:00:07. > :00:19.Tonight, we are in Bradford, and this is Question Time.
:00:20. > :00:25.And a big welcome, whether you are watching or listening, and welcome
:00:26. > :00:29.to our audience and our panel. Tonight, the Conservative Energy
:00:30. > :00:34.Secretary, Amber Rudd. Labour's former Shadow Chief Secretary to the
:00:35. > :00:38.Treasury, Shabana Mahmood. Deputy leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall.
:00:39. > :00:42.President of the Liberal Democrats, Baroness Brinton, and author of the
:00:43. > :00:46.controversial biography of David Cameron, about to become political
:00:47. > :00:59.editor at large of the Daily Mail, Isabel Oakeshott.
:01:00. > :01:27.Let's have our first question from dawn Thornton. Has David Cameron
:01:28. > :01:35.done enough to convince the nation to stay in Europe? Amber Rudd. That
:01:36. > :01:40.is up to the nation to decide when we get the referendum. But do you
:01:41. > :01:45.think he has done enough to convince the nation? We know the nation will
:01:46. > :01:49.decide. Yes. That is my point, it is not going to be up to individuals in
:01:50. > :01:53.government, it will be up to the whole country. My point is to say
:01:54. > :01:57.that we had a decision to give a referendum, which will take place
:01:58. > :02:01.this year. David Cameron said he would negotiate, which he has done
:02:02. > :02:05.and he has brought back a package. It is not a final agreement, but a
:02:06. > :02:11.package that deals with the things most people find most irritating in
:02:12. > :02:14.the UK, to do with sovereignty, competitiveness, immigration and not
:02:15. > :02:19.being left out of decision-making when the eurozone may feel they are
:02:20. > :02:22.making decisions without us. In your opinion, as the Prime Minister done
:02:23. > :02:27.enough to convince people in the nation as a whole to stay in? We
:02:28. > :02:33.have to wait and see because it is not complete. You do not think the
:02:34. > :02:38.job is done. He's the first to say that. But this is a milestone. In
:02:39. > :02:42.Parliament, usually we get Prime Minister is offering treaties,
:02:43. > :02:47.Maastricht, Lisbon, saying this is the treaty the UK will sign up to.
:02:48. > :02:51.For the first time we have a proposal unique to the UK. It is
:02:52. > :02:57.great progress. I hope negotiations go well and we will be in a position
:02:58. > :03:02.to campaign to stay in the EU. Do you still think there are
:03:03. > :03:06.circumstances where you might stay out, rather than remain? It depends
:03:07. > :03:14.how the next few weeks go. You are on a knife edge?
:03:15. > :03:17.I am encouraged by what we have seen, but we are still doing
:03:18. > :03:21.negotiations and we want to improve on them all the time. There are 27
:03:22. > :03:28.other member states who had to agree them. Timing will be critical and we
:03:29. > :03:31.are not there yet. Paul Nuttall. I am surprised you say he has made
:03:32. > :03:35.great progress because I think we can all agree that what he has come
:03:36. > :03:39.back with amounts to nothing. He asked for nothing and he will get
:03:40. > :03:44.nothing. A year ago he was talking about treaty change. There will be
:03:45. > :03:48.no treaty change, no powers coming back from Brussels to this country,
:03:49. > :03:54.no return of our fisheries, no reduction in our membership fee.
:03:55. > :04:00.What he will try to do is to sell this as a great victory. It is not.
:04:01. > :04:04.It is a great failure. So you must be hugely relieved because everybody
:04:05. > :04:10.will vote out. I am just not impressed. We are talking about a
:04:11. > :04:13.few glib lines about competitiveness, opposing ever
:04:14. > :04:18.greater union, a protection for non-EU rose own countries. I am not
:04:19. > :04:22.being funny, I sit in the European Parliament. There is ever closer
:04:23. > :04:28.union on every report we vote on every week. This idea of capping in
:04:29. > :04:32.work benefits for migrants does not add up to a hill of beans. The
:04:33. > :04:38.Guardian said today that it will affect very few people indeed,
:04:39. > :04:43.around 20 8000. Once we have a living wage, the poll will be even
:04:44. > :04:47.greater than it was before. Beyond that, to ensure this gets through
:04:48. > :04:52.needs a majority of member states to sign up to it and that is not going
:04:53. > :04:56.to happen. One last thing, we find out now that the European Parliament
:04:57. > :05:00.will be able to veto it. I am telling you, the European Parliament
:05:01. > :05:04.is no friend of Britain. It will not happen, it is not good enough,
:05:05. > :05:04.ladies and common. It is not good enough.
:05:05. > :05:13.APPLAUSE I go back to the point that you must
:05:14. > :05:18.be mightily relieved because your boys wanted to leave Europe anyway.
:05:19. > :05:22.Well, I think it gives us a better opportunity of leaving because the
:05:23. > :05:28.British people are clever enough to see through this show rather. The
:05:29. > :05:32.woman on the left. I am very much for going out of Europe because I
:05:33. > :05:36.think we are stronger out of it, but do you not think Ukip is actually
:05:37. > :05:42.the biggest threat for us to leave Europe? Can you explain that. At the
:05:43. > :05:48.moment, you have infighting between leave Europe and the other campaign,
:05:49. > :05:52.but do you not think that Ukip and Nigel Farage in particular are the
:05:53. > :05:58.biggest threat in terms of splitting that campaign and having a dilutive
:05:59. > :06:01.message? There are two points there. First, we would not have had this
:06:02. > :06:07.referendum if it was not for Ukip. Let's make that clear. Mr Cameron
:06:08. > :06:10.offered it to try to shoot the Ukip Fox, and he failed to do so because
:06:11. > :06:15.we won the European elections after he gave that guarantee. We are only
:06:16. > :06:18.here because of Ukip in the first place, and Ukip are the party trying
:06:19. > :06:25.to bring together these two campaigns. One is saying, yes,
:06:26. > :06:29.please come together. Now is the time, ladies and gentlemen, for
:06:30. > :06:33.these campaigns to put personalities aside, come together have one strong
:06:34. > :06:38.team, because personality should not matter. This is about the future of
:06:39. > :06:41.our country. We need to get our country back and we will only do
:06:42. > :06:47.that by leaving the European Union. APPLAUSE
:06:48. > :06:52.The central question, has David Cameron done enough, I don't think
:06:53. > :06:56.he has done enough yet, because the deal that he has achieved, which
:06:57. > :07:00.still has to be finalised, is not the central point. That is not the
:07:01. > :07:04.beginning, nor the end of the important decision we have to make
:07:05. > :07:06.about whether we stay in the European Union. I think David
:07:07. > :07:11.Cameron needs to make the more important case about how we cash
:07:12. > :07:15.back while why we need to stay, and that is the case around the fact
:07:16. > :07:19.that being in the European Union has established peace and security in
:07:20. > :07:23.our continent when war is something within living memory, that we have
:07:24. > :07:27.employment rights secured across Europe as a level playing field in
:07:28. > :07:32.which our workers benefit from things such as paid leave and equal
:07:33. > :07:34.rights for part-time workers. And fundamentally, the most important
:07:35. > :07:40.factor is access to the single market. 500 million people we can
:07:41. > :07:44.export to without having to pay any kind of tariff. That is a big deal
:07:45. > :07:48.and he has to make the case for the wider question of why we need to
:07:49. > :07:52.stay in the European Union. The question for Ukip, which they always
:07:53. > :07:57.fail to answer when we have a debate about the European Union is, what
:07:58. > :08:01.does the alternative of coming out of the European Union actually look
:08:02. > :08:04.like? If it looks like Norway, Iceland or Switzerland, who have
:08:05. > :08:07.access to the single market but on unfavourable terms that I would not
:08:08. > :08:15.want to sign up to, they never say which they would prefer. Can I
:08:16. > :08:17.answer? No, you have had a long say Ulster I will come back to you. Hold
:08:18. > :08:27.your horses. The person in the second row from
:08:28. > :08:31.the back. David Cameron knows he has not done enough which is why he is
:08:32. > :08:35.gagging cabinet ministers from saying what they really think.
:08:36. > :08:40.Reportedly, Amber Rudd, you are a Eurosceptic. What disappoints me is
:08:41. > :08:44.that people like you would rather look after your own interests than
:08:45. > :08:48.actually come out and lose a cabinet position because he has threatened
:08:49. > :08:48.to sack you. That is not good enough, unfortunately.
:08:49. > :08:58.APPLAUSE The allegation is that she is a
:08:59. > :09:01.closet euro-sceptic disguised as an enthusiast. I have unlimited
:09:02. > :09:08.research on this and there are reports that you are a Eurosceptic.
:09:09. > :09:15.I am not sure the reporting is entirely accurate. And note the
:09:16. > :09:17.adverb "Entirely". It is reasonable to sport the Prime Minister in
:09:18. > :09:22.getting the best negotiation possible. Whether there are people
:09:23. > :09:26.who still think they would prefer to be out, they still want the British
:09:27. > :09:31.to have the best choice, which will be the best negotiation we can have,
:09:32. > :09:39.or out. You would not want the best -- the worst negotiation. That is
:09:40. > :09:42.why the Cabinet support it. It is hardly fair for the Prime Minister
:09:43. > :09:46.to put the case as he sees it but sceptics in the Cabinet to be
:09:47. > :09:50.gagged. I can tell you the sceptics are very supportive of the Prime
:09:51. > :09:54.Minister to get the best negotiation he can. It does not mean they will
:09:55. > :10:02.support it but it means the best choice in terms of getting a final
:10:03. > :10:05.offer. I think this debate we have had now demonstrates how the
:10:06. > :10:09.Conservatives are completely torn apart on this, and the issues David
:10:10. > :10:12.Cameron has brought back are very important to those on the margin in
:10:13. > :10:17.the Conservative Party about whether to stay in or go out. I am a Liberal
:10:18. > :10:22.Democrat and a passionate believer that this country is stronger in. I
:10:23. > :10:28.do not want us to end up in the position of Norway, who pay 75% of
:10:29. > :10:34.their share, as if they were in, but have absolutely no say about
:10:35. > :10:39.negotiating. Here in Bradford, the effect would be catastrophic. The
:10:40. > :10:43.cloth and chemical industries so almost exclusively into European
:10:44. > :10:47.markets, and the moment we retract ourselves from the whole of that
:10:48. > :10:51.market, we have to have separate barriers, it becomes difficult for
:10:52. > :10:57.businesses to trade, life becomes much more complicated. For me, this
:10:58. > :11:02.local example would be replicated right across the country. We remain
:11:03. > :11:05.stronger in. It is better for us and prosperity. We need to be at the
:11:06. > :11:08.table to make our voice heard. The one thing I would agree with David
:11:09. > :11:13.Cameron on and where I would disagree with Euro-sceptics, is that
:11:14. > :11:16.before he went to Europe the Eurosceptics were saying he would
:11:17. > :11:21.not get anything at all. He has brought back things. I agree with
:11:22. > :11:27.Shabana that they are not important things, but by golly, he has got
:11:28. > :11:32.European nation states talking. That is what is going to have to happen.
:11:33. > :11:37.We face discussions and compromise. As far as I'm concerned, we need to
:11:38. > :11:39.make sure we keep going. It is important for business, prosperity,
:11:40. > :11:46.peace and security. APPLAUSE
:11:47. > :11:53.Let's hear from some members of our audience and then come back to the
:11:54. > :12:00.panel. I agree and disagree with some points. With Baroness Brinton,
:12:01. > :12:04.I agree the Tory party are split by the subject of the EU and whether we
:12:05. > :12:11.stay in. Going back to the lady in the audience earlier, Ukip are not
:12:12. > :12:15.split on this issue. They are the only political party who are
:12:16. > :12:21.actually embracing collaboration. Recently involving Nigel Farage, the
:12:22. > :12:24.out campaign has been launched, involving a cross-section of
:12:25. > :12:29.political parties, and as far is I can see the only political party in
:12:30. > :12:36.Westminster who are advocates of togetherness, partnership and
:12:37. > :12:42.collaboration. I am a Eurosceptic who is married to
:12:43. > :12:47.a Polish lady. I would like to know, particularly from Paul, in the event
:12:48. > :12:52.of us leaving the EU, what would happen to the EU people living in
:12:53. > :13:00.this country, both those in work and those who are currently on welfare?
:13:01. > :13:10.You mean Polish people? I mean all EU people. You, sir, in the yellow.
:13:11. > :13:15.There are some crazy European rules. For instance, somebody could come
:13:16. > :13:18.from Romania over here, a worker, and claim for their children who are
:13:19. > :13:22.still in remain near, where in remain near they get ?2 per week
:13:23. > :13:33.child benefit. Over here, they can claim ?20 per week. How on earth are
:13:34. > :13:39.the Department for Work and Pensions supposed to work out how much they
:13:40. > :13:46.will pay per person? We have heard four voices in favour of exit,
:13:47. > :13:53.leaving, what about remaining? Yes, in the middle. It seems to me that
:13:54. > :14:00.the hypocrisy of the Ukip MP is breathtaking. He says we are going
:14:01. > :14:04.to be better off outside Europe, and yet he has decided, in his own
:14:05. > :14:12.career, to be in Europe in order to influence the way that the EU works.
:14:13. > :14:15.Where is the sense in that? Well, SNP MPs go to Westminster and they
:14:16. > :14:23.want to leave, and no one has a problem with that. Let me just
:14:24. > :14:27.answer a couple of questions. The gentleman there, once we leave the
:14:28. > :14:32.EU people who are already here Wilmot be asked to leave. We have a
:14:33. > :14:36.heart. But the simple fact is that we do want to control our own
:14:37. > :14:40.borders, see an Australian points -based system which does not
:14:41. > :14:45.discriminate against an Indian doctor, or a Pakistani nurse, or
:14:46. > :14:48.someone from Australia. We want an equal playing field for everyone
:14:49. > :14:51.because at the moment we discriminate against those from
:14:52. > :14:56.outside the European Union and say that anyone can come from within
:14:57. > :15:02.that block of 28. We believe that is unfair. At the same time, we talk
:15:03. > :15:07.about peace in Europe. Peace was kept by Nato, not the European
:15:08. > :15:21.Union. You keep on adding points. I am trying to answer all the points.
:15:22. > :15:27.They are not all directed to you! I would like to answer the point About
:15:28. > :15:31.the child benefit. David Cameron said he wanted to end the practise
:15:32. > :15:36.of people claiming child benefit at home. He's come back with a
:15:37. > :15:43.half-baked proposal that they should get some collaborated level that is
:15:44. > :15:50.matching where they come from. Is that not what they are doing? It
:15:51. > :15:55.depends how high you set the bar. I think this is a shoddy sell out.
:15:56. > :15:58.APPLAUSE I really struggle to see how David
:15:59. > :16:03.Cameron can look people in the eye and say this is a good deal for
:16:04. > :16:08.Britain. The only way that he can do that is, if he's starting from the
:16:09. > :16:13.premise that we ought to remain in come what may and any little
:16:14. > :16:17.trifling concession is a massive bonus, and the reality is, that is
:16:18. > :16:21.actually David Cameron's position, he never intended to bring us out of
:16:22. > :16:25.the UK, he made those kind of noises but he didn't mean it.
:16:26. > :16:28.Amber Rudd, do you want to answer that? It's absolutely staggering
:16:29. > :16:33.that you think that a Prime Minister who goes around 27 different
:16:34. > :16:37.countries sets out four clear things to achieve, comes back with part of
:16:38. > :16:40.them, not all of them, describes it as a negotiation, has analyse what
:16:41. > :16:43.had it is about the UK voter population that they really don't
:16:44. > :16:53.like and has addressed those specific points. How does it help on
:16:54. > :16:57.borders for example? On sovereignty? It's about sovereignty and ever
:16:58. > :17:00.closer union. Ukip's consistently said everything about our EU
:17:01. > :17:04.agreements nothing will ever come back from closer union and
:17:05. > :17:10.specifically in this statement, from the EU this week, it's actually
:17:11. > :17:15.saying there'll be no more ever closer European Union. I vote in the
:17:16. > :17:19.European Parliament all the time, I vote against it, I watch your MPs
:17:20. > :17:25.vote in favour of it all the time. Can't you admit it's changed. I
:17:26. > :17:34.can't. I'm stunned from Paul's declaration that his party has a
:17:35. > :17:35.hearts. I find it... APPLAUSE
:17:36. > :17:39.Those words come pretty cheap. I would like it if his party could
:17:40. > :17:43.demonstrate that they have a heart by not blaming imgrants who're
:17:44. > :17:48.working in our country for all of our troubles and stop pursuing their
:17:49. > :17:52.divisive, destructive form of politics. Don't say it, demonstrate
:17:53. > :17:58.it. Thank you. And with respect to the lady who said that Ukip are not
:17:59. > :18:00.split, it's very true, Ukip are utterly united on their position in
:18:01. > :18:04.respect of the European Union but they'll not answer the question of
:18:05. > :18:10.what coming out of the European Union will actually mean because I
:18:11. > :18:15.promise you, if it means we have a deal like Norway where it's the
:18:16. > :18:18.tenth largest contributor to the EU budget even though they are not in
:18:19. > :18:21.thep the European Union, they have to implement three quarters of the
:18:22. > :18:25.legislation, all the rules in relation to the internal market and
:18:26. > :18:28.they are within the Schengen borderless zone so they have less
:18:29. > :18:32.control over their borders than we do. If it is a deal like that in
:18:33. > :18:36.order to get access to the single market, then I'm afraid that is a
:18:37. > :18:39.poor deal. I would rather be in the European Union, fighting for better
:18:40. > :18:44.rules for our country and making sure we get the best possible deal.
:18:45. > :18:49.I want to go to Dawn Thornton who asked the question? You have been
:18:50. > :18:53.listening to this, what do you think of what you have hard so far? I
:18:54. > :18:58.mean, I personally would like to stay in the EU. I just hope that
:18:59. > :19:02.when we start doing all the debates, that they butt the pros and cons in
:19:03. > :19:06.layman's terms sothat people can understand it because unless you
:19:07. > :19:10.have studied law or the EU, some people haven't got a clue what the
:19:11. > :19:15.pros and cons are. Listening to our panel...
:19:16. > :19:18.I'm still confused. APPLAUSE
:19:19. > :19:22.Listening to our panel, are they talking in clear layman's language
:19:23. > :19:26.for you about the EU? Yes, some of it they are, but then other stuff
:19:27. > :19:32.that you hear in the media or that you look up, you get more and more
:19:33. > :19:36.confused. So I'm waiting really for the debates to start of the going,
:19:37. > :19:42.staying in or coming out. Let's come back to the audience. I want it to
:19:43. > :19:46.be fair on this, to take it in turns for pro and anti, the question
:19:47. > :19:53.remember, has Cameron done enough to convince the nation to stay in
:19:54. > :19:58.Europe. Let's have a pro-Europe speaker first. Do you want to come
:19:59. > :20:02.in? Yes. Don't you think that, at a time when we have so many
:20:03. > :20:06.international crises abroad, it's so important to show a united Europe
:20:07. > :20:12.and surely all this talk of leaving the EU just shoes how divided we are
:20:13. > :20:21.and that's playing into the hands of people like Putin who want to see us
:20:22. > :20:25.as a weak European country. Can you answer this? The point of whether we
:20:26. > :20:30.should all be working together, I don't think we could be necessarily
:20:31. > :20:34.any less effective on our own as it were and it's not as if we are
:20:35. > :20:37.leaving NATO, we are still going to be working very hard to achieve
:20:38. > :20:40.everything we currently achieve within the union so I don't consider
:20:41. > :20:44.that a particularly powerful argument. On the issue of ever
:20:45. > :20:48.closer union which Amber you brought up and, you know, you acted as if it
:20:49. > :20:51.was a great triumph for David Cameron, I mean I don't know if
:20:52. > :20:55.anyone in the audience really ever thought that we were going to be
:20:56. > :20:59.part of ever closer union. It seems to me that this is a bit like David
:21:00. > :21:04.Cameron saying, my goodness, after a long, long, hard and tough
:21:05. > :21:08.negotiation, I can confirm that today is Thursday and tomorrow is
:21:09. > :21:16.going to be Friday. Nobody really thought we were going to be part of
:21:17. > :21:18.ever closer union. All right. APPLAUSE
:21:19. > :21:21.I completely disagree. If I could answer the lady's point, in terms of
:21:22. > :21:26.security I agree, working together is important, and I think that we
:21:27. > :21:30.are living in a dangerous world with Putin and Daesh and working together
:21:31. > :21:36.is better for the families, for the country, in terms of our prosperity.
:21:37. > :21:40.Should it only be done or can it only be done by membership of the E
:21:41. > :21:43.Snitch It's enhanced our security yes, but working together on the
:21:44. > :21:46.referendum and the terms that David Cameron's working on has shown
:21:47. > :21:51.actually EU members working very well together, wanting to deep the
:21:52. > :21:55.UK in and wanting a fair deal, one that helps the whole of the EU in
:21:56. > :21:59.terms of competitiveness. Can I knock this Norway thing in the head
:22:00. > :22:02.right now, we are not Norway, all right, we are Great Britain, we are
:22:03. > :22:07.the fifth largest economy in the world. We are Europe's biggest
:22:08. > :22:11.market place, OK. And the simple fact of the matter is, you don't
:22:12. > :22:16.have to be a member of the EU to have access to the single market.
:22:17. > :22:23.China did 300 billion euros worth of trade last year with the EU, the US
:22:24. > :22:27.did 250 billion worth of trade last year. They... You are missing the
:22:28. > :22:31.point. Without being in the European Union. They did that without being
:22:32. > :22:35.in the European Union. We can too. You are missing the point. The point
:22:36. > :22:44.about Norway is that it pays in and has to abide by the rules. Of course
:22:45. > :22:50.we are not identical to Norway. If we want to remove ourselves from the
:22:51. > :22:56.union, we have to play by the union's rules and contribute and
:22:57. > :23:05.that's the key problem that not many people... We have a bespoke European
:23:06. > :23:11.deal. We need us more than they need us. We took a speaker, you, in
:23:12. > :23:17.favour of remain, I would like to take somebody in favour of out and
:23:18. > :23:23.then somebody else. You with the beard and the spectacles?
:23:24. > :23:28.Volkswagen, all the rest of them, Skoda and the rest, Mercedes, are
:23:29. > :23:32.you telling me that they'll have to stick to the rules and not sell into
:23:33. > :23:36.this country. A great deal of the parts for all the cars and other
:23:37. > :23:41.industries come from this country, are you now telling me they'll no
:23:42. > :23:45.longer deal with us? Why do you want to leave, you obviously don't want
:23:46. > :23:50.to remain? I never wanted to be in in the first place, we were nefsh
:23:51. > :23:58.given the choice. We were only given the choice to remain within the
:23:59. > :24:03.Common Market. We went in already. We weren't given the choices to go
:24:04. > :24:08.in. My generation, a great deal of us, did not want tos be in. Did you
:24:09. > :24:12.vote in the first referendum? I did. You are old enough? Yes.
:24:13. > :24:15.LAUGHTER Harold Wilson in the document
:24:16. > :24:19.published said, and Wilson said, we are only at the start of our
:24:20. > :24:26.relationship with the European community, so when you say it was
:24:27. > :24:36.only a Common Market, he Didak chillily expect things to change. He
:24:37. > :24:42.didn't give any inkling. Did you vote no? Yes. Had a second chance in
:24:43. > :24:47.a lifetime? Yes and I will vote no again. The woman up there please on
:24:48. > :24:51.the right? I think it's really clear to understand what the alternatives
:24:52. > :24:54.are. The lady on the panel already alluded to this, we don't know what
:24:55. > :24:58.will happen if we do come out. We talk a lot about what happens when
:24:59. > :25:02.we are in the EU, but I'm on the fence, I don't know what the
:25:03. > :25:06.alternatives are and that's what we need to hear more of.
:25:07. > :25:12.APPLAUSE. And what are your worries, either
:25:13. > :25:16.way, about that? What do you fear? We have to abide by the rules, we
:25:17. > :25:22.wouldn't be able to make our own choices, I want to know for me as a
:25:23. > :25:27.citizen of the UK how we'd be affected if we weren't in the EU,
:25:28. > :25:31.there are no answers. It's unknown, we don't know how it will look for
:25:32. > :25:37.us so it's hard to make the choice. You in the third row? I would vote
:25:38. > :25:41.yes to stay in, firstly because you can see in the audience today the
:25:42. > :25:45.diversity and the benefits, particularly living in a city like
:25:46. > :25:51.Bradford, that being part of the European Union brings. That's the
:25:52. > :25:55.first point. The second point is, Ukip is scaremongering people and
:25:56. > :25:59.not providing the clear statistics and I totally agree with Shabana
:26:00. > :26:05.about the greater benefits being part of the European Union.
:26:06. > :26:07.OK. APPLAUSE
:26:08. > :26:11.I think we should move on. I said the debate begins here on Question
:26:12. > :26:15.Time tonight and it will go on week after week after week until we get
:26:16. > :26:21.this referendum. We still don't know when it will be. You wanted it the
:26:22. > :26:26.end of June yourself? If we get agreement, we'll have it at the end
:26:27. > :26:30.of June, we hope. We are not going to be rushed about timing, we ant
:26:31. > :26:38.the best deal we can for the UK -- we want. Next week, we are going to
:26:39. > :26:43.be in Llanelli in Wales. The following week, we are in
:26:44. > :26:46.Stratford-upon-Avon. There's the address to apply. I'll give it again
:26:47. > :26:51.at the end of the programme. Fatima Hussain, please?
:26:52. > :26:55.Why is the government only targeting Muslim women to learn English and
:26:56. > :27:03.not everyone else from every other country?
:27:04. > :27:08.APPLAUSE This refers to David Cameron's
:27:09. > :27:11.pledging ?20 million to teach English to women and saying if you
:27:12. > :27:16.don't improve your fluency that could affect your ability to stay in
:27:17. > :27:22.the UK. And we are in Bradford which has something like a quarter I think
:27:23. > :27:27.Asian origin in the population. Shabana Mahmood, what do you make of
:27:28. > :27:30.that idea of persuading or almost indeed inducing people to learn to
:27:31. > :27:34.speak English? Frankly the Prime Minister's case would have had more
:27:35. > :27:41.force if he was not the Prime Minister that presided over huge
:27:42. > :27:45.cuts to the English for speakers of other languages budget in the first
:27:46. > :27:51.place. He massively cut that budget and now he offers ?20 million and
:27:52. > :27:56.picks Muslim women as the big symbolic group to receive that
:27:57. > :28:00.money. I have to say, few things have angered and frankly upset me
:28:01. > :28:05.more than the article than the Prime Minister wrote in the Times
:28:06. > :28:10.newspaper linking a failure by first generation immigrant Muslim women to
:28:11. > :28:13.be able to speak English or speak English fluently with
:28:14. > :28:23.radicalisation. That was frankly disgraceful.
:28:24. > :28:29.It's not backed up by any evidence and if it was the case that it was
:28:30. > :28:33.leading to radicalisation, frankly Birmingham in the '50s would have
:28:34. > :28:38.been a hot bed of terrorism because so many first generation terrorists
:28:39. > :28:41.came in at that point. It was a ridiculous, dangerous argument
:28:42. > :28:45.because we have this avalanche of negativity coming from all sections
:28:46. > :28:49.around the British Muslim community and the Prime Minister, who is
:28:50. > :28:53.supposed to set the tone of the debate in our country, decides to
:28:54. > :28:58.make this spurious, unfounded link between English language which is
:28:59. > :29:01.incredibly important and which I really support. With that and
:29:02. > :29:08.radicalisation, it's frankly a nonsense and also deeply dangerous.
:29:09. > :29:13.APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? You support the
:29:14. > :29:18.targeting of this money to help the most vulnerable women in this
:29:19. > :29:20.situation? I want funding for English language for all groups
:29:21. > :29:24.because it's so fundamental that everybody in our country can speak
:29:25. > :29:27.English. Of course, in an environment where there's less
:29:28. > :29:33.money, it's about targeting the most vulnerable. If 22% of Muslim women
:29:34. > :29:35.have very poor or no English, incidentally compared 2010% of men,
:29:36. > :29:40.isn't it right to target the money that we have to help them? We can
:29:41. > :29:43.target to help them so that those women are better protected
:29:44. > :29:47.themselves so they can engage at schools with the doctors, they are
:29:48. > :29:52.just much more protected as individual women and it also means
:29:53. > :29:56.they can then play a role in society, get jobs, volunteer, help
:29:57. > :30:02.in society and the business of going to, like most MPs, I have people
:30:03. > :30:05.come to my surgery and sometimes the parents can't speak English, the
:30:06. > :30:10.women particularly can't, and the children help them translate so I
:30:11. > :30:13.think it's absolutely right to target the women that you have
:30:14. > :30:16.who're most vulnerable. And the women particularly in terms of
:30:17. > :30:19.helping people in society, I feel strongly about that. I want to
:30:20. > :30:25.interpose one point. In that article in the Times that you mentioned, the
:30:26. > :30:29.Prime Minister wrote: "If you don't improve your fluency, that could
:30:30. > :30:31.affect your ability to stay in the UK. " What does that mean, they kick
:30:32. > :30:42.people out? We have various pieces of
:30:43. > :30:47.legislation which are enforced. I am not entirely clear what that means.
:30:48. > :30:52.You describe it as an inducement. It is a serious approach to help the
:30:53. > :30:55.most vulnerable. Shabana, people like you should take it more
:30:56. > :31:00.seriously that these people are isolated. You say they are
:31:01. > :31:07.vulnerable and you are going to kick them out of the country. Why is it
:31:08. > :31:10.too much to ask for people who live here really long-term to be able to
:31:11. > :31:18.speaking this? APPLAUSE
:31:19. > :31:26.We are not talking about an obscure language, Swire Healey or something.
:31:27. > :31:29.If you are going to be part of our society, I believe you should be
:31:30. > :31:34.able to communicate and it is to your advantage to be able to
:31:35. > :31:39.communicate. I agree people should be able to speaking Laois and should
:31:40. > :31:44.be supported to do so. If the Prime Minister had not slashed that budget
:31:45. > :31:49.when he came into power, more people would be able to speak English
:31:50. > :31:52.today. He is now trying to ride in as the saviour of Muslims in but it
:31:53. > :32:02.was the link with the radicalisation which was his big a point which was
:32:03. > :32:06.absolutely unjustified. Not only did he cut that budget, but with the
:32:07. > :32:11.various cuts to local government, the number of local community groups
:32:12. > :32:18.that assist people like the Asian ladies, the Muslims in, we have lots
:32:19. > :32:22.of those and also lots of European people coming into this country.
:32:23. > :32:27.They have been badly affected by cuts to local government. I work in
:32:28. > :32:32.local government and I know how badly affected Bradford Council has
:32:33. > :32:40.been. It is ridiculous. Paul Nuttall, what do you make of what
:32:41. > :32:46.Shabana describes as the threat of radicalisation by mothers not
:32:47. > :32:52.speaking English? I don't think it helps. What do you mean, is it true
:32:53. > :32:57.or not? Well, look, if you live in this country, it is to your own
:32:58. > :33:02.benefit to speak the language and to be able to integrate. That is not
:33:03. > :33:08.the question. Address the question. The Prime Minister wrote "Think
:33:09. > :33:10.about the young boy growing up in Bradford, his mum can't speaking
:33:11. > :33:14.wish so he finds it hard to communicate with her. As a teenager
:33:15. > :33:19.he struggled to identify with Western culture. When that happens,
:33:20. > :33:24.the extremist narrative gives them something to believe in, however
:33:25. > :33:28.ridiculous". I think it increases the chances of people being
:33:29. > :33:34.indoctrinated by radicalisation. We need to put a halt to it. 22% of
:33:35. > :33:38.Muslim and do not speaking wish, or speak poor English. If you want to
:33:39. > :33:45.integrate and not be cut off from employment opportunities, cut out of
:33:46. > :33:49.the democratic process... I remember the old and by-election recently,
:33:50. > :33:52.and a Guardian journalist said it was depressing how many people in
:33:53. > :33:58.the Pakistani and Bangladeshi community did not speak English. It
:33:59. > :34:02.is the cost as well to society, the amount spent on translators in the
:34:03. > :34:07.NHS, the police, the public sector. If you want to be part of our
:34:08. > :34:10.society and reap the great benefits of living in Britain, then you
:34:11. > :34:10.should learn the language. Simple as that.
:34:11. > :34:22.APPLAUSE The point is not that we want people
:34:23. > :34:26.to speak English. I think we all agree we want people to be able to
:34:27. > :34:31.communicate. It is just that by targeting Muslim women, he is
:34:32. > :34:35.feeding on stereotypes, breeding hatred. He made a passing comment
:34:36. > :34:40.about Muslim women being traditionally submissive. Tell that
:34:41. > :34:45.to the thousands of women who work, who do amazing things in society. He
:34:46. > :34:51.is just belittling them. APPLAUSE
:34:52. > :34:58.If you were to swap the word target for support, would that make it
:34:59. > :35:02.easier to accept? If we said he wants to support Muslim ladies who
:35:03. > :35:05.can't speaking wish, rather than target them, I think that puts a
:35:06. > :35:09.completely different meaning on it. I think he is wanting to support
:35:10. > :35:15.them. It is not only the language but the culture. He is talking about
:35:16. > :35:19.children who grow up not being able to communicate with parents and
:35:20. > :35:23.grandparents. It is also a mixed culture, where sometimes in Asian
:35:24. > :35:28.communities, you have your elders who are living in an Asian
:35:29. > :35:38.community, and Asian mindset, not really understanding the youngsters
:35:39. > :35:43.who have grown up very Western. The question was really important. She
:35:44. > :35:47.asked, why is it only Muslim Women's Network targeted. There are plenty
:35:48. > :35:52.of other people in this country who arrive and do not have English, men
:35:53. > :36:03.and women. -- Muslim women who are targeted. It is wrong... It's
:36:04. > :36:07.important that everyone has the chance to learn the language. But
:36:08. > :36:12.the real problem with David Cameron's article was the link with
:36:13. > :36:17.radicalisation. And it was real dog whistle politics. And I think it was
:36:18. > :36:23.done utterly cynically, to try and attract some of the Ukip leaning
:36:24. > :36:29.voters who might be sympathetic with it. I say this in the context of a
:36:30. > :36:34.Ukip broadcast yesterday which, placed in front of a minaret in
:36:35. > :36:38.Turkey, was encouraging people to be very suspicious about people from
:36:39. > :36:41.Turkey. I have Turkish friends who were very distressed by what they
:36:42. > :36:45.saw last night and I believe it we go on with this sort of politics the
:36:46. > :36:49.referendum will start to become about parts of our community rather
:36:50. > :36:54.than the benefits of being in Europe. The strength of this country
:36:55. > :36:59.over the last 70 years has been our diverse communities working
:37:00. > :37:04.together, as you do in Bradford. I have certainly seen it in my own
:37:05. > :37:12.community in Watford. Paul Nuttall, explain what this was yesterday. The
:37:13. > :37:15.broadcast last night was focusing on the fact that David Cameron and
:37:16. > :37:20.other political parties in this country eventually want Turkey to
:37:21. > :37:25.join the European Union. Turkey is a country where only 3% of it falls
:37:26. > :37:30.into Europe, has lower living standards than any other country in
:37:31. > :37:33.the European Union. We heard before how you were saying the European
:37:34. > :37:38.Union brings security. You let Turkey in, it has borders with Iraq,
:37:39. > :37:43.Iran and Syria. Will that help security in this country? I think we
:37:44. > :37:48.have a valid point to say no to Turkey joining the European Union.
:37:49. > :37:55.Paul is starting to repeat the myths and errors of that broadcast last
:37:56. > :38:00.night. It is completely relevant. It was made to look like a documentary.
:38:01. > :38:03.It reached guidelines, because if you are copying the style of a
:38:04. > :38:07.programme, you are supposed to make it clear. You did not, and there
:38:08. > :38:16.were plenty of facts that were absolutely wrong as well. Did anyone
:38:17. > :38:19.see that last night? I thought it was very informative. I think you
:38:20. > :38:24.are missing the point that the Americans are increasing armoured
:38:25. > :38:28.vehicles in Europe by 100%, and feet on the ground in Europe, because of
:38:29. > :38:36.the threat of what is coming out of Russia and Eastern Europe. This is a
:38:37. > :38:41.bit of a smoke screen, to me. Amber Rudd, let's just come back to the
:38:42. > :38:48.point about Cameron using this point about language to talk about
:38:49. > :38:55.extremism, conflating the two ideas. Well, I do agree with the article
:38:56. > :38:58.when it says, as read out to me, that if the mother cannot speak to
:38:59. > :39:02.her child then it is going to be difficult for her to communicate the
:39:03. > :39:06.very strong British values that we have got. And I think we have to be
:39:07. > :39:12.careful about not pussyfooting around. With respect... British
:39:13. > :39:17.values are important and something we should not avoid. Sometimes the
:39:18. > :39:24.left is too much about saying we must not interfere with these
:39:25. > :39:33.cultural areas. I am sorry... There was a problem here, which is that
:39:34. > :39:38.Muslim would need language skills. -- Muslims in need language skills.
:39:39. > :39:42.You have repeated the fundamental mistake. If you look at people who
:39:43. > :39:46.have gone to Syria to get involved with IS, they are university
:39:47. > :39:46.graduates. Their mum has nothing to do with it.
:39:47. > :39:57.APPLAUSE The fact that they are university
:39:58. > :40:01.graduates is utterly terrifying. Instead of dealing with the scary
:40:02. > :40:05.fact in our midst, you have gone on to pick on Muslim Women's Network
:40:06. > :40:11.struggle with English. There is no link, you keep making it and it is
:40:12. > :40:18.really divisive and unfair. -- Muslim women who struggle with
:40:19. > :40:21.English. I am a lecturer here in Bradford and what upsets me about
:40:22. > :40:26.this narrative is the presumption that Asian women do not want to
:40:27. > :40:35.integrate. They absolutely do. There are huge waiting lists. Is that
:40:36. > :40:40.Asian women of all ages, over 65? Absolutely. We have loads of
:40:41. > :40:43.students from the younger section but also mothers and grandmothers
:40:44. > :40:50.who want to get out there and learn these skills. And the provision was
:40:51. > :40:54.taken away from them. Do you welcome the government proposal to spend 20
:40:55. > :41:00.million? Of course, and the women want it, too. But not targeted only
:41:01. > :41:08.at them because they are muslin women. Everybody should be supported
:41:09. > :41:18.to speak English, but targeting in this way was deeply wrong. A
:41:19. > :41:22.question from Richard Frost. Does politics need controversial
:41:23. > :41:30.characters like Donald Trump from time to time to revitalise interest
:41:31. > :41:32.from voters? What do you think? I think the danger is when those
:41:33. > :41:42.idiots get elected. APPLAUSE
:41:43. > :41:56.Paul Nuttall. Well... Maybe you should ask that next week. OK,
:41:57. > :42:02.Donald Trump. I think people like Donald Trump are the result of bland
:42:03. > :42:11.politicians, who never give a straight answer to a straight
:42:12. > :42:17.question, which is true. Come on. They avoid speaking what they
:42:18. > :42:20.consider to be the truth. Before, when we were talking about
:42:21. > :42:23.Conservative Cabinet member 's and politicians who want to leave the
:42:24. > :42:30.European Union but do not have the bottle to come out and put their
:42:31. > :42:36.country above their own political career. So -- who is going to be our
:42:37. > :42:40.Donald Trump in Europe? We have not got one at the moment but the rise
:42:41. > :42:44.of Donald Trump is the result of bland politicians in America. We
:42:45. > :42:47.might end up with a Donald Trump over here, but the problem is when
:42:48. > :42:52.people like Donald Trump get elected. Does it scare me if he
:42:53. > :42:57.becomes American president? It probably would. The journalist in me
:42:58. > :43:04.would always want, -- colourful politicians. I remember the Monster
:43:05. > :43:10.Raving Loony Party. Sadly that died out. I think there is a problem with
:43:11. > :43:14.politics being too grey, too boring, men in suits. Colourful characters
:43:15. > :43:20.like Trump, whether you agree with him or not, enliven a debate. He
:43:21. > :43:24.will spark a debate. You saw what happened when he came out with his
:43:25. > :43:28.crazy comments about not letting any Muslims into America. We have an
:43:29. > :43:34.extraordinary lively debate about that here in the UK. Yes, I would
:43:35. > :43:39.probably be a bit alarmed if he became president, but he says things
:43:40. > :43:43.others do not dare to. I was looking before coming on the programme today
:43:44. > :43:48.about what else he has said and I disagreed with most of it. But, for
:43:49. > :43:53.example, he says we should have Merry Christmas in American stores
:43:54. > :43:56.at Christmas time, rather than happy holidays. That is a great point and
:43:57. > :44:02.others will not come out with it. Good for him, I say. The politics
:44:03. > :44:10.around this table has not been grey tonight. Because there are lots of
:44:11. > :44:15.ladies. I think we need these controversial characters. The
:44:16. > :44:19.Conservatives always say it is Labour's fault. Labour always blame
:44:20. > :44:24.the Conservatives. We need these people to spice up politics and make
:44:25. > :44:32.it a bit more exciting, rather than just playing the blame game all the
:44:33. > :44:36.time, which is all you ever do. Donald Trump keeps repeating that he
:44:37. > :44:40.is not a politician and that is what makes him different. He is a
:44:41. > :44:49.politician, and you should never trust a politician who says he is
:44:50. > :44:54.not a politician. I am afraid I cannot be quite so excited about
:44:55. > :45:00.Donald Trump and talk about how he is in live in debate and making it
:45:01. > :45:05.all very interesting. Most of his rhetoric around Muslims is frankly
:45:06. > :45:09.terrifying. I am a practising British Muslim, so when I hear him,
:45:10. > :45:13.I don't think, this is an interesting debate and I'm excited
:45:14. > :45:17.to listen to it. I just think, that is scary and I hope nobody in our
:45:18. > :45:21.country things like that, because it would be bad for Britain's Muslims.
:45:22. > :45:29.I cannot take a bland approach, like others.
:45:30. > :45:34.Isabel, Donald Trump when he says some hateful speech, he's a
:45:35. > :45:39.colourful character and if the same speech was delivered by a Muslim
:45:40. > :45:45.cleric or someone like that, he'd be a terrorist. Amber Rudd?
:45:46. > :45:49.APPLAUSE You get these double standards. He's
:45:50. > :45:54.allowed to get away with things? Yes. I would like to dump the Trump,
:45:55. > :46:00.you know. APPLAUSE That is exact hi the sort
:46:01. > :46:08.of phrase he might think up, isn't it. He refers to himself always as
:46:09. > :46:11.the Donald or the Trump. So actually American politics at the moment is
:46:12. > :46:14.fascinating and there's quite a lot of interesting characters out there
:46:15. > :46:18.so I don't think he's going to continue to dominate the headlines,
:46:19. > :46:22.I certainly hope some of the others will get a fair shot soon. I want to
:46:23. > :46:26.hear from Bradford again. A question from Kerry Noble, please? Has the
:46:27. > :46:32.northern powerhouse run out of steam? Has the northern powerhouse,
:46:33. > :46:37.George Osborne's phrase, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, we need
:46:38. > :46:40.a new northern powerhouse, has this run out of steam, in other words how
:46:41. > :46:46.are things going on in Bradford. What do you think, by the way? I
:46:47. > :46:52.don't think it ever got started, never mind run out of steam. I see.
:46:53. > :46:57.APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? The point about the
:46:58. > :47:00.northern powerhouse was to make sure that the expansion in the economy,
:47:01. > :47:03.the new jobs, businesses, didn't just happen in the south-east or
:47:04. > :47:08.London and, George Osborne set out very specifically to make sure that
:47:09. > :47:11.the growth in the country did reach all parts and was particularly
:47:12. > :47:15.reaching the northern powerhouse. The bit that I was particularly
:47:16. > :47:25.pleased by and impressed by was the effort on road and rail and on rail
:47:26. > :47:29.we have seen... Electrification in rail, we have
:47:30. > :47:38.seen that, which is very expensive. Manchester and Liverpool.
:47:39. > :47:42.HECKLING... Are you feeling you're part of the
:47:43. > :47:48.northern powerhouse in Bradford? You in the checked shirt? Well, I come
:47:49. > :47:52.from Essex, for starters. Oh, great! My only comment is that we are
:47:53. > :47:57.talking about high-speed trains... You have come all the way from Essex
:47:58. > :48:01.to appear on Question Time? It's a long story, I won't go into it. We
:48:02. > :48:09.were talking about high speed trains, the only thing I can think
:48:10. > :48:12.of is national media museums and a large number of the artefacts are
:48:13. > :48:19.moving down to London, so... Yes. That is a local issue. 400,000
:48:20. > :48:22.photographic archive which has been here in Bradford for years, it was
:48:23. > :48:37.announced yesterday that it will go to the V A. Leaving that for the
:48:38. > :48:41.moment, what do you think Shabana? I was just wondering when Amber was
:48:42. > :48:44.saying how pleased she is with progress in relation to the northern
:48:45. > :48:48.powerhouse, whether she's equally pleased that one of the Sheffield
:48:49. > :48:52.offices for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has
:48:53. > :48:55.now shut down, its job was to deliver the powerhouse and the jobs
:48:56. > :49:07.have been shifted back to London. That doesn't seem like a northern
:49:08. > :49:10.powerhouse raging forward and delivering mean meaningful
:49:11. > :49:13.devolution. When you heard the intention announced, did you believe
:49:14. > :49:19.it or did you think it was purely a propaganda statement? I think it's
:49:20. > :49:23.entirely part of George Osborne's plan to try to get his way into
:49:24. > :49:26.Downing Street. But hang on, if he says he's going to have a northern
:49:27. > :49:30.powerhouse, everybody here in Bradford will expect to feel the
:49:31. > :49:35.effect of that and if they don't they'll blame him, you can't just do
:49:36. > :49:40.it by smoke and mirrors, can you? Well that, to be fair, is George
:49:41. > :49:44.Osborne's modus operandi when it comes to the economy more generally.
:49:45. > :49:48.I think that the northern powerhouse concept was important for him as
:49:49. > :49:52.part of his own political story, for his road to Number Ten, I think he
:49:53. > :49:56.wanted to show he cared about the north. He does. And the truth is
:49:57. > :50:00.that, if you really want to have proper devolution in our country
:50:01. > :50:03.where cities and regions can come together and go forward with their
:50:04. > :50:07.own story on economic competitiveness, you have to do that
:50:08. > :50:12.in a comprehensive way, not just the piecemeal approach. He's gone for
:50:13. > :50:18.the northern powerhouse, we may have a Midlands engine, it's too bitty
:50:19. > :50:20.and piecemeal. Sal Brinton? The infrastructure proposals are really
:50:21. > :50:24.important to the powerhouse because the point about it is that it joins
:50:25. > :50:27.up some of the centres of excellence in the north. The coalition
:50:28. > :50:30.Government agreed this would happen. The moment the Conservatives were
:50:31. > :50:34.back in power, they threw the infrastructure into the long grass.
:50:35. > :50:39.So one of the key building blocks that's going to make it happen has
:50:40. > :50:43.if not gone, certainly been delayed for a really long time. It's
:50:44. > :50:48.incredibly important that we capture what is going on well. Today in the
:50:49. > :50:51.local paper it's talking about a new super targeted cancer drug which was
:50:52. > :50:55.invented here in Bradford, it's moving on for development. For a
:50:56. > :50:59.northern powerhouse, we shouldn't just be talking about invention, but
:51:00. > :51:03.developing manufacturer here to create jobs, we should be talking
:51:04. > :51:06.about making sure the academic expertise that's doing that is
:51:07. > :51:12.plugged into the other universities, not just in the north but elsewhere
:51:13. > :51:15.as well. My problem is, with the Government saying it's removing its
:51:16. > :51:19.support in making the important links, it's just going to slowly
:51:20. > :51:25.fade away. You, Sir, in the second row? I live
:51:26. > :51:29.in Leeds just a few miles away and I think my concern, having lived in
:51:30. > :51:33.the city for about ten years, is that the economic growth and things
:51:34. > :51:37.that we see in the city appears unsustainable. It's very
:51:38. > :51:41.retail-based, very building-based. What I want to know is what are we
:51:42. > :51:45.going to do about bringing the greatness back to the north which is
:51:46. > :51:50.industry, which is, you know, developing local talent and keeping
:51:51. > :51:56.it local? Do you feel there is any sign of that happening? At the
:51:57. > :52:01.minute, like I say, from my perspective in Leeds, it's
:52:02. > :52:06.retail-based and if that's not sustainable in the current economic
:52:07. > :52:10.climate... I've no doubt the northern powerhouse was and is an
:52:11. > :52:14.economic aspiration. But it's also and in and was an electioneering
:52:15. > :52:19.device. I mean, the Tories in reality have long had a massive
:52:20. > :52:23.problem with their support base beyond London and the Home Counties.
:52:24. > :52:28.So the northern powerhouse was without doubt a device to boost
:52:29. > :52:31.support in those areas where the infrastructure projects were
:52:32. > :52:35.targeted. I think what we, as journalists have to do, is ensure
:52:36. > :52:38.that there isn't slippage of all those projects that were announced
:52:39. > :52:47.now that Cameron is home and dry with a little majority that he has.
:52:48. > :52:52.You, in the spectacles? I think the northern powerhouse is kind of
:52:53. > :52:57.summing up the Tory Government strategy of saying anything to your
:52:58. > :53:03.face and doing something completely different while you're not looking.
:53:04. > :53:07.It's a distraction tactic. They'll say anything and they'll contradict
:53:08. > :53:10.themselves tomorrow. David Cameron will talk about defending
:53:11. > :53:13.sovereignty while passing contentious legislation through back
:53:14. > :53:17.door committees, he's not defending sovereignty of Parliament at all,
:53:18. > :53:24.he's saying anything to your face. Are you a Bradford man? I'm from
:53:25. > :53:31.Sheffield. Do you sense any change in the last five years? No, it's not
:53:32. > :53:36.genuine. It's just buzz words and jingoism. And nothing is happening?
:53:37. > :53:40.That's not happening. It's simply not true. There is growth, the
:53:41. > :53:45.economy is growing, unemployment is falling, investment is rising, we
:53:46. > :53:48.have big projects going on. Unemployment is falling because of
:53:49. > :53:52.zero hour contracts and part-time work. People might have a job but it
:53:53. > :53:56.doesn't pay enough, it's not enough hours, you are talking about cutting
:53:57. > :54:08.in-work benefits as well which was promise nod to be cut. You talk
:54:09. > :54:14.about getting the votes, you say you will do it and it's not happening.
:54:15. > :54:18.I'm a model railway fan and I'm currently building a model wailway
:54:19. > :54:22.that contains a steelworks. It's now the only steelworks in the
:54:23. > :54:32.north-east that works! LAUGHTER
:54:33. > :54:35.APPLAUSE You will find yourself undercut by
:54:36. > :54:39.Chinese! The woman at the back then back to
:54:40. > :54:46.you, Paul? Cameron doesn't care about the north, that's why
:54:47. > :54:49.Sheffield steel is allowed to go to the wall and why bankers get to keep
:54:50. > :54:55.their jobs. Paul Nuttall? I'll be honest and
:54:56. > :54:58.I've said this on many occasions, I'm fed up with how London dominates
:54:59. > :55:02.the political and economical life of this country. The northern
:55:03. > :55:07.powerhouse is just a piece of political spin, never mind running
:55:08. > :55:11.out of steam. In London, they get around ?5,000 spent on them on
:55:12. > :55:16.infrastructure, in the north-east it's ?200, not much more here in
:55:17. > :55:21.Yorkshire, it's not good enough and I will throw this example out, they
:55:22. > :55:25.are arguing about a third runway for Heathrow or extending Gatwick, why
:55:26. > :55:31.don't we extend Leeds Bradford, bring the trade up here? !
:55:32. > :55:39.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
:55:40. > :55:42.You, Sir? You mentioned earlier on the panel
:55:43. > :55:46.that it was a political move, I totally agree with that, you also
:55:47. > :55:50.earlier asked is there any change in Bradford. I'm from Bradford and it's
:55:51. > :55:54.only recently after ten years we've got a shopping centre in Bradford,
:55:55. > :55:58.never mind the powerhouse, so I think there's got to be real
:55:59. > :56:02.investment brought to Bradford. The woman second row from the back, do
:56:03. > :56:07.you feel the northern powerhouse means something? Absolutely not. I'm
:56:08. > :56:11.in a strange position of agreeing with Isabel Oakeshott in that it was
:56:12. > :56:15.aer clearly a device to get votes in the north before the election, a
:56:16. > :56:18.cynical device so as soon as the election was over, actually we have
:56:19. > :56:21.seen absolutely nothing here. If anything you see the opposite, big
:56:22. > :56:24.austerity cuts to the county, cultural things moving to London,
:56:25. > :56:30.jobs moving to London from Sheffield. It's pretty much an
:56:31. > :56:35.insult to people here, they have to pull themselves up by the boots, we
:56:36. > :56:39.have a good heritage and good economic possibilities, and we have
:56:40. > :56:47.things taken away. APPLAUSE I would say perhaps to the
:56:48. > :56:51.local authority grants because we had to cut the deficit and we were
:56:52. > :56:55.elected on the basis of reducing the deficit and cuts. Nobody likes cuts
:56:56. > :57:02.but that has to happen. In terms of investment in other areas, we have
:57:03. > :57:06.been encouraging new manufacturing, we have new announcements, opening
:57:07. > :57:09.new offshore wind with increasing jobs, we have been investing in my
:57:10. > :57:14.sector to get nuclear going, in Sheffield we have a project on small
:57:15. > :57:18.modular reactors moving forward, so there are projects moving forward,
:57:19. > :57:23.particularly in the private sector which is exactly what the northern
:57:24. > :57:26.powerhouse is trying to deliver. Sal talked about infrastructure, we have
:57:27. > :57:31.set up the national infrastructure commission to look at long-term...
:57:32. > :57:41.Long grass, long grass. Dear, oh, dear. The idea is to make sure it's
:57:42. > :57:44.cross party and gets continued and doesn't have the cynical response.
:57:45. > :57:51.Invest in the north! OK. We have to stop. Our time is up
:57:52. > :58:05.here in Bradford. We are in Llanelli next week, in Wales, the comedian
:58:06. > :58:10.Romesh Ranganathan. To join the audience in Llanelli, or
:58:11. > :58:14.extraordinaried for upon Avon the week after, get if touch, the
:58:15. > :58:20.details are on the screen. Our debate continues on Question Time
:58:21. > :58:23.extra time. Thank you to the panel, the audience and Question Time,
:58:24. > :58:26.until next Thursday, good night.