0:00:02 > 0:00:05Here we are in Stratford-upon-Avon, and this is Question Time.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15And a big welcome to our audience, to all of you watching or
0:00:15 > 0:00:19listening on the radio, and of course to our panel.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23Tonight, the Conservative International Development Secretary
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Justine Greening, Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary Lisa Nandy,
0:00:27 > 0:00:31the SNP MP and culture spokesman John Nicolson,
0:00:31 > 0:00:34the broadcaster June Sarpong,
0:00:34 > 0:00:39and the businessman and former star of Dragons' Den Theo Paphitis.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59As I always say, you can join in this debate from home.
0:00:59 > 0:01:04You can do it on Facebook, on Twitter - #bbcqt,
0:01:04 > 0:01:06you can follow us @BBCQuestionTime.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08You can text comments...
0:01:08 > 0:01:09All the details are on the screen.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13And push the red button and see what others are saying.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16But let's take our first question from Christopher Walsh, please.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Has David Cameron really done enough to persuade the British public
0:01:21 > 0:01:24that we should remain in the European Union?
0:01:24 > 0:01:28- This is assuming he gets everything he has been asking for, yes?- Yes.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30Yes. Theo Paphitis.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34If he wins all his points, has he done enough?
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Well, so far, what I've seen from both sides is Project Fear.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40From my perspective, I am not really sure where I am
0:01:40 > 0:01:44at the moment. I'm sort of reasonably well-read,
0:01:44 > 0:01:48I have unprecedented access to people in the know,
0:01:48 > 0:01:50I am in business
0:01:50 > 0:01:53and at the moment, I just have not got a Scooby-Doo which side
0:01:53 > 0:01:55to go on.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59Certainly, so far, it just seems - I hate to say this -
0:01:59 > 0:02:01but like a big pantomime.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13When will we be told facts?
0:02:13 > 0:02:15Not scaremongering that the world is flat
0:02:15 > 0:02:19and if we leave the EU we're going to fall off the edge, you know,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22which are the sort of things we are hearing.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27Or, in fact, Brexit is the best thing since sliced bread
0:02:27 > 0:02:30and we're going to be ever so rich if we leave tomorrow morning
0:02:30 > 0:02:33and it will be so much easier. The sun's going to come out
0:02:33 > 0:02:36and we will all be looking great and feeling happy.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39There's been no facts, just scaremongering from both sides.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42But you are a successful businessman,
0:02:42 > 0:02:44apart from your Dragons' Den life.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46- That wasn't that bad! - LAUGHTER
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Surely you have a considered view about in Europe or out,
0:02:50 > 0:02:51as a businessman?
0:02:51 > 0:02:57I have a view, but it is not a view that I am prepared, at the moment,
0:02:57 > 0:03:02to put a cross on the ballot box to say, "We are off,"
0:03:02 > 0:03:03or, "We are staying,"
0:03:03 > 0:03:06because there's just not enough facts coming out.
0:03:06 > 0:03:12As for this renegotiation, I don't know if it is just me but I am
0:03:12 > 0:03:16struggling to see why it makes any difference to why
0:03:16 > 0:03:18- we are in or we are out.- Right...
0:03:22 > 0:03:26So, Justine Greening, it's a pantomime,
0:03:26 > 0:03:29Theo says, what is going on in Brussels tonight and tomorrow.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32I don't think it is at all.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34I think the Prime Minister is trying to get the best possible
0:03:34 > 0:03:37deal for our country, which is what he should be doing.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40It's potentially a deal that can see us
0:03:40 > 0:03:43have a much better place within Europe.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46And indeed, what's interesting, some of the debate tonight
0:03:46 > 0:03:49is going to be from other countries, leaders around the table
0:03:49 > 0:03:50who want some of the things that
0:03:50 > 0:03:53Cameron is managing to negotiate for Britain.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55But at the end of the day, I think
0:03:55 > 0:03:58it is going to be about what is in Britain's interests -
0:03:58 > 0:04:01how do we want to stay influential in Europe,
0:04:01 > 0:04:03what is the right future for us?
0:04:03 > 0:04:05And it's going to be up to everybody in this room,
0:04:05 > 0:04:08the whole of the British people, to have their say.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12As you say, I don't think we have really got into the debate yet,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15but it has to be about what we want as well as what people don't want.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18And you are right to say we must make sure it is not simply
0:04:18 > 0:04:21some kind of Project Fear, where both sides set out the risks.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24I think there is no black-and-white solution.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27There's going to be pros and cons whichever side people go,
0:04:27 > 0:04:29whichever way our country goes.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32But the bottom line is we are all going to have to make our own
0:04:32 > 0:04:34minds up, and hopefully this time tomorrow
0:04:34 > 0:04:37we might have a clear idea what
0:04:37 > 0:04:39Britain's deal is that the Prime Minister has managed to get.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43The question that Christopher Walsh asked was, even if
0:04:43 > 0:04:48he got all the things he is saying he wants to get, would that
0:04:48 > 0:04:53be enough to persuade you, for instance, to remain in the EU?
0:04:53 > 0:04:56I've said I think it's the basis for a good deal
0:04:56 > 0:04:59and if we can get it I would prefer it if we could stay in.
0:04:59 > 0:05:00I think, in the end,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03for me, it is about interest and influence -
0:05:03 > 0:05:04interest in terms of jobs
0:05:04 > 0:05:08and influence in the sense that the discussions and decisions
0:05:08 > 0:05:11that happen at EU level do impact us whether we like it or not,
0:05:11 > 0:05:15and I would prefer to stay around that table being able to
0:05:15 > 0:05:18- have our say and stand up for our country.- OK.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24It will be really interesting to hear what you all have to say.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26I'll just take one more member of the panel
0:05:26 > 0:05:30and then we will come back. Let's hear Lisa Nandy's view of this.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33I think he will come back with some kind of deal.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35I don't think it will do enough to convince
0:05:35 > 0:05:37the Euro-sceptics in his own party,
0:05:37 > 0:05:39I don't think anything could do that.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42But my concern is that it won't do enough to convince
0:05:42 > 0:05:46people in the country who are particularly concerned about jobs.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49The Europe that they need to see is the Europe that has delivered
0:05:49 > 0:05:54us many of those workplace rights, a Europe where our Prime Minister is
0:05:54 > 0:05:59pushing to make sure that employers can't undercut wages using
0:05:59 > 0:06:01cheap labour,
0:06:01 > 0:06:04a Europe where we work together, collaboratively, to stop
0:06:04 > 0:06:09companies like Google playing us off against one another and avoiding
0:06:09 > 0:06:11paying their fair share of taxes,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14and a Europe in the end where we work
0:06:14 > 0:06:16together in our shared interests to
0:06:16 > 0:06:18tackle the big challenges that we face.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20Because whether it's climate change
0:06:20 > 0:06:25or mass movement of refugees or international terrorism,
0:06:25 > 0:06:30these are all things that demand more cooperation from us, not less.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33What about the things being negotiated, which Theo
0:06:33 > 0:06:36described as pantomime? Do you think it's pantomime, what we're seeing?
0:06:36 > 0:06:41I would describe it as tinkering, when we need a Prime Minister who
0:06:41 > 0:06:45is going to fight for a Europe that works for people
0:06:45 > 0:06:47and not a Europe that works for big business.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49Jeremy Corbyn, that would be?
0:06:49 > 0:06:52That's the Europe that would stand up for Britain's interests
0:06:52 > 0:06:54and give us influence in the coming centuries.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56And that's Jeremy Corbyn?
0:06:56 > 0:07:00That is exactly what Jeremy Corbyn was arguing for in Brussels today.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02OK. You, sir, at the back, in the blue shirt.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05I think we should have a Prime Minister
0:07:05 > 0:07:07that fights for the UK, not Europe.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11Do you think David Cameron is fighting for the UK?
0:07:11 > 0:07:13I don't know.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16I'm sitting on the fence with Theo. We just don't know.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19You... The lady here in the front.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22What makes anybody think it's going to be any different?
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Our country's infrastructure cannot cope with any more mass migration.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29If Turkey joined the EU, no matter what David Cameron gets us now,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32it's not going to be enough.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34- So will you vote out?- Out. Definitely out.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37You're a definite out. June Sarpong, what are you?
0:07:37 > 0:07:40Well, I am definitely in, I am part of the campaign to try
0:07:40 > 0:07:42and keep us in.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45I come at this from a different perspective, I am not a politician
0:07:45 > 0:07:47and I don't run a big business, like Theo.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50- It's not all that bad! - I wish I did, but I don't.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53But...I care about the future
0:07:53 > 0:07:55and I don't want to live in the past.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57And I think Britain is stronger in Europe for three reasons.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00The first reason is economically - we will be poorer
0:08:00 > 0:08:02if we leave Europe. We will,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05because three million British jobs are linked
0:08:05 > 0:08:06to those we trade with in the EU.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10- APPLAUSE AND DISSENT - Yes, they are! Yes, they are.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13So therefore if we leave, we could be putting those jobs at risk.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17- That's not Project Fear, that's Project Truth.- Can you justify that?
0:08:17 > 0:08:20- Yes.- Come on, I'm listening.- Yes... - I'm here to be convinced.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23Those are government statistics, not mine.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25- No, they're not... - I didn't make them up.- They're not.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27I'm here to be convinced.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30- Who has come up with three million job losses?- The government.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32- They haven't.- They didn't say three million job losses,
0:08:32 > 0:08:35they've said that three million jobs are linked to our trade
0:08:35 > 0:08:36with other EU countries.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39And five million jobs are linked...
0:08:39 > 0:08:44Five million jobs in the EU are linked directly with the UK economy.
0:08:45 > 0:08:46APPLAUSE
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Fact.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51- And where did you get that statistic from?- Where does that get you?
0:08:51 > 0:08:53Where does that come from?
0:08:53 > 0:08:55No, where does that get you?
0:08:55 > 0:08:57Basically, we need each other.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00It is not a case of if we leave, they're going to...
0:09:00 > 0:09:03They're going to flood the Channel Tunnel and say,
0:09:03 > 0:09:05"You can't deal with us any more."
0:09:05 > 0:09:09- They need us more than we need them. - No, they don't.
0:09:09 > 0:09:14Why would we want to leave a leadership position
0:09:14 > 0:09:18in the biggest trading bloc in the world? Why would we do that?
0:09:18 > 0:09:21Why would we want to limit the chances for our younger generation?
0:09:21 > 0:09:22The biggest trading bloc in the world?
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Have you seen the decline of the EU GDP figures?
0:09:25 > 0:09:30Still 50% of our foreign direct investment comes from Europe, Theo.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32You've got to realise...
0:09:32 > 0:09:34You are a businessman, Theo...
0:09:34 > 0:09:37- A very good businessman... - And I know the true figures.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40The fact remains, the EU is the only trading bloc that is declining
0:09:40 > 0:09:43while the rest of the world is actually growing.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46But while it still accounts
0:09:46 > 0:09:51for half of our trading, it makes sense for us to stay there.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55- John Nicolson.- I feel a bit rude interrupting.- Sorry, John!
0:09:55 > 0:09:58Look, we should be clear about what we are getting
0:09:58 > 0:10:01and what we are not getting. We are not getting a treaty change.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05So anything the Prime Minister comes back with can be
0:10:05 > 0:10:10rejected by the European Parliament, so we can go into this referendum
0:10:10 > 0:10:13and vote on something which the European Parliament can then reject.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15It is important to recognise that.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19Can the Council of Ministers not override the European Parliament?
0:10:19 > 0:10:22- Possibly.- More likely than not, I think.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24But still, we are voting for something
0:10:24 > 0:10:27which could then change subsequently.
0:10:27 > 0:10:31We are also voting for something that could be
0:10:31 > 0:10:34overturned in the European courts.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37There could, for example, be a challenge.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41So it's all very vague, and the reason it is very vague is because,
0:10:41 > 0:10:43I agree, it is a pantomime.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46It is about internal Conservative Party politics
0:10:46 > 0:10:50rather than really changing Europe.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52But nevertheless, you will vote on it.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56I will vote, I will vote and I will vote to stay,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59because I think we are getting terribly
0:10:59 > 0:11:04absorbed in a lot of the minutiae of this rather than the big picture.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06Last week, I was in Berlin,
0:11:06 > 0:11:11and I think what Parliament really misses is the statesmen.
0:11:11 > 0:11:16It's the elder statesmen, it's the Ted Heaths, Denis Healeys,
0:11:16 > 0:11:18it's the Jacques Chiracs, people who
0:11:18 > 0:11:23have a memory of war and remember what this whole project was about.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27It was about peace in Europe, the iron and steel community,
0:11:27 > 0:11:30growing peace in Europe and stability
0:11:30 > 0:11:32between these warring factions.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35And what's been achieved in Europe is an extraordinary thing.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38And can I just make one point, David?
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Which is about something, if you remember, called subsidiarity.
0:11:42 > 0:11:43Do you remember that word?
0:11:43 > 0:11:47Because the Prime Minister says he is in Brussels at the moment
0:11:47 > 0:11:50and one of the things he is trying to stop is Britain being
0:11:50 > 0:11:53sucked deeper into European integration.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55John Major tried to do that,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58and he tried to do that in a way which has hoisted the Tories
0:11:58 > 0:12:02with their own Europe petard, because he broadened Europe.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05He was keen for Romania to come in, and Bulgaria...
0:12:05 > 0:12:08And what was the inevitable consequence of that?
0:12:08 > 0:12:10A huge amount of immigration.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13And you're not in favour of those countries being in the EU?
0:12:13 > 0:12:15I am in favour of those countries...
0:12:15 > 0:12:17Why do you criticise him for allowing it?
0:12:17 > 0:12:20Because he's so clearly not achieved what he set out to achieve.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22I'm completely consistent...
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Turkey would like to be a member as well. From your point of view...?
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Turkey's...more complicated.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31I'm not sure about Turkey.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34I wouldn't necessarily reject Turkey coming in,
0:12:34 > 0:12:38but when you think of what the European Union did in giving
0:12:38 > 0:12:40hope to the ex-communist countries,
0:12:40 > 0:12:43integrating the ex-fascist countries,
0:12:43 > 0:12:45it's been an extraordinary success.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48OK, let's go back to the question about Cameron...
0:12:48 > 0:12:50and the negotiations and
0:12:50 > 0:12:52whether the negotiations, which were described
0:12:52 > 0:12:55at the beginning as a pantomime, whether they are enough to
0:12:55 > 0:12:57persuade people. You, sir.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59Yes, it is all smoke and mirrors
0:12:59 > 0:13:02and he has no chance of delivering anything.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04It's jam tomorrow.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07We have to get control back of our borders.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10As far as the comment you made about business,
0:13:10 > 0:13:14the trade deficit with Europe - our deficit is 88 billion.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17Do you think Europe will stop doing business with us?
0:13:17 > 0:13:20And you, sir, let's have a wide range of views from an
0:13:20 > 0:13:22audience of mixed opinion, yes...
0:13:22 > 0:13:25With regards to the question of is David Cameron going to get
0:13:25 > 0:13:29a deal, absolutely he will, but will it be in Britain's best interest?
0:13:29 > 0:13:31Probably not.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34It will be another David Cameron manifesto
0:13:34 > 0:13:36full of "no ifs, no buts", promises that he will not
0:13:36 > 0:13:38deliver on.
0:13:38 > 0:13:40- Are you voting yes or no? - Absolutely no.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42Regardless of what he does?
0:13:42 > 0:13:45- Absolutely.- OK. Anybody want to vote yes, regardless of what happens?
0:13:45 > 0:13:47You, sir, in the pink there.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50Isn't the bottom line here sovereignty
0:13:50 > 0:13:53and the UK being in control of its own destiny?
0:13:53 > 0:13:55- JUNE:- And currency as well.
0:13:56 > 0:14:02The man there in the turquoise shirt, the short-sleeved shirt on...
0:14:02 > 0:14:03If that identifies you.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06The Prime Minister gave an interview today where he said
0:14:06 > 0:14:09he was battling for Britain.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13By the weekend, we might find out that he's buckled for Britain.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16Yes, you, sir, in the middle there.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19Just to take the gentleman on the left there - his point...
0:14:19 > 0:14:23He said that Europe was established to stop war.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28It wasn't. It was established as a European free-trade association.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30And that's what we voted for!
0:14:30 > 0:14:36If I may, you said you were in Berlin.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40I think people in Berlin, at least their leader, needs reminding,
0:14:40 > 0:14:44when she keeps telling this about preventing war,
0:14:44 > 0:14:47their country started the last two wars.
0:14:47 > 0:14:48DISQUIET
0:14:48 > 0:14:49Lisa Nandy.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51I would just say to the gentleman there,
0:14:51 > 0:14:53I really do disagree with you.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56The EU was established to make war not only unthinkable
0:14:56 > 0:14:58but materially impossible.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01I think that on that basis it has been a success.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03It hasn't done that, we've had...
0:15:03 > 0:15:05I wanted to take on this point that a number of people have
0:15:05 > 0:15:07mentioned about sovereignty.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11It's absolutely right to recognise that we need more democratic control
0:15:11 > 0:15:13within the EU.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16But surely nobody would think, in today's world, that we
0:15:16 > 0:15:20will have more control over the major issues that affect us,
0:15:20 > 0:15:23like trade and jobs, like climate change,
0:15:23 > 0:15:27like international terrorism, by turning our back on the EU?
0:15:27 > 0:15:28We need more cooperation
0:15:28 > 0:15:30and need to be right at the heart of Europe
0:15:30 > 0:15:33so that we make sure that Britain is shaping
0:15:33 > 0:15:36the nature of that cooperation and not being dragged into it...
0:15:36 > 0:15:39- They don't listen to us... - ..on someone else's terms.
0:15:39 > 0:15:40Justine Greening.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Firstly, the Prime Minister has been very clear
0:15:46 > 0:15:49he wants to get a good deal, but if he can't get one today,
0:15:49 > 0:15:51tonight, he won't accept a deal
0:15:51 > 0:15:53that is not good enough for our country.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56The second thing is, we do need to look at what Europe needs to
0:15:56 > 0:15:59be for the future, rather than just looking at the past.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02There is no doubt that in my area in international development
0:16:02 > 0:16:05we have done huge amounts of work in Syria, but we have seen
0:16:05 > 0:16:08the impact of that much closer to home here in Europe,
0:16:08 > 0:16:10and it makes sense for us
0:16:10 > 0:16:13to try and work in partnership with other countries in Europe on that.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16But the bottom line is this - we have had Question Times over
0:16:16 > 0:16:19the years, we have had debates over the years.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22What is different now is you are all going to get,
0:16:22 > 0:16:25we're all going to get to have our say, for the first time ever.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28So whether or not you think the PM's going to get
0:16:28 > 0:16:31a good deal, whether or not you think he is,
0:16:31 > 0:16:34the bottom line is we get to decide as a country,
0:16:34 > 0:16:36and surely that is something we should be able to agree on?
0:16:36 > 0:16:39It's a massive step forward and it is the right thing that
0:16:39 > 0:16:40after all these years
0:16:40 > 0:16:43people here in our country get to have their say.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46OK. Just before we go on...
0:16:46 > 0:16:50We heard a number of voices on the out side.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53I want to hear from people who would like to remain.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Just a couple of people who would... You, sir, yes.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Britain is not a beggar, you know.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03The Prime Minister should stick on his points
0:17:03 > 0:17:08and whatever he wants - he can have that from the European Union.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11So he should stick, for the Britain,
0:17:11 > 0:17:16for Westminster, to make it safe for our children in future.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19OK. And you, sir... On the right. Yes.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22I think... A lot of attacks have been made against David Cameron
0:17:22 > 0:17:24but in my lifetime it's the first
0:17:24 > 0:17:26time I have seen a British Prime Minister
0:17:26 > 0:17:29stand up to Europe and challenge them on their principles.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32We can argue whether these are long-term changes
0:17:32 > 0:17:35but the process of negotiation has begun and I am voting in
0:17:35 > 0:17:39because I believe that once this first change is made,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42hopefully other European leaders will be brave enough to stand up
0:17:42 > 0:17:44and make more reforms in Europe.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49And you on the gangway there.
0:17:49 > 0:17:54Lisa Nandy is right, how can we ever be able to trade with the EU
0:17:54 > 0:17:56if we can't be part of it
0:17:56 > 0:18:01and we can't be the big player which affects it from the middle?
0:18:01 > 0:18:05Why would we want to go out and lose that power?
0:18:05 > 0:18:10Is that regardless of what Cameron comes back from Brussels with?
0:18:10 > 0:18:13- Yeah, because...- It doesn't affect you one way or the other?
0:18:13 > 0:18:17It does affect it, but if we go out of Europe we won't have that say.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19If you had just had a referendum...
0:18:19 > 0:18:20Cameron just saying,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24"We'll have a referendum without any renegotiation.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26"Just want to know, cos we haven't asked you since 1975..."
0:18:26 > 0:18:29Well, you weren't born in 1975... LAUGHTER
0:18:29 > 0:18:32"We haven't asked you, we are just going to ask you again,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35"without any attempt at changing anything."
0:18:35 > 0:18:37- Would you have still voted in? - Yeah.- Yeah. OK.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41We will have more of this as the weeks pass, I've no doubt,
0:18:41 > 0:18:43but let's just take this as a coda to it,
0:18:43 > 0:18:47from Andy Chilton, please. Slightly off-beam and quickly, I think. Yes.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50Was actress Emma Thompson's description of Britain
0:18:50 > 0:18:53as a "cake-filled, misery-laden, grey old island"
0:18:53 > 0:18:55a fair reflection of
0:18:55 > 0:18:59our country or just another example of metropolitan elitist snobbery?
0:18:59 > 0:19:01LAUGHTER
0:19:06 > 0:19:09She said she felt European even though she lived in Great Britain.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12"I'm living in Europe. Of course I am, as it were...
0:19:12 > 0:19:15"A tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe."
0:19:15 > 0:19:20- Erm, is that how you see Europe, June?- No.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22- I mean Britain.- No, not at all,
0:19:22 > 0:19:25I see Britain as a fantastic Victoria sponge.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30I have to say, the one thing that I am slightly anti-EU on,
0:19:30 > 0:19:33being a pro-EU campaigner,
0:19:33 > 0:19:37is I see far too many French tarts in our bakeries!
0:19:37 > 0:19:40- SHE LAUGHS - Or Tatins!
0:19:40 > 0:19:44So rather than Emma's description, I would say I think we are a fantastic
0:19:44 > 0:19:47Victoria sponge and I completely disagree with her on that one.
0:19:47 > 0:19:48OK. Theo.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53I don't actually recognise that description of the United Kingdom.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55We've got our problems.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58We have got our down sides, we've got the odd bit of rain,
0:19:58 > 0:20:01- but at the end of the day... - "Misery-laden, grey"?
0:20:01 > 0:20:03No, I think she's been in LA for too long.
0:20:03 > 0:20:04That's her problem.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07All right. Lisa?
0:20:07 > 0:20:10We have our fair share of rain in the Northwest, I can tell you that.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13But I don't recognise that description of Britain.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16I much prefer the celebration of Britain that we saw
0:20:16 > 0:20:19Danny Boyle put on during the Olympics opening ceremony -
0:20:19 > 0:20:23a Britain that has worked over the centuries to strive,
0:20:23 > 0:20:26to work together and stick up for people
0:20:26 > 0:20:29and to defend values of social justice around the world.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31That's why I want to see us stay in the EU,
0:20:31 > 0:20:34cos I want to see us not just have global influence
0:20:34 > 0:20:37in past centuries but in the coming centuries as well.
0:20:37 > 0:20:38OK.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44Poor old Emma Thompson, anyone want to come to her defence?
0:20:44 > 0:20:46- No.- Nobody.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47LAUGHTER
0:20:47 > 0:20:51- I want to.- As a Scot... - I want to come to her defence.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54Her politics isn't great, that said.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58I notice that she said she had lived in Great Britain and Scotland.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00- Er... - LAUGHTER
0:21:00 > 0:21:05Maybe she knows something about the next referendum that I don't!
0:21:05 > 0:21:08Look, one of the problems, I think, for people like Emma is that
0:21:08 > 0:21:12she's in the public eye. And she sometimes says things,
0:21:12 > 0:21:15and then you have all these very po-faced journalists,
0:21:15 > 0:21:19of which I used to be one, who then listen to what she says,
0:21:19 > 0:21:21make it into a big banner headline
0:21:21 > 0:21:23and blow it up out of all proportion.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25I suspect she probably regrets saying it.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Is it the worst thing she could say?
0:21:28 > 0:21:31I doubt it. She seems very English to me. Proud of being English.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34I wish she would lead a campaign...
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Actually, since we are talking about cake names -
0:21:37 > 0:21:40to revert from "cupcakes" to good old-fashioned "fairy cakes".
0:21:40 > 0:21:42- Oh, yeah!- OK.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45- What is wrong with a fairy? - What is wrong with a fairy cake?
0:21:45 > 0:21:47This is getting wildly out of hand!
0:21:47 > 0:21:50Justine Greening, you are International Development Secretary,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53you go around the world and hear people talking about Great Britain.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Do they think about Great Britain that it's a "tiny little
0:21:56 > 0:21:58"cloud-bolted rainy corner of sort-of Europe"?
0:21:58 > 0:22:01I think they all know it rains in Britain quite a lot.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04But in the end, I think most people recognise that it's a unique
0:22:04 > 0:22:06country with an amazing history.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09We do some of the best comedy in the world
0:22:09 > 0:22:12and we should be really proud of that.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15I don't know - maybe Emma was having a bad day.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17But I'm sure that...
0:22:17 > 0:22:20We are quite proud of Emma Thompson, aren't we?
0:22:20 > 0:22:22- JUNE:- We are.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24I'm sure she loves our country as much as the rest of us do.
0:22:24 > 0:22:25At least, I hope so.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28We wouldn't have nothing to talk about, would we, if she
0:22:28 > 0:22:30- didn't say something. - Or if it didn't rain.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32We would, we've got have masses to talk about...
0:22:32 > 0:22:35When it comes to her comments, if it wasn't for Britain,
0:22:35 > 0:22:37would she be in the position she is now?
0:22:37 > 0:22:40The hint is in the name, isn't it? GREAT Britain.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43OK. Now, look... We had better get on.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46Just before we go to the next question,
0:22:46 > 0:22:49a reminder about where we will be. Next week it's Poole,
0:22:49 > 0:22:51and the week after that it's Liverpool.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54Funny verbal twist there. All the pools!
0:22:54 > 0:22:58We made a list of pools - Welshpool, Hartlepool, Ullapool,
0:22:58 > 0:23:00Blackpool, Pontypool, you can...
0:23:00 > 0:23:03Anyway, it's Poole and Liverpool.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05The website says how to get to us.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07I'll give that at the end again.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09David Haugh, please.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11Do you agree with the Pope that
0:23:11 > 0:23:14Donald Trump is not a Christian?
0:23:14 > 0:23:16Let's deal with this one.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19The Pope said today on his aeroplane
0:23:19 > 0:23:21on his way back from Mexico
0:23:21 > 0:23:25that a person who thinks only about building walls, referring to
0:23:25 > 0:23:29the wall between Mexico and the United States, is not a Christian.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33And Trump replied, the Pope would only wish and pray that
0:23:33 > 0:23:38Donald Trump HAD been President if the Vatican was attacked by Isis.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40I don't know... John Nicolson?
0:23:41 > 0:23:47Um, who knows what is in Donald Trump's dark soul?
0:23:47 > 0:23:48LAUGHTER
0:23:48 > 0:23:51I don't think it's for me to say whether he's a Christian or
0:23:51 > 0:23:53whether he's not a Christian.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57He certainly doesn't seem to abide by some of the basic tenets
0:23:57 > 0:24:00of Christianity, as I understand them - love thy neighbour
0:24:00 > 0:24:04being one, for example, the Good Samaritan being another.
0:24:04 > 0:24:09Doesn't seem to be too engaged with that. He's a dreadful man.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11And...
0:24:11 > 0:24:13The good thing is...
0:24:13 > 0:24:16If he gets the nomination he will get absolutely
0:24:16 > 0:24:19whipped in the general election because the problem with the
0:24:19 > 0:24:23Republicans these days is in order to win the Republican nomination
0:24:23 > 0:24:27you've got to go so far to the right that it makes it almost impossible
0:24:27 > 0:24:32for you to steer back to the centre and to win a general election.
0:24:32 > 0:24:36That's why, when we look at American politics, the Democrats just
0:24:36 > 0:24:42keep winning because America is no longer a white, male country.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46If you go out of your way to alienate Muslims and Mexicans
0:24:46 > 0:24:51and gays and every other conceivable minority, you cannot bring
0:24:51 > 0:24:54together the coalition necessary to win an election.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58And I'm so looking forward to the night of the election
0:24:58 > 0:25:02- and watching the smirk wiped off his face.- Mm.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14It's a bit of a tricky one for you because you welcomed him,
0:25:14 > 0:25:17Alex Salmond welcomed Trump to Scotland build an enormous
0:25:17 > 0:25:21golf course on a nature reserve
0:25:21 > 0:25:25and now you want to ban him from coming to Scotland.
0:25:25 > 0:25:26No, I don't want to ban him.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29I mean, there is an argument that the Home Secretary should be
0:25:29 > 0:25:33consistent with the people that she declines to let into the country.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36But I know you like this question, David,
0:25:36 > 0:25:38because you have asked it before.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40But of course, it's very important to remember
0:25:40 > 0:25:41that the person that first...
0:25:41 > 0:25:43What question have I asked before?
0:25:43 > 0:25:46The question about Donald Trump being welcomed by the SNP.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48It was in fact the Labour Party that made him
0:25:48 > 0:25:50a trade ambassador for Scotland.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53I just think it's worth putting that on the record.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57Alex Salmond, I heard him saying he was wrong to have supported him.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59But the party that made him a trade ambassador was the Labour Party.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01But look... He's a businessman.
0:26:01 > 0:26:03Once upon a time he worked in business
0:26:03 > 0:26:04and he provided jobs for people.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06And of course, in Scotland we want jobs.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10- But I certainly don't support him as a politician.- Theo Paphitis.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14I'm just staggered that they are even treating him seriously,
0:26:14 > 0:26:16to be honest with you.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19I've been watching the hustings on television
0:26:19 > 0:26:21and some of the things that he has been saying,
0:26:21 > 0:26:23you just wonder, you just wonder
0:26:23 > 0:26:27what he has to say for people to say, "Stop!
0:26:27 > 0:26:29"This man has got to go!"
0:26:29 > 0:26:33because he keeps pushing the boundary every single time.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36And you just think, he's going to push it...
0:26:36 > 0:26:40I just actually believe it's a publicity stunt and he's hoping at
0:26:40 > 0:26:43some stage he can get off the wagon and go back to doing
0:26:43 > 0:26:44what he's doing.
0:26:44 > 0:26:49It seems the American people just keep encouraging him. It's amazing.
0:26:49 > 0:26:51Justine Greening?
0:26:51 > 0:26:56I suspect that ironically this is exactly what Donald Trump loves.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58- More publicity.- Yeah.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01And he then gets to say something outrageous on the back of it.
0:27:01 > 0:27:06The serious point is that he is in this seemingly leading
0:27:06 > 0:27:08position in the Republican race.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11And I think, as much as we might think some of the things
0:27:11 > 0:27:14he says are funny, a bit of a joke, actually,
0:27:14 > 0:27:18the American election for president is no joke.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22And I think we have to wait and see how things work out.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25But I do hope that by the time we get the two final frontrunners
0:27:25 > 0:27:28from the Democrats and the Republicans, they are people who
0:27:28 > 0:27:32are serious politicians with serious proposals and that we move away
0:27:32 > 0:27:36from this almost reality-TV style of contest that we've seen so far.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Because we need the person who is in that role of president
0:27:39 > 0:27:41to be someone,
0:27:41 > 0:27:44frankly, who is going to be helping us to solve problems...
0:27:44 > 0:27:48- The most powerful man in the world. - ..not creating them.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50But does it worry you that American democracy,
0:27:50 > 0:27:54the democratic process, can produce Trump at this stage,
0:27:54 > 0:27:56with this amount of support?
0:27:56 > 0:27:58I think the problem is, unlike here in the UK
0:27:58 > 0:28:01where there are lots of seats that are marginal seats, they switch
0:28:01 > 0:28:05between the parties - I won a seat from Labour and I'm a Conservative -
0:28:05 > 0:28:07there are far fewer of those in the United States.
0:28:07 > 0:28:11So what happens is the real contest is becoming the candidate
0:28:11 > 0:28:16for your party for the state or the seat that you're going in.
0:28:16 > 0:28:18And what that means is that people tack off to the extreme.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21And actually, one of the good things about the British system is
0:28:21 > 0:28:23A - we have first-past-the-post.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27B - we do have seats that switch regularly during the election.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29That means people representing those communities have to
0:28:29 > 0:28:32stay on their toes and do it well, otherwise people simply get
0:28:32 > 0:28:34someone from an alternative party.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36OK. June Sarpong.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39I think, before we get to whether or not he is a Christian,
0:28:39 > 0:28:42the question is whether or not he's a human being!
0:28:42 > 0:28:43SHE LAUGHS
0:28:43 > 0:28:46APPLAUSE
0:28:46 > 0:28:49I think he is absolutely frightening
0:28:49 > 0:28:53and the fact he's got this far should scare us all very much.
0:28:53 > 0:28:58I'm hoping, just as Theo said, at some point people are going
0:28:58 > 0:29:01to wake up and say, "You know what? This isn't a joke any more.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04"This is serious. There are jobs at stake. There are lives at stake."
0:29:04 > 0:29:07And in terms of what this means about national security,
0:29:07 > 0:29:12this man is a threat to all of us and he needs to go.
0:29:12 > 0:29:13Lisa.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16- I don't feel at all qualified to... - Judge his religion...?
0:29:16 > 0:29:17Whether he's a Christian or not.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20Do you think the Pope is qualified to judge?
0:29:20 > 0:29:21LAUGHTER
0:29:21 > 0:29:24I'm sure the Pope is a lot more qualified than I am.
0:29:24 > 0:29:28What I would say is that anyone who preys on people's insecurities
0:29:28 > 0:29:31and does it at the expense of some of the most vulnerable people,
0:29:31 > 0:29:34not just in his country, but in the world, isn't fit to lead.
0:29:34 > 0:29:39And before we get a bit preachy and complacent about ourselves,
0:29:39 > 0:29:42we should reflect on the fact that we have a Prime Minister who
0:29:42 > 0:29:45just recently stood up at the dispatch box and referred to
0:29:45 > 0:29:49people fleeing persecution in Syria as a "bunch of migrants".
0:29:49 > 0:29:52I'm saying this not just because I was appalled
0:29:52 > 0:29:56by what David Cameron said, but because I think
0:29:56 > 0:30:00there are times in this country when we stray into that level of debate
0:30:00 > 0:30:04ourselves and we should always be vigilant to make sure that we don't.
0:30:04 > 0:30:07Because as we're seeing in America, you know, you start with
0:30:07 > 0:30:11something that looks like just adding a bit of colour to politics,
0:30:11 > 0:30:14you start with something that looks like a bit of a sideshow
0:30:14 > 0:30:17and what you end up with is that it gathers pace and then
0:30:17 > 0:30:21at the end it has real and profound consequences for people's lives.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23And whether Trump gets the nomination or not,
0:30:23 > 0:30:27whatever happens next, there will be people who have already suffered
0:30:27 > 0:30:30as a result of what that man has said and done.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32OK. APPLAUSE.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34HE COUGHS Yes, you, sir.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39I lived in the United States in the early '80s
0:30:39 > 0:30:42and at that stage Ronald Regan was president,
0:30:42 > 0:30:43which was scary enough.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47But I think the recent endorsement of Donald Trump by Sarah Palin was
0:30:47 > 0:30:50a new low for American politics
0:30:50 > 0:30:53And I think that the sensationalisation
0:30:53 > 0:30:55and the cheap rhetoric
0:30:55 > 0:30:59is a poor excuse for good government and good governance.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01OK. The woman there in the spectacles,
0:31:01 > 0:31:04I will come to you and then we will go on. Yes, up there.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07So you mentioned democracy in America.
0:31:07 > 0:31:11I don't think that the issue is Trump, it is the actual system.
0:31:11 > 0:31:13The system isn't democratic at all
0:31:13 > 0:31:17and if you listen to a lot of his supporters, they are not as
0:31:17 > 0:31:21much listening to what he's saying. Their main reason for supporting him
0:31:21 > 0:31:25is that he has money and that he's not listening to pressure groups.
0:31:25 > 0:31:29So the issue is how much American politics is run by money.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32- People aren't really listening to what he's saying.- OK.
0:31:32 > 0:31:34And you...
0:31:35 > 0:31:40I think, in all honesty, I think it does make the general population
0:31:40 > 0:31:45wonder just how farcical politics itself is becoming.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47That probably has a greater bearing
0:31:47 > 0:31:50on any other politician in the world.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53If they're trying to be serious and they are seeing this kind
0:31:53 > 0:31:58- of farcical thing going on, then... - It damages our politics as well?
0:31:58 > 0:31:59Absolutely it does, yes.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01Let's go to another question -
0:32:01 > 0:32:03Annabel Matharu, please.
0:32:03 > 0:32:07Stratford-upon-Avon has two excellent grammar schools.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10Is it now time to remove the barriers that prevent new
0:32:10 > 0:32:12grammar schools from opening?
0:32:12 > 0:32:14This is a big issue here, Stratford-upon-Avon,
0:32:14 > 0:32:17which has two very successful grammar schools, as you say.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20But the issue is whether there should be more of those
0:32:20 > 0:32:24and whether they damage the education system as a whole?
0:32:24 > 0:32:26Justine Greening...
0:32:26 > 0:32:29The Conservatives did allow a grammar school to grow,
0:32:29 > 0:32:32put another grammar school in a nearby town,
0:32:32 > 0:32:36but refused to allow brand-new grammar schools to start.
0:32:36 > 0:32:41What's your policy on it? What's your view of it?
0:32:41 > 0:32:43I think, broadly, what you have seen happening
0:32:43 > 0:32:45over the last five to six years is
0:32:45 > 0:32:48more and better schools, better-qualified teachers,
0:32:48 > 0:32:52more children... Around 1.3, 1.4 million more children
0:32:52 > 0:32:54in good or outstanding schools.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57So our education system is doing a better job now than it has in the
0:32:57 > 0:33:01past of preparing children for being successful in life and for work.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04And in terms of what is the best school to do that, we have been more
0:33:04 > 0:33:07flexible in allowing grammar schools to expand.
0:33:07 > 0:33:12But in the end, from my perspective, it's less about that and more
0:33:12 > 0:33:14about the teachers that are in the school,
0:33:14 > 0:33:16whether they feel they can do the
0:33:16 > 0:33:20best possible job, whether children have the right learning environment.
0:33:20 > 0:33:24We tried to free up the system by allowing more free schools to
0:33:24 > 0:33:27set up, so people with different ideas about how schools
0:33:27 > 0:33:29should run can give those a go.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32But it should be less of an argument about structure
0:33:32 > 0:33:34and more about the substance
0:33:34 > 0:33:37and the quality of what children are learning in the classroom.
0:33:37 > 0:33:39- What do you think? - Well, I had two children.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42One went to the local comprehensive school
0:33:42 > 0:33:45and my daughter went to the girls' grammar school in Stratford.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47For me, it was a case of finding
0:33:47 > 0:33:49the right school for the right child.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51And my daughter, who was quite academic,
0:33:51 > 0:33:54really thrived in that academic environment,
0:33:54 > 0:33:57and I think this one-size-fits-all in education
0:33:57 > 0:33:58isn't necessarily right.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01We have to find the right school for the right child.
0:34:01 > 0:34:05I think that's an important point. I went to my local comprehensive,
0:34:05 > 0:34:08but we have tried to make sure parents have got more choice.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10And having a wider variety of schools
0:34:10 > 0:34:14means there is going to be more choice on people's doorstep now
0:34:14 > 0:34:17than we have seen in the past, which is a good thing.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19But you think the policy should change?
0:34:19 > 0:34:22- There should be more grammar schools?- I do, yes, definitely.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24Theo, what do you think?
0:34:24 > 0:34:26I think we've got to accept one big fact,
0:34:26 > 0:34:29that not all children are the same.
0:34:29 > 0:34:31APPLAUSE
0:34:35 > 0:34:39And what we need to do is find choice and freedom of choice
0:34:39 > 0:34:41and allow people to choose schools
0:34:41 > 0:34:43that are right for their kids. I am dyslexic,
0:34:43 > 0:34:46so I would have been a total waste of time in a grammar school.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49In fact, I would have been negative in a grammar school,
0:34:49 > 0:34:50I went to a comprehensive school.
0:34:50 > 0:34:54But there's other children who will thrive in a grammar school.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56But I think we need to be able to accept that we are all
0:34:56 > 0:34:59very different and we've got to get the right school for our child.
0:34:59 > 0:35:03We can't just shoehorn everybody in some mythological school that
0:35:03 > 0:35:06just does one thing and produces the same character at the end.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09But hang on, your comprehensive school would have had
0:35:09 > 0:35:11people of all abilities, wouldn't it?
0:35:11 > 0:35:14The point about the grammar school is you select, at 11 or whenever,
0:35:14 > 0:35:17a number of children to go away and have that kind of education.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19That's the difference between the comprehensive
0:35:19 > 0:35:22- and grammar school system. - Well, not in practice, no,
0:35:22 > 0:35:25because the local grammar school would have taken the other kids,
0:35:25 > 0:35:30er, and the kids at my school were more vocational, more practical,
0:35:30 > 0:35:33and in fact a lot of the kids in my school went on to apprenticeships.
0:35:33 > 0:35:35And that's what suited us.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38But you think it was better for your school not to have the more
0:35:38 > 0:35:40- academic children in it. - I think we just...
0:35:40 > 0:35:42Not to have the more academic,
0:35:42 > 0:35:45but we majored in different things that actually rocked our boat,
0:35:45 > 0:35:49- that we were interested in, that worked for us.- OK.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52But to put a child in a situation, or a challenging situation,
0:35:52 > 0:35:55where it's not right for them, it's not... We're all so very different.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59- Lisa Nandy.- Well, I really disagree with pretty much everyone
0:35:59 > 0:36:01who's spoken on this so far
0:36:01 > 0:36:04because I think that comprehensive schools like the one I went to
0:36:04 > 0:36:06aren't just factories, actually,
0:36:06 > 0:36:10they are capable of dealing with the fact that they have different
0:36:10 > 0:36:12children in them. And the point's been made that
0:36:12 > 0:36:14not all children are the same,
0:36:14 > 0:36:17and that surely is the reason why we shouldn't allow
0:36:17 > 0:36:18the expansion of grammar schools,
0:36:18 > 0:36:21because children develop at different rates,
0:36:21 > 0:36:23they come from very different backgrounds,
0:36:23 > 0:36:26and we know the evidence is very clear that children who come from
0:36:26 > 0:36:29more deprived backgrounds often end up catching up later
0:36:29 > 0:36:32in terms of their academic achievements. And I think
0:36:32 > 0:36:35we do a real disservice not just to those children, actually,
0:36:35 > 0:36:38but to all children when we seek to divide them in that way,
0:36:38 > 0:36:42because the greatest thing that my comprehensive school gave to me
0:36:42 > 0:36:45was the chance to meet and get to know children from all
0:36:45 > 0:36:48different backgrounds and of all different abilities
0:36:48 > 0:36:50and I think that's what we should be aiming for,
0:36:50 > 0:36:52to give a good chance to every child,
0:36:52 > 0:36:54not just for social advantage
0:36:54 > 0:36:59- but for social enlightenment as well.- OK.
0:36:59 > 0:37:00Yes, you.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03- In the third row from the back. - Are the panel totally unaware...
0:37:03 > 0:37:06No, the woman in the third row. I'll come to you in a moment. Yes.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09Yeah, you made the point that it's kind of almost
0:37:09 > 0:37:13sectioned off areas of society, so the elitist go to grammar schools,
0:37:13 > 0:37:16the non-elitist perhaps go to comprehensive.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19I come from a non-elitist family, I go to a local grammar school,
0:37:19 > 0:37:22I travel about 40 minutes a day to get there.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24My sister went to her local comprehensive.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26She's achieved just as much as I've achieved,
0:37:26 > 0:37:30she's accomplished everything she wanted to accomplish and so have I.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32I think it's wrong in a way to say that it is...
0:37:32 > 0:37:35You know, "I got to mix with a whole range of people
0:37:35 > 0:37:37"because I went to a comprehensive."
0:37:37 > 0:37:40I've mixed with an equally versatile and variant array of people
0:37:40 > 0:37:43and I've been to a grammar school and my sister
0:37:43 > 0:37:45and I have accomplished just as well as each other.
0:37:45 > 0:37:49- So you're in favour of keeping the grammar schools?- Yeah, definitely.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53You don't think you could have got what you got from the comprehensive?
0:37:53 > 0:37:55I think you get different things.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58I wouldn't have done particularly well at a comprehensive -
0:37:58 > 0:37:59I like quite small environments -
0:37:59 > 0:38:01whereas my sister thrived on mingling
0:38:01 > 0:38:03and lots of different people, socialising.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05I think it's a different learning environment.
0:38:05 > 0:38:07Man at the back.
0:38:07 > 0:38:08Are the panel totally unaware
0:38:08 > 0:38:11that there's a national teacher shortage?
0:38:11 > 0:38:15We can't recruit teachers, we can't hold on to teachers,
0:38:15 > 0:38:20and our further education system is so underfunded it's falling apart.
0:38:20 > 0:38:22And where do you stand on the grammar school issue?
0:38:22 > 0:38:25You think it's relevant in that context?
0:38:25 > 0:38:27Secondary schools were perfectly fine for me
0:38:27 > 0:38:30- and they should be perfectly fine for everybody else.- OK.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32Erm... SOME APPLAUSE
0:38:34 > 0:38:37- John Nicolson. - Erm, it's a great question.
0:38:37 > 0:38:43My grandma left school at 12 and my mum left school at 14.
0:38:43 > 0:38:48Education has absolutely transformed my life and my prospects.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51There is nothing more important for us as a society, I think,
0:38:51 > 0:38:56than education, but I think 11 is far too young to choose.
0:38:56 > 0:39:01You're not formed at 11, and we all develop at different rates,
0:39:01 > 0:39:05so the idea of taking an 11-year-old child and saying, "Look,
0:39:05 > 0:39:08"you should go to a grammar school because you're bright,
0:39:08 > 0:39:10"and you're not quite so bright,
0:39:10 > 0:39:12"and therefore you're not going to a grammar school," I think
0:39:12 > 0:39:15sends out all the wrong signals, because you're absolutely right...
0:39:18 > 0:39:19You're...
0:39:19 > 0:39:22You're absolutely right, children are all different,
0:39:22 > 0:39:26but then adults are all different as well, and we don't segregate
0:39:26 > 0:39:29adults, and I don't think we should segregate children.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32One of the great joys of the comprehensive school system is
0:39:32 > 0:39:35that children mix with people of different abilities,
0:39:35 > 0:39:38from different backgrounds and different ethnic groups,
0:39:38 > 0:39:40different social classes,
0:39:40 > 0:39:43and that prepares them for the rest of their lives, because we're
0:39:43 > 0:39:46going to spend the rest of our lives mixing with very different people.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49Do you mean bright or academic?
0:39:49 > 0:39:52I take exception to that, do you mean bright or academic?
0:39:52 > 0:39:54Well, a bit... Well, obviously academic.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57Well, no, they're different words, totally different words.
0:39:57 > 0:39:59They are, but try teaching that to a child,
0:39:59 > 0:40:03because if at 11 you're told that you're not going into that class,
0:40:03 > 0:40:06you're going into another class, you won't make that distinction,
0:40:06 > 0:40:09you'll just think you haven't made the grade, and it's wrong
0:40:09 > 0:40:11- to treat children like that. - That's the generalisation.
0:40:11 > 0:40:14The woman in green up there, I want to hear from the audience.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17Now, I teach in a non-selective local school.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20When I say local, it's actually 15 miles from here, but because
0:40:20 > 0:40:24of the boundaries we actually fall into the same category.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28Now, it seems to be the opinion of everybody I've heard so far
0:40:28 > 0:40:31that if you've got local grammar schools they somehow
0:40:31 > 0:40:34detract from the other schools in the locality.
0:40:34 > 0:40:36It's absolutely not true.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39My school is one of the top schools in the country
0:40:39 > 0:40:41and we are totally non-selective,
0:40:41 > 0:40:45and yet a lot of the students go to the local grammar schools here.
0:40:45 > 0:40:46So do you have any view
0:40:46 > 0:40:49about whether it's desirable to have more grammar schools?
0:40:49 > 0:40:52Are you saying they can live perfectly well cheek by jowl?
0:40:52 > 0:40:55I think they can live perfectly well side-by-side and I think
0:40:55 > 0:40:59academic children deserve the right to have a more academic one and...
0:40:59 > 0:41:02APPLAUSE OK.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04And the... Thank you.
0:41:04 > 0:41:08The woman in the...black dress with the white spots.
0:41:08 > 0:41:12Erm, a few of the panel have mentioned about the importance
0:41:12 > 0:41:14of choice, and while I agree with that,
0:41:14 > 0:41:16in that all children are different
0:41:16 > 0:41:20and will thrive in different environments, as a parent myself,
0:41:20 > 0:41:23what I want to know is whatever my local school is there is
0:41:23 > 0:41:27a good standard of education and my child will get a good education,
0:41:27 > 0:41:29and, yes, it is nice to have choice
0:41:29 > 0:41:33but actually wherever children go to school we want them
0:41:33 > 0:41:36all to be getting that good standard of care, of education,
0:41:36 > 0:41:39wherever they go and whatever the choices.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41- June Sarpong.- Well, I think
0:41:41 > 0:41:44that grammar schools do not address one of the biggest problems
0:41:44 > 0:41:47we have in our education system, which is
0:41:47 > 0:41:51the low literacy rates of boys from poor communities.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54Our education system is completely failing them.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57So grammar schools help the gifted children,
0:41:57 > 0:42:00but what are we going to do about the whole generation of young boys
0:42:00 > 0:42:05from poor families who are completely being left to just...
0:42:05 > 0:42:07just squander because we are not investing in those?
0:42:07 > 0:42:10- And I think that's what we also need to be looking at.- OK. You...
0:42:10 > 0:42:13- And this government needs to be addressing it.- You, sir.
0:42:14 > 0:42:18I think I'm reasonably well qualified to talk about this
0:42:18 > 0:42:21because I taught in one of those grammar schools.
0:42:21 > 0:42:25I've also been in about 100 schools over the last five years
0:42:25 > 0:42:26as a supply teacher.
0:42:26 > 0:42:29And one of the things that I would say
0:42:29 > 0:42:32is that there are three key things about this.
0:42:32 > 0:42:37One is that you make sure that you get the very best people to be
0:42:37 > 0:42:41the head teachers and that they have around them a really good
0:42:41 > 0:42:46team of senior teachers who can support them in everything they do.
0:42:46 > 0:42:50But that would apply to all schools, private, grammar or comprehensive.
0:42:50 > 0:42:53Very much so. Secondly, more important than this,
0:42:53 > 0:42:56teachers are getting buried under paperwork
0:42:56 > 0:43:02and they are being forced by league tables and Ofsted to comply
0:43:02 > 0:43:07to all sorts of rules which are just plainly against education...
0:43:07 > 0:43:11But again, sorry, this would apply to private and grammar
0:43:11 > 0:43:13- and comprehensive schools. - Absolutely.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16The question is about whether grammar schools are desirable.
0:43:16 > 0:43:22Well, personally I...I think that it really doesn't matter particularly.
0:43:22 > 0:43:28The most important thing is that the system is changed radically
0:43:28 > 0:43:31and very soon, before all the teachers that the gentleman
0:43:31 > 0:43:34at the back referred to, who are leaving the profession...
0:43:34 > 0:43:37I know why they're leaving the profession,
0:43:37 > 0:43:41because they're actually sickened off by what is going on.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44Irrelevant whether we have academies,
0:43:44 > 0:43:46grammar schools, comprehensives.
0:43:46 > 0:43:51Make sure that the teaching profession is valued,
0:43:51 > 0:43:55because it is a very important profession and it is one that
0:43:55 > 0:43:57people should look up to, not try and slate,
0:43:57 > 0:44:01- and this is very important. - But would you...
0:44:01 > 0:44:05- would you abandon testing of schools, would you...?- Yes!
0:44:05 > 0:44:08- Definitely.- You would abandon all of that?- Definitely.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11- There are systems working... - APPLAUSE
0:44:11 > 0:44:15There are systems working in Europe which don't test
0:44:15 > 0:44:19children to the nth degree. This is getting ridiculous, people are...
0:44:19 > 0:44:21- JOHN NICOLSON:- Finland, for example.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Teachers are now teaching to the exam.
0:44:24 > 0:44:27I've been in a really good school in Northamptonshire
0:44:27 > 0:44:29for the last four weeks.
0:44:29 > 0:44:35The senior teachers there say that we are playing the exam game
0:44:35 > 0:44:38because we know that we've got talented
0:44:38 > 0:44:42pupils in our school who've just got to be schooled through the exams.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45- That's not education. - All right, well...
0:44:45 > 0:44:47That's nothing like it!
0:44:47 > 0:44:50- APPLAUSE - Nothing like it!
0:44:54 > 0:44:57Well, a lot of these new tests were introduced by Michael Gove
0:44:57 > 0:44:59when he was Education Secretary, Justine.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01What do you make of what he's said?
0:45:01 > 0:45:03I think we've got to make sure that
0:45:03 > 0:45:07if we are measuring schools that it is worthwhile and it allows
0:45:07 > 0:45:10parents to have meaningful information so they can get
0:45:10 > 0:45:12a sense of how their child is doing,
0:45:12 > 0:45:14but also how the school overall is doing.
0:45:14 > 0:45:18Go to the school and then you would realise what it's really about!
0:45:18 > 0:45:20Just go into the school, speak to the head teacher,
0:45:20 > 0:45:24speak to the people who are really in charge and then you will know.
0:45:24 > 0:45:25You will feel its pulse.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29You are right and I have spent ten years as a school governor
0:45:29 > 0:45:31in my local community as well.
0:45:31 > 0:45:32The key to this is,
0:45:32 > 0:45:36as I said to the response before, is making sure there is a learning
0:45:36 > 0:45:40environment and that teachers can get on with their job, but we need
0:45:40 > 0:45:43to make sure parents have got the kind of information they
0:45:43 > 0:45:48need to know about how the school is doing and how their child is doing.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52What I did want to say was there are lots of places in Britain
0:45:52 > 0:45:56where we are seeing our schools radically improve and get better.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59I am an MP in London and we've really seen London schools
0:45:59 > 0:46:02come on in leaps and bounds over recent years.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05We now need to make sure we understand how that
0:46:05 > 0:46:08kind of progress is happening and why.
0:46:08 > 0:46:10I agree, a lot of it is about leadership
0:46:10 > 0:46:14and the senior leadership team around a head teacher.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17I have a fantastic school in my constituency
0:46:17 > 0:46:20called Ronald Ross which has transformed over the last two
0:46:20 > 0:46:22years and it's because of that.
0:46:22 > 0:46:25We know what works, the question is how can we make sure that in
0:46:25 > 0:46:28schools that are failing - and some can be in affluent areas as well -
0:46:28 > 0:46:30how we don't accept that?
0:46:30 > 0:46:33And if we need to change leadership we should.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35You have to engage the parents.
0:46:35 > 0:46:39We need to make the parents feel they are involved in the school,
0:46:39 > 0:46:43they have an engagement with the school, because that transforms
0:46:43 > 0:46:45the quality of education for children,
0:46:45 > 0:46:47if parents don't feel locked out.
0:46:47 > 0:46:52We have ten minutes left. I want to move on to another point
0:46:52 > 0:46:56unless anybody wants to desperately come in with something.
0:46:56 > 0:47:00Yes. You've spoken already tonight, haven't you? You, sir.
0:47:00 > 0:47:04I would say, I work in what would be a comprehensive school,
0:47:04 > 0:47:08- now an academy. I've worked there for ten years.- As a teacher?
0:47:08 > 0:47:11No. That is an important thing. I was in business.
0:47:11 > 0:47:16I now work as an enterprise manager, a work experience manager helping
0:47:16 > 0:47:21people, our students, to link with the world of academia and business.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24Yes, grammar schools are desirable. I went to one.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27My old comp, now an academy, is desirable.
0:47:27 > 0:47:32I work there every day and work with fantastic colleagues...
0:47:32 > 0:47:36Do you think there should be more grammar schools than there are?
0:47:36 > 0:47:40Personally, I think there should be more schools.
0:47:40 > 0:47:43There should be more schools, quite honestly,
0:47:43 > 0:47:45either grammar or whatever.
0:47:45 > 0:47:49The point I'm trying to say is - what you have all said is brilliant
0:47:49 > 0:47:52because it's getting that for the right thing.
0:47:52 > 0:47:56The only test that you need is that the student comes out of that
0:47:56 > 0:47:58school well prepared for life.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01Whatever school gives them that is the best school.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03Last quick point.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05APPLAUSE
0:48:07 > 0:48:08Very briefly, if you would.
0:48:08 > 0:48:12What I've heard during this discussion is segregation, elitism.
0:48:12 > 0:48:16What I keep hearing - grammar school, comprehensive, academy -
0:48:16 > 0:48:18far too many levels of separation.
0:48:18 > 0:48:22We have faith schools, comprehensive, grammar -
0:48:22 > 0:48:24all we are encouraging is segregation.
0:48:24 > 0:48:29Separating societies and isolating young people in establishments
0:48:29 > 0:48:32and expecting them to come together as adults,
0:48:32 > 0:48:35and they will have challenges then.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37APPLAUSE
0:48:37 > 0:48:42You are against faith schools, you're against grammar schools...
0:48:42 > 0:48:45We have too many. What's next? We keep separating.
0:48:45 > 0:48:49Next we might have segregation in councils,
0:48:49 > 0:48:50in the NHS, for example.
0:48:50 > 0:48:56Why is there a need to separate and have all these separations going on?
0:48:56 > 0:48:58OK. Thank you very much for that.
0:48:58 > 0:48:59- Can I say...?- No. Be brief.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01Equality of opportunity -
0:49:01 > 0:49:04that is how you stop segregation in the long term.
0:49:04 > 0:49:07Kids coming out of school feeling like they all have a great chance
0:49:07 > 0:49:11of being successful in our country wherever they start.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13That goes without saying.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16Nick Rendell, your question, please.
0:49:16 > 0:49:21My 87-year-old mother pays just over 50% more than me for electricity.
0:49:21 > 0:49:25Why has Ofgem been so hopeless at protecting the vulnerable?
0:49:25 > 0:49:29Why is your 87-year-old mother paying 50% more than you?
0:49:29 > 0:49:33- Well, she's not any more. I changed it at the weekend.- Right.
0:49:33 > 0:49:36You could protect her rather than Ofgem!
0:49:36 > 0:49:40I only discovered it at the weekend and we've sorted it out.
0:49:40 > 0:49:43My point is really, I think someone who is 87 is maybe...
0:49:43 > 0:49:45her eyesight is not as good.
0:49:45 > 0:49:50The internet is the only way you can get really good prices.
0:49:50 > 0:49:52I don't give a damn how much the people in this room pay because
0:49:52 > 0:49:56they can all access the market, perfectly easily access the market.
0:49:56 > 0:50:0070% of the population choose not to change their utility prices,
0:50:00 > 0:50:02which is their lookout.
0:50:02 > 0:50:06I'm concerned about people who don't have internet access,
0:50:06 > 0:50:11can't access the sainted Martin Lewis' website
0:50:11 > 0:50:13to get the best prices on the market,
0:50:13 > 0:50:17which is lower than the standard rate price
0:50:17 > 0:50:19which 70% of the population pays.
0:50:19 > 0:50:23Lisa Nandy is the Shadow Energy Secretary. What do you say?
0:50:23 > 0:50:27The energy market is not competitive enough.
0:50:27 > 0:50:29I would say that it can be incredibly confusing
0:50:29 > 0:50:33and it makes it difficult for people like your mum who aren't
0:50:33 > 0:50:35necessarily on the internet, like you said,
0:50:35 > 0:50:40can't necessarily weed out where the best deals might be found.
0:50:40 > 0:50:44Actually, I do care about everybody else as well because it has
0:50:44 > 0:50:48become increasingly clear in recent years that most of us are getting
0:50:48 > 0:50:53ripped off by the energy market and the way that it works at the moment.
0:50:53 > 0:50:58Today, we saw British Gas announce a leap in profits of 31%.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02Yet we have seen a dramatic fall in the wholesale price of gas
0:51:02 > 0:51:06and those falls have not been passed on to consumers.
0:51:06 > 0:51:09There's a body called the Competition and Markets Authority
0:51:09 > 0:51:12that was commissioned to look at the way
0:51:12 > 0:51:15that the energy market is working.
0:51:15 > 0:51:18That found that consumers had been overcharged to the tune
0:51:18 > 0:51:23of £1.2 billion a year every year between 2009-2013.
0:51:23 > 0:51:28The truth is, the Energy Secretary says she has been crystal clear
0:51:28 > 0:51:31that the companies need to change their behaviour.
0:51:31 > 0:51:34But the energy companies have been crystal clear
0:51:34 > 0:51:36they are not listening.
0:51:36 > 0:51:41When she wrote to the Big Six, only two could be bothered to reply.
0:51:41 > 0:51:46I think we need real action to bring proper competition into this market.
0:51:46 > 0:51:48Next month the CMA will report.
0:51:48 > 0:51:52They said last year that we should have a safeguard tariff to
0:51:52 > 0:51:55make sure that people, particularly the vulnerable,
0:51:55 > 0:51:58get the best deal in the market.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01They got a lot of kickback from the industry on that.
0:52:01 > 0:52:04What I want to see next month is some really bold proposals
0:52:04 > 0:52:07that give us real competition, that give us decent deals.
0:52:07 > 0:52:11I want to see a government that is prepared to step in and act
0:52:11 > 0:52:14and not just lecture the energy companies who aren't listening.
0:52:20 > 0:52:22So we're all getting ripped off
0:52:22 > 0:52:26and the energy companies ignore your Energy Secretary.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28First of all, I have to point out
0:52:28 > 0:52:30if we had what Labour wanted at the last election
0:52:30 > 0:52:34we would have had an energy price freeze which would mean a cap...
0:52:34 > 0:52:37Cap, which means it couldn't go above a certain amount.
0:52:37 > 0:52:40..we wouldn't see the kind of falls we are seeing now.
0:52:40 > 0:52:42That is not true, you know that.
0:52:42 > 0:52:45This government had the CMA look into this situation
0:52:45 > 0:52:47and more than that, though, as you will know,
0:52:47 > 0:52:51we've brought through legislation that means simpler tariffs
0:52:51 > 0:52:54and energy companies having to flag up to people
0:52:54 > 0:52:57when they are on a more expensive tariff than they ought to be.
0:52:57 > 0:53:00"What has it achieved?" is my question to you.
0:53:00 > 0:53:04It's a lot more than you achieved over 13 years which saw competition
0:53:04 > 0:53:08exit the market, and we're trying to get competition back into it.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11- Not true.- It's not quite so straightforward
0:53:11 > 0:53:13to say this problem has arisen now.
0:53:13 > 0:53:16We are making sure Ofgem has teeth,
0:53:16 > 0:53:18making sure the market operates effectively,
0:53:18 > 0:53:21making sure consumers do know whether they are on the best
0:53:21 > 0:53:23tariff or not and making the tariff simpler.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26That is why that gentleman knows his mother is
0:53:26 > 0:53:29not on as good a tariff as she should be.
0:53:29 > 0:53:32- The tariff system is mad. - What?- The tariff system is mad!
0:53:32 > 0:53:34Which is why it's been simplified.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37If you try to find what you're paying per kilowatt-hour,
0:53:37 > 0:53:39it's virtually impossible.
0:53:39 > 0:53:43I've never known a market that can be so mismanaged.
0:53:43 > 0:53:46I think again, I don't think it's the companies.
0:53:46 > 0:53:49I think it is Ofgem who have structured the system.
0:53:49 > 0:53:52If you go on to the website, you try and find how much you pay
0:53:52 > 0:53:56per kilowatt-hour and the tariffs are buried so far away
0:53:56 > 0:54:00- it's virtually impossible to find it.- You at the back.
0:54:00 > 0:54:04I think the regulators need to be brought to book.
0:54:05 > 0:54:07The companies, while they are in private hands,
0:54:07 > 0:54:09will try to maximise their profits.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11It's up to the regulators to control that
0:54:11 > 0:54:13and to stop people getting ripped off.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16All those British Gas customers that haven't had a price decrease
0:54:16 > 0:54:19should get a rebate today.
0:54:19 > 0:54:20John Nicolson?
0:54:20 > 0:54:24You need a PhD in Applied Maths to understand the tariffs.
0:54:24 > 0:54:29Maybe that is what we should teach 11-year-olds to help them
0:54:29 > 0:54:30later in life.
0:54:30 > 0:54:34It is disgraceful that old people are shivering in their homes
0:54:34 > 0:54:38and scared to turn on their energy supply.
0:54:38 > 0:54:41It is disgraceful. It has gone on for far too long.
0:54:41 > 0:54:44We don't have a functioning system of competition.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47One of the problems, of course, is that people don't switch.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50They don't switch because they can't understand
0:54:50 > 0:54:51the benefits of switching.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54Many of them stay with the old utility companies that have
0:54:54 > 0:54:57been privatised and so a lot of people are paying
0:54:57 > 0:54:58much more than they need to.
0:54:58 > 0:55:02They get little help from the government in understanding it.
0:55:02 > 0:55:07One of the disgraces, of course, is when energy supplies
0:55:07 > 0:55:13come down in price, those are not passed on to the consumer.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16When they go up, then they are passed on to the consumer
0:55:16 > 0:55:20as quickly as the energy companies can possibly do.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23So they are rascals, the energy companies.
0:55:23 > 0:55:26They need to be called to heel
0:55:26 > 0:55:29and they need to be strictly regulated.
0:55:29 > 0:55:33Theo Paphitis... Do you come to the defence of the energy companies?
0:55:33 > 0:55:35We have a minute or two left.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38We talked about the regulator.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41They have to be called to account here.
0:55:41 > 0:55:45But each company has their tariffs.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48They have got more details on our usage than we have.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51They know exactly what we're spending.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55It's not rocket science for them to automatically put
0:55:55 > 0:55:58everybody on the right tariff that's best for them.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01But for some reason, they don't wish to do so.
0:56:01 > 0:56:02It's down to the regulator.
0:56:02 > 0:56:06- They could be instructed to do so. - It's dead easy.
0:56:06 > 0:56:11We have legislated for energy companies to have to be clear
0:56:11 > 0:56:15with people when they are not on the right tariff.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17They are saying it's not happening.
0:56:17 > 0:56:21You don't have to be clear or notify them -
0:56:21 > 0:56:23you don't have to do anything.
0:56:23 > 0:56:25It's really, really easy, this.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28- You just do it.- June. - I'm with Theo.
0:56:28 > 0:56:29OK. All right.
0:56:29 > 0:56:34You, sir, there on the left. We have to come to an end.
0:56:34 > 0:56:39I know it's Stratford-upon-Avon, so I might be in the minority.
0:56:39 > 0:56:41Why don't we nationalise the energy sector?
0:56:41 > 0:56:46Because it should work for the benefit of the people.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49That ship has sailed, unfortunately.
0:56:49 > 0:56:52That ship has sailed. The last point here.
0:56:53 > 0:56:58I have a friend who moved to Spain, they get the winter fuel allowance.
0:56:58 > 0:57:00How can that be?
0:57:00 > 0:57:03Again, that's something that we are changing and announced
0:57:03 > 0:57:07I think at the last Budget that we are not going to be paying
0:57:07 > 0:57:11the winter fuel allowance to people living in countries like Spain.
0:57:11 > 0:57:13The person there. Yes, you.
0:57:13 > 0:57:17Do you not think that the government should be helping smaller
0:57:17 > 0:57:20energy firms to grow so that bigger energy firms
0:57:20 > 0:57:23don't have a monopoly over the market?
0:57:23 > 0:57:26Especially because what we really need to see is a lot more
0:57:26 > 0:57:29competition in where our energy comes from.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32What this government did when it attacked renewables
0:57:32 > 0:57:36and removed overnight the subsidies for solar and wind energy and taken
0:57:36 > 0:57:40away the tax relief for community energy projects has meant that more
0:57:40 > 0:57:43power is given to the Big Six energy companies
0:57:43 > 0:57:45and taken away from people.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47Brief point.
0:57:49 > 0:57:52Labour and the Tories blaming each other.
0:57:52 > 0:57:55One thing they could have controlled in office
0:57:55 > 0:57:57was the level of tax on fuel, whether it is gas,
0:57:57 > 0:57:59electricity or petrol.
0:57:59 > 0:58:01None of them ever seem to bother to do it.
0:58:01 > 0:58:04When it comes to green taxes,
0:58:04 > 0:58:07that is part of the reason why
0:58:07 > 0:58:10fuel prices, energy prices are so high.
0:58:10 > 0:58:16- We have to stop.- I would agree with Piers Corbyn, not Jeremy!
0:58:16 > 0:58:19Yeah, we might go into that another time.
0:58:19 > 0:58:20A whole new debate.
0:58:20 > 0:58:24Our energy has not run out, has it? But we have to stop, the time is up.
0:58:24 > 0:58:28Now, where will we be next week? Poole in Dorset.
0:58:28 > 0:58:31Julian Fellowes, who wrote Downton Abbey, will be on the panel.
0:58:31 > 0:58:34That's all I know for the moment.
0:58:34 > 0:58:37The week after in Liverpool, where we always get a good programme.
0:58:37 > 0:58:41If you want to come to Poole or Liverpool, go to our website
0:58:41 > 0:58:43or call us:
0:58:45 > 0:58:49On Radio 5 Live this debate goes on, on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:49 > 0:58:51From here, my thanks to all our panellists
0:58:51 > 0:58:56and to all of you who came to Stratford-upon-Avon to take part.
0:58:56 > 0:59:00Until next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight!