0:00:02 > 0:00:05Good evening. This is Slough and this is Question Time.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15And a big welcome, whether you're watching,
0:00:15 > 0:00:17listening on the radio,
0:00:17 > 0:00:19and, of course, to our audience here, and our panel.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23Our panel tonight is the Conservative MP for North East Somerset,
0:00:23 > 0:00:25Jacob Rees-Mogg,
0:00:25 > 0:00:28the former Tory MP who defected to Ukip
0:00:28 > 0:00:32and then lost Rochester at the last election, Mark Reckless,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Labour's Emily Thornberry, who came unstuck in Rochester,
0:00:36 > 0:00:39sacked by Ed Miliband for tweeting a picture of a white van,
0:00:39 > 0:00:42and who's now on Jeremy Corbyn's front-bench team
0:00:42 > 0:00:43as Shadow Employment Minister,
0:00:43 > 0:00:45and one of the SNP's new MPs
0:00:45 > 0:00:49who leads for the party on business matters, Hannah Bardell,
0:00:49 > 0:00:53and the journalist and broadcaster Piers Morgan.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57APPLAUSE
0:01:04 > 0:01:06And thank you very much.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09As ever, if you want to join in the debate from home,
0:01:09 > 0:01:11you can do so - text or tweet...
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Oh, and we are on Facebook, too, now,
0:01:22 > 0:01:26so you can "like" us, if you like.
0:01:26 > 0:01:27LAUGHTER
0:01:27 > 0:01:31Our first question tonight, from Kevin Chapman, please. Kevin Chapman.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35Even if David Cameron was to get agreement in Europe,
0:01:35 > 0:01:39would his changes go far enough for a vote to stay?
0:01:39 > 0:01:42As they all sit round the table having dinner in Brussels.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:01:44 > 0:01:45No.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49I think that what has been asked for is fundamentally trivial,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51that three parts of it -
0:01:51 > 0:01:56the EU to be competitive is something the EU wants to do anyway.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00The euro ins and outs - well, the only vote they've had of this kind,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03the other euro outs didn't support us anyway,
0:02:03 > 0:02:05so there's not much to be had in that.
0:02:05 > 0:02:06The free movement of people...
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Taking that out of the preamble is entirely irrelevant.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11If the whole text of the treaty creates...
0:02:11 > 0:02:14Er, the ever-closer union, sorry, of people.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18Just taking it out of the preamble doesn't change a thing.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20The preamble is not the legal essence of the text,
0:02:20 > 0:02:22the main bulk is.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26So that leaves you with this thing on benefits.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Now, first of all, experts have said -
0:02:28 > 0:02:31the Office of Budgetary Responsibility said,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33and the Treasury Select Committee,
0:02:33 > 0:02:35that this would not make much difference to the numbers who came.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39Secondly, I think it's a dreadful way to think of brave people
0:02:39 > 0:02:42who move halfway across a continent to come and work here
0:02:42 > 0:02:45that they're simply coming to grub for benefits. They're not.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48They're coming here to change their lives fundamentally.
0:02:48 > 0:02:49They're taking a risk,
0:02:49 > 0:02:52they're leaving their families, their friends,
0:02:52 > 0:02:55and they're doing something at great sacrifice
0:02:55 > 0:02:58to improve their life and the lives of their families.
0:02:58 > 0:02:59To say they're doing it because
0:02:59 > 0:03:02they're little better than benefits cheats
0:03:02 > 0:03:05is, I think, a really awful view of the people who come here.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07I think they come here...
0:03:10 > 0:03:12And so, to conclude,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15I think we need fundamental change
0:03:15 > 0:03:17on the free movement of people.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19We need to control our borders
0:03:19 > 0:03:22so that we are fair in our treatment of people
0:03:22 > 0:03:23who come here from India
0:03:23 > 0:03:26as opposed to people who come here from Bulgaria.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30I don't see why we have this open-door policy for the EU,
0:03:30 > 0:03:34but incredibly strict regulations on anybody else.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38So I think what is being asked for is fundamentally trivial,
0:03:38 > 0:03:40and we need to be asking for more.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42And if we don't even get what we're currently asking for
0:03:42 > 0:03:45the whole renegotiation is a waste of time.
0:03:45 > 0:03:46So when you said it was...
0:03:46 > 0:03:49APPLAUSE
0:03:49 > 0:03:52When you said what Cameron was asking for was thin gruel,
0:03:52 > 0:03:55you were declaring that you will vote out?
0:03:55 > 0:03:58Had the Prime Minister gone for a proper renegotiation,
0:03:58 > 0:04:01I could have been persuaded to vote to stay in.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05But if we stay in now, we are voting to join a full, federal Europe.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10We are staying on the pathway towards an integrated EU.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13That is what they are doing across Europe.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16We are just a little bit behind,
0:04:16 > 0:04:18but that is the route map.
0:04:18 > 0:04:19We need to pull out of that
0:04:19 > 0:04:23- and re-establish our own control of our own affairs.- Piers Morgan.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27Piers.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29I agree with some of that.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32David Cameron has proven to be an absolutely atrocious negotiator.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35I wouldn't trust him to negotiate my purchase
0:04:35 > 0:04:37of a cheese and pickle sandwich,
0:04:37 > 0:04:40never mind our position in Europe!
0:04:40 > 0:04:43What's wrong with his negotiating style?
0:04:43 > 0:04:45Like he said, the gentleman to my left -
0:04:45 > 0:04:48he asked for very little, he's not even going to get that.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50It's humiliating.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53He will come back with a bit of paper in his hand and say,
0:04:53 > 0:04:55"Great news! I've managed to establish
0:04:55 > 0:04:59"that English people can carry on speaking English.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01"It's a huge victory and I'm a triumph."
0:05:01 > 0:05:03And that's basically what this comes down to.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05He will have achieved nothing
0:05:05 > 0:05:08even if he achieves what he's trying to achieve.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11So I think it's very embarrassing for our country.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14I think he has let us down in the negotiating room.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17Clearly, the Germans and the French in particular look at him...
0:05:17 > 0:05:20You know, in a poker game, they've called his bluff.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23And, unfortunately, they hold all the aces.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25And so... Look, I'm a European.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28We're all... Most of us here, I'd imagine, are Europeans.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31As John Major said the other day on the Today show,
0:05:31 > 0:05:34which I thought was a perfect way of describing this,
0:05:34 > 0:05:36it's the worst possible time,
0:05:36 > 0:05:40isn't it, for England to go back to being Little England,
0:05:40 > 0:05:42detached from the European Union
0:05:42 > 0:05:45when we're facing this chronic migration issue,
0:05:45 > 0:05:46which has to be resolved,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49and we're also facing the worst terror threat
0:05:49 > 0:05:51that we have faced in my lifetime.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53Is it not the issue as well, though,
0:05:53 > 0:05:54that he is doing the two at the same time.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56That instead of standing up to Ukip
0:05:56 > 0:05:58and standing up to the Euro-sceptics
0:05:58 > 0:06:00and saying, "Actually, no,
0:06:00 > 0:06:02"we're going to have a negotiation first,"
0:06:02 > 0:06:05he's trying to do that and come home and placate people at home
0:06:05 > 0:06:07with an EU referendum.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10He's trying to achieve a pyrrhic victory,
0:06:10 > 0:06:12which - even if he achieves it - as Jacob said, is meaningless,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15but I don't think he'll even achieve that.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18Hannah, what do you think he should have done? What should he be doing?
0:06:18 > 0:06:20I think he should've been making the positive case for Europe,
0:06:20 > 0:06:22negotiating on that basis.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24Because he's gone to Europe
0:06:24 > 0:06:27and just really annoyed everybody over there.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29Because they know he's back home trying to...
0:06:29 > 0:06:31He's essentially trying to face both ways.
0:06:31 > 0:06:35There are many, many positive aspects to remaining within Europe.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38It brings huge business, particularly in Scotland,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40we have...and across the UK,
0:06:40 > 0:06:43billions of pounds of investment reliant upon the EU.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46There is a positive case to be made for that.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49But what he has not done is made that positive case.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54And I'm not normally likely to agree with Piers, but I do...
0:06:54 > 0:06:56Really? Why?
0:06:56 > 0:06:59- We were getting on very well in the Green Room.- We were, yeah.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01What's the matter with you?
0:07:01 > 0:07:03But...there is a point here that he's doing it in a way
0:07:03 > 0:07:06that is with one hand tied behind his back.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08He should've stood up, been stronger.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10Do you think the result will be
0:07:10 > 0:07:12that England votes "out"?
0:07:12 > 0:07:14If you go by the polls just now,
0:07:14 > 0:07:17we could be in the position that England votes to come out
0:07:17 > 0:07:20and then the devolved nations, other nations of the United Kingdom,
0:07:20 > 0:07:24including Scotland, are taken out of Europe against its will.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26We should have a quad-lock.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30We should be in a position that those other nations get a say.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33And Alan Johnston has said he could see a reason why people would be
0:07:33 > 0:07:36particularly upset in a devolved nation.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38And Nicola Sturgeon said in effect there'd be
0:07:38 > 0:07:41another referendum from Scotland if Britain pulled out.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44She's said that we would look at the conditions
0:07:44 > 0:07:46under which any future referendum would be held.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50But it could be... You have to go by what your people feel.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52And, ultimately, at the moment,
0:07:52 > 0:07:55the majority of people in Scotland are pro staying in Europe.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58OK. Let's come to some members of the audience, then I'll come to you.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00Man in the front here. Yes.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03What I want to know, and the British people want to know,
0:08:03 > 0:08:05is will there ever be a situation
0:08:05 > 0:08:09where David Cameron can renegotiate a free movement of people?
0:08:09 > 0:08:12Emily Thornberry, what do you think?
0:08:12 > 0:08:15I don't think you can renegotiate a free movement of people.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17I think the European Union is based on the idea
0:08:17 > 0:08:21of free movement of people and goods.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23I think that's kind of fundamental to it.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26There's a Schengen agreement within Europe
0:08:26 > 0:08:28which means that people can move freely around Europe
0:08:28 > 0:08:30without needing to show their passports.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33Now, clearly, if Europe are going to keep that
0:08:33 > 0:08:35on the Continent of Europe,
0:08:35 > 0:08:38they need to do a great deal more in sharing security information.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Because you can't have people moving from Brussels to France
0:08:42 > 0:08:44and the security services not passing information on.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47So it seems to me that they need to do a lot more work on Schengen.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49We're not part of Schengen.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51You still have to show a passport to come into Britain.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55But, nevertheless, the EU is based on that and that is how it is.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58But I just don't think that we are in a position as a country
0:08:58 > 0:09:01to start cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03As the world gets smaller,
0:09:03 > 0:09:05as we get closer to one another,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08I think the idea of Britain sailing off into the Atlantic,
0:09:08 > 0:09:10and losing...possibly losing Scotland
0:09:10 > 0:09:12and becoming Little Englanders
0:09:12 > 0:09:14is something which deeply worries me.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17I think that David Cameron is playing games
0:09:17 > 0:09:19with the future of this country.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22I think he's doing that in order to be able to keep...
0:09:22 > 0:09:26to ride the many-headed tiger that is the Tory Party!
0:09:26 > 0:09:30I think there are Conservatives who will never be placated.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Some might be, but he's prepared to have a gamble,
0:09:33 > 0:09:34and it's with our future.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37And, actually, part of being in Europe is about jobs.
0:09:37 > 0:09:38It's about growth.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40It's about investment.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43In Slough, there are more, I think, international HQs
0:09:43 > 0:09:46than in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland put together.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Slough is an internationalist place
0:09:49 > 0:09:52and actually it benefits from being part of the European Union.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55We have to be realistic about this. I'm not saying it's perfect.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58I think there's lots of things that should be changed.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01And what I would do is say that we are part of Europe,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04we are Europeans, and we want to get together with other people
0:10:04 > 0:10:06who think the same way and be able to change it.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08For example, with state aid.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10If you want to spend state money
0:10:10 > 0:10:13you need to make sure you get as much bang for your buck as possible.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15So if you're having a contract with an employer,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18you can say, "Right, we're going to give you a government contract
0:10:18 > 0:10:21"but we expect you to have a certain number of apprentices,
0:10:21 > 0:10:23"a certain number of local people,
0:10:23 > 0:10:25"we expect you to train people up."
0:10:25 > 0:10:28At the moment, the European Union rules are very hazy about that.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30We need to be negotiating things
0:10:30 > 0:10:32like that for the sake of the country.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Let's go back to where we are,
0:10:34 > 0:10:36with the negotiations going on today and tomorrow.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39The man up there in spectacles, what do you think?
0:10:39 > 0:10:41To go back to your earlier point -
0:10:41 > 0:10:45couldn't we be like Switzerland and be successful outside the EU?
0:10:45 > 0:10:47APPLAUSE
0:10:48 > 0:10:50You, sir, in the front. Yes.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54All the defence of Europe is a defence of the economy.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56What about the defence of society?
0:10:56 > 0:10:58I think that's what people are more concerned about.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01Can you go a bit further? Explain what you mean?
0:11:01 > 0:11:03If you talk to older people - older than even I am -
0:11:03 > 0:11:06they are very, very concerned about the changes
0:11:06 > 0:11:08that are happening to our country.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11Now, time and again the argument is based around the economy.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14It's not based around British society itself
0:11:14 > 0:11:16and the values that Britain stands for.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18So the... Immigration...
0:11:18 > 0:11:20I... The implication is,
0:11:20 > 0:11:23immigration is the thing you need to control? Is that what you mean?
0:11:23 > 0:11:26I don't personally believe it's something we need to control,
0:11:26 > 0:11:28but I do believe that that is a major concern in our society.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30And you in the front row.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34I agree with what the panel members who've spoken already have said
0:11:34 > 0:11:36but I really think David Cameron is alienating a lot of other nations
0:11:36 > 0:11:39in what he's going to do tonight.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42I think there's a lot of things wrong with the EU,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45as all the members of the panel have said,
0:11:45 > 0:11:48and what he's doing is actually going backwards, at the moment.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51He really needs to be trying to build those relationships
0:11:51 > 0:11:52in a means to make the EU better.
0:11:52 > 0:11:56- I think that really needs to happen. - Before I come to Mark Reckless,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59does anybody here approve of what the Prime Minister's doing,
0:11:59 > 0:12:01or trying to achieve in Brussels?
0:12:01 > 0:12:03Would speak up for it? Yes, you, sir.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06- Wow, one hand!- Or two.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10Well, it's best to be alone than have no representation whatsoever.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13- PIERS MORGAN LAUGHS - Quite right.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16I certainly would agree with him,
0:12:16 > 0:12:19because it is not an easy task for him.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23He is trying his utmost, his very best
0:12:23 > 0:12:29to come up with whatever good is required for this country.
0:12:29 > 0:12:36In that respect I would say, yes, he is doing his best.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40And do you think the vote will go in favour... The question was -
0:12:40 > 0:12:44if he gets what he's going to try and get,
0:12:44 > 0:12:48that will get Britain voting to stay in. Do you agree with that?
0:12:48 > 0:12:51I would still want to see a referendum, nonetheless.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53Mark Reckless.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57He's virtually asked for nothing
0:12:57 > 0:13:00and it's not even clear he's going to get that.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02I'm sure at the last moment he'll bring some sort of rabbit
0:13:02 > 0:13:05out of the hat and all his fellow leaders
0:13:05 > 0:13:09and some of the media will big up what he's supposedly achieved.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12But I think what David Cameron has shown with this renegotiation
0:13:12 > 0:13:15is not what he wanted, of pretending that somehow
0:13:15 > 0:13:18the European Union was going to be better in the future
0:13:18 > 0:13:20rather than voting on what we know it to be.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24But he has shown just how little influence this country has.
0:13:24 > 0:13:29Since he was elected as Prime Minister he has voted 40 times
0:13:29 > 0:13:33against measures in the Council of Ministers in the European Union.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37And every single one of those 40 times he has been outvoted.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41And now, at the time when our leverage in Europe should be greater
0:13:41 > 0:13:44than any other, when we're about to have this referendum,
0:13:44 > 0:13:49and the polls are so close - even then, rather than actually
0:13:49 > 0:13:52giving even the minimum that he's asking for,
0:13:52 > 0:13:54Europe is saying, "No, that's not the way we do it,
0:13:54 > 0:13:56"it's not in our interest.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58"We want to go in this different direction."
0:13:58 > 0:14:02I think we need to recognise that if other countries...
0:14:02 > 0:14:06the European Union wants to be this ever-closer union,
0:14:06 > 0:14:10wants to become 27 or 28 countries that become essentially one
0:14:10 > 0:14:15for the key tasks of a state, then that is not for us.
0:14:15 > 0:14:16I think there's no shame in that.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19We should have friendly relations with the European Union,
0:14:19 > 0:14:23we should have free trade with them, but we don't want to spend
0:14:23 > 0:14:25£55 million a day to have 27 other countries
0:14:25 > 0:14:29make laws for us that we could much better make for ourselves.
0:14:29 > 0:14:31We need to lift our eyes to the horizon
0:14:31 > 0:14:34and trade freely with the whole world,
0:14:34 > 0:14:37not focus on one declining continent of it.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39APPLAUSE
0:14:44 > 0:14:47Philip Markwick, you had a question about this.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49I'm just interested in your take on this.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53Do you think the other countries of the EU are being unreasonable?
0:14:53 > 0:14:55- I'll ask the question.- Yeah.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58The UK seems to have reasonable requests.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01Why is the EU flirting with a Brexit?
0:15:01 > 0:15:04The UK seems to have reasonable requests.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06Why are they flirting, Jacob Rees-Mogg?
0:15:06 > 0:15:08Why would they risk Britain leaving?
0:15:08 > 0:15:11Well, I'm afraid my view is it's all a great charade,
0:15:11 > 0:15:14that we've asked for so little and they're just making a fuss about
0:15:14 > 0:15:17one thing so that when we get one little bit of it,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20everyone will say, "Fantastic triumph!"
0:15:20 > 0:15:23"Glory for the great British leadership!" "Hail to the chief!"
0:15:23 > 0:15:27But I think it's all an absolute stitch-up.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30I imagine this was agreed a long time ago.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33If one reads the papers it basically comes down to,
0:15:33 > 0:15:34"Does Mrs Merkel approve?"
0:15:34 > 0:15:37If the Chancellor of Germany approves, we'll get it.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39And a few months ago it looked as if she did.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41I expect that after a long session
0:15:41 > 0:15:45we will get most of this fiddly little thing on benefits.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49The other three are just not serious things to ask for.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52They are no-change, the gentleman's absolutely right.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55The European Council is not flirting with Brexit.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59It's going to allow us to appear to have a phoney victory and
0:15:59 > 0:16:03I don't think the British electorate will be fooled this time
0:16:03 > 0:16:04in the way they were in 1975
0:16:04 > 0:16:07when they were told there had been major changes
0:16:07 > 0:16:09and there hadn't been any changes at all.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13How many Tories will be on your side of the argument, do you think,
0:16:13 > 0:16:16if he does come back with what you call a phoney fix?
0:16:16 > 0:16:18I think the numbers are growing every day.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22We get bigger and stronger! I think if you talk to...
0:16:22 > 0:16:23APPLAUSE
0:16:23 > 0:16:27If you talk to fellow Conservative MPs, a lot of them are very cautious
0:16:27 > 0:16:30on this renegotiation.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34They are perhaps more... dutiful than I am.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37Duty and loyalty are very attractive qualities which
0:16:37 > 0:16:40I probably ought to have more of to the leader of our party.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42But I think as we get closer to the referendum
0:16:42 > 0:16:45more and more people will make their views clear.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47If you go to the Conservative Party in the country at large,
0:16:47 > 0:16:51and Conservative associations, they make me look like a pro-European,
0:16:51 > 0:16:54so I know exactly where the Tory Party is.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56Isn't the problem here, though, that we're basically,
0:16:56 > 0:17:00because of Cameron's behaviour over this renegotiation,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03we are basically drifting into a potential scenario where, actually,
0:17:03 > 0:17:07we may have a referendum which leads to us leaving the European Union?
0:17:07 > 0:17:10- Yes. I know.- It doesn't get much more serious,
0:17:10 > 0:17:12particularly if that then triggers
0:17:12 > 0:17:16Scotland, which is very pro-European - in my view quite rightly -
0:17:16 > 0:17:19then says, "Sod that for a game of soldiers,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21"we're out of the United Kingdom."
0:17:21 > 0:17:26So this is actually very big stakes and not a time for
0:17:26 > 0:17:29the British Prime Minister, in my view, to be playing silly games,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32which is what I think he's doing, a lot of this audience
0:17:32 > 0:17:35clearly share that view, but more importantly
0:17:35 > 0:17:37- so do the other members of the European Union.- That's right.
0:17:37 > 0:17:39I think that...
0:17:39 > 0:17:42- Let's face it, they are probably right.- But they talk about it...
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Some people talk about it as if it's going to be some sort of
0:17:45 > 0:17:48amicable divorce, as if you could have Britain
0:17:48 > 0:17:51as one party and Europe as the other party - it's not like that.
0:17:51 > 0:17:53It's like... We're all thinking about Christmas,
0:17:53 > 0:17:56a group of brothers and sisters meeting up
0:17:56 > 0:17:58and one strops off. What happens?
0:17:58 > 0:18:01The others continue and they don't have anything to do with them.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05People talk about Switzerland, why can't we be like Switzerland?
0:18:05 > 0:18:08I don't know if you remember the Prime Minister of Norway saying,
0:18:08 > 0:18:11"We're outside Europe and what happens is
0:18:11 > 0:18:14"we get faxed information on what it is we are supposed to do
0:18:14 > 0:18:18"if we want to engage with Europe, and trade with Europe."
0:18:18 > 0:18:21We don't need to be told from the Continent of Europe
0:18:21 > 0:18:24how we trade with Europe,
0:18:24 > 0:18:26we need to be absolutely right there.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28It's not right for Mark to say,
0:18:28 > 0:18:30why can't we just trade with the rest of the world?
0:18:30 > 0:18:34Our biggest trading partner is the rest of Europe. Let's get real.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36- APPLAUSE - We would be in the worst possible...
0:18:36 > 0:18:39You. Young man there. Yep.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43I'm an A-level politics student studying the Constitution
0:18:43 > 0:18:46and the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty,
0:18:46 > 0:18:49and I find it disgraceful that our politicians throughout
0:18:49 > 0:18:54the last 30 years or so have eroded the doctrine of parliamentary
0:18:54 > 0:18:57sovereignty without even asking the people.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00APPLAUSE
0:19:01 > 0:19:04The man in the red pullover, there. You, sir.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08I ask the panel, do they believe that the majority of
0:19:08 > 0:19:11the English public have enough knowledge
0:19:11 > 0:19:17and information and understanding of the EU to make a vote
0:19:17 > 0:19:21constructively, or will they just be emotional votes?
0:19:21 > 0:19:23APPLAUSE What do you think?
0:19:25 > 0:19:30All the people I've spoken to - some of them are well educated
0:19:30 > 0:19:33and some aren't - it's going to be emotional.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35I trust the people, as I do at general elections,
0:19:35 > 0:19:40that the British people in their votes get good governments
0:19:40 > 0:19:42again and again, and the governments that they want.
0:19:42 > 0:19:47I think the mass decisions of millions of people actually are
0:19:47 > 0:19:50better at getting the right answers than a few of the elite.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54So I trust the people against the establishment.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56The gentleman makes a very good point about engagement
0:19:56 > 0:19:59and I think that is exactly right. The opportunity to engage
0:19:59 > 0:20:00and be educated positively
0:20:00 > 0:20:03about the issue that's going to be put in front of you.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06We did that in Scotland at the referendum,
0:20:06 > 0:20:08we inspired a nation, you could say.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11Whether you were for or against,
0:20:11 > 0:20:13the fact that we asked people the big questions,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16we gave them the opportunity to be in charge of their future
0:20:16 > 0:20:18in a democratic way.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Unfortunately, that's not what is happening here
0:20:20 > 0:20:23and it's not going to be that kind of referendum,
0:20:23 > 0:20:25because we are running out of time.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28The only advantage I can see that I've got out of it,
0:20:28 > 0:20:31that I've seen as a real advantage, that I understand,
0:20:31 > 0:20:34I don't have to keep changing my money when I go on holiday.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36LAUGHTER
0:20:36 > 0:20:40The crux of what I was getting at is, do you think the Prime Minister
0:20:40 > 0:20:45is pursuing a negotiation in good faith or not?
0:20:45 > 0:20:46- No.- No.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49I certainly think the Prime Minister is acting in good faith, yes.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51- Do you?- Of course I do. - I don't think he is.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54He doesn't want to be quoted saying anything else
0:20:54 > 0:20:55but he doesn't mean that.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58I would say that privately. I trust the Prime Minister.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01You'd say something in private that you actually said in public?
0:21:01 > 0:21:02I always do. I am very unusual.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04That is a very unusual thing for a politician.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07I have always trusted the Prime Minister,
0:21:07 > 0:21:10I continue to trust his... good faith.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12He is doing his best as he sees it,
0:21:12 > 0:21:14but I fundamentally disagree with the approach he's taking.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18Jacob, I don't trust the Prime Minister.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20You may remember a session when we were both Conservative MPs,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23and I asked the Prime Minister a question about
0:21:23 > 0:21:26the European Arrest Warrant. He'd previously argued against it.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29He then turned round, and with apparent sincerity
0:21:29 > 0:21:33said that there was no other way in order to tackle terrorists,
0:21:33 > 0:21:36and we had to go down this path.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39He promised a vote in the House of Commons on that
0:21:39 > 0:21:42before the by-election which I fought, and he broke his word on it.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45What he is doing with this renegotiation, or he's trying to do,
0:21:45 > 0:21:46is choreographing it,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49so as well as being the captain of one of the teams,
0:21:49 > 0:21:52he gets to set the rules of this referendum, and that isn't right.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54I wanted to take up a point about the devolved administrations
0:21:54 > 0:21:57and what we heard from Hannah. What the SNP did is
0:21:57 > 0:22:01it argued there was going to be this sort of honey and sunlit uplands
0:22:01 > 0:22:05for Scotland because the oil price would be at 120 a barrel forever.
0:22:05 > 0:22:06In fact it's at 40.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09The idea that we vote to leave the European Union,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11that the Scots feel so strongly about this,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14and the case for independence, as Hannah would claim, is so strong,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17it is absolutely preposterous to believe that Scotland would
0:22:17 > 0:22:21vote for independence when the black hole in its finances is so enormous.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25As far as Wales is concerned, we actually saw a poll recently
0:22:25 > 0:22:28in Wales that saw more people voting to leave the European Union
0:22:28 > 0:22:32than wanting to remain. So we can come out as a United Kingdom
0:22:32 > 0:22:34and once again govern ourselves.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36APPLAUSE
0:22:36 > 0:22:39He says there's no risk to the union.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42I'm glad he gave me the opportunity to speak about the oil price,
0:22:42 > 0:22:46because it is something that has been peddled out
0:22:46 > 0:22:49by the Unionist parties and the anti-European people, Euro-sceptics
0:22:49 > 0:22:52time and time and again. Let's be very clear,
0:22:52 > 0:22:56Scotland's economy is just as strong and we are just as well off
0:22:56 > 0:22:59as the rest of the UK, per head of population, without oil and gas.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02Now, nobody got it right on the oil price.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06The OBR's forecast was actually further out than the one
0:23:06 > 0:23:09that we had in the white paper, but let's be clear,
0:23:09 > 0:23:11the whole point of having independence
0:23:11 > 0:23:13and having control over your own affairs,
0:23:13 > 0:23:16whether that's as a nation or as a region, is that you have the control
0:23:16 > 0:23:20and the ability to do with your resources what you feel is right.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22And in 2011, the Coalition Government,
0:23:22 > 0:23:25as described by the local Chamber of Commerce,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28committed "a drive-by shooting" on the oil and gas industry
0:23:28 > 0:23:31by hiking up taxes. There's not been a stable tax regime.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33We would put in place a stable tax regime
0:23:33 > 0:23:36and we would manage it in an appropriate way.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38If you want this independence for Scotland,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41why do you want the UK to be ruled by Brussels?
0:23:41 > 0:23:43Surely there's an inconsistency.
0:23:43 > 0:23:44APPLAUSE
0:23:48 > 0:23:49All right, all right. OK.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52Surely the United Kingdom as a whole is much more able
0:23:52 > 0:23:54to be independent than Scotland.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58Well, no, because you have not advocated well for us
0:23:58 > 0:24:01- at European level. - We'll take it one step at a time.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03We've got the negotiations, then the referendum
0:24:03 > 0:24:06and then we'll have, no doubt, questions, depending on what happens.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09But it'll be good for Labour and the SNP to be campaigning together
0:24:09 > 0:24:12to be able to be part of a union of nations.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14I look forward to that.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17If Labour could unite on anything, that would be good!
0:24:17 > 0:24:20All right. Let's go on, cos we've spent a lot of time on that.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22We're back after Christmas, I should say.
0:24:22 > 0:24:26This is our last programme before Christmas. Well, it had better be!
0:24:26 > 0:24:29We're back on 14th January, and we're going to be in London on the 14th,
0:24:29 > 0:24:31in Limehouse,
0:24:31 > 0:24:34and the following week we're going to be in Belfast,
0:24:34 > 0:24:37and the details are on the screen of how to apply.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39I want to take another question now, let's take this one.
0:24:39 > 0:24:40Hannah Ishaq, please.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43Do you think our military involvement in Syria
0:24:43 > 0:24:46is contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK?
0:24:46 > 0:24:49Do you think our military involvement in Syria
0:24:49 > 0:24:54is contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK?
0:24:54 > 0:24:55Hannah Bardell.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00Yes, I think there is a very good chance that it is.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03I have to say, as a new MP, sitting in the House that night
0:25:03 > 0:25:07that we voted to bomb Syria was pretty devastating, actually.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10I believe that I voted the right way,
0:25:10 > 0:25:13not to bomb Syria, because the reality...
0:25:18 > 0:25:22The reality is that there are a whole number of countries
0:25:22 > 0:25:23already bombing Syria.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26So to go in there just to join in, just to do something,
0:25:26 > 0:25:30it's as if we had to do something because nothing wasn't an option.
0:25:30 > 0:25:31Nobody was suggesting nothing.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34We were very supportive of the Vienna agreement,
0:25:34 > 0:25:38which was about sensible transition to a stable government,
0:25:38 > 0:25:41which was about engaging and working with international partners,
0:25:41 > 0:25:44something that the UN was very keen on.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46But what many people that have come out of Syria have said
0:25:46 > 0:25:49is that bombing is not going to solve the problem.
0:25:49 > 0:25:50It will only marginalise...
0:25:50 > 0:25:54The question is, is it contributing to radicalisation?
0:25:54 > 0:25:56We are attacking an ideology,
0:25:56 > 0:25:59we are not just attacking individual fighters on the ground.
0:25:59 > 0:26:03We are going after an ideology, and it is so important
0:26:03 > 0:26:06that we have to try and understand that and hit it at its heart.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09So, stop the flow of money that is coming through oil,
0:26:09 > 0:26:13attack their cyber and digital technology.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15None of that's being done. We're not even bombing Raqqa.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17The Prime Minister stood up on 2nd December
0:26:17 > 0:26:20and said, "We're going to hit them where it hurts,
0:26:20 > 0:26:23"we're going to hit them in Raqqa," and the Defence Secretary
0:26:23 > 0:26:25has already reeled back from that and said,
0:26:25 > 0:26:27"We'll get round to it when we find a strategy,
0:26:27 > 0:26:29"and we've worked out what we're going to do."
0:26:29 > 0:26:31You're answering a different question.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33The question is, is what we're doing in Syria
0:26:33 > 0:26:36contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK?
0:26:36 > 0:26:39Yes, because I think people feel that they are...
0:26:39 > 0:26:45there's going to be more displaced people, more chaos on the ground.
0:26:45 > 0:26:51But I also think that Muslims in the UK will realise that...
0:26:51 > 0:26:53you know, as everybody does,
0:26:53 > 0:26:56that the extremists are nothing to do with Islam.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59They're nothing to do with the Muslim tradition,
0:26:59 > 0:27:03and we have to call them out for what they are. Daesh are terrorists.
0:27:03 > 0:27:07They are a faction, and they have nothing to do with that religion.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10- Jacob Rees-Mogg.- Erm...
0:27:12 > 0:27:14I think it's a very interesting question,
0:27:14 > 0:27:17to which there is no very straightforward answer.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20There are certainly examples historically when
0:27:20 > 0:27:23the counterterrorist actions that are taken
0:27:23 > 0:27:25lead to greater activity by the terrorists.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28That is known from our experience in Northern Ireland,
0:27:28 > 0:27:31where the early response, particularly internment,
0:27:31 > 0:27:35led to greater support in the LOCAL community for terrorism.
0:27:35 > 0:27:40Why I don't think it's the case now is that the radicalisation
0:27:40 > 0:27:44of SOME people in this country predates our bombing of Syria
0:27:44 > 0:27:47by quite a considerable time, so there was already this risk,
0:27:47 > 0:27:51and relatively small numbers of people going to Syria
0:27:51 > 0:27:55from the United Kingdom to be involved in that particular fight.
0:27:55 > 0:27:59I don't think the bombing over the last two weeks has had a particular
0:27:59 > 0:28:03effect on that. But I also think, as the more general point,
0:28:03 > 0:28:06the effect you get of a crackdown on terrorism is more likely to be
0:28:06 > 0:28:08domestic than it is to be international.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11So on balance I think, no.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14OK. What do you think, Hannah?
0:28:14 > 0:28:16I don't think it'd be fair to just be looking at Syria here.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20If we look at London itself, only recently there was an attack
0:28:20 > 0:28:22on the Tube, so, from it happening in Syria,
0:28:22 > 0:28:25it's always going to affect what's happening back home.
0:28:25 > 0:28:30Also, the people who did the bombing in France, they weren't Syrian.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33They were born in Europe, so we need to look at
0:28:33 > 0:28:37what's happening at home before we attack anywhere else.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39APPLAUSE
0:28:39 > 0:28:42So you think it is a contribution, in other words?
0:28:42 > 0:28:44I think it certainly contributes.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47There are people who already have an ideology in the Middle East,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50or even here, who think the West are evil,
0:28:50 > 0:28:52or the West are having such a negative impact on them,
0:28:52 > 0:28:56so by the West actually confirming their suspicions,
0:28:56 > 0:28:58- they're only going to be more radical.- Emily Thornberry.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01I think there is something about some of the wars
0:29:01 > 0:29:04that have taken place in the Middle East,
0:29:04 > 0:29:07and a feeling amongst some people that Western lives
0:29:07 > 0:29:11are more important than the lives of Muslim people in the Middle East.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13And I think that...
0:29:13 > 0:29:16So you will have the Prime Minister, for example,
0:29:16 > 0:29:19talking about a city as being the head of a snake,
0:29:19 > 0:29:21and if you're bombing that city
0:29:21 > 0:29:23there will be civilians who will be killed, but
0:29:23 > 0:29:27not talking about those civilians and not being aware of that.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30Which is why I was not prepared to vote for the bombing of Syria,
0:29:30 > 0:29:33because I felt that it just simply wasn't part
0:29:33 > 0:29:35of a strategy that made any sense.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38I don't think you should go into a country and destabilise it
0:29:38 > 0:29:41even more than it is, and then walk away again
0:29:41 > 0:29:43and think that your own country is going to be safer.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46Because I think if you look at where we have been involved
0:29:46 > 0:29:48in military action over the last few years,
0:29:48 > 0:29:51we have not necessarily made those countries any more stable,
0:29:51 > 0:29:53or made ourselves any safer.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56I think the alienation and feeling among some people,
0:29:56 > 0:29:58you know, who have gone through Ramadan,
0:29:58 > 0:30:02who have gone through starving along with Muslims across the world, and
0:30:02 > 0:30:05who feel that there are some people in Britain who just don't consider
0:30:05 > 0:30:07some lives as being as important as others,
0:30:07 > 0:30:09and that is obviously completely wrong.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12We have to be really clear about that,
0:30:12 > 0:30:14you know, we have to be really clear about what we're doing
0:30:14 > 0:30:17and why we do it. There are many other reasons,
0:30:17 > 0:30:19I think, for the radicalisation of people.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22I don't think that it is to do with wars.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25- I think there's also making sure...- Surely... Sorry.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28The main reason, surely, for the start of radicalisation,
0:30:28 > 0:30:31I suspect in Britain and many other countries,
0:30:31 > 0:30:34was the senseless, illegal war in Iraq.
0:30:34 > 0:30:36APPLAUSE
0:30:39 > 0:30:42The reason I think... It's really important to understand
0:30:42 > 0:30:45the history here. You know, when we went to war in Iraq,
0:30:45 > 0:30:48on completely bogus claims about weapons of mass destruction,
0:30:48 > 0:30:51and we did so, in my view, illegally,
0:30:51 > 0:30:54what we did was we created a hornet's nest
0:30:54 > 0:30:56which we then didn't try and repair.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59And we just decamped and we let Iraq burn.
0:30:59 > 0:31:03And through that burning came Isis, who were basically representing
0:31:03 > 0:31:09a bunch of people who'd been bombed and were poor and desperate
0:31:09 > 0:31:12and thinking, we need something we can attach ourselves to.
0:31:12 > 0:31:14That's where this all started.
0:31:14 > 0:31:18But that doesn't mean that the military action in Syria is wrong,
0:31:18 > 0:31:22because let's ask ourselves why we sent in airpower when we did.
0:31:22 > 0:31:26We did it after the absolutely appalling scenes
0:31:26 > 0:31:30on the streets of Paris, where Isis bombed football stadiums,
0:31:30 > 0:31:34they bombed restaurants, they bombed music concert venues.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37They tried to attack every form of Western life.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40- If that had happened...- How is bombing them going to help that?
0:31:40 > 0:31:42- That's inflammatory.- Let me explain.
0:31:42 > 0:31:46There is a multifaceted way that you deal with an enemy like Isis.
0:31:46 > 0:31:47They are not like Al-Qaeda,
0:31:47 > 0:31:51they are a geographic territorial ambition group.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53They want to take over states.
0:31:53 > 0:31:58They want the world to become an Islamic State in their likeness,
0:31:58 > 0:32:00which is a terrifying prospect, by the way.
0:32:00 > 0:32:03Is it effective, deciding to extend the bombing to Syria?
0:32:03 > 0:32:06I think you have to do something. These people will stop at nothing.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09You see, politicians who want to be seen to be doing something...
0:32:09 > 0:32:12- Let me finish.- ..are politicians you should be very worried about.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14- I heard what you said. - They have to have a plan.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16No, this is the plan, I think.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19From a military point of view, if you're going to combat these people
0:32:19 > 0:32:22on the ground, which is... they're in Syria and Iraq,
0:32:22 > 0:32:25you have to do it in a multifaceted way. You attack the money -
0:32:25 > 0:32:28they've got trillions of dollars coming in from their oil revenues,
0:32:28 > 0:32:32for starters. A lot of it from the very people that we're siding with,
0:32:32 > 0:32:34so it's a ludicrous load of hypocrisy.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37You've got to attack them politically, diplomatically,
0:32:37 > 0:32:40and when it comes to military action you've got to have, in my view,
0:32:40 > 0:32:44and it was promising to see the start of this at the Saudi-led
0:32:44 > 0:32:47coalition this week, where they may put boots on the ground,
0:32:47 > 0:32:51Arab boots on the ground, to combat what is an Arab problem,
0:32:51 > 0:32:52but we need to support them with airpower
0:32:52 > 0:32:54because we have sophisticated airpower.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57- Are you saying...- You can't win it without airpower.
0:32:57 > 0:33:00Are you saying that it's not contributing to the radicalisation of
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Muslims here in Britain, which is what Hannah's question was?
0:33:03 > 0:33:06I think what is happening in Syria is now a trigger for it being
0:33:06 > 0:33:09used as an excuse, but the genuine radicalisation started from Iraq,
0:33:09 > 0:33:11- and that should never have happened. - Fine.
0:33:11 > 0:33:15The woman there in the centre has been patiently waiting.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19I think obviously our aggressive foreign policy is
0:33:19 > 0:33:24a contributing factor, but don't you think that a large problem is,
0:33:24 > 0:33:26look at the people who are voting to take this action.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30It's white middle-class men.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33There's no good examples for Muslim children.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36I was speaking to a leader of a Muslim school in Slough
0:33:36 > 0:33:40recently who told me that he invited a police officer
0:33:40 > 0:33:42with a big beard to come and meet the children
0:33:42 > 0:33:45to show them that they do have opportunities
0:33:45 > 0:33:49in this country, because I don't think that they believe they do.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51All right. The man behind you was shaking his head, I think.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54Immediately behind you, as you started speaking. Yes, you, sir.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57Yes, I think we're fundamentally missing the point.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59I think Isis and Al-Qaeda are
0:33:59 > 0:34:02a vehicle for this particular ideology.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06What we have to do is tackle the root of where this ideology
0:34:06 > 0:34:09stems from, and it's agreed that this strain...
0:34:09 > 0:34:11this stream of Islam is
0:34:11 > 0:34:13called Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia,
0:34:13 > 0:34:17and it's Saudi Arabia which has been exporting and funding
0:34:17 > 0:34:19this type of ideology.
0:34:19 > 0:34:24And the fact is the UK and the West have a very close relationship
0:34:24 > 0:34:29with Saudi Arabia, so that's where the root of the ideology
0:34:29 > 0:34:31and the root of the problem is coming from,
0:34:31 > 0:34:34and before we deal with that...
0:34:34 > 0:34:37that's where we need to look at first.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40OK. And you up there. APPLAUSE
0:34:42 > 0:34:43The woman there. Yes.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46Yeah. We are taught, like, from pretty much as soon as
0:34:46 > 0:34:49we can walk and talk that violence isn't the answer,
0:34:49 > 0:34:55so you go in, you spend £100,000 on bombing a country
0:34:55 > 0:35:00but have no money to help the hundreds and thousands of people
0:35:00 > 0:35:04that are now fleeing that country... it doesn't make any sense to me.
0:35:04 > 0:35:09You go in and we are portraying ourselves as these people who
0:35:09 > 0:35:15bomb a country to prevent people from being angry at us.
0:35:15 > 0:35:20It doesn't make any sense. We are planning... We are planning...
0:35:20 > 0:35:23No, we're trying to stop them beheading people
0:35:23 > 0:35:26and stoning gays to death, and marauding around committing
0:35:26 > 0:35:29the atrocities we saw on the streets of Paris.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31- You're not going to stop... - APPLAUSE
0:35:31 > 0:35:34At some point you've got to stand up to these people.
0:35:34 > 0:35:36And you've got to defeat them militarily.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39Mark Reckless. Stop all talking at once. Mark Reckless.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42I think people who've been making these decisions have really
0:35:42 > 0:35:44been all over the place. I was listening
0:35:44 > 0:35:45to Emily just now saying
0:35:45 > 0:35:48we shouldn't just vote to bomb without any plan,
0:35:48 > 0:35:52and how...now under Jeremy Corbyn she's against bombing IS in Syria,
0:35:52 > 0:35:54but unless I'm much mistaken,
0:35:54 > 0:35:58Emily, you voted previously for bombing IS in Iraq,
0:35:58 > 0:36:01and before that you voted to intervene by bombing in Libya,
0:36:01 > 0:36:04- from which we're still suffering the consequences.- And I can...
0:36:04 > 0:36:06Yeah, yeah.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08And I tell you what... I tell you what happened, was
0:36:08 > 0:36:11when we were asked by the Iraqis...
0:36:11 > 0:36:13Iraq is a mess, and I agree with Piers
0:36:13 > 0:36:16that Iraq is a mess after we have gone in.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20But I was on the demonstrations against being involved in Iraq,
0:36:20 > 0:36:22I was completely against the Iraq war,
0:36:22 > 0:36:26but the fact is we went in and Iraq is now the country it is
0:36:26 > 0:36:28largely as a result of our actions.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32And so if the Iraqi government asks for our help to fight Isis,
0:36:32 > 0:36:35and they have boots on the ground, and have their own troops,
0:36:35 > 0:36:37then in those circumstances, yes, we back them up.
0:36:37 > 0:36:39Completely different to Syria,
0:36:39 > 0:36:41where they don't even have any boots on the ground.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44We're talking about the effect. I must bring you back to the point.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47The question was about the effect of these things on domestic
0:36:47 > 0:36:51Muslim people in this country and whether they feel...
0:36:51 > 0:36:56whether the accumulation particularly of Syria is a further radicalisation.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59To an extent it does have an effect, and I suspect it will be mixed.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01Some people will react differently
0:37:01 > 0:37:03and some people will pervert their religion
0:37:03 > 0:37:06and they haven't succeeded in other parts of their life
0:37:06 > 0:37:08and they will jump on this as the thing
0:37:08 > 0:37:10that can give them significance.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13But it's the same whether it's Islamic State in Iraq or in Syria.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16- No, it's not.- And what we hear from the Prime Minister,
0:37:16 > 0:37:18it's like he thinks this is unfinished business,
0:37:18 > 0:37:21that we had this vote that he lost before to bomb Syria.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24But that time he was trying to bomb the regime, Assad.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26Now he's trying to bomb the other side, IS,
0:37:26 > 0:37:28who are fighting AGAINST Assad.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32And you, sir, in the spectacles there. Third row. Yes, you.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35There is a gigantic chasm between peer-reviewed, academic,
0:37:35 > 0:37:39evidence-based research on counterterrorism and terrorism
0:37:39 > 0:37:41and the jingoistic rhetoric we hear on the media about,
0:37:41 > 0:37:44you know, they hate our freedoms, it's about ideology,
0:37:44 > 0:37:46we're at war with an ideology.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48The consensus in the academic community is that
0:37:48 > 0:37:51ideology is incidental, not causative.
0:37:51 > 0:37:56The causative factors are much more things like despair,
0:37:56 > 0:37:59- things like alienation... - EMILY THORNBERRY:- Yes.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02..things like feeling that certain people
0:38:02 > 0:38:04are separated from wider society.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07- Are you talking about this country? - This country and many others.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09That's what I was trying to say.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12The picture that you have of a family with little children
0:38:12 > 0:38:14going off to Islamic State because somehow there might be
0:38:14 > 0:38:17a better life for them there is just terrifying.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20Absolutely. The point is if we talk about things like ideology we're
0:38:20 > 0:38:22falling into the same trap,
0:38:22 > 0:38:28the same rhetoric that was used even word for word in colonial times,
0:38:28 > 0:38:33when people of colonial British... or British colonies would resist
0:38:33 > 0:38:36and fight back, they were labelled as extremists.
0:38:36 > 0:38:40They were labelled as there's something wrong with their ideology.
0:38:40 > 0:38:41APPLAUSE
0:38:41 > 0:38:44I just want to come back to the lady on the edge saying we won't
0:38:44 > 0:38:46do anything to help in Syria.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48The British people, that's us, taxpayers,
0:38:48 > 0:38:51have spent £1 billion to try to help the refugees in Syria.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54We've done more than any other country other than
0:38:54 > 0:38:58the United States to do this, and I think this is very important.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00I'm not usually a great fan of overseas aid,
0:39:00 > 0:39:03but I think this is absolutely the right way to spend it,
0:39:03 > 0:39:07to help the most troubled people, the most at-risk refugees.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10ALL TALK AT ONCE No, we're closing up now.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12There is a naivety about the use of airpower
0:39:12 > 0:39:15if you're going to try and defeat them militarily.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17Ask anybody in the military.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21Can boots on the ground defeat Isis without airpower? No, they can't.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25So if you sign up to the idea that Isis must be defeated,
0:39:25 > 0:39:28at some point you've got to acknowledge we need airpower.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30I'm afraid it's a military necessity.
0:39:30 > 0:39:34- But and boots on the ground.- Yes. Supporting the boots on the ground.
0:39:34 > 0:39:36All right, I want to move on to another question
0:39:36 > 0:39:37because we have 20 minutes left,
0:39:37 > 0:39:40and we've got two more questions I'd like to get to if I can.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43For the sake of our audience getting through the questions
0:39:43 > 0:39:45they want to ask. Pam Grant, your turn.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49If Donald Trump becomes President of the United States,
0:39:49 > 0:39:52would it upset our special relationship?
0:39:52 > 0:39:54LAUGHTER
0:39:54 > 0:39:58Mark Reckless. Mark, you start on this.
0:40:04 > 0:40:05I think it probably would.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08It is absolutely extraordinary that
0:40:08 > 0:40:10a man such as Donald Trump,
0:40:10 > 0:40:12with the views he has expressed,
0:40:12 > 0:40:14is polling, I think, around 40%
0:40:14 > 0:40:17of likely Republican voters.
0:40:17 > 0:40:21Now, I don't believe he's going to get the Republican nomination
0:40:21 > 0:40:24or still less become President of the United States.
0:40:24 > 0:40:27But to think he MIGHT get the Republican nomination,
0:40:27 > 0:40:30and if something blew up with Hillary Clinton, all those
0:40:30 > 0:40:33e-mails, something else came out, that actually you can paint
0:40:33 > 0:40:36a scenario in which he does become president of the United States.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39I think that would be very unwelcome,
0:40:39 > 0:40:41but I think Donald Trump, he is gauging something.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44There's something happening in America but also in Europe,
0:40:44 > 0:40:46probably in our own country,
0:40:46 > 0:40:51there's a huge disconnect between the politicians and the public.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55And instead of a free market there is a crony corporatism
0:40:55 > 0:40:59and a belief that however you vote the power has all gone to people
0:40:59 > 0:41:02who are not accountable, whether it's the European Commission
0:41:02 > 0:41:04or judges or quangos,
0:41:04 > 0:41:06and actually people who want to make a difference
0:41:06 > 0:41:09over their own lives, they want their democracy back.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12And that's why I want to get out of the European Union
0:41:12 > 0:41:14and I think probably in America it's something in a way I don't
0:41:14 > 0:41:17agree with, but it's something Donald Trump is expressing...
0:41:17 > 0:41:19- HANNAH BARDELL:- That's a great shoehorn, Mark.
0:41:19 > 0:41:23How did you get the European Union into a question about Donald Trump?
0:41:23 > 0:41:26He gets the European Union into everything.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28You, sir. Yes. Come on, quickly.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30Last time I checked, over 400,000 people had
0:41:30 > 0:41:33voted against Donald Trump being allowed into the UK.
0:41:33 > 0:41:35- Now 500, I think.- Over 500, in fact.
0:41:35 > 0:41:38So is that going to be seriously debated in Parliament,
0:41:38 > 0:41:40- as the people have spoken? - Should it be?
0:41:40 > 0:41:41- HANNAH BARDELL:- It should be.- Why?
0:41:41 > 0:41:47That means 65 million people didn't, of course. So it's all relative.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49You have a go at this, Piers Morgan.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53Look, I've done this show 19 times, somebody informed me yesterday.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56- Which show is this?- Question Time.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58You are a show, aren't you?
0:41:58 > 0:41:59No, it's a programme.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02- A programme. - He's been in America too long!
0:42:02 > 0:42:04CHEERING
0:42:05 > 0:42:07Thank you.
0:42:09 > 0:42:11Thank you very much indeed for saying that, thank you.
0:42:11 > 0:42:15I would like to apologise for denigrating your programme.
0:42:15 > 0:42:17Now make your point.
0:42:17 > 0:42:18Your programme 19 times,
0:42:18 > 0:42:21and I'm about to get the biggest cheer I've ever had
0:42:21 > 0:42:23in the 19 times I have appeared,
0:42:23 > 0:42:25because I've known Donald Trump ten years,
0:42:25 > 0:42:29his judgment is very sound, he made me his first Celebrity Apprentice
0:42:29 > 0:42:32in America, and I consider him to be a personal friend.
0:42:32 > 0:42:35- SILENCE FROM AUDIENCE - Exactly.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38So, to me, I'm slightly alarmed at the way this has played out for him.
0:42:38 > 0:42:41I didn't understand what the whole "we're going to ban Muslims"
0:42:41 > 0:42:44stuff was about. I wrote a column attacking him for it.
0:42:44 > 0:42:47But I do understand on a separate level
0:42:47 > 0:42:50why he is resonating with the American public.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52And the reason is that they are fearful.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55They are very fearful that they are now heading towards another
0:42:55 > 0:42:579/11 scenario following what happened in California
0:42:57 > 0:43:00two weeks ago. And he's tapping into that fear.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03He's also totally different to any other politician in America.
0:43:03 > 0:43:07He speaks his mind, he never apologises, he's bombastic,
0:43:07 > 0:43:09he's a showman,
0:43:09 > 0:43:12but in a way he's a slight throwback to how America used to be
0:43:12 > 0:43:15when it was a chest-beating, all-dominant superpower.
0:43:15 > 0:43:19And to underestimate him is to make a big mistake, in my view.
0:43:19 > 0:43:22He's a very smart guy, he knows exactly what he's doing.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25We may not like it, but trust me, banning him from Britain
0:43:25 > 0:43:27will not make any difference to his prospects.
0:43:27 > 0:43:29The question was if he became President would it
0:43:29 > 0:43:32upset our special relationship? Would it be a different Trump
0:43:32 > 0:43:34from the one that seems to be upsetting people at the moment?
0:43:34 > 0:43:38I actually don't think so. Banning him would be difficult, obviously,
0:43:38 > 0:43:40if you couldn't let the President into the country,
0:43:40 > 0:43:42but I looked at what Vladimir Putin said today about him,
0:43:42 > 0:43:44and it was quite interesting.
0:43:44 > 0:43:45He was talking him up very warmly.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48- Brilliant and talented, he called him.- Right.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51And whether you like him or not, Trump, you don't get to get
0:43:51 > 0:43:54a 10 billion empire without being fairly brilliant or talented.
0:43:54 > 0:43:56Even if he's offensive.
0:43:56 > 0:44:00- Doesn't seem to go down too well in Scotland, does he?- No.
0:44:00 > 0:44:02No, and I would like to think that Nicola Sturgeon,
0:44:02 > 0:44:05our First Minister, has led the way on this.
0:44:05 > 0:44:07She removed him from the GlobalScot network,
0:44:07 > 0:44:10removed him from being an ambassador for Scotland,
0:44:10 > 0:44:11and he's also had his honorary degree...
0:44:11 > 0:44:13- What?- Who made him the ambassador?
0:44:13 > 0:44:18- Yeah, who made him ambassador? - Alex Salmond.- Well, let's be clear.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21You liked him when it suited you, didn't you?
0:44:21 > 0:44:22Well, he invested in Scotland,
0:44:22 > 0:44:25he has a number of businesses there, and the people who work...
0:44:25 > 0:44:28There are 20,000 people work for the Trump Organisation.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31Presumably they do not all hold his views.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35So it is not they or the areas that he has his businesses
0:44:35 > 0:44:39that should be disadvantaged. What he should do is apologise.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42He should apologise for views that are abhorrent,
0:44:42 > 0:44:45that are divisive, and have no place in our society.
0:44:45 > 0:44:48Which particular views, and to whom?
0:44:48 > 0:44:51Well, the views about banning Muslims.
0:44:51 > 0:44:56That is just... It is abhorrent. It's a ridiculous thing to suggest.
0:44:56 > 0:45:03And, at the end of the day, we share a lot across the ocean with America.
0:45:03 > 0:45:04We've exported Piers Morgan.
0:45:04 > 0:45:07I think some exports we might have quite happily left there.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10No, I've come back. I've been reimported.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13The woman here on my left. Yes.
0:45:13 > 0:45:14Hi.
0:45:14 > 0:45:18As Jacob Rees-Mogg said, in terms of people voting,
0:45:18 > 0:45:20the people's vote is the true vote,
0:45:20 > 0:45:23if the people of America vote for Donald Trump,
0:45:23 > 0:45:25then that's what they deserve.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29- Jacob?- I think the lady is absolutely right that
0:45:29 > 0:45:31we have to trust democracy.
0:45:31 > 0:45:33I would say two other things.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36First of all, I think we overstate the special relationship,
0:45:36 > 0:45:39and that we think we have a very strong relationship with the US
0:45:39 > 0:45:42and the US doesn't lose a lot of sleep over what the
0:45:42 > 0:45:45United Kingdom thinks, and I think we should be cautious about that.
0:45:45 > 0:45:50The second is that I think we have a tendency to think
0:45:50 > 0:45:53all American presidents are deeply stupid.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56We thought that of Ronald Reagan, we thought that of George Bush Jr.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59- Obama?- We don't think that of Obama, but we thought
0:45:59 > 0:46:05of Bill Clinton that he had certain problems in the fidelity area.
0:46:05 > 0:46:06It doesn't make him stupid.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09- It doesn't make him stupid. - Not necessarily stupid.
0:46:09 > 0:46:13- But we like to look down on American Presidents...- Incautious, perhaps.
0:46:13 > 0:46:17..because of the way they appeal to their electorates
0:46:17 > 0:46:19and they appeal to their electorates in ways that are too
0:46:19 > 0:46:23populist for the British political system, and we don't like,
0:46:23 > 0:46:26and they say things which go down very badly here.
0:46:26 > 0:46:31But if you want to give a great boost to Mr Trump's campaign,
0:46:31 > 0:46:33ban him from coming to the UK,
0:46:33 > 0:46:36because it would run so badly in the US,
0:46:36 > 0:46:38they would think the UK had no business
0:46:38 > 0:46:40banning an American presidential candidate.
0:46:40 > 0:46:43It would boost his support, it would mean that somebody
0:46:43 > 0:46:45who we think it will be difficult to deal with,
0:46:45 > 0:46:47who is friends with Mr Morgan and Mr Putin,
0:46:47 > 0:46:49so he keeps very fine company...
0:46:49 > 0:46:53APPLAUSE
0:46:53 > 0:46:58- That is a low blow, Rees-Mogg. - I meant it in a friendly way.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01Are you likening me to the Russian dictator? Come on!
0:47:01 > 0:47:04You are a very powerful figure.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06The gentleman there with the spectacles and the moustache.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09I think if he is democratically elected
0:47:09 > 0:47:11he should not be banned from coming.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14There is loads of leaders all over the world who have said things
0:47:14 > 0:47:17or believe in things that we don't agree with.
0:47:17 > 0:47:19And you think we could get on with him as President?
0:47:19 > 0:47:22- That was what was behind the question.- Sure.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25Because that particular aspect is one aspect of many aspects
0:47:25 > 0:47:28that a president carries. But what I do fear, though,
0:47:28 > 0:47:31is that if those are his genuine beliefs,
0:47:31 > 0:47:33going back to the previous question,
0:47:33 > 0:47:38he could then become a catalyst for radicalisation,
0:47:38 > 0:47:41if he expresses his views in these terms.
0:47:41 > 0:47:45And the man behind you. Yes, you, sir.
0:47:45 > 0:47:47I was going to say that in terms of the previous
0:47:47 > 0:47:49question about radicalisation,
0:47:49 > 0:47:53this is a man who has got an audience of 300 million in America
0:47:53 > 0:47:56and the world now, and he's beating his chest saying,
0:47:56 > 0:47:59"Muslims, don't come into my country."
0:47:59 > 0:48:01He's saying he's going to...
0:48:01 > 0:48:04- What's he going to say...? He's going to...- Ban.- ..ban mosques,
0:48:04 > 0:48:06he's going to close mosques.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08He's making Muslims the enemy within America.
0:48:08 > 0:48:09CLAPPING STARTS
0:48:09 > 0:48:12So those who are on the edge,
0:48:12 > 0:48:16of sanity, and about to be radicalised, that's him.
0:48:16 > 0:48:19- That's the message.- Emily Thornberry, then I'll come to you.
0:48:19 > 0:48:21I think we have had presidents
0:48:21 > 0:48:24in the past that have been ignorant of world affairs,
0:48:24 > 0:48:28have not known very much about the world outside America.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30We've had American presidents
0:48:30 > 0:48:34who I don't think have been particularly bright.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37We haven't yet had a president of the United States
0:48:37 > 0:48:41who indulges in cheap and nasty racist slurs.
0:48:41 > 0:48:44APPLAUSE
0:48:44 > 0:48:47There've been quite a few who supported slavery historically.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:48:50 > 0:48:52All right, guys.
0:48:52 > 0:48:56In my lifetime. But it is now...
0:48:56 > 0:48:59But the idea that we might have someone like Donald Trump
0:48:59 > 0:49:03being President of the United States is I think frankly appalling.
0:49:03 > 0:49:05It is appalling. Of course it will
0:49:05 > 0:49:08affect the relationship between Britain and America.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11If it didn't, I would think much less of this country.
0:49:11 > 0:49:15I certainly hope that if he does get the Republican nomination, and it
0:49:15 > 0:49:16looks like he might,
0:49:16 > 0:49:19but who knows, their polls might be as bad as ours...
0:49:19 > 0:49:22If he does become their nominee, Hillary Clinton
0:49:22 > 0:49:25will become the first President of the United States,
0:49:25 > 0:49:27and wouldn't that be fantastic?
0:49:27 > 0:49:30The first woman President of the United States.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32And she certainly knows about world affairs,
0:49:32 > 0:49:35she's certainly bright, she's been through the mill,
0:49:35 > 0:49:38she's as tough as anything and she would be an excellent President.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40You, sir, last point and we'll take
0:49:40 > 0:49:44- another question.- Yes, as President he'd obviously be allowed in...
0:49:44 > 0:49:47I think he just needs educating and introduced to a few Muslims over
0:49:47 > 0:49:50here. He's got this wrong idea that certain parts of London are no-go
0:49:50 > 0:49:52areas, where police are frightened of Muslims.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55He just needs educating.
0:49:55 > 0:49:56APPLAUSE
0:49:56 > 0:49:59Maybe he should come over.
0:49:59 > 0:50:03I think we've got time for one more question, which we must have, given
0:50:03 > 0:50:07where we are. Duncan Reid, please.
0:50:07 > 0:50:11Will Heathrow expansion provide the promised number of jobs,
0:50:11 > 0:50:14and can this justify the cost to the environment?
0:50:14 > 0:50:17This is the building of another runway at Heathrow,
0:50:17 > 0:50:20the Prime Minister is deferring a judgment until after the summer.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23Will it provide the jobs, can it justify the cost to the environment?
0:50:23 > 0:50:27- What's your view?- Heathrow Airport Ltd hasn't complained that the
0:50:27 > 0:50:31Davies Commission report has happily traded the shortening
0:50:31 > 0:50:33of people's lives for profit. That cannot be right.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37You think it is the shortening of people's lives for profit?
0:50:37 > 0:50:39Who'd like to go on this on Heathrow?
0:50:39 > 0:50:42Emily Thornberry, you were just talking, Mark Reckless,
0:50:42 > 0:50:43- you start on this one.- Good.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46I will start again, and be criticised for this,
0:50:46 > 0:50:48- with a point about the European Union.- Oh, no, please!
0:50:48 > 0:50:50LAUGHTER
0:50:50 > 0:50:51Jose Mourinho!
0:50:51 > 0:50:54The reason David Cameron, our Prime Minister,
0:50:54 > 0:50:58has said he is going to delay for another six months taking a decision
0:50:58 > 0:51:02is to see whether Heathrow could have a third runway yet still
0:51:02 > 0:51:05meet the European Union legislation on nitrogen dioxin emissions.
0:51:05 > 0:51:08Very dangerous, kills a lot of people,
0:51:08 > 0:51:10partly because of all these diesel engines
0:51:10 > 0:51:14that again the European Union has encouraged through its regulations
0:51:14 > 0:51:16and allowed to come onto our roads
0:51:16 > 0:51:20despite being nowhere near meeting their own...
0:51:20 > 0:51:24- What's your answer to the question? - That's where we are on Heathrow.
0:51:24 > 0:51:29- And that's it?- No, no-one knows if you can build a third runway,
0:51:29 > 0:51:33because the legislation and what they pass in Europe is so unclear,
0:51:33 > 0:51:37that this massive decision for our economy is held up.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40What I believe and what Ukip believes is instead of expanding
0:51:40 > 0:51:43Heathrow, we should have a second runway at Gatwick.
0:51:43 > 0:51:47Allow Gatwick to compete with Heathrow,
0:51:47 > 0:51:50- and that we should get on with doing it.- All right, thank you.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52The woman in the third row.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55What's your view?
0:51:55 > 0:51:58I just wondered whether the panel believes that the decision on
0:51:58 > 0:52:02Heathrow and the can being kicked down the road has got anything to
0:52:02 > 0:52:08do with the London mayoral elections.
0:52:08 > 0:52:09Perish the thought.
0:52:09 > 0:52:12Jacob Rees-Mogg, you know the inside workings of the Tory party.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14I-I wish I did.
0:52:14 > 0:52:17I think that's a shockingly cynical view and I can't imagine such
0:52:17 > 0:52:20a thought will have entered the Prime Minister's head.
0:52:20 > 0:52:24But if I may answer the main question... I think we absolutely
0:52:24 > 0:52:26ought to extend Heathrow.
0:52:26 > 0:52:30Heathrow is THE most convenient London airport.
0:52:30 > 0:52:33I realise in Slough this may not please everybody.
0:52:33 > 0:52:38I used to live near Slough with the aeroplanes going over
0:52:38 > 0:52:41and I confess they didn't prove too bothersome them.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44- Eton, was that?- Absolutely right. I...
0:52:44 > 0:52:48APPLAUSE
0:52:48 > 0:52:51LAUGHTER
0:52:53 > 0:52:56I was at school with your son.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59LAUGHTER
0:52:59 > 0:53:01Fantastic!
0:53:01 > 0:53:06But I think it is crucially important economically...
0:53:06 > 0:53:09That was a brilliant thing.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12That's the best thing I've seen him take in a long time.
0:53:12 > 0:53:16Let's get back to the important topic of Heathrow rather than my
0:53:16 > 0:53:20and Henry Dimbleby's education.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23We need a functional airport, that is close to London,
0:53:23 > 0:53:27is well-connected, allows us to compete internationally,
0:53:27 > 0:53:29has all the routes to China and the Far East.
0:53:29 > 0:53:33And every project we come up with is stopped by a particle,
0:53:33 > 0:53:36a bat, a badger or a newt.
0:53:36 > 0:53:37- And we can't allow...- What?
0:53:37 > 0:53:41- There is always some environmental thing.- A badger and a newt?
0:53:41 > 0:53:43Newts stop endless building projects.
0:53:43 > 0:53:46We can't build roads because of a newt.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48We can't build a house because of a bat.
0:53:48 > 0:53:52What about people and the needs of our economy of the British people?
0:53:52 > 0:53:54OK. I want some audience views.
0:53:54 > 0:53:56Man in the blue tie. You sir, yes.
0:53:56 > 0:53:57Quick views from the audience. I want
0:53:57 > 0:54:00to bring everybody in. We've only got three minutes left. Fire away.
0:54:00 > 0:54:04Why is nobody looking at the big picture?
0:54:04 > 0:54:07Boris has suggested an airport in the estuary,
0:54:07 > 0:54:12and moving it there would cost a lot of money, create a lot of space,
0:54:12 > 0:54:16very valuable real estate at Heathrow,
0:54:16 > 0:54:19create a lot of jobs in Essex.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21It can be connected.
0:54:21 > 0:54:27A lot of money, but a new garden city at Heathrow will house up to
0:54:27 > 0:54:30a quarter of a million people, a new Canary Wharf,
0:54:30 > 0:54:33larger than that, it would be a fantastic asset.
0:54:33 > 0:54:36- That is the long view.- Emily Thornberry, do you agree?
0:54:36 > 0:54:40I think the Boris Island was always discredited.
0:54:40 > 0:54:45The moment he said it, it was one of Boris's fantasies. But...
0:54:45 > 0:54:48- He says you haven't looked at it. - Have you really studied it?
0:54:48 > 0:54:52There were many studies of Boris Island and they would come back and
0:54:52 > 0:54:54say to Boris, "It doesn't work."
0:54:54 > 0:54:58Boris would say, "I will commission somebody else." Somebody else would
0:54:58 > 0:55:01- have a look at it. It isn't viable. - Have you looked at it?
0:55:01 > 0:55:05- So the answer...- And it is very unpopular in Rochester.
0:55:05 > 0:55:08The answer I want to give is the fact that
0:55:08 > 0:55:11studies show that 10,000 Londoners' lives
0:55:11 > 0:55:13have been shortened as a result of pollution.
0:55:13 > 0:55:17In those circumstances, it isn't a particle, it is people's lives.
0:55:18 > 0:55:23We have seen the Supreme Court saying the area around Heathrow
0:55:23 > 0:55:26breaches the EU air-quality directive.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29- All right.- We have to look at that before deciding
0:55:29 > 0:55:31whether we have another runway.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34The woman on the gangway over there.
0:55:34 > 0:55:35This is because of diesel.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38If we had stuck to petrol engines we would not have this problem,
0:55:38 > 0:55:41so we ought to re-encourage petrol and get away from diesel.
0:55:41 > 0:55:43Can you run aeroplanes on petrol?
0:55:43 > 0:55:44No, no, the diesel in cars,
0:55:44 > 0:55:47causing pollution when people go to the airport.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49- Right.- It is not the pollution from the aeroplanes.
0:55:49 > 0:55:51OK. The woman on the gangway.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55The expansion of Heathrow will add £100 billion to the economy
0:55:55 > 0:55:59and the top two thirds of businesses use Heathrow to import and export.
0:55:59 > 0:56:02Is that not helping the economy?
0:56:02 > 0:56:05So you are in favour. All right, Piers Morgan.
0:56:05 > 0:56:08In the time we have dithered over this and in the time it will take
0:56:08 > 0:56:12for any decision to come after endless enquiries which establish
0:56:12 > 0:56:14another enquiry,
0:56:14 > 0:56:18China has built 80 new airports,
0:56:18 > 0:56:21never mind just extra runways.
0:56:21 > 0:56:25The reason Europe is seen to be in decline, which it indisputably
0:56:25 > 0:56:28is around the world, is precisely because of this kind of nonsense.
0:56:28 > 0:56:32Heathrow is a world-class airport, a massive asset to this country.
0:56:32 > 0:56:36Frankly, we should be looking at not just one new runway,
0:56:36 > 0:56:40probably two, and I would build another spanking new airport
0:56:40 > 0:56:44just outside the M25 with travel into central London.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47And I would make ourselves the European hub for anyone
0:56:47 > 0:56:51coming from America, China, or the Middle East or wherever.
0:56:51 > 0:56:55And I would do this fast, so we can seize the moment and not let,
0:56:55 > 0:56:58as Willie Walsh, I saw the BA guy this week
0:56:58 > 0:57:01saying, "We'll take our business to other countries."
0:57:01 > 0:57:04- OK.- This is a dangerous situation for our economy.
0:57:04 > 0:57:06APPLAUSE
0:57:06 > 0:57:09We are over time, I'm afraid. Hannah, I'll bring you in.
0:57:09 > 0:57:10No, no, I can't... Hannah.
0:57:10 > 0:57:14Boris Johnson said he would lie down in front of the bulldozers
0:57:14 > 0:57:15if it came to it.
0:57:15 > 0:57:18If that is not a win-win, I don't know what is.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21- Hannah.- I will solve the problem. Just bring it to Scotland.
0:57:21 > 0:57:24Fine. On which note, thank you very much.
0:57:24 > 0:57:26I'm sorry to those who had your hands up.
0:57:26 > 0:57:30We're overrunning and we have to stop or we get our knuckles rapped
0:57:30 > 0:57:34on this programme. If it were a show,
0:57:34 > 0:57:37no doubt we'd be allowed to go on as long as we want.
0:57:37 > 0:57:43- If it was a show, I would be hosting it!- Well, your day may come.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45We will be in London for
0:57:45 > 0:57:48the next programme on January 14th,
0:57:48 > 0:57:50and Belfast the week after.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52If you want to come,
0:57:52 > 0:57:55you can apply through the website.
0:57:55 > 0:57:56The address is on the screen.
0:57:56 > 0:57:59Or you can call...
0:57:59 > 0:58:01Radio 5 Live listeners,
0:58:01 > 0:58:04the debate continues on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:04 > 0:58:06But for here, my thanks to our panel,
0:58:06 > 0:58:10to all of you who came here to Slough to take part in this programme,
0:58:10 > 0:58:12a very happy Christmas to everyone
0:58:12 > 0:58:14and see you again in the New Year. Goodnight.