:00:07. > :00:21.We're in Birmingham tonight and this is Question Time.
:00:22. > :00:25.And a big welcome to you whether you are watching on television,
:00:26. > :00:29.listening on the radio, to our audience and to our panel. Tonight,
:00:30. > :00:33.the Conservative Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan. Labour's
:00:34. > :00:37.Shadow Secretary of State for International Development, Diane
:00:38. > :00:41.Abbott. The Green Party MP, Caroline Lucas. The writer and forker
:00:42. > :00:47.Director of the Centre for Policy Studies, Jill Kirby and a former
:00:48. > :00:58.Islamist, who campaigns against extremism, Maajid Nawaz.
:00:59. > :01:03.Thank you. Thank you very much. As always if you wish to get involved
:01:04. > :01:18.in the debate. .
:01:19. > :01:26.Gregory Hayes has the first question.
:01:27. > :01:29.Was extending the bombing into ira the right decision? What do you
:01:30. > :01:36.think? I think it was the right decision. I think it is a shame it
:01:37. > :01:40.took this long until the decision was made.
:01:41. > :01:46.Anyone else? I would agree it was the right decision. As we are
:01:47. > :01:50.currently bombing Isis in Iraq it makes little sense to stop at the
:01:51. > :01:58.so-called border which does not really exist anymore. Anybody else?
:01:59. > :02:01.How will we ever know if it was the right decision, when there was
:02:02. > :02:09.clearly no referendum. Anyone else? In the end you have to
:02:10. > :02:12.confront an evil like that, you cannot leave it to grow like a
:02:13. > :02:17.cancer. What about any of you who feel it
:02:18. > :02:22.was the wrong decision? I think that the money should have been better
:02:23. > :02:28.spent on educating our youngsters to not be radicalised by these people.
:02:29. > :02:33.I find that these young people they are being groomed. If it is a young
:02:34. > :02:38.girl and a man, that is grooming. But these kids that are being taken
:02:39. > :02:41.over by religious fundamentalism don't get treated the same way. It
:02:42. > :02:47.is a problem. OK.
:02:48. > :02:53.I think more of a threat is people crossing the border. When there is
:02:54. > :02:58.an E border database, falling down, it makes sense to replace the
:02:59. > :03:03.system, and then tackle the issues in Syria.
:03:04. > :03:09.This is part of a racist back lash after the attacks in Paris. David
:03:10. > :03:15.Cameron's Foreign Affairs Select Committee and heads of Mike have
:03:16. > :03:21.said that this will have no e-David Cameron said we had low collateral
:03:22. > :03:26.missiles in reality that means we hope not to kill that many
:03:27. > :03:30.civilians. Why are people in Syria clam ram damage and people in Paris
:03:31. > :03:36.victims? It is racist. APPLAUSE.
:03:37. > :03:39.You want to have a chance to argue with our panel as we go through the
:03:40. > :03:43.debate. Nicky Morgan, you kick off. You
:03:44. > :03:46.heard what the man at the back was saying.
:03:47. > :03:51.Firstly, I think it was absolutely the right decision taken yesterday.
:03:52. > :03:55.It was a difficult decision for all members of Parliament. Those
:03:56. > :04:00.watching the debate will have seen people on all sides sfrning their
:04:01. > :04:04.conscious as to how to vote. I don't think it was an easy decision for
:04:05. > :04:10.any member of Parliament. The second is to pay tribute
:04:11. > :04:14.whatever we think, to those who are now flying on the air strikes and
:04:15. > :04:18.the pilots doing that and the families, no doubt, who are worrying
:04:19. > :04:24.about them. To answer some of the questions asked. The lady here on
:04:25. > :04:29.educating about radicalisation, she is absolutely right. That is
:04:30. > :04:35.relevant to me as the Education Secretary, we have to do both, to
:04:36. > :04:42.confront the clear danger to our country from Daesh.
:04:43. > :04:47.It is not just to Paris, there have been attacks in Ankara, Beirut,
:04:48. > :04:53.Yemen, the Russian plane blown out of the sky over Egypt. This
:04:54. > :04:57.murderous death cult is a terrorist organisation, it is a danger to
:04:58. > :05:01.people not just in the West but to people around the world it is now
:05:02. > :05:11.time for us to play our part in confronting it.
:05:12. > :05:18.APPLAUSE. Diane Abbott? ? There are different
:05:19. > :05:23.views about this in my party. But I remind the audience, that for the
:05:24. > :05:29.vast majority of Labour Party members, the majority of the MPs and
:05:30. > :05:33.the majority of the Labour Shadow Cabinet believe it was the wrong
:05:34. > :05:36.decision. I say that because I understand in the light of Paris
:05:37. > :05:41.that a lot of people felt something must be done. The question is will
:05:42. > :05:47.the bombing raids on Syria make the British people safer? First of all,
:05:48. > :05:52.as Nicki said we should pay tribute to our armed force, putting their
:05:53. > :05:57.lives in harm's way. We should also think of the people of Syria,
:05:58. > :06:03.waiting in trepidation for the bombing in cities like Raqqa. But we
:06:04. > :06:09.need to remember if bombing was the answer, the US have been bombing
:06:10. > :06:13.Syria for over a year. Isis, the so-called Islamic State is
:06:14. > :06:17.stronger than ever. They have captured cities like
:06:18. > :06:22.palmyra, blown up their monuments, they are stronger than ever. That is
:06:23. > :06:27.because you cannot defeat Isis dropping bombs from hundreds and
:06:28. > :06:33.thousands of feet. One of the things you need is ground troops. Whereas
:06:34. > :06:38.in Iraq, in Iraq you have the Iraqi Army, hundreds of thousands of
:06:39. > :06:47.trained people. In Syria you have Assad and Nicki, and the Tories, are
:06:48. > :06:52.not saying what we are doing about Assad, you have 70,000 people but a
:06:53. > :06:57.raggle-taggle jihadis. I believe it is not a question, people are saying
:06:58. > :07:03.we should do something. We don't want to do nothing, we need to talk
:07:04. > :07:09.to allies like the Saudi and the Gulf States that are sending money
:07:10. > :07:15.and arms to support icy, we have to talk to Turkey, allowing Isis troops
:07:16. > :07:20.to go through its territory. We have the finest diplomatic services in
:07:21. > :07:24.the world, why not do more with the big regional powers and why not do
:07:25. > :07:28.more for the biggest refugee crisis since the Second World War, the
:07:29. > :07:33.Syria refugees, no-one is saying do nothing but the air strikes are the
:07:34. > :07:37.wrong thing. I will be here a year later, the audience will know. We
:07:38. > :07:42.have been warned it is a long war. It will be a further downward spiral
:07:43. > :07:49.of violence in the Middle East. APPLAUSE.
:07:50. > :07:53.Briefly. You mentioned Iraq. You and Jeremy
:07:54. > :07:58.Corbyn voted against the bombing in Iraq. Is it still your position that
:07:59. > :08:04.is also wrong? The original Iraq war? No, against IS in Iraq? IS in
:08:05. > :08:09.Iraq. IS in Iraq is a different situation.
:08:10. > :08:13.The Iraqi government invited us in. It is legal.
:08:14. > :08:18.You voted against the bombing? I think that the answers to the
:08:19. > :08:23.turmoil that we see in the Middle East, is partly some of the work
:08:24. > :08:26.that Quilliam is doing but partly to get the regional powers to step up
:08:27. > :08:32.to the plate. Jeremy Corbyn yesterday would not
:08:33. > :08:36.commit either to supporting air strikes in Iraq nor to continue the
:08:37. > :08:46.air protection over the Kurds. You can say that in action... Nicki...
:08:47. > :08:49.Let me tell you... Let me tell you the question about the Kurds...
:08:50. > :08:53.APPLAUSE The question about the Kurds is
:08:54. > :08:59.quite different. You have brave Kurdish troops there, who are taking
:09:00. > :09:04.ground from Isis. Why not Jeremy Corbyn support the air strikes in
:09:05. > :09:11.the UN intervention? Jeremy Corbyn was... Jeremy Corbyn is the Leader
:09:12. > :09:20.of the Opposition. He was Baracked by your people, deliberately trying
:09:21. > :09:25.to disrupt... Don't Barack her. Do you think it is right to be using
:09:26. > :09:30.British air power in Iraq against IS? It is legal... Do you think it
:09:31. > :09:35.is right? I think that the legality is important. It was legal in
:09:36. > :09:40.September when you voted against it. If it is part of a broader strategy.
:09:41. > :09:44.We need to hear more, then of course it is right.
:09:45. > :09:50.Of course it is right? As part of a broader strategy. The notion that
:09:51. > :09:55.bombing can solve anything didn't work in the ridge mal-Iraq war, nor
:09:56. > :10:00.in Afghanistan and it will not work in Syria.
:10:01. > :10:07.Maajid Nawaz? I understand the trepidation and the hesitation on
:10:08. > :10:13.the panel and nationally. Of course. I opposed the Iraq war from my jail
:10:14. > :10:17.cell in Egypt. I understand the observes vaguses, death is death. It
:10:18. > :10:21.hurts the people as equally. I get that. There are a few principles to
:10:22. > :10:26.establish and set out before the conversation. One of them is that
:10:27. > :10:32.this should not be a left/right debate. Francois Hollande who asked
:10:33. > :10:37.for our support is a socialist. The Kurds who are fighting Isis in Iraq
:10:38. > :10:41.and Syria are left-wing socialists and some of them communists it is
:10:42. > :10:47.important to recognise that there are different opinions from all
:10:48. > :10:50.sides here. That is important so we don't end up polarising the
:10:51. > :10:58.conversation. And to remember that some say that our military action in
:10:59. > :11:06.Syria will lay narrative that this is a war against Islam and Muslims,
:11:07. > :11:10.it can do. But our in addition has aided Isis narrative. It was our
:11:11. > :11:19.inaction in Bosnia, and the genocide that led me to become an Islamist
:11:20. > :11:23.and led me to join the group as I was furious against the genocide
:11:24. > :11:29.been carried out in Europe. I think also we were bombing Iraq
:11:30. > :11:37.anyway, as has been established. It did not make much sense to expand
:11:38. > :11:41.that to Raqqa. Isis, you remember, caliph bag daddy descended from the
:11:42. > :11:45.pup pit to give a public appearance, it was in Mosul, he has not popped
:11:46. > :11:52.up since. The reason is that he is on the run since the bombings. So
:11:53. > :11:57.where have they run to? They have run to Raqqa.
:11:58. > :12:03.It does not make sense they have run to one side that is not policed and
:12:04. > :12:09.then running to the other side. I think finally, that this is legal.
:12:10. > :12:13.The UN has committed us to pursuing all means against Isis. All means
:12:14. > :12:19.does not exclude bombings, so where do I stand? I agree with what Diane
:12:20. > :12:24.said earlier it makes no sense to think we can shoot our way out of
:12:25. > :12:30.the problem. It makes no sense to think we can legislate our way out
:12:31. > :12:35.of the problem an we cannot torture our way out of the problem. What we
:12:36. > :12:40.are dealing with. This is not world war three it is a global jihadist
:12:41. > :12:46.insurgent. The only way to tackle that is to get at their support. To
:12:47. > :12:51.undermine the ideology that they are using to recruit people, the
:12:52. > :12:56.Islamist ideology, that is distinct from the religion of Islam. It is
:12:57. > :13:02.not the same. Undermine that notion, and sapping the appeal. 6,000 or so
:13:03. > :13:05.European citizens have gone to join. How would you have voted in the
:13:06. > :13:12.House of Commons last night? I would have voted for the action.
:13:13. > :13:16.The reason is for the strategy, as the UN motion says, all means, it
:13:17. > :13:20.does not exclude of notions of bombing but bombing is not the
:13:21. > :13:27.solution on its own. Now to the audience. I have to say I
:13:28. > :13:31.agree with Diane. I think, I don't understand how the Government can
:13:32. > :13:39.say that by bombing Syria it will make Britain safer. We are going to
:13:40. > :13:44.isolate more moderate Muslims, leading to greater radicalisation,
:13:45. > :13:48.there are extremists living in all cities across Europe, by bombing
:13:49. > :13:57.Syria we will not remove the ideology into nonexistence. I want
:13:58. > :14:02.to say about what Nicki said about it being a difficult decision, I
:14:03. > :14:07.don't doubt but should the cheering and the lofter following that
:14:08. > :14:11.decision not make the public question the manner in which the MPs
:14:12. > :14:15.are acting. Whatever the decision, surely it is a sombre decision, the
:14:16. > :14:24.decision to bomb people. Jill Kirby? It is a decision to be
:14:25. > :14:28.taken sob Earl. The clapping and the cheering after Hilary Benn had
:14:29. > :14:31.spoken was inappropriate. It was a divided House with Dwyereded
:14:32. > :14:36.parties. It was a difficult decision to make. I personally think it was
:14:37. > :14:44.the wrong decision to make. I would not support it. Mainly as I cannot
:14:45. > :14:48.see the way ahead. Often we have become involved in foreign
:14:49. > :14:53.entanglements not knowing what the exit strategy is or the next step. I
:14:54. > :14:58.have heard of what I term wishful thinking from Government, from the
:14:59. > :15:02.Defence Secretary, from others, from the Foreign Secretary, suggesting it
:15:03. > :15:09.will be very nice, we will make life difficult for Isis in Syria, that
:15:10. > :15:14.they will stop attacking us here, and elsewhere, that the trouble, the
:15:15. > :15:18.fact that we don't support the Assad government out there is not a
:15:19. > :15:24.problem as we are going to manage to support the rebels at the same time
:15:25. > :15:29.as attacking Isis, while Vladimir Putin is arranging to bomb rebels,
:15:30. > :15:35.also attacking Isis, there are factions involved here. I can't see
:15:36. > :15:39.us negotiating through this, with a tidy settlement. David Cameron
:15:40. > :15:43.realises this but I want him to tell us why we have committed to this
:15:44. > :15:48.when we are supposedly going to sit with Vladimir Putin to come to anice
:15:49. > :15:52.agreement, to keep Assad there, and then move him aside it is not a
:15:53. > :16:00.plausible scenario. Therefore, we should not get into it.
:16:01. > :16:06.Some of the points made by the audience and by Jill are the points
:16:07. > :16:10.that were debated in 10.5 hours in the House of Commons yesterday. The
:16:11. > :16:14.point is that there is no certainty about in the office, which is why it
:16:15. > :16:18.was such a difficult decision for members of Parliament to make. But
:16:19. > :16:24.there is a comprehensive strategy, both the military strategy and the
:16:25. > :16:30.political strategy. Does the strategy involved putting troops on
:16:31. > :16:40.the ground in Syria? Not UK. Which troops? Hang on a second. It is
:16:41. > :16:44.about military but it is also about political strategy. You can't skip
:16:45. > :16:51.over it and say that is the ground troops dealt with. It has to be
:16:52. > :16:55.everything. There is a big difference because
:16:56. > :16:59.there are ground troops in Iraq and not in Syria. Time and again
:17:00. > :17:03.yesterday the Prime Minister was challenged about where were the
:17:04. > :17:06.70,000 forces, the mythical forces, the bogus battalions, as the chair
:17:07. > :17:11.of the Defence Select Committee called them, the equivalent of the
:17:12. > :17:14.dodgy dossier. In a sense, they are Justin David Cameron's head. Even if
:17:15. > :17:19.they existed, the idea that they will be willing to give up fighting
:17:20. > :17:26.Assad, their primary focus, to helping us with fighting Eisele, or
:17:27. > :17:31.Daesh, is unsubstantiated. -- Isil. I have not seen anything that has
:17:32. > :17:34.persuaded me that if the UK joins the air strikes over Syria that we
:17:35. > :17:40.will either be safer all make the region safer. Crucially, Maajid said
:17:41. > :17:44.something important, he said we need to undermine the ideology. Yes, we
:17:45. > :17:49.do. I think by entering into the bombing of Isil, we are feeding that
:17:50. > :17:53.ideology. They feed on the idea that we are the kind of Crusader West
:17:54. > :17:58.having this attack and they are the defenders of true Islam. That is
:17:59. > :18:01.what they get popularity from and we are falling precisely into that trap
:18:02. > :18:12.by doing exactly that. APPLAUSE
:18:13. > :18:16.One little fact. A year ago, there were 15,000 recruits from 80
:18:17. > :18:21.countries who had gone to fight with Isis. A year later there are 30,000
:18:22. > :18:24.recruits from 100 countries, so our bombing is feeding that ideology. We
:18:25. > :18:28.are walking into their trap and it is the wrong thing to do.
:18:29. > :18:33.APPLAUSE I would like to go back to the
:18:34. > :18:37.audience. I said at the beginning we have different opinions. We have
:18:38. > :18:41.heard opinions against the bombing from jail and Caroline. I would like
:18:42. > :18:49.to hear from people who have supported the bombing, or still do.
:18:50. > :18:55.You, in the middle. This Great Britain, historically, was built on
:18:56. > :18:59.British spirit to deal with evil around the world. This is the latest
:19:00. > :19:04.challenge to us. We have to stand up and be counted on this. It is only
:19:05. > :19:11.the fact that we are now in a reasonably peaceful stage that
:19:12. > :19:15.people in Parliament have got this kind of pacifying view to do
:19:16. > :19:21.nothing. It's only a luxury. You are going to lose it. We have to stand
:19:22. > :19:27.up and be counted. Where you also in favour of the action Parliament
:19:28. > :19:31.voted on? Can you say why? As negotiation does not seem feasible
:19:32. > :19:34.with these terrorists, I would be interested to know what the panel
:19:35. > :19:41.things we could do in replacement for the bombings, the air strikes.
:19:42. > :19:43.Education alone of UK young people does not actually eliminate the
:19:44. > :19:52.imminent threat of terrorist attacks worldwide. Caroline, your foreign
:19:53. > :19:57.affairs spokesperson said that what Isis feared most of all was peace
:19:58. > :20:01.talks. What did that mean? I don't know when they said that but I want
:20:02. > :20:06.to speak about the fact that when you are saying there is some kind of
:20:07. > :20:11.pacifist mentality, maybe some are driven by that we should look at the
:20:12. > :20:15.fact people like John Baron, one of Nicky Morgan's backbenchers spoke
:20:16. > :20:18.passionately, a front bench select committee Tory, a former military
:20:19. > :20:22.person who served in Northern Ireland. He has come to the
:20:23. > :20:27.conclusion this is not the best way of fighting this evil. Nobody
:20:28. > :20:32.disagrees that Daesh are barbaric murderers. The issue is what is the
:20:33. > :20:34.best way to get rid of them? You have the foreign affairs select
:20:35. > :20:38.committee with a passionate report saying they do not think the case
:20:39. > :20:42.has been made, that reaction. You have the chair of the defence
:20:43. > :20:47.committee, another Conservative, saying the case has not been made.
:20:48. > :20:51.When you talk about what we do, we need to address the Syrian civil war
:20:52. > :20:57.first, because that is creating the chaos which allows Isis to thrive.
:20:58. > :21:01.Let me finish and then you can come in. We need to redouble our efforts
:21:02. > :21:04.with the Vienna peace talks and listen to the experts who gave
:21:05. > :21:07.evidence to the foreign affairs select committee saying that
:21:08. > :21:10.precisely our involvement in bombing Syria is undermining the role
:21:11. > :21:13.Britain could be playing at the peace talks because we were not at
:21:14. > :21:19.that point perceived to be allied with one side. I spend a great deal
:21:20. > :21:23.of my time consumer by this question generally, extremism, and
:21:24. > :21:28.specifically with Isis and Syria. It is factually incorrect, wrong, to
:21:29. > :21:31.say the correlation of the rise of foreign fighters joining Isis is
:21:32. > :21:37.caused by our bombing. The reason is if we go back to when and how Isis
:21:38. > :21:40.was created and emerged, it filled the vacuum that the anti-Assad
:21:41. > :21:44.forces who were fighting against Assad, and I am anti-Assad, it
:21:45. > :21:50.filled the vacuum that was there precisely because we did not
:21:51. > :21:54.intervene. They used the narrative, and I know because I have followed
:21:55. > :21:57.it every day for eight years, they used the narrative that the West
:21:58. > :22:00.does not care about Syrian Muslims, they have abandoned you, we are the
:22:01. > :22:07.only ones fighting for you. That is just true. You can't just assert
:22:08. > :22:14.that it is true. Let me finish, please. We don't know what the
:22:15. > :22:20.scenario is, had we gone in, what would have happened then? I am not
:22:21. > :22:23.saying they don't use our bombing and actions to recruit people, I am
:22:24. > :22:27.saying they use our action and inaction. That is what happens when
:22:28. > :22:31.you do not control the narrative. They have propaganda, they control
:22:32. > :22:35.the narrative. We have not recognised this as an insurgency. If
:22:36. > :22:40.we recognised there is propaganda out there, we seize the initiative.
:22:41. > :22:45.If we don't, they seize the initiative. How would you seize the
:22:46. > :22:50.initiative? Bombing is part of the armoury, not the solution. All of us
:22:51. > :22:53.should recognise there are heroes on the ground, champions who have
:22:54. > :23:00.defeated Isis time and again. They defeated them in northern Iraq, they
:23:01. > :23:04.defeated them in Kobane, and recently when Isis enslaved the
:23:05. > :23:08.women. Who are these champions? Kurdish warriors. There are
:23:09. > :23:11.political reasons why we cannot say that, because our allies in Turkey
:23:12. > :23:16.and the Iraqi government do not want the Kurds to have a state. If the
:23:17. > :23:22.Kurds got a state, it would be a beacon, the Muslim majority secular
:23:23. > :23:26.state in the region, and it would set a great example by the one else.
:23:27. > :23:34.They are defeating Isis as we speak. APPLAUSE
:23:35. > :23:38.So often we talk about Syria, but that Tigger issue a couple of months
:23:39. > :23:43.ago was about the refugees. I would like to ask, we don't hear much
:23:44. > :23:47.about them now. -- the bigger issue. I know the instinct is to want to
:23:48. > :23:49.help refugees, but in made people voted that they did not want
:23:50. > :23:54.immigration in the country, and we saw that by the rise of Ukip and by
:23:55. > :24:00.the policy of the Conservatives, so where do you stand on where the
:24:01. > :24:05.refugees are at the moment? Yes, well I think it illustrates the
:24:06. > :24:07.problem is when you seek to get involved and destabilise regimes
:24:08. > :24:11.without working out what will replace them. This has been a
:24:12. > :24:15.problem throughout our recent foreign policy, because it is fine
:24:16. > :24:18.to get on the side of the revolutionaries, a particular
:24:19. > :24:22.faction who seem more moderate, could be better news than a despotic
:24:23. > :24:27.government, but once you have actually thrown in the match and set
:24:28. > :24:31.light to the whole thing, you then have great movements of people. It
:24:32. > :24:37.is not like the days when the West could move in on an unstable country
:24:38. > :24:41.and say, OK, we will take over here, we will settle in and run it like
:24:42. > :24:47.part of the Empire and ensure that democracy takes charge and everybody
:24:48. > :24:50.has, it is a free country and we impose our laws and Western
:24:51. > :24:54.standards and you live under that and everybody settles down and does
:24:55. > :24:58.as they are told. That model went with the Empire. But if we now move
:24:59. > :25:02.into situations where we really don't know what will replace the
:25:03. > :25:07.current regime, unpleasant though it may be, we end up with shifting
:25:08. > :25:13.people across the world, risking their lives to come to Europe in
:25:14. > :25:19.search of shelter. This is wrong. We have to answer for some of this. It
:25:20. > :25:22.is, Nicky. What is wrong is the fact that you have a Syrian civil war in
:25:23. > :25:26.which 10.5 million people have been displaced from their homes, 4
:25:27. > :25:35.million people have fled the country. 200,000 Muslims have been
:25:36. > :25:43.killed. I voted for action in 2013. Had we removed Assad, what would
:25:44. > :25:47.have been the result? I have no brief for him. He was dropping
:25:48. > :25:53.barrel bombs. But what was the alternative?
:25:54. > :25:56.The alternative has led to the situation we now see where we face a
:25:57. > :26:00.clear and present threat in this country and others. The security
:26:01. > :26:04.services said they had disrupted seven plots in the last year. We
:26:05. > :26:10.have ten times the number of IS plots around the world. We are
:26:11. > :26:14.involved. We have to join, with the international coalition, to deal
:26:15. > :26:21.with this murderous death cult. APPLAUSE
:26:22. > :26:25.I am not clear, Jill, what your prescription is. You, sir. Nobody
:26:26. > :26:30.should go into military action clapping with joy, but we have to
:26:31. > :26:32.learn from history. All of the despots and dictators the world has
:26:33. > :26:38.created have happened because somebody let it. But there are
:26:39. > :26:43.different ways of stopping it than militarily. If the advice is that
:26:44. > :26:48.the military way is not going to work, lets, for example, be
:26:49. > :26:52.encouraging the government in Iraq to reach out to the neglected Sunni
:26:53. > :27:01.minority where Isis is recruiting. Let's do what Diane said. Why are we
:27:02. > :27:09.selling arms to Saudi Arabia which are getting used in places like
:27:10. > :27:12.Yemen? Hilary Benn yesterday said these people were fascists, and the
:27:13. > :27:19.Labour Party has always fought fascism. Was he right to put it like
:27:20. > :27:25.that? I am asking Diane. Whatever you think! He was right as far as it
:27:26. > :27:29.goes, but that was 50 is ago. This is the 21st-century and we are
:27:30. > :27:37.facing global internet based jihadism. It is not as simple. You
:27:38. > :27:41.could smash rack to smithereens, killed tens of thousands of people,
:27:42. > :27:46.but that would not lessen the threat on the streets of Birmingham, Paris
:27:47. > :27:51.or London. We are in the 21st-century. We need a broad
:27:52. > :27:55.strategy. It is so wrong to encourage people to believe that a
:27:56. > :28:01.short, sharp bout of bombing will do with the problems we face. And let
:28:02. > :28:06.me just say this. Let me strike an uncharacteristically conciliatory
:28:07. > :28:10.note. This is not a left, right issue. Some of the best speeches
:28:11. > :28:15.against bombing in the house yesterday were John Baron, a former
:28:16. > :28:18.Army man, Julian Lewis, the chair of the Defence Select Committee. Their
:28:19. > :28:23.point, and it speaks to people saying we have to do something, that
:28:24. > :28:27.in military terms, in military terms what Cameron is suggesting makes no
:28:28. > :28:34.sense, there is no endgame and we could easily get dragged into
:28:35. > :28:40.sending troops into a land war in Syria. You, madam. The first thing I
:28:41. > :28:43.would like to say is I take huge offence to being labelled as a
:28:44. > :28:47.terrorist sympathiser just because...
:28:48. > :28:53.APPLAUSE Just because I have a different
:28:54. > :28:57.approach to this. I personally believe we are pursuing a course of
:28:58. > :29:03.action that has no proven track record of long-term success. And I
:29:04. > :29:07.am looking long-term. You are talking about going in, attacking
:29:08. > :29:11.oil tanks, whatever. I totally agree, Diane, that there are other
:29:12. > :29:16.actions we should be taking. We should be taking a far more divisive
:29:17. > :29:20.hand with Qatar, Kuwait, Turkey, countries that are funnelling money
:29:21. > :29:25.to Isis through donorship, through buying oil, through whatever. It is
:29:26. > :29:29.an uncomfortable truth that needs to be faced, and blanket bombing Syria
:29:30. > :29:35.is not going to solve the problem. APPLAUSE
:29:36. > :29:38.Do you think the Prime Minister should have apologised to talking
:29:39. > :29:42.about a bunch of terrorist sympathisers going through the
:29:43. > :29:49.lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn? What he made very clear in the debate... He
:29:50. > :29:58.did not apologise. Why not? Surely you should say he should apologise.
:29:59. > :30:04.I wasn't at the meeting. Do I look like a terrorist sympathiser to you?
:30:05. > :30:15.No, but Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell do. Nicky has a point. I
:30:16. > :30:20.do not like being called a terrorist sympathiser, however Jeremy Corbyn
:30:21. > :30:24.and John McDonnell have been photographed shaking the hands of
:30:25. > :30:28.Gerry Adams and others and making it quite clear that they will support
:30:29. > :30:34.what certainly I would regard as terrorist factions.
:30:35. > :30:41.Are you saying that the leader of the Labour Party supports terrorism?
:30:42. > :30:47.Is that what you're saying? What I am saying... No! Are you saying
:30:48. > :30:53.that? I have seen him sporting terrorists. I have not seen him
:30:54. > :30:59.recant... Jeremy Corbyn said in June of this year, talking about our
:31:00. > :31:04.friends of Hezbollah. John McDonald talked about the bombs and the
:31:05. > :31:10.bullets and the sacrifices made by the IRA and Ken Livingstone talked
:31:11. > :31:19.about people on 7/7 who gave their lives, what about the people that
:31:20. > :31:25.lost their lives? Exactly, Nicki! These are old smears and they do
:31:26. > :31:28.not... They are not smears, this are direct quotes.
:31:29. > :31:31.They don't detract from the fact that in my view and the view of
:31:32. > :31:37.millions of British people, the House of Commons made the wrong
:31:38. > :31:39.decision yesterday. It is a perfectly honourable decision to
:31:40. > :31:43.have, to vote against the motion. The Prime Minister made that clear.
:31:44. > :31:47.But they are two statements and another that Ken Livingstone made
:31:48. > :31:53.ahen this programme last week. I think people want to hear is a
:31:54. > :31:56.debate on the issues tonight and on the debate that we had for
:31:57. > :32:03.ten-and-a-half hours yesterday. So it is right to call them a
:32:04. > :32:07.terrorist sympathiser but not her? I have made it clear, the Prime
:32:08. > :32:11.Minister made it clear that members who don't support military action
:32:12. > :32:17.were perfectly honourable in holding that view.
:32:18. > :32:23.I would like to bring up a point not discussed yet. One of the reasons we
:32:24. > :32:27.have taken this action is that one of our closest allies, France,
:32:28. > :32:32.pleaded for our support. I was thinking if this happened in London
:32:33. > :32:36.it was our friends, our family, would we not expect the same support
:32:37. > :32:41.from France and how would you feel without that support? The point
:32:42. > :32:47.makes is that what you want is for your friends to do the thing that is
:32:48. > :32:52.effective. If by getting involved in military action, to have a
:32:53. > :32:55.propaganda coup to Isis, that allows them to recruit people, putting more
:32:56. > :32:59.people at risk, I don't think so. But there are many things we can be
:33:00. > :33:04.doing. My answer to France is of course our hearts go out to you. But
:33:05. > :33:08.people caught up in the Bataclan chaos, people from the UK, who
:33:09. > :33:13.themselves have said that they don't want this as a response. They want a
:33:14. > :33:19.response to work. The position we are taking here, Diane and I and
:33:20. > :33:22.Jill is not that we are squeamish about it, is that this is not
:33:23. > :33:31.effective... APPLAUSE.
:33:32. > :33:35.The world's facing possibly the greatest crisis ever, possibly, what
:33:36. > :33:39.about the United Nations, are they no longer relevant? What do you
:33:40. > :33:44.think? They are not making a statement. There is no movement. I'm
:33:45. > :33:49.sure that there are but there is no lead from the United Nations. There
:33:50. > :33:53.are so many different angles from different countries, that is what
:33:54. > :33:57.the United Nations was there for? They passed a resolution saying that
:33:58. > :34:04.all necessary steps should be taken. Yes but they are not taking much of
:34:05. > :34:09.a lead. We heard from you. I don't see United Nations leaders talking
:34:10. > :34:14.about it, giving speeches, letting the public know what is going on?
:34:15. > :34:19.Well, this leads on to what I was going to say, I don't think anyone
:34:20. > :34:24.who supported the vote yesterday is saying that this is a solution to
:34:25. > :34:29.the problem. Often we set up strong men and blow them down. No-one who
:34:30. > :34:34.supported the yes vote is suggesting that the strikes will rid of us of
:34:35. > :34:39.this thing called Isis. They are suggesting it is adding to the
:34:40. > :34:43.options that we have. Yet still people on the panel, including
:34:44. > :34:48.myself, is that we need a global strategy to deal with this. But look
:34:49. > :34:54.at the allies that we are supporting, the UN says that all
:34:55. > :35:01.need to help in dealing with Isis, the Iraqi government says that they
:35:02. > :35:07.need help. The rebels inside Syria, anti-Assad, they are pro-the
:35:08. > :35:12.strikes. Everyone wants this to happen. If you speak to those on the
:35:13. > :35:17.ground to ask what affect is this producing, speaking to the rebels,
:35:18. > :35:21.the Kurds, fighting Isis on the ground, they will tell you. They
:35:22. > :35:27.have been able to kick out Isis from sinna, Raqqa as a result. It helps
:35:28. > :35:30.them activity. It does not solve the problem but it tactically helps
:35:31. > :35:34.them. APPLAUSE.
:35:35. > :35:37.I want to come back to yesterday in the House of Commons. We have had
:35:38. > :35:44.half of the programme on this. But there were a lot of questions on the
:35:45. > :35:48.next topic. It is a question from Angela Griffin, please.
:35:49. > :35:51.Has Hilary Benn's speech in the House of Commons weakened Jeremy
:35:52. > :35:56.Corbyn's leadership? There was comment on the way that Hilary Benn
:35:57. > :36:02.was applauded. You mentioned it at the beginning, has it weakened
:36:03. > :36:05.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership? I think what it showed to the Labour Party
:36:06. > :36:10.is that there was another person capable of being leader. It was the
:36:11. > :36:17.most extraordinary speech. I don't know how it came to those watching
:36:18. > :36:22.on TV but standing in the chamber, regardless of views it was spine
:36:23. > :36:26.tingling. The reason that the lady spoke about the cheering at the end,
:36:27. > :36:31.because it was so extraordinary, the debate had been so intense, that is
:36:32. > :36:35.what led to the applause and the cheers. I take your point about it
:36:36. > :36:40.being a sombre day and motion. This is for the Labour Party to deal
:36:41. > :36:44.with. I saw the look of fear on some of the Labour MPs in the lobby. They
:36:45. > :36:47.were worried about the consequences. We have heard Ken Livingstone
:36:48. > :36:52.talking about the deselection. This is a matter for the Labour Party.
:36:53. > :36:55.But all I would say is that it is important, regardless of what we may
:36:56. > :36:59.thing, as a government minister, having a strong opposition is
:37:00. > :37:03.something that the country needs. I think that was Hilary Benn showing
:37:04. > :37:12.he has shown extraordinary qualities in that speech last night.
:37:13. > :37:17.APPLAUSE. Diane Abbott, is Jeremy Corbyn's
:37:18. > :37:25.position weaker as a result? You know, let's just say, Hilary Benn
:37:26. > :37:33.made a bravura speech. If you have shut your eyes, you could have
:37:34. > :37:36.thought it was Tony Benn speaking. But as for him having great
:37:37. > :37:42.qualities, fortunately in the Labour Party we have many with great
:37:43. > :37:46.qualities. Jeremy Corbyn has faced a lot of sneering from the London
:37:47. > :37:51.elite. I have known Jeremy Corbyn a long
:37:52. > :37:56.time. It has long been my view that Jeremy Corbyn invests in a decent
:37:57. > :38:01.suit, for instance. But he is a very begin win person with genuine
:38:02. > :38:06.beliefs. He is different from the regular run of politicians. He is
:38:07. > :38:11.not a 40-year-old guy who went to Oxford and wears smart suits. He
:38:12. > :38:15.believes in what he believes with the biggest mandate of a Labour
:38:16. > :38:21.leader. So, is he acting as a strong leader?
:38:22. > :38:27.This idea, what constitutes a strong leader, Jill. What I am saying is
:38:28. > :38:31.this: What Jeremy was saying about the air strikes, supported by the
:38:32. > :38:36.overwhelming majority of Labour members, the majority of Labour MPs,
:38:37. > :38:41.I believe in less than 12 months, the public will come round. I think
:38:42. > :38:46.that the air strikes are ill-feated. And Jeremy will surprise all of you
:38:47. > :38:50.despite the sneering. He stands for certain values that the British
:38:51. > :38:57.people value. This Tory Party is going to hit very rocky waters. We
:38:58. > :39:02.have defeated them on tax credits, on police cuts, taking the right
:39:03. > :39:06.position on the air strikes and I believe that Jeremy Corbyn... Can
:39:07. > :39:11.lead the Labour Party to victory! Can I put to you something you said
:39:12. > :39:15.three or four days ago, a party of government has to have a position on
:39:16. > :39:19.a matter of peace and war. The problem about a free vote for
:39:20. > :39:24.Labour, is it hands victory to Cameron. Is that what happened to
:39:25. > :39:27.and should he have stuck with a whipped vote, telling Labour if you
:39:28. > :39:32.go against the vote you are out of the Shadow Cabinet? It is no secret,
:39:33. > :39:36.my view is that we should have whipped the vote. The Tories whipped
:39:37. > :39:40.their vote. If not, there would have been more people voting against.
:39:41. > :39:44.Is that right? No. How do you know, that is why you
:39:45. > :39:48.have a whip. If you had voted against, you would
:39:49. > :39:54.have lost your job. 100 or so people? I don't think that there
:39:55. > :39:58.were people. There was a small minority in the party who did not
:39:59. > :40:01.want to support the government. But the overwhelming mood was one of
:40:02. > :40:09.supporting the Prime Minister. You did have a whipped vote. We did.
:40:10. > :40:14.The result would have been the same. Just on my whip, I made no secret I
:40:15. > :40:27.wanted a whipped vote. But Jeremy's concern is to bring people together.
:40:28. > :40:30.Let me finish... I'm trying to ask a question, you think he should have
:40:31. > :40:36.told the Shadow Cabinet to get in line or get out? No. It was
:40:37. > :40:41.ridiculous that a man of conviction, which is what everybody tells us
:40:42. > :40:45.that Jeremy Corbyn is, that a man of conviction could not tell his party
:40:46. > :40:49.to fall in line than those who would not. He could have replaced Hilary
:40:50. > :40:55.Benn with you because he would have had somebody to sum up who would
:40:56. > :41:00.have agreed women him and shown... It is a different kind of politics.
:41:01. > :41:03.It sounds radical. But a different kind of politics.
:41:04. > :41:08.I think if we gave him a chance he may be able to deliver it as well.
:41:09. > :41:14.APPLAUSE. What he is talking about... What I
:41:15. > :41:18.think was a mistake, I think on issues of going to war it is
:41:19. > :41:23.appropriate to have a free vote. There was a free vote about
:41:24. > :41:27.fox-hunting, it should abfree vote for something as serious as this.
:41:28. > :41:31.MPs must examine their conscious but also to examine the evidence. What
:41:32. > :41:36.happened during the Iraq war is that MPs in a sense, could outsource
:41:37. > :41:41.brains to the whips, not look at the evidence, therefore going with the
:41:42. > :41:45.whips to take us into the catastrophe that was war. So
:41:46. > :41:49.formatters of war there should not be a whipped vote. But Jeremy should
:41:50. > :41:55.have positioned from the start as something he said as a position of
:41:56. > :42:00.strength, that he would do something differently. To look to have a free
:42:01. > :42:03.vote. Coming back to the original
:42:04. > :42:12.question, Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. I think he did, listen
:42:13. > :42:17.to the speech, the way he articulated the point clearly and it
:42:18. > :42:20.changed my opinion on it. So I do think he has weakened Jeremy
:42:21. > :42:24.Corbyn's leadership. So you changed your mind listening
:42:25. > :42:29.to Hilary Benn? It was a difficult choice. But after listening to the
:42:30. > :42:34.speech, it did sway my decision, yes.
:42:35. > :42:39.I think being a leader you must show a position of strength. In answer to
:42:40. > :42:44.her question, I think yes, it has weakened his position. I was one of
:42:45. > :42:51.the people that applauded that speech of Hilary Benn yesterday. He
:42:52. > :42:56.really stood out amongst that party. Angela Griffin, what do you think,
:42:57. > :43:00.you asked the question? I think that the Conservative have now found a
:43:01. > :43:05.good opposition in Hilary Benn. You think he could become the leader
:43:06. > :43:20.of the party? Yes. Cometh the hour, cometh the man. We
:43:21. > :43:23.are talking about Hilary Benn, and this particular speech was, I think,
:43:24. > :43:30.fantastic. I would salute Hilary Benn. I would salute Tom Watson, I
:43:31. > :43:35.would salute stella Creasy, and all of the 66 Labour MPs who went with
:43:36. > :43:40.conscious and voted as they thought it above party politics. I find with
:43:41. > :43:46.the issues of Liverpool leadership, I don't want to blame Jeremy Corbyn,
:43:47. > :43:54.I think he does unfairly get a raw deal, about the mood, and what I
:43:55. > :43:57.mean about the mood is that on this programme last week, Ken Livingstone
:43:58. > :44:01.suggested that those who murdered people gave their lives in protest.
:44:02. > :44:05.Murder can never be a form of protest. But phrasing it in that
:44:06. > :44:10.way, I have been through the grievances that he spoke about. I
:44:11. > :44:17.have witnessed torture in jail, imprisoned, detained without a
:44:18. > :44:23.charge. Had my DNA taken but I have not killed people. We cannot justify
:44:24. > :44:27.terrorism. Ken Livingstone then goes on, he is making excuses for
:44:28. > :44:31.terrorists, he wants to say to understand them but he is not
:44:32. > :44:37.willing to understand the motives of the 66 MPs of his party, that voted
:44:38. > :44:41.for intervention in Syria but is saying that he is should be
:44:42. > :44:45.deselected. We are sympathising with terrorists
:44:46. > :44:53.but not with our own MPs. It is that mood... It is incomprehensible. This
:44:54. > :44:58.is not just about Jeremy Corbyn but to admit with what Ken Livingstone
:44:59. > :45:06.said last week, with the remarks yesterday, do not defend him please.
:45:07. > :45:10.Ken does not need me to defend him. On Caroline and whipping, gently, I
:45:11. > :45:14.would say that Caroline can afford to take her position on whipping,
:45:15. > :45:18.there is only one person in her party, the party leader, the whip
:45:19. > :45:24.and the backbencher. I can have a view. It is relevant to say that
:45:25. > :45:28.people should be looking at their consciouses, and not just going
:45:29. > :45:33.through the fodder. In the 28 years I have never been
:45:34. > :45:35.described as lobby fodder. But the thing about the Labour Party and the
:45:36. > :45:40.collapse of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. Yesterday I had lunch,
:45:41. > :45:45.half voted seriously against the action, half of them voted for the
:45:46. > :45:49.action. Actually, as Labour MPs we have more to unite us than to
:45:50. > :45:54.#2kw50id us, basically protecting our constituents from this Tory
:45:55. > :45:58.Government. All of this sneering at Jeremy and his leadership, Hilary
:45:59. > :46:02.Benn made a brilliant speech in the moment but I am telling this
:46:03. > :46:04.audience that Jeremy Corbyn will be proved right about the Syria air
:46:05. > :46:10.strikes. APPLAUSE.
:46:11. > :46:19.Let's abandon Jeremy Corbyn for a moment. I speak as a member of the
:46:20. > :46:23.Labour Party. I actually thought Hilary Benn's performance yesterday
:46:24. > :46:28.just showed how poor a leader Jeremy Corbyn was. His performance
:46:29. > :46:35.yesterday was very bad. I personally think that there is a civil war in
:46:36. > :46:39.the Labour Party at the moment and I think the actions of Jeremy have not
:46:40. > :46:43.helped things. He has been very divisive, appointed controversial
:46:44. > :46:50.people and gone behind the back of his Shadow Cabinet and MPs. I
:46:51. > :46:54.personally think that the Labour Party is bombing in the polls. I
:46:55. > :46:58.think Jeremy should do the honourable thing, put his party
:46:59. > :47:05.before his ambitions and resign as leader of the Labour Party. And you
:47:06. > :47:09.here. I would probably say that what Hilary Benn said last night was
:47:10. > :47:17.quite astounding and the Commons will remember it, but Jeremy has the
:47:18. > :47:21.biggest ever mandate of his party. That is something that everybody
:47:22. > :47:25.across the political spectrum has to respect and take into account. And
:47:26. > :47:33.if they don't, that is unfair politics right there for you. We
:47:34. > :47:38.only have ten minutes left and I think we will go on to another
:47:39. > :47:42.topic. Next week we are in Bath and the week after that, in Slough. We
:47:43. > :47:49.will give the details again at the end. This question from Dylan
:47:50. > :47:53.Gibbons, please. Why did the government appeared to be so
:47:54. > :47:57.aggressive and ill informed in its negotiations with junior doctors?
:47:58. > :48:04.The junior doctors' strike which was called off. 97% of doctors voted for
:48:05. > :48:07.a strike. Why was Jeremy Hunt so aggressive and ill informed, and the
:48:08. > :48:14.government so aggressive and ill informed, Jill Kirby? It is a bit of
:48:15. > :48:18.a mess. We have to be relieved that junior doctors are not striking and
:48:19. > :48:21.hope that this gets sorted out. Some of the difficulty is that the
:48:22. > :48:26.government has not been clear about the objective here. We are told it
:48:27. > :48:30.is about seven-day working. Seven-day working in the NHS, and a
:48:31. > :48:34.seven-day service means different things to different people. We need
:48:35. > :48:38.to be confident that we could all see a GP when we desperately need to
:48:39. > :48:43.at the weekend and can be looked after in hospital at the weekend,
:48:44. > :48:48.but hospital doctors already work weekends. GPs do not. Do we want GPs
:48:49. > :48:52.on duty in the surgery for routine appointments for seven days a week?
:48:53. > :48:57.I am confused as to what the government really seeks to get out
:48:58. > :49:01.of this. I don't think most people really do expect every part of the
:49:02. > :49:05.NHS to be seven-day working, but they do expect that in hospital they
:49:06. > :49:07.will be properly cared for throughout the weekend. In tangled
:49:08. > :49:11.with this is the question of whether junior doctors are paid enough
:49:12. > :49:15.already or not, whether restrictions on their working hours have led to
:49:16. > :49:20.them losing out in terms of their pay, their overtime and so on. What
:49:21. > :49:25.is your interpretation of it? Their position is clear, they say it is
:49:26. > :49:28.phoney that they are getting 11% pay increase and they are going to lose
:49:29. > :49:34.30% of their salary, according to their union. I don't know the truth.
:49:35. > :49:38.A lot of them are fed up but many junior doctors did not get involved
:49:39. > :49:42.in the action at all. What worries me in the long-term is whether we
:49:43. > :49:46.will be able to afford to pay our doctors enough to keep them in this
:49:47. > :49:53.country working in the NHS, and whether the NHS model is totally
:49:54. > :49:57.bust anyway. You, sir. RU doctor? I worked in the health service for a
:49:58. > :50:01.long time and I think one of the big problems is that there is still fat
:50:02. > :50:05.and wastage in the NHS. They're absolutely isn't. Apart from the
:50:06. > :50:10.Greek model of economics, which pervades through the accounting
:50:11. > :50:14.process of the way the NHS is run, on the shop floor there is little
:50:15. > :50:19.but the smell left on the bone as far as the slack in the system is
:50:20. > :50:24.concerned. There is not any more cutting that could possibly be done.
:50:25. > :50:29.I have worked with doctors, midwives, nurses of all different
:50:30. > :50:33.professions, and the professions are absolutely on their knees as far as
:50:34. > :50:38.keeping the health service going is concerned.
:50:39. > :50:46.APPLAUSE You asked the question, you also
:50:47. > :50:53.work in the NHS, as what? I am an NHS manager. One of those! I'm
:50:54. > :50:59.afraid so. I am teasing. What is your view? It has been gross
:51:00. > :51:04.uprising. It seems to be quite confusing. -- it has been very
:51:05. > :51:09.surprising. I think it is ill-advised to imply that the lack
:51:10. > :51:14.of junior doctors at the week and was causing very large increase in
:51:15. > :51:18.the number of deaths. I don't think that is as clear-cut as it is laid
:51:19. > :51:23.out, although there are some issues that need to be addressed for the
:51:24. > :51:29.weekend. What do you think of the handling of it, aggressive and ill
:51:30. > :51:34.informed? That is right. It was surprising. I spoke to a national
:51:35. > :51:38.clinical leader and she said the advisers at the Department of Health
:51:39. > :51:44.were not giving good advice to the Secretary of State. Nicky Morgan. I
:51:45. > :51:47.don't recognise the characterisation as aggressive and ill-advised, but I
:51:48. > :51:52.agree there are reforms that need to be made. The BMA have been calling
:51:53. > :51:59.for modernisation of this contract since 2008. There is a need for
:52:00. > :52:03.different parts of the NHS. But there is evidence that shows that if
:52:04. > :52:07.you are admitted and need an operation at the weekend, your
:52:08. > :52:12.chances of survival can be less. There is huge pressure on the NHS.
:52:13. > :52:16.My constituency in Leicestershire has the busiest Accident Emergency
:52:17. > :52:20.in the country, and clearly that whole hospital has to be working
:52:21. > :52:26.effectively seven days a week to cope with the demand from patients
:52:27. > :52:31.on it. But the important point is that the parties are now talking.
:52:32. > :52:35.This is also about a safer NHS in terms of working hours for junior
:52:36. > :52:42.doctors. Under the change in the contract, their working hours
:52:43. > :52:46.maximum goes down to just 72 in a seven-day period, so it is important
:52:47. > :52:51.that contract is modernised. Both parties are talking, we will get
:52:52. > :52:56.there and we can go forward to the NHS that we want. If it works out.
:52:57. > :53:01.Do you believe their claim that they would lose 30% of their salary as a
:53:02. > :53:07.result of these measures? I don't. The contract changes, what Jeremy
:53:08. > :53:14.was saying was that no one would lose out and 75% of people would get
:53:15. > :53:16.more when working the legal hours. I can hear junior doctors around the
:53:17. > :53:20.country throwing things at the television and screaming, because
:53:21. > :53:24.the kind of description you are hearing from Nicky Morgan does not
:53:25. > :53:28.match up to what I have been hearing from junior doctors in my
:53:29. > :53:31.constituency and beyond. They are speechless about the contempt with
:53:32. > :53:35.which they have been treated by the government. Not just them, but
:53:36. > :53:39.nurses whose bursaries are going to be cancelled and will have to pay
:53:40. > :53:42.for their training, too. This is a government that does not care much
:53:43. > :53:46.about the NHS, and also a government that does not mind launching a
:53:47. > :53:54.campaign of misinformation about what junior doctors do.
:53:55. > :53:58.APPLAUSE They were willing to take the
:53:59. > :54:00.action, being forced to take the action that they were because they
:54:01. > :54:04.care about their patients and they want them to be safe. That is why
:54:05. > :54:09.they were focusing on this contract, and let's not forget it was being
:54:10. > :54:13.imposed upon them until the very last minute. At the last minute,
:54:14. > :54:17.thank goodness, Jeremy Hunt blinked. Until then he was trying to say, if
:54:18. > :54:22.you don't agree I will impose this contract on you anyway. What kind of
:54:23. > :54:25.ways that to treat professionals who do not go into the NHS to make loads
:54:26. > :54:32.of money but because they absolutely care about it? We have to speed up
:54:33. > :54:36.because we are coming towards the end. I have a friend who works in
:54:37. > :54:40.the NHS and she could not believe that doctors were wondering out in
:54:41. > :54:43.their scrubbers, over infection lines, going out and speaking to
:54:44. > :54:46.patients. She said the biggest reason they spend so much money is
:54:47. > :54:52.because they get infections, and yet if they did not wonder over in their
:54:53. > :54:55.scrubs, that would take a load of the junior doctors. But we don't
:54:56. > :54:59.talk about the waste in the NHS ever.
:55:00. > :55:02.Caroline, you talked about the government not caring about the NHS
:55:03. > :55:07.but can I take you back to May when the Conservatives proposed ?10
:55:08. > :55:13.million to put into the NHS, far more than any other party? How can
:55:14. > :55:17.you say that this government does not care about the NHS when it is
:55:18. > :55:24.investing more than ever before? I will redirect that to Diane Abbott.
:55:25. > :55:28.Inflation and population. My mum was a nurse, so full disclosure, I know
:55:29. > :55:33.how hard and committed NHS workers are. I could not believe Jeremy Hunt
:55:34. > :55:38.begin and again going into meetings and saying, in effect, people were
:55:39. > :55:44.dying at weekends because junior doctors did not work at weekends.
:55:45. > :55:47.Andrew Lansley was their first home -- Health Secretary. He fell out
:55:48. > :55:52.with everybody. Jeremy Hunt was brought in to be Mr nice guy and he
:55:53. > :55:56.has fallen out with everybody. There is a systemic problem between Tory
:55:57. > :56:01.health ministers and the NHS, because if you work in the NHS you
:56:02. > :56:13.know they do not mean the NHS any good. It is systemic. Maajid. OK, go
:56:14. > :56:19.on. Patricia Hewitt ruined life for junior doctors. Under Labour. Mr
:56:20. > :56:23.Hunt is doing the same thing. He has lied about weekend mortality. There
:56:24. > :56:29.is no increased Jeff at weekends. I work in liver transplant. Eric
:56:30. > :56:32.Ashman patients do not want to come in at the weekend for emergency
:56:33. > :56:38.transplants because they believe Jeremy, I will not pronounce his
:56:39. > :56:43.surname because I might mispronounce it deliberately, because they think
:56:44. > :56:49.that by having a life-saving transplant operation they will die.
:56:50. > :56:53.Given his profound incompetence at this junior doctors' contract issue,
:56:54. > :56:57.as well as previous Health Secretary 's, is it not time for a cross-party
:56:58. > :57:04.Health Care Commision to save our NHS?
:57:05. > :57:09.APPLAUSE You stole the words from my mouth. I
:57:10. > :57:12.was about to say that you sound like a doctor and you stole the words
:57:13. > :57:16.from my mouth. The only solution to this, as with MPs salaries, is an
:57:17. > :57:23.independent commission that looks at the future of the NHS. As it stands
:57:24. > :57:28.it is unsustainable. All I am going to say is that if my father goes in
:57:29. > :57:32.for surgery and is in the operating theatre and anaesthetised and they
:57:33. > :57:36.say, sorry, we have no beds but we have to take you back, this is an
:57:37. > :57:44.unsustainable situation and we need an independent enquiry. Our time is
:57:45. > :57:48.up. Can we talk about climate change next week, David? I can't believe we
:57:49. > :57:52.have the UN climate conference happening now and we have not talked
:57:53. > :57:54.about it. We might have got to it if we had not spent so much time
:57:55. > :57:57.talking about Iraq and Syria. We're in Bath next week with
:57:58. > :58:00.Mary Beard and Quentin Letts We'll be in Slough the
:58:01. > :58:03.following week. To join the audience for either
:58:04. > :58:06.programme, Bath or Slough, go to our If you are listening on Radio 5Live,
:58:07. > :58:26.you can continue the debate My thanks to our panel and apologies
:58:27. > :58:31.for not raising climate change. Next time, I promise. My thanks to our
:58:32. > :58:32.audience, to all of you who came to Birmingham. Until next Thursday,
:58:33. > :59:06.from Question Time, good night. What do we do
:59:07. > :59:12.with something like this?