0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight we're in London, and this is Question Time.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Welcome to the first edition of 2016,
0:00:14 > 0:00:16whether you're watching on television,
0:00:16 > 0:00:20listening on Radio 5 Live, welcome to our audience here,
0:00:20 > 0:00:24and of course to our panel sitting round our shiny new table.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27The Conservative Skills Minister Nick Boles,
0:00:27 > 0:00:28Labour's Cat Smith,
0:00:28 > 0:00:32who worked for Jeremy Corbyn, was elected an MP last year,
0:00:32 > 0:00:34and is now Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities,
0:00:34 > 0:00:38the Ukip MEP Patrick O'Flynn, who stood down
0:00:38 > 0:00:43as the party's economics spokesman after criticising Nigel Farage,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46the Sunday Times journalist and film critic Camilla Long,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49and the Sun columnist and former editor, Kelvin MacKenzie.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51APPLAUSE
0:01:02 > 0:01:04And I should as always just remind you,
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0:01:19 > 0:01:21So let the argument begin,
0:01:21 > 0:01:26and our first question tonight from Richard Salmon, please.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30Are junior doctors justified in taking strike action?
0:01:30 > 0:01:32Very straightforward, simple first question for the year.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Are junior doctors justified in taking strike action?
0:01:36 > 0:01:37Nick Boles.
0:01:37 > 0:01:38Well, the first thing to say is of course
0:01:38 > 0:01:40they absolutely have the right to.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43I'm disappointed that they've chosen to,
0:01:43 > 0:01:47and I fear that they have been misled by the BMA leadership.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49Because what we're trying to propose
0:01:49 > 0:01:53is a new contract that is safer than the existing contract.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57The existing contract allows junior doctors to work
0:01:57 > 0:02:03for 91 hours in a week - that is six 15-hour days, and that is unsafe.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05The new contract we propose
0:02:05 > 0:02:07would allow them to work 72 hours a week,
0:02:07 > 0:02:10would reduce the numbers of consecutive nights,
0:02:10 > 0:02:12reduce the number of consecutive weekends,
0:02:12 > 0:02:15and I believe it would be a safer contract,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19but also, it would give junior doctors the same level of pay
0:02:19 > 0:02:22as they are getting now unless they're working unsafe hours.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25We're not trying to save money on this contract -
0:02:25 > 0:02:28we're trying to make a safer contract that will deliver
0:02:28 > 0:02:31a seven-day-a-week NHS, and I hope we can persuade junior doctors
0:02:31 > 0:02:36to ignore the BMA, to come back to work and agree on a new contract.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38APPLAUSE
0:02:41 > 0:02:45Boris Johnson said the BMA was in the grip of advanced Corbynitis.
0:02:45 > 0:02:46Is that your view of them?
0:02:46 > 0:02:48Well, I mean, I think it is
0:02:48 > 0:02:52true that a large number of people involved with the BMA leadership
0:02:52 > 0:02:55are very much self-identified as left-wing people.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58But I don't want to insult junior doctors, who after all
0:02:58 > 0:03:01are some of the most qualified and educated people in the land, with
0:03:01 > 0:03:04thinking that they're not making up their own minds about this.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07I just fear that sometimes the information given to them
0:03:07 > 0:03:08has not been strictly accurate.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11There was a calculator on the BMA website
0:03:11 > 0:03:14which they have now taken down because it was misleading.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17It was pretending that certain things were going to happen
0:03:17 > 0:03:20under our proposals that were not going to happen, and it's important
0:03:20 > 0:03:22that people are given the true information
0:03:22 > 0:03:24- before making their choices.- OK.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27A point from you and then I come to Cat Smith. Yes.
0:03:27 > 0:03:28I'm a junior doctor,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31and I would very much like to say I have not been misled by the BMA.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33I have...
0:03:33 > 0:03:37My medical training gives me the opportunity to evaluate
0:03:37 > 0:03:40evidence, and I have looked at the government's proposals,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43and I have looked at what the BMA have said, and so, categorically,
0:03:43 > 0:03:4998% of the people that voted for a strike were not misled by the BMA.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52Secondly, I would like to say we all want a safe contract,
0:03:52 > 0:03:55and thank you for saying that we want a safe contract.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57There are two main issues regarding the contract
0:03:57 > 0:04:00which are particularly concerning junior doctors.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03The first one is the safeguards that are currently in place,
0:04:03 > 0:04:08which the current Health Secretary proposes to take away.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10I know that he suggests that there is a guardian
0:04:10 > 0:04:11that will be put into place,
0:04:11 > 0:04:16however, currently we have financial penalties that are put on trusts.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19If junior doctors as a group of junior doctors are seen to be
0:04:19 > 0:04:22overworking, these trusts face financial penalties -
0:04:22 > 0:04:24these will be taken away.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27The current proposals do not offer that.
0:04:27 > 0:04:28- All right...- The current...
0:04:28 > 0:04:31Can I just say, the current proposals also do not
0:04:31 > 0:04:35show that there is a robust mechanism to ensure safeguards.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38Thirdly, the current proposals do not say that this is
0:04:38 > 0:04:41an independent guardian that will be jointly appointed with the BMA.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44A lot of points there, and I'm not sure people will follow them all.
0:04:44 > 0:04:45APPLAUSE
0:04:45 > 0:04:46Camilla Long.
0:04:50 > 0:04:51Um...
0:04:51 > 0:04:54I'm afraid I would have to say that I'm completely horrified
0:04:54 > 0:04:56that doctors are prepared to strike.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59I think it's...
0:04:59 > 0:05:02You know, doctors took an oath, the Hippocratic oath that they
0:05:02 > 0:05:06would not do anything to bring harm to their patients, and I think
0:05:06 > 0:05:10they have totally abandoned the duty of care by doing so.
0:05:10 > 0:05:14Um... I find it very, very difficult to get past this point.
0:05:14 > 0:05:15I don't understand how, as a doctor,
0:05:15 > 0:05:19you would be perfectly happy to leave your...
0:05:19 > 0:05:24You know, your patients, and even go up to the point where
0:05:24 > 0:05:27emergency services are potentially going to be affected by this.
0:05:27 > 0:05:33Um... I think it's a disgrace, the way that both Jeremy Hunt and the
0:05:33 > 0:05:36junior doctors have allowed this to become a political football.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Nowhere else in the world does health care become
0:05:39 > 0:05:41politicised in this way.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Um...and I think...you know...
0:05:43 > 0:05:45Yes! What would you like to say to me?
0:05:45 > 0:05:48- I would like to say to you, have you been to...- No, you've had your say.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52Do you think, when she says it's dangerous what is being suggested...
0:05:52 > 0:05:55- And I'll tell you...- When she says it's dangerous, is it wrong,
0:05:55 > 0:05:59- even in those circumstances, to strike?- Um...
0:05:59 > 0:06:02Yes, I think it's wrong to strike because I think that when you
0:06:02 > 0:06:06strike, you are definitely putting your patients at risk, whereas...
0:06:06 > 0:06:07All right.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10- You know, there's... You don't quite know.- All right. Cat Smith.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13Nobody wants to see our junior doctors on strike, least of all
0:06:13 > 0:06:15those junior doctors, because the junior doctors I know...
0:06:15 > 0:06:16APPLAUSE
0:06:16 > 0:06:19..went into that profession to care for people.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24I don't know any junior doctors who went into it for the money -
0:06:24 > 0:06:27they went into it to support people in their hour of need.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30The BMA is not a radical trade union.
0:06:30 > 0:06:34This is a trade union that has not been on strike for 40 years.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37This strike has been pushed by Jeremy Hunt,
0:06:37 > 0:06:40the Tory Health Secretary, who is refusing to get
0:06:40 > 0:06:44back around the negotiating table and speak to the junior doctors,
0:06:44 > 0:06:48who frankly are doing this because they want their patients to be safe.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50They don't want to be working longer hours.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52We don't want to go back to the bad old days of the 1990s...
0:06:52 > 0:06:56- But don't you understand that to the person in the street... - ..with tired doctors.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58First, we don't know...what the doctors are striking about.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01- They've been very clear. - To me, no...
0:07:01 > 0:07:02- BOOING - They have been very, very clear.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06To me it looks like you are striking about money, striking about pay.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08- No, let's be clear...- Which is...
0:07:08 > 0:07:10This is a strike that has been called...
0:07:10 > 0:07:12No, to the person on the street, that's what it looks like.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15..with the vast support of junior doctors, because the contract that's
0:07:15 > 0:07:19being offered is going to force junior doctors to work longer hours,
0:07:19 > 0:07:23because the financial incentive currently in place to stop hospitals
0:07:23 > 0:07:26overworking our junior doctors is not included in this contract.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29And as for junior doctors who are on strike, well, actually,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32a lot of them are unable to go on strike cos they're scheduled
0:07:32 > 0:07:34to work emergency hours, and I've seen examples.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38This woman here is indicating that she's one of these junior doctors.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40And there's been junior doctors on picket lines who have left
0:07:40 > 0:07:43those picket lines to support people with first aid,
0:07:43 > 0:07:45because actually, what they want is the best for the NHS
0:07:45 > 0:07:47and the best for the patients that...
0:07:47 > 0:07:50Well, they can't, they simply can't, because they're striking.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52APPLAUSE
0:07:52 > 0:07:54The man up there with spectacles at the back,
0:07:54 > 0:07:56in the second row from the back - you, sir. Yes.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Hi, yeah.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02I come from both angles, cos I'm a patient, and actually having
0:08:02 > 0:08:05appointments at the weekend would be very, very convenient to me.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08I also have a girlfriend who's a junior doctor.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13And I think generally as a society we don't value doctors enough,
0:08:13 > 0:08:16and actually, those comments, Camilla,
0:08:16 > 0:08:20all they do is make doctors feel like they're...
0:08:20 > 0:08:23they're underappreciated.
0:08:23 > 0:08:29And they make them feel like they don't actually want to do the job.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32And surely, we as a society
0:08:32 > 0:08:36don't want our doctors to... to feel like that.
0:08:36 > 0:08:41I mean, Camilla, would you want to be treated by a doctor
0:08:41 > 0:08:45who felt they were undervalued and underpaid?
0:08:45 > 0:08:46Um...
0:08:46 > 0:08:49No, obviously I wouldn't want to be treated by a doctor who felt
0:08:49 > 0:08:51undervalued and underpaid.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54However, I really don't believe that we're...you know...
0:08:54 > 0:08:57I spoke to a friend of mine who is a junior doctor yesterday,
0:08:57 > 0:08:58and he was perfectly honest with me,
0:08:58 > 0:09:02and he said what it came down to was the terms of the pay,
0:09:02 > 0:09:06and the fact of the matter is, because the pay is not good enough,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09they're going to have to work extra hours in order to make it up.
0:09:09 > 0:09:10OK. Patrick O'Flynn.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13I just have to disagree with the gentleman in the audience
0:09:13 > 0:09:14who says doctors are undervalued.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16I think if you look at the opinion polls,
0:09:16 > 0:09:19doctors are held in incredibly high esteem,
0:09:19 > 0:09:23and the NHS is the most popular public service in the world.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27But with such high esteem I do think comes a level of responsibility,
0:09:27 > 0:09:29including, actually, on government ministers,
0:09:29 > 0:09:33that it's not unreasonable when we deliver health care the way
0:09:33 > 0:09:35we do in this country - which is fantastic
0:09:35 > 0:09:38and which is part of who we are as a country - that the
0:09:38 > 0:09:42people on the political side who are accountable for the spending try and
0:09:42 > 0:09:46make sure that it modernises, that it keeps pace with the times, right?
0:09:46 > 0:09:49So delivering "a seven-day-a-week NHS,"
0:09:49 > 0:09:51slightly insulting, because of course it IS seven days,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54but he means at an appropriate and even level of resources
0:09:54 > 0:09:57and care - that's not an unreasonable aspiration, right?
0:09:57 > 0:09:59But the problem is,
0:09:59 > 0:10:03the NHS now is under enormous strain with increased demand.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07The time to do these reforms, I think, was 15 years ago
0:10:07 > 0:10:11when all the money was pouring in under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown
0:10:11 > 0:10:14and the contracts drawn up then were widely perceived
0:10:14 > 0:10:17to have wrecked productivity in the NHS.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19So I think at the moment, Jeremy Hunt,
0:10:19 > 0:10:21I don't think he's ill-meaning,
0:10:21 > 0:10:24but the government needs to identify extra resources.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27It made blithe comments during the election about eight billion
0:10:27 > 0:10:28a year extra without a plan.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31We in Ukip were going to put a third of the net savings
0:10:31 > 0:10:34from leaving the EU - three billion a year extra - in.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37We would look at putting some of the foreign aid savings
0:10:37 > 0:10:39into actually funding the NHS,
0:10:39 > 0:10:41so he's asking it to run when it's struggling to walk
0:10:41 > 0:10:45because of the sheer demand on the NHS and people who work in it.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47The person up there on the third row from the back.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49Yes, you.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52- I'm also a junior doctor... - You're a junior doctor?- ..as well...
0:10:52 > 0:10:55Is there anybody in the audience who isn't a junior doctor(?)
0:10:55 > 0:10:56LAUGHTER
0:10:56 > 0:10:59..and I just want to go back to this seven-day services issue.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02We provide a seven-day emergency service.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05In the press, again and again and again, and coming
0:11:05 > 0:11:09from the government, there has been this demand for a seven-day service.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11We provide a seven-day emergency service.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14What is not provided is a seven-day elective service.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17If that was to be provided, our finite resource - we are
0:11:17 > 0:11:19a finite resource of trained doctors - would be
0:11:19 > 0:11:22spread over six or seven days instead of five at the same level.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25APPLAUSE Just explain - elective service.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27So this is things like outpatient clinics
0:11:27 > 0:11:30and nonemergency surgery.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33So, the number of doctors working,
0:11:33 > 0:11:37at the moment, we do have fewer doctors at the weekends
0:11:37 > 0:11:39because they are providing emergency services only.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42If we were to be spread throughout the seven days,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45that would deplete our numbers, Monday to Friday.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49That would sacrifice patient safety, because we are pushed already.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52OK, well, let's just take that point. Kelvin MacKenzie.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54Well, I presume you could hire more doctors.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56There's nothing wrong in doing that.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59I think one of the issues that has emerged in all this
0:11:59 > 0:12:01is the enormous hours which doctors work.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05I mean, the idea of 92 hours being reduced to 72,
0:12:05 > 0:12:09I don't want to see a junior doctor at a hospital.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11I mean, by the way, when you use the word junior doctor,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13you mean junior doctor after registrar.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16I mean, you start at 23,000, you go up to 70,000.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19It's not as though you're on Poverty Street.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23The issue I have here is, I would be in favour of reducing
0:12:23 > 0:12:27the 72 hours down to what I consider a normal working week,
0:12:27 > 0:12:29which would be 50 or 55.
0:12:29 > 0:12:33Do you want to be treated by a doctor that has done 92 hours?
0:12:33 > 0:12:38I am wholly and completely in line with Jeremy Hunt on this issue.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42The truth about the matter is that the doctors...
0:12:42 > 0:12:47There is about, apparently, 1% of the doctors, junior doctors,
0:12:47 > 0:12:51actually work these kinds of hours in order to get the overtime money.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55That day must end. You've had an 11...
0:12:55 > 0:12:57I mean, there's enough of you in the audience,
0:12:57 > 0:12:59enough junior doctors in the audience.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01I've never seen so many doctors in my life.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03You got an 11% pay hike,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06you're already on something between 23 and 70,000.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10As far as I'm concerned, I have never seen the NHS better,
0:13:10 > 0:13:14either at GP level or at hospital level, for my immediate family.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18It's utterly fantastic and my advice is get back to work,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20take what you can in this latest round of talks,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23which I think are going on today, and get back to work.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25If I were Jeremy Hunt, I'd turf you out,
0:13:25 > 0:13:28because I don't think you've got the public on your side
0:13:28 > 0:13:31and I think this strike is on the edge of collapsing.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33AUDIENCE BOOS
0:13:33 > 0:13:35SOME APPLAUSE
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Let me hear from someone... You were applauding that point.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41Do you want to, what's your view about it? The man in the very front.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44If I get sick at the weekend, I want to be treated at the weekend.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48And I don't believe that doctors, who are very well paid,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50I don't believe that I should have...
0:13:50 > 0:13:54There's more chance of me dying at the weekend, so that's a fact.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56- WOMAN IN AUDIENCE:- It's not true. This is not true.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Doctors, doctors, please, stop waving your arms about.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03I find it a bit irritating that doctors are interfering with
0:14:03 > 0:14:06- patients who are trying to say something.- Sorry.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08I don't think that... The facts are there,
0:14:08 > 0:14:12- people do die, are more likely to die at the weekend...- No.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14..because there's not enough consultants
0:14:14 > 0:14:18- and relevant doctors in hospitals, so that's why.- OK.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21Are there any more patients rather than doctors who want to just
0:14:21 > 0:14:24comment on this? Because clearly we've got more than...
0:14:24 > 0:14:25Yes, you, sir.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28I just think it's reflective of the cynicism of our government
0:14:28 > 0:14:31where they're prepared to go after good, noble doctors who are there to
0:14:31 > 0:14:35give a service, and they're saying that they're not being paid enough.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Well, I'm happy to see doctors paid a lot of money
0:14:37 > 0:14:39cos they do a job which I'm happy to pay for,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42rather than someone in the City making money for the sake of it.
0:14:42 > 0:14:44- It's absurd, the cynicism you have. - APPLAUSE
0:14:44 > 0:14:48- Ridiculous.- I'll come to you first. Yes, brief point.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50I would like to just challenge Camilla and...
0:14:50 > 0:14:52- I beg your pardon, I can't remember your name.- Nick.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55Horrified that you should be misleading our public,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58might I say, and with you, I think
0:14:58 > 0:15:01this issue about the BMA misleading us,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05I want to point out to the public of this country that Jeremy Hunt and
0:15:05 > 0:15:10the government have systematically misled the entire country.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13This man talking about dying at the weekend,
0:15:13 > 0:15:16I am horrified to hear that.
0:15:16 > 0:15:17Really.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19People have actually died
0:15:19 > 0:15:24because of what Jeremy Hunt has said in Parliament about 11,000 deaths
0:15:24 > 0:15:27each year, which he attributes to junior doctors.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31I am so sad that you have taken that on from this government.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33It is not true.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35The paper that he quoted from, let me tell you,
0:15:35 > 0:15:40he got the data a month before that paper came out. Let's ask why.
0:15:41 > 0:15:46What he regarded as a weekend was a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50That is not a weekend. A weekend is Saturday and Sunday, is it not?
0:15:50 > 0:15:53He said that people were dying on Saturdays and Sunday.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56Now, if you look at that paper, on a Saturday and a Sunday,
0:15:56 > 0:15:58actually less people were dying,
0:15:58 > 0:16:02and he spoke about it as though we were only speaking about people
0:16:02 > 0:16:05dying on the weekends, when the paper looked at 30 days.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08- Don't wag your finger at me, I think you've made the point.- Sorry.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10APPLAUSE Chris Boles.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Nick Boles, sorry. Nick Boles.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18Nobody seems to know my name, but that doesn't matter.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20I'm sure that this evening there are going to be occasions
0:16:20 > 0:16:23when I'm going to be asked to defend cuts in public spending,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26and I just think it is kind of important that everybody
0:16:26 > 0:16:30understands that if the contract that we are proposing
0:16:30 > 0:16:33comes into force, we will not save a penny.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36The amount that we spend on junior doctors' pay
0:16:36 > 0:16:40will not be one penny less than it is now,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43so how can it be such an appalling contract
0:16:43 > 0:16:46if it's not going to be saving any money
0:16:46 > 0:16:52and it's going to be reducing maximum hours from 91 to 72?
0:16:52 > 0:16:57The truth is that what we're trying to do is to even the patterns
0:16:57 > 0:16:58of work so that, yes,
0:16:58 > 0:17:03there are more junior doctors working during normal hours,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06during the weekend, and obviously there is a debate about these
0:17:06 > 0:17:10figures, but I think that there are lots of people who do
0:17:10 > 0:17:13believe these figures, which suggest that you are
0:17:13 > 0:17:1720% more likely to die from a stroke
0:17:17 > 0:17:20if you have that stroke at a weekend,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24that you are more likely, in childbirth, to lose a child
0:17:24 > 0:17:27if you have your child at the weekend.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30And I think that a lot of us know from our own lives that, frankly,
0:17:30 > 0:17:34if you have something that isn't absolutely an emergency, you
0:17:34 > 0:17:36actually try and wait for the week, because you know that the
0:17:36 > 0:17:39consultant will be there, you know that it'll be the full depth
0:17:39 > 0:17:42of resource, that it won't be a junior anaesthesiologist, it will be
0:17:42 > 0:17:45a consultant anaesthesiologist who's looking after you.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47We are not trying to save money on this.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49We're putting more money in the NHS.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51We're just trying to get a better service for the British people
0:17:51 > 0:17:54who are paying a lot for the NHS.
0:17:54 > 0:17:55APPLAUSE
0:17:55 > 0:17:57Cat Smith.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00Just because, Nick, you believe something
0:18:00 > 0:18:02- does not mean that it's true. - APPLAUSE
0:18:02 > 0:18:04And we've heard from some junior doctors tonight
0:18:04 > 0:18:06who have made that very clear.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08When it comes to decisions about the NHS, I'm going
0:18:08 > 0:18:11to go with the junior doctors who work very hard in our NHS to
0:18:11 > 0:18:14deliver these services, and I just want to pick up on a few things.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16There were some comments made about the public support.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19Junior doctors, I do believe you've got the public support.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21I think that you absolutely have that...
0:18:21 > 0:18:22APPLAUSE
0:18:22 > 0:18:25..and you have my support on this issue.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28And as for this fact about weekends being more likely to die,
0:18:28 > 0:18:29it's nonsense.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32It was based on rubbish data, frankly,
0:18:32 > 0:18:34and also, to explain it in layman's terms,
0:18:34 > 0:18:39if you're sick on a Wednesday, then you don't think about it twice.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42You'll go along to hospital. But if you get sick at a weekend,
0:18:42 > 0:18:44there's quite a lot of evidence that suggests that you think twice,
0:18:44 > 0:18:46so by the time you arrive at that hospital,
0:18:46 > 0:18:49you're much sicker than you would have been had you arrived on a
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Wednesday, so that's why the figures might look slightly different.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55APPLAUSE
0:18:55 > 0:18:58- So if you had seven-day doctors... - You wouldn't have that.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00- ..and you felt sick, you'd be all right going in.- We do.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02We do have seven-day NHS.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Anyway, we're going to move on now because we've had an airing of that
0:19:05 > 0:19:09and we've got a lot of questions in the lists here,
0:19:09 > 0:19:13and we're not just negotiating this doctors' deal on Question Time.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16I should just say, by the way, if you want to come to Question Time,
0:19:16 > 0:19:20we're going to be in Belfast next week, and the week after that,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22we're going to be in Stamford in Lincolnshire.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26The details on the screen of how to apply, so do come if you'd like to.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29Abu Hassan, please, has our next question.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?
0:19:33 > 0:19:36Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?
0:19:36 > 0:19:39The question we're going to be all asked to answer this year or next.
0:19:39 > 0:19:40Camilla Long.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44Well, I would say that, erm...
0:19:44 > 0:19:50I'd like to preface this by saying that it's such a complicated
0:19:50 > 0:19:54and nuanced issue that even people who pretend to know what the
0:19:54 > 0:19:58answer to this question is, probably don't know the answer to it.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01I don't think any of us have read the Lisbon Treaty
0:20:01 > 0:20:04or the Treaty of Rome or anything like this, so over the next few
0:20:04 > 0:20:07months, you're going to hear a lot of people saying jump one way or
0:20:07 > 0:20:10the other, but actually not really know what they're talking about.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12- So what are you going to do for the next few months?- I would say...
0:20:12 > 0:20:16Are you going to read everything? Are you going to read the Lisbon Treaty?
0:20:16 > 0:20:19Yes, of course I am! No, I would say, I would...
0:20:19 > 0:20:22Looking at the economy of the country at the moment,
0:20:22 > 0:20:25I would say the best thing to do would be to remain,
0:20:25 > 0:20:27just because if things are going to become unstable in
0:20:27 > 0:20:29the next couple of years,
0:20:29 > 0:20:33we don't want an extra added problem at Brexit.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37We don't want to have to be negotiating our way
0:20:37 > 0:20:41to an isolated state with any downturn problems.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45We are still in economic difficulties.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48I think it would only complicate the matter and make things much,
0:20:48 > 0:20:50much more difficult.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53So you talk about everybody being ignorant,
0:20:53 > 0:20:55- but that's enough of a reason for you?- Yes.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58- I'm going to vote in it, so... - You are going to vote?- Yes.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00The man in the checked shirt?
0:21:00 > 0:21:02I would agree with some of that.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04I've tried to learn about the European Union myself,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06especially how the parliament works.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08There's a council of ministers, there's a commission
0:21:08 > 0:21:11and the whole procedure for how laws are passed,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13it is incredibly complicated.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16There are parts of it which are very, very simple.
0:21:16 > 0:21:20Are we in favour of mass non-selective, wide-open,
0:21:20 > 0:21:22double-door immigration in this country
0:21:22 > 0:21:24or do we want an immigration policy?
0:21:24 > 0:21:26Are we happy with an external political power
0:21:26 > 0:21:29imposing legislation without any of us getting to vote on it?
0:21:29 > 0:21:33Yes, there are complications, especially how the institutions work
0:21:33 > 0:21:37and so on, but there are some basic principles on the table
0:21:37 > 0:21:40which are very quite simple to understand and which people can
0:21:40 > 0:21:43take a view on and the answer is quite obvious in this case.
0:21:46 > 0:21:47Kelvin MacKenzie.
0:21:49 > 0:21:54Well, I've always been in favour of exiting Europe.
0:21:54 > 0:21:59I've never believed that individual nations
0:21:59 > 0:22:02can't create their own wealth and laws
0:22:02 > 0:22:07without somebody from across the water dictating to us.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11For instance, Japan or Australia or the United States,
0:22:11 > 0:22:13they don't have to be part of any collective.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18I suspect that the vote in,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20we'll say potentially Nick may know
0:22:20 > 0:22:22or the Prime Minister when he comes back,
0:22:22 > 0:22:27probably potentially in the summer or the autumn of this year,
0:22:27 > 0:22:32will say, "I've done my best and it's not quite good enough,
0:22:32 > 0:22:35"but I'm telling you as the Prime Minister that you should stay."
0:22:35 > 0:22:39That will be a very strong argument for ordinary people to hear it,
0:22:39 > 0:22:42I suspect from David Cameron, although I suspect
0:22:42 > 0:22:46if they heard it from Jeremy Corbyn they'd vote no at about 100mph.
0:22:47 > 0:22:52However, I have one question - I believe that the answer will be that
0:22:52 > 0:22:57the country right now would vote for remain.
0:22:57 > 0:23:03However, when and if the migration issues from the Middle East,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06which I saw the other day that
0:23:06 > 0:23:08the German interior minister forecast that
0:23:08 > 0:23:12the number might be as high as ten million this year.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14If it continued to develop
0:23:14 > 0:23:18and this happened with North Africa as well, I just wonder whether
0:23:18 > 0:23:23the migration issue will become so large that people would say,
0:23:23 > 0:23:26"Thank you very much, Mr Cameron, but actually,
0:23:26 > 0:23:31"we are concerned at the changing potential values and numbers
0:23:31 > 0:23:34"in our country," and that they might vote no.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38But at the moment, I would say that our country would vote yes.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42- OK, thank you very much. Anybody else here got a view? You, sir?- Yes.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46I don't quite understand how anyone can make a decision on this
0:23:46 > 0:23:48until we know what the deal is.
0:23:48 > 0:23:53What we have here is, the Prime Minister's negotiating
0:23:53 > 0:23:54and when he comes back,
0:23:54 > 0:23:58he'll give us a deal which we can actually vote on.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00If we don't know that deal,
0:24:00 > 0:24:03how can we say we want to be in or we don't want to be in?
0:24:03 > 0:24:06There were some people who'd say that regardless of the deal,
0:24:06 > 0:24:08it's better to be in, wouldn't there?
0:24:08 > 0:24:10Not everybody prescribes to the idea
0:24:10 > 0:24:12that you have got to have a renegotiation.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14If you are happy with the arrangement at the moment,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16then clearly you want to stay in.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18If you are unhappy, you don't.
0:24:18 > 0:24:20Whereas if you haven't heard
0:24:20 > 0:24:22the possibility of a better situation or not,
0:24:22 > 0:24:26- how can you make a decision? - Where do you stand on that?
0:24:26 > 0:24:30Do you think he could bring back something that would satisfy you
0:24:30 > 0:24:35- to stay in, or are you so sceptical about it...?- I stand with Boris.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38Boris is saying that if we get a deal
0:24:38 > 0:24:43which is better than we've got at the moment and is acceptable,
0:24:43 > 0:24:47then we'll stay in, and if we don't, and if it's some sort of a fudge,
0:24:47 > 0:24:49then, for me, I would be quite happy to move.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51When you say you stand with Boris,
0:24:51 > 0:24:54he's one of those politician's who's just become Boris now.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57Which of the many Borises in Parliament?
0:24:57 > 0:25:00- I think you know who I'm talking about.- I know.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03Person at the back there, yes?
0:25:03 > 0:25:09The exports that we make to the EU support four million jobs in
0:25:09 > 0:25:13the UK and contribute £200 billion to our economy a year.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16How would the panel propose we fill this gaping hole in
0:25:16 > 0:25:18the economy that would be left?
0:25:18 > 0:25:22- Patrick O'Flynn? - That issue doesn't arise.
0:25:22 > 0:25:27We can carry on trading with the EU or with EU countries
0:25:27 > 0:25:31whether we belong to a political union or not.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34One of the fundamental premises of the EU is the free movement
0:25:34 > 0:25:36of goods, services and people.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38Our exit could potentially put all of that at risk.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42Many of the biggest exporters to the EU are not in the EU.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46China, America, they do perfectly well selling to the EU.
0:25:46 > 0:25:51I think it was Digby Jones, the former boss of the CBI,
0:25:51 > 0:25:54who said if we left the EU, Angela Merkel would make sure
0:25:54 > 0:25:57there was a trade deal in place in very short order.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00We are the Eurozone's biggest export market in the world,
0:26:00 > 0:26:03we have a massive trade deficit with the EU.
0:26:03 > 0:26:07We buy £70 billion worth more of their goods
0:26:07 > 0:26:10and services than they buy of ours.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13We have protection under World Trade Organisation rules.
0:26:13 > 0:26:17The average tariff barrier around the single market now
0:26:17 > 0:26:20is down to between 1-2% of purchase price of goods,
0:26:20 > 0:26:23so even countries without trade deals with the single market
0:26:23 > 0:26:28and the EU manage to sell goods and services perfectly properly.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31What do you say to the gentleman up there?
0:26:31 > 0:26:34He said he is waiting to see what Cameron comes back with.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37He says he doesn't know what the deal is, I think we do.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40We know what David Cameron is asking for, don't we?
0:26:40 > 0:26:43And I assume David Cameron will get what he's asking for.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45And there'll be a spin operation around that.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48He's not asking for British Parliamentary sovereignty
0:26:48 > 0:26:51and I don't know about all of you, I want to live in a democracy
0:26:51 > 0:26:53and I believe in Britain
0:26:53 > 0:26:56and I believe that Britain is good enough and strong enough
0:26:56 > 0:26:59to run its own affairs, and that's my fundamental point.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01On the economy, we have nothing to fear,
0:27:01 > 0:27:04we need to get back control of our borders and to have an
0:27:04 > 0:27:09immigration policy in the national interest based on points, aptitudes
0:27:09 > 0:27:12and attitudes of people who come here.
0:27:12 > 0:27:17- Fundamentally, we need to be a democracy.- This is a democracy.
0:27:17 > 0:27:24A very quick point. One very quick point on democracy.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27On the flooding, it turns out there are regulations from the EU
0:27:27 > 0:27:29that stop us dredging the rivers
0:27:29 > 0:27:31that have arguably made the flooding worse.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33We can't do anything about that.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35I want the people who've been flooded to say,
0:27:35 > 0:27:38"Well, sack the politician who did that and choose another lot,"
0:27:38 > 0:27:39or the politicians who did it
0:27:39 > 0:27:41to debate why they did it and win the debate.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44You can't sack the European Commission, it's unelected,
0:27:44 > 0:27:48- we are not a democracy. - Fine, you've made the point.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51Nick Boles, you were in charge of planning.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53Is it true what he says?
0:27:53 > 0:27:55No. It's interesting.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58I have no love for the EU at all
0:27:58 > 0:28:00and much of what it does drives me round the bend.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03When you say you have no love for it,
0:28:03 > 0:28:07you want it abandoned like a lover that you no longer love?
0:28:07 > 0:28:10I envy people on both sides, their certainty.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12Those who are passionate about the EU,
0:28:12 > 0:28:15like the lady at the back who thinks our destiny is there.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17The Prime Minister is passionate about it too.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19No, the Prime Minister isn't passionate about it.
0:28:19 > 0:28:24- He says he's going to say we should stay, whatever happens.- He absolutely does not say that.
0:28:24 > 0:28:29He told Rupert Murdoch at a party I was at just before Christmas,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32I just thought I'd tell you. A bit of a gossip.
0:28:32 > 0:28:36- Engagement party?- He said that... Engagement party!
0:28:38 > 0:28:41He's polished his game up, hasn't he? Amazing, really!
0:28:41 > 0:28:46He described himself to Rupert as a Eurosceptic. So there we are.
0:28:46 > 0:28:48- Exactly.- Which is an amazing thing.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52Everybody in the Conservative Party is Eurosceptic.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55It's simply a question of whether we think that, on balance,
0:28:55 > 0:29:00it's safer and better for Britain's security to be in or out.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04I find it difficult, but my view is, if the Prime Minister,
0:29:04 > 0:29:06who is not in any way starry-eyed about the EU,
0:29:06 > 0:29:10if he comes back after months and months of discussion
0:29:10 > 0:29:13and says that he's secured enough to recommend that we stay,
0:29:13 > 0:29:16then I'll back him because I think he's much closer to it
0:29:16 > 0:29:19than most of us, he's trying to get the best deal for Britain.
0:29:19 > 0:29:23This is the guy who vetoed a treaty, reduced our budget contributions.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26He stood up against the EU meddling,
0:29:26 > 0:29:28more than most Prime Ministers have done.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30If he stands in front of the British people and says,
0:29:30 > 0:29:35"I think we are better off in," then I'm going to support him.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38He agrees with Chris Grayling, then, cos Grayling says,
0:29:38 > 0:29:42"Simply staying with our current terms of membership unchanged
0:29:42 > 0:29:45"would be disastrous," and you are saying the Prime Minister agrees,
0:29:45 > 0:29:47so Grayling and he are on the same side, far from being a division?
0:29:47 > 0:29:51You are very cleverly putting words in my mouth.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54I don't agree with any of the words that you have just said.
0:29:54 > 0:29:58What I am saying is that the Prime Minister's hard-headed about this.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00He has no romantic attachment to the EU
0:30:00 > 0:30:04but he's also very clear about Britain's national interests
0:30:04 > 0:30:07and let's face it, in the '70s when we joined,
0:30:07 > 0:30:08this was a bit of a basket case.
0:30:08 > 0:30:09Now, honestly,
0:30:09 > 0:30:14can we really not admit that we are actually a better off country now?
0:30:14 > 0:30:17We're more prosperous, we're creating millions of jobs,
0:30:17 > 0:30:20our unemployment rates are as low as it's ever been,
0:30:20 > 0:30:23so clearly being part of the EU, for all of its irritations,
0:30:23 > 0:30:26it hasn't stopped us prospering as a country...
0:30:26 > 0:30:30There isn't a QED between our wealth creation and the EU,
0:30:30 > 0:30:32you're not suggesting that, are you?
0:30:32 > 0:30:33I'm not suggesting a QED, but I'm suggesting
0:30:33 > 0:30:36that for those of you who are certain about leaving,
0:30:36 > 0:30:40you have to persuade us that the world outside is going
0:30:40 > 0:30:43to be as benign as the world inside.
0:30:43 > 0:30:46The onus is on you, you're the ones asking for a change.
0:30:46 > 0:30:47And we're just saying,
0:30:47 > 0:30:50if the Prime Minister can secure protection for those of us who are
0:30:50 > 0:30:53not in the Eurozone, which is one of his key aims,
0:30:53 > 0:30:56control over the access to in-work benefits for recent migrants,
0:30:56 > 0:30:59if he can secure those changes and he comes back and he says,
0:30:59 > 0:31:01"Do you know what? It's not everything we want
0:31:01 > 0:31:03"but this is a good deal, we should stay in,"
0:31:03 > 0:31:05then I think a lot of the British people
0:31:05 > 0:31:08- will want to back him and certainly I would.- OK.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10APPLAUSE
0:31:10 > 0:31:12Man up there on the right. You, sir.
0:31:12 > 0:31:14The man behind you, actually.
0:31:14 > 0:31:16There, yes. Go on.
0:31:16 > 0:31:21A lot of professionals of British institutions are saying that
0:31:21 > 0:31:24a Brexit would actually be quite dangerous for the economy,
0:31:24 > 0:31:25such as the chairman of BT.
0:31:25 > 0:31:29Bloomberg is already reporting that there may be a decrease
0:31:29 > 0:31:33in investment coming into the UK as a result of fears of a Brexit.
0:31:33 > 0:31:34What's your view?
0:31:34 > 0:31:39My view... I work in this field and I have to say, I agree.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42The pound is already losing its value against the dollar
0:31:42 > 0:31:45and a lot of people are scared, they don't know what's going to happen
0:31:45 > 0:31:46and it causes a lot of uncertainty.
0:31:46 > 0:31:50What do you think of the renegotiation, or the discussions?
0:31:50 > 0:31:52I think it's certainly a good start
0:31:52 > 0:31:56and I hope that it achieves enough to convince British people
0:31:56 > 0:31:58that a Brexit would be dangerous for our economy
0:31:58 > 0:32:00- and dangerous for this country.- OK.
0:32:00 > 0:32:02This is just the same scares we had over the euro, isn't it,
0:32:02 > 0:32:0515 years ago? If we didn't join we'd be in trouble.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07You talk about a currency losing its value, look at what's
0:32:07 > 0:32:11happened to the European single currency over the last few years.
0:32:11 > 0:32:13APPLAUSE
0:32:13 > 0:32:17For anybody to say that coming out of Europe would be completely
0:32:17 > 0:32:20painless is probably a little bit over-optimistic,
0:32:20 > 0:32:23but despite that we are a strong country,
0:32:23 > 0:32:27we can move forwards by ourselves and when we do well,
0:32:27 > 0:32:29when we are prosperous, as Nick said,
0:32:29 > 0:32:31we were hit with another massive bill for three billion.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34There you are, you've done very well, now pay us even more money.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37Do you think it will be a close-run thing, the referendum?
0:32:37 > 0:32:39I think it will be very close.
0:32:39 > 0:32:42I am actually with Kelvin - I think on the balance of things,
0:32:42 > 0:32:45unless immigration or another large issue,
0:32:45 > 0:32:49perhaps something on the scale of what happened in Cologne recently,
0:32:49 > 0:32:53happens closer to us, then I think it will be close-run but remain in.
0:32:53 > 0:32:55Person at the very back on the left there.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58Yes. There's nobody behind you so it's you.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00LAUGHTER
0:33:00 > 0:33:03So, there are two really important reasons for me why we need to stay.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06First of all, the European Union is the longest,
0:33:06 > 0:33:09most successful peace process that there's been.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11This was a continent that was
0:33:11 > 0:33:13ripping itself to pieces 70 years ago.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16Also, the kind of things that this generation will have to
0:33:16 > 0:33:18tackle have no respect for borders.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20So things like climate change, we are much
0:33:20 > 0:33:24better off staying in the European Union and tackling that together.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27The other thing I want to say about people that tend to want to leave,
0:33:27 > 0:33:30the European Union just tends to be used as an excuse
0:33:30 > 0:33:33for people like you to sit on your hands and not do anything -
0:33:33 > 0:33:35you just say it's the EU that mean you can't do it.
0:33:35 > 0:33:39- And actually, if we left, I don't think that would change.- OK.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42APPLAUSE
0:33:42 > 0:33:47It's great saying that cutting the borders and everything,
0:33:47 > 0:33:50if we leave the EU, will be good for the country,
0:33:50 > 0:33:53but what about loss in tourism that we have?
0:33:53 > 0:33:56I mean, there's 500 million people out there in the EU...
0:33:56 > 0:33:59We're not proposing to turn into North Korea, sir.
0:33:59 > 0:34:01People would still come on holiday.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03No, we're not going to turn into North Korea...
0:34:03 > 0:34:06- CAMILLA:- You would quite like that, though, wouldn't you?
0:34:06 > 0:34:10It's the younger generation now, and we like to travel and see the world
0:34:10 > 0:34:14and experience everything. If we leave the EU and cut off...
0:34:14 > 0:34:18Well, not fully cut off that tie, it will be more difficult for us
0:34:18 > 0:34:22to get those people in, to give more money into the economy from tourism
0:34:22 > 0:34:25and then for us to go and experience them countries as well.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27All right, Cat Smith.
0:34:27 > 0:34:29I think several members of the audience have made some very
0:34:29 > 0:34:32good points about the risks of leaving the EU,
0:34:32 > 0:34:36and we've heard from Ukip, here, a playing down of those risks.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39Labour's position on the EU referendum is absolutely
0:34:39 > 0:34:43crystal clear - we support being in the EU and before I go any
0:34:43 > 0:34:46further, I will say this is not without any criticism.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50We absolutely don't think that the EU is everything it could be -
0:34:50 > 0:34:51it could be so much better.
0:34:51 > 0:34:53There are many things I don't like about the EU,
0:34:53 > 0:34:57so I'm going to start on them first and I will say the issue
0:34:57 > 0:35:00with our public services and TTIP.
0:35:00 > 0:35:01I love the NHS,
0:35:01 > 0:35:04I'm sure that all the junior doctors in here do,
0:35:04 > 0:35:07and I want to see it be successful and I'm worried by competition laws
0:35:07 > 0:35:10which threaten our National Health Services.
0:35:10 > 0:35:15It bothers me immensely that we can't provide state aid to our steel
0:35:15 > 0:35:19industry in this country to support the jobs up in the north-east.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21We do need better transitional controls
0:35:21 > 0:35:25when more countries join the EU, but I believe that as workers
0:35:25 > 0:35:28and as consumers and for the environment,
0:35:28 > 0:35:30we should be part of an EU, a reformed EU.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33I think we can do it better, I think at the moment it operates too much
0:35:33 > 0:35:37in the favour of big business and not enough in the favour of workers
0:35:37 > 0:35:40and I'd like to see a reformed EU where the people came first
0:35:40 > 0:35:42and not the big money.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44APPLAUSE
0:35:47 > 0:35:49Do you think any of those things are possible?
0:35:49 > 0:35:51Supporting the steel industry, for instance?
0:35:51 > 0:35:54I'd be interested in that point about the steel industry.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56What would you do? You'd rather check out for...
0:35:56 > 0:35:59To try and what? To keep people in work?
0:35:59 > 0:36:02Most countries actually support the manufacturing industries
0:36:02 > 0:36:04- across the world. - I'm asking you, Cat.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07You're the Shadow Minister, how would you do this?
0:36:07 > 0:36:10Where would that money come from and why would
0:36:10 > 0:36:14we make steel that nobody wants to buy at any price?
0:36:14 > 0:36:15That is the problem.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18- I mean, we're always, always... - APPLAUSE
0:36:18 > 0:36:20From the left, we always get the same thing -
0:36:20 > 0:36:24turn on the printing machine. But today, that's not going to work.
0:36:24 > 0:36:29Explain to this audience how their money is going to keep
0:36:29 > 0:36:32people in work, which is what you're arguing.
0:36:32 > 0:36:34I think it's always funny how you manage to find money for war
0:36:34 > 0:36:38but you don't find enough money to support the people whose country...
0:36:38 > 0:36:40- Right, is that what you're saying? - APPLAUSE
0:36:40 > 0:36:46That you would rather create steel in one part of the country...?
0:36:46 > 0:36:49It's about priorities and I want to be on the side of the working
0:36:49 > 0:36:52people in this country who quite frankly are struggling right now.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54- They are not struggling right now. - BOOING
0:36:54 > 0:36:56There's a reason we see an increase in food banks.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58They are better off now than they've ever been.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01Come with me to my local food bank and I'd be more than happy to
0:37:01 > 0:37:04show you the families that they are feeding.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07You are in London, the global capital of the world.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10Don't talk over each other cos nobody will hear the points
0:37:10 > 0:37:13you're making, which you both think are important.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16Cat, how can you say that you're on the side of working people
0:37:16 > 0:37:21when even now, the governor of the Bank of England is admitting
0:37:21 > 0:37:24that untrammelled freedom of movement for working-class jobs
0:37:24 > 0:37:27has caused massive wage compression over 10 and 15 years
0:37:27 > 0:37:30for working people in this country?
0:37:30 > 0:37:32I don't think Labour stands for working people whatsoever -
0:37:32 > 0:37:35you're just part of a great metropolitan clique these days.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38We're absolutely not.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41I never said that I like absolutely everything about the EU,
0:37:41 > 0:37:42I said I wanted a reformed EU,
0:37:42 > 0:37:44which worked better for the people of this country.
0:37:44 > 0:37:45All right, you, sir, there.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48Is the best situation not to try and get a deal
0:37:48 > 0:37:52and if we are unable to get a deal then we leave?
0:37:52 > 0:37:55But with the picture that has been painted at the moment with
0:37:55 > 0:37:58the possible downturn that's coming in the next few months and with the
0:37:58 > 0:38:00migrant crisis, are we not safer to remain in at the moment,
0:38:00 > 0:38:03and then if we can get a better deal for ourselves we stay,
0:38:03 > 0:38:08- if we can't then the inevitable answer is that we leave?- OK.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10It's the first Question Time of the year
0:38:10 > 0:38:13and I'm sure we'll be having this every week, so I'm going to move on.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16Thank you all very much. Let's go on to a different question.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Alex Bisby has it, please. Alex Bisby.
0:38:18 > 0:38:20Given London's housing crisis,
0:38:20 > 0:38:23when will we start introducing a rent cap?
0:38:23 > 0:38:25London's housing crisis,
0:38:25 > 0:38:27and I suppose other parts of the country as well.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29When will we start introducing a rent cap?
0:38:29 > 0:38:32Cat Smith, are you in favour of capping rents?
0:38:32 > 0:38:35I think that when people talk about rent caps it's seen as being
0:38:35 > 0:38:37something quite radical, but actually,
0:38:37 > 0:38:41the regulation of the private rented housing sector is something
0:38:41 > 0:38:44which happens in Berlin and something that happens in New York,
0:38:44 > 0:38:46and I hardly think that those governments are necessarily
0:38:46 > 0:38:48the bastions of socialism.
0:38:48 > 0:38:52The truth is that London is in the grip of a huge housing crisis
0:38:52 > 0:38:55and we've got a Prime Minister who calls an affordable house
0:38:55 > 0:39:00in London as being valued at £450,000,
0:39:00 > 0:39:03which is absolutely staggering.
0:39:03 > 0:39:0598% of boroughs in this country...
0:39:05 > 0:39:08If you were a couple and you were earning this government's new
0:39:08 > 0:39:11living wage, if you were earning that,
0:39:11 > 0:39:13in 98% of boroughs across the country you would not be able
0:39:13 > 0:39:16to afford these so-called affordable houses,
0:39:16 > 0:39:19which happen to be £250,000 in the rest of the country.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22This government has no plan for housing
0:39:22 > 0:39:24and I do feel for...particularly young Londoners,
0:39:24 > 0:39:28I feel for the people that are working on average salaries -
0:39:28 > 0:39:30social workers, teachers, nurses.
0:39:30 > 0:39:33How are they going to be able to afford to live in central London?
0:39:33 > 0:39:36And all we hear from this government is talk about demolishing
0:39:36 > 0:39:38housing and not building housing.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40All right, Nick Boles.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43Well, I'm absolutely not going to deny that there is a housing crisis
0:39:43 > 0:39:46in London, it's been going on for a very long time
0:39:46 > 0:39:49and we need to do a huge amount to address it,
0:39:49 > 0:39:54but I fear that Cat is selling you an absolutely terrible remedy.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58Rent caps will have a very simple result,
0:39:58 > 0:40:00which is those people who own property
0:40:00 > 0:40:04and rent it out will no longer rent it out, they will sell it.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06And you might have noticed, there are lots of people
0:40:06 > 0:40:10all around the world who are only too happy to buy London property.
0:40:10 > 0:40:14So you would have less property available to tenants in London
0:40:14 > 0:40:17and what happens when you have less property available
0:40:17 > 0:40:18is the price goes up.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21We need people to be building more,
0:40:21 > 0:40:24we need the government to be supporting the building of more
0:40:24 > 0:40:27and we also need to be helping people not just to rent
0:40:27 > 0:40:29but helping people to buy property.
0:40:29 > 0:40:30Everybody here...
0:40:30 > 0:40:34I bet you everybody on this panel probably owns their own home.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39And why? Because most people want to own their own home.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42So why do we think that somehow renting is good
0:40:42 > 0:40:45enough for some people but not good enough for us?
0:40:45 > 0:40:48We should be helping people, yes, who rent,
0:40:48 > 0:40:51but we should also be helping people buy and that's what we're doing
0:40:51 > 0:40:54with Help to Buy, help with the mortgage,
0:40:54 > 0:40:56help with getting your deposit
0:40:56 > 0:40:59so that you can get onto the housing ladder.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02But you're not sympathetic to capping rents?
0:41:02 > 0:41:06No, not just not sympathetic, it would be a disastrous policy
0:41:06 > 0:41:10that would absolutely hit the people who most need help with housing.
0:41:10 > 0:41:12- So why is home ownership falling? - APPLAUSE
0:41:12 > 0:41:14All right, you, sir, up there.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17Two in from the... Yes, you.
0:41:17 > 0:41:18Yes, so, my partner and I
0:41:18 > 0:41:21have been renting a flat in Brixton for the last three years.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24Fortunately our landlady has not put our rent up too much, which is
0:41:24 > 0:41:27obviously fantastic, but we're in a situation now where she's due
0:41:27 > 0:41:30to sell the property, it's way beyond the price that we can afford
0:41:30 > 0:41:33to pay for it so we're looking to go a bit further outside
0:41:33 > 0:41:35the centre of London and pay slightly less rent,
0:41:35 > 0:41:39which is offset by, of course, increased transport costs.
0:41:39 > 0:41:40My question, I guess, to the panel is,
0:41:40 > 0:41:44we've both been working really very hard for the last four years
0:41:44 > 0:41:47as professionals, got two degrees each between us -
0:41:47 > 0:41:50what is being done for people who have done all that effort
0:41:50 > 0:41:52and done exactly what society have asked of them
0:41:52 > 0:41:54and yet can't get the opportunity to buy a home?
0:41:54 > 0:41:56Kelvin MacKenzie.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58APPLAUSE
0:42:01 > 0:42:05You know, I think that point you've just made could be replicated
0:42:05 > 0:42:06right across London
0:42:06 > 0:42:09and the truth about the matter is the government -
0:42:09 > 0:42:11whichever government it is,
0:42:11 > 0:42:16whether it was Blair, Brown or whether it's Cameron or even,
0:42:16 > 0:42:20in a funny way, Thatcher, nobody has dealt with the issue.
0:42:20 > 0:42:25Our country is bringing in 300,000, 400,000 people a year, right?
0:42:25 > 0:42:28And the truth about the matter is, there are too many of us
0:42:28 > 0:42:30wanting to rent and too many of us wanting to buy
0:42:30 > 0:42:33and we are going to have to deal...
0:42:33 > 0:42:35As long as we have green belt
0:42:35 > 0:42:40and we have a no high-rise outside London policy by the local councils,
0:42:40 > 0:42:45we are never going to build enough homes for our people
0:42:45 > 0:42:50and I really sympathise with your problem and it is absolutely wrong.
0:42:50 > 0:42:51And if I am a Tory minister...
0:42:51 > 0:42:54I mean, I don't know how the Corbynistas view it,
0:42:54 > 0:42:57they'd probably have us all living in bloody North Korea anyway...
0:42:57 > 0:43:00- What?- Those of us who believe...
0:43:00 > 0:43:02who like wealth creation, pushing on, getting on,
0:43:02 > 0:43:04owning your own home,
0:43:04 > 0:43:08I want to see Cameron do something which actually defeats
0:43:08 > 0:43:11the argument of rent control because rent control becomes
0:43:11 > 0:43:13quite an attractive thing to say at an election,
0:43:13 > 0:43:18and we have got to either start trimming around the green belt issue
0:43:18 > 0:43:21or we've got to start building high-rise houses.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23We have got to do something.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26Just to keep on going, "Oh, isn't it terrible?" with people...
0:43:26 > 0:43:29I suspect in Brixton you could be paying
0:43:29 > 0:43:33anything like 1,600, 1,700 a month for that.
0:43:33 > 0:43:37It is an impossible amount of money out of after-tax earnings,
0:43:37 > 0:43:41so I plead with Nick and his Cabinet
0:43:41 > 0:43:44to deal with this issue,
0:43:44 > 0:43:48otherwise I suspect in 2020,
0:43:48 > 0:43:50as unlikely as it looks now,
0:43:50 > 0:43:53a whole load of young people and not so young people
0:43:53 > 0:43:56will be voting for somebody who looks pretty unelectable
0:43:56 > 0:43:58right now, like Jeremy Corbyn.
0:43:58 > 0:44:00Camilla Long.
0:44:00 > 0:44:01I think Nick is being disingenuous
0:44:01 > 0:44:04when he says that the government is really trying very,
0:44:04 > 0:44:07very hard to solve the housing crisis.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10APPLAUSE
0:44:10 > 0:44:13I don't see any evidence that David Cameron has a single
0:44:13 > 0:44:18idea of how deep this goes because it's not only 300,000,
0:44:18 > 0:44:21400,000 migrants coming in wanting houses,
0:44:21 > 0:44:24it's houses at the top of the scale that are being sold to
0:44:24 > 0:44:28people from overseas and being left empty in Chelsea.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30So what you've got is both ends of the scale,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33you've got people who are competing with the entire world
0:44:33 > 0:44:35to try and get their property.
0:44:35 > 0:44:39So no wonder here in Limehouse an ordinary worker,
0:44:39 > 0:44:41a social worker, a plumber, whoever,
0:44:41 > 0:44:46cannot buy a small flat for £500,000.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50It's a huge amount of money and completely ridiculous
0:44:50 > 0:44:54and I think what they're doing is they're tearing up people's
0:44:54 > 0:44:57hopes and aspirations by not controlling it, by not even
0:44:57 > 0:45:00seeing that the top of the market is just as bad as the bottom of it.
0:45:00 > 0:45:02You, sir.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05SCATTERED APPLAUSE
0:45:05 > 0:45:07In the late 1960s,
0:45:07 > 0:45:11Britain built private housing and council housing,
0:45:11 > 0:45:13around 400,000 homes a year.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17Nowadays, all combined, we build less than 150,000 a year.
0:45:17 > 0:45:20That is where the issue is. We need to be building more houses,
0:45:20 > 0:45:22we need to be getting more people having apprenticeships
0:45:22 > 0:45:26in plastering and electrics and that sort of thing,
0:45:26 > 0:45:30and getting up to that 400,000 level again,
0:45:30 > 0:45:33and do this by building lots more council housing.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36The gentleman is right... The gentleman is right
0:45:36 > 0:45:40that there is a supply side issue in Britain
0:45:40 > 0:45:43but Kelvin MacKenzie is right, there is a demand side.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46About 60% of what is known as new net household formation
0:45:46 > 0:45:49is related directly or indirectly to immigration.
0:45:49 > 0:45:52Incidentally, the last Labour government failed
0:45:52 > 0:45:55both on the demand side and the supply side.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57There was no immigration control
0:45:57 > 0:45:59and no substantial home-building.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02I agree with Camilla, this buy-to-leave, as it's called,
0:46:02 > 0:46:05of rich foreign nationals in cities, particularly in London,
0:46:05 > 0:46:07is an obscenity. My personal view is,
0:46:07 > 0:46:09something drastic needs to be done about that.
0:46:09 > 0:46:11One final point.
0:46:11 > 0:46:15David Cameron made a speech this week about abolishing sink estates.
0:46:15 > 0:46:19Now, to me, this government's got one terrible housing policy,
0:46:19 > 0:46:24which it's proposing for council tenancies to be limited in time
0:46:24 > 0:46:28and means tested, so the message to aspirational working people is,
0:46:28 > 0:46:31if you get a job and get a higher wage and get on,
0:46:31 > 0:46:34you are going to get kicked out of your house
0:46:34 > 0:46:36or, at the very least, have your rent pushed up.
0:46:36 > 0:46:38To me, that guarantees, before long,
0:46:38 > 0:46:42every council estate will be turned into a sink estate.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45The aspiration will be abolished, removed.
0:46:45 > 0:46:47I remember when Bob Crow used to be criticised
0:46:47 > 0:46:50for living in a council house when he was doing well.
0:46:50 > 0:46:54To my mind, fair play to him, he was a positive role model,
0:46:54 > 0:46:56and don't our council estates need that?
0:46:56 > 0:46:59I think I remember Caroline Flint coming out with some statistics
0:46:59 > 0:47:02that the number of working households on council estates
0:47:02 > 0:47:03had gone down.
0:47:03 > 0:47:08Now, means testing tenancies, it's a way to make that problem worse
0:47:08 > 0:47:11and not better, and I think it's a terrible policy.
0:47:11 > 0:47:15Hang on a sec. The man... Yes, you in the third row.
0:47:15 > 0:47:19I think the issue isn't necessarily on the supply side.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22In London, prices are high, places are being built.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24I think the issue is, partly,
0:47:24 > 0:47:26most of these flats are marketed abroad first.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29They're being sold to wealthy foreign investors.
0:47:29 > 0:47:32Shouldn't we keep a section, a chunk, of this housing for Londoners
0:47:32 > 0:47:35and people in the UK? I'm not against foreign investment,
0:47:35 > 0:47:37but I just think it should be an option.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39- It's not even that. - Nick Boles, is that an option?
0:47:39 > 0:47:42- Sorry, what did you say? - It's not even that.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45I work for a social housing association. Listen, the government,
0:47:45 > 0:47:47your Tory government doesn't like social housing.
0:47:47 > 0:47:49They are getting rid of them.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51First of all, they introduced Right to Buy
0:47:51 > 0:47:53so that they can get rid of our stock,
0:47:53 > 0:47:56and then the second thing they did,
0:47:56 > 0:47:59they told us to cut our rent by 1% and maintain it for four years.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02My employer is going to lose more than £20 million.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04It's a very small housing association
0:48:04 > 0:48:06and they are going to lose more than £20 million.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08What does that mean?
0:48:08 > 0:48:11Your government, what else did they do?
0:48:11 > 0:48:13They said, "We are not going to give you any more grants,"
0:48:13 > 0:48:18so there is no more council housing or social housing to be built,
0:48:18 > 0:48:20and they are supporting private landlords,
0:48:20 > 0:48:24who are the rich people who donate to your party,
0:48:24 > 0:48:28some rich people or working-class people who are your supporters.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30OK. Nick Boles?
0:48:34 > 0:48:37Firstly, nothing I'm going to say is in any way
0:48:37 > 0:48:39to suggest that there isn't a terrible crisis
0:48:39 > 0:48:42and we haven't yet all got the answers
0:48:42 > 0:48:45and we absolutely need to build far more properties,
0:48:45 > 0:48:48not just in London, but around the country, than is currently going on.
0:48:48 > 0:48:52Firstly, sir, I'm afraid it's just not true what you are saying.
0:48:52 > 0:48:54Firstly, on the Right to Buy. Who are the houses being sold to?
0:48:54 > 0:48:57They're not being sold to foreign buyers,
0:48:57 > 0:48:59they are being sold to the tenants who live in them.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01Let me finish, sir.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04Secondly, who is benefitting from the cut in rents
0:49:04 > 0:49:05from housing associations?
0:49:05 > 0:49:08Well, sorry, the tenants who live in the houses are the ones
0:49:08 > 0:49:11who're paying lower rents, which is something that I thought
0:49:11 > 0:49:14the rest of the panel thought was a good idea.
0:49:14 > 0:49:17Secondly, we have announced the biggest house-building programme,
0:49:17 > 0:49:20affordable house-building programme, of any government,
0:49:20 > 0:49:22and in the last five years, can I just say,
0:49:22 > 0:49:25we have built more council houses
0:49:25 > 0:49:28than in 13 years of a Labour government.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31In the last five years, a Conservative government
0:49:31 > 0:49:35has built more council houses than in 13 years of a Labour government
0:49:35 > 0:49:38so, please, sir, we are trying our best to deal with this problem.
0:49:38 > 0:49:41Also, Camilla, on foreign buyers, you are absolutely right,
0:49:41 > 0:49:44but we have changed the rules so that now
0:49:44 > 0:49:48you have to pay capital gains tax on the sale of a property
0:49:48 > 0:49:51if you leave it empty for a very short period of time.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54So, suddenly, all of those foreign buyers in the old system,
0:49:54 > 0:49:57who were benefitting from the fact you didn't pay capital gains tax,
0:49:57 > 0:49:59they now have to pay capital gains tax.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02We are trying to stop it being quite such an attractive deal.
0:50:02 > 0:50:06I'm so pleased you're cracking down on the rich people so hard, Nick.
0:50:06 > 0:50:09I'm sure it will continue.
0:50:09 > 0:50:10I want to move on.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13We've got time for one more question which I want to take.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15It's from Kevin Takooree, please?
0:50:15 > 0:50:19Shouldn't all the police officers be allowed to carry guns
0:50:19 > 0:50:21to better protect the UK
0:50:21 > 0:50:24and help manage the ever-increasing terrorist threat?
0:50:24 > 0:50:28Shouldn't all police officers carry guns to better protect the UK?
0:50:28 > 0:50:32I think the Metropolitan Police have increased the number by 600 or so.
0:50:32 > 0:50:33What's your view?
0:50:33 > 0:50:35I think they should.
0:50:35 > 0:50:39It will help better manage situations,
0:50:39 > 0:50:41especially critical incidents.
0:50:41 > 0:50:46It takes time, obviously, to make the call to armed police officers
0:50:46 > 0:50:49to attend incidents, and times can mean
0:50:49 > 0:50:52a matter between life and death.
0:50:52 > 0:50:54Have you got a vested interest in this?
0:50:54 > 0:50:56Are you in the police yourself?
0:50:56 > 0:50:59I'm part of the Met. A special constable.
0:50:59 > 0:51:03So you'd like all police officers to be armed?
0:51:03 > 0:51:04Yeah. Yeah.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07Patrick, what do you think?
0:51:07 > 0:51:08I'd be very, very sorry
0:51:08 > 0:51:12if we've reached that position in our society.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22I actually think that the senior officers in each force
0:51:22 > 0:51:24round the country are probably best placed
0:51:24 > 0:51:27to make a judgment on the number of officers
0:51:27 > 0:51:29that need to be trained and armed.
0:51:29 > 0:51:30That number has gone up a lot,
0:51:30 > 0:51:33particularly in the Met, over the years.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36But there are some places where gun crime is still very rare.
0:51:36 > 0:51:40I think, also, many police officers would not agree with you,
0:51:40 > 0:51:43that all police officers should be armed routinely.
0:51:43 > 0:51:48So, yes, we probably need more to be armed more of the time,
0:51:48 > 0:51:51but the proposal that you're putting, I think,
0:51:51 > 0:51:53at the moment is too drastic.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56But your point was that you have to wait for armed...
0:51:56 > 0:51:59when there's an incident that demands armed officers,
0:51:59 > 0:52:03- you have to wait for them to come. Is that your point?- Yeah, yeah.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06I think in the high-risk areas in central London,
0:52:06 > 0:52:10we all see there are a lot of armed police around a lot of the time.
0:52:10 > 0:52:15- That is a response, isn't it, to the terrorist threat?- Kelvin MacKenzie?
0:52:15 > 0:52:17I come to Waterloo Station every day
0:52:17 > 0:52:21and I would say, literally once a week anyway,
0:52:21 > 0:52:23there will be people carrying...
0:52:23 > 0:52:27There will be armed officers carrying very, very large guns.
0:52:27 > 0:52:31It does actually reassure me, to be honest.
0:52:31 > 0:52:35However, our country has had a massive history,
0:52:35 > 0:52:39and we kind of get laughed at, I think, by the world
0:52:39 > 0:52:41because we don't have armed police,
0:52:41 > 0:52:44but I don't see any example of those places in the world
0:52:44 > 0:52:50that do have armed police having anything but higher rates of murder.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57The woman there. You, yes.
0:52:57 > 0:52:59I think that one of the founding principles
0:52:59 > 0:53:02behind the British police force is that they police by consent.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04If you put armed officers on our streets,
0:53:04 > 0:53:06surely we are moving away from that,
0:53:06 > 0:53:08and I don't think that can ever be a good thing.
0:53:08 > 0:53:13OK. And the woman there, on the left-hand side.
0:53:13 > 0:53:17I've just come back from working in the States for 18 months
0:53:17 > 0:53:19and I would say absolutely don't do it.
0:53:19 > 0:53:23It's, culturally, in this country inappropriate,
0:53:23 > 0:53:25and I'm pleased that it is.
0:53:25 > 0:53:27Why do you think it's culturally inappropriate?
0:53:27 > 0:53:32We just don't have a history of having lots of guns in the country,
0:53:32 > 0:53:34and I think that's a really good thing.
0:53:34 > 0:53:36Camilla Long?
0:53:36 > 0:53:39I would absolutely agree. We are not America.
0:53:39 > 0:53:43I think our policemen do an absolutely brilliant job
0:53:43 > 0:53:46without having to resort to everybody having a gun.
0:53:46 > 0:53:49I think it's important, psychologically,
0:53:49 > 0:53:53for people who we see and respect in the community.
0:53:53 > 0:53:56If we see all policemen with guns,
0:53:56 > 0:53:58people will think it's part of our culture now,
0:53:58 > 0:54:01part of being acceptable in our culture,
0:54:01 > 0:54:03and I would definitely not...
0:54:03 > 0:54:05Kevin, I must come back to you,
0:54:05 > 0:54:06because we've had a lot of people
0:54:06 > 0:54:08speaking against your idea.
0:54:08 > 0:54:11Have you changed your view
0:54:11 > 0:54:12from what you've heard
0:54:12 > 0:54:14or do you still stick with it?
0:54:14 > 0:54:16I will stick to my views,
0:54:16 > 0:54:18that is my personal views.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21I personally think that carrying guns,
0:54:21 > 0:54:24especially in these, as I mentioned...
0:54:24 > 0:54:26increasing terrorist threat,
0:54:26 > 0:54:28might help deter the... For example,
0:54:28 > 0:54:33a suicide bomber, that might help a lot.
0:54:33 > 0:54:34Cat Smith?
0:54:34 > 0:54:38To respond very directly, I don't think having armed police
0:54:38 > 0:54:39would deter someone
0:54:39 > 0:54:41who was determined to commit an act of terrorism.
0:54:41 > 0:54:43It may help resolve the situation quicker.
0:54:43 > 0:54:47However, I think this audience member here made a very good point -
0:54:47 > 0:54:51that we have a system of policing by consent in this country.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54Good policing, to me, is my PCSOs
0:54:54 > 0:54:56and local community police officers
0:54:56 > 0:54:58who know the community that I live in
0:54:58 > 0:55:02and have a good relationship with those of us who live there.
0:55:02 > 0:55:06They're the eyes and the ears for all our security.
0:55:06 > 0:55:07OK. Nick Boles?
0:55:07 > 0:55:12Kevin, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid we are all in boring consensus on this,
0:55:12 > 0:55:15but I just want to say, I do disagree with you,
0:55:15 > 0:55:19but you are doing an amazing thing being a special constable,
0:55:19 > 0:55:22and, frankly, I don't have the guts to do it
0:55:22 > 0:55:24and so even though I disagree with that idea,
0:55:24 > 0:55:27- I salute you for doing it.- OK.
0:55:27 > 0:55:32Just before we go, does anybody agree with what Kevin was saying
0:55:32 > 0:55:35who'd like to speak before we end?
0:55:35 > 0:55:37Nobody?
0:55:37 > 0:55:38You do, sir? Yes.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41- I'm originally...- No, the man up there at the back.
0:55:41 > 0:55:46I think to comprehensively arm the British police would be a mistake.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49The Commissioner's increased the numbers in London.
0:55:49 > 0:55:53Now, as far as I'm concerned, it's just a token gesture.
0:55:53 > 0:55:56If you consider what happened in France,
0:55:56 > 0:55:59all the police in France are armed, the Gendarmerie,
0:55:59 > 0:56:01the Police Nationale.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04It didn't prevent the deaths of 130 people.
0:56:04 > 0:56:06Mumbai was the same.
0:56:06 > 0:56:09And Lee Rigby in south London...
0:56:09 > 0:56:13The police stood by until armed officers actually arrived on scene.
0:56:13 > 0:56:18Members of the public approached the knifeman at the time,
0:56:18 > 0:56:22so what I'm trying to say is that the only way that we can combat
0:56:22 > 0:56:26a Mumbai or a Paris is good intelligence,
0:56:26 > 0:56:28precise intelligence,
0:56:28 > 0:56:32and then we can take them out before they actually attack us.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35OK. We've got time for a last question,
0:56:35 > 0:56:38the yes and no answer, from Bob Drury.
0:56:38 > 0:56:41It's something that came up in the House of Commons this week.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43Yes. Just put the question.
0:56:43 > 0:56:45Do we need an English national anthem?
0:56:45 > 0:56:47Do we need an English national anthem?
0:56:47 > 0:56:50- I'll go around from the right to the left.- No.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53- No.- Hesitation.
0:56:53 > 0:56:55Jerusalem is a very good song!
0:56:55 > 0:56:58- Cat?- Yes, in addition to a British national anthem.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02- You do want...- I like Jerusalem. I would like to hear it sung more.
0:57:02 > 0:57:04No, but I would love to see an English crowd
0:57:04 > 0:57:08trying to sing Bohemian Rhapsody at the start of every match.
0:57:08 > 0:57:09Kelvin?
0:57:09 > 0:57:11Yes, I would like to see it.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15I like the way that the Scots respond to their anthem
0:57:15 > 0:57:18and I would like us to have the same feeling.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20Jerusalem would do it for me.
0:57:20 > 0:57:22On which point, our time is up.
0:57:22 > 0:57:23So, we are in Northern Ireland
0:57:23 > 0:57:25next week, in Belfast,
0:57:25 > 0:57:26with Labour's Peter Hain,
0:57:26 > 0:57:28we've got Theresa Villiers with us
0:57:28 > 0:57:30and the comedian Grainne Maguire,
0:57:30 > 0:57:32and the week after, we're going to
0:57:32 > 0:57:33be in Stamford, in Lincolnshire.
0:57:33 > 0:57:35So, as ever, if you would like to
0:57:35 > 0:57:37take part in Question Time,
0:57:37 > 0:57:38that is the way to do it. Just apply.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40There it is on the screen,
0:57:40 > 0:57:42the website
0:57:42 > 0:57:44and the telephone number...
0:57:45 > 0:57:47If you have been listening to this,
0:57:47 > 0:57:50it may have been on BBC Radio 5 Live,
0:57:50 > 0:57:52the debate carries on, as you know,
0:57:52 > 0:57:54with Question Time Extra Time
0:57:54 > 0:57:55with Stephen Nolan
0:57:55 > 0:57:58and John Pienaar handling that.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01We've finished here, though.
0:58:01 > 0:58:02My thanks to our panel,
0:58:02 > 0:58:06to all of you who came to take part in the programme,
0:58:06 > 0:58:08from Limehouse, here in east London,
0:58:08 > 0:58:10until next week, goodnight.