0:00:02 > 0:00:05Tonight we're at Titanic, Belfast, and this is Question Time.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14And a big welcome to you at home,
0:00:14 > 0:00:18whether you're watching on television or listening to BBC Radio 5 Live,
0:00:18 > 0:00:20to our audience here, of course, and to our panel.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23Tonight, the Conservative Secretary of State
0:00:23 > 0:00:25for Northern Ireland, Theresa Villiers,
0:00:25 > 0:00:26the former Cabinet minister,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29now Labour peer in the House of Lords, Peter Hain,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32the deputy leader of the Democratic Unionist Party
0:00:32 > 0:00:35and its leader at Westminster, Nigel Dodds,
0:00:35 > 0:00:38Sinn Fein's National Chairman Declan Kearney
0:00:38 > 0:00:42and the comedian and writer Grainne Maguire.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44APPLAUSE
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Thanks very much.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Now, just as always, if you want to join the debate,
0:00:56 > 0:00:57which I'm sure you do from home
0:00:57 > 0:00:59because we're bound to irritate you one way or another,
0:00:59 > 0:01:01you can join the debate on Facebook -
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0:01:10 > 0:01:13Text comments to 83981 and press the red button to see
0:01:13 > 0:01:14what others are saying.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16I don't know what that first bit means, but there we are.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20Let's have our first question from Daniel Newton, please. Daniel Newton.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22What action should be taken against Russia,
0:01:22 > 0:01:25following the conclusion of the Litvinenko Inquiry?
0:01:25 > 0:01:29Yes, sir Robert Owen on the Inquiry in the Litvinenko death
0:01:29 > 0:01:32said it was probably approved by President Putin.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34What action should be taken? Theresa Villiers.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Well, the ambassador from Russia is being summoned into
0:01:38 > 0:01:41the Foreign Office so that the government can express
0:01:41 > 0:01:45its very grave concern about the tragedy which has occurred.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47It is completely unacceptable
0:01:47 > 0:01:52for a citizen to be murdered in our country at the behest
0:01:52 > 0:01:54of a foreign intelligence service.
0:01:54 > 0:01:58And in our Strategic Defence and Security Review
0:01:58 > 0:02:00we highlighted the increasing security threat
0:02:00 > 0:02:03posed by Russia, and this is a reminder to us all
0:02:03 > 0:02:06of the importance of maintaining our security,
0:02:06 > 0:02:10maintaining our defences, funding our police services
0:02:10 > 0:02:13and ensuring that our intelligence services have all
0:02:13 > 0:02:16the capacities that they need to combat espionage
0:02:16 > 0:02:20and security threats from places like Russia.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22What action should be taken, was the question.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24I think we need to maintain the sanctions which we've
0:02:24 > 0:02:27already applied to Russia as a result of their aggressive
0:02:27 > 0:02:30actions in Ukraine, and no doubt the government will be reflecting
0:02:30 > 0:02:32over the following days as to whether
0:02:32 > 0:02:34further action needs to be taken.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37But we are gravely concerned by what has happened.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41Labour's Shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham, Peter Hain, said,
0:02:41 > 0:02:44"There can be no sense of the government pulling their punches
0:02:44 > 0:02:46"because of wider diplomatic considerations."
0:02:46 > 0:02:49He seemed to be slightly critical of the government's response. Are you?
0:02:49 > 0:02:54He was. I mean, the point that I think is really important here
0:02:54 > 0:02:57is that the agents concerned clearly, it seems from the report,
0:02:57 > 0:03:02acting on Putin's orders, and that's really serious.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05The president of one of the most powerful nations in the world
0:03:05 > 0:03:10ordering an extra-judicial murder on our soil - that's really serious,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13and I think those agents who were clearly involved,
0:03:13 > 0:03:17according to the report, there should be sanctions on them,
0:03:17 > 0:03:20the European common arrest warrant should operate on them,
0:03:20 > 0:03:23they should not be allowed to travel within Europe without
0:03:23 > 0:03:26being arrested and brought to justice in Britain.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29So that's one thing that I think should be done right away.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32They have applied for extradition, haven't they, these two?
0:03:32 > 0:03:35They have, yes, but there should be a travel ban on them
0:03:35 > 0:03:39like has been applied to other dubious characters with
0:03:39 > 0:03:41criminal intent around the world.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44But what about "probably approved by President Putin"?
0:03:44 > 0:03:45Is there anything that can be done about that?
0:03:45 > 0:03:49Should there be any sanctions taken against Russia on a bigger scale?
0:03:49 > 0:03:51This is a man elected president of his country.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54There are, as Theresa said, already sanctions.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56The difficulty, frankly, is this -
0:03:56 > 0:04:00Russia at the moment is really important if we're going to get
0:04:00 > 0:04:02a solution to the Syrian crisis.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06So you need to engage with the Russians.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08There's no point in playing games over this,
0:04:08 > 0:04:12they're important around other crises,
0:04:12 > 0:04:16including the whole problem of Isil and Daesh international terrorism.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19So I don't think, sort of, we're putting them
0:04:19 > 0:04:22into cold storage is the right answer,
0:04:22 > 0:04:25but making it absolutely clear, as the government has done
0:04:25 > 0:04:28and as Parliament has done, it's not acceptable
0:04:28 > 0:04:31and applying those particular punitive sanctions
0:04:31 > 0:04:34against those two very dangerous men...
0:04:34 > 0:04:36This was radioactive poisoning
0:04:36 > 0:04:39- in the middle of London. - Grainne Maguire.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42APPLAUSE
0:04:44 > 0:04:46Yeah, I just think it's terrifying.
0:04:46 > 0:04:51I just think Putin is a nasty piece of work, you know,
0:04:51 > 0:04:56him propping up Assad's regime, invading Ukraine to...for a big push
0:04:56 > 0:04:59so he can be more popular at home, his human rights records,
0:04:59 > 0:05:02the way he's cutting back on free speech in Russia...
0:05:02 > 0:05:05I just think it's absolutely terrifying.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Anybody got views here? Yes, you, sir, in the front.
0:05:09 > 0:05:10And you, yes, yes, sir.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13I think it's interesting for a British government to criticise
0:05:13 > 0:05:16Litvinenko considering the amount of incidents of state-sponsored
0:05:16 > 0:05:19killing there were in Northern Ireland throughout the Troubles.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22A lot of collusion went on there through investigations.
0:05:22 > 0:05:23It seems a bit hypocritical.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25Nigel Dodds, do you agree with him?
0:05:25 > 0:05:28Well, I don't agree at all because, I mean, it's entirely...
0:05:28 > 0:05:30It's an entirely spurious argument to make
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and I think it's one that actually harks back to the past
0:05:33 > 0:05:36and doesn't deal with the issue that's actually in front of us,
0:05:36 > 0:05:38which is a serious issue and deserves to be treated seriously,
0:05:38 > 0:05:40not in the sort of way that's just been raised.
0:05:40 > 0:05:45I think that this issue is an extremely difficult one
0:05:45 > 0:05:48for the UK Government because of the importance of Russia
0:05:48 > 0:05:50in terms of Syria and all the rest of it.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55I have to say, I've been immensely impressed with Marina Litvinenko
0:05:55 > 0:05:59and her son Anatoly, who have acted with extreme dignity
0:05:59 > 0:06:02and persevered the quest for justice
0:06:02 > 0:06:04against the Russian state
0:06:04 > 0:06:07and against the agents who carried out this appalling crime.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12In my view, I think Putin is a terrible despot.
0:06:12 > 0:06:13He is someone, remember,
0:06:13 > 0:06:17who supplied the means by which the Dutch airliner was
0:06:17 > 0:06:21shot down over Ukraine, which murdered innocent men,
0:06:21 > 0:06:23women and children, babies included.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Action does need to be taken,
0:06:25 > 0:06:27visa restrictions have been applied,
0:06:27 > 0:06:30there are moves to withdraw visas.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33The Majewski case, which has been the law that has been
0:06:33 > 0:06:35applied in America, needs to be looked at.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37I know the British Government are saying
0:06:37 > 0:06:39we don't need to do that because we already have
0:06:39 > 0:06:42restrictions in terms of movement, freezing of assets,
0:06:42 > 0:06:45but again, I think more could be done as to how we punish individuals
0:06:45 > 0:06:48right at the top of the regime as well as the people who
0:06:48 > 0:06:49carried out these actions.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52I mean, Marina wants a travel ban on Putin.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Would you impose a travel ban on the president of Russia?
0:06:55 > 0:06:57I know he's a head of state and they're special and particular
0:06:57 > 0:07:00rules are applied in movement of heads of state, which is difficult,
0:07:00 > 0:07:04but I think that, just as was done in relation to Robert Mugabe,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06for instance, in terms of moving about,
0:07:06 > 0:07:10some differential needs to be applied to the Russian president
0:07:10 > 0:07:13compared to other heads of state to make it clear
0:07:13 > 0:07:16that his actions in Crimea, in the Ukraine,
0:07:16 > 0:07:19blowing up civilian aircraft,
0:07:19 > 0:07:21carrying out murders on the streets of London and everything that
0:07:21 > 0:07:24he's doing at home, that this will not be tolerated.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27Because he is a bully. You can't appease bullies, you need to
0:07:27 > 0:07:31take them on and confront them with the consequences of their actions.
0:07:31 > 0:07:32All right. You, sir.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34APPLAUSE
0:07:37 > 0:07:41To back this up, surely we need global support to show the Russians
0:07:41 > 0:07:43that they've gone too far
0:07:43 > 0:07:48and that they cannot proceed with some action like this again?
0:07:48 > 0:07:49Declan Kearney.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55I do think it's very important that we don't
0:07:55 > 0:07:58step into the territory of trading off, erm...
0:08:00 > 0:08:02..tragedies and crimes like this
0:08:02 > 0:08:04against wider geopolitical interests.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11There are fundamentally undemocratic practices
0:08:11 > 0:08:15which characterise the Russian state,
0:08:15 > 0:08:18and clearly there are rogue actions
0:08:18 > 0:08:22and rogue actors who have apparently acted at the behest
0:08:22 > 0:08:26of the political interests of the Russian state.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29And we live in a fractured world, of course,
0:08:29 > 0:08:33and we're looking at global political conflict.
0:08:33 > 0:08:38But while we should rightly object and criticise
0:08:38 > 0:08:43and condemn what appears to be evidenced in this particular case,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46neither do I think that we should lose sight
0:08:46 > 0:08:51of the equivalence of the actions of other Western
0:08:51 > 0:08:55and other Asian states in relation to
0:08:55 > 0:08:57their activities in the Middle East.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01I think we need to be very careful before we draw out some
0:09:01 > 0:09:07type of moral hierarchy in terms of stating that this action,
0:09:07 > 0:09:10this crime is bad and that the use of drone strikes
0:09:10 > 0:09:14killing and murdering men, women and children
0:09:14 > 0:09:20in Syria is in some way acceptable and beyond criticism.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22So you draw no distinction...
0:09:22 > 0:09:24APPLAUSE
0:09:25 > 0:09:28You draw no distinction between the British Government allowing
0:09:28 > 0:09:31people to be murdered on the streets of London
0:09:31 > 0:09:35and the government policy agreed by the House of Commons about Syria?
0:09:35 > 0:09:39Oh, I think that there is a requirement here
0:09:39 > 0:09:42for the strongest diplomatic action to be taken.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44There is a need for sanctions.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46By the same token,
0:09:46 > 0:09:50let's understand that the conflict in the Middle East
0:09:50 > 0:09:54is not going to be addressed unless there is demilitarisation,
0:09:54 > 0:09:57unless we move to a ceasefire and unless political
0:09:57 > 0:10:00and diplomatic solutions are introduced and applied.
0:10:00 > 0:10:05OK. I'll take one more point then we'll go onto the next question. Yes.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07When we talk about playing games,
0:10:07 > 0:10:11do we not realise that Russia is playing games with us?
0:10:11 > 0:10:14Because they are still in Ukraine, still in Crimea.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16Their economy is only hurting
0:10:16 > 0:10:19because of the oil price reductions because of Saudi Arabia,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22nothing to do with the Americans or Britain or anybody else.
0:10:22 > 0:10:26And what's your view about the murder?
0:10:26 > 0:10:29There should be... Putin should be not allowed to travel,
0:10:29 > 0:10:33there should be something directly done against him.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38- Like against Mugabe, as...? - Absolutely.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41Without excusing this at all - you heard what I said -
0:10:41 > 0:10:44if you don't allow Putin to travel,
0:10:44 > 0:10:47say it gets to the point with a summit in Vienna
0:10:47 > 0:10:49on solving the Syrian crisis,
0:10:49 > 0:10:53which has triggered this massive upflow of refugees desperate
0:10:53 > 0:10:55to get away from the war,
0:10:55 > 0:10:59if it involves Putin travelling to Vienna to help solve that problem,
0:10:59 > 0:11:01which he's key to, I think that should be allowed.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04APPLAUSE
0:11:04 > 0:11:06The thing about this kind of sanctions
0:11:06 > 0:11:08is you have to be smart about it.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11You stop him from doing the things he likes doing, you don't stop
0:11:11 > 0:11:14him from things that it's important that he does in terms of that.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18But we've also to remember in Syria that Russia is bombing mainly
0:11:18 > 0:11:21rebel forces that are trying to bring down Assad.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24I mean, we talk about Russian help in terms of Syria
0:11:24 > 0:11:26and it is important - they need to be round the table.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30But remember, they are busy attacking anti-Assad forces,
0:11:30 > 0:11:32not so much Isis and Isil,
0:11:32 > 0:11:36- which is what we want to see destroyed in Syria.- OK, let's go on.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39I'm not sure what it is that he likes doing except riding
0:11:39 > 0:11:41bare-chested on horses and...
0:11:41 > 0:11:43There's plenty of photographs of him...
0:11:43 > 0:11:45But he can do all that in Russia.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47All right, let me go on to another question.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50Just before we do, where are we going to be next week?
0:11:50 > 0:11:51Stamford, in Lincolnshire.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54And after that, Bradford in West Yorkshire.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56So come and join Question Time,
0:11:56 > 0:11:58Stamford in Lincolnshire next week,
0:11:58 > 0:11:59Bradford in Yorkshire the week after.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02There's the address to apply and I'll give it, as ever, at the end.
0:12:02 > 0:12:06Let's have a question from Pete Hodson, please. Pete Hodson.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08Isn't it about time Northern Ireland moved with the times
0:12:08 > 0:12:10and legalised gay marriage?
0:12:10 > 0:12:13Isn't it about time Northern Ireland moved with the times?
0:12:13 > 0:12:15APPLAUSE
0:12:17 > 0:12:19Well, all right.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21APPLAUSE CONTINUES
0:12:23 > 0:12:25Hang on, hang on, hang on!
0:12:25 > 0:12:27If you all applaud him, we'll have nothing to discuss,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30if you all agree with him!
0:12:30 > 0:12:32For our audiences outside Northern Ireland,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35Northern Ireland still does not legalise gay marriage,
0:12:35 > 0:12:36unlike the rest of the United Kingdom.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39And his question is, isn't it about time Northern Ireland
0:12:39 > 0:12:41moved with the times? Grainne Maguire.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Erm, I just can't believe we're still having this discussion.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47Yesterday in Westminster, Tory MPs
0:12:47 > 0:12:49were discussing their use of poppers,
0:12:49 > 0:12:55yet in Northern Ireland, we still have state-sanctioned homophobia.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58I think it's absolutely crazy.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01APPLAUSE
0:13:03 > 0:13:07Now, I am a proud Irish person but I have to think, if you're
0:13:07 > 0:13:11being out-liberalled by the Republic of Ireland on a social issue,
0:13:11 > 0:13:14you've got something to worry about.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17I mean, this is not what you want Northern Ireland to be famous for.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20You don't want to say, "Visit Northern Ireland, we've got
0:13:20 > 0:13:24"Titanic, we've got amazing, you know, art and culture and we also...
0:13:24 > 0:13:26"We're horrible to gay people."
0:13:26 > 0:13:28Like, this is ridiculous.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30APPLAUSE
0:13:30 > 0:13:31Nigel Dodds.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Cos it was your party that stopped this happening, wasn't it?
0:13:34 > 0:13:36Well, along with others,
0:13:36 > 0:13:38and not just on one side of the community either.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42But this is a very serous issue that needs to be treated with respect.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45And I would be appalled at homophobia, I think it's wrong
0:13:45 > 0:13:47that anyone should describe being against
0:13:47 > 0:13:49the redefinition of marriage,
0:13:49 > 0:13:51but being for the equal treatment of everybody
0:13:51 > 0:13:53and treating everybody with respect
0:13:53 > 0:13:56as some kind of homophobia. It isn't.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59The question is, there are many people in Northern Ireland society
0:13:59 > 0:14:00on both sides of the community -
0:14:00 > 0:14:03Roman Catholic and Protestant, Unionist and Nationalist
0:14:03 > 0:14:05and without any definition at all -
0:14:05 > 0:14:08who hold sincerely held beliefs on this issue.
0:14:08 > 0:14:13Many people believe marriage should be redefined, others do not.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16It is a devolved matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18The Assembly will make its decision according to the rules
0:14:18 > 0:14:20under which the Assembly was set up
0:14:20 > 0:14:23and supported by both the Conservative Party
0:14:23 > 0:14:26and the Labour Party and the other parties that signed up
0:14:26 > 0:14:29to the Belfast Agreement and the St Andrews Agreement,
0:14:29 > 0:14:31and they will make their choice on that matter.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35But the fundamental thing is this - that Northern Ireland is moving
0:14:35 > 0:14:38forward and it is famous for a lot of things.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42It is famous for this area in which we sit tonight, the Titanic area.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Harland & Wolff, great manufactory.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47It's famous for its tourist attractions,
0:14:47 > 0:14:49the Giant's Causeway, for its golfers...
0:14:49 > 0:14:52Sorry, what's this got to do with legalising gay marriage?
0:14:52 > 0:14:55APPLAUSE
0:14:55 > 0:14:58- BOOING - No, no, what I'm saying is...
0:14:58 > 0:14:59Stick with the question.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03Sometimes the BBC and others can get fixated on this issue.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06The last time we were here, we were having this debate.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09Most people in Northern Ireland are wanting to get on with the peace
0:15:09 > 0:15:13process, building the economy, moving Northern Ireland forward,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17it's not the day-to-day subject that people talk about.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19- What we need to do...- If you're straight! If you're gay, it is.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23What we need to do is allow the Northern Ireland Assembly under
0:15:23 > 0:15:26the rules in which it was set up, hard-fought, hard-won,
0:15:26 > 0:15:30hard-negotiated, to make the decision on behalf of the people
0:15:30 > 0:15:32of Northern Ireland in a democratic way.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36But people need to treat these arguments with respect and everybody
0:15:36 > 0:15:38needs to be treated without discrimination
0:15:38 > 0:15:41and that's the way in which we should deal with this issue.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43Let's deal with it like that then.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47The woman with the spectacles on in the third row?
0:15:47 > 0:15:50MAN SPEAKS No, the woman. ..Yeah, you.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54You talk about your deeply-seated beliefs shaping the
0:15:54 > 0:15:58policies that you make.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02There are actually courts who've told you time and time again
0:16:02 > 0:16:05that this is against human rights law what you are doing
0:16:05 > 0:16:07in this country.
0:16:07 > 0:16:08No, no, no.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10And you continually refuse to bring
0:16:10 > 0:16:13it into law to bring us into line with the rest of the UK.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Don't answer yet, I'll give you a chance to come back.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18The man in the second row from the back?
0:16:18 > 0:16:22Opinion polls in Northern Ireland consistently show that a majority
0:16:22 > 0:16:25of the public support gay marriage so why not put the issue
0:16:25 > 0:16:28to a referendum like was done in the Republic?
0:16:28 > 0:16:30Do you agree with that, the man up there?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33APPLAUSE Is that your view?
0:16:33 > 0:16:36It's the abuse of the petition of concern that the DUP
0:16:36 > 0:16:40use when it's voted on, so the last time it was voted for,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43and then they used a petition of concern
0:16:43 > 0:16:45so it wouldn't be implemented.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49I think that's an abuse of the Good Friday Agreement,
0:16:49 > 0:16:51to abuse that process.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53APPLAUSE
0:16:53 > 0:16:55Hold on.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58I'll bring you back in. Declan Kearney.
0:16:58 > 0:17:03One of the most liberating and democratic processes that has
0:17:03 > 0:17:07taken place on this island in recent years was last year
0:17:07 > 0:17:12in the 26 counties when popular opinion was engaged and mobilised
0:17:12 > 0:17:14around the issue of equal marriage and
0:17:14 > 0:17:17with a resounding majority, the law was changed
0:17:17 > 0:17:21in the south of Ireland and that was a terrific landmark
0:17:21 > 0:17:27decision for equality and indeed, as the lady in the audience
0:17:27 > 0:17:28suggested, for human rights.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32So yes, in answer to the question, it is time that the North of
0:17:32 > 0:17:34Ireland moved on.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37This is an issue of equality but it's also an issue of love.
0:17:37 > 0:17:42Because gay people are our brothers, are our sisters, they're our
0:17:42 > 0:17:45relations, members of our family and they live in our communities.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49And we owe it to them to ensure that they have the same rights
0:17:49 > 0:17:53as other citizens in our society are entitled to enjoy.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57I agree that on the last occasion... Sinn Fein's brought forward a motion
0:17:57 > 0:18:00on five different occasions to the assembly with a view
0:18:00 > 0:18:02to changing the law here in the north.
0:18:02 > 0:18:07The difference on the last occasion was that a majority did
0:18:07 > 0:18:09indeed vote in favour of change.
0:18:09 > 0:18:14Whilst the petition of concern was used by Nigel's party to...
0:18:14 > 0:18:17You mustn't lose us in the complicated
0:18:17 > 0:18:19politics of the Assembly.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21Are you saying a majority voted in favour?
0:18:21 > 0:18:25Yes, and the technical veto was used to prohibit the implementation.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29The veto which is part of the Northern Ireland agreement,
0:18:29 > 0:18:30is that correct?
0:18:30 > 0:18:32- Yes. - So it's part of the constitution.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36It's been set in place for particular purposes and not to be
0:18:36 > 0:18:40abused in order to hold backs human rights, equality and inclusion.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42OK.
0:18:42 > 0:18:43Theresa Villiers.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46- That's what... - All right, Declan, hold on.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48That is what our gay brothers and sisters deserve
0:18:48 > 0:18:49in Northern Ireland today.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Theresa Villiers, do you agree with that assessment?
0:18:52 > 0:18:55I'm a supporter of equal marriage, I voted for it.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57I fully respect Nigel's point of view.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59I know this is a sensitive issue.
0:18:59 > 0:19:04But in my view, marriage is a great institution and it would be great
0:19:04 > 0:19:08to expand access to that to the gay community in Northern Ireland.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11It's right that this is a decision made in Northern Ireland
0:19:11 > 0:19:14by the people elected in Northern Ireland, but I hope that
0:19:14 > 0:19:17- one day equal marriage will come to Northern Ireland.- OK.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20APPLAUSE
0:19:20 > 0:19:23Does anybody here agree with Nigel Dodd's point
0:19:23 > 0:19:26of view, because I would like to hear from them?
0:19:26 > 0:19:28No?
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Nobody? Yes. Thank you. Let's hear your view.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34I may be the only one here tonight that does have that opinion,
0:19:34 > 0:19:40but I'm aware that marriage was defined by God as one man
0:19:40 > 0:19:44and one woman, and we have civil partnerships,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47so love in that same-sex arrangement
0:19:47 > 0:19:48is in this country already,
0:19:48 > 0:19:51we don't need to redefine marriage, in my opinion..
0:19:51 > 0:19:55Didn't they used to have polygamy in the Bible as well?
0:19:55 > 0:19:56APPLAUSE
0:19:56 > 0:19:59What bit of the Bible are you picking?
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Somebody else had their hand up in support
0:20:02 > 0:20:04of that view.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06Somebody in a green shirt somewhere.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08Was it you?
0:20:08 > 0:20:10What is your view?
0:20:10 > 0:20:15It's very simple - the system in Northern Ireland lets
0:20:15 > 0:20:21two parties put a veto on whatever they like whenever they like.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25If they change that system and let the parties have free votes,
0:20:25 > 0:20:32then the MPs can represent the people.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36- If it was a simple majority.- Yes. Get rid of the veto.- Peter Hain?
0:20:36 > 0:20:40Well, I was proud to be leader of the Commons at the time
0:20:40 > 0:20:43when the Labour Government - and I ensured it was on our
0:20:43 > 0:20:45legislative agenda and managed it through Parliament -
0:20:45 > 0:20:48the Labour Government legislated for civil partnerships.
0:20:48 > 0:20:49That was a breakthrough.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53I was also proud that the first civil partnerships in the UK
0:20:53 > 0:20:58was two women in Belfast, I think Belfast City Hall.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02Wasn't that an amazing statement for the new Northern Ireland to make?
0:21:02 > 0:21:03APPLAUSE
0:21:03 > 0:21:08So I'm very sad that now Northern Ireland is the only part
0:21:08 > 0:21:13of the UK where equal marriage does not apply.
0:21:13 > 0:21:18I think this is a matter of equal opportunities and that everybody
0:21:18 > 0:21:22who wants to get married should be able to get married, and the partner
0:21:22 > 0:21:24of their choice should be their choice,
0:21:24 > 0:21:25not the politicians' choice.
0:21:29 > 0:21:34The woman there in black? You.
0:21:34 > 0:21:35Fire away.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37Love's love, regardless of gender.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41I'm an atheist myself and I don't believe that anybody's religious
0:21:41 > 0:21:43convictions should determine who I marry.
0:21:43 > 0:21:47I don't want to get married in a chapel or a church,
0:21:47 > 0:21:51I just want to have a ceremony with my partner that is called
0:21:51 > 0:21:55marriage so it gives me the same rights as any other married couple.
0:21:55 > 0:21:56That's all that we want.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59A civil partnership is not enough?
0:21:59 > 0:22:02It doesn't give 100% the same rights as marriage does.
0:22:02 > 0:22:07There are some slight differences in terms of pensions and things
0:22:07 > 0:22:08like that and what can be claimed
0:22:08 > 0:22:11if something happens to your partner.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13There are some slight restrictions on travel as well.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17Some companies - some countries, apologies -
0:22:17 > 0:22:19that have equal marriage,
0:22:19 > 0:22:23they don't recognise civil partnerships,
0:22:23 > 0:22:27so if we are in that country, we are not recognised as a couple.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29A point from you, sir?
0:22:30 > 0:22:32Yes.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36Eileen Foster recently said gay marriage was not at
0:22:36 > 0:22:37the top of the pile.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41Eileen Foster being the new leader of the DUP?
0:22:41 > 0:22:43- Yes.- The First Minister as well.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46Yes. Exactly. The First Minister for this country.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49Have you seen one person in this audience today in
0:22:49 > 0:22:51support of your views?
0:22:51 > 0:22:53How can you continue to
0:22:53 > 0:22:55call yourself the Democratic Unionist Party if...
0:22:55 > 0:23:00APPLAUSE AND CHEERING
0:23:01 > 0:23:04- Hold on. - I would say probably more than one
0:23:04 > 0:23:06person in the audience supports Nigel Dodds.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10The point is, we have a democracy in Northern Ireland,
0:23:10 > 0:23:12we fought hard for assembly, it's for the Assembly
0:23:12 > 0:23:13to make that decision.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15The lady made the point about the courts.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17The courts passed the buck back to the Assembly.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19Simple as that.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21The Assembly needs to debate the issue and make a decision.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24Look, in every vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly
0:23:24 > 0:23:27in the last five or four were against it by majority.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29It's very on a knife edge.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31People raise this issue of petition of concern.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34For viewers not familiar with the constitutional set-up here,
0:23:34 > 0:23:36it means a majority of unionists, as well as a majority of
0:23:36 > 0:23:39nationalists have to agree something. That's a good thing.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43Frankly, Sinn Fein have vetoed things like National Crime Agency,
0:23:43 > 0:23:48things that would help fight crime, so it's not just one way.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50But if people want to remove the petition of concern,
0:23:50 > 0:23:53the gentleman here talked about the free vote and MPs
0:23:53 > 0:23:58deciding, I'm happy for the Assembly to go to a majority vote system
0:23:58 > 0:24:01but I'm not sure everybody else around this table would be.
0:24:01 > 0:24:07Majority rule in relation to this issue, it would be a majority vote
0:24:07 > 0:24:10on all the other issues that affect Northern Ireland so people need
0:24:10 > 0:24:13to think very, very carefully on these issues before
0:24:13 > 0:24:14they go down that route.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17It's got to be a constitutional settlement which is fair
0:24:17 > 0:24:21to all of our citizens and treats everybody with respect.
0:24:21 > 0:24:26I am totally opposed and will fight tooth and nail and have all my life
0:24:26 > 0:24:28for the rights of people to be treated equally
0:24:28 > 0:24:31without discrimination and against...
0:24:31 > 0:24:36- HECKLING - ..any kind of homophobia or anything.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39The fact that some people in this audience may not agree
0:24:39 > 0:24:44with that doesn't make any difference.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46I think the point's been made.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47Another question now.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50We have got a lot of questions to get through.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54I want to go on to the next one from Duncan Putt, please?
0:24:56 > 0:25:01What consequences would the Brexit have for the UK?
0:25:01 > 0:25:05What consequences would a British exit from the EU
0:25:05 > 0:25:06have for the UK?
0:25:07 > 0:25:09Declan Kearney?
0:25:09 > 0:25:12I think it would be very negative.
0:25:12 > 0:25:18It would be a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face.
0:25:18 > 0:25:23But my particular concern would be for the implications that a decision
0:25:23 > 0:25:27to go for Brexit would have for the North of Ireland.
0:25:27 > 0:25:32It would have profound implications for economic growth,
0:25:32 > 0:25:34prosperity here in the North.
0:25:34 > 0:25:39We'd see an end to the type of European funding that's been
0:25:39 > 0:25:43so essential to community economic regeneration here in the North
0:25:43 > 0:25:46in relation to infrastructure and development.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49Our farming community's highly dependent upon CAP payments
0:25:49 > 0:25:52and the fisheries industry is increasingly dependent
0:25:52 > 0:25:54upon assistance from Europe.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57But in addition to that, I think it would represent a huge
0:25:57 > 0:26:02setback for the political process itself because the decision to see
0:26:02 > 0:26:05Brexit will inevitably harden partition, it will thwart
0:26:05 > 0:26:09cross-border cooperation and, in that sense, it's a huge negative
0:26:09 > 0:26:13for all citizens here, for the business and employers'
0:26:13 > 0:26:15constituencies within our society, for the farming community
0:26:15 > 0:26:17and for workers.
0:26:17 > 0:26:22While I view the European Union as an institution with huge
0:26:22 > 0:26:26imperfections which requires enormous democratisation
0:26:26 > 0:26:31and Sinn Fein's emphasis would be on seeing the increasing primacy
0:26:31 > 0:26:36of a social Europe, nevertheless it's an arena essential for ensuring
0:26:36 > 0:26:40that regulations and directives are brought forward which entrench
0:26:40 > 0:26:44human rights, democratic rights that are essential to economic growth
0:26:44 > 0:26:50and prosperity and in the case of our own state here in the North
0:26:50 > 0:26:53of Ireland, has played a hugely influential,
0:26:53 > 0:26:54important role in the peace process.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58Do you agree with all of that, Theresa Villiers?
0:26:58 > 0:26:59APPLAUSE
0:26:59 > 0:27:04Well, I agree with what the Prime Minister's said in the past
0:27:04 > 0:27:07and I think he reiterated it today that of course the UK
0:27:07 > 0:27:09could be a success outside the European Union.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13The question is, are we better off outside or inside the European Union
0:27:13 > 0:27:17and that will really depend on the outcome of the
0:27:17 > 0:27:19very important negotiations that the Prime Minister's conducting
0:27:19 > 0:27:22at the moment and we hope will culminate in February.
0:27:22 > 0:27:26This is a crucial question and I'm proud of the fact that it's
0:27:26 > 0:27:29a Conservative Government giving the people of the United Kingdom
0:27:29 > 0:27:32the choice to vote on our relationship with Europe.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34Have you decided how you'll vote?
0:27:34 > 0:27:36We all need to wait...
0:27:36 > 0:27:38LAUGHTER
0:27:38 > 0:27:40..the outcome of the negotiation.
0:27:40 > 0:27:41That is going to be crucial.
0:27:41 > 0:27:45It depends whether the other member states of the European Union listen
0:27:45 > 0:27:49to the reasonable arguments that the Prime Minister is putting
0:27:49 > 0:27:53to them about the huge need for change in the European Union.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57So staying in on the terms we are at the moment,
0:27:57 > 0:28:01as Chris Grayling said, would be a disaster in your view also,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03would it? If nothing is brought back, you will be voting get out?
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Certainly no-one is happy with the status quo,
0:28:05 > 0:28:08the Prime Minister isn't and the Government isn't.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11Frankly many people across this country would agree
0:28:11 > 0:28:15that the European Union needs to change and become more competitive,
0:28:15 > 0:28:17it needs to be fairer to countries out of the eurozone.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19We don't know what he is going to come back with,
0:28:19 > 0:28:23but if he comes back with nothing, you will be voting to leave?
0:28:23 > 0:28:26- The Government will take a view...- And you... ?
0:28:26 > 0:28:30We need to wait and see what the outcome of the negotiation
0:28:30 > 0:28:33is and then the reality is that every man and woman in this
0:28:33 > 0:28:35country has the choice, it doesn't really matter
0:28:35 > 0:28:37what members of the Government think, the...
0:28:37 > 0:28:40It quite matters what the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
0:28:40 > 0:28:43- thinks, doesn't it? - I think the...
0:28:43 > 0:28:45When you have had this case made by Sinn Fein
0:28:45 > 0:28:47how vital it is for Northern Ireland to stay in?
0:28:47 > 0:28:49The important thing is that the people of this country
0:28:49 > 0:28:51will get the right to vote.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53You've said that.
0:28:53 > 0:28:57Do you accept the interests of the people in Northern Ireland
0:28:57 > 0:28:59are better served by staying in Europe or not?
0:28:59 > 0:29:02We need to await the outcome of the negotiation.
0:29:02 > 0:29:03LAUGHTER AND GROANS
0:29:03 > 0:29:07The reality is, you know, the position of Northern Ireland
0:29:07 > 0:29:09is something, of course, which people should and will,
0:29:09 > 0:29:13I'm sure, reflect on in choosing which way they are going to vote.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15The woman with her hand up?
0:29:15 > 0:29:17Yes, it's you. The microphone over your head.
0:29:17 > 0:29:23As a student, I'm not...
0:29:23 > 0:29:25I can't vote.
0:29:25 > 0:29:29You said every person will have the right to vote.
0:29:29 > 0:29:34I'm only 17 and if the vote happens before my 18th birthday,
0:29:34 > 0:29:37I will not have a say in that and I do not think
0:29:37 > 0:29:39that is right at all.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41What would your say be?
0:29:41 > 0:29:42I would vote to stay.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45And you, sir, there?
0:29:45 > 0:29:47Yes, you.
0:29:47 > 0:29:53I object strongly to a bunch of unelected bureaucrats sitting
0:29:53 > 0:30:01in Brussels telling me what I can do in my own country.
0:30:01 > 0:30:06I believe the EU needs us a lot more than we need them.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10We have gone on our own before, we can do so again.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12APPLAUSE
0:30:12 > 0:30:16Would your vote change depending on what David Cameron
0:30:16 > 0:30:18brought back from Europe or not?
0:30:18 > 0:30:22David Cameron would need to bring a great deal back for me to become
0:30:22 > 0:30:24convinced we are better off in Europe.
0:30:24 > 0:30:26What would he have to bring back?
0:30:26 > 0:30:29Well, he'd have to come back having changed human rights legislation,
0:30:29 > 0:30:33European courts, the amount of contributions we put
0:30:33 > 0:30:37into Europe every year. I firmly believe a lot of that money
0:30:37 > 0:30:40would be better spent stimulating growth in our own country.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47Sounds like Brexit for you.
0:30:47 > 0:30:48Peter Hain?
0:30:48 > 0:30:51- Do you want to answer his point?- Absolutely.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53I will be keen to do so.
0:30:53 > 0:30:57First of all there's an elected European Parliament.
0:30:57 > 0:30:59Northern Ireland sends European MPs.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01It's very powerful.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05It's not a question of unelected bureaucrats sitting in Brussels -
0:31:05 > 0:31:06they have significant influence.
0:31:06 > 0:31:10We have a commissioner in Brussels as well,
0:31:10 > 0:31:13British Commissioner, very significant influence.
0:31:13 > 0:31:17As a Government, we have a veto in the European Council on a whole
0:31:17 > 0:31:18series of issues.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20I'm afraid you're factually wrong.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23Can I just express astonishment that Theresa,
0:31:23 > 0:31:26the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland,
0:31:26 > 0:31:29doesn't have a view on whether or not Northern Ireland
0:31:29 > 0:31:31would be better off outside the European Union?
0:31:31 > 0:31:33APPLAUSE
0:31:36 > 0:31:44I think Britain leaving Europe would have very serious implications
0:31:44 > 0:31:46for the peace process.
0:31:46 > 0:31:50Borders would have to go up between the two parts of the island
0:31:50 > 0:31:53of Ireland, which are now in a happier state
0:31:53 > 0:31:55than we have seen for centuries.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58I also think it would be catastrophic for Britain.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01You said that they need us more than we need them.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04Half our trade is with the European Union.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07Only 10% of their trade is with us.
0:32:07 > 0:32:12Jobs, investment, prosperity, vital to keep us within Europe.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15Do you want to come back on the point? ..No? OK.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18You, sir, here, you on the gangway here.
0:32:18 > 0:32:20Yeah, you.
0:32:20 > 0:32:25We have already heard Declan and now Peter come up with the standard
0:32:25 > 0:32:28scare tactics used to encourage us to stay in Europe.
0:32:28 > 0:32:33They've told us we rely on the money and that we rely on it for jobs.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36But most of the figures show that is not true.
0:32:36 > 0:32:40And frankly, saying, as Declan did, that we need all the money
0:32:40 > 0:32:44from Europe to keep Northern Ireland going because we dare not risk
0:32:44 > 0:32:46what happens otherwise is like saying, "I should stay
0:32:46 > 0:32:49"on the dole rather than risk getting a job."
0:32:49 > 0:32:51Here's a question for Theresa.
0:32:51 > 0:32:55In the event of a Brexit, and in the event that the European
0:32:55 > 0:32:59funding that we have become so dependent upon in order to keep
0:32:59 > 0:33:03the Northern regional economy afloat, will this Tory Government
0:33:03 > 0:33:06commit to ensuring that that funding will be replaced?
0:33:06 > 0:33:10And that there be an additional increment to our block grant
0:33:10 > 0:33:13to replace the European funding we would lose in the event
0:33:13 > 0:33:15- of a Brexit? - Do you want to answer?
0:33:15 > 0:33:19These are matters which need to be debated during a referendum.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21The answer is yes or no.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23Clearly, in the event of a Brexit,
0:33:23 > 0:33:28there will be a debate about what would be substituted for current
0:33:28 > 0:33:29European funding.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31But these are matters for debate
0:33:31 > 0:33:34so people will make up their minds one way or another.
0:33:34 > 0:33:40You say it's silly to say, like being on the dole or something.
0:33:40 > 0:33:42Do you think there will be a problem for Northern Ireland
0:33:42 > 0:33:44if the UK voted out?
0:33:44 > 0:33:47No, I think it would be a positive thing both for Northern Ireland
0:33:47 > 0:33:49and for the rest of the UK.
0:33:49 > 0:33:50Positive?
0:33:50 > 0:33:52It would bring us...
0:33:52 > 0:33:53APPLAUSE
0:33:53 > 0:33:56It would bring us increased prosperity
0:33:56 > 0:33:58and give us a right over our own border.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00Peter says we'd have to put up border controls.
0:34:00 > 0:34:04There were never border controls before we joined the European Union
0:34:04 > 0:34:08with the Irish Republic and it's not going to change if we leave.
0:34:08 > 0:34:09Nigel Dodds. Briefly.
0:34:09 > 0:34:13We'd have floods of refugees coming in -
0:34:13 > 0:34:15we'd have to have border controls.
0:34:15 > 0:34:18We have a common travel area between the Irish Republic
0:34:18 > 0:34:20and the rest of the UK.
0:34:20 > 0:34:21What about the main point - the substance?
0:34:21 > 0:34:24A lot of scaremongering will go on.
0:34:24 > 0:34:27We've heard David Cameron will run Project Fear - scare people.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30This business about the difference between Northern Ireland
0:34:30 > 0:34:33and the Republic and border controls, we've heard it all before.
0:34:33 > 0:34:35We heard it very recently
0:34:35 > 0:34:38when the argument was we should all join the euro.
0:34:38 > 0:34:40Do you remember that?
0:34:40 > 0:34:43We were told it would be terrible if the UK is not in the euro
0:34:43 > 0:34:44and the Republic joins the euro.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47There was a currency equivalence between Northern Ireland
0:34:47 > 0:34:49and the Republic for decades.
0:34:49 > 0:34:53We were told this would be disastrous for trade and business.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56What happened? Nothing happened. The reality is that Northern Ireland
0:34:56 > 0:34:57and the UK can survive quite well,
0:34:57 > 0:35:00and many would argue, better outside the EU.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04The crucial fact is this -
0:35:04 > 0:35:07in terms of grants and all the rest of it,
0:35:07 > 0:35:12the UK has paid to Europe since 1973 £450 billion.
0:35:12 > 0:35:16Each year we pay in £19 billion and get back £10 billion.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19A deficit of £9 billion.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22Northern Ireland, to pick up on Declan's point,
0:35:22 > 0:35:26for every pound out of Europe we pay in £1.50.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29This idea that all this money comes as largesse, is given to us,
0:35:29 > 0:35:33it's our money coming back at a reduced rate!
0:35:33 > 0:35:37- That needs to be addressed... - Will you vote out or to stay in?
0:35:37 > 0:35:42As things stand, I would certainly be voting to come out.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45I have to see David Cameron coming back from his negotiations
0:35:45 > 0:35:49with a very, very clear message that we're going to restore
0:35:49 > 0:35:52the sovereignty of the United Kingdom's parliament,
0:35:52 > 0:35:57that we will restore control over our borders and we're
0:35:57 > 0:36:02going to address the situation where £350 million every week
0:36:02 > 0:36:06is transferred from British exchequer which could build
0:36:06 > 0:36:10hospitals, help our health waiting lists, create jobs...
0:36:10 > 0:36:14In reality, do you expect to get that?
0:36:14 > 0:36:16If that is your view, you will be voting out, won't you?
0:36:16 > 0:36:18Because none of that seems to be on the agenda.
0:36:18 > 0:36:22David Cameron has set the bar very, very low in my opinion.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25One of his own MPs stood up in Parliament and described it
0:36:25 > 0:36:28as thin gruel. He needs to step up the game.
0:36:28 > 0:36:29He has a lot of leverage.
0:36:29 > 0:36:33The European Union does need the United Kingdom.
0:36:33 > 0:36:37The trade deficit is in the European Union's benefit.
0:36:37 > 0:36:39There is a £60 billion trade deficit.
0:36:39 > 0:36:43They need the United Kingdom's business far more than
0:36:43 > 0:36:45we need their business.
0:36:45 > 0:36:47- That's the reality of it. - You, sir.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50I think following up on what Nigel and Declan have both said,
0:36:50 > 0:36:54it doesn't make much difference financially or economically
0:36:54 > 0:36:55whether we are in or out.
0:36:55 > 0:36:59What I would like to see is a change of Brussels interfering
0:36:59 > 0:37:03with our legal systems and our human rights, as Nigel has talked about.
0:37:03 > 0:37:05If we don't get some change in that area,
0:37:05 > 0:37:07I would like to see us bailing out.
0:37:07 > 0:37:08Grainne Maguire.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14I just think, considering what the first topic that we talked
0:37:14 > 0:37:18about today, how dangerous Putin is, I think that's more evidence
0:37:18 > 0:37:20of anything that we need to work together.
0:37:20 > 0:37:24To me, that's an example of why Europe is so important.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27We're stronger when Europe works together.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30Now, I think I'm on the minority on the panel here.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32I really like Europe.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35I like the idea of Europe. I think...
0:37:35 > 0:37:37APPLAUSE
0:37:37 > 0:37:39I think it's because...
0:37:39 > 0:37:43Growing up in Ireland in the '90s, it seemed like really
0:37:43 > 0:37:44big and glamorous.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47I think I associate it with the Eurovision,
0:37:47 > 0:37:51but I see, personally, I view Europe as like a left-wing
0:37:51 > 0:37:53House of Lords.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57So whenever the Tory Government brings in some crazy new plan -
0:37:57 > 0:37:59"We are scrapping pedestrian crossings,
0:37:59 > 0:38:01"it's slowing business down",
0:38:01 > 0:38:04we can look to Angela Merkel and she'll go, "It's fine."
0:38:04 > 0:38:07LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:38:07 > 0:38:12No, but I think, to use an analogy, right, Britain is better off
0:38:12 > 0:38:15being the bad boy of Europe than leaving.
0:38:15 > 0:38:19We are better off being Zayn Malik in One Direction
0:38:19 > 0:38:21than being Zayn Malik solo.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24APPLAUSE
0:38:24 > 0:38:30Once we get close to the referendum, I won't be allowed to do this.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33As a matter of interest, hands up those of you who
0:38:33 > 0:38:34at the moment would vote out?
0:38:36 > 0:38:38Who would vote in?
0:38:38 > 0:38:41Yeah. About double the numbers staying in.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44Interesting. Interesting.
0:38:44 > 0:38:47Shall we go on to another question? I think we'd better.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50David Airey, please. David Airey.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53Will Northern Irish politics ever get to the stage
0:38:53 > 0:38:57where we have a ruling party and an opposition rather than this
0:38:57 > 0:39:00forced marriage that continues indefinitely.
0:39:00 > 0:39:05This is... We touched on this briefly, over gay marriage.
0:39:05 > 0:39:10The idea that the Assembly doesn't have a simple majority,
0:39:10 > 0:39:14it has a majority that is then checked by keeping DUP,
0:39:14 > 0:39:18Sinn Fein, left, right, Catholic, Protestant,
0:39:18 > 0:39:22however you like to put it, in the business.
0:39:22 > 0:39:24Peter Hain, you were Northern Ireland Secretary.
0:39:24 > 0:39:28Do you think there will ever be a state when you can have a simple
0:39:28 > 0:39:32opposition and government as we have at Westminster?
0:39:32 > 0:39:33Yes, I think there will.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35I don't think it's going to be soon.
0:39:35 > 0:39:39A lot more trust needs to be built, a lot of generational change needs
0:39:39 > 0:39:41to settle in before that happens.
0:39:41 > 0:39:45It will be a decision for the people of Northern Ireland,
0:39:45 > 0:39:47not for secretaries of state.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50In time, Northern Ireland, as politics normalises,
0:39:50 > 0:39:55and moves away from historic divisions, I think it will move
0:39:55 > 0:39:59towards like it does in other societies - left and right,
0:39:59 > 0:40:01class-based perhaps, other issues coming in.
0:40:01 > 0:40:03And that will be healthy.
0:40:03 > 0:40:07I think it would be premature and actually quite destabilising
0:40:07 > 0:40:10to rush into that at the present time or,
0:40:10 > 0:40:13frankly, for the foreseeable future.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16Foreseeable future being what? 20, 30 years?
0:40:16 > 0:40:18- Decades.- Decades.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21That is not for me to decide. That is my instinct at the moment.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24People raise, occasionally, the idea that you could have a truth
0:40:24 > 0:40:27and reconciliation commission like in South Africa,
0:40:27 > 0:40:30for instance, here in Northern Ireland where people talk
0:40:30 > 0:40:33about what happened in the past and then put it to one side.
0:40:33 > 0:40:37Lord Eames, a former archbishop of Ireland,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40he was author of a report with Dennis Bradley,
0:40:40 > 0:40:45who is a nationalist, who came out with a very good set
0:40:45 > 0:40:50of proposals for addressing exactly these sort of issues.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53The problem is - everybody said, great report, except for one
0:40:53 > 0:40:57recommendation which was ill-judged on compensation.
0:40:57 > 0:41:01A great report, an American diplomat came out with a similar report.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05It's log-jammed and gridlocked in the Northern Ireland Assembly.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09That is wrong. The past haunts Northern Ireland.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12It has to be addressed, particularly victims' grievances
0:41:12 > 0:41:16and sense of injustice addressed through that process.
0:41:16 > 0:41:20Declan Kearney, do you agree with Peter Hain it will be decades
0:41:20 > 0:41:23before you can have a simple majority government
0:41:23 > 0:41:25here in Northern Ireland?
0:41:25 > 0:41:30We concluded a negotiation just eight to ten weeks ago,
0:41:30 > 0:41:36the Stormont House Agreement Fresh Start, and within the provisions
0:41:36 > 0:41:41of the agreement is a contingency for the emergence of an opposition
0:41:41 > 0:41:44here in the Assembly.
0:41:44 > 0:41:48So the facility is now in place to be enacted at an appropriate time
0:41:48 > 0:41:53in the future when there are sufficient numbers who wish
0:41:53 > 0:41:55to go into opposition.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59The reality is that we have our unique political framework
0:41:59 > 0:42:03as a direct result of the context that we have all lived through.
0:42:03 > 0:42:06So we're now looking at a fresh start.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08I hope it will be a new start.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12I hope that we're going to see a period opening up
0:42:12 > 0:42:14when we can embed power-sharing,
0:42:14 > 0:42:17where we can in fact see partnership government.
0:42:17 > 0:42:22The fact is, for the last five years, the political instability
0:42:22 > 0:42:25that we saw develop, which gave rise to the crisis
0:42:25 > 0:42:29of the last 12 months, was largely unleashed as a result
0:42:29 > 0:42:33of the failure of Theresa's party in Government
0:42:33 > 0:42:37with the Lib Dems and the Irish Government in Dublin to stay
0:42:37 > 0:42:40properly focused on their responsibilities as co-guarantors
0:42:40 > 0:42:42for the peace and political process.
0:42:42 > 0:42:45Could it happen now? Right now?
0:42:45 > 0:42:49What we need to do is open up a space where we can embed politics,
0:42:49 > 0:42:52where we can make politics work.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56Politics has had a bad name in the course of the last few years
0:42:56 > 0:42:58within wider society.
0:42:58 > 0:42:59We haven't seen enough delivery.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03It's time that the institutions began to deliver for unionist
0:43:03 > 0:43:06and republican working-class people across the North and work
0:43:06 > 0:43:09for the business community and for the labour movement.
0:43:09 > 0:43:14It's time we saw us move to a stage where our peace process can in fact
0:43:14 > 0:43:18develop into a new phase where we can indeed begin
0:43:18 > 0:43:20to look at reconciliation,
0:43:20 > 0:43:24where we can look at the healing process and ensure that
0:43:24 > 0:43:27all of our children in the future enjoy an entirely different
0:43:27 > 0:43:30political and economic context than many in the audience
0:43:30 > 0:43:33here will have experienced in recent decades.
0:43:33 > 0:43:36APPLAUSE
0:43:36 > 0:43:38Nigel Dodds, do you agree with that?
0:43:38 > 0:43:41Can it be achieved sooner than decades away?
0:43:41 > 0:43:44I would like to think it would be sooner than decades away.
0:43:44 > 0:43:48I would like to see it happen as quickly as possible.
0:43:48 > 0:43:52We have advocated moving away from these sort of rigid structures.
0:43:52 > 0:43:56I think the Fresh Start Agreement that Declan Kearney referred to
0:43:56 > 0:43:59provides an opportunity now for us to move forward.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02It does include reforms to the number of government
0:44:02 > 0:44:06departments from 2020, a reduction in the number of MLAs at Stormont.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09It does include provision for opposition for parties that
0:44:09 > 0:44:11are elected and wish to take that role going forward.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15So I think that we need to move forward on these issues.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18I would like to see it happen as quickly as possible, obviously.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22Let's not forget how far we have come in a relatively short time.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25- It is not that long ago... - Absolutely.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28where it would have been impossible to contemplate us having
0:44:28 > 0:44:31arguments about the issues we have been talking
0:44:31 > 0:44:33about and discussing tonight.
0:44:33 > 0:44:37It would have been dominated by the latest terrorist atrocity
0:44:37 > 0:44:41or the latest massive political standoff and all the rest of it
0:44:41 > 0:44:44on very fundamental constitutional issues.
0:44:44 > 0:44:46We have come an enormously long way.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48We need to always remember that.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51We have our challenges and difficulties, I think
0:44:51 > 0:44:54the Fresh Start Agreement, which has now been set in place,
0:44:54 > 0:44:58has already made some transformation in the political landscape.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00People are talking positively about the future
0:45:00 > 0:45:02of Northern Ireland.
0:45:02 > 0:45:06We need to build on that and see what can be achieved incrementally.
0:45:06 > 0:45:10I think it's wrong to simply say - to forget and not remind ourselves
0:45:10 > 0:45:12how far we have come in recent years.
0:45:12 > 0:45:14- Totally right.- You, sir.
0:45:16 > 0:45:18Peter Hain is correct.
0:45:18 > 0:45:19It's going to take time.
0:45:19 > 0:45:24In the High Court, Mr Justice Weir is reviewing 250 legacy inquests,
0:45:24 > 0:45:27which he says will take 40 years to hear.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30We won't deal with our past until there's an influx of funding.
0:45:30 > 0:45:34The politicians need to set up a system whereby we can deal
0:45:34 > 0:45:37with our past and move on to our future, simple as that.
0:45:37 > 0:45:42- You, sir?- Just quickly, I was three when the Good Friday Agreement
0:45:42 > 0:45:46was passed and having grown up my whole life with my parents
0:45:46 > 0:45:50and all the rest of it and a lot of people around me
0:45:50 > 0:45:54who were proponents of the Good Friday Agreement
0:45:54 > 0:45:58and so would I have been, but studying politics at university,
0:45:58 > 0:46:02we're looking at the fact that the Good Friday Agreement has
0:46:02 > 0:46:05actually only entrenched divisions.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08I understand it's been a success in the 18 years
0:46:08 > 0:46:12since the Good Friday Agreement that we have had relative peace,
0:46:12 > 0:46:15but we are not a normal kind of political society
0:46:15 > 0:46:18and Rick Wilford, a professor at Queens, has actually said that
0:46:18 > 0:46:22the electoral system that we have actually only entrenches divisions.
0:46:22 > 0:46:25We de facto have two elections take place here - a unionist election
0:46:25 > 0:46:27and a nationalist election.
0:46:27 > 0:46:31Yes, people will say, what about the middle parties,
0:46:31 > 0:46:32the parties who are non-aligned?
0:46:32 > 0:46:35And that's a fair point but they only make up
0:46:35 > 0:46:38about 8.5% share of the vote.
0:46:38 > 0:46:42So if we want to move from conflict management to conflict resolution,
0:46:42 > 0:46:45we need to start looking at a new process, an innovative
0:46:45 > 0:46:49process to engage the new generation coming up who didn't grow up
0:46:49 > 0:46:53with those kind of legacy issues of the past.
0:46:53 > 0:46:54Thank you very much.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57APPLAUSE Theresa?
0:47:01 > 0:47:05You hear what he says, that the present constitution
0:47:05 > 0:47:09entrenches opposing groups and doesn't allow them
0:47:09 > 0:47:10to come together?
0:47:10 > 0:47:14Well, I'm a strong supporter of the institution set up under
0:47:14 > 0:47:17the Belfast Good Friday Agreement.
0:47:17 > 0:47:21I think it's rightly held up around the world as a model of how to bring
0:47:21 > 0:47:24peace after many years of division.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28Yes, it's not perfect and I agree with what's been said around
0:47:28 > 0:47:32the panel, I would like to see it move towards a more normal system
0:47:32 > 0:47:35of government with a more regular government in opposition.
0:47:35 > 0:47:39The reality is, as Declan says, it's already changing.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42The Stormont House and Fresh Start Agreement already deliver
0:47:42 > 0:47:45official provision for an opposition.
0:47:45 > 0:47:46These things take time.
0:47:46 > 0:47:51It will be years before we can move away from a mandatory coalition.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54But whilst these institutions are not perfect, as they are,
0:47:54 > 0:47:58they have brought peace and they have delivered a huge
0:47:58 > 0:48:01amount for Northern Ireland, not least in the sphere
0:48:01 > 0:48:04of the economy where the Northern Ireland economy
0:48:04 > 0:48:06is recovering strongly.
0:48:06 > 0:48:09I think the executive have done an excellent job in terms
0:48:09 > 0:48:11of bringing in inward investment and jobs,
0:48:11 > 0:48:15partly caused by the Government's long-term economic plan but also
0:48:15 > 0:48:18caused by the responsibility of a responsible executive
0:48:18 > 0:48:21which demonstrates that people from very different political
0:48:21 > 0:48:24perspectives can work together for the good of all people
0:48:24 > 0:48:25in Northern Ireland.
0:48:25 > 0:48:29Declan and Nigel wouldn't have been on this programme as recently
0:48:29 > 0:48:32as nine years ago, now they are arguing about gay marriage,
0:48:32 > 0:48:36- I mean that's massive progress and you should welcome it.- Yes.
0:48:36 > 0:48:40I remember when we used to have to interview the different parties
0:48:40 > 0:48:43in different studios because they wouldn't come
0:48:43 > 0:48:47into the same studio and we spent the whole time walking from one
0:48:47 > 0:48:50studio to another to catch up with the argument.
0:48:50 > 0:48:52The same negotiating.
0:48:52 > 0:48:57- You, sir?- Thank you. I love the idea of the opposition.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00It will be great for Stormont, it will.
0:49:00 > 0:49:04I totally agree with the Fresh Start and with the Secretary of State's
0:49:04 > 0:49:07quote, it will be successful.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10OK. And you? And, then, I'll come to you, Grainne.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13Sorry, the man behind you. He had his hand up longer!
0:49:13 > 0:49:17Just going back to the question about will there ever be a one-party
0:49:17 > 0:49:21government that actually represents the North of Ireland.
0:49:21 > 0:49:24Obviously, with Peter Hain saying about the past,
0:49:24 > 0:49:27you know, it's important that we do move forward and we forget
0:49:27 > 0:49:30about the past but that also dictates our future.
0:49:30 > 0:49:34There was one-party government for a long time to the detriment
0:49:34 > 0:49:39of one people so obviously I hope in the future we can come to that,
0:49:39 > 0:49:42but that it will be for the benefit of everyone
0:49:42 > 0:49:45in the whole of Northern Ireland.
0:49:45 > 0:49:49And you, sir, on the gangway.
0:49:49 > 0:49:53I think we have come a long way, as Nigel says, and that's to be
0:49:53 > 0:49:57praised, but also political posturing from the new First
0:49:57 > 0:50:01Minister over, for example, the 1916 commemorations
0:50:01 > 0:50:05and our unwillingness to participate in contrast to even
0:50:05 > 0:50:09the Queen's visit to Dublin several years ago and the steps
0:50:09 > 0:50:14that she showed that bring goodwill towards the relations both
0:50:14 > 0:50:18here and between the two islands, I think maybe small sort
0:50:18 > 0:50:23of political posturing like that doesn't help inclusivity.
0:50:23 > 0:50:25All right. Grainne?
0:50:27 > 0:50:30Regarding... From an outsider's point of view,
0:50:30 > 0:50:33obviously what happened, the Northern Ireland peace process
0:50:33 > 0:50:36is incredible, it's studied around the world,
0:50:36 > 0:50:38what it's achieved is incredible.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41I can understand people's frustration with it because,
0:50:41 > 0:50:45just from reading about it, it's like, "Stormont, it's all going
0:50:45 > 0:50:48"fine, no, it's about to collapse, no, it's fine again!
0:50:48 > 0:50:50"No, we hate each other again,"
0:50:50 > 0:50:54and it does sometimes sound like an episode of Dawson's Creek
0:50:54 > 0:50:58rather than a political process.
0:50:58 > 0:51:03Maybe you guys need a book club or reiki circle, I don't know.
0:51:03 > 0:51:08The 1916 centenary, I can speak with authority because my grandad
0:51:08 > 0:51:12fought in the Irish uprising, he found love late in life,
0:51:12 > 0:51:16and I can understand the First Minister if she didn't
0:51:16 > 0:51:19want to attend, if she was worried Bono might pop up...
0:51:19 > 0:51:24because that is something Irish people have to live with every day!
0:51:24 > 0:51:26He could just pop up at any moment,
0:51:26 > 0:51:28so if that's her reason for avoiding it,
0:51:28 > 0:51:29I totally respect that.
0:51:32 > 0:51:37There are two game-changing dynamics that need to be introduced
0:51:37 > 0:51:39to allow us to move things on.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42The first is, the British Government, Theresa's Government,
0:51:42 > 0:51:46need to lift the veto on information disclosure to ensure we can move
0:51:46 > 0:51:49forward with the mechanisms for dealing with our past.
0:51:49 > 0:51:51The second thing is, they need to lift the cuts
0:51:51 > 0:51:55they are imposing on public services and the cuts they are making
0:51:55 > 0:51:57to the block grant here in the North.
0:51:57 > 0:51:59Austerity has to stop in Northern Ireland.
0:52:01 > 0:52:06A few minutes left. And John Docherty has a question...
0:52:06 > 0:52:12Are Donald Trump and Sarah Palin the dream team for the US elections?
0:52:12 > 0:52:18Are Donald Trump and Sarah Palin the dream team? Nigel Dodds.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21I think it more like a nightmare team for some, isn't it?
0:52:21 > 0:52:24I was really surprised that Sarah Palin came out in support
0:52:24 > 0:52:28of Donald Trump because she portrays herself as a conservative
0:52:28 > 0:52:30and Donald Trump being this urban New Yorker
0:52:30 > 0:52:34is not in the tradition of normal conservatives in America.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37And Jeb Bush has been saying this, very clearly.
0:52:37 > 0:52:39It is a phenomenal situation
0:52:39 > 0:52:44that Donald Trump's now being seriously talked about by people
0:52:44 > 0:52:49in America as a probable Republican nominee for President which I think
0:52:49 > 0:52:53is, if nothing else, gives Grainne tonnes of material
0:52:53 > 0:52:56to work with for many years to come!
0:52:56 > 0:52:59- Do you think it's likely? - I think it's increasingly likely.
0:52:59 > 0:53:03His poll ratings do not seem to be diminishing and they seem
0:53:03 > 0:53:04to be increasing.
0:53:04 > 0:53:09His nearest challenger is one Ted Cruise, a very staunch
0:53:09 > 0:53:12populist tea-party right-winger.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14There's something fundamental going on in America
0:53:14 > 0:53:17which is that people are fed up with the traditional
0:53:17 > 0:53:20politics of America which they believe has let down
0:53:20 > 0:53:22the ordinary middle class, as they put it,
0:53:22 > 0:53:25and is not standing up for America in the world
0:53:25 > 0:53:28and clearly this is a matter for the citizens of the US.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30They are going to go to the polls very soon.
0:53:30 > 0:53:34There was a debate on Monday in Westminster on Donald Trump
0:53:34 > 0:53:37and I think the consensus was that it would be wrong
0:53:37 > 0:53:41to ban him from the UK, it's totally wrong, you know,
0:53:41 > 0:53:44we should have an engagement debate, certainly somebody who may
0:53:44 > 0:53:48be the leader of the free world but we should challenge him about some
0:53:48 > 0:53:51of his views which are repugnant.
0:53:51 > 0:53:55However, he's tapping into a chord of disconnect between politicians in
0:53:55 > 0:53:57Washington and the ordinary people.
0:53:57 > 0:54:01It's a lesson also for the countries and governments of Europe as well.
0:54:01 > 0:54:04We should listen to the people.
0:54:04 > 0:54:05Peter Hain?
0:54:05 > 0:54:10An angry electorate to whom Trump and Palin would appeal?
0:54:10 > 0:54:14Yes, but the thought of Donald Trump being President of the United States
0:54:14 > 0:54:19and Vladimir Putin being President of Russia and the two being the most
0:54:19 > 0:54:22powerful nations in the world is appalling and I was disgusted
0:54:22 > 0:54:26by Donald Trump's statement about banning Muslims from entering
0:54:26 > 0:54:28the United States of America.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31That Islamophobia is absolutely disgusting.
0:54:31 > 0:54:35I noticed, by the way, that he did that in response
0:54:35 > 0:54:41to a Jihadi couple massacring a group of people in California.
0:54:41 > 0:54:47When it came to white psychopaths killing students or children,
0:54:47 > 0:54:49he says, give them more guns.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52This guy is absurd.
0:54:52 > 0:54:57APPLAUSE All right. You, sir, you on the end. Brief point.
0:54:57 > 0:55:02The ultimate nightmare will be Donald Trump, President,
0:55:02 > 0:55:06and Miss Palin, Secretary of State.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09- LAUGHTER - She would start with a great advantage,
0:55:09 > 0:55:11she would be able to keep an eye on Mr Putin
0:55:11 > 0:55:13from her home in Alaska.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:55:18 > 0:55:21Yes. That was her famous claim last time.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23"I know about Russia because I can see it."
0:55:23 > 0:55:25Theresa Villiers?
0:55:25 > 0:55:29The only people for whom a Donald Trump Sarah Palin team would be
0:55:29 > 0:55:32the dream team are Mrs Clinton and the Democrats.
0:55:32 > 0:55:37It's a worrying thought, the idea of Donald Trump as President
0:55:37 > 0:55:41of the United States and I think his comments on barring
0:55:41 > 0:55:45Muslims from entering the United States are really
0:55:45 > 0:55:50unacceptable and really offensive to many people so I think it's
0:55:50 > 0:55:55a worrying situation in the US, it's entirely a matter for them,
0:55:55 > 0:55:58but I find some of the comments that Donald Trump has come out with to be
0:55:58 > 0:56:02completely unacceptable and I think it would be very worrying
0:56:02 > 0:56:05if he ended up as one of the most powerful people in the world.
0:56:05 > 0:56:08Grainne Maguire?
0:56:08 > 0:56:11I feel really sorry for Sarah Palin because when she sobered up
0:56:11 > 0:56:14the next day and found out what she'd done, she must
0:56:14 > 0:56:16have been mortified.
0:56:16 > 0:56:20Realistically, Trump's pollings are relatively high
0:56:20 > 0:56:23because there are so many candidates still in the Republican race.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26When it narrows down, it's going to dissipate,
0:56:26 > 0:56:29and he's got more people polling saying they will never vote for him.
0:56:29 > 0:56:33So, it's unlikely. However, I've come up with a solution
0:56:33 > 0:56:36to if he comes to Britain - we dub him the way
0:56:36 > 0:56:39we used to dub Gerry Adams in the '90s and get somebody
0:56:39 > 0:56:43like Bruce Forsyth to read out everything he says.
0:56:43 > 0:56:44LAUGHTER
0:56:44 > 0:56:48APPLAUSE
0:56:48 > 0:56:52Declan, you have to be brief because we're coming to the end.
0:56:52 > 0:56:54I think it's characteristic of what we are seeing
0:56:54 > 0:56:58across the globe, the emergence of extremist right-wing views.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02My only hope is that the, uh...
0:57:02 > 0:57:07growth in support for Trump as it appears to be
0:57:07 > 0:57:09and people like Palin as cheerleaders
0:57:09 > 0:57:12will have an energising effect on those voices
0:57:12 > 0:57:14from within the progressive on the left
0:57:14 > 0:57:16and the democratic wing of American society
0:57:16 > 0:57:19so they don't become the definitive voice
0:57:19 > 0:57:22and they don't win the election.
0:57:22 > 0:57:26OK. One more point from the man sitting there in the blue shirt?
0:57:26 > 0:57:28I would agree with the panel.
0:57:28 > 0:57:32I do find it very concerning Donald Trump being President
0:57:32 > 0:57:36of America but I don't think that we should ban him from the UK.
0:57:36 > 0:57:39I only feel that that feeds into his PR machine and I already
0:57:39 > 0:57:43know that he's used this in debates for his favour.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46OK. I think we have to stop.
0:57:46 > 0:57:49Our hour is up. Sorry about that.
0:57:49 > 0:57:52Put another shilling in the meter!
0:57:54 > 0:57:57- Put another shilling in the meter! HAIN:- We'll stay.
0:57:57 > 0:57:59All right. No, our time is up.
0:57:59 > 0:58:03We're in Stamford, having another go in Lincolnshire next week.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05And then in Bradford the week after that.
0:58:05 > 0:58:08If you can come to either Stamford or Bradford,
0:58:08 > 0:58:11the website address is there.
0:58:14 > 0:58:18We'll ask you all sorts of questions about what you want to talk about.
0:58:18 > 0:58:23We'll have an audience like this one, beautifully divided representing
0:58:23 > 0:58:26the whole community. If you're listening on Radio 5 Live,
0:58:26 > 0:58:30the debate goes on on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:30 > 0:58:32It stops here, at least in the studio.
0:58:32 > 0:58:36My thanks to the panel, to all of you who came to take part.
0:58:36 > 0:58:40From the Titanic in Belfast, until next Thursday
0:58:40 > 0:58:42from Question Time, good night.
0:58:42 > 0:58:45APPLAUSE