money, I will give it against
:31:51. > :31:57.the debt? When you get more money, it is a perfectly reasonable thing
:31:58. > :32:02.to do, it is perfectly reasonable - and you get ?27 million! I don't
:32:03. > :32:05.know about that. The BBC pays well. It is perfectly reasonable that you
:32:06. > :32:10.put some of it towards paying down debts. Invest some of it in
:32:11. > :32:18.infrastructure, in the long-term, and he did some of that, as Kate was
:32:19. > :32:21.calling for. And used some of it to ameliorate some of the more
:32:22. > :32:25.difficult decisions. The end point is the same. We said in the
:32:26. > :32:28.manifesto that we'd save ?12 billion off welfare. It is important that
:32:29. > :32:32.welfare is fair to the people who pay for it, as well as the people
:32:33. > :32:37.who need it. We said we would have a country that lives within its means,
:32:38. > :32:41.protect the economic security of working people, and, crucially,
:32:42. > :32:46.tackle the deficit and get rid of it so - I don't think it is fair to
:32:47. > :32:49.leave to our children and our children's children more debts than
:32:50. > :32:57.they could possibly afford to pay off. Alright. Ken Livingstone? I
:32:58. > :33:02.don't often agree with the Adam Smith Institute. You say that all
:33:03. > :33:06.the time! It is just get this budget through, have a nice budget before
:33:07. > :33:09.the election, and when the election is out of the way we claw it back.
:33:10. > :33:14.The tragedy is, for 35 years, we haven't had a long-term strategy. We
:33:15. > :33:19.should have invested in modernising our manufacturing, like Germany did.
:33:20. > :33:23.We see six million jobs lost - and this is the key. We are running the
:33:24. > :33:27.biggest balance-of-payments deficit in our history. Why? Because half
:33:28. > :33:33.our exports from manufacturing, which is now just a tenth of our
:33:34. > :33:37.economy, and when I see Cameron, we must export more to China. Great.
:33:38. > :33:41.Germany exports five times as much as we do to China because they
:33:42. > :33:45.didn't allow their banks to run their economy, they continued to
:33:46. > :33:53.invest in their manufacturing... They have probably been issued with
:33:54. > :34:00.more little red books than the Conservative Party! I never bothered
:34:01. > :34:06.to read Mao's Little Red Book... You wouldn't have quoted from it. The
:34:07. > :34:10.woman on the right? I think it's got very little to making the deficit
:34:11. > :34:18.smaller, it is far more to me about dismantling the welfare state. I've
:34:19. > :34:22.got... Go on? I have a son with a learning disability. He has no
:34:23. > :34:25.social worker, no care plan, his transport to and from school is
:34:26. > :34:29.threatened, his college place has been withdrawn, I think the reality
:34:30. > :34:33.on the ground for people like us living every day lives is that
:34:34. > :34:36.austerity is devastating, certainly for my son and young people like
:34:37. > :34:39.him, we feel as though he's been written off by Cameron's Government.
:34:40. > :34:54.Do yesterday's announcements make any difference to you? They don't.
:34:55. > :34:58.They are still planning ?12 billion in welfare cuts. They make no
:34:59. > :35:05.difference at all. Our children are amongst the most vulnerable children
:35:06. > :35:08.in the country, I would suggest. Yet Trafford Council have decided they
:35:09. > :35:11.can make their own way to and from school. The reality of these cuts
:35:12. > :35:15.coming down from central government to local government are devastating.
:35:16. > :35:23.I'm not sure Westminster realises that. I will come to you. Do you
:35:24. > :35:28.want to answer her point? Of course, if we don't have a country that can
:35:29. > :35:35.live within its means, then we can't... You are not reducing the
:35:36. > :35:39.deficit, are you? You have just accepted that. It is flannel. It is
:35:40. > :35:43.not flannel to want to deal with the deficit. If we don't have a country
:35:44. > :35:47.that can live within its means, then we can't fund those sorts of public
:35:48. > :35:51.services that people like you rely on. So we pay our taxes but our
:35:52. > :36:01.children can't go to school, is that what you are suggesting? Wait a
:36:02. > :36:05.minute. Let Matthew Hancock finish his point. Listen to him. Yesterday,
:36:06. > :36:09.we increased the education budget, so, of course, it is important that
:36:10. > :36:14.people can go to school and there are more good school places than
:36:15. > :36:17.before we came to office. Crucially, you mentioned the care plan. I
:36:18. > :36:24.agree, that is an important policy. It is a new policy that was brought
:36:25. > :36:29.in when I was in the Education Department, and the central point is
:36:30. > :36:32.this: You can't have a strong economy if you don't take decisions
:36:33. > :36:44.that make sure that we can deal with our debts and get them down... I
:36:45. > :36:53.think you are missing the point about the schools. I would agree
:36:54. > :36:58.with the lady at the back. Austerity is a policy choice. This is a
:36:59. > :37:02.Conservative Government committed to an austerity programme. We are all
:37:03. > :37:06.delighted the tax credits have been withdrawn. They will be clawed back
:37:07. > :37:08.again with what they are doing to Universal Credit and housing
:37:09. > :37:11.benefit. There will still be ?12 billion of welfare cuts down the
:37:12. > :37:16.line. Yesterday's statement wasn't so much smoke and mirrors, and
:37:17. > :37:22.conjuring tricks, it was a meeting of the whole Magic Circle! And we
:37:23. > :37:25.have still got to pay for this. This is a Government that will be
:37:26. > :37:29.determined to drive through their austerity agenda and they do not
:37:30. > :37:36.care less who is hurt on the way as long as they can achieve their
:37:37. > :37:39.objectives. Most people in the public, I think the general public
:37:40. > :37:43.in general find themselves somewhere in the middle with this. We know the
:37:44. > :37:46.deficit has to be tackled. If it isn't paid down, more of our taxes
:37:47. > :37:49.don't go on front-line services, they go on servicing the debt. Most
:37:50. > :37:54.people accept the deficit needs to come down. It is about where you cut
:37:55. > :37:59.and when you cut and who you tax and when you tax. It was an awful
:38:00. > :38:04.mistake - we all agree we have to live within our means. You will
:38:05. > :38:09.burden poor people will debt, they will have to take out themselves to
:38:10. > :38:12.pay their bills. We heard from the lady up there about - I would like
:38:13. > :38:19.to hear from anybody who supports what Matthew Hancock was saying.
:38:20. > :38:23.That's not a joke! You at the back? Well, it seems to me that somebody
:38:24. > :38:26.saying that they can't send their children to school because of
:38:27. > :38:29.austerity, none of your grandchildren will be able to go to
:38:30. > :38:33.school if we don't have austerity. The amount of interest we are paying
:38:34. > :38:37.on the debt now is nearly as high as what we are paying on the military.
:38:38. > :38:43.In 20 years' time, it might be as high as what we are paying on the
:38:44. > :38:46.NHS. It will become a larger and larger proportion of our expenditure
:38:47. > :38:49.each year. If we don't tackle that now, we will always have the
:38:50. > :38:54.consequences of that. You are right, we have to reduce our debt. But we
:38:55. > :38:59.are still the fifth richest nation in the world. And this week, while
:39:00. > :39:03.we are being told we can't afford this and that, Cameron's telling us
:39:04. > :39:12.now those four nuclear submarines will cost ?40 billion. I'd rather
:39:13. > :39:22.our kids had a better education. We have more hospital beds than four
:39:23. > :39:26.nuclear submarines! You can't... I want schools, hospitals and a
:39:27. > :39:34.nuclear deterrent! Maybe that is why we ran up so many debts under
:39:35. > :39:38.Labour! Trident, in terms of the economics... This is the problem.
:39:39. > :39:42.The reason why Britain is a rich country, part of the reason, part of
:39:43. > :39:45.the reason why people come here to set their businesses up, including
:39:46. > :39:50.people in the financial industry, that contributed huge amounts to
:39:51. > :39:53.public spending from '97 to 2007. Part of the reason people are
:39:54. > :39:56.prepared to invest global businesses here is because on the whole we are
:39:57. > :40:00.a secure society. One of the things that keeps us secure and makes us a
:40:01. > :40:04.safe place for business in the end is having a strong military and a
:40:05. > :40:09.nuclear deterrent. To simply take that money from one end and say you
:40:10. > :40:13.save it on nukes so you can spend it on hospital isn't true. Britain will
:40:14. > :40:20.be poorer economically without a nuclear deterrent. Quite right. OK.
:40:21. > :40:26.We will spend five minutes on this other one. Sarah Shaw? About how far
:40:27. > :40:33.the budget will stretch. The NHS can't meet the demands and
:40:34. > :40:38.expectations of our population. The future lies with expensive drugs and
:40:39. > :40:44.technology. Is it inevitable the NHS will become privatised? You are a
:40:45. > :40:49.GP? I am. Is it inevitable? It is privatisation by the back door,
:40:50. > :40:53.increasingly more services are becoming privatised, certainly where
:40:54. > :40:55.I work in Blackpool, there's outsourcing to private companies and
:40:56. > :40:59.it seems that the system we have, the infrastructure we have, can't
:41:00. > :41:04.cope with the demands of the population. Do you approve of the
:41:05. > :41:08.idea that it becomes partly whatever privatised may mean to you, or to
:41:09. > :41:12.the Government, or whoever? Do you approve of the idea of finding a
:41:13. > :41:16.different way of funding the NHS? Yes, I think it can't manage as it
:41:17. > :41:24.is. It's just not feasible that it care -- carries on in the way it is
:41:25. > :41:28.going. Kate Andrews? I discovered that Britain has this culture of
:41:29. > :41:32.providing healthcare to everyone free at the point of use and let me
:41:33. > :41:37.tell you, coming in from a country that still doesn't, that was a
:41:38. > :41:41.wonderful thing to see. I say that because now I'm going to say
:41:42. > :41:46.something a lot tougher, which is that providing everybody with
:41:47. > :41:49.healthcare is crucial, the NHS is wildly out-of-date and it is not
:41:50. > :41:54.able to deal with those burdens anymore and it hasn't been for a
:41:55. > :41:58.long time. And what Britain has seen is a serious drop in the quality of
:41:59. > :42:02.healthcare that it is bringing to its people, it is sub-standard, not
:42:03. > :42:07.compared to America or Singapore, any of those radical systems, but
:42:08. > :42:11.compared to its neighbours, look at Germany, look at Switzerland,
:42:12. > :42:16.France. Nobody would say that these are privatised systems. The NHS does
:42:17. > :42:20.not need to become privatised. The UK and the Government can continue
:42:21. > :42:23.to pay for healthcare and ensure that everybody can afford
:42:24. > :42:27.healthcare, but what it needs to let go of is this idea that the
:42:28. > :42:31.Government is the best system to be the provision of healthcare. Other
:42:32. > :42:35.countries like Germany and France and Switzerland have looked outside
:42:36. > :42:41.of those bureaucrats and said they might be good with the money, but
:42:42. > :42:45.somebody else is better at running my CAT scan. You think central
:42:46. > :42:51.government should pay for it? I think... But let somebody else spend
:42:52. > :42:59.the money. What is the point of that? There is a huge point. In
:43:00. > :43:02.other systems, the government is more involved in paying the
:43:03. > :43:05.providers that give the healthcare. There are lots of different ways we
:43:06. > :43:09.can look at this. The important thing is that everybody has access
:43:10. > :43:12.to that healthcare but that they get to choose where they get it and if
:43:13. > :43:16.you choose where you get it, you tend to get better service and
:43:17. > :43:20.quality. The simple fact is, if we privatise the health system, then
:43:21. > :43:25.the profit that the firm takes out will come by increasing what we have
:43:26. > :43:28.to spend on it. America spends twice as much on healthcare as we do.
:43:29. > :43:32.Nobody said America. I rolled that out. The reason we are not doing as
:43:33. > :43:40.well as Germany and France is we aren't spending as much as Germany
:43:41. > :43:45.and France. That is not true. Japan, Germany and France spend a greater
:43:46. > :43:50.portion of their GDP on their public health than we do. The UK spends
:43:51. > :43:56.less than Germany, France and Switzerland. We are not talking
:43:57. > :44:01.anything wild like America, 2% of their GDP. But regardless of that,
:44:02. > :44:06.the UK is the third least efficient in the OECD for spending its public
:44:07. > :44:09.health care money. You may spend less but you are not spending that
:44:10. > :44:15.money very well. Are you agreeing with her or with him? I'm from
:44:16. > :44:21.Canada, which has a public private co-operative in how we deal with our
:44:22. > :44:28.healthcare. Everyone's happy with it and it is far more efficient than my
:44:29. > :44:31.experience of the NHS here. We have tried this. Tony Blair's Government
:44:32. > :44:34.got the private sector to provide the building of hospitals and we
:44:35. > :44:38.basically rent them. It is costing us four to six times more than if we
:44:39. > :44:44.bought them and done them ourselves. Because it's being done
:44:45. > :44:48.inefficiently. Matt Forde? It is being controlled by the private
:44:49. > :44:52.sector. People need to remember what the NHS means. The principle of the
:44:53. > :44:59.NHS is free at the point of use. If the state gives that money to a
:45:00. > :45:05.private provider, that is positive privatisation and it is still a
:45:06. > :45:16.public service. I think jus tz as -- just as much as you rail against
:45:17. > :45:19.private profit, also you have to be equally conscious of public waste.
:45:20. > :45:24.That is taxpayers' money. It's a criminal waste of cash.
:45:25. > :45:30.The weakness is, it's run from Whitehall. We should devolve our
:45:31. > :45:36.hospitals. The oversight goes to local authorities. People who know
:45:37. > :45:42.their local area. I've watched every minister watch themselves get... The
:45:43. > :45:45.man in the third row? What I think, I think the NHS is fantastic but
:45:46. > :45:49.ultimately it's true that it is facing a large amount of demand. I
:45:50. > :45:54.think currently things like PFI are just winning the NHS off. It's
:45:55. > :46:00.creating a massive financial burden. Ultimately what I would like to see
:46:01. > :46:05.is a low-cost NHS, in many ways. For example, if you go to a GP, why
:46:06. > :46:08.can't you pay ?5, small contributions, not massive costs on
:46:09. > :46:11.the individual because I think they are ultimately paying four your
:46:12. > :46:15.health care in small amounts is not a bad thing but as much as I would
:46:16. > :46:19.like to see it free at the point of use I don't think it's sustainable?
:46:20. > :46:23.I care deeply that the NHS is free at the point of use to everybody
:46:24. > :46:27.according to need and the reason I care deeply about that is because,
:46:28. > :46:32.as a father, if my children have a problem, no matter what time of the
:46:33. > :46:36.day or night, I can take them to the NHS and crucially, everybody else in
:46:37. > :46:40.the country can. And here, I agree with everything that Ken said these
:46:41. > :46:45.last two answers, firstly that PFI has been a serious problem in many
:46:46. > :46:48.hospitals, but also that we can tackle some of these problems by
:46:49. > :46:53.getting people who're closer to the problems on the ground to solve
:46:54. > :46:57.them. Here we are in Manchester and we have just evolved health and
:46:58. > :47:02.crucially social care to Manchester so they can be run locally by a
:47:03. > :47:07.newly elected Mayor and bring the two together so that we can make
:47:08. > :47:12.sure it's as efficient as possible given the increased amount of money
:47:13. > :47:15.that we put in yesterday, ?19 billion more, the biggest ever
:47:16. > :47:21.injection of cash into the NHS. OK.
:47:22. > :47:25.We are devolved when it comes to the administration of our NHS and thank
:47:26. > :47:29.goodness we are. In Scotland? Yes, it's completely devolved. There is
:47:30. > :47:32.no way on earth we'd go down any privatisation route.
:47:33. > :47:39.APPLAUSE To have the suggestion and idea that
:47:40. > :47:48.private companies are working for the best interests of everybody and
:47:49. > :47:53.altruism is nonsense. It's really important we get back to the basics.
:47:54. > :47:57.Nobody thinks that... To ensure that it's free at the point of use, that
:47:58. > :48:02.it remains a service we are immensely proud of. Are you against
:48:03. > :48:07.particular services like scanning that she was talking about being
:48:08. > :48:13.operated by a private company? We have a difficulty with that yes
:48:14. > :48:16.because we believe it should be run by the public sector. It's the
:48:17. > :48:18.public sector that should be administrating. It can't be run more
:48:19. > :48:26.efficiently privately than the public sector? Foundation hospitals,
:48:27. > :48:31.the last Labour Government got into this, we invite the private sector
:48:32. > :48:34.in, and we are left with poisonous legacies which means the buildings
:48:35. > :48:38.are built and we continue to pay for them for decade after decade. That
:48:39. > :48:45.is a legacy of private investment into health education. Private
:48:46. > :48:50.involvement has increased the cost of NHS in Scotland. Of course it
:48:51. > :48:53.hasn't, that is nonsense. What we've done is invested into our Health
:48:54. > :48:58.Service. But there is private involvement. There is in any NHS
:48:59. > :49:03.service. So you would take it all out? Sometimes it's necessary. Would
:49:04. > :49:08.you take it out? We want to make sure we have a publicly run operated
:49:09. > :49:14.Health Service. Sometimes it's necessary to take... Your idealogy
:49:15. > :49:18.leads to substandard results for patients.
:49:19. > :49:24.APPLAUSE Because you are so desperate to say that it has to be
:49:25. > :49:29.public, the private sector cannot be involved on principle, then you look
:49:30. > :49:34.and see that 9,000 more people in jernlny are surviving on cancer than
:49:35. > :49:39.should be in the UK. You see that. Diabetes is terrible, compared to
:49:40. > :49:43.other countries, because our system is not efficient enough. Do you
:49:44. > :49:48.agree with what Kate is saying? I do. Matt's point, he was talking
:49:49. > :49:53.about devolving powers to people who know the Health Service the best and
:49:54. > :49:56.Jeremy Hunt hasn't been listening to junior doctors and all the stuff on
:49:57. > :49:58.the NHS. APPLAUSE
:49:59. > :50:05.You know... Do you want to reply to that? Junior
:50:06. > :50:10.doctors, the key is this, we are trying to move the NHS to one that
:50:11. > :50:21.works every day of the week just as well. Whether it is on a Sunday or
:50:22. > :50:25.on a Thursday night, if you go to an NHS hospital, you want to have the
:50:26. > :50:29.very best care. We know that. Why hasn't he been able to get a deal
:50:30. > :50:36.from the doctors? He's been asking to sit around a table with the BMA
:50:37. > :50:43.for months now and I'm really glad finally they have done it. The woman
:50:44. > :50:47.with the red pullover? In terms of sayings the NHS provides a
:50:48. > :50:52.substandard service, that's because it's not funded properly. There are
:50:53. > :50:55.a lots of very compassionate people working in the NHS and there comes a
:50:56. > :51:00.time... APPLAUSE
:51:01. > :51:04.I've been working in the NHS for a very long time and we provide real
:51:05. > :51:08.compassion, real care for people when we are allowed to.
:51:09. > :51:13.Thank you very much. We seem to have about four or five
:51:14. > :51:16.minutes left. Benjamin Morton, please?
:51:17. > :51:22.What are the long-term consequences of a Conservative Government without
:51:23. > :51:27.opposition? What are the long-term consequences of a Conservative
:51:28. > :51:30.Government without opposition? The consequences are an even longer term
:51:31. > :51:35.Conservative Government without any opposition because the problem with
:51:36. > :51:38.the Labour Party now, I joined the Labour Party when I was 15 and left
:51:39. > :51:44.the day after Jeremy Corbyn became leader...
:51:45. > :51:48.APPLAUSE Well, I don't... I appreciate the
:51:49. > :51:52.support, but it was done with a heavy heart. I care about the Labour
:51:53. > :51:56.Party and centre-left values and I care about making the world a more
:51:57. > :51:59.equal place. But I just feel now that under Jeremy Corbyn's
:52:00. > :52:03.leadershire, only I was struggling under Ed Miliband to be honest,
:52:04. > :52:06.under Jeremy's leadership, it doesn't feel like the home of
:52:07. > :52:11.sensible people that want the entire country to be represented. Ken
:52:12. > :52:14.Livingstone? We have just had a Conservative Government forced to do
:52:15. > :52:17.a huge U-turn on its attack on the welfare state.
:52:18. > :52:21.APPLAUSE That is because Jeremy Corbyn is
:52:22. > :52:25.opposed to what they are doing and frankly, I was campaigning all over
:52:26. > :52:29.the country in marginal seats. On the streets people said to me, what
:52:30. > :52:33.did the last Labour Government do to me and people like you who think
:52:34. > :52:38.Tony Blair was the high point of human ziflisation have got to
:52:39. > :52:44.recognise the reason Jeremy won is there is an anger there, we didn't
:52:45. > :52:47.build homes kids can afford to rent -- civilisation. The rich got richer
:52:48. > :52:53.and richer and everybody else struggled. It's simply not true. For
:52:54. > :52:57.the first time in a very long time under Tony Blair's Government it was
:52:58. > :53:04.the only time in recent history where the gap between rich and poor
:53:05. > :53:08.narrowed. The incomes of the poorest people, there was then the minimum
:53:09. > :53:13.wage. Ken Livingstone's now campaigning for a Blairite policy he
:53:14. > :53:16.apparently hated ten years ago. This is preposterous and the Labour Party
:53:17. > :53:20.sadly will not be in a position to answer people on the doorstep when
:53:21. > :53:24.they say what did the last Labour Government do for me because there
:53:25. > :53:30.went be one for about another 30 years. You must be enjoying this I
:53:31. > :53:36.don't want to intrude, but there is a serious point, you know, lots of
:53:37. > :53:40.people see the current leadership, Labour Leadership as a Jebbing, but
:53:41. > :53:43.I see it as a threat to the economic security of Britain because,
:53:44. > :53:48.actually, I think it's much less likely that the British people will
:53:49. > :53:52.vote for them. I also think if the British people did, it would be such
:53:53. > :54:00.a catastrophe for our country and for everybody in it that it's
:54:01. > :54:05.incumbent on us to deliver. That's what you Saul said about me when I
:54:06. > :54:11.ran for Mayor and four years later Tony Blair said please come back and
:54:12. > :54:15.be our candidate. I thought, coming from the generation I do that the
:54:16. > :54:21.big arguments about how you run a country to make sure it's
:54:22. > :54:25.prosperous, I thought it was settled, but it turns out we have to
:54:26. > :54:30.win the argument for free enterprise and for people to be able to get on
:54:31. > :54:36.and get up, we have to win the arguments all over again. Do you
:54:37. > :54:42.agree? What about 23% of children being in poverty due to your... That
:54:43. > :54:47.number's fallen over the last five years and I'm very proud of it. It
:54:48. > :54:52.hasn't. We should be worried about that. I've never seen the Labour
:54:53. > :54:56.Party descend into unmanageable shambles as it has done. We think
:54:57. > :55:01.every week is the worst week until we get to the next one. This is
:55:02. > :55:05.where we are. What shambles are you describing? What started as a
:55:06. > :55:10.hostile accommodation with the Blairites is an in your face
:55:11. > :55:17.defiance when it comes to the leadership. You should be worried
:55:18. > :55:20.because a Conservative Government, a callous Conservative Government
:55:21. > :55:23.unincumbent by any serious challenge will up the whole Conservative
:55:24. > :55:26.agenda. They'll do it without any care or concern when they know they
:55:27. > :55:31.are not going to be challenged by a laismt What do you suggest Labour
:55:32. > :55:41.should do? Labour has to get their act together, for goodness sake. .
:55:42. > :55:48.Howay? -- but how? It's a little bit rich. I've left the party now. I
:55:49. > :55:52.would describe myself as a moderate. It's rich to be preached unity by
:55:53. > :55:55.Ken Livingstone who, when he didn't get his way, he left the Labour
:55:56. > :56:05.Party and stood against it and defeated it, and people like Jeremy
:56:06. > :56:15.Corbyn who rebelled it. Jeremy was right about not invading Iraq, about
:56:16. > :56:21.the banks. I had disagreements with Tony Blair, but I worked and went
:56:22. > :56:25.out to get him elected. You stood as Mayor against Labour's candidates.
:56:26. > :56:30.Because the Labour Party rigged the ballot.
:56:31. > :56:33.You said you would accept... I got 74,000 votes, Frank Dobson got
:56:34. > :56:38.24,000, they declared him the winner. I remember it clearly, you
:56:39. > :56:43.said you would accept the will of the NEC and when it didn't go your
:56:44. > :56:50.way, you stood against the Labour Party. Matt Hancock and his
:56:51. > :56:55.Conservative Government is unbothered by any opposition which
:56:56. > :56:59.would make them even worse. I agree with Peter that I don't think the
:57:00. > :57:05.Conservative Government is going to go mental any time soon. It's not
:57:06. > :57:10.small, it only takes a few radicals to overthrow whatever the
:57:11. > :57:12.Conservative Party wants to do, but with no opposition, any Government
:57:13. > :57:17.can become complacent and the Labour Party looks like a well-funded
:57:18. > :57:20.think-tank, they are big on idealogy, they are not talking about
:57:21. > :57:25.policy, we need an opposition worthy of the name. Brief point from you,
:57:26. > :57:29.Sir? I think you should be scared of the Labour Party just because they
:57:30. > :57:33.don't want to be led, they want to be listened to. The people want to
:57:34. > :57:38.be listened to, they don't just want to be led. You are not listening.
:57:39. > :57:42.That's what leadership is. Are you saying Labour is or isn't listening?
:57:43. > :57:49.They are listening, yes. They are, so it's what you want? Yes. All
:57:50. > :57:53.right. The woman there? This is time I think I've seen genuine opposition
:57:54. > :57:57.from the Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn is offering a different narrative
:57:58. > :58:00.from everyone else and I think that's why everyone's so scared and
:58:01. > :58:04.getting on his back about it. Are you concerned that so many MPs in
:58:05. > :58:08.the House of Commons appear to be against his lead,ship? For me it is
:58:09. > :58:10.a concern because I think he's very different from what we have seen
:58:11. > :58:16.before and I think they should embrace that and go with him. But
:58:17. > :58:19.they were elected by the public, not a narrowband of true believers, they
:58:20. > :58:24.are reflecting the country truer than what he is. But the voting
:58:25. > :58:29.system is not proportional so I don't think they do represent it.
:58:30. > :58:39.Our time is up, we have to stop, I'm afraid. Question Time next week,
:58:40. > :58:47.Diane Abbott, Nicky Morgan, Caroline Lucas with us next week. The week
:58:48. > :58:52.after next we are in Bath. Get in touch if you want to join us.
:58:53. > :58:56.If you are listening on Five Live, this debate carries on on Question
:58:57. > :59:00.Time extra time. For us, my thanks to the panel here and to all of you
:59:01. > :59:02.who came to Manchester toe take part. From Wythenshawe in
:59:03. > :59:05.Manchester, from Question Time, good night.