0:00:02 > 0:00:05Tonight, we are in Poole in Dorset, and this is Question Time.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14And of course, welcome to all of you and to people watching at home,
0:00:14 > 0:00:16or listening on the radio,
0:00:16 > 0:00:19and to our panel. Tonight, our panel is
0:00:19 > 0:00:22the Conservative Environment Secretary, Elizabeth Truss,
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Labour's Shadow International Development Secretary, Diane Abbott,
0:00:26 > 0:00:30the columnist and broadcaster, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:00:30 > 0:00:34the parish priest and Guardian columnist, Giles Fraser,
0:00:34 > 0:00:35and the creator of Downton Abbey
0:00:35 > 0:00:39who takes the Tory whip in the House of Lords, Julian Fellowes.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42APPLAUSE
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0:01:06 > 0:01:10Before I take the first question, we are now into the
0:01:10 > 0:01:13referendum campaign, I suppose.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15We've got just 17 weeks to go before the vote.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18So here on Question Time,
0:01:18 > 0:01:20we're going to be trying to balance our panels
0:01:20 > 0:01:25and our audiences to meet both sides of the argument.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Tonight, for instance, we have
0:01:27 > 0:01:31two politicians who want Britain to remain and three
0:01:31 > 0:01:34non-politicians, who I think we shall see, want to leave.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38And we'll chop and change as the weeks go on.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40And we'll expect everybody on either side to
0:01:40 > 0:01:42speak up loudly in the audience,
0:01:42 > 0:01:44so that we don't get accused of bias.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46Darrel Kwong, please, has the first question.
0:01:46 > 0:01:51323,000 net immigration. Surely we have to leave the EU
0:01:51 > 0:01:53to get control?
0:01:53 > 0:01:56OK. We have to leave the EU to get control of immigration.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Big point. Liz Truss.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00It is certainly the case
0:02:00 > 0:02:03that we have to do more to address immigration.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05We have worked very hard on this.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07We've put in a cap for migrants
0:02:07 > 0:02:09from outside the EU.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12And the deal that David Cameron has negotiated in Europe will mean
0:02:12 > 0:02:18that we do reduce the pull factors in terms of welfare and benefits,
0:02:18 > 0:02:22so that people can't start claiming the minute they arrive in Britain,
0:02:22 > 0:02:24and they do have to look for a job straightaway.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28And if they don't get a job, then they will have to leave.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31That is what is really important to British people, that
0:02:31 > 0:02:33the rules are fair and people...
0:02:33 > 0:02:36Are you going to get down to the 100,000 that Cameron promised?
0:02:36 > 0:02:39And people aren't getting something for nothing.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42Are you going to get down to the 100,000? 300,000 at the moment.
0:02:42 > 0:02:47That is still our aim, David, and we have seen the most recent
0:02:47 > 0:02:49figures in quarterly returns have dipped slightly.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52But we do need to make more progress.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54But what I would say here is,
0:02:54 > 0:02:58in terms of our debate about the European Union,
0:02:58 > 0:03:00free movement of people is a very important
0:03:00 > 0:03:04part of the single market. And the single market brings huge
0:03:04 > 0:03:05benefits to Britain.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08There is £150 billion worth of trade
0:03:08 > 0:03:11we do with the single market every year.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15We've got access to everything, unfettered access to selling our
0:03:15 > 0:03:19services, selling our goods, selling our farmed products.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22And I think it would be hugely damaging for us to leave
0:03:22 > 0:03:23that single market.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26But Darrel is talking about immigration. There are lots of
0:03:26 > 0:03:28aspects to this vote. He's talking about immigration.
0:03:28 > 0:03:33What I am saying is that free movement does go hand in hand
0:03:33 > 0:03:36with being part of the single market,
0:03:36 > 0:03:38so anybody who says that they want to get rid
0:03:38 > 0:03:41of free movement also has to accept
0:03:41 > 0:03:45that means getting out, in some way, of the single market.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48It means not being able to sell our goods and services.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51It means less growth here in Britain,
0:03:51 > 0:03:55and it means people not being able to benefit from those
0:03:55 > 0:03:57exports, which means jobs, it means businesses,
0:03:57 > 0:04:01- it means people being able to buy their homes.- OK, but...
0:04:01 > 0:04:03What I am saying is there is no utopia
0:04:03 > 0:04:06where we can simply close the borders and say,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09our economy will remain intact and remain the same.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12- It won't. - The question is about immigration.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15If we left the EU, in your opinion would we be able to control
0:04:15 > 0:04:18immigration and get it down to the kind of figures
0:04:18 > 0:04:20the Tory Government promised?
0:04:20 > 0:04:24Of course we could totally close our borders and close off trade with
0:04:24 > 0:04:28the rest of the world, but we would be very, very poorly off
0:04:28 > 0:04:31- and we would see economic stagnation.- All right.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33And I don't think that's an option.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36- Julian Fellowes.- We know also that we don't have enough
0:04:36 > 0:04:38skills in this country and what we need to do is build up
0:04:38 > 0:04:42the skills of our young people to be able to do those jobs like
0:04:42 > 0:04:44engineering, where we do not have enough people to do those jobs.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47- Julian Fellowes.- I think the element of immigration
0:04:47 > 0:04:51that gets rather lost in the EU conversation is that a great
0:04:51 > 0:04:54many of the immigrants who want to come to this country
0:04:54 > 0:04:56are nothing to do with the EU.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59And we don't seem to have a frightfully effective policy
0:04:59 > 0:05:02there, even though we are not fettered by the EU laws
0:05:02 > 0:05:04dealing with people outside.
0:05:04 > 0:05:09We obviously need a better policy. But like everyone else here,
0:05:09 > 0:05:11I am sure, I am very torn by this,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14because people talk about, "They are only financial immigrants",
0:05:14 > 0:05:16whatever the term is,
0:05:16 > 0:05:19"They're not really persecuted, they just want a better life."
0:05:19 > 0:05:21Well, why shouldn't they want a better life?
0:05:21 > 0:05:23APPLAUSE
0:05:25 > 0:05:27I don't understand that.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30I think we obviously have to find a better balance,
0:05:30 > 0:05:34we obviously have to find a policy, but we never
0:05:34 > 0:05:37want to shut our doors completely. We're all agreed on that.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42In your opinion, would one of the advantages of leaving the EU be
0:05:42 > 0:05:44that you could get better control over immigration?
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Is that something you'd think of as an advantage?
0:05:47 > 0:05:51You could have obviously a better control of the EU area
0:05:51 > 0:05:54because we would not be part of the freedom of movement.
0:05:54 > 0:05:55Would you like to see that happen?
0:05:55 > 0:05:59I'd like to be out, we'll get to that later,
0:05:59 > 0:06:01but actually the immigration is not my reason.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Obviously you would control the borders better
0:06:03 > 0:06:06but I think we need a better immigration policy across the board,
0:06:06 > 0:06:09- and that is it.- The woman there.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13- I'm sorry, but I can't accept... - Sorry, start... Yeah, go on.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Sorry. I was just saying I'm sorry, but I can't accept
0:06:15 > 0:06:19Liz's argument that they are trying to remove the pull
0:06:19 > 0:06:23factors for migrants, because what is increasing the living wage to
0:06:23 > 0:06:25£9 in 2020 going to do?
0:06:25 > 0:06:28Especially Eastern Europeans who have a minimum wage that's already
0:06:28 > 0:06:30one tenth of what ours is.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32Surely that's going to increase net migration.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34So what would you do? Not touch the minimum wage,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37or get out of the EU and control the borders?
0:06:37 > 0:06:39I would get out of the EU so we could have a fair,
0:06:39 > 0:06:42points based system, so we don't favour
0:06:42 > 0:06:46people from outside the EU over people in the EU.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Because we can have someone unskilled within Europe
0:06:49 > 0:06:53coming in without any questions, but a really talented doctor from
0:06:53 > 0:06:57India has to go through a really intensive process.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59- It doesn't make sense.- OK. Diane Abbott. Will you answer that?
0:06:59 > 0:07:02Pick up her point if you would.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05APPLAUSE
0:07:05 > 0:07:08My parents were immigrants.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12So the audience will forgive me if I say
0:07:12 > 0:07:17I worry about a narrative on immigration which only stresses
0:07:17 > 0:07:19the negatives, which...
0:07:19 > 0:07:23APPLAUSE
0:07:23 > 0:07:27..which is riddled with myths,
0:07:27 > 0:07:31that immigrants just come here to sit down and live off benefits,
0:07:31 > 0:07:36and actually panders to people, and raises expectations that you can
0:07:36 > 0:07:39clear the streets of anyone foreign looking,
0:07:39 > 0:07:47when in 2016, in the globalised world, it's not going to happen.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50I was in the House of Commons this week,
0:07:50 > 0:07:54and one of his own Conservative MPs asked David Cameron,
0:07:54 > 0:07:58with his fiddling around with benefits, how many fewer migrants
0:07:58 > 0:08:00will we see? He didn't answer.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04Cameron's renegotiation is a con, it's a con,
0:08:04 > 0:08:08it's about managing the Tory party.
0:08:10 > 0:08:15It's all about his internal management of the Tory party.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17There are reasons to stay in Europe,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20there are reasons to stay out of Europe.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24I personally am glad we're having a referendum.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27It should be the people's referendum. It shouldn't be
0:08:27 > 0:08:30dominated by the games they are playing in the Tory party,
0:08:30 > 0:08:31Dave versus Boris.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36I think we should look at the real issues, have a genuine debate.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38It's a once-in-a-lifetime debate...
0:08:38 > 0:08:39We know all that.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42- All right...- Wait a minute. The question... I want to go back to the
0:08:42 > 0:08:45question that Darrel asked, which was about immigration.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48You know the Tory party had this plan at the last election in the
0:08:48 > 0:08:51- manifesto to limit immigration to tens of thousands.- Yeah, but...
0:08:51 > 0:08:54What's your opinion on the level of immigration
0:08:54 > 0:08:56that this country should try to achieve,
0:08:56 > 0:08:58or do you think it should be open to anybody?
0:08:58 > 0:08:59We've never had...
0:08:59 > 0:09:01This country's never had an open door on immigration.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04No. What do you think?
0:09:04 > 0:09:05- Well...- Where have you been...?
0:09:05 > 0:09:08I've actually been in Hackney, dealing with thousands of people
0:09:08 > 0:09:11every year trying to get their relatives
0:09:11 > 0:09:13and their mothers and their children in.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17That's where I've been. That's why I know we don't have
0:09:17 > 0:09:18open door immigration.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20I wouldn't want to give a figure.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24I think the important thing is we have a fair immigration system,
0:09:24 > 0:09:27an immigration system which works for our economy.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29I don't think you can give a figure.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31I think the Tories have got into trouble
0:09:31 > 0:09:34putting out figures which they can't meet.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36Julia... I'll come to you, Darrel, in a moment. Julia.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39Before I get to the substance, can I question, Diane,
0:09:39 > 0:09:41whether you did want us to have a referendum?
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Because in 2011 you voted against having a referendum
0:09:43 > 0:09:46because you don't think the British people should have a say.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48- Is that not right?- No.- Are you sure?
0:09:49 > 0:09:54The problem I have is we've got two politicians here, Diane Abbott
0:09:54 > 0:09:56- who was...- Can I answer your question?
0:09:56 > 0:09:59- Can I answer your question?- No. - You did ask it.- Yeah.- Be brief.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02I have always argued, inside the party,
0:10:02 > 0:10:04that we should come out for a referendum.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06That's always been my position.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08You voted against a referendum in 2011.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11- I'm a loyal party member, what can I do?- You voted against...
0:10:11 > 0:10:14Anyway. OK, we've got two politicians, Diane Abbott,
0:10:14 > 0:10:17who was a member of the Labour Party
0:10:17 > 0:10:19which basically had an open immigration policy with
0:10:19 > 0:10:22the rest of Europe without ever asking the British people
0:10:22 > 0:10:24for consent, and Liz Truss,
0:10:24 > 0:10:26who's clearly a fully paid up member of Project Fear.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29I don't know about you, I'm waiting for the plagues of locusts.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31APPLAUSE
0:10:31 > 0:10:33No-one is suggesting the choice is between an open door
0:10:33 > 0:10:38immigration policy and no-one coming here at all.
0:10:38 > 0:10:40What we should have is a policy that virtually every
0:10:40 > 0:10:42country in the world has, which is that we let in people
0:10:42 > 0:10:46that we need and want and we don't let in other people.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48It's not complicated. Hundreds of other countries manage to do it.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52- And it's very simple.- But...- No. Can I...?- No. Hold on a second.
0:10:52 > 0:10:53APPLAUSE
0:10:55 > 0:10:57To Darrel's question, do you think that can only
0:10:57 > 0:10:59be achieved by leaving the EU?
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Yeah, absolutely it can only be achieved by leaving the EU.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Certainly not the deal that David Cameron has got.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07The idea that if we want to have free trade with Europe,
0:11:07 > 0:11:10that we have to have an open door policy is absolute nonsense.
0:11:10 > 0:11:11What Norway, Switzerland or other
0:11:11 > 0:11:14smaller countries have negotiated is not the same as
0:11:14 > 0:11:16a negotiation from the fifth biggest economy in the world.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20The fact is, there is no other country that has
0:11:20 > 0:11:23full access to the single market without having
0:11:23 > 0:11:24free movement of people.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27It was the way it was set up in the first place.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32It was about free movement of goods, services, people and capital.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35- That is the whole concept of the single market.- All right...
0:11:35 > 0:11:37You're saying you can pick and choose between one element of it.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39- Yes, you can.- You can't.
0:11:39 > 0:11:44And the fact is that Europe exports 7% of its products to Britain...
0:11:44 > 0:11:48- We'll come to that.- ..and Britain exports 44% to Europe.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50We'll come to that. You keep saying, "the fact is".
0:11:50 > 0:11:53We'll come to what you think the facts are, but I want to go back to
0:11:53 > 0:11:55the questioner before I come to Giles.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58Darrel, what do you make of what you have heard so far?
0:11:58 > 0:12:00I can only go from my own experiences.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03I work in the private rented sector and I deal with letting agents.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06One of the reason as to why rents are so high is
0:12:06 > 0:12:10because of migration into places like Diane's Hackney,
0:12:10 > 0:12:13where she complains about the cost of renting.
0:12:13 > 0:12:17One of the reasons is that the demand is so high and we do not have
0:12:17 > 0:12:19the resources to deal with it, so we need to be doing something
0:12:19 > 0:12:22- moving forward.- And leaving the EU is your view?
0:12:22 > 0:12:25It is one of the things that we can control, in addition to others
0:12:25 > 0:12:27but I certainly believe that we should leave the EU.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31- Giles Fraser, your turn.- I want to disrupt the link that you've
0:12:31 > 0:12:35made, because I'm in favour of leaving the EU.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37I'm a keen Brexiter.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41I would have us have more immigration into this country
0:12:41 > 0:12:44and not less. And that is not a popular view.
0:12:44 > 0:12:48And the reason is at the moment because there is a humanitarian
0:12:48 > 0:12:51crisis in the Middle East.
0:12:51 > 0:12:52APPLAUSE
0:12:54 > 0:12:58And it's not just about whether we need doctors and
0:12:58 > 0:13:01engineers and professional people and what would be
0:13:01 > 0:13:04in our advantage, and whether rents would go up and go down.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06There are people in
0:13:06 > 0:13:11places like Aleppo and in Syria, who are having barrel bombs
0:13:11 > 0:13:14dropped on them, they're fleeing for their lives.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16You and your family, me and my family, I'd be fleeing for
0:13:16 > 0:13:19my life, and I would want there to be
0:13:19 > 0:13:21a country that had the humanitarian principles
0:13:21 > 0:13:24that at a time like this would open their doors.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Yes, it might be difficult for us. It might be.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30But for me, there is a basic Christian principle about
0:13:30 > 0:13:32welcoming the stranger in need, and at this time
0:13:32 > 0:13:36I would want us to be generous, and probably more
0:13:36 > 0:13:41generous than we feel comfortable, in order to accept
0:13:41 > 0:13:44people who are fleeing for their lives.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46Giles...
0:13:46 > 0:13:48APPLAUSE
0:13:49 > 0:13:53You make the point about Syria, but if you exclude Syria from
0:13:53 > 0:13:56the argument, if you exclude the millions of people
0:13:56 > 0:13:59who have left Syria for Turkey and wherever,
0:13:59 > 0:14:03On the general point that Darrel's making about immigration
0:14:03 > 0:14:07from the European countries, you say you want to get out of the EU.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10They would then not have automatic access here
0:14:10 > 0:14:12and you would approve of that?
0:14:12 > 0:14:16The truth of the matter is, if we came out of the European Union
0:14:16 > 0:14:18it would mean perhaps that we would have
0:14:18 > 0:14:20greater control over our borders.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23It does not mean we would close our borders, necessarily,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25it means we have greater control over them.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27It could be that we would be generous
0:14:27 > 0:14:30with our immigration policy.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35For me, the whole reason that I think it is right for us to
0:14:35 > 0:14:40come out of the European Union is a basic principle of democracy,
0:14:40 > 0:14:44is that we should be in charge of our own future.
0:14:44 > 0:14:48And that we elect these politicians on our behalf,
0:14:48 > 0:14:53and it is not for them to give that power away to someone else.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55They must return it to us
0:14:55 > 0:14:58when the election comes round again, undiminished.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01And they shouldn't give away what is not theirs to give.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04So it's a basic principle of democracy.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06APPLAUSE
0:15:07 > 0:15:09Can I just say one more thing?
0:15:09 > 0:15:13This debate is going to be very narrow and very nasty
0:15:13 > 0:15:15if we make the debate about Europe,
0:15:15 > 0:15:19a once-in-a-lifetime debate, simply about immigration.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22- That would be a huge mistake. - All right.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24APPLAUSE
0:15:25 > 0:15:26You, sir, at the back.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30We're going to move on to another aspect of it because I'm aware
0:15:30 > 0:15:32that everybody's minds are focused
0:15:32 > 0:15:34at the moment, because of this June 23rd vote,
0:15:34 > 0:15:36on all the aspects of the EU.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39You, sir. We'll move on to the thing about trade in a moment. Yes.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44I think Britain's been very generous towards immigration over the years.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47For years and years and years. And I hope
0:15:47 > 0:15:50we will be, to some extent.
0:15:50 > 0:15:51But, the gentleman and Diane,
0:15:51 > 0:15:54where are these people going to live?
0:15:54 > 0:15:57You know. On the streets?
0:15:57 > 0:16:03There's going to be more crime. There has to be another way.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07We cannot keep getting flooded and flooded with immigrants.
0:16:07 > 0:16:13Where's the infrastructure coming from? Where are they going to live?
0:16:13 > 0:16:17- It will be like a ghetto. - Oh! That is outrageous, look...
0:16:17 > 0:16:20- Can I...?- You go.- I say that as the son of a Polish immigrant
0:16:20 > 0:16:22and very proud of it, too.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27Can I just say, this narrative, which suggests that immigrants
0:16:27 > 0:16:31are a dead weight on the economy, that they contribute nothing, that
0:16:31 > 0:16:35- they are just a huge problem... - I didn't say that.- No, let me...
0:16:35 > 0:16:39The country cannot be swamped. It is logic.
0:16:39 > 0:16:44Without immigration, from the Second World War onwards,
0:16:44 > 0:16:48we wouldn't have the National Health Service we have today.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50I know, I wouldn't be here!
0:16:50 > 0:16:53I don't think anyone is suggesting no immigration...
0:16:53 > 0:16:57- No, no, I'm talking about the narrative.- We can't keep on...
0:16:57 > 0:17:00It's a negative narrative and, in the end, it gets us nowhere.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04What do you say to what Giles Fraser said about allowing many more people
0:17:04 > 0:17:07in and being much more generous to people from Syria who are refugees,
0:17:07 > 0:17:09who aren't people coming from Poland like his father,
0:17:09 > 0:17:11but are people from the Middle East?
0:17:11 > 0:17:15I visited, in the past few weeks, the refugee camp
0:17:15 > 0:17:17at Calais and I visited Lesbos,
0:17:17 > 0:17:21where Syrian refugees were also coming into,
0:17:21 > 0:17:24and the conditions in Calais are disgusting.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28- They are inhumane.- ..let them come over to the UK - you are
0:17:28 > 0:17:30- just spreading the problem. - I certainly...- It is all
0:17:30 > 0:17:34very well saying, yes, we can have an open-door policy...
0:17:34 > 0:17:37- I do... - Let her answer the question.
0:17:37 > 0:17:45I don't think that we are taking our fair share of Syrian refugees.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49APPLAUSE
0:17:49 > 0:17:53These are people in desperate circumstances,
0:17:53 > 0:17:56being exploited by people traffickers.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00I think we should step up and take a fair share.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03- That's the human argument. - Liz Truss?
0:18:03 > 0:18:07It is much better to take the approach we are taking,
0:18:07 > 0:18:12which is to have a comprehensive solution that helps people nearer
0:18:12 > 0:18:17their home rather than attracting people to Europe into the arms of
0:18:17 > 0:18:22the people traffickers who are killing people day after day.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24I think it is a huge problem,
0:18:24 > 0:18:28if we attract more migrants, refugees to Europe.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32- What will you do about the people in Europe?- We are the second
0:18:32 > 0:18:34biggest bilateral donor in Syria.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38We are helping sort out the problem at source, give people homes and
0:18:38 > 0:18:42- make sure that they have a sustainable future...- Sorry, give
0:18:42 > 0:18:47- people homes? What homes are we giving people?- We are giving them...
0:18:47 > 0:18:49- Tents.- Tents.- ..accommodation close to Syria,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52close to their homes, rather than them taking
0:18:52 > 0:18:57a perilous journey, falling into the arms of the people traffickers
0:18:57 > 0:19:01and then failing to accommodate those people in Europe.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04- All right.- We are taking 20,000 refugees but we are doing it in an
0:19:04 > 0:19:09organised and systematic way so people are properly accommodated
0:19:09 > 0:19:11here in the UK, and that is the right approach.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14Can I say, if Diane wants to help the Syrian refugees, why didn't you
0:19:14 > 0:19:17support military action against Assad and Syria...Isis?
0:19:17 > 0:19:22Do you really think that bombing Syria would have helped anything?
0:19:22 > 0:19:24I think bombing Assad's forces would help, yes.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26The woman in the fifth row?
0:19:26 > 0:19:30I think my view is that a group of my friends, who are all nurses, have
0:19:30 > 0:19:33been raising money for a couple of weeks and they
0:19:33 > 0:19:36will go over to Calais this weekend to the camps, where they will
0:19:36 > 0:19:40take with them sleeping bags, torches, medical supplies,
0:19:40 > 0:19:42and they have done that with their own money.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45A lot of us have sponsored them to do it. It is not just a case of who
0:19:45 > 0:19:49is coming in, it's the fact we are turning a blind eye to these people
0:19:49 > 0:19:52in need and we are not going out to help anyone with the exception of
0:19:52 > 0:19:55sending warplanes over to bomb Syria.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56Hear, hear.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58APPLAUSE
0:19:58 > 0:20:01OK. You, in blue, the man in blue?
0:20:01 > 0:20:03I think the argument has got a little bit more towards
0:20:03 > 0:20:07immigration. I think we, the British public, are quite selfish.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11We love all the benefits of the EU without any of the disadvantages.
0:20:11 > 0:20:16Let's face it, it is more about - it is more than just immigration.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20Let's not forget, any of us, at any time, can go to any of these
0:20:20 > 0:20:23countries and live there. We have many UK nationals out...
0:20:23 > 0:20:25Absolutely right.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29What happens to all those people when we close our borders?
0:20:29 > 0:20:31All right. We will go on to
0:20:31 > 0:20:34the wider aspect of jobs and the economy. Margaret Malt has a
0:20:34 > 0:20:38question. Let's stick with Europe for the moment, Margaret Malt.
0:20:38 > 0:20:43If we leave the EU, would there be job losses
0:20:43 > 0:20:45and would EU trading be affected?
0:20:45 > 0:20:49- Julia Hartley-Brewer? - Well, we have heard talk
0:20:49 > 0:20:53of three million job losses and a complete
0:20:53 > 0:20:57closing down of all trade from the Project Fear brigade.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59Absolute loads of codswallop. It...
0:20:59 > 0:21:02APPLAUSE
0:21:05 > 0:21:08I, genuinely, I was a political editor for many years,
0:21:08 > 0:21:12and I have honestly never heard more nonsense talked about on any subject
0:21:12 > 0:21:15ever in my time as a political journalist.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18I very much agree with Giles on the issue of sovereignty and democracy,
0:21:18 > 0:21:21but I know that when it comes to voting on June 23rd, most of us will
0:21:21 > 0:21:22be concerned about security
0:21:22 > 0:21:25and also the economy, and are our jobs safe,
0:21:25 > 0:21:27is our trade going to be safe?
0:21:27 > 0:21:31We had lots of nonsense coming out last week, with letters
0:21:31 > 0:21:35from FTSE 100 Chief Executives, 36 signed a letter saying
0:21:35 > 0:21:38the perils of leaving the EU.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Of course, two-thirds of FTSE 100 Chief Executives chose
0:21:41 > 0:21:44not to sign the letter, and a small point,
0:21:44 > 0:21:4915 of the 36 have received EU funding and eight of the 36
0:21:49 > 0:21:54in 2003 warned of the perils of not joining the EU and
0:21:54 > 0:21:57how our economy would collapse. How's that working out?
0:21:57 > 0:22:00What do you think would happen, Julia, if the vote was Brexit?
0:22:00 > 0:22:01How long would it take?
0:22:01 > 0:22:04- You've seen the figures about sterling falling.- Yep.
0:22:04 > 0:22:08In the Financial Times today, it says it will be a difficult
0:22:08 > 0:22:11- two-year period, do you agree with that?- I think it will be a
0:22:11 > 0:22:14difficult period, but no more difficult than any democracy when
0:22:14 > 0:22:16they have a vote and make a decision to do something new.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19The reality is we are not Norway, not Switzerland, not Canada,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22we are the fifth biggest economy in the world. We will be
0:22:22 > 0:22:23able to negotiate a deal.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27If you seriously think that the French and the Germans will go,
0:22:27 > 0:22:29"Right, you have knifed us in the back, we are off, we don't
0:22:29 > 0:22:32"care any more," and Mercedes and BMW won't be in Angela Merkel's
0:22:32 > 0:22:34office the next day saying,
0:22:34 > 0:22:37"Are you insane? Britain is one of our biggest markets."
0:22:37 > 0:22:41They need to trade with us as much as we need to trade with them.
0:22:41 > 0:22:46They are not going to do us over. One final point...
0:22:48 > 0:22:52David Cameron's argument seems to be that they will knife us in the back,
0:22:52 > 0:22:55they will turn us over if we do that.
0:22:55 > 0:22:57That's the same argument you give to a battered wife
0:22:57 > 0:22:59in a domestic abusive relationship.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02Go back to your violent husband, or he might hurt you even more.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05If they are our friend, they will want to trade with us.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08Actually, what the Foreign Secretary
0:23:08 > 0:23:12said was that a Leave vote would be seen as two fingers to Europe
0:23:12 > 0:23:16and they would give two fingers back to us and therefore...
0:23:16 > 0:23:19And they don't want to sell us any cars, they don't want to
0:23:19 > 0:23:22sell anything to us? 16% of goods and services sold by the EU are sold
0:23:22 > 0:23:25- to the British people. - Ask Liz Truss.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I think Britain is a great country, a fantastic country.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32Of course we could do well if we were outside the EU. I think the
0:23:32 > 0:23:37question is, how much better can we do by staying in the EU
0:23:37 > 0:23:41and continuing to take advantage of full access
0:23:41 > 0:23:46to the single market? No other country has full access to goods and
0:23:46 > 0:23:50services without being part of free movement,
0:23:50 > 0:23:55without accepting those regulations and making sure that we
0:23:55 > 0:23:59share the rules and the system of Europe.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03Now, if people do want to leave, and I think it is a perfectly
0:24:03 > 0:24:07respectable point of view, I think they have to say what
0:24:07 > 0:24:10the alternative would look like and what the model would look like.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13The fact is, there is a process, a two-year process,
0:24:13 > 0:24:16where we will be in limbo as a country, we will be in a
0:24:16 > 0:24:19twilight zone, where we are looking
0:24:19 > 0:24:22at what the future options might look like,
0:24:22 > 0:24:26- we...- That is not very long. - It could be longer than two years.
0:24:26 > 0:24:31We know how long it does take to reach decisions in the EU.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35- That is an argument for the EU, is it?- Well...
0:24:35 > 0:24:37- It is not just... - Laughable! Laughable!
0:24:37 > 0:24:39It's not just the EU...
0:24:40 > 0:24:44So, let me give you one example from Defra.
0:24:44 > 0:24:49We are still negotiating to open up the US market to British beef,
0:24:49 > 0:24:5320 years after that market was closed due to BSE.
0:24:53 > 0:24:56That is how long trade negotiations take.
0:24:56 > 0:24:58So, what do you think would happen?
0:24:58 > 0:25:02We have 53 agreements with different countries around the world through
0:25:02 > 0:25:06the EU. Those would have to be renegotiated, the single
0:25:06 > 0:25:10- market access would have to be renegotiated.- People know that
0:25:10 > 0:25:13because you've said that and everybody has said that. What do you
0:25:13 > 0:25:16think the damage of that would be? That's what's interesting.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19How much will unemployment go up by? How much would trade fall by?
0:25:19 > 0:25:22How much would sterling fall by? Have you done an assessment of
0:25:22 > 0:25:25that when you come to defence of the government position?
0:25:25 > 0:25:27The Government will be producing an assessment...
0:25:27 > 0:25:29You haven't got it yet?
0:25:29 > 0:25:32Not yet. There will be an economic analysis.
0:25:32 > 0:25:36But not only will we spend our time trying to disentangle ourselves
0:25:36 > 0:25:39from these arrangements with the EU, think of
0:25:39 > 0:25:41all the stuff we could be doing instead. Think of what is
0:25:41 > 0:25:45really important in terms of improving our country, raising our
0:25:45 > 0:25:49productivity, reforming our welfare system, making sure our schools
0:25:49 > 0:25:52are better, thinking about the Health Service. We will have the
0:25:52 > 0:25:55entire Government machine tied up with disentangling ourselves from
0:25:55 > 0:26:00- Europe, possibly never to get a better solution anyway.- All right.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04If you think four months is long to talk about this, imagine what five
0:26:04 > 0:26:07- or ten years talking about this... - So we shouldn't have had
0:26:07 > 0:26:09- a referendum at all?- I think it is
0:26:09 > 0:26:13right that people decide, but I know what I think is right for Britain.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15Giles Fraser.
0:26:15 > 0:26:20So, people say economically, it will be a leap into the dark.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24We pay 50 million a day to the EU.
0:26:24 > 0:26:30We get some of it back, of course, when they let us, in the way
0:26:30 > 0:26:32they want, but in effect...
0:26:32 > 0:26:37Sorry. Let's hit this thing on the head of 50 million. The National
0:26:37 > 0:26:41- Audit Office figure is £15 million net of what is given back.- Hang on,
0:26:41 > 0:26:45- I'm coming on to that.- Yes, but this quote of 50 million, it is
0:26:45 > 0:26:48easy on the ear, but it is not accurate, is it?
0:26:48 > 0:26:54So... We are down £11 billion a year for being in
0:26:54 > 0:26:59- Europe.- It doesn't help your case to quote £50 billion when
0:26:59 > 0:27:01- it is not the right figure. - It's 7 billion.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04So we give it out and we get some back, which is
0:27:04 > 0:27:06exactly what I said to start with.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09But the point I'm trying to make is, that I think we would be,
0:27:09 > 0:27:13we would be a net beneficiary financially of coming out and that
0:27:13 > 0:27:17in itself is not a leap into the dark, that seems to be a leap into
0:27:17 > 0:27:20what I understand to be - I won't bandy figures -
0:27:20 > 0:27:24£11 billion-plus. That seems to be a pretty good leap into the dark...
0:27:24 > 0:27:29- This compares...- Hang on. I'm happy to accept, let me concede the point,
0:27:29 > 0:27:32I'm happy to accept I might be wrong about the figures.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34I'm not bandying figures about, that's boring.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37- Even if...- You were bandying them around.
0:27:37 > 0:27:38That's what you were doing!
0:27:38 > 0:27:41So, even if we are poorer, I think
0:27:41 > 0:27:46democracy is not for sale. That is a fundamental point. Even if we
0:27:46 > 0:27:50are a bit poorer, and the economic stuff that is going on in Europe,
0:27:50 > 0:27:55for me the crucial stuff, how the Greek people were treated in their
0:27:55 > 0:27:58financial crisis by the Europeans, how...
0:27:58 > 0:28:02APPLAUSE
0:28:02 > 0:28:05Shamelessly. How trade deals are being negotiated - TTIP -
0:28:05 > 0:28:07in our name without us knowing
0:28:07 > 0:28:11a single thing about what is going on.
0:28:11 > 0:28:15This is the problem economically.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18I don't want to nickel and dime over whether we will be a bit
0:28:18 > 0:28:20poorer or richer, personally,
0:28:20 > 0:28:22I don't think democracy is for sale, we should come out.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26OK. Let's hear from the audience. You, sir, in the front row?
0:28:28 > 0:28:31Unemployment is at a record low and the economy is one of
0:28:31 > 0:28:33the best performing in Europe.
0:28:33 > 0:28:37- Is that because of Europe or despite Europe?- Diane Abbott?
0:28:37 > 0:28:41One of the... It is partly because of Europe.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45One of the strongest arguments for
0:28:45 > 0:28:49voting to stay in the EU is what coming out of
0:28:49 > 0:28:52the EU would do to jobs and the economy.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55That's why the Labour Party and all of the trade unions
0:28:55 > 0:28:58are in favour of staying in. Julia...
0:28:58 > 0:29:01Not all of the trade unions.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04ASLEF and RMT are not in favour.
0:29:04 > 0:29:08They are not manufacturing unions. My point is this.
0:29:08 > 0:29:10They will continue to sell to us,
0:29:10 > 0:29:15but our ability to sell to Europe could be
0:29:15 > 0:29:20fatally hampered by tariffs and a tariff war.
0:29:20 > 0:29:24The other point is this. There is a great deal of manufacturing
0:29:24 > 0:29:28in this country, car manufacturers to begin with.
0:29:28 > 0:29:32Those manufacturers from Japan and so on are only here
0:29:32 > 0:29:36because we are within the EU. There are financial services
0:29:36 > 0:29:39companies that are only in London because we are within the EU.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41I think there are two problems.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44One - our goods would face a tariff fall,
0:29:44 > 0:29:48and the other - that bit by bit, the headquarters of firms that have
0:29:48 > 0:29:53only come here because we're in the EU would relocate to the Continent.
0:29:53 > 0:29:54Julian, I'm going to come to you,
0:29:54 > 0:29:57but I'd like to hear from some members of the audience before I do.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59The woman over there, and then
0:29:59 > 0:30:01I'll come to you, sir, in the pink shirt. Yes?
0:30:01 > 0:30:03It's OK with the EU market,
0:30:03 > 0:30:06but surely our biggest price we have to pay is our safety.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08We've been letting in terrorists willy-nilly
0:30:08 > 0:30:10without actually checking them through,
0:30:10 > 0:30:12so what's the excuse? That's what I want to know.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15- So, terrorism is what do you think is the major issue?- Yeah, it is.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18Because our safety... It's all right staying in the EU market,
0:30:18 > 0:30:21but how many are we letting through through the EU?
0:30:21 > 0:30:24OK, and you, sir, in the pink shirt.
0:30:24 > 0:30:25There are many people that trade
0:30:25 > 0:30:28with the EU that are not in the EU. Countries like China.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32- Yes. Funnily enough. - They pay tariffs.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37We don't have to be in the EU to trade with the EU.
0:30:37 > 0:30:39But they have to pay tariffs.
0:30:39 > 0:30:42But you would have to pay a higher tariff.
0:30:42 > 0:30:44And they don't have access to the services market,
0:30:44 > 0:30:46which is really important.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48Two thirds of our economy is services,
0:30:48 > 0:30:51and they don't have access to that.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54Isn't it amazing that only four of the G20 countries are in the EU,
0:30:54 > 0:30:58and yet somehow manage to survive. I wonder how they do that?
0:30:59 > 0:31:05The man there. Yes, you, sir, with the brown pullover on.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08You all keep saying that the referendum...
0:31:08 > 0:31:11There needs to be a referendum because the people need to decide.
0:31:11 > 0:31:13But I was just wondering,
0:31:13 > 0:31:16with everyone throwing these facts around like 50 billion figure
0:31:16 > 0:31:18for political point scoring,
0:31:18 > 0:31:20how are the British people supposed to decide
0:31:20 > 0:31:23when they haven't got the right information?
0:31:23 > 0:31:26Well, and it goes to the heart of it,
0:31:26 > 0:31:29because a lot of people say give us the facts,
0:31:29 > 0:31:33tell us what the consequences of one thing or the other would be.
0:31:33 > 0:31:35Julian Fellowes, how do you think people should survive?
0:31:35 > 0:31:36I'll come to you later.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38I don't really think whether
0:31:38 > 0:31:42we should stay in or get out is a financial argument.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45I agree that it is a complete fantasy to think that
0:31:45 > 0:31:47the car manufacturers of Germany
0:31:47 > 0:31:50and the wine growers of France are suddenly going to
0:31:50 > 0:31:52turn their back on one of their best markets
0:31:52 > 0:31:55because we're supposed to have made a V sign at them.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57I've worked all my life in a business
0:31:57 > 0:31:59where everyone makes a V sign at you every morning
0:31:59 > 0:32:02and you then get on with the business at hand.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04It is just nonsense to think that.
0:32:04 > 0:32:08We also will have unfettered access to all sorts of other world markets
0:32:08 > 0:32:11and expand in different ways.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14I would be very surprised if there was really
0:32:14 > 0:32:16much difference in it at all.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18I love being European. I love Europe.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21I think it's great, and I think if we do come out,
0:32:21 > 0:32:24the first thing we should do is try to make as good arrangements
0:32:24 > 0:32:28with everyone, be pals with everyone, set up everything.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30I've been told, "We'll pay almost as much money
0:32:30 > 0:32:32"if we want to go on trading."
0:32:32 > 0:32:36Well, let's do the sums, and if they work let's pay it. That's all fine.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39But we won't have to live under rules
0:32:39 > 0:32:42- we have not wanted or asked for or voted for.- Hear, hear.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52Yes. The woman in the very back there.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54Yeah, I'm as confused as anybody here.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57I agree with the young girl over there.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02I just can't make my mind up whether we stay in Europe or whether we go.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04Where's this assessment coming from, Liz?
0:33:04 > 0:33:07When are we going to see it so that we can make this informed decision?
0:33:07 > 0:33:09Is it going to be a week before the referendum?
0:33:09 > 0:33:12- A week after? - The week after?
0:33:14 > 0:33:17There is going to be an assessment produced
0:33:17 > 0:33:20and also a look at the alternative models.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23And that will be produced fairly shortly.
0:33:23 > 0:33:28But I think it is clear that if you look at the exit process,
0:33:28 > 0:33:31there will be two years of uncertainty,
0:33:31 > 0:33:36and if you look at the access to the European single market,
0:33:36 > 0:33:40including services, which represents two thirds of the UK economy,
0:33:40 > 0:33:44no other country has access to that market without having to
0:33:44 > 0:33:47follow the rules, and we are part of making rules.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49I know some of the rules are frustrating.
0:33:49 > 0:33:50I couldn't agree with you more, Julian.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53As Defra Secretary, I have to deal with them every day.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56But the fact is, if we want export our lamb to Europe,
0:33:56 > 0:34:00and we export 38% of all the lamb we produce to Europe,
0:34:00 > 0:34:03we will have to follow those rules anyway. And that is the problem.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06You know, the question is, do we be part of it
0:34:06 > 0:34:09and help come up with the rules,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12or do we have to follow the rules anyway because it is our closest
0:34:12 > 0:34:16market to us, we are geographically located next to Europe?
0:34:16 > 0:34:19Just come back to this assessment thing you keep talking about
0:34:19 > 0:34:23that's going to come out, for some reason isn't ready yet.
0:34:23 > 0:34:24But it is going to come out.
0:34:24 > 0:34:28Given that the Government has said that civil servants can't
0:34:28 > 0:34:31brief people who are against staying in the EU,
0:34:31 > 0:34:34can only brief ministers who are in favour,
0:34:34 > 0:34:37is anybody going to trust this assessment?
0:34:37 > 0:34:39The Government is parti pris. The Prime Minister has said
0:34:39 > 0:34:42they are going to stay in. APPLAUSE
0:34:42 > 0:34:49David, we have an impartial civil service, which is responsible...
0:34:49 > 0:34:52Why aren't they allowed to advise the people who want to exit?
0:34:52 > 0:34:55They are able to provide facts,
0:34:55 > 0:34:58they are able to provide facts to all ministers,
0:34:58 > 0:35:02regardless of whether those ministers have taken the decision
0:35:02 > 0:35:05that they want to leave the official Government position and leave.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07- No, they are not. - They are able to provide facts.
0:35:07 > 0:35:11But Heywood specifically forbade giving information to people
0:35:11 > 0:35:13who were in favour of coming out.
0:35:13 > 0:35:15I mean, that is what we are told in the papers, anyway.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17I can assure you, Julian,
0:35:17 > 0:35:20in Defra we have ministers of both sets of opinions,
0:35:20 > 0:35:24and all ministers are provided with the facts by the civil servants,
0:35:24 > 0:35:27and civil servants are impartial.
0:35:27 > 0:35:29They are not allowed to take sides in this debate.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31Does that include the civil servant who wrote to
0:35:31 > 0:35:33the FTSE 100 companies asking them
0:35:33 > 0:35:35to sign that letter supporting staying in?
0:35:35 > 0:35:38LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:35:38 > 0:35:41- I think...- Yes, you.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45My major concern here is we've got two politicians on the panel
0:35:45 > 0:35:48and we've got our politicians...
0:35:48 > 0:35:51We voted for them,
0:35:51 > 0:35:55and yet they want to be subservient to the European Union.
0:35:55 > 0:36:02And I'm just concerned that they are second-rate politicians
0:36:02 > 0:36:04being lorded over by the European Parliament.
0:36:04 > 0:36:09- That's a bit harsh!- Can I say - we live in an interconnected world.
0:36:09 > 0:36:14We are members of Nato, we are members of the WTO, we are
0:36:14 > 0:36:15members of the European Union.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18We have to work with other countries to get things done.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20We do not invite second-rate politicians
0:36:20 > 0:36:22onto the Question Time panel.
0:36:22 > 0:36:27- We only invite...- Thanks, David. - We only invite the first rank.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29You're being dictated to by the European Parliament.
0:36:29 > 0:36:30You may disagree with them,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33but they are the first rank of politicians that are on offer.
0:36:33 > 0:36:35LAUGHTER I put that caveat in.
0:36:35 > 0:36:37Why aren't they fighting for us, then,
0:36:37 > 0:36:39against the European Parliament?
0:36:39 > 0:36:41But the question is, do we stay in Europe
0:36:41 > 0:36:44and fight for the rules that we want, or do we leave it...
0:36:44 > 0:36:45But you are not! You're not doing it.
0:36:45 > 0:36:47..and end up having to follow those rules
0:36:47 > 0:36:49because we want to do trade with that market?
0:36:49 > 0:36:51You can still trade with it.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53We're members of organisations like Nato, the WTO -
0:36:53 > 0:36:56we have to work with other countries to get things done.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59That's what politics is about.
0:36:59 > 0:37:03I must say, my favourite part of Project Fear is that we should all
0:37:03 > 0:37:08vote to stay in because otherwise we won't get cheap flights.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12The idea that whether or not you can fly on Queasy Jet should
0:37:12 > 0:37:16decide the future of this country is rather extraordinary to me.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18The woman in blue, there. You.
0:37:18 > 0:37:20Am I the only person here who has
0:37:20 > 0:37:24a member of the economic Parliament... European Parliament?
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Cos we do have people who represent us in Europe.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30They haven't just made decisions about us.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34We have actually voted for people who represent us in Europe.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37Those powers have been given away by our politicians to other
0:37:37 > 0:37:40politicians in other countries and unelected bureaucrats.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43Are you telling me they don't represent our views from Britain?
0:37:43 > 0:37:45Are you telling me that the people that we pay for
0:37:45 > 0:37:47to represent us in Europe,
0:37:47 > 0:37:49that they are not representing our views?
0:37:49 > 0:37:51Well, then, let's put them up to account,
0:37:51 > 0:37:54cos if I was a teacher not doing my job, I'd be out of a job.
0:37:54 > 0:37:58- Julia?- The point is that we have only a tiny say of what
0:37:58 > 0:38:01happens in the European Parliament and a tiny say of what
0:38:01 > 0:38:03happens in the European Council and European Commission.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06- And we are repeatedly voted down. I think 70 cases...- 72.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09- 72 since 2010 where David Cameron has...- We lost 72.
0:38:09 > 0:38:11Yes, we lost all 72. The reality is...
0:38:11 > 0:38:14Of course we have to compromise, of course we have to do deals,
0:38:14 > 0:38:17and we do that in Nato, we do that with the World Trade Organisation,
0:38:17 > 0:38:18we do that with lots of bodies.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21We don't give away our sovereignty to do so.
0:38:21 > 0:38:25Can I just...? Can I ask whether...?
0:38:25 > 0:38:29Can I just ask a question? I know this is a political audience,
0:38:29 > 0:38:32but I'd love to know how many people here know the name of their MEP.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34How many people here know the name of their MEP?
0:38:34 > 0:38:38- If they don't know... I'm not going to test them all.- Really?
0:38:38 > 0:38:40That's actually rather important.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42- You don't know, David. You don't know their names.- All right.
0:38:42 > 0:38:44Just hands up if you know the name of your MEP.
0:38:44 > 0:38:47- You do, sir. Who is he or she? - Clare Moody.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50- Right, what area is that? - MEP for the South West.
0:38:50 > 0:38:52We've got about 20 hands up in the whole big audience.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55- That really says something. - Let's go onto another question.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58We won't leave the EU for the moment.
0:38:58 > 0:39:01But just before we go to it, since we've been 40 minutes on this,
0:39:01 > 0:39:04a reminder about where we're going to be next week.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07We are in Liverpool. And the week after that, we are in Dundee.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10And you can apply either by telephone or to our website.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12Let's go to the harsh politics of this,
0:39:12 > 0:39:15and have this question from Harrison Taylor, please.
0:39:15 > 0:39:20Will Boris Johnson be a vote winner in the EU referendum?
0:39:20 > 0:39:23Will Boris Johnson, who has come out as an Out,
0:39:23 > 0:39:25will he... Is he persuasive? Giles Fraser?
0:39:25 > 0:39:28I did actually think when the Prime Minister
0:39:28 > 0:39:30was having a go at Jeremy Corbyn
0:39:30 > 0:39:33for doing up his tie and putting his jacket on,
0:39:33 > 0:39:35I half thought for a minute he was actually having
0:39:35 > 0:39:40a go at Boris about that, and not just Jeremy Corbyn.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44I imagine Boris sings the national anthem,
0:39:44 > 0:39:47- which was the last part of the barb against Corbyn.- Here's the thing.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50I quite like the fact we are having a debate about this,
0:39:50 > 0:39:52that the Tories are having a debate about this.
0:39:52 > 0:39:56I quite like the fact that you're having unusual alliances
0:39:56 > 0:39:59and that actually, there's a proper debate going on.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01I actually wish there was more
0:40:01 > 0:40:03of a debate in the Labour Party about this going on.
0:40:03 > 0:40:06I think the Labour Party are slightly absent from the field.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08APPLAUSE
0:40:08 > 0:40:12And I wish they would get stuck in more.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15And I quite like the fact that you have a Boris
0:40:15 > 0:40:18and the others arguing with each other.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21I think that is just what we want in our democracy,
0:40:21 > 0:40:25having a proper debate where there aren't any obvious sides any more.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27This is too important an issue
0:40:27 > 0:40:30for it to become one of those tribal playpen issues.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33So really, really good that we have all different people arguing
0:40:33 > 0:40:37with each other, a kaleidoscope which is being shaken up,
0:40:37 > 0:40:42and I think we should all think afresh and anew about this subject.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44And it is really good to see
0:40:44 > 0:40:47politicians breaking the mould about where they stand.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49Why do you think Labour is not arguing about it
0:40:49 > 0:40:52in the way that you would like?
0:40:52 > 0:40:56The Labour Party used to have a good tradition of Euroscepticism,
0:40:56 > 0:41:01with heroes of mine like Tony Benn, and I think probably through
0:41:01 > 0:41:06the Tony Blair period onwards that got squashed out of them.
0:41:06 > 0:41:10And now I suspect Mr Corbyn, in his heart of hearts,
0:41:10 > 0:41:13is very ambivalent about Europe.
0:41:13 > 0:41:17I suspect Diane is secretly pretty ambivalent about Europe, really.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20But they are not really allowed to say so.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23She is smiling a very saturnine kind of smile here beside you.
0:41:23 > 0:41:25And I wish they'd say so more.
0:41:25 > 0:41:29Can we just unleash the Labour Party to have a proper debate on this?
0:41:29 > 0:41:31APPLAUSE
0:41:31 > 0:41:33Diane?
0:41:33 > 0:41:36You have the freedom of the airwaves offered you by Giles
0:41:36 > 0:41:38to unleash your inner self.
0:41:38 > 0:41:43That's very tempting, Giles, but not this minute.
0:41:43 > 0:41:47I sincerely hope this referendum isn't decided as to whether
0:41:47 > 0:41:50people like Boris or not,
0:41:50 > 0:41:54just as I hope that we don't confuse the issue of Europe with
0:41:54 > 0:41:55the issue of the immigration,
0:41:55 > 0:41:58because Julian made a very good point that some of the people that
0:41:58 > 0:42:01many people regard as immigrants are not from Europe at all.
0:42:01 > 0:42:02Just as I hope...
0:42:02 > 0:42:05Somebody said, a couple of people said, and they were right,
0:42:05 > 0:42:07figures, going backwards and forwards...
0:42:07 > 0:42:11I think we need a debate on first principles.
0:42:11 > 0:42:16And one of the principles is that this is 2015...
0:42:16 > 0:42:1716!
0:42:17 > 0:42:21LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:42:21 > 0:42:24- One of the principles is... - Typical Labour, stuck in the past.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27Only a year.
0:42:27 > 0:42:29But my point is a real one.
0:42:29 > 0:42:34There are so many things that are issues to us now
0:42:34 > 0:42:39in the 21st century that are better addressed working with
0:42:39 > 0:42:42other European countries, whether it is climate change,
0:42:42 > 0:42:46whether it is this whole refugee crisis we are facing in Europe.
0:42:46 > 0:42:50The idea that we're going to retreat into ourselves, you know,
0:42:50 > 0:42:52in the 21st century, must be wrong.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55You talked about where the Labour Party is.
0:42:55 > 0:42:59The point to stress is the Labour Party has
0:42:59 > 0:43:02a very different vision of Europe.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05Jeremy Corbyn has a very different vision from David Cameron.
0:43:05 > 0:43:09David Cameron went and was battling to preserve bankers' bonuses.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12He was negotiating this totally fraudulent stuff
0:43:12 > 0:43:13about benefits and immigration.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16We want a Europe that is a social Europe,
0:43:16 > 0:43:20that will protect workers, protect workers' rights,
0:43:20 > 0:43:24that will fight climate change. We want a social Europe,
0:43:24 > 0:43:28but we believe that in the 21st century it must make
0:43:28 > 0:43:30more sense to come together
0:43:30 > 0:43:36with our European neighbours than to retreat into some sort of bastion.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40- Have you changed your view on this in your time in politics?- On Europe?
0:43:40 > 0:43:45- Yes.- I've always been a sceptic about the eurozone.
0:43:45 > 0:43:51- And I think I've been proved right. The problem...- About the EU.- No, no.
0:43:51 > 0:43:53I've always been pro-Europe.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56But I was always sceptical about the economic aspects of it
0:43:56 > 0:43:59cos there wasn't genuine convergence between the economies,
0:43:59 > 0:44:01and we've seen what happened to Greece.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03The woman there on the left.
0:44:03 > 0:44:05Yes, I was a little concerned about Julia saying something
0:44:05 > 0:44:09related to we will choose who we want and what we need,
0:44:09 > 0:44:13and I think that is a little bit dangerous, choosing people that way.
0:44:13 > 0:44:15But the issue with the referendum, I think it's a disgrace
0:44:15 > 0:44:19to have the Prime Minister forcing this,
0:44:19 > 0:44:22going to Brussels, demanding something that I think
0:44:22 > 0:44:26Ukip forced him into when it's not really about that.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29It's fine to have the discussion about something like this,
0:44:29 > 0:44:32but there are so many different facets of this,
0:44:32 > 0:44:36and really it is not even going to address the issue.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39And I think having a referendum costing
0:44:39 > 0:44:42so much for people to go and vote and do all the polling,
0:44:42 > 0:44:43I think it is a disgrace to spend
0:44:43 > 0:44:48so much money on an issue that really isn't a real issue.
0:44:48 > 0:44:49Why is it not a real issue?
0:44:49 > 0:44:53- It's about the Tory party! - Because it's not really about
0:44:53 > 0:44:56what he's pushing. Everyone is saying something different.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58Is it really about staying
0:44:58 > 0:45:01in Europe, or is it about being part of
0:45:01 > 0:45:03a party that believes in the same thing?
0:45:03 > 0:45:06Even his frontbenchers don't even agree or support him.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08What do you think it is about?
0:45:08 > 0:45:11I don't think it's about... I think Ukip forced him into a decision...
0:45:11 > 0:45:14The British people demanded it. Democracy costs money.
0:45:14 > 0:45:16We can have a totalitarian state and not bother.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19The British people demanded it or the Conservative Party?
0:45:19 > 0:45:21- The British people demanded it. - What was the evidence?
0:45:21 > 0:45:24It was quite clear at the time, the polling, again and again,
0:45:24 > 0:45:28the British people at the election before had been promised a referendum and were not given it.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30The British people demanded it, and it was clear that yes,
0:45:30 > 0:45:33of course, the Tories would haemorrhage votes to Ukip
0:45:33 > 0:45:35if they did not give it. That is democracy in action.
0:45:35 > 0:45:38We can have a totalitarian state and not have these expensive elections
0:45:38 > 0:45:41if you prefer, but some of us quite like the chance to vote.
0:45:41 > 0:45:42All right. Julian.
0:45:42 > 0:45:44APPLAUSE
0:45:44 > 0:45:46To, um...
0:45:47 > 0:45:51..to go back to the actual question about Boris,
0:45:51 > 0:45:54the one thing I hate about this,
0:45:54 > 0:45:58I really dislike it, is being at odds with
0:45:58 > 0:46:01the Prime Minister, a man I admire very, very much.
0:46:01 > 0:46:07I don't agree with Diane that he was footling around in his negotiations.
0:46:07 > 0:46:11I think he did extremely well and I doubt anyone could have done better.
0:46:11 > 0:46:14It is the organisation he was wrestling with
0:46:14 > 0:46:17that I have my doubts about, not about him.
0:46:17 > 0:46:19And I think, where it is helpful
0:46:19 > 0:46:23for Michael Gove, and for Boris Johnson, and so on,
0:46:23 > 0:46:25to come on to the Out team, is it allows us
0:46:25 > 0:46:29to see, this is a genuine thing where all sorts of
0:46:29 > 0:46:32people can be split, where we all have all
0:46:32 > 0:46:34political beliefs on one side and the other,
0:46:34 > 0:46:39where this is a different question to the ones normally.
0:46:39 > 0:46:41And, after it is done, after the referendum
0:46:41 > 0:46:45is finished, we must then re-bond, we must bring
0:46:45 > 0:46:47ourselves back together,
0:46:47 > 0:46:48and I think it helpful, just as
0:46:48 > 0:46:51I would find it very helpful if any of
0:46:51 > 0:46:54the Labour heavyweights would come into the Out campaign,
0:46:54 > 0:46:57then you would have a real sense of the fact
0:46:57 > 0:47:00that this is a sort of almost equal discussion
0:47:00 > 0:47:03that we have to have, so I think it is helpful.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06Whether Boris himself persuades people to join it,
0:47:06 > 0:47:09you know, obviously I hope he does because
0:47:09 > 0:47:12that's my team, but we will have to see.
0:47:12 > 0:47:16I think it makes the Out argument and the In argument feel fairly
0:47:16 > 0:47:19equally balanced, which can only be a good thing.
0:47:19 > 0:47:21- But, Julian, do you really think... - APPLAUSE
0:47:21 > 0:47:25..do you really think, that when this is over,
0:47:25 > 0:47:28- the Conservative Party will be able to re-bond?- Yes.
0:47:28 > 0:47:32- All right...- Because I know that all political parties have
0:47:32 > 0:47:35had to go through these very difficult schisms,
0:47:35 > 0:47:37and then you have to get over it.
0:47:37 > 0:47:40It's like a family. "I will never speak to you again,"
0:47:40 > 0:47:43you say as you flounce out and slam the door,
0:47:43 > 0:47:46and, sure enough, by Christmas, there you are.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48LAUGHTER
0:47:48 > 0:47:50You know. And that'll be that.
0:47:50 > 0:47:52You don't even have to wait till Christmas,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55you wait for the next episode on the following Sunday!
0:47:55 > 0:47:57Liz Truss, let's just come to sovereignty,
0:47:57 > 0:48:00which Julian has been talking about.
0:48:00 > 0:48:02Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary,
0:48:02 > 0:48:06who we know thinks the thing won't hang together legally anyway,
0:48:06 > 0:48:09said that every single day, every single minister is told,
0:48:09 > 0:48:11"Yes, Minister," you are a minister,
0:48:11 > 0:48:14"Yes, I understand that, I am afraid it is against EU rules."
0:48:14 > 0:48:18"I know, my colleagues in Government know, it happens all the time."
0:48:18 > 0:48:20When he wants sovereignty restored,
0:48:20 > 0:48:24isn't he right to say you are suffering all the time in your
0:48:24 > 0:48:27position at Defra, from rules that you don't have any...
0:48:27 > 0:48:30We have talked about whether the European Parliament has anything....
0:48:30 > 0:48:33things that you have no direct effect over?
0:48:33 > 0:48:36It does vary from government department to government department,
0:48:36 > 0:48:39so, at Education, I never experienced that.
0:48:39 > 0:48:43In my two years there, there was never a moment where EU rules
0:48:43 > 0:48:44affected what we do.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47And, actually, I think education is incredibly important
0:48:47 > 0:48:49and we have got to think about
0:48:49 > 0:48:52all the things that we do have total say over
0:48:52 > 0:48:55that would get neglected if we spent five years
0:48:55 > 0:48:59renegotiating or negotiating our exit
0:48:59 > 0:49:01from the EU. I think that is very important.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04Now, at Defra, I do have a lot more involvement with the EU...
0:49:04 > 0:49:07Just go back to education, Gove was your superior minister at Education.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10- He was, yes.- Was he right or wrong to say what he said?
0:49:10 > 0:49:12You said the opposite of what he says.
0:49:12 > 0:49:15In the particular role that I did, which was on schools and childcare,
0:49:15 > 0:49:18I didn't come across the EU in what I did.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20Did you hear Michael Gove complaining at that time
0:49:20 > 0:49:22about the way the EU interfered?
0:49:22 > 0:49:25Well, he is somebody who is very passionate about the EU,
0:49:25 > 0:49:28so of course he talks about the issue a lot.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31I think, what I would say is that when you look at
0:49:31 > 0:49:33our key domestic policies,
0:49:33 > 0:49:35what we need to do to improve productivity,
0:49:35 > 0:49:37whether it is reforming our welfare system,
0:49:37 > 0:49:41reforming our education system, our fiscal policy,
0:49:41 > 0:49:43and David Cameron has made sure we are protected
0:49:43 > 0:49:46from the eurozone in terms of our monetary policy.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48Gordon Brown did that.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50- When you look at all... - Gordon Brown was the person
0:49:50 > 0:49:52that kept us out of the eurozone.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55I do agree with Diane, that Gordon Brown did contribute to
0:49:55 > 0:49:58staying out of the euro, which was a very good thing.
0:49:58 > 0:50:02Come back to Defra, the bit you know and are working in now.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05So, Defra does have a lot of rules from the EU,
0:50:05 > 0:50:08and we are part of those discussions and negotiations...
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Irritating to you, difficult to you?
0:50:10 > 0:50:12They are irritating, and they are difficult...
0:50:12 > 0:50:14You would rather be Out, then, and have your own...
0:50:14 > 0:50:16..and we have those discussions.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19My view is, that the cost of doing that,
0:50:19 > 0:50:22the cost of being part of those regulations
0:50:22 > 0:50:24and having those discussions,
0:50:24 > 0:50:28is worth the huge benefits we have from being in that market.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31If you look at food and farming alone,
0:50:31 > 0:50:33we are getting £11 billion worth of
0:50:33 > 0:50:37business from being part of those rules.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39If you don't follow those rules, you can't trade.
0:50:39 > 0:50:41The man in the white T-shirt, there.
0:50:41 > 0:50:44While I think it is important that we have an open discussion
0:50:44 > 0:50:46concerning Britain's membership of the EU,
0:50:46 > 0:50:48I think it is equally important
0:50:48 > 0:50:50that the Government should focus on issues
0:50:50 > 0:50:52at hand in our own country,
0:50:52 > 0:50:55and I'm concerned that, perhaps, the Government might be
0:50:55 > 0:50:58- spending too much time and resources on this EU campaign.- Exactly.
0:50:58 > 0:50:59Liz, can you reassure me
0:50:59 > 0:51:01the Government will be focusing on issues over here?
0:51:01 > 0:51:04APPLAUSE
0:51:04 > 0:51:07- OK. You don't have to. - I am focused on issues,
0:51:07 > 0:51:11but I am concerned about the national energy and effort
0:51:11 > 0:51:12that we will take five years or more
0:51:12 > 0:51:15disentangling ourselves from the European Union.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17- I think...- Five?
0:51:17 > 0:51:19It was only two at the start of the programme!
0:51:19 > 0:51:21LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:51:21 > 0:51:24- All right. - Julian, it was at least two.
0:51:24 > 0:51:26If we're any longer, it will go to ten!
0:51:26 > 0:51:28At least two, that's my latest estimate.
0:51:28 > 0:51:30We have got only five or six minutes left.
0:51:30 > 0:51:32I want to take one other question.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35- We had the news... - I wanted to talk about Boris.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37You want to say something about Boris?
0:51:37 > 0:51:40- Could I answer about Boris? - OK, very quickly.
0:51:40 > 0:51:42I just think that Boris is supposed
0:51:42 > 0:51:43to give a boost to the Leave campaign,
0:51:43 > 0:51:47but I think, mostly, he is giving a boost to the Boris campaign,
0:51:47 > 0:51:49because I think most things that Boris does
0:51:49 > 0:51:50are about Boris more than anything else!
0:51:50 > 0:51:52The junior doctors announced
0:51:52 > 0:51:56they are going to have three 48-hour strikes in March and April.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59And the question comes from Jim Green, please.
0:51:59 > 0:52:04The BMA has always enjoyed widespread public support.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08Will this continue if the doctors carry out further strikes?
0:52:08 > 0:52:10OK, we have talked about the issues often,
0:52:10 > 0:52:14but the strike action is the thing that is at issue here.
0:52:14 > 0:52:16Julian Fellowes?
0:52:16 > 0:52:20Well, the thing I don't really understand about
0:52:20 > 0:52:23these strikes is, obviously, when it was
0:52:23 > 0:52:27discovered that you had a far greater chance of
0:52:27 > 0:52:29dying if you went into hospital over the weekend...
0:52:29 > 0:52:31DISSENTING SHOUTS
0:52:31 > 0:52:34..clearly, someone had to do something about it.
0:52:34 > 0:52:36I don't understand, if the junior doctors
0:52:36 > 0:52:40actually thought the Secretary of State should not address it.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43It's now gone from 6,000 extra deaths, we were told yesterday,
0:52:43 > 0:52:44to 11,000 extra deaths.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47That is not true!
0:52:47 > 0:52:50So, that is what I don't understand.
0:52:50 > 0:52:53But the thing I mostly don't understand,
0:52:53 > 0:52:58is that 99% of people in this country want exactly
0:52:58 > 0:53:01the same thing, a good, happy, clean, modern
0:53:01 > 0:53:04Health Service which looks after the people
0:53:04 > 0:53:06who work there and looks after the patients.
0:53:06 > 0:53:08That is free at the point of use.
0:53:08 > 0:53:13We all want it. Why is it not possible for all parties to
0:53:13 > 0:53:16co-operate in solving the difficulties of the NHS,
0:53:16 > 0:53:19and just for once, couldn't we be grown-up enough
0:53:19 > 0:53:22to be able to collaborate instead of
0:53:22 > 0:53:24turning everything into a political football?
0:53:24 > 0:53:27All right. Giles Fraser, do you agree with that?
0:53:27 > 0:53:29APPLAUSE
0:53:29 > 0:53:33- Do you agree with him? - I don't agree with him.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36I wouldn't want my mum
0:53:36 > 0:53:38to go into hospital when there was a strike on,
0:53:38 > 0:53:41and I would be worried about it, and I don't think
0:53:41 > 0:53:44that... I don't think that junior doctors want to strike,
0:53:44 > 0:53:46I really don't think they want to strike. But...
0:53:46 > 0:53:49APPLAUSE
0:53:49 > 0:53:52But, listen, but, listen, here's the thing.
0:53:52 > 0:53:54What happens if you are in a situation
0:53:54 > 0:53:57where you, as a junior doctor, sincerely believe -
0:53:57 > 0:53:59and a great many of them do -
0:53:59 > 0:54:00that this new contract,
0:54:00 > 0:54:03this new situation being imposed upon them,
0:54:03 > 0:54:06will actually put people's lives at risk?
0:54:06 > 0:54:08- What happens if you think that? - APPLAUSE
0:54:08 > 0:54:10What do you do if you think this is what...
0:54:10 > 0:54:13And this is what they are saying, if you are so exhausted
0:54:13 > 0:54:18that you actually can't deal with the patients properly,
0:54:18 > 0:54:21they are right to say something, and if all they can do is strike,
0:54:21 > 0:54:24I don't like it, but I understand it.
0:54:24 > 0:54:25All right.
0:54:25 > 0:54:29APPLAUSE
0:54:29 > 0:54:31I expect you are a doctor. I am going to have to be brutal,
0:54:31 > 0:54:33we've only three minutes of this programme left
0:54:33 > 0:54:35because we talked a lot about Europe. Julia.
0:54:35 > 0:54:37Look, it's very simple.
0:54:37 > 0:54:4011,000 more people do die over the weekends in hospitals.
0:54:40 > 0:54:41SHOUTING
0:54:41 > 0:54:44The reason... Let me finish!
0:54:44 > 0:54:46The reason they do die is because they arrive at
0:54:46 > 0:54:49hospital sicker than the people who arrive Monday to Friday.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52They are almost all emergency cases.
0:54:52 > 0:54:56It is absolutely clear, the editor of the BMJ has said Jeremy Hunt
0:54:56 > 0:54:59is publicly misrepresenting the study that he keeps quoting
0:54:59 > 0:55:02about 11,000, and he is misusing the data to
0:55:02 > 0:55:05mislead the public. The reality is, we are talking basic maths here.
0:55:05 > 0:55:08It is not brain surgery or rocket science, it is basic maths.
0:55:08 > 0:55:10Jeremy Hunt says the new deal for junior doctors...
0:55:10 > 0:55:11It IS brain surgery!
0:55:11 > 0:55:16..more pay for fewer hours for the same number of doctors
0:55:16 > 0:55:20to cover more shifts. That is simply not mathematically possible.
0:55:20 > 0:55:21Someone is lying.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23You, sir?
0:55:23 > 0:55:25The stats are wrong, and I agree with your point,
0:55:25 > 0:55:2711,000 people more do not die at the weekend.
0:55:27 > 0:55:30The stats cover Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
0:55:30 > 0:55:31They do not die at the weekend.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34If junior doctors' staffing at the weekend was the problem,
0:55:34 > 0:55:36they would be dying at the weekend. They do not.
0:55:36 > 0:55:38The highest death rate in hospitals is on a Wednesday.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41- You have more doctors on a Wednesday than a Saturday and Sunday.- Yep.
0:55:41 > 0:55:43It is not a weekend effect.
0:55:43 > 0:55:44It is misrepresented by Mr Hunt,
0:55:44 > 0:55:46who is misrepresenting and lying, frankly,
0:55:46 > 0:55:49because when you are told something is wrong and continually repeat it,
0:55:49 > 0:55:53it becomes a lie. He is lying about what is happening in hospital.
0:55:53 > 0:55:54- Liz Truss...- We as doctors...
0:55:54 > 0:55:58I'm the doctor on call for the next two strikes.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01I'm the surgical registrar, the junior doctor who will be
0:56:01 > 0:56:03looking after each and every one of you when you come in.
0:56:03 > 0:56:06I will be making sure you are safe. I am the man below the consultant
0:56:06 > 0:56:07who will operate on you if you are sick.
0:56:07 > 0:56:11I will be there. No-one will be put at risk. I will make sure of it.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13APPLAUSE
0:56:13 > 0:56:15We will have to be very brief.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21Junior doctors do an incredible job.
0:56:21 > 0:56:23They are the backbone of our Health Service,
0:56:23 > 0:56:26but in response to what Giles has said,
0:56:26 > 0:56:30we are reducing the maximum number of hours doctors can work.
0:56:30 > 0:56:32- In the current contract... - SHOUTING
0:56:32 > 0:56:36- Let me finish...- ..reducing the maximum long shift, you're not reducing the number of hours!
0:56:36 > 0:56:39In the current contract, the maximum number of hours is 91 hours a week.
0:56:39 > 0:56:41- Sorry, the question... - We think that is unsafe...- Liz.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44- It's the same number of hours! - ..and it needs to be reduced.
0:56:44 > 0:56:48- You have made your point, sir.- I am so sorry.- Thank you very much.
0:56:48 > 0:56:52Wait a moment, Jim Green's point, and we have 60 seconds or so left,
0:56:52 > 0:56:55was will further strikes alienate public support?
0:56:55 > 0:56:56In your view?
0:56:56 > 0:56:58I think the contract is now fair. And I think...
0:56:58 > 0:57:00You are not answering the question.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02..it would be wrong if doctors did go on strike.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05- Diane Abbott?- I believe,
0:57:05 > 0:57:08despite the possible strike action,
0:57:08 > 0:57:12that doctors will continue to have the support of the public
0:57:12 > 0:57:16because people know junior doctors do not want to strike.
0:57:16 > 0:57:17They also know...
0:57:17 > 0:57:19APPLAUSE
0:57:19 > 0:57:25There's been this quite dishonest misuse of
0:57:25 > 0:57:28figures to suggest that doctors aren't already
0:57:28 > 0:57:30working a seven-day week, and people are dying
0:57:30 > 0:57:32because they won't.
0:57:32 > 0:57:33Doctors will continue...
0:57:33 > 0:57:36The public will have faith in its doctors
0:57:36 > 0:57:38long after it's lost faith in this Tory Government.
0:57:38 > 0:57:42- APPLAUSE - Hear, hear.
0:57:43 > 0:57:47You can - the woman in white there, smiling, smiling so winningly,
0:57:47 > 0:57:49you can have ten seconds.
0:57:49 > 0:57:50- Me?- You, yes, but be very quick.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53I just want to pop something into the general conversation,
0:57:53 > 0:57:55because I'm a probate lawyer,
0:57:55 > 0:57:57and I can tell you that the vast majority
0:57:57 > 0:58:00of new probate cases come in on a Monday.
0:58:02 > 0:58:05- This is for those who have died, sadly.- Deaths at the weekend.
0:58:05 > 0:58:07All right. I don't know whether that adds anything at all.
0:58:07 > 0:58:09LAUGHTER
0:58:09 > 0:58:11You got away with it. Our time's up.
0:58:11 > 0:58:14We are going to be in Liverpool next week, and we have
0:58:14 > 0:58:16John McDonnell, Labour Shadow Chancellor,
0:58:16 > 0:58:18among those on the panel in Liverpool.
0:58:18 > 0:58:21The week after that we will be in Dundee, so if you want to come to
0:58:21 > 0:58:23Liverpool or Dundee, you will be extremely welcome
0:58:23 > 0:58:25to come and take part in these lively discussions,
0:58:25 > 0:58:28Go to our website and apply there,
0:58:28 > 0:58:30or the telephone number, which is on the screen.
0:58:33 > 0:58:36If you are listening on Five Live, Radio Five Live, as I know
0:58:36 > 0:58:39many people do now, you can continue the debate
0:58:39 > 0:58:41on Question Time Extra Time,
0:58:41 > 0:58:44but here, my thanks to our very first-rate panel...
0:58:44 > 0:58:48LAUGHTER ..and our very first-rate audience.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51From Poole, until next Thursday, goodnight.
0:58:51 > 0:58:55APPLAUSE