0:00:02 > 0:00:05Tonight, we're in Liverpool. This is Question Time.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16A big welcome to our audience here, to all of you watching or listening
0:00:16 > 0:00:18and to tonight's panel.
0:00:18 > 0:00:22Conservative Justice Minister Dominic Raab.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Labour's Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer John McDonnell.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30The Ukip MEP and Health Spokesman Louise Bours.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32Guardian columnist Zoe Williams.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35And the former England and Premier League footballer,
0:00:35 > 0:00:38Jermaine Jenas. APPLAUSE
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Great. Thank you very much.
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0:01:09 > 0:01:12Our first question from James Mitchell, please.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14Mr Mitchell.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17Will the EU referendum be won based on who can scare the public more?
0:01:17 > 0:01:22Will the referendum be won based on who can scare the public more?
0:01:22 > 0:01:26That was one of the accusations made about scare tactics. Dominic Raab.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30We've had a lot of scaremongering from those wanting to stay in.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33All this talk about a leap into the darkness.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35We need to debate the substance of this.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39I am in favour of leaving the European Union,
0:01:39 > 0:01:41partly because I think, if I look at the effect
0:01:41 > 0:01:45of pulling back democratic control over our laws and regulation,
0:01:45 > 0:01:51we'll be able to have the right balance to promote business growth,
0:01:51 > 0:01:55which is good for jobs, the right balance to make sure we have cheaper
0:01:55 > 0:01:59energy bills, cheaper food bills, and also be freed up to trade more
0:01:59 > 0:02:04energetically with the real growth areas like Latin America and Asia.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06I also, frankly, whether on the left or the right,
0:02:06 > 0:02:09I think you should have stronger democratic control
0:02:09 > 0:02:11over the laws of the land.
0:02:11 > 0:02:1560% of them are made or derive from the EU,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18so I think the EU has really tested to breaking point
0:02:18 > 0:02:20the democratic contract.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24I think if we go on down that path, we will only erode public trust
0:02:24 > 0:02:27in our political class even more.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30APPLAUSE The way that the...
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Other government ministers who, like you, want out
0:02:37 > 0:02:42have called the Government's own claims dodgy, baloney, miserable,
0:02:42 > 0:02:44negative, fear-based - do you agree?
0:02:44 > 0:02:46I choose my own words to describe it.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50I think there is a lot of Project Fear coming out,
0:02:50 > 0:02:52almost a scare story everyday.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54I don't think anyone credibly believes it.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58We heard this week the suggestion we'd be locked out of trade.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Actually, if you look at what Britain's former ambassador
0:03:01 > 0:03:03to the EU, Lord Kerr, has said,
0:03:03 > 0:03:05there's no doubt we'd keep having a strong trading
0:03:05 > 0:03:07relationship with the EU if we were out.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10The CBI said we'd have a high-level, ambitious free trade deal.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13Even the Prime Minister said it's scaremongering to say otherwise.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16Let's talk about the facts and substance and enlighten the debate,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18not try and cast a shadow over it.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22Was Iain Duncan Smith, who's one of your Brexit ministers,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25was he scaremongering when he said the UK would be more
0:03:25 > 0:03:30vulnerable to a Paris-style terror attack if we stayed in the EU?
0:03:30 > 0:03:34- Is that true?- There is a real issue around border controls.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37If you look at what Rob Wainwright, who's the head of Europol has said,
0:03:37 > 0:03:40he says we've got 5,000 terrorist suspects,
0:03:40 > 0:03:42or people who have been to terrorist camps,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45who have been out there and have come back,
0:03:45 > 0:03:47and they're flowing freely - or at least potentially -
0:03:47 > 0:03:49because we haven't got control of our borders.
0:03:49 > 0:03:50I think the border control issue
0:03:50 > 0:03:52does have an implication for security, yes.
0:03:52 > 0:03:54OK. John McDonnell.
0:03:54 > 0:03:59I just think both sides now should just calm down a bit.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02Most of us want a sensible, rational debate and discussion.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04APPLAUSE
0:04:09 > 0:04:14I don't think people should be frightened into voting either way.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17I voted against joining the common market.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19I'm old enough to have had a vote originally.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21I voted against going to the common market.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23But the longer the European Union has developed,
0:04:23 > 0:04:25I have come to a view that in the short term,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28because of the fragility of our economy,
0:04:28 > 0:04:31withdrawal would set us backwards.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35Withdrawal from a market that almost 50% of our trade is with
0:04:35 > 0:04:39would destabilise our economy when we are at a fragile position.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42I want to move the debate on into...
0:04:42 > 0:04:46I think we should have a longer-term vision for Europe.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49I think the key issues that we face in the 21st century,
0:04:49 > 0:04:51we have to deal with on an international level
0:04:51 > 0:04:52across Europe.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56If you look at what those key issues are,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58they are about peace, to be frank.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01People just accept peace for granted within Europe.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05It's only 70 years ago my father was in the British Army.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08Before that, my grandfather was in the First World War.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10Europe has secured peace,
0:05:10 > 0:05:12and by including more and more states in the EU,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15we consolidate that peace.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17Trying to work out where you stand on this.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19You said something rather interesting.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21You said in the short term, we should stay.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25Do you mean in the long term, Labour policy would be to pull out?
0:05:25 > 0:05:26I'm trying to say two things.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29One is, in the short term, there are risks.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33- Are you going to vote in or out? - I'm going to vote in.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35Let me finish my point, David.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40In the long term, we have to pitch this debate on the long-term future
0:05:40 > 0:05:41of our country and Europe.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44The long-term advantages are these -
0:05:44 > 0:05:46that we continue to secure peace.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49The big issue facing us is climate change,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52we can only tackle that on a European basis and globally.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54In addition to that, mass migration.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56We've seen the problems we've got now,
0:05:56 > 0:05:59we can only do that through co-operation.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01Also, I have to say as well,
0:06:01 > 0:06:03this argument we've ceded sovereignty
0:06:03 > 0:06:05to European institutions,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08we have ceded sovereignty to multinational corporations.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11APPLAUSE
0:06:11 > 0:06:14The only way we can tackle them and bring them under some form of
0:06:14 > 0:06:17democratic control, including making sure they pay tax,
0:06:17 > 0:06:19is on a European scale.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22On those bases, both short-term and long-term,
0:06:22 > 0:06:24- my view is that we remain in.- OK.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28APPLAUSE You, sir. The man with spectacles.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32John, you say you want to stay in the European Union
0:06:32 > 0:06:35to give more democratic control over business.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38But whilst we are within the European Union,
0:06:38 > 0:06:41it is illegal to expand state ownership of business.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44How does that aid democratic control of business?
0:06:44 > 0:06:46That's a great question.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49If we stay in, we've got to have our reform agenda.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51What's interesting, right across Europe now,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54we are working with socialists, social democratic
0:06:54 > 0:06:57and other progressive parties to develop that reform agenda,
0:06:57 > 0:07:01which means ensuring more democratic control at a local level -
0:07:01 > 0:07:04subsidiarity really works, but also coming to common agreements.
0:07:04 > 0:07:08How we democratically control, for example, the flow of capital,
0:07:08 > 0:07:10ensuring we get the long-term investment that we need
0:07:10 > 0:07:13- that shares prosperity right across Europe.- All right.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16- We can only do that on a European basis.- Jermaine.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20Do you think the parties are trying to scare the public on how to vote?
0:07:20 > 0:07:24I do think there is an element of scaremongering.
0:07:24 > 0:07:29My position on this is I can't make an educated decision,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32based on I don't feel I'm being given enough facts
0:07:32 > 0:07:34one way or another.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36APPLAUSE
0:07:40 > 0:07:43It's hard enough as it is.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47Then you've got the Boris situation with Cameron and the squabbling.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49It's like you're getting pulled from pillar to post.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53The scaremongering tactics, if I can use a footballing phrase,
0:07:53 > 0:07:57this has been used by footballers and agents for years.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00You get a top player at a club, Wayne Rooney, for example,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02and he wants a new deal at that club.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05The agent will go to Real Madrid, or to Liverpool and he'll go,
0:08:05 > 0:08:07"Right, get interested in our player..."
0:08:07 > 0:08:10And he will almost force Manchester United's hand to make sure
0:08:10 > 0:08:12he gets the deal he wants.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16It's no different, really, what they're doing.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20In politics, who plays which part? Who is your Wayne Rooney?
0:08:20 > 0:08:22- I'm not going down that road. - LAUGHTER
0:08:24 > 0:08:27- OK. Hold on a second... - Jermaine has made a good point.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29We've been dragged into this issue
0:08:29 > 0:08:32over an issue of Conservative leadership.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35I don't think that's the main issue. That's what's happening.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37We've seen a fight between Boris and Osborne
0:08:37 > 0:08:40which is detracting from a proper debate that we should be having,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43- a rational debate. - APPLAUSE
0:08:44 > 0:08:47In fairness, whether your view is that you want state ownership or,
0:08:47 > 0:08:50like me, you want more of a free enterprise model,
0:08:50 > 0:08:54the truth is it's only this Government that has given you,
0:08:54 > 0:08:58whether in this room or watching at home, a say, a voice, the choice.
0:08:58 > 0:09:00I think it's a once in a generation lifetime.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03I think John and I and all the panellists want to shed light on it,
0:09:03 > 0:09:06not to spread the shade of darkness and the rest of it.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10Actually, in the last analysis, you are the ones that have the say.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13In fact, I disagree with the Prime Minister on this
0:09:13 > 0:09:15but I would pay huge credit to him
0:09:15 > 0:09:18for giving the British people a say after 40 years.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21APPLAUSE OK. You, sir.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26With all the scaremongering that's going on in the media about this,
0:09:26 > 0:09:30I don't see how the general public can make an informed decision.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34You've seen Hollande's comments today about leaving the EU,
0:09:34 > 0:09:37saying the economic impact that will have,
0:09:37 > 0:09:39but reading articles in the newspapers,
0:09:39 > 0:09:41there do not seem to be any facts.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44It's both sides saying different things
0:09:44 > 0:09:46and you don't know who to believe.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48When you say you don't know who to believe,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51you think the arguments are not meeting each other?
0:09:51 > 0:09:53- Everybody just says what they think...- Yeah.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56..will win you over and in fact, what you are saying is
0:09:56 > 0:09:59it's not winning you over because you don't believe any of them.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02I don't believe what they're saying cos I think they've got
0:10:02 > 0:10:07- their own agendas and I don't know how to vote.- Zoe Williams.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11Not only are both sides using scare tactics, I think both sides
0:10:11 > 0:10:15are relying over heavily on economic arguments they can't justify.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17They are making arguments like,
0:10:17 > 0:10:20"Do this because otherwise it will cost you more."
0:10:20 > 0:10:22"No, do this because otherwise, it will cost you more that way."
0:10:22 > 0:10:26It's not only incredible, you know, you don't really believe it,
0:10:26 > 0:10:28but it's really insulting.
0:10:28 > 0:10:32Most of us don't make choices based on how much a tin of bean costs -
0:10:32 > 0:10:33how much a tin of beans costs.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35It's very insulting and very uninspiring.
0:10:35 > 0:10:40At the moment, I think Brexit are making a slightly better hope case,
0:10:40 > 0:10:44while the kind of "ins" are making a kind of fear case.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46I would like to see the "in" side
0:10:46 > 0:10:50making a better case for a hopeful Europe.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53Even though you're right that it is there for peace,
0:10:53 > 0:10:55to combat climate change,
0:10:55 > 0:10:57to deal with mass migration in a cooperative way,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00you've got to make a case for something good happening
0:11:00 > 0:11:02as a result of Europe.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04I'd say it's good to be part of Europe because you can build
0:11:04 > 0:11:07a renewables programme that you share across the continent.
0:11:07 > 0:11:08It's good to be part of Europe
0:11:08 > 0:11:11because it's the most dense knowledge-based economy
0:11:11 > 0:11:12with the best universities,
0:11:12 > 0:11:16and we share that infrastructure and it's ours to use.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18There are really good hope cases to be made,
0:11:18 > 0:11:22but obviously only if you are in and lobbying for those cases.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Whenever I write that, somebody always says,
0:11:24 > 0:11:27"Hang on, you want us to believe in a Europe that doesn't exist.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29"That's completely the opposite to the way it is now
0:11:29 > 0:11:31"in order that we vote for it.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33"In order that we change it even though we never do."
0:11:33 > 0:11:35And I'm like, "Well, yeah, basically."
0:11:35 > 0:11:38APPLAUSE Louise Bours.
0:11:40 > 0:11:44In answer to the first question, I think absolutely.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Scare tactics will be used and I have no doubt
0:11:47 > 0:11:51they will continue to be used right up until the 23rd of June.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56I hope the Brexit campaign doesn't go down the route that
0:11:56 > 0:11:59the "in" campaign seem to be going down at the moment,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02which is just fraught with huge,
0:12:02 > 0:12:06mammoth scare stories on a daily basis.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09I think several panellists and several members of the audience
0:12:09 > 0:12:13have already alluded to it, that what's happening is
0:12:13 > 0:12:19there's no tangible facts being pushed out there by either side.
0:12:19 > 0:12:24What we have is politicians who are just spouting lots of statistics
0:12:24 > 0:12:26that back up their arguments,
0:12:26 > 0:12:29and we all know statistics can be made to back up anything
0:12:29 > 0:12:33we want to say, instead of making a positive case for what
0:12:33 > 0:12:36a fantastic country this is.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38We're the fifth-largest economy in the world.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43If you think in terms of our soft power across the globe,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47in terms of football, sport, music, arts, culture,
0:12:47 > 0:12:51we have tremendous influence across the world.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54We contribute massively to that soft power economy.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58I think those kind of things are not talked about enough.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01In reference to a point John made, it certainly isn't
0:13:01 > 0:13:04the European Union that have kept peace in Europe.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06- It is Nato. - APPLAUSE
0:13:06 > 0:13:08I think we ought to acknowledge that.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15Louise, if it's so simple to prescribe how the argument
0:13:15 > 0:13:18should be fought by people like you on Brexit,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20why can't you get your campaign together?
0:13:20 > 0:13:23You've got two campaigns that seem to spend most of their time
0:13:23 > 0:13:24sniping at each other.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Absolutely, that's a very, very bad thing.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31That's a very bad show, and I wish the people
0:13:31 > 0:13:33at the head of these campaigns would put their egos aside
0:13:33 > 0:13:37and come together for the good of the Brexit campaign,
0:13:37 > 0:13:39and I'm hopeful that will happen.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42What do you have against each other? I don't know which side you're on.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45- You're on the Farage side? - I'm not on any side.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47I'm not on either side.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50I want a campaign that is going to give people...not facts
0:13:50 > 0:13:52and anacronyms and mad statistics.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55I want to see the fundamental case for Europe.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57What a great country we are,
0:13:57 > 0:14:01supporting our SMEs, supporting business in this country,
0:14:01 > 0:14:03entrepreneurship, inventiveness,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06all these fantastic things we give to the world.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08It is a marvellous place to live. We're very lucky.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10And that is the message I want to give.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13OK. The woman at the very back. On the right.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15I just wanted to say we need clarification
0:14:15 > 0:14:18on the main salient facts.
0:14:18 > 0:14:24For example, in October we've got the relaxation of the visas
0:14:24 > 0:14:27for the Turkish nationals.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29Does that mean we're going to get an influx
0:14:29 > 0:14:32of migrant workers from Turkey?
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Have we got any say in that? Can we say no?
0:14:34 > 0:14:37We have to bear in mind that one of those...
0:14:37 > 0:14:39You picked up a really, really interesting point.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43One of the things everybody is pushing for, including Mr Cameron,
0:14:43 > 0:14:46is for Turkey to be a full member of the European Union,
0:14:46 > 0:14:49and that opens our borders to another 75 million people.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53You know, we have to look at our infrastructure and public services
0:14:53 > 0:14:57which, in many places here in the north-west, are at capacity.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59Could we cope with that?
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Let's hear from some more members of the audience.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03The man in the blue shirt? Then I'll come over to you.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05Jermaine was talking about facts
0:15:05 > 0:15:09and John's sat there as a Labour representative.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11If you look at Stuart Rose yesterday
0:15:11 > 0:15:14and what he told to the Treasury Select Committee
0:15:14 > 0:15:17where he confirmed that the Bank of England report
0:15:17 > 0:15:20that stated how immigration had impacted
0:15:20 > 0:15:24on the low and semi-skilled workers,
0:15:24 > 0:15:26six million workers in this country
0:15:26 > 0:15:29that have been affected by immigration
0:15:29 > 0:15:31have got a reduced standard of living.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34How can a Labour representative sit there and say
0:15:34 > 0:15:37you're going to vote to stay in when it's having such
0:15:37 > 0:15:40a dramatic effect on so many people?
0:15:40 > 0:15:45- Six million people in this country. - APPLAUSE
0:15:45 > 0:15:48What do you think of what Lord Rose in effect said, therefore,
0:15:48 > 0:15:50was if you vote to leave the EU,
0:15:50 > 0:15:52wages will go up for six million people.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54- Do you think he meant to say that? - Yes.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58- He clarified his comments, yes. - He explained it's supply and demand.
0:15:58 > 0:16:03For years now, the left has been saying the same thing, you know.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Immigration is good, it creates jobs.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08Yes, it does, that much is true.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10But the wage compression effect is massive
0:16:10 > 0:16:13so it makes you wonder, then, for the likes of Stuart Rose
0:16:13 > 0:16:16and all of the people writing these letters from the FTSE,
0:16:16 > 0:16:18what do they really care about?
0:16:18 > 0:16:20The wages of British people or profits that can be made
0:16:20 > 0:16:23- for these multinational companies? - Big business.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25APPLAUSE OK. Over to you up there.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29No, behind you. The man behind you. Then I will come to you.
0:16:29 > 0:16:33I think there's a lot of confusing facts out there at the minute
0:16:33 > 0:16:36but I think what's definitely clear is the Eurozone's failed.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39Isn't it time to get hold of our currency
0:16:39 > 0:16:44and get control of our economy before we press on into the world?
0:16:44 > 0:16:47Just get Britain sorted first and then...
0:16:47 > 0:16:51- You are a Brexiter?- I am. - The woman in front of you?
0:16:51 > 0:16:53I am a Brexiter as well.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56If you look at what's happened with the refugee crisis
0:16:56 > 0:16:58over the last six months,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01how am I supposed to believe in a Europe when all the countries
0:17:01 > 0:17:04are squabbling about what to do with the refugee crisis?
0:17:04 > 0:17:06They can't decide what's best for Europe,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09so how are they going to decide what's best for us?
0:17:09 > 0:17:11And how am I supposed to think it's good to stay in?
0:17:11 > 0:17:14OK. We've got a question about that which I'll take in a moment.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18But let's hear from you, sir. Over there. And you in the front.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21I'll take you in the front on the second row first.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23Then you behind.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25I am very much divided over this issue
0:17:25 > 0:17:27but I'm very confused about Labour's position.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29I was watching Prime Minister's Questions yesterday
0:17:29 > 0:17:32and as far as I'm concerned, it looks like Jeremy Corbyn
0:17:32 > 0:17:35and the whole of the frontbench just want this issue to go away
0:17:35 > 0:17:37because it's not on their agenda.
0:17:37 > 0:17:39John McDonnell, what do you say to that?
0:17:39 > 0:17:42Let me add to that what the leader of the Green Party said today,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45that she was concerned by the relative silence
0:17:45 > 0:17:48from the Labour leadership on the EU referendum.
0:17:48 > 0:17:49Why is this?
0:17:49 > 0:17:51It's not silence, and to be frank, the focus of the debate
0:17:51 > 0:17:54seems to have been divisions within the Conservative Party so far.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58Now is the time, you're right, now's the time for Labour itself...
0:17:58 > 0:18:00And Alan Johnson's been doing various meetings
0:18:00 > 0:18:03around the country expressing our policy, but you're right,
0:18:03 > 0:18:05now is the time for us to actually come out a bit more
0:18:05 > 0:18:07in terms of explaining our views.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09The view is that we want to transform Europe.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13We don't want the EU as it now is, we have our own reform agenda
0:18:13 > 0:18:15and it's about protecting wages,
0:18:15 > 0:18:17making sure we enforce trade union rights.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19The benefits we have had so far
0:18:19 > 0:18:22is actually our campaigns in Europe have developed issues
0:18:22 > 0:18:25around maternity and paternity leave, protection for workers,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28which this Government's tried to undermine.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30So we have used Europe as the vehicle to protect that.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Why haven't you been campaigning on this?
0:18:33 > 0:18:34Three weeks have gone by.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37Did you decide not to and to let the Tories fight each other?
0:18:37 > 0:18:42No. Enjoyable though that might have been at times, but no. Not at all.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45Are you saying Jeremy Corbyn and you will come out fighting?
0:18:45 > 0:18:48We've been out there but we've been crowded out of the media
0:18:48 > 0:18:50because of what's happened in the Tory Party.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52We will be out there on the stump, arguing our case.
0:18:52 > 0:18:57Our case is... We've got Europhiles and Europhobes.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00Those who accept everything about Europe that is good,
0:19:00 > 0:19:02those who detest Europe.
0:19:02 > 0:19:04Our decision is a rational one,
0:19:04 > 0:19:08which is we believe it's in the best interests to remain within the EU
0:19:08 > 0:19:12but there are real issues that have to be addressed
0:19:12 > 0:19:14and we have got to develop a reform agenda
0:19:14 > 0:19:17and that is about protecting wages.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21It's about developing trade union rights and long-term investment.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23It's about having, exactly as Zoe said,
0:19:23 > 0:19:25a real vision for the future, one of hope.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28- It does exist...- Hold on. APPLAUSE
0:19:29 > 0:19:34That agenda is being developed right across Europe with other...
0:19:34 > 0:19:36With respect, I think we've got the point twice now.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39Dominic Raab, do you want to comment on what John said?
0:19:39 > 0:19:41I think the truth is there are different views
0:19:41 > 0:19:43within the Labour Party and that's respectable.
0:19:43 > 0:19:44We're not clones in the Tory party.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46They're not clones in the Labour Party.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49Frank Field, one of the most respected Labour figures,
0:19:49 > 0:19:53has talked very much about the social impact of immigration
0:19:53 > 0:19:56and that's been the key reason, the lack of border controls,
0:19:56 > 0:19:58why he's come out for Brexit.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01I wondered if I may pick up on the point the gentleman made
0:20:01 > 0:20:03about businesses and Lord Rose's comments.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07The key thing about the EU is we get huge amounts of red tape
0:20:07 > 0:20:10but the big businesses with the big HR departments
0:20:10 > 0:20:12and lawyers are much better placed to deal with it.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15The commission's own advisory group say that their red tape
0:20:15 > 0:20:19hits small businesses ten times harder than big businesses.
0:20:19 > 0:20:20Up here in the north-west,
0:20:20 > 0:20:2399% of the firms are small businesses
0:20:23 > 0:20:26and two-thirds of employment is through small businesses
0:20:26 > 0:20:28so do you want to stick up for the big corporations
0:20:28 > 0:20:29in hock with the EU?
0:20:29 > 0:20:33Or stand up for the little guy, the worker and the small businesses?
0:20:33 > 0:20:37Are we throwing light on this issue? APPLAUSE
0:20:37 > 0:20:39What? Shaking your heads.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41The man up there. You, sir, with the glasses? Yes.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44I think we're skirting around the major issue here
0:20:44 > 0:20:46which is democracy.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50British democracy is a beacon around the world and the European Union
0:20:50 > 0:20:52is inherently undemocratic, the way it works.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55This is the last chance we are going to get to vote on this
0:20:55 > 0:20:57for a long, long time.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59It's really important that people realise that democracy
0:20:59 > 0:21:01is at the heart of the election here.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04APPLAUSE OK. The woman in the second row?
0:21:05 > 0:21:08John McDonnell keeps talking about the reform agenda
0:21:08 > 0:21:12and isn't the whole point that attempts at reform...
0:21:12 > 0:21:17Where is your potency to have reform within the current EU system?
0:21:17 > 0:21:19OK. Leave that as a question.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22- And the man behind? - On a similar theme,
0:21:22 > 0:21:26how long would you allow for this reform agenda, you know?
0:21:26 > 0:21:29If you are going to allow one?
0:21:29 > 0:21:31- If you vote to stay in, how long would you allow?- Yes.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33It... Sorry.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36Look. I've got a problem with this democratic thing.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38There is a democratic deficit in Europe, for sure.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40Nobody would say it's perfect.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43Nobody does say it's perfect, except for the "in" campaign,
0:21:43 > 0:21:45which I think is making a mistake.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47When you say it's a democratic deficit,
0:21:47 > 0:21:49you've got to look at something like the environment.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51The European Union, over the past 20 years,
0:21:51 > 0:21:53has acted almost as an environmental union.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Everybody said we want this for the environment -
0:21:56 > 0:21:59clean beaches, clean air, and Europe brought that into play and did it
0:21:59 > 0:22:02with very, very slow laws which are very difficult to unpick.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04Compare that to the way the British governments work,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07the Government will say hug a husky...
0:22:07 > 0:22:08No, hang on a sec. A hoodie.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11No, a husky...one week and then come in,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14suddenly the renewables programme is pulled back,
0:22:14 > 0:22:15suddenly renewables are back on the table,
0:22:15 > 0:22:19suddenly their commitments are this, then not this...
0:22:19 > 0:22:21You see a huge amount of tegiversation
0:22:21 > 0:22:23with national governments which bears no relation
0:22:23 > 0:22:25to the things that we've democratically asked for.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30So the idea that just by being kind of outside Europe we'll get
0:22:30 > 0:22:32the democracy that we deserve, I think, is wrong.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35APPLAUSE OK. I'm going to move on.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Each week we do quite a substantial chunk on this,
0:22:39 > 0:22:43but I want to pick up the question that a woman up there put
0:22:43 > 0:22:45and Catherine Boots has it here. Yes, Catherine.
0:22:45 > 0:22:53Has the migrant crisis been mishandled by European countries?
0:22:53 > 0:22:55Has the migrant crisis been mishandled? Louise Bours?
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Absolutely. We had, at the beginning of it, Angela Merkel.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02I'm sure you'll all remember Angela Merkel
0:23:02 > 0:23:07basically saying, "Everyone, come. The doors are open."
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Then today, or yesterday...today, I think it was,
0:23:11 > 0:23:16we had Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council,
0:23:16 > 0:23:20saying, "Don't come, it's closed. You cannot come."
0:23:20 > 0:23:24So we've had this huge open-arm invitation
0:23:24 > 0:23:25and now we have this huge,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28"Stop, don't come, you're not wanted."
0:23:28 > 0:23:29Of course it's been mishandled.
0:23:29 > 0:23:34It was so, so silly to say what she did initially,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37not knowing how many would come, not knowing how they would come,
0:23:37 > 0:23:41and also not taking into consideration at all
0:23:41 > 0:23:46the terrorist threat that exists at the moment in those countries.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48We have to all...
0:23:48 > 0:23:52You know, we have to admit that when these migrants are coming...
0:23:52 > 0:23:55The European Union figures themselves are saying now
0:23:55 > 0:24:00that roughly 5,000 jihadists have already made their way
0:24:00 > 0:24:04on to the continent with the migrants/refugees.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06You said the cultures that people came are wrong
0:24:06 > 0:24:09and blamed those attacks in Cologne
0:24:09 > 0:24:13on the people who had been allowed in and said that was foolish.
0:24:13 > 0:24:17- You weren't talking about jihadis? - No, absolutely.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20We have to accept that the people who are coming
0:24:20 > 0:24:22are culturally different from us.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25Sometimes that is a great thing and cultures can integrate
0:24:25 > 0:24:27and we all live happily.
0:24:27 > 0:24:35What Cologne showed us was that these huge numbers of young males,
0:24:35 > 0:24:40obviously, who see women as very different to Western men,
0:24:40 > 0:24:42how they see women,
0:24:42 > 0:24:44and unfortunately those mass sexual assaults
0:24:44 > 0:24:48didn't just happen in Cologne but Helsinki and across Europe
0:24:48 > 0:24:50and they were organised.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53That is a very frightening thing for people in this country.
0:24:53 > 0:24:58If you then had, in Germany, signs being put up in swimming pools
0:24:58 > 0:25:01and public buildings, for women, saying what you can do,
0:25:01 > 0:25:04what you can't do, you mustn't smile,
0:25:04 > 0:25:06you mustn't wear your...
0:25:06 > 0:25:07- That's wrong.- Sorry to stop you.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10There are many people around the table, we have to bring them in.
0:25:10 > 0:25:11Jermaine? What's your view?
0:25:11 > 0:25:15The road that Angela Merkel went down was pretty ridiculous,
0:25:15 > 0:25:19to be honest with you, and it caused chaos.
0:25:19 > 0:25:24I spoke about facts when I spoke about the EU
0:25:24 > 0:25:28and whether to stay in or leave. I wanted some type of facts.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31The way they have handled this situation is something that
0:25:31 > 0:25:33probably takes me away from that
0:25:33 > 0:25:36because I think it's been completely mishandled.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39Doesn't give me any confidence, so to speak, within the EU.
0:25:39 > 0:25:45I would like to probably see more of a pro rata-type basis handling
0:25:45 > 0:25:52of the situation, look at each country's economic value basically,
0:25:52 > 0:25:57how much land they've got and deal with the situation like that.
0:25:57 > 0:26:01I don't think... It's definitely not something we can turn our backs on,
0:26:01 > 0:26:04it's there and we need to deal with it in that type of way.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06- Dominic.- That's the key to it.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10We've got to have an immigration system people have confidence in.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13The truth is, put the asylum seekers, the genuine refugees,
0:26:13 > 0:26:16those fleeing persecution to one side in a moment...
0:26:16 > 0:26:20That was what her question is about. Let's stick with her question.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22But they are a relatively small proportion
0:26:22 > 0:26:26and we should treat them humanely and offer them a safe haven.
0:26:26 > 0:26:281.5 million, is that relatively small?
0:26:28 > 0:26:32Sorry, the vast majority coming through Calais
0:26:32 > 0:26:35and the routes from Syria, through the Mediterranean,
0:26:35 > 0:26:38whether we call them refugees, they are coming for a better life.
0:26:38 > 0:26:40They're what we, in that unsavoury phrase,
0:26:40 > 0:26:41call economic migrants.
0:26:41 > 0:26:45And the truth is we need to do three things to restore trust
0:26:45 > 0:26:48in our immigration system - make sure people coming here can be
0:26:48 > 0:26:52self-sufficient, make sure if they break the law they can be removed
0:26:52 > 0:26:55from this country and have some control over the raw numbers
0:26:55 > 0:26:58because of the pressures on wages, as has already been mentioned,
0:26:58 > 0:27:01because of the pressures on public services.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04We cannot do any of those three things from within the EU
0:27:04 > 0:27:06and that's why...
0:27:06 > 0:27:08I wish we could but we can't.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10If you want to restore public confidence in our border controls,
0:27:10 > 0:27:12you have to leave the European Union.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15I'm going back to the questioner. APPLAUSE
0:27:15 > 0:27:17May I interrupt?
0:27:20 > 0:27:25All the heads of Government have put millions of pounds for the migrants,
0:27:25 > 0:27:29yes, to make...help them.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Where's the help? There's thousands of them at the border.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35Young children.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39There should be people sent out there with the millions
0:27:39 > 0:27:42you're sending out there for nurses, builders.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45Them tents are no use,
0:27:45 > 0:27:48you're putting children in tents in the middle of winter.
0:27:48 > 0:27:52The time we've been in this situation since last year,
0:27:52 > 0:27:54nothing's been done.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57You've got a few tents and a few toilets.
0:27:57 > 0:28:0342 toilets in one camp for 8,000 people.
0:28:03 > 0:28:07How is that good for the migrant?
0:28:07 > 0:28:09Put some money where it's seen.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12- I can't see any money going out there.- OK. Zoe Williams?
0:28:12 > 0:28:14APPLAUSE
0:28:19 > 0:28:22I'm surprised to hear Dominic say these are economic migrants
0:28:22 > 0:28:26rather than refugees because we know there is a war in Syria,
0:28:26 > 0:28:30we know there are violent situations in Iraq, Afghanistan,
0:28:30 > 0:28:32Central African Republic, Eritrea.
0:28:32 > 0:28:36We know where the refugees are coming from and why they're fleeing.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39The idea that most are economic migrants is patently untrue.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42- APPLAUSE - You don't know that.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45I actually do know that. Oh, yes, I do. The UNHCR...
0:28:45 > 0:28:48It's impossible for you to know that.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51- How would it be impossible? - Some are fleeing persecution.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54Can I just tell you, nobody puts their children on a black dinghy
0:28:54 > 0:28:57across that strait if it's not safer on the boat than it is on the land.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00APPLAUSE
0:29:01 > 0:29:04I've actually been in Lesbos, I've seen the people come in.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06850,000 came through Lesbos last year.
0:29:06 > 0:29:10It's an awe-inspiringly dangerous journey, and a very expensive one,
0:29:10 > 0:29:12funnelling money back to the smugglers.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14And we'll get more of those tragic cases
0:29:14 > 0:29:17- if we don't deal with the problem in the region. At source.- OK.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20We're putting more money than any other European country
0:29:20 > 0:29:22- to try and do that.- Dominic.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24If you just open your borders, which is John's position,
0:29:24 > 0:29:27you will find the problem gets worse, not better.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30They are leaving a safe country.
0:29:30 > 0:29:35Why do they put them in the boats from Turkey?
0:29:35 > 0:29:38- Turkey is a safe country. - All right. Finish, Zoe, please.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41- Why take that risk?- One at a time, please. Not two at a time. Zoe.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43The point is, OK, it's fine.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46Solve the problem at source if you think you can, but in the meantime,
0:29:46 > 0:29:49we're signatories to the Refugee Convention.
0:29:49 > 0:29:50When people are fleeing for their lives,
0:29:50 > 0:29:53they don't listen to Merkel or Tusk, particularly,
0:29:53 > 0:29:55they flee danger and we've got duties,
0:29:55 > 0:29:59- as human beings, to care for them. - APPLAUSE
0:30:00 > 0:30:03You might have a long-term plan to deal with Syria
0:30:03 > 0:30:05but until you make it work...
0:30:05 > 0:30:08The EU system says you go to your first port of entry
0:30:08 > 0:30:11and then you have an allocation.
0:30:11 > 0:30:13Donald Tusk is now saying do not come to Europe,
0:30:13 > 0:30:15do not believe the smugglers,
0:30:15 > 0:30:18do not risk your lives and money. It's all for nothing.
0:30:18 > 0:30:22- John McDonnell? - Can you remember, only a year ago,
0:30:22 > 0:30:26that body of the baby picked up off the beach?
0:30:26 > 0:30:30Can you remember that? That's how desperate things were.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32Where people were coming cross, exactly as Zoe said,
0:30:32 > 0:30:35on life rafts and all the rest, and they were fleeing...
0:30:35 > 0:30:37They were fleeing...
0:30:37 > 0:30:40- They were fleeing... - They were safe.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43- He was living in safety.- He was. - They were fleeing...
0:30:43 > 0:30:46- He put his child... - Sorry. John, just for a second.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48Wait. Start again, sir, so we can hear the point.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51Sorry. That man was in safety, he was living in a camp.
0:30:51 > 0:30:55He put his children in danger. He brought his child across.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58- He was responsible. Nobody else. - APPLAUSE
0:30:58 > 0:31:02- They were fleeing a war zone. - He wasn't.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05They were fleeing a war zone and then when they get to Turkey,
0:31:05 > 0:31:10they had no assistance whatsoever and they were absolutely desperate.
0:31:10 > 0:31:12Absolute desperation. The whole...
0:31:12 > 0:31:15If you look at the refugees system we are in at the moment...
0:31:15 > 0:31:18I take Dominic's point seriously.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20We've got to resolve the situation at source,
0:31:20 > 0:31:25and that means trying to secure peace in Syria through negotiations.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28I have to say, us bombing Syria doesn't help in that situation.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31APPLAUSE
0:31:31 > 0:31:33- Can I just finish on this? - Well, no...
0:31:33 > 0:31:40I believe we have a duty, humanitarian duty, to do,
0:31:40 > 0:31:42exactly as this lady has said,
0:31:42 > 0:31:45everything we can to assist the refugees themselves.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48The only way you can do that is if countries come together
0:31:48 > 0:31:52in a co-ordinated way, add together their resources,
0:31:52 > 0:31:56help all we can, of course around the Syrian borders themselves,
0:31:56 > 0:32:00but also, actually, if people have to be resettled,
0:32:00 > 0:32:03we do it on a planned basis, exactly as Jermaine has said,
0:32:03 > 0:32:06on a planned and co-operative basis right across Europe.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09As a country, to be frank,
0:32:09 > 0:32:13in comparison with other European countries, we have failed dismally.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16Use Catherine Boots' question. If you could answer, briefly, that.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20Has the crisis been mishandled by the heads of the European countries?
0:32:20 > 0:32:23I believe it's been mishandled by every European state,
0:32:23 > 0:32:25and that includes our one.
0:32:25 > 0:32:30We need to do more and we need to cooperate to achieve it.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32You, sir, there. And then I'll come to you up there. Yes.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35I take it the panel watches the internet.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38If you watch the internet, you will find half of the stuff
0:32:38 > 0:32:40you see on the media on the telly is edited.
0:32:40 > 0:32:45Half of them immigrants, they don't want water, they don't want food,
0:32:45 > 0:32:48they want money and they want to try to get to Britain.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50APPLAUSE
0:32:50 > 0:32:52You up there. Yes. The woman up there.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55I volunteer at a local refugee crisis centre,
0:32:55 > 0:32:58and I think for Louise to basically brand them
0:32:58 > 0:33:02as people who come here searching for money and...
0:33:02 > 0:33:08- I didn't say that.- You said their opinions of women and these things.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10They are fleeing from war zones.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13Can you imagine how you would feel to have to leave everything behind?
0:33:13 > 0:33:17- To leave your family? - Can I answer that?- No, you can't.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21She just commented on what you said, which is fair enough.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24- I didn't say that, though, she made it up.- Yes, you.
0:33:24 > 0:33:28The union is supposed to be based on unity and solidarity
0:33:28 > 0:33:31and each of these member states, they're not seeing them as people,
0:33:31 > 0:33:34they see them as nothing, really.
0:33:34 > 0:33:35It's not on.
0:33:35 > 0:33:40I don't see how people can say remaining in the EU is good
0:33:40 > 0:33:42if the leaders are going to act in this way.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45I think it's disgusting, the way they have handled it.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48I'll take a point from you, sir, then we'll go on. Yes.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50Man in the check shirt.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52A lot of people are linking immigration to terrorism.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Not all immigrants are terrorists, we know that.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57APPLAUSE
0:33:57 > 0:34:03But I don't want to link the immigration argument to terrorism.
0:34:04 > 0:34:06The country cannot cope.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09The infrastructure, the NHS, housing,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12it's that that cannot cope with the immigrants.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14- We cannot cope.- All right.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16Thank you very much. I want to go on.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18APPLAUSE I want to go on.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21Because I don't want to stick on Europe for the whole programme.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24I want to carry on. Wait. HE MUMBLES
0:34:24 > 0:34:27Just say where we're going to be next week,
0:34:27 > 0:34:29which is Dundee and then Chelmsford.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32And the way to get into this audience
0:34:32 > 0:34:34and have these arguments is on the screen.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37You can either call or apply to the website.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40Right. A question from Barry Pickard, please.
0:34:40 > 0:34:44Cutting the top rank of income tax from 50p down to 45p
0:34:44 > 0:34:48raised an extra £8 billion from the super-rich.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50Should it now be cut to 40p?
0:34:50 > 0:34:53Should we now cut income tax to 40p because,
0:34:53 > 0:34:56as the Chancellor of the Exchequer claimed,
0:34:56 > 0:35:02it gained £8 billion when they reduced it by 5p. John.
0:35:02 > 0:35:08Within hours of George Osborne making that claim,
0:35:08 > 0:35:13it was refuted by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and many others,
0:35:13 > 0:35:19because what happened was that we saw a huge exercise in tax planning.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22So people delayed certain payments
0:35:22 > 0:35:27and bonuses, etc, until that tax regime was reduced.
0:35:27 > 0:35:30So instead of paying it in the year it was at 50p,
0:35:30 > 0:35:33they then delayed that.
0:35:33 > 0:35:38So we had an artificial low one year and an artificial high the next.
0:35:38 > 0:35:42The IFS has said that over the next five-year period, actually,
0:35:42 > 0:35:47it will cost us, they say, 360 million. Something like that.
0:35:47 > 0:35:52So the reduction didn't gain us anything, it's cost us everything.
0:35:52 > 0:35:58My view is that the wealthy, the corporations and others,
0:35:58 > 0:36:01should pay their taxes, pay a fair rate of tax
0:36:01 > 0:36:03and shoulder the burden the rest of us do.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06APPLAUSE
0:36:08 > 0:36:11OK. As Shadow Chancellor,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13what rate of tax would you have at the top?
0:36:13 > 0:36:17We oppose 45p and we would put it back to 50p and leave it at that.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20- No higher?- No, leave it at that.
0:36:20 > 0:36:25- I thought you wanted to go to 60 at one point.- That was years ago.
0:36:25 > 0:36:28There is a good point, to be honest.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32This whole debate around income tax, I think, is not the issue.
0:36:32 > 0:36:36The issue is the corporations paying their taxes.
0:36:36 > 0:36:38Look at Google and all the others.
0:36:38 > 0:36:40We need a fair tax system
0:36:40 > 0:36:44and we need to ensure corporations pay their way.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47No-one in this audience would have been able to do a deal
0:36:47 > 0:36:50like Google, where they put off their taxes for the ten years
0:36:50 > 0:36:54and then only pay a tenth of what they should have. That's outrageous.
0:36:54 > 0:36:56The debate is moving onto tax justice,
0:36:56 > 0:36:58rather than issues around income tax.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01APPLAUSE Dominic Rabb.
0:37:05 > 0:37:07First of all, on the tax deficit,
0:37:07 > 0:37:10the difference between tax owed and tax collected,
0:37:10 > 0:37:13it is at its lowest level on record.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16So we have done a huge amount to deal with that problem.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20On tax cutting, when you cut taxes, you spur innovation
0:37:20 > 0:37:23and jobs growth, and that brings in revenue.
0:37:23 > 0:37:25In principle, it's a good thing.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28But for me, the focus would be on low and middle incomes.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31If you look at what we have done since 2010,
0:37:31 > 0:37:35those earning £10,000-£15,000, lowish incomes,
0:37:35 > 0:37:39are paying 60% less tax than in 2010.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42If you are a millionaire, you are paying 12.4% more tax.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45I think those tax cuts are a good example of something that is good
0:37:45 > 0:37:47for the economy and good for our society.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51When I look at Labour, the first tax policy
0:37:51 > 0:37:54they have come out with is raising the basic rate of tax.
0:37:54 > 0:37:56You're talking about people on £11,000.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58For the Labour Party,
0:37:58 > 0:38:01raising tax is the closest thing they have to religion.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04It's not just bad for enterprise and jobs but also bad for society.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06APPLAUSE
0:38:06 > 0:38:09- Am I wrong about the basic rate? - Be serious.
0:38:09 > 0:38:13We've not said about increasing the basic rate.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17What I've said is that we are not focusing on income tax.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20You are misleading the audience.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23Jeremy Corbyn has said crystal clear that he wants to raise
0:38:23 > 0:38:25- the basic rate of tax. - No, he hasn't.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29- Be honest about it. - Be straight about this.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32We've said consistently on the 45p rate
0:38:32 > 0:38:34it was a mistake to reduce it from 50p,
0:38:34 > 0:38:37and we have also said we are not interested
0:38:37 > 0:38:39in increasing the basic rate of tax.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43What we're interested in is collecting taxes from corporations
0:38:43 > 0:38:46and making sure there is a fair taxation system.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48That is the quickest U-turn in opposition I have ever seen.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51- You're making it up as you go along. - Jermaine.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54I agree with John's point about the corporations.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57I think that issue definitely needs to be addressed.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00It's also probably naive to think
0:39:00 > 0:39:05if we reduced the level of tax from 45p down to 40p,
0:39:05 > 0:39:09that in turn would create more money,
0:39:09 > 0:39:13as that figure tried to put across.
0:39:13 > 0:39:19But, look. I think most people are quite happy to pay their way
0:39:19 > 0:39:22to support our sectors.
0:39:22 > 0:39:24Our sectors, for me, are struggling.
0:39:24 > 0:39:29Teachers, our schools, our NHS are bursting at the seams.
0:39:29 > 0:39:34We need to raise money for those sectors, to support them.
0:39:34 > 0:39:38If that means the rate of tax has to be pushed up to 50p, then it does.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41- APPLAUSE - It is as simple as that.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43OK. Louise Bours.
0:39:45 > 0:39:47These kind of questions always confuse me.
0:39:47 > 0:39:49I don't know about people sitting in the audience and at home,
0:39:49 > 0:39:52but when you hear Conservatives and Labour just argue,
0:39:52 > 0:39:55they are so determined that each is right.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59- Doesn't Ukip believe it's right? - They never do that!
0:39:59 > 0:40:01What I would like to see...
0:40:01 > 0:40:05We have the most complex tax system, I think, in the world.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08It's tens of thousands of pages long, our tax system.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10I would like it simplified.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13I'd like to take people on minimum wage out of tax
0:40:13 > 0:40:16and National Insurance altogether.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18I don't think they should be paying tax and National Insurance
0:40:18 > 0:40:21if you're earning the minimum wage. That would be a help.
0:40:21 > 0:40:26We have to target those who make avoiding tax a profession.
0:40:26 > 0:40:31We all know who those are, the big corporations.
0:40:31 > 0:40:38I would like to see a real will within the Government to go after
0:40:38 > 0:40:41those big corporations so they pay their fair share.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44It can never be right in a society where we have people on minimum wage
0:40:44 > 0:40:46paying tax and National Insurance,
0:40:46 > 0:40:49and we have the likes of Google and Starbucks
0:40:49 > 0:40:51and the rest of them paying nothing.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54To do that, you have to have international agreements.
0:40:54 > 0:40:59You voted against the European Union and those international agreements.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02- Hang on. Of course... - APPLAUSE
0:41:02 > 0:41:04Hang on, ladies and gentlemen.
0:41:04 > 0:41:07Do you want the European Union having a hold over your taxes?
0:41:07 > 0:41:11You blocked country by country reporting!
0:41:11 > 0:41:15- You voted against it consistently! - John, I listen to it every week.
0:41:15 > 0:41:19They want tax harmonisation across the European Union.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22No. You voted against country by country reporting.
0:41:22 > 0:41:27Can you just answer the question John has put to you?
0:41:27 > 0:41:30You voted against country by country reporting,
0:41:30 > 0:41:34so we could identify how much tax should be paid in each country.
0:41:34 > 0:41:40We voted, and we always vote and will continue to vote against
0:41:40 > 0:41:43anything that hands any further powers
0:41:43 > 0:41:46to the Commission and to the European Union.
0:41:46 > 0:41:50- It didn't. It gave powers to us. - No, it didn't. Read the thing.
0:41:50 > 0:41:53Labour MEPs always read them in such a vague way.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56This is going nowhere fast. You in the front.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58Then I'll come to you, Zoe. The man here in the front.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00I've got some advice for the Chancellor.
0:42:00 > 0:42:04Cut Iain Duncan Smith, save the country a fortune
0:42:04 > 0:42:08and you could have a promotion on the way, Dominic.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11That's a generous offer but I will respectfully decline.
0:42:11 > 0:42:12Zoe Williams. Then I'll come to you.
0:42:12 > 0:42:16This chap really hates Iain Duncan Smith so I'm with you.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19To return to the question,
0:42:19 > 0:42:21what I find worrying about George Osborne
0:42:21 > 0:42:23and his £8 billion figure
0:42:23 > 0:42:26is that I don't think he made a mistake.
0:42:26 > 0:42:27I think he knew that wasn't true.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31We seem to be living through a post-truth politics,
0:42:31 > 0:42:37where there is no onus upon them to say what is actually true any more.
0:42:37 > 0:42:40I would really like to see him held to account more on that.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42You can't say "We saved £8 billion"
0:42:42 > 0:42:46when you know it is just deferred tax from one year to the next,
0:42:46 > 0:42:48and you really should be held up on it.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52On the basic level of income tax, it's a really blunt tool.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55Most people on low income who are taken out of income tax,
0:42:55 > 0:42:59that money was clawed back through reductions in tax credits.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03The people who really won from the raising of the minimum threshold
0:43:03 > 0:43:06were those on middle and high incomes.
0:43:06 > 0:43:10Again, there is a huge amount of deliberate mendacity which
0:43:10 > 0:43:13makes us all think, "I don't know who is telling the truth."
0:43:13 > 0:43:16The fact is they are not telling the truth often enough.
0:43:16 > 0:43:18OK. The woman, here.
0:43:18 > 0:43:21If George Osborne did save £8 billion,
0:43:21 > 0:43:24can he not use it to vaccinate our children against meningitis B?
0:43:24 > 0:43:27APPLAUSE Dominic Rabb.
0:43:29 > 0:43:33Look, there are huge pressures on the public finances.
0:43:33 > 0:43:36We've cut the deficit by half as a proportion of GDP
0:43:36 > 0:43:38but there's still a way to go.
0:43:38 > 0:43:40Which is a short way of saying it is one of those things
0:43:40 > 0:43:43you would love to do if you could but there are so many other
0:43:43 > 0:43:45campaigns and pressure groups looking to try
0:43:45 > 0:43:47and find ways to use that money.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old at home,
0:43:50 > 0:43:53and I know the fear and concern people have around it.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56It's something we'd love to be able to do if we had the money,
0:43:56 > 0:43:58and who knows, with...
0:43:58 > 0:44:02Your three-year-old and one-year-old will be vaccinated by next year.
0:44:02 > 0:44:03My eight and nine-year-olds won't.
0:44:03 > 0:44:09All I'm saying is as a parent, I totally understand the concern.
0:44:09 > 0:44:12You cannot fund these things in the NHS
0:44:12 > 0:44:15unless you've got a growing, vibrant economy.
0:44:15 > 0:44:19Do you anticipate further cuts in the Budget in three weeks?
0:44:19 > 0:44:22I can't pre-empt the Chancellor.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25We've got to make sure we have stable public finances,
0:44:25 > 0:44:29we continue on the stable path, and when we've got room to do it,
0:44:29 > 0:44:31we invest in vital things,
0:44:31 > 0:44:34whether it's meningitis or other parts of the NHS,
0:44:34 > 0:44:37and we make sure people have more money in their pocket,
0:44:37 > 0:44:39particularly low and middle-income workers.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42I'll take a couple more points and we'll go on to another. You, sir.
0:44:42 > 0:44:44The reality is we're all going to have to pay more tax.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47Why aren't the politicians more honest about it?
0:44:47 > 0:44:49We're in this race for the bottom.
0:44:49 > 0:44:51Everybody wants to cut tax, we're living longer,
0:44:51 > 0:44:52there's more care needed,
0:44:52 > 0:44:55people will be missing out because of all the cuts,
0:44:55 > 0:44:58particularly in Liverpool in social care...packages.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00We're going to have to pay more tax.
0:45:00 > 0:45:02Let's be grown up about it
0:45:02 > 0:45:04and let's have the politicians admitting it
0:45:04 > 0:45:05and let's have a rational debate.
0:45:05 > 0:45:07And the man behind you.
0:45:07 > 0:45:09APPLAUSE
0:45:09 > 0:45:10You, sir.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13Am I wrong in believing that Labour, for 12.5 years
0:45:13 > 0:45:17of a 13-year government, had a higher tax rate at 40%?
0:45:17 > 0:45:19Is that not true?
0:45:19 > 0:45:23- Now you're trying to be... - Why do you only have 40%?
0:45:23 > 0:45:26- Now you're trying to be the poorer man's best friend.- Yeah.
0:45:26 > 0:45:28I was on the back benches then
0:45:28 > 0:45:30and I used to put alternative budgets up every year.
0:45:30 > 0:45:32- So it's not your fault. - Let me finish.
0:45:32 > 0:45:35I used to put up alternative budgets every year
0:45:35 > 0:45:36and in that was included a 50p rate.
0:45:36 > 0:45:38There you are, you've got the answer.
0:45:38 > 0:45:41The argument then was that that struck the right balance.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43And the point that this gentleman made
0:45:43 > 0:45:45about "We're all going to have to pay more taxes",
0:45:45 > 0:45:48the issue for most people is they...
0:45:48 > 0:45:51People don't jib against paying taxes
0:45:51 > 0:45:53if they think the system is fair.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56None of us now think the system is fair
0:45:56 > 0:46:00because we're seeing the wealthiest and the corporations
0:46:00 > 0:46:04laugh all the way to the bank by manipulating the tax system.
0:46:04 > 0:46:07I'll just take a couple more quick questions
0:46:07 > 0:46:09before we come to the end of the programme.
0:46:09 > 0:46:11We've got ten minutes or so
0:46:11 > 0:46:13and I think both these ones are worth taking.
0:46:13 > 0:46:15Alan King first of all, please. Alan King.
0:46:15 > 0:46:21When do we start to see Donald Trump as a serious politician?
0:46:21 > 0:46:23LAUGHTER
0:46:23 > 0:46:26When do we stop seeing Trump as a joke
0:46:26 > 0:46:28and see him as a serious politician?
0:46:30 > 0:46:32What do you think?
0:46:32 > 0:46:36I don't know when we start seeing him as a serious human being.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40Look, we see him as a serious threat right now
0:46:40 > 0:46:42and if, by serious politician,
0:46:42 > 0:46:44you mean serious threat to the entire world,
0:46:44 > 0:46:46then I say start thinking that now.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50The problem is there's nothing we can do about it so, you know,
0:46:50 > 0:46:54it's that kind of impotent anxiety that isn't going to get us anywhere.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58It's... It really irritates me cos everybody says, you know,
0:46:58 > 0:47:00"This is populist politics, left-wing populism
0:47:00 > 0:47:02"and right-wing populism are both the same."
0:47:02 > 0:47:03They're not the same -
0:47:03 > 0:47:05left-wing populism looks like Bernie Sanders
0:47:05 > 0:47:08and wants a democratic socialist life
0:47:08 > 0:47:10where people have more and are happier,
0:47:10 > 0:47:13and right-wing populism looks like a guy who won't distance
0:47:13 > 0:47:16himself from the Klu Klux Klan. So, you know...
0:47:16 > 0:47:18APPLAUSE
0:47:18 > 0:47:19Do you agree with that, Dominic?
0:47:21 > 0:47:23I think that stuff around the Klu Klux Klan
0:47:23 > 0:47:28and refusing to disavow them put him beyond the pale.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30I think that raises a serious question mark
0:47:30 > 0:47:31around his integrity.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34I think I'm also worried about what he might do.
0:47:34 > 0:47:35He's talking about building a wall,
0:47:35 > 0:47:39making the Mexicans pay for it, bringing back torture...
0:47:39 > 0:47:41But the thing is,
0:47:41 > 0:47:43whether you're a left-wing or a right-wing populist,
0:47:43 > 0:47:48you prey on the very seductive vulnerabilities of people.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51You come up with these populist utopian ideas
0:47:51 > 0:47:55but you always, in the end, end up breaking your promises,
0:47:55 > 0:47:56and I think, in the end,
0:47:56 > 0:47:59the American people will be too smart to vote for that.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02- I certainly hope so. - You in the fourth row there, yes.
0:48:02 > 0:48:06I think we need to look at the kind of anger
0:48:06 > 0:48:07that Donald Trump is harnessing,
0:48:07 > 0:48:11but I do agree with Zoe that we should actually consider him
0:48:11 > 0:48:14more of a threat and we should be thinking about whether,
0:48:14 > 0:48:17if he is elected President of the United States,
0:48:17 > 0:48:20whether that is a man that in any way, shape or form
0:48:20 > 0:48:22we want to do any business with.
0:48:22 > 0:48:24And the woman here on the second row.
0:48:24 > 0:48:29Isn't part of the problem that we like democracy until the person
0:48:29 > 0:48:33who democracy elects isn't somebody that we would choose?
0:48:33 > 0:48:36And wouldn't somebody like President Assad or Mugabe...
0:48:36 > 0:48:39We argue that's why you don't have democracy,
0:48:39 > 0:48:41cos you end up with a Trump.
0:48:41 > 0:48:45LAUGHTER Louise Bours, do you agree with her?
0:48:45 > 0:48:48I've agreed with a couple of things the lady said this evening.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50Very insightful.
0:48:50 > 0:48:54Look, I mean, love him or loathe him,
0:48:54 > 0:48:58the people of the Republican Party, they keep voting him through
0:48:58 > 0:49:00and that is democracy.
0:49:00 > 0:49:02Just because we don't like him
0:49:02 > 0:49:05or find his views unpalatable, etc, etc,
0:49:05 > 0:49:08that really, as far as we're concerned in Great Britain,
0:49:08 > 0:49:10has nothing to do with us.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13This election is the United States of America
0:49:13 > 0:49:14and just as we don't want them
0:49:14 > 0:49:18interfering in our democratic process in elections over here,
0:49:18 > 0:49:21we really have no right to interfere in theirs.
0:49:21 > 0:49:23Now, whether he wins the nomination
0:49:23 > 0:49:26and goes forward to the presidential elections,
0:49:26 > 0:49:30we will have to wait and see and then the American people can decide.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32But that's what democracy's all about -
0:49:32 > 0:49:34it doesn't matter whether we like him,
0:49:34 > 0:49:36it's what the American people want,
0:49:36 > 0:49:39and if they're going to vote for him then they will have the government
0:49:39 > 0:49:42and the president that they deserve and that's the important thing.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45Unless we want to have elections like in the European Union
0:49:45 > 0:49:47where you're given a ballot paper...
0:49:47 > 0:49:48Like when we were electing
0:49:48 > 0:49:51the President of the European Parliament,
0:49:51 > 0:49:54we had one candidate and all we had was "yes" on the ballot paper.
0:49:54 > 0:49:58So unless you want elections like that, Donald Trump,
0:49:58 > 0:50:00he is the Republican Party's choice at the moment.
0:50:00 > 0:50:02OK, man up there.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05Are we going to be prepared for the migrant crisis from America?
0:50:05 > 0:50:06LAUGHTER
0:50:06 > 0:50:08- I didn't quite hear that. - What was that?
0:50:08 > 0:50:12Are we going to be prepared for the migrant crisis from America?
0:50:12 > 0:50:16And the man in pink there, I wanted to go to. Yes.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19It's OK Zoe saying that we shouldn't poke around in the politics
0:50:19 > 0:50:22- of America and what Trump's doing but...- I didn't say that.
0:50:22 > 0:50:25..it seems it's OK for us to poke around in the politics
0:50:25 > 0:50:29of the Middle East when a particular leader over there is...
0:50:29 > 0:50:32- Jermaine.- My point is,
0:50:32 > 0:50:37maybe we should poke around in the politics of the United States.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39Jermaine.
0:50:39 > 0:50:43I think it's very worrying to me that Donald Trump is getting
0:50:43 > 0:50:45so far within his political career.
0:50:45 > 0:50:46He comes across to me
0:50:46 > 0:50:50as a person that seems to thrive on people's insecurities
0:50:50 > 0:50:54and weaknesses and I just think, you know, it's easy for us to say,
0:50:54 > 0:50:57"Right, it's not our country and let's not get involved",
0:50:57 > 0:51:00but at some point, we're going to have to deal with America
0:51:00 > 0:51:01over certain subjects,
0:51:01 > 0:51:03so do I want that to be Donald Trump?
0:51:03 > 0:51:06- No, I do not.- We have no choice, though. It's their choice.
0:51:06 > 0:51:10It is their choice, obviously, but that's why I'm saying
0:51:10 > 0:51:13it's so worrying to me that he's getting so far down the line.
0:51:13 > 0:51:16Yeah, nobody's suggesting we intervene in America, Louise,
0:51:16 > 0:51:17we're just saying it's a bad thing.
0:51:17 > 0:51:19You, sir, in the white T-shirt.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22- If he becomes president, what then? - All right, hold on.
0:51:22 > 0:51:24I think the biggest fear for me...
0:51:24 > 0:51:27I think you're absolutely right, it's America's issue, this.
0:51:27 > 0:51:29Bigger fear for me is if Jeremy
0:51:29 > 0:51:32and John's ragtag bunch of socialists get into number ten.
0:51:32 > 0:51:36- I'd agree with that, sir. - John, you maybe want to answer him.
0:51:38 > 0:51:39Thanks for that.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42LAUGHTER
0:51:42 > 0:51:47I think we've got to take Trump seriously and I think it's...
0:51:47 > 0:51:50I find it extremely worrying
0:51:50 > 0:51:52about some of the statements that he's made,
0:51:52 > 0:51:55the instability that he will cause within his own country
0:51:55 > 0:51:59and the instability that he could cause globally.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01It's not interfering in American politics,
0:52:01 > 0:52:04it's completely, of course, up to the American people,
0:52:04 > 0:52:07but as friends of the American people, our closest ally,
0:52:07 > 0:52:13I think as friends we should express our caution and concern about it.
0:52:13 > 0:52:16This is someone who actually could damage - damage -
0:52:16 > 0:52:18international relations overall.
0:52:18 > 0:52:20Why is he so appealing to the Republican voter?
0:52:20 > 0:52:22I think there's a real...
0:52:22 > 0:52:24Within America itself,
0:52:24 > 0:52:28there is a real disaffection about the system overall,
0:52:28 > 0:52:32about how large numbers of people now have had their wages suppressed,
0:52:32 > 0:52:34their public services are collapsing,
0:52:34 > 0:52:36and if you look at the opinion polls,
0:52:36 > 0:52:38there's real anger out there.
0:52:38 > 0:52:42And they're seizing upon Trump as an opportunity to protest
0:52:42 > 0:52:44against the system itself.
0:52:44 > 0:52:49Now, I'm hoping, I'm hoping that as the debate goes on,
0:52:49 > 0:52:53the more exposed that he becomes, that people will then say,
0:52:53 > 0:52:54"This is not for us",
0:52:54 > 0:52:57and that there'll be a vote for a candidate
0:52:57 > 0:52:59who actually will represent all of America
0:52:59 > 0:53:01rather than one small section.
0:53:01 > 0:53:04But I think we do have the opportunity,
0:53:04 > 0:53:06as friends of America, to actually say,
0:53:06 > 0:53:10"This could be damaging to us all and please, please think carefully."
0:53:10 > 0:53:12OK. Last point from you, madam.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14Ah. All I have to say is that really,
0:53:14 > 0:53:18that's why I'd really prefer to stay in Europe,
0:53:18 > 0:53:20cos imagine Donald Trump with Putin.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23And they're the superpowers, aren't they?
0:53:23 > 0:53:28- And there you have a very unsafe planet, really.- OK. Right.
0:53:28 > 0:53:31APPLAUSE
0:53:31 > 0:53:34We'll take a last question from James Yates, please.
0:53:34 > 0:53:35James Yates.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38Should tackling in rugby be banned in schools?
0:53:38 > 0:53:41You write about medicine yourself, do you?
0:53:41 > 0:53:43Yeah, well, just started.
0:53:43 > 0:53:44- What, you've just started?- Yeah.
0:53:44 > 0:53:46- So you know about this issue. - Not really.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48Should tackling rugby...
0:53:48 > 0:53:51Should tackling in rugby be banned in schools?
0:53:51 > 0:53:53We know that there's a policy
0:53:53 > 0:53:55to get millions more children playing rugby.
0:53:55 > 0:53:57Jermaine, you would know about this.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00Initially, when you hear that statement,
0:54:00 > 0:54:03you feel like saying, "Well, it would be almost
0:54:03 > 0:54:05"like banning shooting from playing football."
0:54:05 > 0:54:06If you're playing football,
0:54:06 > 0:54:09like, kids aren't allowed to shoot no more.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11LAUGHTER
0:54:11 > 0:54:13I thought you meant something quite different.
0:54:13 > 0:54:17It is, it's like... Oh, yeah, sorry!
0:54:17 > 0:54:18Yeah, wrong way.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21No, it's almost like saying to a young footballer,
0:54:21 > 0:54:23"You can't shoot at goal no more",
0:54:23 > 0:54:28and I just think that rugby, part of it is tackling.
0:54:28 > 0:54:33And granted, you know, the injuries that can be sustained aren't great
0:54:33 > 0:54:34and what I think we should do is...
0:54:34 > 0:54:36You know, when I was at school, there was parts
0:54:36 > 0:54:39where you was on the school field and someone would have a shot,
0:54:39 > 0:54:42probably someone who wasn't very good, and it would hit
0:54:42 > 0:54:44somebody in the face and they'd have a bloody nose.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47So what they made us do was start playing with a sponge football
0:54:47 > 0:54:48or a smaller football.
0:54:48 > 0:54:49The thing with rugby,
0:54:49 > 0:54:52I'm sure they'd do what they do with American football -
0:54:52 > 0:54:56you can play tag, have, like, a flag hanging out of your shorts
0:54:56 > 0:54:59and they can take that off, or start wearing protective gear
0:54:59 > 0:55:02and then as you get older, the layers of protective gear come off.
0:55:02 > 0:55:04So you would like that to happen?
0:55:04 > 0:55:06You don't want 16-, 17-, 18-year-olds
0:55:06 > 0:55:08tackling each other and...
0:55:08 > 0:55:11I think it's important that we obviously don't end up with, yeah,
0:55:11 > 0:55:1516-, 17-year-olds who have got major issues through getting
0:55:15 > 0:55:18concussion through the early stages of their career.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21So, yeah, I think I would like to see some type of protective gear
0:55:21 > 0:55:25for these youngsters to wear until they get to that professional stage.
0:55:25 > 0:55:27Dominic. We'll have to go quickly around the table on this.
0:55:27 > 0:55:31This is an issue. 70 doctors and scientists called for this ban.
0:55:31 > 0:55:32No.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35I think we should try and make all these contact sports a bit safer
0:55:35 > 0:55:37but I don't think we should be banning them.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40We need to be encouraging youngsters to do more sports.
0:55:40 > 0:55:41It's good for their health,
0:55:41 > 0:55:43it's also good for other life skills...
0:55:45 > 0:55:47- OK, very quickly...- Mm-hm.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49We have the same debate around boxing.
0:55:49 > 0:55:51I'm a trustee of Fight For Peace in Newham
0:55:51 > 0:55:54and it gets a lot of youngsters very difficult to reach
0:55:54 > 0:55:57into the club to do the competitive martial arts or boxing,
0:55:57 > 0:56:00but then it also works on their numeracy, their literacy.
0:56:00 > 0:56:02I got involved mentoring
0:56:02 > 0:56:04and all I'm saying is these kind of sports have got the potential
0:56:04 > 0:56:06and the power to reach certain youngsters,
0:56:06 > 0:56:09particularly from tough backgrounds, that nothing else does.
0:56:09 > 0:56:12- So let's not get rid of that. - We have to be very brief.
0:56:12 > 0:56:15- I don't know... - Who's most likely to be brief?
0:56:15 > 0:56:16Yes, you can be brief.
0:56:16 > 0:56:19I remember interviewing the academic who did this research
0:56:19 > 0:56:20when she first started it.
0:56:20 > 0:56:22She's a public health epidemiologist and I was like,
0:56:22 > 0:56:24"What do you want to do rugby for?
0:56:24 > 0:56:26"It's just a weird thing posh people play."
0:56:26 > 0:56:29And she said, "You've got no idea how dangerous this is.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32"If you knew how dangerous it was and how often people
0:56:32 > 0:56:35"are brain damaged by it, there's no way you would let your children
0:56:35 > 0:56:37"anywhere near it." I think all these arguments -
0:56:37 > 0:56:40"Oh, it's really good for you to get into the fresh air..."
0:56:40 > 0:56:42You don't need to get a concussion in the fresh air,
0:56:42 > 0:56:45there are loads of ways to get fit, not concussing yourself.
0:56:45 > 0:56:47Shouldn't it be left to the parents, not Government to decide?
0:56:47 > 0:56:49If parents knew how dangerous it was,
0:56:49 > 0:56:50they would vote with their feet.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53John, can I ask you in a phrase to say
0:56:53 > 0:56:55whether rugby tackling should be banned?
0:56:55 > 0:56:59I think we need to take into account what the doctors are now warning us
0:56:59 > 0:57:00and I think on Jermaine's point,
0:57:00 > 0:57:04you change the techniques, you look at enhanced protections.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07In that way, you preserve the sport, but you don't have the risk as well.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11- Louise.- The benefits outweigh the risks, in my opinion.
0:57:11 > 0:57:14It teaches our kids team-manship, competitiveness,
0:57:14 > 0:57:17discipline, respect...
0:57:17 > 0:57:20I think all team games are very positive and remember,
0:57:20 > 0:57:22we want to tackle childhood obesity.
0:57:22 > 0:57:25That will be a big killer, far bigger killer to our kids
0:57:25 > 0:57:27than injuries within sports, so let's support it.
0:57:27 > 0:57:29One point from our audience.
0:57:29 > 0:57:31Somebody who hasn't spoken before. Yes.
0:57:31 > 0:57:34I appreciate and understand what the whole panel have said.
0:57:34 > 0:57:38However, with many things within school,
0:57:38 > 0:57:41why aren't the children being asked what they think?
0:57:41 > 0:57:45Thank you very much, everybody, we've got to stop. Time's up.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47We're in Dundee next week, as I said earlier on.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50We have the Conservative leader in Scotland, Ruth Davidson,
0:57:50 > 0:57:52with us on the panel
0:57:52 > 0:57:54and the SNP's Deputy First Minister, John Swinney,
0:57:54 > 0:57:56on the panel as well.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58The week after that, we're going to be in Chelmsford,
0:57:58 > 0:58:00no idea who we're going to have on the panel then.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03But if you want to come to Dundee or Chelmsford,
0:58:03 > 0:58:04go to our website or call...
0:58:06 > 0:58:08If you're listening to this on Radio 5 Live,
0:58:08 > 0:58:11as you know, this debate carries on through the night
0:58:11 > 0:58:12until one or two or three,
0:58:12 > 0:58:14I don't know when it stops in the morning -
0:58:14 > 0:58:16a lot to talk about.
0:58:16 > 0:58:18That goes on on Question Time Extra Time.
0:58:18 > 0:58:22But here in Liverpool, my thanks to our panel and to all of you
0:58:22 > 0:58:25who came to take part in this edition of Question Time.
0:58:25 > 0:58:28Until next Thursday, from all of us here, goodnight.