:00:07. > :00:19.Tonight we are in Llanelli in west Wales and this is Question Time.
:00:20. > :00:26.As every week, a big welcome to you if you are watching on TV, listening
:00:27. > :00:31.on radio five, a big welcome to you in our audience and of course our
:00:32. > :00:35.panel. It might, the Conservative Secretary of State for Wales,
:00:36. > :00:42.Stephen Crabb. Labour's First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones. The
:00:43. > :00:49.lead of Ukip, Nigel Farage. The lead of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the
:00:50. > :01:01.medium, Romesh Ranganathan. -- and the comedian. Thanks very much. I am
:01:02. > :01:05.sure you don't need reminding but, if you want to get stuck into the
:01:06. > :01:11.debate, we have all sorts of ways you can do it, and Facebook,
:01:12. > :01:16.Twitter, you can follow us at BBC Question Time, you can text us
:01:17. > :01:20.comments if you prefer. If you push the red button, you will see other
:01:21. > :01:28.peoples comments and maybe yours along the bottom of the screen.
:01:29. > :01:35.Alice had first question. Who is wrong, 53,000 junior doctors or
:01:36. > :01:39.Jeremy Hunt? Nigel Farage. I think the object of the government was to
:01:40. > :01:42.address a problem and the problem was that more people were dying on
:01:43. > :01:48.Saturdays and Sundays. One of the reasons for that was the imposition
:01:49. > :01:51.of the working Time directive, which the NHS found very difficult to
:01:52. > :01:56.adjust to. The government's objectives in making sure that in
:01:57. > :01:59.England, and we are in Wales where the situation is different, but the
:02:00. > :02:04.government objective is to try to get the NHS is safe and brilliant as
:02:05. > :02:08.it is seven days a week is clearly the right one. However, whether they
:02:09. > :02:13.have gone about it the right way is another question. When I first heard
:02:14. > :02:17.about this, you think of 23-year-olds after their degree and
:02:18. > :02:22.I thought, OK, if they have to work hard and they are poorly paid for a
:02:23. > :02:26.couple of years, they don't quite quickly to well-paid jobs. Actually,
:02:27. > :02:31.a junior doctor is anybody below the level of a consultant, so somebody
:02:32. > :02:36.could be 45 with a family and facing such a drastic cut to their overtime
:02:37. > :02:39.pay that actually they wouldn't be very well paid at all. So the
:02:40. > :02:44.government is right to try and get seven days a week health care, but I
:02:45. > :02:52.think they have gone about it in an insensitive manner. Romesh
:02:53. > :02:55.Ranganathan. With regards to Jeremy Hunt, considering he is working with
:02:56. > :03:00.doctors, his bedside manner has been appalling.
:03:01. > :03:04.APPLAUSE I don't think there is any debate
:03:05. > :03:08.that the issues needed to be addressed, but the way he has
:03:09. > :03:13.handled this, if you are talking about doctors' morale, what he has
:03:14. > :03:17.done has been, I think, unacceptable. What has happened is
:03:18. > :03:22.offers have been made to junior doctors, they have rejected it and
:03:23. > :03:25.it has been enforced on them, and he has made comments that they need to
:03:26. > :03:29.think more carefully about going on strike. They haven't entered into
:03:30. > :03:34.those decisions lightly. Nobody is striking on a whim. It hasn't
:03:35. > :03:38.happened a long time. They have done it because they feel seriously about
:03:39. > :03:42.the situation, and the long-term effects on who is going to go into
:03:43. > :03:47.medicine will be felt by the fact it is involved in this contract. It is
:03:48. > :03:50.not right. We are now in a weird situation where doctors have a
:03:51. > :03:54.different contract in England to different countries in the UK. David
:03:55. > :03:58.Cameron made comments about the Welsh NHS and, ironically, we will
:03:59. > :04:02.probably have a few English doctors coming here to take up the better
:04:03. > :04:11.contracts. APPLAUSE
:04:12. > :04:13.Stephen Crabb. I think the government and the doctors want
:04:14. > :04:20.exactly the same thing out of the new contract. They want a contract
:04:21. > :04:25.which gives dignity to the junior doctors, who shoulder an enormous
:04:26. > :04:30.burden in delivering high quality care in the NHS seven days a week,
:04:31. > :04:34.but we need to try and extend the uniform excellence not just Monday
:04:35. > :04:40.to Friday but Saturdays and Sundays, to address the weekend effect. When
:04:41. > :04:44.the NHS was founded, Bevan had the concept of the universalisation of
:04:45. > :04:49.the best, so it shouldn't just be sporadic, it should be evenly spread
:04:50. > :04:53.across the NHS. In addressing the weekend effect, so that Saturday and
:04:54. > :04:58.Sunday, equally high care is being given as with Monday to Friday, that
:04:59. > :05:03.is the right thing to do. But the current contract, everybody agrees,
:05:04. > :05:08.is not fit for purpose. You see junior doctors working up to 91
:05:09. > :05:14.hours, continuously, during the week, leading to a lots of stress on
:05:15. > :05:17.junior doctors. There are good reasons for addressing the current
:05:18. > :05:20.contract. Just because the Welsh government isn't having this tussle
:05:21. > :05:24.at the moment with the junior doctors and the BMA trade union
:05:25. > :05:29.doesn't mean that the same issues won't have to be phased out on in
:05:30. > :05:32.future in Wales and Scotland. We have taken the decision as a
:05:33. > :05:37.government to address the seven-day issue to ensure we get better
:05:38. > :05:42.outcomes. Romesh Ranganathan said it hasn't been well handled by the
:05:43. > :05:46.Secretary of State. Has it been? If you look at the shifts the
:05:47. > :05:50.government had made in terms of concessions to doctors, and the
:05:51. > :05:54.contract that will be introduced now, 90% of that has already been
:05:55. > :05:58.agreed in negotiations, so there is a lot in the contract that junior
:05:59. > :06:02.doctors will welcome. The sticking point we got two was around estate
:06:03. > :06:08.away that improve the status of Saturday, would it be a normal
:06:09. > :06:11.working day or unsociable hours. If you are that close, why not get it
:06:12. > :06:17.to a point where the doctors are happy? There is something else going
:06:18. > :06:20.on. Having said what I said, where I think there has been some
:06:21. > :06:26.intransigence is on the part of the BMA. If you look at the history of
:06:27. > :06:30.the NHS, every reforming Secretary of State for Health, be it Labour or
:06:31. > :06:35.Conservative, going right back to the days of Bevan, at some point or
:06:36. > :06:42.other, they come up against the intransigence of the BMA. That is
:06:43. > :06:46.their history. When junior doctors are on strike, it is a sign of
:06:47. > :06:51.abject failure. APPLAUSE
:06:52. > :06:56.We haven't always agreed with the BMA. There have been times we have
:06:57. > :07:00.disagreed with each other, but there has never been a situation where
:07:01. > :07:04.doctors felt they had to go on strike, that they had to stand
:07:05. > :07:08.outside hospitals with placards saying save the NHS, and now there
:07:09. > :07:12.is talk of consultants doing the same. If you look at what has
:07:13. > :07:16.happened in Wales, we can see there fewer people in Wales stuck in
:07:17. > :07:20.hospital, waiting to go home, the opposite of England. We spend more
:07:21. > :07:25.on health per head in Wales. Waiting times are going up in England. ?3
:07:26. > :07:31.billion was a little weight on reorganisation in England, but not
:07:32. > :07:35.in Wales. -- was hosed away. We want people to have the right access to
:07:36. > :07:39.health services, which means making sure morale is high. Morale is
:07:40. > :07:42.dropping in England. I have no compunction in saying to junior
:07:43. > :07:51.doctors, come to Wales, you will be treated with respect. Because your
:07:52. > :07:58.cancer care provisions are so poor, you have got 50,000 Welsh patience
:07:59. > :08:11.who go to England. On every measure in the United Kingdom... Just wait,
:08:12. > :08:14.will you, please? If to what you speak at once, nobody here at home
:08:15. > :08:21.can hear a word of what you are saying. It is pointless. Take
:08:22. > :08:25.Nigel's intervention and then you can comment. 50,000 people from
:08:26. > :08:29.Wales went to England to get health care last year. I know you are
:08:30. > :08:36.embarrassed about it, and it is awkward for you, but the truth is...
:08:37. > :08:41.It is untrue. You won't listen because you have a lot to hide. On
:08:42. > :08:46.every measure of waiting times and health care provision, Wales is the
:08:47. > :08:53.failing part of the NHS in the UK. That is complete and utter nonsense.
:08:54. > :08:56.Briefly. We do better on cancer, they're not 50,000 people going to
:08:57. > :09:02.England for cancer care, you made that figure up. Unless you can tell
:09:03. > :09:06.us what it is wrong, you made up. You couldn't name a German
:09:07. > :09:14.Chancellor the other week. You make this up as you go along. It was 4%.
:09:15. > :09:20.You couldn't name the Chancellor. Let's leave this local dispute. The
:09:21. > :09:27.woman in spectacles, I will come to you in a moment. I want to address
:09:28. > :09:30.something to Nigel Farage. I received cancer care at Prince
:09:31. > :09:36.Philip hospital in Llanelli last year. The treatment was second to
:09:37. > :09:41.none. I had a referral from my GP to the unit that I was being treated at
:09:42. > :09:50.and I was seen within ten days. I am going back for a scan on Monday and
:09:51. > :09:54.I have actually heard now that statistics for referrals for urgent
:09:55. > :09:58.cancer care, these statistics which have just come out, those referral
:09:59. > :10:07.times are going down, which is something I think we should be
:10:08. > :10:12.celebrating here in Wales. Nigel, please, I want to bring us back to
:10:13. > :10:18.the original question, which is, who is wrong, 53,000 junior doctors or
:10:19. > :10:25.Jeremy Hunt? I agree with the junior doctors and I think Jeremy Hunt is
:10:26. > :10:33.wrong. Are you against a seven-day NHS? Doctors work seven days now.
:10:34. > :10:37.Saturdays and Sundays, equal outcome? When your guidance suggests
:10:38. > :10:42.they are being lazy at the weekend... That is the impression
:10:43. > :10:46.you were kidding. There protesters outside Welsh hospitals because of
:10:47. > :10:51.Labour's centralisation plans as well. While we need extra doctors in
:10:52. > :10:57.Wales, and this is an opportunity to get them, because in Wales we have
:10:58. > :11:00.fewer doctors per head of the population than all but three
:11:01. > :11:06.European Union countries, so we need to do a lot more in terms of
:11:07. > :11:11.planning for doctors, and Plaid Cymru's proposals for 1000 extra
:11:12. > :11:14.doctors in the Welsh NHS has been rubbished by the First Minister on
:11:15. > :11:17.the basis that he is pretty much in denial that we don't have enough
:11:18. > :11:22.staff in hospitals. The Royal college of medicine recently warned
:11:23. > :11:29.that Wales's A departments are on the edge due to increasing demand
:11:30. > :11:32.and staff shortages. I welcome the First Minister saying he has a plan
:11:33. > :11:37.to try and recruit extra doctors who have been on strike in England, and
:11:38. > :11:42.I'm glad he has come round to Plaid Cymru's way of thinking. Let's hear
:11:43. > :11:49.from the audience. Yes. On the doctors. I qualified in medicine in
:11:50. > :11:53.1976 and you are quite right to point out that there have been a
:11:54. > :11:58.number of difficulties with Secretary of States since that time
:11:59. > :12:03.over the last 40 years. None have got such a lack of respect as the
:12:04. > :12:11.current Secretary of State, Mr Hundt. -- Mr Hunt. He has at best
:12:12. > :12:15.been disingenuous because, as Mr Farage pointed out, there is
:12:16. > :12:21.increased mortality at weekends, but there is nothing that has been
:12:22. > :12:26.suggested or proven to show that that is related to any lack of
:12:27. > :12:30.junior doctors at that time. It is multifactorial. They work hard seven
:12:31. > :12:40.days a week and, by imposing this contract on them, that will, I hope,
:12:41. > :12:47.help the serious recruitment problem we have in Wales. We are focusing on
:12:48. > :12:52.doctors tonight but they will not be working on their own. What comes
:12:53. > :12:55.next for new contracts, nurses, cleaners, porters? It seems we are
:12:56. > :13:03.starting with the doctors, what happens next? ... What do you think?
:13:04. > :13:07.With regards to nurses' contracts, they will have to be looked at and
:13:08. > :13:10.everybody's will have to be looked at. We are talking about junior
:13:11. > :13:17.doctors now but this will go all the way down. The thin end of the wedge,
:13:18. > :13:21.in other words? It is true that there are other roles performed in
:13:22. > :13:25.hospitals. If we generally to move to this... Forgive me, but nobody is
:13:26. > :13:30.saying junior doctors are not working really hard at the weekend.
:13:31. > :13:34.Of course they are, shouldering a huge burden alongside nurses in
:13:35. > :13:38.keeping the NHS in business at the weekend, but it is about addressing
:13:39. > :13:41.what has become known as weekend effect to ensure an even quality of
:13:42. > :13:46.excellence from Monday all the way to Sunday, seven days a week. There
:13:47. > :13:50.will be other roles in the NHS that need to be looked at. The decision
:13:51. > :13:53.that needs to be taken by the Welsh and Scottish Government and the
:13:54. > :13:56.administration in Northern Ireland is whether they will embrace this
:13:57. > :14:01.challenge or run away from it because it is too difficult.
:14:02. > :14:04.Everybody would love a negotiated outcome. That is what we tried to
:14:05. > :14:06.get, but that wasn't possible, and so we are going to have to move
:14:07. > :14:17.ahead with this new contract. If you are not saying it is junior
:14:18. > :14:20.doctors who cause the weekend effect, why is it that in direct
:14:21. > :14:24.response to dealing with the weekend effect, you are changing the
:14:25. > :14:32.contracts for junior doctors? You are contradicting yourself. That is
:14:33. > :14:35.exactly what you have done. The existing contract prevents the
:14:36. > :14:40.changes to rostering that would be necessary to address the problem of
:14:41. > :14:46.the weekend effect. The point I also made earlier was that, pushing to
:14:47. > :14:50.decide the issue of the seven-day NHS, the current contract is not fit
:14:51. > :14:54.for purpose. The BMA have agreed that, junior doctors know it is not
:14:55. > :15:02.fit for purpose and leads to doctors being overworked, which puts patient
:15:03. > :15:05.service at risk. Going back to Leanne Acra's point, she made a
:15:06. > :15:11.point about the amount of nurses employed in Wales. Yesterday, we saw
:15:12. > :15:15.Kirsty Williams, the Welsh Lib Dem leader, her bill on more nurses was
:15:16. > :15:19.passed, which would require minimum staffing levels for nurses on NHS
:15:20. > :15:23.wards in Wales. Does that not show the failure of the Labour government
:15:24. > :15:29.in Wales in funding, giving us a good NHS? What is your view of this
:15:30. > :15:36.seven-day working thing, Carwyn Jones? I have not noticed my local
:15:37. > :15:40.hospital closing its doors on Friday and opening on Monday. We know
:15:41. > :15:43.hospitals work seven days a week. Stephen is saying that his
:15:44. > :15:47.government, the government he is a member of, negotiates with people,
:15:48. > :15:51.and if there is no agreement, they impose settlement anyway. That is
:15:52. > :15:54.not negotiation and that is not the way we will do things in Wales.
:15:55. > :16:00.Scotland and Northern Ireland will also take the same approach. We want
:16:01. > :16:04.to work with doctors, not impose terms on them. We can see the chaos
:16:05. > :16:08.being created in the NHS. We have more doctors in Wales than ever,
:16:09. > :16:13.more nurses than ever. That does not mean there are no challengers. We
:16:14. > :16:18.know for example in A demand goes up 7% every year, and meeting that
:16:19. > :16:25.can be difficult. But we spend more per head on health in Wales than in
:16:26. > :16:28.England. We have fewer doctors per head of population than warmest
:16:29. > :16:35.every country in the EU, except for three. I don't accept that at all,
:16:36. > :16:43.because we have more doctors than ever before. It is a fact. We have
:16:44. > :16:47.world leading centres, such as a burns unit in Swansea. They are
:16:48. > :16:51.world leaders. Of course we want to attract people to Wales who Ahmed
:16:52. > :16:55.qui qualified, but we will not do it on the basis of saying to our
:16:56. > :16:59.medical profession, you come into Wales, we will talk to you but we
:17:00. > :17:03.will never listen. Tell me how many countries in the EU have more
:17:04. > :17:11.doctors per head of population than Wales? Romania, Poland and Slovenia
:17:12. > :17:15.have fewer doctors per head of population than we do in Wales. You
:17:16. > :17:18.have just told me that is not the case. Stephen Crabb, you are
:17:19. > :17:24.Secretary of State for Wales. You know the facts and figures. Is she
:17:25. > :17:28.right or wrong? It might sound like I am ducking the question but health
:17:29. > :17:34.is fully devolved. I am not familiar with those statistics. You are
:17:35. > :17:37.Secretary of State for Wales, surely you follow what is going on here.
:17:38. > :17:43.APPLAUSE Carwyn Jones might not have the BMA
:17:44. > :17:47.knocking on his door having an argument about delivering health
:17:48. > :17:50.services, but hardly a month goes by without protests outside the
:17:51. > :17:56.assembly buildings by patients and families who are sick and tired of
:17:57. > :18:00.the reorganisation of A, maternity services, paediatrics. There are
:18:01. > :18:09.plenty of problems. A point from you, and then you. Is it not
:18:10. > :18:13.glaringly obvious that at the turn of the molinia made previous
:18:14. > :18:17.government car crashed GP services and as a consequence people are
:18:18. > :18:22.turning up in A, increasing the onus on the hospital service. And
:18:23. > :18:27.another factor that seems glaringly obvious, you
:18:28. > :18:29.another factor that seems glaringly paid a fortune. Why not put
:18:30. > :18:30.another factor that seems glaringly doctors into the salaries, thereby
:18:31. > :18:35.funding doctors into the salaries, thereby
:18:36. > :18:44.not the backwards way round? OK, and you, sir. Spreading the workforce
:18:45. > :18:48.more thinly is not the solution. The problem is recruitment and
:18:49. > :18:50.retention. We have a ?3.3 billion spent on low, and agency staff last
:18:51. > :18:58.year in the NHS, and that speaks volumes.
:18:59. > :19:02.Is it all the Conservatives want to do, balance the deaths throughout
:19:03. > :19:02.the week, instead of just on the weekend?
:19:03. > :19:19.APPLAUSE And on that happy note... I think we
:19:20. > :19:25.will go on another question. I should just say, if you want to come
:19:26. > :19:30.to Question Time, next week we will be in Stratford-upon-Avon, and the
:19:31. > :19:39.week after that in Poole in Dorset. You can apply on the website, or you
:19:40. > :19:46.can phone. Now, a question from Sally McDonald. We bailed out the
:19:47. > :19:46.bankers. Why not bail out our steel industry?
:19:47. > :20:02.APPLAUSE Leanne Wood, are you a baler? I
:20:03. > :20:06.think the steel industry is as important to Wales as the banking
:20:07. > :20:10.industry was to the whole of the UK. And I think both governments on both
:20:11. > :20:15.ends of the motorway should be doing everything possible to look at
:20:16. > :20:21.finding a solution to protect the jobs and industry. It is hugely
:20:22. > :20:28.important to Wales. 18,000 jobs are in the steel industry in this
:20:29. > :20:32.country. It is ?3.2 billion of value to our economy. Once those jobs are
:20:33. > :20:37.lost in manufacturing industry from the area of Wales that I come from,
:20:38. > :20:42.we lost the mining industry and we are still paying the price for that
:20:43. > :20:47.today. Plaid Cymru has put forward a proposal for the Welsh government to
:20:48. > :20:54.continue to consider taking a public stake in the steel industry, to get
:20:55. > :21:01.over what we hope is a temporary situation. And then we can make sure
:21:02. > :21:06.those jobs are secure. Do you mean nationalisation it for a bit?
:21:07. > :21:11.Nationalise it, not for long? However long it would need. What do
:21:12. > :21:16.you do with the steel that is produced, with Chinese steel being
:21:17. > :21:21.so cheap? There are infrastructure projects in the pipeline for Wales.
:21:22. > :21:26.We have an extension of the Mfor-macro that is planned. There
:21:27. > :21:33.are rail projects in the pipeline. All of these will acquire steel. It
:21:34. > :21:36.is inconceivable that the industry would be put at risk. Then we would
:21:37. > :21:43.have to buy steel from elsewhere when we have reproduced here with
:21:44. > :21:46.the jobs that are reliant upon it. What is happening with the steel
:21:47. > :21:51.industry in Wales is hugely concerning for workers and families.
:21:52. > :21:54.It is a time of stress and uncertainty. That is true for every
:21:55. > :21:59.country on earth where steel is being produced right now. There is a
:22:00. > :22:04.global storm that has turned global steel markets upside down. Leanne
:22:05. > :22:08.Wood is quite right, for Wales, steel is not just iconic Liam
:22:09. > :22:15.Porter, but economically important. Particularly here in south Wales.
:22:16. > :22:18.The idea of nationalisation sounds appealing on the surface if we
:22:19. > :22:21.really believed government had the answer, if there was a civil servant
:22:22. > :22:25.or a politician that had the answer to bring back profitability to the
:22:26. > :22:29.Welsh steel industry. The truth is there have been times when the steel
:22:30. > :22:35.industry has been nationalised and that has not stopped job cuts. So do
:22:36. > :22:40.nothing? That is not what is happening, and you know that. Sally
:22:41. > :22:45.up in the corner said, you bailed out the bankers, why not the steel
:22:46. > :22:49.industry? The bankers, you are gradually selling them back. They'll
:22:50. > :22:57.out the steel industry for the short term. The point is... Persuade her.
:22:58. > :23:01.Is taxpayers money being used to support steel industry and steel
:23:02. > :23:05.jobs elsewhere in the UK? Absolutely. The UK Government is
:23:06. > :23:08.spending tens of millions of your money to help relieve energy costs,
:23:09. > :23:13.to support the steel industry in different ways. Government is not
:23:14. > :23:17.going to bring back profitability to the steel industry and people in the
:23:18. > :23:21.industry know that. It is about working with the industry to help
:23:22. > :23:26.create a level playing field, to protect against the dumping of cheap
:23:27. > :23:31.Chinese steel, to help the steel industry modernise and return to
:23:32. > :23:34.profitability. That is the only way to get sustainable steel jobs in
:23:35. > :23:38.Wales. You cannot say you want to protect Welsh steel from Chinese
:23:39. > :23:43.dumping when at the same time there are people from your government
:23:44. > :23:49.trying to make sure that tariffs are not imposed on Chinese steel. The US
:23:50. > :24:01.imposes a 200 and sick stiff 5% import tariffs on Chinese steel to
:24:02. > :24:09.the United states. -- 264% import tariff on Chinese steel. You got a
:24:10. > :24:13.round of applause by saying something that is completely untrue.
:24:14. > :24:20.UK Government ministers have been in Europe arguing for tariffs on
:24:21. > :24:25.imported Chinese steel, tariffs on other steel products coming in. You
:24:26. > :24:30.are completely wrong. At the same time you are lobbying for Watt
:24:31. > :24:35.Carwyn Jones, what can the Welsh government do? First of all, our
:24:36. > :24:39.plans are not antiquated. They have had investment. Getting through this
:24:40. > :24:46.difficult time is the important thing. First of all, tariffs, Leanne
:24:47. > :24:50.Wood is correct, the Tories have opposed the imposition of tariffs at
:24:51. > :24:54.a European level. Nigel will tell you that it is a problem in London,
:24:55. > :24:58.not in Brussels. It means we should protect European steel. There are
:24:59. > :25:04.two other issues. First, the strength of the pound, exports are
:25:05. > :25:09.being hit because of it. And energy prices. The pound is falling on the
:25:10. > :25:14.exchanges. What are you talking about? Oh, dear! If you talk to
:25:15. > :25:20.people in the steel industry, you might learn something. Energy costs
:25:21. > :25:24.are far too high in the UK. Other countries have far more renewables
:25:25. > :25:28.than us but energy costs are lower. It is right to say that the UK
:25:29. > :25:33.Government has recognised that and said we will do something about it,
:25:34. > :25:37.but nothing has happened yet. That is the problem. We have put forward
:25:38. > :25:41.a package of 50 million to help the steel industry. On its own, that
:25:42. > :25:46.will not be enough. We need to make sure we get support from the UK
:25:47. > :25:51.Government, and we need progress on those infrastructure projects. It
:25:52. > :25:58.means HS2, electrification, we have no date for electrification to
:25:59. > :26:03.Swansea. All of these things can create a market for Welsh steel. And
:26:04. > :26:10.the government can insist on using British steel for that? You cannot
:26:11. > :26:13.be that blunt but you can specify through the procurement process that
:26:14. > :26:19.you use steel of a specific quality. That is how other countries do it.
:26:20. > :26:24.So you write the specification so that it can only be provided by
:26:25. > :26:30.Wales or the Northeast? Other countries do it, it is time we got
:26:31. > :26:35.smarter. As a steel worker facing redundancy, I would like to ask
:26:36. > :26:39.Steven, I felt completely betrayed this week when the government
:26:40. > :26:43.opposed the increase in tariff for cheap imported steel. I want to know
:26:44. > :26:47.when the government is going to start talking the talk and walk the
:26:48. > :26:49.walk and support British industry and British jobs.
:26:50. > :27:01.APPLAUSE The UK Government has voted for and
:27:02. > :27:05.supported and called for tariffs against cheap Chinese steel. The
:27:06. > :27:08.vote you are referring to was an effort by other countries in Europe
:27:09. > :27:14.which was blocked by a range of other countries in Europe, not just
:27:15. > :27:18.to address the underpricing and undercutting by Chinese steel but to
:27:19. > :27:21.put barriers above that which would have a negative impact on wider
:27:22. > :27:29.industry in the UK, destroying jobs in the wider economy. That
:27:30. > :27:33.industry in the UK, destroying jobs European countries. Once the British
:27:34. > :27:39.steel industry has gone, we have to buy it from overseas. What will
:27:40. > :27:45.happen when the economy picks up? The thing is, I have read the same
:27:46. > :27:48.things as you. I was disappointed as well because the government have
:27:49. > :27:52.been making noises about supporting British steel and it feels like what
:27:53. > :27:55.they are saying is a lie. What they are doing is in direct contradiction
:27:56. > :28:01.of that because they blocked the tariffs. The European Commission
:28:02. > :28:06.wanted to make British steel more competitive and it was blocked by
:28:07. > :28:09.us. What is going on? I take your argument that there are other
:28:10. > :28:14.industries that are dependent on that, but then you just have to
:28:15. > :28:15.admit. Don't say you are going to support British steel when you are
:28:16. > :28:18.not going to. support British steel when you are
:28:19. > :28:25.Sally, you asked the question, why APPLAUSE
:28:26. > :28:29.Sally, you asked the question, why is
:28:30. > :28:32.for supporting the steel industry? And the answer is, because it can't,
:28:33. > :28:37.because it is important. It has And the answer is, because it can't,
:28:38. > :28:38.given away the power. I worked And the answer is, because it can't,
:28:39. > :28:41.this industry for 20 years And the answer is, because it can't,
:28:42. > :28:43.getting into politics. That is the difference, I worked in
:28:44. > :28:49.getting into politics. That is the understand the subject. You thought
:28:50. > :28:51.the pound was going up when it is going through the floor, so give me
:28:52. > :29:03.a break, please! Will you listen to the facts?
:29:04. > :29:08.Sterling is... If you don't get it, goodness knows how Wales gets you as
:29:09. > :29:19.First Minister. I really do not know. Answer the question. You in
:29:20. > :29:23.the pink shirt. What we have heard from this panel tonight is pitiful,
:29:24. > :29:27.because none of the politicians on this platform have the courage to
:29:28. > :29:31.tell you that, because the Chinese have had a downturn in their economy
:29:32. > :29:35.and they are dumping hundreds of thousands of tonnes of steel at a
:29:36. > :29:42.loss, just to get some foreign exchange in, and what we should be
:29:43. > :29:45.saying is, this isn't fair play. Leanne Wood mention the Americans.
:29:46. > :29:51.America is a sovereign country. When it needs to, it looks after American
:29:52. > :29:54.workers and American industry. As members of the EU, we are impotent
:29:55. > :30:03.and we can't do it and we must vote to get out.
:30:04. > :30:08.APPLAUSE That is all well and good, but the
:30:09. > :30:13.tariffs this person is referring to came from the European Commission,
:30:14. > :30:20.not blocked by us. We are not allowed in this country to set
:30:21. > :30:24.tariff policy. We can vote, but we are a minority. We cannot set tariff
:30:25. > :30:29.policies and we are not in charge of the steel industry, the financial
:30:30. > :30:32.industry, the fishing industry. We have surrendered control of
:30:33. > :30:36.industry, the fishing industry. We nation and this referendum gives us
:30:37. > :30:39.a chance to take control of both industries. Let me take you back to
:30:40. > :30:46.the question, which was that we did bail out the banks, and Sally says,
:30:47. > :30:50.why not bail out the steel industry? The British government, do you
:30:51. > :30:56.believe it should find the money to nationalise part of the steel
:30:57. > :30:59.industry? I believe in helping. The reason we bailed out the banks was
:31:00. > :31:05.because that was agreed at European level. Funny how now those banks are
:31:06. > :31:10.the same people, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, who were chucking shed loads
:31:11. > :31:15.of money into the remaining campaign in the referendum. We should stop
:31:16. > :31:19.the dumping of Chinese steel onto the market at levels that are
:31:20. > :31:26.unacceptable and unfair. That is what we should do. You can quite
:31:27. > :31:30.easily help the steel industry would not having to nationalise it. The
:31:31. > :31:35.industry needs to stand on its own two feet, but take the boundaries of
:31:36. > :31:39.way. We have got expensive energy costs and tariffs. We have a
:31:40. > :31:42.fantastic opportunity and a natural resource in Wales to create energy
:31:43. > :31:47.through the use of a tidal lagoon that can create the resource for the
:31:48. > :31:53.steel industry on its doorstep in portal book. Why can't we think of
:31:54. > :31:57.the bigger picture instead of being narrow-minded? -- import Tolbert. We
:31:58. > :32:03.can subsidise but not necessarily nationalise. That is why I called
:32:04. > :32:10.for a temporary nationalisation so it can get to stand on its own to --
:32:11. > :32:15.two feet. In terms of the bigger picture, the point has been well
:32:16. > :32:21.made. We have talked a lot about tariffs and the position that this
:32:22. > :32:26.government has taken, but I think, in terms of Ukip voting record, they
:32:27. > :32:31.have the worst ever voting record across Europe. I know this is a
:32:32. > :32:36.fact, you actually voted to block lower energy prices. Quite frankly,
:32:37. > :32:40.all of this is very well related, and I think we have to look at the
:32:41. > :32:44.bigger picture, in terms of renewable energy. What are we
:32:45. > :32:49.prepared to subsidise and what are we not prepared to? At the moment,
:32:50. > :32:54.we are subsidising a one-horse race, nuclear. We have to look at the
:32:55. > :33:00.bigger picture. I have never voted for more extensive energy full stop
:33:01. > :33:03.-- expensive energy. Renewables, great in theory, but in practice
:33:04. > :33:09.they are costing hundreds of thousands of jobs in heavy
:33:10. > :33:15.manufacturing by causing expensive electricity across the UK, and that
:33:16. > :33:20.is a fact. Let's go back to Sally. What is your view? I can't
:33:21. > :33:24.understand why they can't increase the tariffs and lower the energy
:33:25. > :33:30.costs? Why can't we have lower energy costs was to mark the other
:33:31. > :33:40.European countries seem to. Briefly, why can't we? UK companies pay 9p
:33:41. > :33:46.per kilowatt. Is that right? We can and we are, so we are paying money,
:33:47. > :33:50.taxpayers money is going to be steel companies to compensate them for
:33:51. > :33:55.those additional energy costs that we are talking about. Why are the
:33:56. > :34:05.costs doubled and in the rest of Europe? Various reasons... George
:34:06. > :34:10.Osborne's carbon floor. Part of the reason for high energy bills is
:34:11. > :34:14.because we are asking energy bill payers, both business, industry,
:34:15. > :34:18.household, to subsidise renewables. That is generally a good thing, so
:34:19. > :34:23.long as renewable energy is productive and contributing to a
:34:24. > :34:27.healthy energy mix. Where it has its particular impact is with those
:34:28. > :34:34.industries which use massive quantities of that energy, and there
:34:35. > :34:38.is a case to help them. I am going to move onto another question. We
:34:39. > :34:46.will take one from Jennifer Roland, please. Would Brexit be a way of
:34:47. > :34:53.controlling immigration? That is Britain's exit from the European
:34:54. > :34:59.Union. Would it be a way of controlling immigration? What is
:35:00. > :35:02.your view? Are you in favour of Brexit to control immigration? I
:35:03. > :35:09.would like to hear the panel's opinions first. Be brave! All my
:35:10. > :35:14.working life I have worked for the NHS and I have seen the situation of
:35:15. > :35:19.the establishment involved totally from the day I started to the day I
:35:20. > :35:24.retired, and not always in a positive way. I have seen many
:35:25. > :35:29.immigrants or foreigners or whatever you want to call them come and
:35:30. > :35:33.contribute wonderfully to our society. They have brought
:35:34. > :35:40.specialisms. They have contributed without any question. But something
:35:41. > :35:47.has to be done, because our public services can't cope. And you think
:35:48. > :35:56.leaving the EU might be the way? : it might be. I'm yet to be persuaded
:35:57. > :36:02.conclusively. Well, my biggest issue with regards to this issue is the
:36:03. > :36:06.fact that all of the side in this argument seem to be using
:36:07. > :36:15.scaremongering with regards to immigration. Mr Farage said that we
:36:16. > :36:20.need to get control of our borders, because, if we don't, there will be
:36:21. > :36:23.an increase in terrorism. I think that is exactly the type of
:36:24. > :36:28.scaremongering that worries me, and those kind of sentiment I find
:36:29. > :36:32.frightening. You look at the terrorist atrocities that have
:36:33. > :36:36.happened in England, the 7/7 bombers, three or four of those were
:36:37. > :36:40.British-born. The people who murdered Lee Rigby, both were
:36:41. > :36:43.British-born. You are looking at a situation where people are
:36:44. > :36:47.cultivating a distrust of immigrants and immigration and ignoring what
:36:48. > :36:51.they have contributed to the UK in order to create a sense of fear so
:36:52. > :36:56.all of a sudden we don't want immigration to happen. David Cameron
:36:57. > :37:01.is guilty as well. I saw a speech where you were talking about the
:37:02. > :37:05.fear factor which shouldn't come into play, but David Cameron's
:37:06. > :37:11.unacceptable comments about this jungle moving from Calais to the
:37:12. > :37:16.south coast, should we go ahead with exiting Europe, is absolutely
:37:17. > :37:20.ridiculous. I want to hear proper economic arguments. I don't want,
:37:21. > :37:24.oh, Kent is going to look a bit dodgy! If that isn't scaremongering,
:37:25. > :37:29.I don't know what is. The fact is that it was such a good example of
:37:30. > :37:33.scaremongering that Ukip accused David Cameron of scaremongering, and
:37:34. > :37:42.that is their territory. APPLAUSE
:37:43. > :37:44.Nigel Farage. There are of arguments about the pros and cons of
:37:45. > :37:51.immigration. Jennifer talked about the NHS. Cancer specialist Angus
:37:52. > :37:57.Dalglish was saying this weekend that the reality is we have an NHS
:37:58. > :38:02.that is available to 508 million people. That is not the number using
:38:03. > :38:06.it, but it is available. You are right, whether we look at hospital
:38:07. > :38:11.or primary school places, our public services cannot cope with a British
:38:12. > :38:15.population that is rising by half a million people every year. But that
:38:16. > :38:19.was not the question, and the fact that two of the Paris bombers got in
:38:20. > :38:23.through the Greek Islands posing as refugees, important though that
:38:24. > :38:26.debate is, and I certainly wouldn't want to scaremongering over it, but
:38:27. > :38:30.I do think we should protect ourselves over those things if we
:38:31. > :38:36.can. But the key question, the keyword, is, is Brexit the only way
:38:37. > :38:41.we can control immigration? It is the only way we can, because the
:38:42. > :38:46.fact is we are locked into something where we have a complete open door
:38:47. > :38:50.to half a million people. Any one of those people can come to Britain.
:38:51. > :38:53.When we were in a political union with France and the Netherlands and
:38:54. > :38:59.Germany and countries that were roughly similar education standards,
:39:00. > :39:03.income standards, it wasn't a problem, but now we have let in
:39:04. > :39:07.countries that are very much poorer in eastern Europe and we see the
:39:08. > :39:11.miseries that the south are going through, with a Eurozone that is
:39:12. > :39:14.about to go back into crisis, we have realised it is irresponsible to
:39:15. > :39:19.have a total open door. We can't predict what public services we
:39:20. > :39:21.need, we have no idea within the nearest couple of million who will
:39:22. > :39:27.be here in the next couple of years. I am not against immigration but I'm
:39:28. > :39:33.for controlling immigration. I want us to exit political union, to have
:39:34. > :39:36.a trade agreement but, in terms of immigration policy, I want an
:39:37. > :39:37.Australian style points system, where people who come to Britain
:39:38. > :39:48.have skills for Britain. where people who come to Britain
:39:49. > :39:51.. Stephen Crabb, perhaps you would answer the accusation that the Prime
:39:52. > :39:57.Minister was scaremongering talking about what would happen if we left.
:39:58. > :40:02.Nigel tried to say that he is not against immigration. He is the man
:40:03. > :40:05.who said he feels uncomfortable hearing foreign accents on the
:40:06. > :40:14.train. He is a master of pressing the button of fear. Do you support
:40:15. > :40:18.uncontrolled immigration? Are you happy if large sections of our towns
:40:19. > :40:24.and cities are non-English speaking? Are you totally comfortable with
:40:25. > :40:28.that? I don't feel uncomfortable on commuter lines, as you described,
:40:29. > :40:34.hearing foreign accents being spoken. Said you are happy with an
:40:35. > :40:37.open door to half a million people? That is fine, that is your
:40:38. > :40:45.government policy! Lets have both views. We just heard a question
:40:46. > :40:48.about the steel industry. Nigel tries to reduce everything to a
:40:49. > :40:53.secret formula of Brexit. There is no question which can't be solved
:40:54. > :40:59.with this potion in a bottle marked Brexit. It is nonsense. The
:41:00. > :41:02.pressures of migration that Britain, Europe, North America, Australia are
:41:03. > :41:08.facing, they don't change. It won't change whether we are in or out of
:41:09. > :41:12.Europe. World is on the move. One of the biggest factors drawing people
:41:13. > :41:16.to this country is the fact that we have such a dynamic economy. We are
:41:17. > :41:20.creating new jobs at such a faster pace compared to other countries in
:41:21. > :41:24.Europe and the majority of people coming to this country want to come
:41:25. > :41:29.here to work. They are bringing skills, talents, their work ethic,
:41:30. > :41:34.and that boosts our economy. What we need to address, which is why we
:41:35. > :41:36.have gone down the road of renegotiation, is this artificial
:41:37. > :41:40.draw factor created by having a benefits system which draws extra
:41:41. > :41:45.people to the country because they can claim benefits from day one. We
:41:46. > :41:50.want people to come and work. Is that a boost for British workers?
:41:51. > :41:54.Because replacing them with foreign workers, or driving down the wages,
:41:55. > :41:57.it may be good for the multinationals or the type of people
:41:58. > :42:03.who find the Conservative Party, but is it good for British workers and
:42:04. > :42:11.families? I don't think so. The woman in black. Mr Farage wants to
:42:12. > :42:15.put the whole NHS crisis down to immigration. Please let me finish.
:42:16. > :42:20.You are either completely naive or very manipulative. The problem isn't
:42:21. > :42:23.immigrants. It is a factor, because there people come into the country,
:42:24. > :42:31.and that is how we are working, but it is an ageing population, people
:42:32. > :42:34.are surviving longer, surviving strokes and aneurysms more than
:42:35. > :42:37.before, and what you are doing is dangerous but you can't see it
:42:38. > :42:41.because you are so stuck in your rhetoric. Just because you have
:42:42. > :42:44.changed the way you speak and you are careful with your words, it
:42:45. > :42:50.doesn't mean your message is different to two years ago. I want
:42:51. > :42:59.to go to this woman. Your turn. Iron you pointed out -- you pointed out
:43:00. > :43:04.that two of the terrorists were British-born. That doesn't make you
:43:05. > :43:08.British. I am Australian and my allegiances lie with Australia, so
:43:09. > :43:12.that is one point. The immigration point of view is, too. If we need
:43:13. > :43:16.more immigration to do jobs, we encourage our people to do them. We
:43:17. > :43:24.train them. We bring up our children with a good work ethic, not that the
:43:25. > :43:26.government owes you a living. And, yes, immigration needs to be
:43:27. > :43:30.controlled and it needs to be controlled by a sovereign nation out
:43:31. > :43:39.of the EU. APPLAUSE We have heard a lot of
:43:40. > :43:42.arguments about Britain's leading Europe in terms of immigration, but
:43:43. > :43:47.we need to look at the effect it will have persistently on Wales.
:43:48. > :43:51.This building was made with EU funding and a lots of other places
:43:52. > :43:55.in Wales rely on that funding. How do you expect the Welsh assembly to
:43:56. > :43:58.run without that extra funding considering the government is
:43:59. > :44:01.cutting the Welsh assembly budget and I can't see them fully
:44:02. > :44:06.subsidising that funding if we were to leave?
:44:07. > :44:12.I am in no doubt that it is in the interests of Wales to remain as a
:44:13. > :44:16.member of the European Union, for many of the reasons you have
:44:17. > :44:20.outlined. But the question is specifically about immigration. I
:44:21. > :44:25.think we have to separate the types of immigration we are talking about.
:44:26. > :44:30.When we have free movement of people in Europe there are positives and
:44:31. > :44:33.negatives. There are 1.2 million people from Britain in other parts
:44:34. > :44:40.of the EU, so there is a balance to be struck. The other immigration,
:44:41. > :44:44.not related to membership of the EU, is the people coming from countries
:44:45. > :44:51.like Syria, who are escaping war and they have come as refugees. So we
:44:52. > :44:59.need to differentiate between the two groups. What are the negatives
:45:00. > :45:03.to EU immigration? The point about driving down wages for unskilled
:45:04. > :45:06.workers is a fair one, but I would say that would be dealt with by
:45:07. > :45:11.strengthening trade unions and making sure everyone has a living
:45:12. > :45:18.wage, not by pulling out of the European Union. But doesn't a higher
:45:19. > :45:22.wage and attract more people? One of the points is that the government is
:45:23. > :45:25.fiddling around with benefits. The camera and renegotiation is
:45:26. > :45:31.pathetic. Limit benefits for four years and then they will be the same
:45:32. > :45:34.as they are now. One of the government's flagship policies is to
:45:35. > :45:40.take the minimum wage and to turn it into a living wage. It is a very,
:45:41. > :45:45.very substantial increase. But that will drag in even more migrant
:45:46. > :45:51.Labour, so the numbers coming to Britain will go up, not down. My
:45:52. > :45:55.concern about this debate is the way in which the scaremongering takes
:45:56. > :46:01.place, and the way in which we are encouraged to divide and rule. While
:46:02. > :46:05.we are blaming immigrants, our eyes are not looking at those people who
:46:06. > :46:12.are very, very wealthy, avoiding tax. If they were paying the right
:46:13. > :46:23.tax, there would be enough resources for everyone. The woman with the
:46:24. > :46:30.Fox. Is it a fox? I understand the argument for leaving the EU was
:46:31. > :46:35.immigration, and I understand that it can be a bad thing. At the same
:46:36. > :46:40.time, I don't think I see why we seem to have a fear over immigrants.
:46:41. > :46:44.At the end of the day, we are all people, we are all human and we need
:46:45. > :46:47.to support each other, and I don't feel we should get out of the EU
:46:48. > :46:51.just because of the fact that they are coming into our country,
:46:52. > :46:56.stealing our jobs, getting our benefits. I am pretty sure the
:46:57. > :47:02.average immigrant in the street would not say they are here to steal
:47:03. > :47:10.your job, use the NHS, take benefits and so on.
:47:11. > :47:14.I agree totally. We are calling them immigrants, they are actually human
:47:15. > :47:18.beings like the rest of us. They are very desperate human beings, leaving
:47:19. > :47:24.everything they know, their homes. They have nothing with them,
:47:25. > :47:28.sometimes, no possessions. They are desperate. If we were in a situation
:47:29. > :47:32.of such desperation we would want someone to help us. You are not
:47:33. > :47:42.talking about wrecks it being a factor, you are talking about Syrian
:47:43. > :47:46.refugees. -- Brexit. They are separate. We are mixing immigration
:47:47. > :47:51.with exit in Europe. How can we make a decision about whether we stay in
:47:52. > :47:55.or leave Europe when we are given so little information about Europe? It
:47:56. > :47:59.has turned into a political game. Anywhere else in Europe, they have
:48:00. > :48:03.trips to the European Parliament, they go to see debates, things are
:48:04. > :48:09.televised on the news. Here, we hear nothing about ordinary debates in
:48:10. > :48:14.Europe and we are asked to suddenly make a decision. Carwyn Jones, do
:48:15. > :48:19.you agree? There is a lot of misinformation about Europe. Some of
:48:20. > :48:24.the media in London, some of the newspapers, they border on fantasy.
:48:25. > :48:26.But it is an important issue and it deserves to have an important
:48:27. > :48:32.debate. One of the things I regret is that the referendum will be six
:48:33. > :48:35.weeks after an election in Wales. We should have a proper debate without
:48:36. > :48:41.an election in the middle. The question is about immigration. Let
:48:42. > :48:45.me take some of the heat out of this. Every person in this room, and
:48:46. > :48:51.every person watching tonight is the descendant of an immigrant. It all
:48:52. > :48:55.depends when your family came. All of my family are Welsh, but I have
:48:56. > :49:01.blue eyes, which means at some point someone in my family lived near the
:49:02. > :49:06.Caspian Sea in Asia. Welsh has its roots in Sanskrit. Where do we draw
:49:07. > :49:10.the line? We have to bear that in mind. People are afraid of
:49:11. > :49:14.immigration, what it might mean for them and their jobs, and I
:49:15. > :49:19.understand that. It tugs at the heartstrings. We see people at the
:49:20. > :49:22.Borders, children who lost their lives, people who are coming and not
:49:23. > :49:27.doing it lightly, who have seen relatives killed. We also know we
:49:28. > :49:32.cannot accommodate everybody in Europe. The point is, this is a
:49:33. > :49:36.European issue that needs a European solution. To think the UK can bury
:49:37. > :49:40.its head in the sand and hope it goes away is not going to work. The
:49:41. > :49:46.other thing is that if you leave the EU controlling immigration,
:49:47. > :49:50.Switzerland is not a member of the EU and its immigration rate is more
:49:51. > :49:52.than double that of the EU. Secondly, if we leave the EU, we
:49:53. > :49:59.suddenly have a land border Secondly, if we leave the EU, we
:50:00. > :50:02.be policed. You Secondly, if we leave the EU, we
:50:03. > :50:09.immigration unless you have cooperation from at
:50:10. > :50:14.immigration unless you have Republic of Ireland. We have to
:50:15. > :50:17.think how Republic of Ireland. We have to
:50:18. > :50:22.European terms. For me, Republic of Ireland. We have to
:50:23. > :50:27.European solution, rather than what we see at the moment which is a lot
:50:28. > :50:31.of hot air, a lot of people having things thrown at them that are
:50:32. > :50:34.scaremongering. Let's act as human beings and be rational about helping
:50:35. > :50:39.other people, yes, but also understanding that the EU does not
:50:40. > :50:47.affect the level of immigration and Switzerland is an example. The woman
:50:48. > :50:52.in yellow. I wanted to pick up on the point that Brexit is just about
:50:53. > :51:00.immigration, that is a small part of it in my mind. I am not 100% that
:51:01. > :51:04.this was funded by EU money. It probably was. We don't need theatres
:51:05. > :51:09.and arts centres, we need investment in industry to create jobs in a
:51:10. > :51:15.deprived area, we need factories, not art galleries, ice rinks. If we
:51:16. > :51:18.came out of Europe, instead of spending millions of pounds paying
:51:19. > :51:25.into a project to flatter us with lovely theatres, could that money
:51:26. > :51:30.not be used to in carriage industry, global companies, to come and build
:51:31. > :51:37.factories in Wales? -- to encourage industry.
:51:38. > :51:40.Why is it only Nigel Farage who mentions controlled immigration?
:51:41. > :51:47.Quite, because that was the question. It has to be controlled.
:51:48. > :51:52.Quite, because that was the The answer is that it is the only
:51:53. > :51:57.way of controlling immigration, and the panel have danced around the
:51:58. > :51:59.issue and ignored the question. APPLAUSE
:52:00. > :52:07.I see it every week, we always go on about houses and the health service
:52:08. > :52:17.and schools being pushed, but it has to be controlled. The problem is,
:52:18. > :52:21.Nigel is right to talk about controlling immigration. Nobody has
:52:22. > :52:27.a problem with that. It is the nature of the debate I find
:52:28. > :52:31.distasteful. You get to a point where every symptom of your
:52:32. > :52:35.frustrations in everyday life are blamed on immigrants. You are in
:52:36. > :52:43.able shop and it is busy, we have let too many of them in, it is a
:52:44. > :52:46.nightmare! Actually, with the population having risen as much as
:52:47. > :52:53.ours, congestion is a very real problem. But the problem is not the
:52:54. > :52:54.problem of controlling immigration. That is not
:52:55. > :52:59.problem of controlling immigration. the way that debate is held
:53:00. > :53:01.engenders a distrust among our population.
:53:02. > :53:07.engenders a distrust among our Nigel is right to say that Brexit
:53:08. > :53:13.will control immigration, but it is just the way it is put that you do
:53:14. > :53:17.not like? I am not saying it is the only way to control immigration. But
:53:18. > :53:26.I do believe uncontrolled immigration is a bad thing. We have
:53:27. > :53:44.a few minutes and I want to take a question. Should MPs pay rise faster
:53:45. > :53:51.than nurses and teachers? Welsh assembly members are getting ?10,000
:53:52. > :54:00.wage rise this year, which I make 80%, up to 60 4000. Is that right?
:54:01. > :54:06.It is. Is it right? Ola No. It is not going to wash with people when
:54:07. > :54:11.you have an increase like that. At one time we used to vote on our own
:54:12. > :54:14.pay increase, so we created a system where an independent panel suggests
:54:15. > :54:20.what the pay increase should be. I don't think it works. What should
:54:21. > :54:25.you do about it? I would like to say, we have a system where our
:54:26. > :54:31.paying Greece is linked to teachers, nurses, doctors. We would not have a
:54:32. > :54:35.situation where we have nothing for three or four years. What are you
:54:36. > :54:42.going to do with the ten grand? APPLAUSE
:54:43. > :54:48.I will continue to give a substantial amount to charity. I
:54:49. > :55:01.always have done. I do not make a song and dance, but that is the
:55:02. > :55:05.answer. You mentioned it, though. I don't think people can accept the
:55:06. > :55:09.pay of politicians rising as fast as it has and I have said I will mop
:55:10. > :55:14.take the pay rise. I will not give it to charity, I will not take it,
:55:15. > :55:19.as I did not take the ?23,000 increase I was entitled to when I
:55:20. > :55:24.became leader of the party. Because in these times when people are
:55:25. > :55:28.facing cuts, when we are losing public services, libraries, when so
:55:29. > :55:34.many people are reliant on food banks, food banks in 2016, that is
:55:35. > :55:41.what people cannot accept, when politicians take huge pay increases.
:55:42. > :55:49.In the blue shirt. So, are any of you going to give it back? Well, she
:55:50. > :56:00.is not taking it. I am sorry. But you are all going to accept it? The
:56:01. > :56:04.problem with the pay of MPs now is that we took the correct decision to
:56:05. > :56:08.hand it to an independent body, to take MPs away from voting on their
:56:09. > :56:14.salary. It is an independent body to make the decision about salary and
:56:15. > :56:19.pensions for MPs. That removes any mechanism for an MP to say, I do not
:56:20. > :56:24.want that pay increase. There is not the mechanism in the way it is paid
:56:25. > :56:35.to say that. Leanne Wood said she refuses to take it. I have not
:56:36. > :56:41.flipped my home! Hang on, the First Minister of Wales says you get paid
:56:42. > :56:45.anyway. You cannot not be paid. After the next election, the money
:56:46. > :56:52.will be paid anyway. That is my understanding. I will not defend it.
:56:53. > :57:00.I am amazed that two assembly members do not know how they are
:57:01. > :57:08.paid! Well, I am paid in euros, as an MEP. So your pay is going up. As
:57:09. > :57:13.my foreign exchange trading expert on my right will explain, as the
:57:14. > :57:22.pound has fallen, my euro is in our buying more pounds. So my pay
:57:23. > :57:27.fluctuates. The question was, is it right. I think Parliament does not
:57:28. > :57:31.regulate the steel industry, does not regulate the banking industry,
:57:32. > :57:35.the fishing industry, I think we should cut the pay of MPs, unless we
:57:36. > :57:41.get Brexit, and then we should pay them more because they will be
:57:42. > :57:45.running the country. Let's be honest, they have to pretend to be
:57:46. > :57:45.awkward about it, but they are loving it.
:57:46. > :57:58.APPLAUSE Very briefly, in the fourth row. I
:57:59. > :58:01.think it is disgusting in a time of food banks and austerity that only
:58:02. > :58:07.one politician on the panel is willing to turn down the pay rise. I
:58:08. > :58:20.think everyone on the panel, apart from the comedian, should do. He is
:58:21. > :58:24.free, is the? -- is he? We have to stop. Our time is up and we can only
:58:25. > :58:29.do one hour. Someone was saying earlier that we should do two hours.
:58:30. > :58:38.That would be nice, but our time is up. We will be in
:58:39. > :58:46.Stratford-upon-Avon next week. The week after that we will be in Poole.
:58:47. > :58:54.If you would like to come to Stratford-upon-Avon, or to pool,
:58:55. > :58:58.applied to the website, or phone. If you are listening on radio, the
:58:59. > :59:02.debate continues until the early hours. Here, it comes to a halt.
:59:03. > :59:07.Thank you to our panel, to all of you who came to take part. From
:59:08. > :59:36.Llanelli, until next Thursday night, from Question Time, good night.
:59:37. > :59:41.For waking us up... CHRIS EVANS: Good morning, friends.